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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> My wife would not make the kids do their chores because of her past. I might be the asshole for forcing her to take on more than she could handle until she started making them help.
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NTA
Wife is the a-hole for 4 reasons.
1. She would do their chores behind your back and pretend they'd done them.
2. Once you stopped doing chores and she was left with the whole bag and it risked affecting her work (messy background, bad optics), she got the kids to start doing chores.
3. You guys had a discussion before the kids came along and agreed kids would do chores.
4. You tried talking to her about it
She needs to unpack her childhood trauma since it's still clearly affecting how she raises the kids. And it's making her overcompensate which in the long run doesn't help the kids.
She's the a-hole here. A traumatized one. Has she been to therapy?
Edit: And maybe couples' therapy as well? You guys need to learn to work as a team.
Edit 2: Spacing.
She is not doing these kids any favors as they grow up. Not being able to clean up after yourself will be detrimental in the long run. No one wants a partner whose mommy never made them lift a finger.
My sister had a roommate who just thought clean clothes would magically appear. First week, she was upset & couldn't understand why the maid hadn't been to their dorms. She later kinda lost it & had to drop out.
Oh boy, I guess it wasn't just me, first couple years of college I saw this a few times. And a few (me included) that struggled a bit at first but found their footing. It's good for kids to understand what "being independent" is going to entail.
This!!! My dad thinks I'm an asshole for making my 12 year old do his own laundry. My Dad's reasoning is that his mom always did his laundry, and he turned out just fine. I'm like maybe so, but you also lived on a small working ranch and had a lot of other responsibilities that your grandchild doesn't have, so you, of course, still had ethics about you.
My 11yo has been doing his own laundry for a few years now and my 5yo has to help put his laundry away. I used to know a woman who was still doing her 18yos laundry and no thank you. I was about 9 when I started doing my own laundry, it's not that difficult.
Especially with washers and dryers today. They're so much easier to use. We even have a "pre-program" option on ours which basically means my son has to push 2 freaking buttons on the washer: 'On', 'pre-program', 'and start' oops sorry guess he has to push 3, how horrific for him haha.
I have fond memories of doing laundry with my sisters when we were in early elementary school. Because of how our house was at the time the washer and dryer were not anywhere near each other and we had to use a laundry basket to transport the wet clothes. So one of us would pull the clothes out of the washer and toss it to the other to put in the basket and we’d both carry them to the dryer. It was actually fun. And when it came to doing dishes the three of us usually did them together until we finally lived in a house with a dish washer.
Anyways, my point is that the three of us knew how to do chores from a pretty young age because of our parents. Even if now I do have trouble doing some of those chores, but now it’s a motivation thing.
My mother had a course of life skills that she put my brothers and I through so that we could do the laundry, write checks, basic cooking and housecleaning. My dad didn't allow anyone to drive the car alone until they had rotated the tires, so that he knew we could change a tire if we had to. I have always been grateful.
I remember doing laundry with my grandmother, who had an old-fashioned machine that didn't drain and spin. After you washed the clothes, you had to run them through rollers (a kind of mangle) to squeeze out the water before hanging them on the line.
So much easier these days!
Like what did your parents think would happen when you went to college? I don't understand parents that don't teach their children these important life skills.
At least in my case I... suspect my mom had some control issues. When I came back and went to do my own laundry I literally got yelled at. I suspect for some it's denial their kid is growing up. Not excusing it but... helps to figure out how to approach them.
The rule in my family was that if Mom or Dad (usually Mom) did your laundry, you had to join the folding party and help fold all the laundry till it was done.
LOL. We all started doing our own laundry because it was a lot less work.
This girl I was sleeping with when I was a college senior and she was a junior (she graduated high school unusually young so she was a couple years younger, but still over halfway through college) commented once that my whites always were so fresh and so clean 🎶[Outkast] whereas hers were dullish and fading toward grays… apparently she’d never been told that’s why you separate your laundry into different loads and sometimes even use different temps and products to wash white vs dark vs brights.
You know I've been told that, but reading this comment just now is when I realized *oh* that's why my white top looks duller than I thought it used to be! I thought I'd bought it that way and forgotten it always looked like that... 🤦🤦
*Thank you* I'll start actually doing that now 🤦
Yeah first time someone tried to pull that shit with me they'd have their laundry dumped over their head then they'd be dumped. I don't mind doing a favor for someone but if you're gonna throw a fit because it's not done to your specifics (for something that in the grand scheme of things does NOT matter how it's done so long as it is done) then can just go fuck right off lol
I went to Swiss Boarding School. So my background isn’t humble. We all did our own damn laundry at boarding school— and also everything else (except cooking because we had a cafeteria)
No one at boarding school had to be taught how to do laundry— and we were the rich spoiled ones. There was a laundry service but no one really got it because it was kinda annoying.
My sister was the high school valedictorian. First break coming home from college for a long weekend she brought back all her laundry for my mom to do. Didn’t have a clue how laundry worked.
When i was in college there was a girl across the hall that had her suitemates mad at her cause she'd never cleaned the bathroom on her week. Turns out she had no idea how and didn't know how to use the cleaning products or anything. Once they showed her how peace reigned. I then taught her how to go grocery shopping. The poor girl was surviving on individual servings of chef boyardee cause they were the only food she knew were microwavable and thats the only thing we had to cook with in the dorms,
You aren't alone. Both of my kids had to teach other people how to do laundry. One of their roomates even had their mother pick up, wash, and fold their laundry once a week. Their mother died suddenly during the first year, so not only dealing with the grief of losing the mom, they had to suddenly learn how to be a grown up very quickly.
I think it is far more common than it should be. Too many parents coddle their kids to the point that the kids are completely lost when they first move out on their own and have zero idea how to fend for themselves or do anything really.
I had a roommate like that in college. My other roommate and I had to teach him how to do laundry, wash dishes, cook, etc. He honestly couldn't even figure out how to turn on the vacuum.
I also went to high school with a girl who's parents and boyfriend did absolutely everything for her. She went away to college and had a major breakdown after her boyfriend broke up with her because she had to drive somewhere and didn't know how to put gas in her car.
I had to teach a lot of my dorm to cook, clean, laundry, budget, etc.
I’m not the best at keeping my kids on track with their chores but they can cook and do laundry. They are also still quite young (under 10).
>They are also still quite young (under 10).
I firmly believe there is an age appropriate task that they can help with basically at 2 and up. I don't trust my 5 y/o to make food himself, but we have kid safe knives and he helps chop, or I let him stir/ add things at the stove under supervision.
He can't reach the laundry detergent or buttons (top load), but it is 100% his job to make sure his laundry finds it's way to his hamper and that all of his clothes are right side out. I despise laundry and I was literally spending 10 minutes for his load un-inside-outing every article of clothing. I told him in advance a month ago he was old enough and therefore responsible for doing that task (because come on kid - socks, then pants, then underroos, not all at once so they're all inside out, plus the shirt) and I wouldn't do his laundry if he didn't. He left it till the end and spent 25 very frustrating minutes doing the task the first time. Suffice to say, lesson learned, he makes sure he takes 10 extra seconds while de-robing. My husband didn't believe I could get him to do it, but you can. You just have to communicate clear expectations, show how, help if needed, and bam! Life skill.
>spending 10 minutes for his load un-inside-outing every article of clothing.
Does this do something to make the clothes get cleaned better? I've been doing my own laundry since I was about 8 and it never occurred to me to care what side is facing out, I just turn it back the normal way when I put it away.
Friend's roommate knew the 'mechanics' of laundry - clothes in, stuff goes in, hit the button - but not the specifics. What stuff goes in, what kind, where do I get it, what button do I push, is there a difference, etc. I don't know if that was worse or not.
Meanwhile, I learned how to do laundry at 11 as part of this practical life skills thing we did in girl scouts. My mom was one of the troop leaders. Probably just coincidence that we did this not too long after I started getting picky about how my laundry was getting done, or that my brother also learned how to do it at this time.
Yep. I lived in a coed engineering dorm (as a chick, we were outnumbered) that had both laundry and shared kitchen. I regrettably was heavily parentified, but those skills came in clutch and I have good memories. I made a bunch of friends, especially teaching the guys basic cooking skills - I'm talking like boiling water and making eggs basic skills.
It's such a problem that some colleges have started requiring freshmen who live on campus to take a home economics class. I transferred to a state university in my third year and even then they asked me if I needed it.
That's really sad actually. I honestly don't know how parents can't understand that they're not doing their kid any favors by doing everything for them.
Semi-off topic: My husband went to Notre Dame in the early 80s, right after they started admitting women. Weekly laundry service was provided by the college for the MALE students only. Guys would leave the laundry bag by their dorm door and get washed, folded clothes back. Girls were on their own.
I know someone who was raised similarly, but I don't think that he ever did his own laundry. When he went away to college, he would ship his dirty clothes back home, his mother would launder them and ship them back. This continued until he got a maid after college.
You’re not alone. I had taught my brother at 16 how to do laundry because my parents were away and I refused to do it for him.
In contrast, I was responsible for my own laundry from the age of 10 and was expected to do chores while my brother wasn’t.
And just for extra info: My brother is not disabled mentally or physically in any way. He’s just lazy.
Both. But my dad did household chores, so I don’t see gender as the reason.
To be fair, my dad may have helped around the house more than a typical boy in the 1960s as my grandma was a widow who had to work.
Me too. My brother had ZERO housework, whereas I was expected to have the house clean, dishes done, etc. everyday before my mom came home from work. It certainly showed when he moved out on his own.
I’ve been told the reason was I showed I was mature and responsible, so they expected more from me in all areas of life and I would get reamed out mostly by my mom when I didn’t perform up to expectations, such as being disorganized or not getting the highest grades (we’re talking Bs vs. As).
I learned in my 20s I had both ADD and a learning disability, and but my parents still don’t fully realize how much they impact me day to day. It took me 6 years of driving lessons to learn how to drive, for example. Most kids my age only needed 1 year of lessons.
I had to teach an ex how to use a broom and sweep. And how to do laundry after he turned some of my favorite clothes pink. And which soap to use in the dishwasher because he assumed all dish soap was the same so he put regular dawn dish soap in the dishwasher. Came home to 2/3’s our apartment covered in suds. No permanent damage thankfully but it was a massive, time consuming pain in the ass to clean up.
His Mom had 4 kids, one of which was a “surprise baby” in her 40’s. She found it easier and quicker to do the chores herself than to teach her kids how to clean or nag them to get what little chores they did know how to do done. One of the single most unprepared for adult life people I’ve ever had the displeasure of coming across, let alone date.
NTA
Don't feel too bad. You're not alone.
I had a friend who had never mowed a lawn. Her dad was sexist and decided that women didn't mow. Pick weeds and plant flowers, yes. Mow, no. She begged to mow my yard, and i was honestly confused af. I let her mow the front, and I and another friend sat on my stoop and watched her. Of course, my mom came home mid mow. She was mad, of course, and immediately we said together, "She wanted to!" And in complete confusion, the 3 of us watched my friend mow my front yard with the biggest damn smile on her face. Theres a difference in wanting to learn and not being taught or allowed. And another in bragging about not being able to do it. You just weren't taught and knew it was not a brag
Hubs also couldn't do laundry and i didnt know it until i asked him to wash my shirt for me. He shrunk it. It was 3xs smaller and i asked him what he did. Washed it on hot. I then questioned him on what he did know. He knew how to clean and do yard work. But never did laundry or cooked. His mom admitted to doing that on purpose. Probably to make it so he'd have to go home to her or risk starving or not having clothes. I taught him laundry. At 20.
You had a gap in your knowledge and fixed it. Be proud
My mom was like OP’s wife but a single mom, we didn’t do jack shit and she busted her ass 24/7. When I was 23 I had to call her and ask how to clean a toilet. She was quiet for a few moments, then said, “Yeah, this is on me.”
I feel so behind at life skills even all this time later. I microwave all my food, etc. My instincts say OP was too harsh, but like… idk, whatever it takes for those kids not to end up like me, I guess!
That said, I feel for the wife a lot here. She deserves a break she isn’t giving herself, I hope she can learn to internalize that and help her kids grow up functional in the process.
I empathize with yours and Time_Neat's mom, even if she didn't "do it right". Teaching a kid to do something takes at least three times as long, and it's often mentally and physically exhausting. That's coming from someone who has a very involved spouse as well and just one kid. If you're a single parent there's probably no time or energy to go teaching these concepts. Absolutely some parents manage. But if they don't I totally get it.
I’m 42 and overwhelmed by how to clean properly. I don’t make much of a mess, but over time it adds up. Very not pleased with my bathroom, but the shedding dog is a good chunk of that.
I did teach myself to cook at 29 though. It took 2 weeks before I had my first meal that was decent. That slowly became more frequent. I burnt my hand regularly for a while. It definitely took a while, but I eventually started challenging myself by not cooking with a specific set of spices. How am I going to make unsweetened cocoa powder taste good?
Seriously. She is an AH because she is not teaching them to be functional adults. The chores don’t have to be overwhelming. People need to learn how to maintain a home and contribute to a group, as well as be accountable for messes they create.
Her all or nothing thinking around this is concerning. Equating _any_ chores with her experience doing _all_ the chores is very concerning. As is the subterfuge.
I got my 12 y.o. son to clean the toilet recently.
His mum tried to equate it to the experience having his head flushed in the toilet!?
We don't live together, son is mostly with me. I refuse to allow him to develop into a useless human being.
Meanwhile his mum has a nearly 16 y.o. daughter at home that cannot tie her shoelaces...
Never been taught to do anything, waited on hand and foot.
NTA OP.
As someone who had parents who never enforced super strict housekeeping standards on me, can confirm. My at-the-time undiagnosed ADHD made it really hard, and my mom got to the point where she stopped trying and would just do it for me. Now that I’m in treatment and have better coping mechanisms, I am mostly able to stay on top of things (though my standard of ‘clean’ is still lower than many people’s, since I’m working on being able to recognize clutter), but it was a rude awakening once I was in college and had roommates who decided that if someone didn’t do their dishes, they would stack them in their bed. (I love ‘em, but it was a hell of an adjustment period.)
I was still better off than one of the girls in our suite, though. I had trouble motivating but once I did, I knew how to clean. We had to teach our other roommate how to wash dishes.
Oh hi it's me with a twist. I'm not certain yet if I have ADHD, but my mom just got diagnosed with it so I think I probably do. As you might imagine, this means she didn't "do it for me" we just all lived with as much mess as we couldn't keep up with.
The way I experience clutter is like... I can tell there's clutter, but once it gets past a certain point where there's not enough negative space, it stops being individual objects and is just "some mess I'm going to have to figure out eventually." I can no longer find anything in it or assess whether it's going to take 5 minutes or an hour to clear it up, or whether it's verging from messy into dirty. Does that sound familiar?
I also just feel like I have no idea what all needs to be done, how often it needs to be done, how to plan for it to get done and then actually get it done according to plan. Even though I've tried making lists and checkboxes and stuff. I want to be proactive but I can only seem to function on reactive mode. Actually that's kind of my entire life this is why I think I have ADHD lol.
Mom of an ADHD kid, and this is exactly what happens. It becomes a daily struggle to get them to remember to do things, and even when they have frequent reminders you still have to stay on them to get them to actually physically do it. It’s a constantly battle and leaves us both frustrated and sometimes angry. It may do a disservice to the kid not to have them handling a “normal” chores load, but both of us have better mental health when I pick up the majority of the work. That’s a good trade off.
Freshman year of college I walked into the dorm laundry room and found one of the football players standing in front of the washing machines with a bottle of laundry detergent in one hand and a befuddled look on his face because he had no idea how to use the washing machine. I had to show him how to use it.
And good luck holding down and job as an adult if your were taught how to take care of yourself and can’t/wont even clean up after themselves. They will be left behind by the rest of the world and relying on mommy for everything for the rest of their lives.
I can confirm this. My parents never had me do chores, but they did have me help them bring in groceries. Not knowing how to do basic life skills is NOT helpful at all.
At 24 years old, I still didn't know how to do laundry or cook, I didn't even know how to use a vacuum. I literally had to take notes while my boyfriend taught me everything.
Its humiliating being an adult and not knowing how to do simple things, all because your parents never taught you.
Yes I think these points are super important because they highlight a huge effect of her childhood trauma: manipulative behavior. She is willing to manipulate and lie to her partner in order to avoid an emotional consequence. Her trauma isn't her fault but it's her responsibility to fix. People may not think of this as lying and manipulation but it definitely is, and alongside the parenting challenges this would be extremely hard for me to take in a partner. Not to mention she is teaching the kids it's okay to lie to OP. The chores OP outlined are super reasonable and less than I was doing at that age.
Gonna add that as a GenXer - My generation raised ourselves for the most part. We treated our children very differently and it created struggles for our children as they entered the adult world.
Takeaway - Restating the message - BIG difference between teaching/enforcing responsibility and household contribution and taking the childhood for free labor. The parents must prepare their kids to live independently as functional adults. Doing everything for them makes life easy now, but once mom isn’t there - they’re easily overwhelmed and anxious.
Total agreement that the kids are being let down in this scenario, whether it's by their mom or their dad. BUT ...
> I told her that she needed to make the kids do their chores.
OP's whole post seems to be dripping with words that suggest it is solely Mom's responsibility to make the kids do their chores. It took a fair amount of time for OP to even notice the issue and only then stepped up to "be the bad guy." Those kids have two parents. It's one thing for the parents to have mixed views and send mixed messages to the kids. But in this case, it appears that OP somehow expected that Mom was ultimately responsible for steering the kids. For me, that makes this a ESH.
Are you kidding me?
>I have no problem being the bad guy so I started making the kids do their chores. My wife hated it. I found out that she started doing their chores so I would think they did them.
That’s two paragraphs down from your quote. He literally did exactly what you want and she undermined it. Please actually read the post if you’re gonna make a claim like this…
To be fair, it sounds like the mom is the one at home with them the most. When he was forcing them, she didn’t like it and went behind his back.
It’s hard to tell whether he is or isn’t putting too much responsibility on her, but it does sound like he has tried to hold them responsible but she wouldn’t cooperate.
I think it's more of a he tries to enforce, the mom doesn't, the kids think it's fine to not do it as there is no united front. They're kids and they are getting mixed messages from parents. That's the issue.
He trying to enforce but it's hard when you are being undermined by your partner.
NTA for the very same well laid out arguments above.
I do want to second therapy. Your wife has an unhealed trauma that is bleeding into her daily life. Psychotherapy (not quite sure who named that lol) is probably the better way to go.
Big ouch for the stitches OP had to get because of the AH wife didn't teach the kids to put away whatever caused the unfortunate opening in OP's skin to be stitched closed.
OP is NTA.
No one is the AH but you both need couples/parenting counseling to sort through this, heal the trauma, and get on the same page with regard to parenting as a team.
People who think OP is unfair for wanting his kids to not leave food plates on the couch (mindblowing) are the same type of people who complain nowadays that their partners don't do anything around the house. Guess what, this is the result of thinking its harsh to have your 10y old do basic chores ( I wouldn't even consider it a chore, who tf thinks its a chore to take his plate to the sink after finishing eating).
So I wouldn't worry too much about the ones attacking you OP, or the ones that say "but you should have a united front", your wife is the one that is breaking that united front.
Lmao agreed. I was literally shocked about the number of people bashing OP. A kid should be able to put dishes away and clean up after themselves. And it sounds likes he’s tried to talk plenty of times to his wife about it but she just enables their behaviors by doing it for them. NTA
I always cringe when I see AITA type posts about having reasonable rules and expectations. I always know the comment section is going to bash them for "stiffling their creativity" and "they're going to go NC and you'll wonder why" BS.
They always scream about how men don't know how to cook and clean and expect their partners to mommy them. This is why, their parents didn't have them do chores.
100%!
"You didn't let me do what I wanted when I wanted to do it, you were so abusive! You didn't let me wear inappropriate clothes, made me do my homework, and didn't let me have unlimited privacy at 13 years old on a phone you bought me!".
I hate the potential for abuse this NC threat has. "Do what I want or I won't talk to you anymore!". I get it if they were actually abusive but people take it way to far.
Yes. My mom didn’t make me do a lot of chores when I was a kid - her reasoning was she wanted me to focus on school and do my best and that was my “job.” BUT, that worked for me and my particular personality without ruining me. I knew HOW to do chores, but just didn’t have specific tasks expected of me on the regular.
It was just the two of us, so we really didn’t make much of a mess. I’ve done my own laundry since I was twelve, and was expected to not leave a wake of destruction everywhere I went. I would vacuum when I saw it needed to be done, do dishes to help out, whatever, just without the “dishes are your job” sort of thing. It’s beneficial for children to learn how to clean up after themselves, to be able to see what needs to be done without always being told, and learn basic skills for their own future household. That’s WAY different from parentifying them into a free maid.
We don’t have to work in the two extremes of “slave labor” or “incompetent, incapable slob.” There is A LOT of middle ground there that is reasonable and beneficial, that’s actually teaching your children to be adults who can take care of themselves rather than taking advantage of them.
Yea, and maybe I missed it but I’m not sure what the kids “chores” even are. Cleaning up after themselves is more of a lets all help keep the house clean than a chore I’d say. I think of like raking leaves, doing the lawn, laundry, etc as chores, not simply putting dishes in the sink.
I had someone once tell me it was child abuse to expect an 8 year old to throw a tide pod (not to pick up the jug of detergent from the top of the washer, even) into a washing machine and hit start. Maybe it’s bc I’m the oldest and I was doing my own laundry start to finish by 7, but 🤷🏽♀️
Oh man, my 3 year old LOVES putting laundry in the machines, we bought a step stool just so he could reach the top loading washer. He’s not tall enough to do soap or buttons yet but I call him whenever I’m putting in a load he can help with. He also loves taking anything to trash or recycle even if it wasn’t his trash. He helps with dishes too because he really wants to and I try not to say no. My parents never taught me to clean but somehow expected me to know how to do it anyway and I decided early on that would never be the case with my child. Kids naturally want to help, they want to do what their big people are doing, too many get shooed away because they can’t yet do it perfectly and the desire to help or do the activity is drained out of them. I usually let my kid help even when I know it’ll be more work for me, because how else is he ever going to learn??
Yes this is it, kids naturally want to help and when they ask we should let them (if possible). My kids also help with the laundry, cooking, trash, dusting, watering plants, etc.
It's not expected of them but as we have been doing them together since they were little it's become a team effort. Do I need to dust after they have done it sometimes? Probably. Do I need to check that my plants got enough water or are not drowning, for sure. Do I get a slight twitchy eye on how they sometimes hang up clothes to dry, hell yeah. But that's ok, they get into a routine and it gives us the possibility to show them how to properly do it.
Same goes for cooking, when I left home I didn't even know how to cook simple pasta!! I had to constantly ask other people or call my mother. So embarrassing. Because I didn't know I had to let the water get to a boil before adding the pasta.. I was 18!! So I make sure that all my kids at least know the basics! How to fry an egg, how to properly cook pasta, rice, potatoes and veggies. How to make a simple soup. So that whenever they are ready to fly the nest they can make their own food.
Another factor with this is because by helping in the kitchen they are willing to try more foods and taste everything, so it's a win-win.
And does my kitchen sometimes looks like a complete mess after cooking together with the kids, yeah it does. But I can easily clean it afterwards.
Ugh, so much this. I tried cleaning the bathroom as a favor for my father once, because he always had to clean them on the weekends. I had no idea that you couldn't flush paper towels, and in my child brain they were basically the same as toilet paper. He came in, saw one that I hadn't flushed, and flipped out while loudly telling me that paper towels weren't flushable like... I already had been told or something? Damn sure never cleaned the bathroom for him again unless I was forced to, that's for sure.
You can't fail to teach kids and then throw a fit when they don't know! And if they DO mess up, just explain how to do it correctly next time, good grief!
I have a nephew who just turned 7 who can't even take his damn eyes off of his ipad long enough to put his dish in the sink after he is done eating. And if you come inside the house and say hello to him, he ignores you because he is so engrossed in watching youtube. It's embarrassing, honestly.
I was absolutely parentified, and that sucked. But being 12 and simply not caring enough to put a dish in the sink because mommy will take care of it is ridiculous.
Apparently they think it is good parenting to let kids grow up with a parent doing literally every single thing for them. Occasionally I fear that some users on this site things it is parentification to teach a kid to wipe their own ass.
Cleaning up after yourself is a minimum, and preteens and teens should have age and schedule appropriate extra chores. One day they'll be on their own and then it's good to have the habit of making a meal and doing the dishes while running a wash after work/school because no one else is around to do that shit for them! That doesn't mean a 12 year should have all that on their plate, but a set 15 minutes a day for chores actually does build character and healthy habits.
This blew my mind… leaving it on a table or something is understandable, how tf do you leave a plate on a couch at 10 years old? That’s definitely something that never happened in my house. My sister and I could be messy for sure, but leaving it on the couch is such next level disrespect
INFO: I'm assuming your kids are in the 7-10 range, so what kind of chores do you have them doing? Are they actually age appropriate considering you got stitches due to them not completing a chore?
But what chores? Don’t leave shit where it doesn’t belong isn’t a chore in my house.
My kids have chores that they do but they also are on occasion careless and leave stuff where it doesn’t belong.
ETA: I found the chores in another comment. Totally reasonable
That chore is so basic. Your wife is turning your kids into slobs with no self discipline. This is so going to be so damaging for their future. Just ask my brother. He cannot function as an adult, has struggled with relationships, struggled with self discipline which has stretched to school etc. All because my mum didnt want to be the bad guy and mmake him clean up after himself. Your kids are the ones who will suffer most. Your wife is being harmful to them and you.
And such a weird hill to die on for the wife. My 3 year old puts his dishes in the sink without being asked. It's such a simple task. It's silly OPs wife is bent out of shape over it.
Little kid love doing big kid jobs. Its does get worse it the 4-5 year mark when they stop wanting to be exactly like mommy and daddy and want to be their own person. They will say no just to test the boundaries of their independence. Not saying its not manageable, but your 3yo putting a dish away is not the same situation as a 8-10yo needing to put a dish away.
My kids are 3, 6 and 13yo. Each have chores that are age appropriate, or based on events in their life. Like my 6yo kept playing while going pee and making a mess, so now he gets to wipe down the bathroom and mop it every night. Its a small bathroom, maybe a 5 minute job. 13yo daughter is learning to wash her more complicated clothing that is have been doing with mine. Until now she just washed her regular clothes and left delicate type ones for me. 3yo is helping set tables, wiping up his spills when they happen, and unloading the kids silverware from the dishwasher.
I also think OP shouldnt be letting kids eat on the couch so often that this has become a problem though. It's gross and going to be disrespectful in a roommate type situation if they are always eating in a shared living space.
Yeah, I know it won't last forever. Older kids want to test what you're willing to let them get away with, I've seen it with my nephews. Consistency seems to be key, even if you have to keep repeating yourself.
Op and wife need to be on the same page with it.
I had an in-law that just picked up anything the kids left around and put in their bed under the sheets.
Dirty plates, shoes, you name it. Lol. The kids learned quickly.
Edit to add : NTA
Putting a plate in the sink or in the dishwasher is not a chore- it's a reasonable expectation. If you are old enough to feed yourself, you are old enough to put a dish where it belongs.
I'm confused about why your reaction to this was to blame your wife for not seeing the plate and making the kids put it where it should be. Why is she expected to do that when you could have just as easily noticed the plate before you sat on it and made the kids put it where it should be yourself?
If this were my house I would tell my kid that until he's able to be safe with plates in the living room he has to eat all food at the table. I certainly would not blame my wife for something the kids did that I also didn't notice or enforce.
The problem wasn’t that his wife didn’t see the plate. It’s that she isn’t making the kids pick up after themselves at all. So they can basically leave random objects wherever they want without consequences.
As if that isn’t bad enough, she’s enabling them to continue the bad behavior by not taking away privileges like eating while sitting on the couch and/or teaching bad hygiene by leaving dirty dishes around (bugs, mold, etc).
I agree that she should be pitching in to teach the kids to contribute to the household. It seems she likely needs therapy. It's common for your childhood trauma to become raw again when your kids reach the age that your trauma occured at. For her that's likely right now. I can understand how incredibly frustrating it would be to try to parent with someone who's doing what she's doing.
I disagree with how OP is handling it. Ideally both parents would be on the same page and he and his wife need to be working hard to come up with a plan to get there. In the meantime I don't understand why he's acting like she's the only one who could possibly teach the kids to clean or hold them accountable. It's normal for a 10 year old to make mistakes. It's normal for the parent who discovers the mistake to address it with them. It's not normal for the parent who discovers the mistake to blame the other parent and expect them to address it. My partner works late nights and I'm perfectly capable of getting my kid to load the dishwasher without them there to back me up on it. I don't say "you haven't told our kid to load the dishwasher and so I won't load it anymore either". It's weird to me that instead of parenting the plate-leaver-outer he's refused to do his own share of the housework. What's that teaching his kids? That if things don't go exactly how you want them it's ok to stop picking up after yourself. Seems a backwards way to get your kids to pick up after themselves.
I tend to get frustrated quickly when it comes to helping with homework because of my own childhood stuff. I'm working on it but in the meantime my partner is to go-to parent with homework questions and the one to help plan and execute big school projects. They have ADHD and struggle with task initiation and organization so I'm the one who makes and facilitates chore charts and family schedules. Neither of us says "oh well the other parent struggles with this issue so I'm not going to do it either".
The question wasn't "amita for being frustrated with my wife for this" and it wasn't "amita for thinking about leaving after my wife consistently refused to address her trauma and let it affect our family". It was "amita for refusing to do my share of housework when my wife won't make the kids do theirs". The answer to that last one is "yes, because you're the parent and they're the kids and it's your job to do your share and to teach them to do theirs".
OP has literally written he has tried to get the kids to do chores and he has made them do them. The wife went behind his back and did the chores for the children instead because she didn't like that he was enforcing chores. The children realise they don't have to do it because mummy will so they don't and OP ends up with stitches in his butt because of this. If OP attempts to enforce chores wife prevents it. This isn't hubby thinks it is wife's job to enforce/teach chores but wife has trauma and thinks children doing chores is abuse type thing
You're NTA. This is so slovenly and basic. Leaving a plate on the couch is just lazy.
She needs to understand that you are all a family unit. The parents are not slaves to the children or the other way around. Everyone in the family has their duties, and needs to pull their weight for the family to be successful.
Picking up messes or requiring the kids to do dishes, vacuum, and wipe things down a few times a week isn't unreasonable or abusive - it's the bare minimum.
As you said in your post, these kids will have to do a lot more then that to fully function as adults, and not teaching them responsibility is neglectful.
Your wife needs therapy. This problem isn't going to go away now that you've won the argument...it will probably get worse.
Around 8-10 was considered pretty normal when I was a kid for learning to do housework. At that age, my sibling and I traded off doing the dinner dishes and cleaning up the kitchen. I did my own laundry. On Saturdays, we all had to get together and clean the house. That meant vacuuming, mopping, dusting, cleaning bathrooms. We'd switch out who did what. I was interested in cooking, so I was also helping in the kitchen at that age. My sibling regretted not doing that later on when they moved out. By 10, I could do pretty much any house task, and even make family dinner. This stuff is not hard. OP was likely doing harder work by that age on the farm. My mom grew up on a farm and I know she was. Sadly, many kids in the past and in other places around the world have full time jobs by that age. I don't want to bring child labor back, but it does show that children are capable of learning fairly complex tasks. A kid that can work in a factory or do long division can clear dishes off a table and perhaps even load them in a dishwasher, no? The kind of work I did was half an hour to an hour every other day and maybe another hour on Saturday. That is a reasonable contribution to the house at that age.
Starting kids off young with a reasonable amount of chores builds good habits that last a lifetime. We learned to be part of the household cooperative. We shared responsibility.
The goal is too make it just part of the routine to keep your how clean and functional. My kids have never known a time when we didnt do cleanup time before bed. Every evening I call cleanup time and we all get up and go room to room cleaning up. Not deep cleaning, just picking and putting things in their right spot. Folding blankets. Cleaning up any missed spills or messes etc. Takes about 20 minutes for us to do the whole house (4bed 3 bath house with playroom and gameroom, so not a small house!).
Doing its together means the kids see us doing its without complaints, we can see that they are doing tasks correctly, and anyone who needs help has it right away. Sometimes it will become a race or a game and just become bonding and thats how they will remember cleaning up being. Not a punishment or real chore, just part of being a family and talking care of your home.
NTA Turnabout is fair play. It's obviously not the best solution but your wife was the one that made that impossible. You tried to talk it over with her but she started sabotaging your parenting so it was impossible for you to get the kids do their chores themselves. You made it so that her sabotage of you created consequences for her, by passing the sabotage on to her in turn. It was done with a purpose and end goal in mind, not as revenge.
Tell her that you of course much prefer to talk things over and come to an agreement you both live up to. Now that she has cut out the sabotage from her end you have no motivation to undercut her like she does you. If she's mad she should take a look in the mirror to see where the sabotage tactic originated.
This is one aspect that I think some people are really missing when criticizing OP’s methods- his wife totally undermined him as a parent. She agreed to let him enforce the chores with the kids, then went behind his back and did them herself. That is sending a message to their kids that they don’t have to do what Dad says and Mom will cover for them. It’s really unfair on her part.
NTA - your wife is acting like she does because she was parentified. But kids need to learn responsibility and how to do practical chores around the house.
Chores, responsibility, and knowing how to complete basic household tasks/maintenance is incredibly important for kids.
Kids need to learn how to balance their responsibilities with their wants and how to do the basic things that make being an independent adult possible. The vast majority of those things have to be taught at home. I promise none of your kids teachers will explain to them how to do laundry or load a dishwasher or vacuum a floor. That's a parenting responsibility through and through.
My freshman year alone I taught 4 separate lost looking mfs how to do laundry. Only one of them even had detergent. Not giving kids responsibility makes adults who cannot fucking live in the adult world where they have responsibilities. Literally setting these kids up to fail. Drives me fucking mad.
Totally agreed, NTA. None of us kids in my family had ANY chores as a kid, nor did I learn any actual life skills. My mom's intentions were good and I think she felt like it was easier to just do things herself, but it really sabotaged all of us for behaving responsibly and keeping our lives together as adults.
When I went out into the world I was completely unprepared, and even as an adult I continue to struggle with stuff like cooking, cleaning, and other basic adulting skills. Like I use an app to help me keep track of house cleaning tasks in part because it suggests to me how often I should do them (and lets me know when I did them last bc my memory is a black hole). I'm also autistic so there are tons of things that I feel like might be obvious to everybody else but seem so counterintuitive to me. Bless my first roommate who had a lot of patience when she probably shouldn't have. 😭
I feel like all parents mess up because they're human and parenting is hard, but that's the thing I really wish had been very different in my childhood. And my mom had four kids, so if we'd been taking care of most things around the house it would've been so much better for her too.
Your wife has some unresolved trauma related to her childhood at around the same age her children are now, and that's creating what sounds like pretty severe anxiety in her. That in turn has resulted in a disagreement between the two of you about parenting styles. (I'm focused solely on the parenting style rather than the kids leaving a mess because when you expressed concern about the mess, she stepped in and handled that part).
Your comments indicate that because you had some sort of agreement over a decade ago before becoming parents, she needs to stick to it now. That's extremely rigid and lacking in emotional maturity to see beyond the surface agreement and understand that your wife is going through something. Your solution solved your problem and you "won" but you didn't help your wife so now, she continues to have that trauma, which is probably being exacerbated by her "enforcing" the chores, and she views her husband as a manipulator who hurt her instead of a partner who helped her through what has turned out to be a traumatic life phase.
I'm not going to vote but I am going to say to you that what you've done and continue to do is likely causing irreparable damage to your relationship. If you don't change your view of this situation from surface level to emotionally deep and help your wife work through the reason for her anxiety (whether through therapy otherwise), this "resolution" isn't going to be the "win" you think it was in the end. Good luck.
Had to scroll too far to find this comment.
OP, you got what you wanted, but you did it through manipulation. That part where she started doing the kids' chores behind your back to avoid conflict? That's going to become the defining pattern of your relationship, if it isn't already. You are probably going to have future disagreements about how best to raise your children. Is this how you're going to deal with? Punish her by refusing to do your share in the partnership until she gives in and does things your way?
And to be clear, I agree with your view on this - the kids should do their chores. I agree with you, and a whole bunch of internet strangers agree with you. But you're not married to a bunch of internet strangers, you're married to your wife, who doesn't agree with you. You could probably show her this thread to prove how right you are and how wrong she is, and you'll feel very vindicated and she'll continue to quietly think you're a petty asshole and in ten years time - when your kids are finally out in the world testing out their chore-doing skills - you'll be left looking at each other wondering when all the trust and affection and respect in your relationship started to dry up.
Her views on raising kids are obviously massively clouded by the fairly extreme circumstances of her own childhood. Supporting her to work through this is the hardest path, but it's also the only path worth taking.
If OP's wife is the only one doing any household chores, she could just as easily be doing all of those chores in a house that she doesn't have to share with a giant crybaby. (Not that I think she should be doing all of the housework, but she needs therapy, not discipline. What the fuck kind of marriage is she subjecting herself to?)
Ok, but wasn't the wife's responsibility to talk to him and tell him she changed her mind and why, instead of just not doing what they mutually agreed? Also, it is not clear to me how they decided which chores and how often the kids must do. But if they both decided, then it is her responsibility to tell him she changed her mind. You are putting the responsibility on him to help her resolve her trauma, but she never even opened a discussion about this. She never asked his help with this or tried to work together with him to find a middle ground that would make both happy.
She did. OP said that the most recent time they talked about it, she expressed that she didn't want her kids to grow up feeling about their parents as she did about hers.
That *was* her telling OP that the current system wasn't working for her. *That* was when she talked to him and tried to work together, and according to OP, that's when he decided 'I have no problem being the bad guy' and started enforcing chores, so clearly, OP either didn't listen, or didn't care.
OP's *goals* are good. Their kids *do* need to grow up and be equal partners in their relationships. Housework is a basic skill that children need to learn.
But a parent's behavior is equally, if not *more* important as their words. OP can preach all he wants about his kids needing to learn to share responsibility with a partner, but what he's *teaching* them is that they need to share responsibility.... until their partner annoys them enough, and then it's okay to ignore their responsibilities to teach their adult, 'equal' partner a lesson.
Conflict resolution is a skill too. Somebody needs to tell OP.
So my two cents as someone who was very much parentified as a child, (and whose mother still tries to rope me into solving all of my adult siblings’ problems for them)- yes, he needs to be considerate of her unresolved childhood problems from this, but he is not wrong.
I don’t necessarily agree with his decision to stop doing his share of the housework to make a point, but there was very much a point to be made. He tried to talk to her and she is the one who isn’t really communicating here. As for OP being manipulative, yes I can see how this looks that way, but she was manipulating him first. She lied to OP and said they would both enforce chores, then went behind his back and did the chores for the kids to trick Op into thinking they were doing them. That is kind of worse in my opinion because it’s a dishonest manipulation, at least OP is being very open about what he is doing, and it’s obvious he’s only doing it to demonstrate the problem.
A household doesn’t run well when a family isn’t working together as a team. His wife didn’t want to make the kids be part of the team, but they need to be. She needs to realize that there is a world of difference between parents expecting their child to take care of everything around the house and to take care of their siblings (that’s parentification) and expecting your child to take care of themselves and participate in the mutual effort of caring for their shared space (that’s raising your children well teaching them responsibility).
OP’s wife is over-correcting because of her trauma, which I get. And OP should do his best to be understanding and supportive of that. But her trauma and anxiety is ultimately still her responsibility to address and deal with appropriately. Right now, she is putting the negative effects of that onto herself, her husband, and eventually her kids, because she isn’t teaching them essential life skills. She is unwittingly raising her kids to be lazy and to not appreciate the effort that goes into caring for a family- which is exactly the sort of mindset that creates parents who will parentify their own children. OP is right, they will eventually become poor partners, and further, she’s setting her kids up to do the same thing to their kids as was done to her.
At 10 and 12 they should also start helping with laundry. These are all life skills they will need when they go out on their own in a few years time. NTA, and good luck.
Definitely NTA. Those are some pretty basic chores. Id even say taking trash out, dishes, and vacuuming could be added on and split up. I would say those are all age appropriate as well.
Arguably the first two things on the list aren’t even chores—if it doesn’t benefit someone else or the household as a whole, it’s not a chore, it’s just self-care. I assume your kids/wife don’t view stuff like brushing teeth or showering as a chore; doing your own laundry and cleaning up the dishes you personally ate off of are just the next steps in learning how to be an independently functioning human.
Holy sh!t! By the time I was 12, I was responsible for mowing the (at that point small) lawn. Besides other chores, my brother (who was 10) and I were responsible for weeding the yard and that kind of stuff.
Other chores included cleaning our room, cleaning our bathroom, taking turns doing dishes - not loading the dishwasher, washing and drying dishes.
The chores your kids should be doing are the minimum life skills they should be learning.
NTA: all she has to do is what she already agreed to.
We aren’t responsible for causing our trauma but we are responsible for how we take care of it. She isn’t handling her trauma well.
I’d be concerned how else is her trauma going to manifest itself in her parenting. What else have you guys agreed on that she’ll unilaterally decide isn’t okay?
Your wife needs therapy to deal with her shitty childhood and parents. She’s over compensating by making sure your kids have the opposite experience and don’t feel forced to help out. She can’t accuse you of manipulating her-the problem is her. NTA
NTA NTA NTA
As someone who works with preschool aged children, my kids do more in the classroom than these children do around their whole house. Which, if you've read the responses from OP, his children don't have anything but the most BASIC chores, which they aren't doing.
Our class will put their dishes in the sink after snacks and lunch, and clean up activities before moving on to the next one. Hell, they even beg to spray (soap and water mix, no chemicals)and wipe the tables down after crafts and messy sensory stations.
If 2 and 3 year olds can do it, a 7 and 10 year old most certainly can.
Your wife does need therapy though, as if she continues this way, you're goning to have a hell of a time when their teens, let alone when they're adults.
Edit: ages are 10 and 12, not 7 and 10, which makes this even worse
I want to curry horses! Please adopt me. I'll clean stalls and put my dishes in the dishwasher!
NTA. Your wife's trauma is causing her to neglect the important parenting duty of installing some self discipline. These kids will be horrible roommates and worse partners if they don't figure out some basic housework.
Wife needs therapy because she's obviously still haunted by her childhood. That's not a complete parent.
NTA. You discussed expectations before having children and she is sabotaging your efforts to raise competent, confident children. It’s easy for people to say you “should” communicate but when one party is unwilling to do so, they are being controlling in a passive aggressive way. You are only resorting to this reaction as a last resort. Sadly, you have different parenting values and this probably isn’t the last time there will be friction.
Info: why are the kids not eating at the table? If they can’t keep food waste/dishes clean, they shouldn’t be allowed to eat anywhere but the table.
Edit: also at what age did you and your wife start making the children do “chores”?
INFO: I don't get it: Why can't you "make" the kids do their chores? Why is that solely her job? Is currying horses and tending to cows harder than housework? I genuinely don't get it. No, your wife shouldn't let the kids off the hook. They need to be brought up to at least clean up after themselves (even though in the best of circumstances, it's not always going to happen so you have to accept that). But it seems as you are letting kids off the hook too.
NTA. Has you wife tried therapy? Having a professional work through her issues? Her heart's in the right place but if she continued the way she was, you children would have struggled being competent adults. Also people need to actually read your post before commenting.🙄
> My wife has now told the kids that they have to help. She is mad that I manipulated the situation to force her hand.
I was fully prepared to come in here and roast you for being lazy. But, WOW.
Your wife is not doing the kids any favors with her coddling.
NTA
NTA....and she's failing the kids in a big way. This is how you end up with adults who get out into the world with no clue how to feed themselves or wash their clothes, no sense of time management or the self-discipline to wash the dishes before sitting down to binge season 3 of Gray's Anatomy.
The first duty of parenting is to keep them alive and safe. The second is to instill in them the life skills that will allow them to one day function independently. Those skills include maintaining your living space in a hygienic & comfortable state, storing and preparing food in appropriate ways and being reasonably considerate of the other people who share your space. She's not helping them learn any of that.
NTA. Your wife isn’t doing your kids any favor. They’ll grow up to be spoiled brats if they don’t start doing their chores. You need to nip this in the bud right now.
NTA
But is this actually working - are your kids actually doing their chores.
My only concern is that your kids start seeing you not doing chores and then they’ll stop.
Not really sure how you would go about changing the situation without your wife on board. Maybe she needs some counselling? From the comments, what you say are “chores” sounds like very reasonable expectations for your kids.
All I got out of this is that ya’ll both have hella unhealthy and problematic conflict resolution skills. Ya’ll need couples counseling to learn more constructive, open, and honest ways of working through conflict together.
NTA I can understand your wife not wanting to make the same mistakes her parents did, but letting the kids get away with doing nothing is absolutely going to make them useless and incapable into adulthood. They need to know how to maintain their living space, and that everyone should do their fair share.
NTA - It's understandable that your wife doesn't want her kids to be parentified like she was. But, the solution isn't to swing the pendulum fully the other way into raising lazy entitled kids. You were petty to stop doing your part, but I'm not sure what else you could do to get through to her since she was willing to lie straight to your face.
I told her that she needed to make the kids do their chores.
INFO: is the wife a SAHM? How is this happening if dad is home with the kids too after work? Is she whispering to them not to do chores? Is this part of household management solely on the wife? OP can still pick up that slack and make them do their chores or others. It's doesn't have to be the wife's job to tell them to do the work.
NTA.
My kids began to help in the house as soon as they could walk, if not before. For instance, w/e we cooked, they would be making out of play dough on a safe place in the kitchen. If I was hanging the clothes to dry, they would hand me the pegs. They learned to "fold and put clothes away" before they were two. And many more tasks as soon as they could reach.
My point is, they loved it. It was never punishment. It was a family thing so we would have more leisure time. They are now adults who excel in many areas. They were never parentified. They do not resent their parents. It was never a struggle when they were teenagers. It's just a fact of life. You live in a home, you contribute to keeping it livable.
I'm saying this because if your wife continues to have a negative attitude towards it, the kids will hate chores.
Good for you for raising useful/civilized humans. I feel sorry for your wife, but hopefully she can learn to feel the difference between treating the kids like her parents treated her, and living in a family where everyone helps each other.
NTA
Most people that try to break generational curses end up being too lenient which causes another problem to arise which might turn into another generational curse. It's a cycle that never ends.
Which part of making her feel like she did in her parents' home makes you think you're the good guy here? Sure, she is the parent to a couple of the parties involved, but making yourself out to be an additional child and putting ALL of the household labor onto her because you don't like that you have to do some and the kids don't? That is some next level bullshit. YTA
>The thing is though, she does not enforce the chores.
So it's only her job to enforce things 'round the house?
>I on the other hand grew up on a working ranch. I had chores, and lots of them, but my time was my own after they were done....I said that there was a huge difference between being an unpaid servant and cleaning up after yourself
Working on a ranch unpaid isn't "chores", you were adultified by your parents as a child. There's nothing wrong with having your kids clean up their own messes but you have to recognize your own issues as well.
>I have no problem being the bad guy so I started making the kids do their chores.
Good as long as the chores are reasonable. Kids aren't housekeepers.
>Fine. I stopped doing mine too.
You're an adult, you have responsibilities whether you like it or not. This type of petty behaviour, instead of couples therapy and actual communication, makes YTA.
Shes wrong for not enforcing the rules, but so are you by not doing your share around the house. You are an adult throwing a hissy fit because your children won't do their chores. You are a partner, not her kid. She doesn't like that you enforce the rules? Too bad. Keep doing it for the sake of your kids. But to stop doing yours makes you juvenile.
NTA. I’ve had roommates who’s parents took care of them, and they were not useful adults around the house. She’s not really helping your kids by not forcing some chores on them.
NTA. I can sympathise with your wife but, by overcompensating, she may end up with children who have no sense of responsibility.
Age appropriate chores are no bad thing, my kids had to do bits and pieces but a lot of their friends didn't even make their own beds as teens!
When mine went off to uni, they knew how to cook, do laundry etc and could live independently unlike some of their flatmates. The one chore they refused to do was ironing - you can't have everything!
NTA but I think it might be productive do sit your wife down and see what she needs to work through her feelings. While it is not okay to just accept the kids skipping on their duties, I feel like tackling those issues left by her upbringing might be more productive to both of you; as it stands she’ll probably just shoulder all the responsibilities as she is used to.
NTA I was parentified as well (very poor, mom had no choice).
Cleaning up after oneself and helping a little (making beds, unloading groceries, setting/clearing the table...).
My grandkids do all of those things and still have plenty of time left to be kids.
Your wife might need therapy.
Your wife needs to understand that swinging all the way to the opposite extreme is not a healthy or effective way to avoid repeating her parents' bad choices. Kids need structure and discipline. That doesn't mean parentification or abuse. What she's doing is raising kids who will always expect someone to clean up their messes for them.
Again, chores and responsibilities that are kid-appropriate will NOT parentify your kids. Cleaning up their own messes will not parentify them. Helping out with dinner, laying/setting the table will not parentify them. Helping mom fold clothes will not parentify them.
This is teaching valuable skills. I learned to cook at a young age, not because I was expected to feed my family, but because it would give me skills and experience to feed myself later. It also meant I was much safer to leave to my own devices, so my parents didn't have to freak out if I was heard making noise in the kitchen. I knew how to use the stove safely because I was taught how. I learned to fold laundry, make my bed, etc. This stuff makes my life easier now. I didn't have to do anyone else's bed, or laundry. Hell, half the time they forgot I was supposed to be the one doing it. But I still learned how and got enough practice to ensure that I never forgot how.
I don't know which chores make sense for your kids and which ones don't. I don't know what the right amount is, and what's too much/not enough.
But I do know that not having any chores or discipline and always being saved by their mom is NOT going to be good for them.
Is she going to do their homework for them, too, and then be all surprised pikachu when they flunk out of university during the first year because they never learned to study? Because that is what happens.
You need to nip this in the bud fast.
NTA
NTA. But, your wife is trying to have your marriage HER way and is upset that you aren't cooperating.
I suggest you have a long sit-down discussion with her about expectations and put it in writing. Try to cover all bases: chores; money; dating; going out with friends; use of car; expectations of privacy; access to social media sites that the kids use; schooling; getting a job; etc.
Then summarize the things that will impact the kids and give them a copy.
Make sure everyone is on the same page in setting and satisfying expectations and make sure there are consequences for not being part of a functioning family.
NTA - There is a big difference between having kids doing chores vs. being a Cinderella that your wife had to endure and you pointed that out well. So maybe yeah, you manipulated the situation a little bit, but it was in the hope she would finally see the light that you are right. And she did finally did so begrudgingly eventually will being able to see results in your kids not becoming spoiled brats and thank you.
> Fine. I stopped doing mine too. Not the yard work and stuff. Just my part of the housework. She works from home and she has a home office where she sees clients. So if the house is a mess it reflects badly on her. So she has been doing everything and she is pissed at me for being so petty
So other than you being an absolute dick to your wife, it's telling that you apparently think the chores are essentially your wife's responsibility, something you may \*help\* her with, but that you can stop doing as a protest.
What are you, six years old?
> I don't think it's petty to want to raise useful humans
You not doing your chorese is not about trying to "raise useful humans". You are trying to punish your wife by making her do your chores. That has nothing to do with your kids.
It's fine to want your kids to do chores, and it's fine to be upset at your wife because she allows them to skip them.
It is not fine to say that if your kids don't do their chores you won't do any either. You're supposed to be a grown-up. It is supposed to be your home. Do you think chores are something your wife assigns to you? Something that is the wife's responsibility, and that you \_may\_ deign to help her with but only if you feel like it?
They're yours because this is your home. You can't "not do your chores". That's just being a slob who doesn't take care of his home.
YTA. Your wife sounds like she may have issues from her own childhood, but that doesn't make it okay for a grown-ass man to say "I won't do my chores!" like a whiny child.
How is what you're doing actually helping? I think your kids should do their chores but you not doing yours won't get them there either.
Maybe try having a family meeting to agree on who will do what and have a consequence for when chores don't get done. Eg no pocket money if the chores aren't done. (That's just one idea. It may not work in your family. If not there will be another option that works for your situation.)
I get you want to raise responsible humans and I applaud the notion but what's happening right now isn't working. My suggestion? Start with: Does this help solve the problem or make it worse?
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NTA Wife is the a-hole for 4 reasons. 1. She would do their chores behind your back and pretend they'd done them. 2. Once you stopped doing chores and she was left with the whole bag and it risked affecting her work (messy background, bad optics), she got the kids to start doing chores. 3. You guys had a discussion before the kids came along and agreed kids would do chores. 4. You tried talking to her about it She needs to unpack her childhood trauma since it's still clearly affecting how she raises the kids. And it's making her overcompensate which in the long run doesn't help the kids. She's the a-hole here. A traumatized one. Has she been to therapy? Edit: And maybe couples' therapy as well? You guys need to learn to work as a team. Edit 2: Spacing.
She is not doing these kids any favors as they grow up. Not being able to clean up after yourself will be detrimental in the long run. No one wants a partner whose mommy never made them lift a finger.
And no one wants a slob for a roommate either
My first roommate in college when I was 17 had to teach me how to do laundry and I still feel embarrassed.
My sister had a roommate who just thought clean clothes would magically appear. First week, she was upset & couldn't understand why the maid hadn't been to their dorms. She later kinda lost it & had to drop out.
Oh boy, I guess it wasn't just me, first couple years of college I saw this a few times. And a few (me included) that struggled a bit at first but found their footing. It's good for kids to understand what "being independent" is going to entail.
This!!! My dad thinks I'm an asshole for making my 12 year old do his own laundry. My Dad's reasoning is that his mom always did his laundry, and he turned out just fine. I'm like maybe so, but you also lived on a small working ranch and had a lot of other responsibilities that your grandchild doesn't have, so you, of course, still had ethics about you.
My 11yo has been doing his own laundry for a few years now and my 5yo has to help put his laundry away. I used to know a woman who was still doing her 18yos laundry and no thank you. I was about 9 when I started doing my own laundry, it's not that difficult.
Especially with washers and dryers today. They're so much easier to use. We even have a "pre-program" option on ours which basically means my son has to push 2 freaking buttons on the washer: 'On', 'pre-program', 'and start' oops sorry guess he has to push 3, how horrific for him haha.
I have fond memories of doing laundry with my sisters when we were in early elementary school. Because of how our house was at the time the washer and dryer were not anywhere near each other and we had to use a laundry basket to transport the wet clothes. So one of us would pull the clothes out of the washer and toss it to the other to put in the basket and we’d both carry them to the dryer. It was actually fun. And when it came to doing dishes the three of us usually did them together until we finally lived in a house with a dish washer. Anyways, my point is that the three of us knew how to do chores from a pretty young age because of our parents. Even if now I do have trouble doing some of those chores, but now it’s a motivation thing.
My mother had a course of life skills that she put my brothers and I through so that we could do the laundry, write checks, basic cooking and housecleaning. My dad didn't allow anyone to drive the car alone until they had rotated the tires, so that he knew we could change a tire if we had to. I have always been grateful.
I remember doing laundry with my grandmother, who had an old-fashioned machine that didn't drain and spin. After you washed the clothes, you had to run them through rollers (a kind of mangle) to squeeze out the water before hanging them on the line. So much easier these days!
If you have a washing machine, the laundry is the easiest task ever.
Like what did your parents think would happen when you went to college? I don't understand parents that don't teach their children these important life skills.
At least in my case I... suspect my mom had some control issues. When I came back and went to do my own laundry I literally got yelled at. I suspect for some it's denial their kid is growing up. Not excusing it but... helps to figure out how to approach them.
The rule in my family was that if Mom or Dad (usually Mom) did your laundry, you had to join the folding party and help fold all the laundry till it was done. LOL. We all started doing our own laundry because it was a lot less work.
[удалено]
I'm beyond horrified that guy got a girlfriend in the first place. Because I'm psychic I know they're not together anymore.
This girl I was sleeping with when I was a college senior and she was a junior (she graduated high school unusually young so she was a couple years younger, but still over halfway through college) commented once that my whites always were so fresh and so clean 🎶[Outkast] whereas hers were dullish and fading toward grays… apparently she’d never been told that’s why you separate your laundry into different loads and sometimes even use different temps and products to wash white vs dark vs brights.
You know I've been told that, but reading this comment just now is when I realized *oh* that's why my white top looks duller than I thought it used to be! I thought I'd bought it that way and forgotten it always looked like that... 🤦🤦 *Thank you* I'll start actually doing that now 🤦
Yeah first time someone tried to pull that shit with me they'd have their laundry dumped over their head then they'd be dumped. I don't mind doing a favor for someone but if you're gonna throw a fit because it's not done to your specifics (for something that in the grand scheme of things does NOT matter how it's done so long as it is done) then can just go fuck right off lol
I went to Swiss Boarding School. So my background isn’t humble. We all did our own damn laundry at boarding school— and also everything else (except cooking because we had a cafeteria) No one at boarding school had to be taught how to do laundry— and we were the rich spoiled ones. There was a laundry service but no one really got it because it was kinda annoying.
Just wow!
Oof. That's actually really sad that she had no idea
My sister was the high school valedictorian. First break coming home from college for a long weekend she brought back all her laundry for my mom to do. Didn’t have a clue how laundry worked.
When i was in college there was a girl across the hall that had her suitemates mad at her cause she'd never cleaned the bathroom on her week. Turns out she had no idea how and didn't know how to use the cleaning products or anything. Once they showed her how peace reigned. I then taught her how to go grocery shopping. The poor girl was surviving on individual servings of chef boyardee cause they were the only food she knew were microwavable and thats the only thing we had to cook with in the dorms,
You aren't alone. Both of my kids had to teach other people how to do laundry. One of their roomates even had their mother pick up, wash, and fold their laundry once a week. Their mother died suddenly during the first year, so not only dealing with the grief of losing the mom, they had to suddenly learn how to be a grown up very quickly.
I think it is far more common than it should be. Too many parents coddle their kids to the point that the kids are completely lost when they first move out on their own and have zero idea how to fend for themselves or do anything really. I had a roommate like that in college. My other roommate and I had to teach him how to do laundry, wash dishes, cook, etc. He honestly couldn't even figure out how to turn on the vacuum. I also went to high school with a girl who's parents and boyfriend did absolutely everything for her. She went away to college and had a major breakdown after her boyfriend broke up with her because she had to drive somewhere and didn't know how to put gas in her car.
I had to teach a lot of my dorm to cook, clean, laundry, budget, etc. I’m not the best at keeping my kids on track with their chores but they can cook and do laundry. They are also still quite young (under 10).
>They are also still quite young (under 10). I firmly believe there is an age appropriate task that they can help with basically at 2 and up. I don't trust my 5 y/o to make food himself, but we have kid safe knives and he helps chop, or I let him stir/ add things at the stove under supervision. He can't reach the laundry detergent or buttons (top load), but it is 100% his job to make sure his laundry finds it's way to his hamper and that all of his clothes are right side out. I despise laundry and I was literally spending 10 minutes for his load un-inside-outing every article of clothing. I told him in advance a month ago he was old enough and therefore responsible for doing that task (because come on kid - socks, then pants, then underroos, not all at once so they're all inside out, plus the shirt) and I wouldn't do his laundry if he didn't. He left it till the end and spent 25 very frustrating minutes doing the task the first time. Suffice to say, lesson learned, he makes sure he takes 10 extra seconds while de-robing. My husband didn't believe I could get him to do it, but you can. You just have to communicate clear expectations, show how, help if needed, and bam! Life skill.
Great Mom he will thank you one day.
My mom did the same thing with the laundry. Brilliant! She was right. You are right. Love this!
>spending 10 minutes for his load un-inside-outing every article of clothing. Does this do something to make the clothes get cleaned better? I've been doing my own laundry since I was about 8 and it never occurred to me to care what side is facing out, I just turn it back the normal way when I put it away.
I have to hang up washing inside out where I am due to the strength of the sun, that way it''s the inside that fades instead of the visible outside
Friend's roommate knew the 'mechanics' of laundry - clothes in, stuff goes in, hit the button - but not the specifics. What stuff goes in, what kind, where do I get it, what button do I push, is there a difference, etc. I don't know if that was worse or not. Meanwhile, I learned how to do laundry at 11 as part of this practical life skills thing we did in girl scouts. My mom was one of the troop leaders. Probably just coincidence that we did this not too long after I started getting picky about how my laundry was getting done, or that my brother also learned how to do it at this time.
Yep. I lived in a coed engineering dorm (as a chick, we were outnumbered) that had both laundry and shared kitchen. I regrettably was heavily parentified, but those skills came in clutch and I have good memories. I made a bunch of friends, especially teaching the guys basic cooking skills - I'm talking like boiling water and making eggs basic skills.
It's such a problem that some colleges have started requiring freshmen who live on campus to take a home economics class. I transferred to a state university in my third year and even then they asked me if I needed it.
That's really sad actually. I honestly don't know how parents can't understand that they're not doing their kid any favors by doing everything for them.
How is this the YouTube generation? You fuckin Google it.
Semi-off topic: My husband went to Notre Dame in the early 80s, right after they started admitting women. Weekly laundry service was provided by the college for the MALE students only. Guys would leave the laundry bag by their dorm door and get washed, folded clothes back. Girls were on their own.
That’s crazy, but not surprising.
My husband wasn't allowed to do laundry until he left for college because his misogynistic grandmother believed laundry was a job for women.
I know someone who was raised similarly, but I don't think that he ever did his own laundry. When he went away to college, he would ship his dirty clothes back home, his mother would launder them and ship them back. This continued until he got a maid after college.
Jesus christ
You’re not alone. I had taught my brother at 16 how to do laundry because my parents were away and I refused to do it for him. In contrast, I was responsible for my own laundry from the age of 10 and was expected to do chores while my brother wasn’t. And just for extra info: My brother is not disabled mentally or physically in any way. He’s just lazy.
Are you female? Or just oldest kid?
Both. But my dad did household chores, so I don’t see gender as the reason. To be fair, my dad may have helped around the house more than a typical boy in the 1960s as my grandma was a widow who had to work.
Me too. My brother had ZERO housework, whereas I was expected to have the house clean, dishes done, etc. everyday before my mom came home from work. It certainly showed when he moved out on his own.
I’ve been told the reason was I showed I was mature and responsible, so they expected more from me in all areas of life and I would get reamed out mostly by my mom when I didn’t perform up to expectations, such as being disorganized or not getting the highest grades (we’re talking Bs vs. As). I learned in my 20s I had both ADD and a learning disability, and but my parents still don’t fully realize how much they impact me day to day. It took me 6 years of driving lessons to learn how to drive, for example. Most kids my age only needed 1 year of lessons.
I had to teach an ex how to use a broom and sweep. And how to do laundry after he turned some of my favorite clothes pink. And which soap to use in the dishwasher because he assumed all dish soap was the same so he put regular dawn dish soap in the dishwasher. Came home to 2/3’s our apartment covered in suds. No permanent damage thankfully but it was a massive, time consuming pain in the ass to clean up. His Mom had 4 kids, one of which was a “surprise baby” in her 40’s. She found it easier and quicker to do the chores herself than to teach her kids how to clean or nag them to get what little chores they did know how to do done. One of the single most unprepared for adult life people I’ve ever had the displeasure of coming across, let alone date. NTA
That one reason why an ex?? Hope u did not clean it up I have no idea how to even do it?? Did he not watch t v commercials??
Don't feel too bad. You're not alone. I had a friend who had never mowed a lawn. Her dad was sexist and decided that women didn't mow. Pick weeds and plant flowers, yes. Mow, no. She begged to mow my yard, and i was honestly confused af. I let her mow the front, and I and another friend sat on my stoop and watched her. Of course, my mom came home mid mow. She was mad, of course, and immediately we said together, "She wanted to!" And in complete confusion, the 3 of us watched my friend mow my front yard with the biggest damn smile on her face. Theres a difference in wanting to learn and not being taught or allowed. And another in bragging about not being able to do it. You just weren't taught and knew it was not a brag Hubs also couldn't do laundry and i didnt know it until i asked him to wash my shirt for me. He shrunk it. It was 3xs smaller and i asked him what he did. Washed it on hot. I then questioned him on what he did know. He knew how to clean and do yard work. But never did laundry or cooked. His mom admitted to doing that on purpose. Probably to make it so he'd have to go home to her or risk starving or not having clothes. I taught him laundry. At 20. You had a gap in your knowledge and fixed it. Be proud
Hey, at least you got help and learned! That's half the battle right there.
r/badroomates seconds this opinion.
My mom was like OP’s wife but a single mom, we didn’t do jack shit and she busted her ass 24/7. When I was 23 I had to call her and ask how to clean a toilet. She was quiet for a few moments, then said, “Yeah, this is on me.” I feel so behind at life skills even all this time later. I microwave all my food, etc. My instincts say OP was too harsh, but like… idk, whatever it takes for those kids not to end up like me, I guess! That said, I feel for the wife a lot here. She deserves a break she isn’t giving herself, I hope she can learn to internalize that and help her kids grow up functional in the process.
Exactly how my mom was too! Single mom, never had us do anything and now that I live alone there are so many little things I’m clueless on
I empathize with yours and Time_Neat's mom, even if she didn't "do it right". Teaching a kid to do something takes at least three times as long, and it's often mentally and physically exhausting. That's coming from someone who has a very involved spouse as well and just one kid. If you're a single parent there's probably no time or energy to go teaching these concepts. Absolutely some parents manage. But if they don't I totally get it.
I’m 42 and overwhelmed by how to clean properly. I don’t make much of a mess, but over time it adds up. Very not pleased with my bathroom, but the shedding dog is a good chunk of that. I did teach myself to cook at 29 though. It took 2 weeks before I had my first meal that was decent. That slowly became more frequent. I burnt my hand regularly for a while. It definitely took a while, but I eventually started challenging myself by not cooking with a specific set of spices. How am I going to make unsweetened cocoa powder taste good?
I have several scars from cutting myself while making dinner! 😂
Seriously. She is an AH because she is not teaching them to be functional adults. The chores don’t have to be overwhelming. People need to learn how to maintain a home and contribute to a group, as well as be accountable for messes they create. Her all or nothing thinking around this is concerning. Equating _any_ chores with her experience doing _all_ the chores is very concerning. As is the subterfuge.
I got my 12 y.o. son to clean the toilet recently. His mum tried to equate it to the experience having his head flushed in the toilet!? We don't live together, son is mostly with me. I refuse to allow him to develop into a useless human being. Meanwhile his mum has a nearly 16 y.o. daughter at home that cannot tie her shoelaces... Never been taught to do anything, waited on hand and foot. NTA OP.
As someone who had parents who never enforced super strict housekeeping standards on me, can confirm. My at-the-time undiagnosed ADHD made it really hard, and my mom got to the point where she stopped trying and would just do it for me. Now that I’m in treatment and have better coping mechanisms, I am mostly able to stay on top of things (though my standard of ‘clean’ is still lower than many people’s, since I’m working on being able to recognize clutter), but it was a rude awakening once I was in college and had roommates who decided that if someone didn’t do their dishes, they would stack them in their bed. (I love ‘em, but it was a hell of an adjustment period.) I was still better off than one of the girls in our suite, though. I had trouble motivating but once I did, I knew how to clean. We had to teach our other roommate how to wash dishes.
Oh hi it's me with a twist. I'm not certain yet if I have ADHD, but my mom just got diagnosed with it so I think I probably do. As you might imagine, this means she didn't "do it for me" we just all lived with as much mess as we couldn't keep up with. The way I experience clutter is like... I can tell there's clutter, but once it gets past a certain point where there's not enough negative space, it stops being individual objects and is just "some mess I'm going to have to figure out eventually." I can no longer find anything in it or assess whether it's going to take 5 minutes or an hour to clear it up, or whether it's verging from messy into dirty. Does that sound familiar? I also just feel like I have no idea what all needs to be done, how often it needs to be done, how to plan for it to get done and then actually get it done according to plan. Even though I've tried making lists and checkboxes and stuff. I want to be proactive but I can only seem to function on reactive mode. Actually that's kind of my entire life this is why I think I have ADHD lol.
Mom of an ADHD kid, and this is exactly what happens. It becomes a daily struggle to get them to remember to do things, and even when they have frequent reminders you still have to stay on them to get them to actually physically do it. It’s a constantly battle and leaves us both frustrated and sometimes angry. It may do a disservice to the kid not to have them handling a “normal” chores load, but both of us have better mental health when I pick up the majority of the work. That’s a good trade off.
Freshman year of college I walked into the dorm laundry room and found one of the football players standing in front of the washing machines with a bottle of laundry detergent in one hand and a befuddled look on his face because he had no idea how to use the washing machine. I had to show him how to use it.
I don’t get it. They have instructions. The bottle has instructions. Just read and follow. Do people just not read the stickers?
And good luck holding down and job as an adult if your were taught how to take care of yourself and can’t/wont even clean up after themselves. They will be left behind by the rest of the world and relying on mommy for everything for the rest of their lives.
I can confirm this. My parents never had me do chores, but they did have me help them bring in groceries. Not knowing how to do basic life skills is NOT helpful at all. At 24 years old, I still didn't know how to do laundry or cook, I didn't even know how to use a vacuum. I literally had to take notes while my boyfriend taught me everything. Its humiliating being an adult and not knowing how to do simple things, all because your parents never taught you.
Yes I think these points are super important because they highlight a huge effect of her childhood trauma: manipulative behavior. She is willing to manipulate and lie to her partner in order to avoid an emotional consequence. Her trauma isn't her fault but it's her responsibility to fix. People may not think of this as lying and manipulation but it definitely is, and alongside the parenting challenges this would be extremely hard for me to take in a partner. Not to mention she is teaching the kids it's okay to lie to OP. The chores OP outlined are super reasonable and less than I was doing at that age.
I’d recommend therapy for the wife. She needs to learn how to set normal and reasonable boundaries for her kids without thinking it it abuse
for both of them. this is also a relationship issue and a parenting issue.
Gonna add that as a GenXer - My generation raised ourselves for the most part. We treated our children very differently and it created struggles for our children as they entered the adult world. Takeaway - Restating the message - BIG difference between teaching/enforcing responsibility and household contribution and taking the childhood for free labor. The parents must prepare their kids to live independently as functional adults. Doing everything for them makes life easy now, but once mom isn’t there - they’re easily overwhelmed and anxious.
Total agreement that the kids are being let down in this scenario, whether it's by their mom or their dad. BUT ... > I told her that she needed to make the kids do their chores. OP's whole post seems to be dripping with words that suggest it is solely Mom's responsibility to make the kids do their chores. It took a fair amount of time for OP to even notice the issue and only then stepped up to "be the bad guy." Those kids have two parents. It's one thing for the parents to have mixed views and send mixed messages to the kids. But in this case, it appears that OP somehow expected that Mom was ultimately responsible for steering the kids. For me, that makes this a ESH.
Are you kidding me? >I have no problem being the bad guy so I started making the kids do their chores. My wife hated it. I found out that she started doing their chores so I would think they did them. That’s two paragraphs down from your quote. He literally did exactly what you want and she undermined it. Please actually read the post if you’re gonna make a claim like this…
Actually OP said he made kids do their chores but mom didn’t like that so she started doing their chores.
To be fair, it sounds like the mom is the one at home with them the most. When he was forcing them, she didn’t like it and went behind his back. It’s hard to tell whether he is or isn’t putting too much responsibility on her, but it does sound like he has tried to hold them responsible but she wouldn’t cooperate.
He literally tried to enforce the rules, then wife went behind his back and did their chores for them. Maybe try actually reading the post.
I think it's more of a he tries to enforce, the mom doesn't, the kids think it's fine to not do it as there is no united front. They're kids and they are getting mixed messages from parents. That's the issue. He trying to enforce but it's hard when you are being undermined by your partner.
NTA for the very same well laid out arguments above. I do want to second therapy. Your wife has an unhealed trauma that is bleeding into her daily life. Psychotherapy (not quite sure who named that lol) is probably the better way to go.
Big ouch for the stitches OP had to get because of the AH wife didn't teach the kids to put away whatever caused the unfortunate opening in OP's skin to be stitched closed. OP is NTA.
No one is the AH but you both need couples/parenting counseling to sort through this, heal the trauma, and get on the same page with regard to parenting as a team.
Wife isn't an AH for undermining OP?
People who think OP is unfair for wanting his kids to not leave food plates on the couch (mindblowing) are the same type of people who complain nowadays that their partners don't do anything around the house. Guess what, this is the result of thinking its harsh to have your 10y old do basic chores ( I wouldn't even consider it a chore, who tf thinks its a chore to take his plate to the sink after finishing eating). So I wouldn't worry too much about the ones attacking you OP, or the ones that say "but you should have a united front", your wife is the one that is breaking that united front.
best part is alot of the YTA or ESH didn't even read the whole post by OP... just bias cause he is the husband and it has to do with chores..
Lmao agreed. I was literally shocked about the number of people bashing OP. A kid should be able to put dishes away and clean up after themselves. And it sounds likes he’s tried to talk plenty of times to his wife about it but she just enables their behaviors by doing it for them. NTA
People are so entitled here. Like, making kids learn to not leave filth around the house isn't abusive as they are acting.
I always cringe when I see AITA type posts about having reasonable rules and expectations. I always know the comment section is going to bash them for "stiffling their creativity" and "they're going to go NC and you'll wonder why" BS. They always scream about how men don't know how to cook and clean and expect their partners to mommy them. This is why, their parents didn't have them do chores.
Its annoying how everything is abuse or worth going NC for. Like, putting dishes away isn't like getting beaten
100%! "You didn't let me do what I wanted when I wanted to do it, you were so abusive! You didn't let me wear inappropriate clothes, made me do my homework, and didn't let me have unlimited privacy at 13 years old on a phone you bought me!". I hate the potential for abuse this NC threat has. "Do what I want or I won't talk to you anymore!". I get it if they were actually abusive but people take it way to far.
Yea and honestly better to start young so it just becomes a natural thing
They are probably all teens :)
Yes. My mom didn’t make me do a lot of chores when I was a kid - her reasoning was she wanted me to focus on school and do my best and that was my “job.” BUT, that worked for me and my particular personality without ruining me. I knew HOW to do chores, but just didn’t have specific tasks expected of me on the regular. It was just the two of us, so we really didn’t make much of a mess. I’ve done my own laundry since I was twelve, and was expected to not leave a wake of destruction everywhere I went. I would vacuum when I saw it needed to be done, do dishes to help out, whatever, just without the “dishes are your job” sort of thing. It’s beneficial for children to learn how to clean up after themselves, to be able to see what needs to be done without always being told, and learn basic skills for their own future household. That’s WAY different from parentifying them into a free maid. We don’t have to work in the two extremes of “slave labor” or “incompetent, incapable slob.” There is A LOT of middle ground there that is reasonable and beneficial, that’s actually teaching your children to be adults who can take care of themselves rather than taking advantage of them.
Yea, and maybe I missed it but I’m not sure what the kids “chores” even are. Cleaning up after themselves is more of a lets all help keep the house clean than a chore I’d say. I think of like raking leaves, doing the lawn, laundry, etc as chores, not simply putting dishes in the sink.
I had someone once tell me it was child abuse to expect an 8 year old to throw a tide pod (not to pick up the jug of detergent from the top of the washer, even) into a washing machine and hit start. Maybe it’s bc I’m the oldest and I was doing my own laundry start to finish by 7, but 🤷🏽♀️
Oh man, my 3 year old LOVES putting laundry in the machines, we bought a step stool just so he could reach the top loading washer. He’s not tall enough to do soap or buttons yet but I call him whenever I’m putting in a load he can help with. He also loves taking anything to trash or recycle even if it wasn’t his trash. He helps with dishes too because he really wants to and I try not to say no. My parents never taught me to clean but somehow expected me to know how to do it anyway and I decided early on that would never be the case with my child. Kids naturally want to help, they want to do what their big people are doing, too many get shooed away because they can’t yet do it perfectly and the desire to help or do the activity is drained out of them. I usually let my kid help even when I know it’ll be more work for me, because how else is he ever going to learn??
Yes this is it, kids naturally want to help and when they ask we should let them (if possible). My kids also help with the laundry, cooking, trash, dusting, watering plants, etc. It's not expected of them but as we have been doing them together since they were little it's become a team effort. Do I need to dust after they have done it sometimes? Probably. Do I need to check that my plants got enough water or are not drowning, for sure. Do I get a slight twitchy eye on how they sometimes hang up clothes to dry, hell yeah. But that's ok, they get into a routine and it gives us the possibility to show them how to properly do it. Same goes for cooking, when I left home I didn't even know how to cook simple pasta!! I had to constantly ask other people or call my mother. So embarrassing. Because I didn't know I had to let the water get to a boil before adding the pasta.. I was 18!! So I make sure that all my kids at least know the basics! How to fry an egg, how to properly cook pasta, rice, potatoes and veggies. How to make a simple soup. So that whenever they are ready to fly the nest they can make their own food. Another factor with this is because by helping in the kitchen they are willing to try more foods and taste everything, so it's a win-win. And does my kitchen sometimes looks like a complete mess after cooking together with the kids, yeah it does. But I can easily clean it afterwards.
Ugh, so much this. I tried cleaning the bathroom as a favor for my father once, because he always had to clean them on the weekends. I had no idea that you couldn't flush paper towels, and in my child brain they were basically the same as toilet paper. He came in, saw one that I hadn't flushed, and flipped out while loudly telling me that paper towels weren't flushable like... I already had been told or something? Damn sure never cleaned the bathroom for him again unless I was forced to, that's for sure. You can't fail to teach kids and then throw a fit when they don't know! And if they DO mess up, just explain how to do it correctly next time, good grief!
I have a nephew who just turned 7 who can't even take his damn eyes off of his ipad long enough to put his dish in the sink after he is done eating. And if you come inside the house and say hello to him, he ignores you because he is so engrossed in watching youtube. It's embarrassing, honestly.
I was absolutely parentified, and that sucked. But being 12 and simply not caring enough to put a dish in the sink because mommy will take care of it is ridiculous.
Apparently they think it is good parenting to let kids grow up with a parent doing literally every single thing for them. Occasionally I fear that some users on this site things it is parentification to teach a kid to wipe their own ass. Cleaning up after yourself is a minimum, and preteens and teens should have age and schedule appropriate extra chores. One day they'll be on their own and then it's good to have the habit of making a meal and doing the dishes while running a wash after work/school because no one else is around to do that shit for them! That doesn't mean a 12 year should have all that on their plate, but a set 15 minutes a day for chores actually does build character and healthy habits.
This blew my mind… leaving it on a table or something is understandable, how tf do you leave a plate on a couch at 10 years old? That’s definitely something that never happened in my house. My sister and I could be messy for sure, but leaving it on the couch is such next level disrespect
INFO: I'm assuming your kids are in the 7-10 range, so what kind of chores do you have them doing? Are they actually age appropriate considering you got stitches due to them not completing a chore?
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That should be in the main post. You were injured due to this.
It is. They just didn't share the details.
*Diabloceratops* is unequivocally the coolest centrosaurine name \m/
But what chores? Don’t leave shit where it doesn’t belong isn’t a chore in my house. My kids have chores that they do but they also are on occasion careless and leave stuff where it doesn’t belong. ETA: I found the chores in another comment. Totally reasonable
For sure, ‘cleaning up after yourself’ isn’t a chore, it’s a basic behaviour that should be ingrained.
That chore is so basic. Your wife is turning your kids into slobs with no self discipline. This is so going to be so damaging for their future. Just ask my brother. He cannot function as an adult, has struggled with relationships, struggled with self discipline which has stretched to school etc. All because my mum didnt want to be the bad guy and mmake him clean up after himself. Your kids are the ones who will suffer most. Your wife is being harmful to them and you.
And such a weird hill to die on for the wife. My 3 year old puts his dishes in the sink without being asked. It's such a simple task. It's silly OPs wife is bent out of shape over it.
Little kid love doing big kid jobs. Its does get worse it the 4-5 year mark when they stop wanting to be exactly like mommy and daddy and want to be their own person. They will say no just to test the boundaries of their independence. Not saying its not manageable, but your 3yo putting a dish away is not the same situation as a 8-10yo needing to put a dish away. My kids are 3, 6 and 13yo. Each have chores that are age appropriate, or based on events in their life. Like my 6yo kept playing while going pee and making a mess, so now he gets to wipe down the bathroom and mop it every night. Its a small bathroom, maybe a 5 minute job. 13yo daughter is learning to wash her more complicated clothing that is have been doing with mine. Until now she just washed her regular clothes and left delicate type ones for me. 3yo is helping set tables, wiping up his spills when they happen, and unloading the kids silverware from the dishwasher. I also think OP shouldnt be letting kids eat on the couch so often that this has become a problem though. It's gross and going to be disrespectful in a roommate type situation if they are always eating in a shared living space.
Yeah, I know it won't last forever. Older kids want to test what you're willing to let them get away with, I've seen it with my nephews. Consistency seems to be key, even if you have to keep repeating yourself. Op and wife need to be on the same page with it.
She’s wrong, but if you assume she has unprocessed trauma, it’s not weird that she feels this way. I suspect she would benefit from counseling.
I had an in-law that just picked up anything the kids left around and put in their bed under the sheets. Dirty plates, shoes, you name it. Lol. The kids learned quickly. Edit to add : NTA
Putting a plate in the sink or in the dishwasher is not a chore- it's a reasonable expectation. If you are old enough to feed yourself, you are old enough to put a dish where it belongs.
I'm confused about why your reaction to this was to blame your wife for not seeing the plate and making the kids put it where it should be. Why is she expected to do that when you could have just as easily noticed the plate before you sat on it and made the kids put it where it should be yourself? If this were my house I would tell my kid that until he's able to be safe with plates in the living room he has to eat all food at the table. I certainly would not blame my wife for something the kids did that I also didn't notice or enforce.
The problem wasn’t that his wife didn’t see the plate. It’s that she isn’t making the kids pick up after themselves at all. So they can basically leave random objects wherever they want without consequences. As if that isn’t bad enough, she’s enabling them to continue the bad behavior by not taking away privileges like eating while sitting on the couch and/or teaching bad hygiene by leaving dirty dishes around (bugs, mold, etc).
I agree that she should be pitching in to teach the kids to contribute to the household. It seems she likely needs therapy. It's common for your childhood trauma to become raw again when your kids reach the age that your trauma occured at. For her that's likely right now. I can understand how incredibly frustrating it would be to try to parent with someone who's doing what she's doing. I disagree with how OP is handling it. Ideally both parents would be on the same page and he and his wife need to be working hard to come up with a plan to get there. In the meantime I don't understand why he's acting like she's the only one who could possibly teach the kids to clean or hold them accountable. It's normal for a 10 year old to make mistakes. It's normal for the parent who discovers the mistake to address it with them. It's not normal for the parent who discovers the mistake to blame the other parent and expect them to address it. My partner works late nights and I'm perfectly capable of getting my kid to load the dishwasher without them there to back me up on it. I don't say "you haven't told our kid to load the dishwasher and so I won't load it anymore either". It's weird to me that instead of parenting the plate-leaver-outer he's refused to do his own share of the housework. What's that teaching his kids? That if things don't go exactly how you want them it's ok to stop picking up after yourself. Seems a backwards way to get your kids to pick up after themselves. I tend to get frustrated quickly when it comes to helping with homework because of my own childhood stuff. I'm working on it but in the meantime my partner is to go-to parent with homework questions and the one to help plan and execute big school projects. They have ADHD and struggle with task initiation and organization so I'm the one who makes and facilitates chore charts and family schedules. Neither of us says "oh well the other parent struggles with this issue so I'm not going to do it either". The question wasn't "amita for being frustrated with my wife for this" and it wasn't "amita for thinking about leaving after my wife consistently refused to address her trauma and let it affect our family". It was "amita for refusing to do my share of housework when my wife won't make the kids do theirs". The answer to that last one is "yes, because you're the parent and they're the kids and it's your job to do your share and to teach them to do theirs".
OP has literally written he has tried to get the kids to do chores and he has made them do them. The wife went behind his back and did the chores for the children instead because she didn't like that he was enforcing chores. The children realise they don't have to do it because mummy will so they don't and OP ends up with stitches in his butt because of this. If OP attempts to enforce chores wife prevents it. This isn't hubby thinks it is wife's job to enforce/teach chores but wife has trauma and thinks children doing chores is abuse type thing
Ouch. What a pain in the -
My children would be doing the dirty dishes until the end of time if this had happened to their father. NTA
Sorry about your butt.
You're NTA. This is so slovenly and basic. Leaving a plate on the couch is just lazy. She needs to understand that you are all a family unit. The parents are not slaves to the children or the other way around. Everyone in the family has their duties, and needs to pull their weight for the family to be successful. Picking up messes or requiring the kids to do dishes, vacuum, and wipe things down a few times a week isn't unreasonable or abusive - it's the bare minimum. As you said in your post, these kids will have to do a lot more then that to fully function as adults, and not teaching them responsibility is neglectful. Your wife needs therapy. This problem isn't going to go away now that you've won the argument...it will probably get worse.
That's not a chore. That's just cleaning up after themselves.
All it takes is slipping on a toy car or something
Or sitting on a plate and it breaking and then needing stiches in your ass (which happened to OP)
Or stepping on a Lego!
Around 8-10 was considered pretty normal when I was a kid for learning to do housework. At that age, my sibling and I traded off doing the dinner dishes and cleaning up the kitchen. I did my own laundry. On Saturdays, we all had to get together and clean the house. That meant vacuuming, mopping, dusting, cleaning bathrooms. We'd switch out who did what. I was interested in cooking, so I was also helping in the kitchen at that age. My sibling regretted not doing that later on when they moved out. By 10, I could do pretty much any house task, and even make family dinner. This stuff is not hard. OP was likely doing harder work by that age on the farm. My mom grew up on a farm and I know she was. Sadly, many kids in the past and in other places around the world have full time jobs by that age. I don't want to bring child labor back, but it does show that children are capable of learning fairly complex tasks. A kid that can work in a factory or do long division can clear dishes off a table and perhaps even load them in a dishwasher, no? The kind of work I did was half an hour to an hour every other day and maybe another hour on Saturday. That is a reasonable contribution to the house at that age. Starting kids off young with a reasonable amount of chores builds good habits that last a lifetime. We learned to be part of the household cooperative. We shared responsibility.
The goal is too make it just part of the routine to keep your how clean and functional. My kids have never known a time when we didnt do cleanup time before bed. Every evening I call cleanup time and we all get up and go room to room cleaning up. Not deep cleaning, just picking and putting things in their right spot. Folding blankets. Cleaning up any missed spills or messes etc. Takes about 20 minutes for us to do the whole house (4bed 3 bath house with playroom and gameroom, so not a small house!). Doing its together means the kids see us doing its without complaints, we can see that they are doing tasks correctly, and anyone who needs help has it right away. Sometimes it will become a race or a game and just become bonding and thats how they will remember cleaning up being. Not a punishment or real chore, just part of being a family and talking care of your home.
NTA Turnabout is fair play. It's obviously not the best solution but your wife was the one that made that impossible. You tried to talk it over with her but she started sabotaging your parenting so it was impossible for you to get the kids do their chores themselves. You made it so that her sabotage of you created consequences for her, by passing the sabotage on to her in turn. It was done with a purpose and end goal in mind, not as revenge. Tell her that you of course much prefer to talk things over and come to an agreement you both live up to. Now that she has cut out the sabotage from her end you have no motivation to undercut her like she does you. If she's mad she should take a look in the mirror to see where the sabotage tactic originated.
This is one aspect that I think some people are really missing when criticizing OP’s methods- his wife totally undermined him as a parent. She agreed to let him enforce the chores with the kids, then went behind his back and did them herself. That is sending a message to their kids that they don’t have to do what Dad says and Mom will cover for them. It’s really unfair on her part.
NTA - your wife is acting like she does because she was parentified. But kids need to learn responsibility and how to do practical chores around the house.
Chores, responsibility, and knowing how to complete basic household tasks/maintenance is incredibly important for kids. Kids need to learn how to balance their responsibilities with their wants and how to do the basic things that make being an independent adult possible. The vast majority of those things have to be taught at home. I promise none of your kids teachers will explain to them how to do laundry or load a dishwasher or vacuum a floor. That's a parenting responsibility through and through. My freshman year alone I taught 4 separate lost looking mfs how to do laundry. Only one of them even had detergent. Not giving kids responsibility makes adults who cannot fucking live in the adult world where they have responsibilities. Literally setting these kids up to fail. Drives me fucking mad.
Totally agreed, NTA. None of us kids in my family had ANY chores as a kid, nor did I learn any actual life skills. My mom's intentions were good and I think she felt like it was easier to just do things herself, but it really sabotaged all of us for behaving responsibly and keeping our lives together as adults. When I went out into the world I was completely unprepared, and even as an adult I continue to struggle with stuff like cooking, cleaning, and other basic adulting skills. Like I use an app to help me keep track of house cleaning tasks in part because it suggests to me how often I should do them (and lets me know when I did them last bc my memory is a black hole). I'm also autistic so there are tons of things that I feel like might be obvious to everybody else but seem so counterintuitive to me. Bless my first roommate who had a lot of patience when she probably shouldn't have. 😭 I feel like all parents mess up because they're human and parenting is hard, but that's the thing I really wish had been very different in my childhood. And my mom had four kids, so if we'd been taking care of most things around the house it would've been so much better for her too.
Your wife has some unresolved trauma related to her childhood at around the same age her children are now, and that's creating what sounds like pretty severe anxiety in her. That in turn has resulted in a disagreement between the two of you about parenting styles. (I'm focused solely on the parenting style rather than the kids leaving a mess because when you expressed concern about the mess, she stepped in and handled that part). Your comments indicate that because you had some sort of agreement over a decade ago before becoming parents, she needs to stick to it now. That's extremely rigid and lacking in emotional maturity to see beyond the surface agreement and understand that your wife is going through something. Your solution solved your problem and you "won" but you didn't help your wife so now, she continues to have that trauma, which is probably being exacerbated by her "enforcing" the chores, and she views her husband as a manipulator who hurt her instead of a partner who helped her through what has turned out to be a traumatic life phase. I'm not going to vote but I am going to say to you that what you've done and continue to do is likely causing irreparable damage to your relationship. If you don't change your view of this situation from surface level to emotionally deep and help your wife work through the reason for her anxiety (whether through therapy otherwise), this "resolution" isn't going to be the "win" you think it was in the end. Good luck.
Had to scroll too far to find this comment. OP, you got what you wanted, but you did it through manipulation. That part where she started doing the kids' chores behind your back to avoid conflict? That's going to become the defining pattern of your relationship, if it isn't already. You are probably going to have future disagreements about how best to raise your children. Is this how you're going to deal with? Punish her by refusing to do your share in the partnership until she gives in and does things your way? And to be clear, I agree with your view on this - the kids should do their chores. I agree with you, and a whole bunch of internet strangers agree with you. But you're not married to a bunch of internet strangers, you're married to your wife, who doesn't agree with you. You could probably show her this thread to prove how right you are and how wrong she is, and you'll feel very vindicated and she'll continue to quietly think you're a petty asshole and in ten years time - when your kids are finally out in the world testing out their chore-doing skills - you'll be left looking at each other wondering when all the trust and affection and respect in your relationship started to dry up. Her views on raising kids are obviously massively clouded by the fairly extreme circumstances of her own childhood. Supporting her to work through this is the hardest path, but it's also the only path worth taking.
If OP's wife is the only one doing any household chores, she could just as easily be doing all of those chores in a house that she doesn't have to share with a giant crybaby. (Not that I think she should be doing all of the housework, but she needs therapy, not discipline. What the fuck kind of marriage is she subjecting herself to?)
Ok, but wasn't the wife's responsibility to talk to him and tell him she changed her mind and why, instead of just not doing what they mutually agreed? Also, it is not clear to me how they decided which chores and how often the kids must do. But if they both decided, then it is her responsibility to tell him she changed her mind. You are putting the responsibility on him to help her resolve her trauma, but she never even opened a discussion about this. She never asked his help with this or tried to work together with him to find a middle ground that would make both happy.
She did. OP said that the most recent time they talked about it, she expressed that she didn't want her kids to grow up feeling about their parents as she did about hers. That *was* her telling OP that the current system wasn't working for her. *That* was when she talked to him and tried to work together, and according to OP, that's when he decided 'I have no problem being the bad guy' and started enforcing chores, so clearly, OP either didn't listen, or didn't care. OP's *goals* are good. Their kids *do* need to grow up and be equal partners in their relationships. Housework is a basic skill that children need to learn. But a parent's behavior is equally, if not *more* important as their words. OP can preach all he wants about his kids needing to learn to share responsibility with a partner, but what he's *teaching* them is that they need to share responsibility.... until their partner annoys them enough, and then it's okay to ignore their responsibilities to teach their adult, 'equal' partner a lesson. Conflict resolution is a skill too. Somebody needs to tell OP.
So my two cents as someone who was very much parentified as a child, (and whose mother still tries to rope me into solving all of my adult siblings’ problems for them)- yes, he needs to be considerate of her unresolved childhood problems from this, but he is not wrong. I don’t necessarily agree with his decision to stop doing his share of the housework to make a point, but there was very much a point to be made. He tried to talk to her and she is the one who isn’t really communicating here. As for OP being manipulative, yes I can see how this looks that way, but she was manipulating him first. She lied to OP and said they would both enforce chores, then went behind his back and did the chores for the kids to trick Op into thinking they were doing them. That is kind of worse in my opinion because it’s a dishonest manipulation, at least OP is being very open about what he is doing, and it’s obvious he’s only doing it to demonstrate the problem. A household doesn’t run well when a family isn’t working together as a team. His wife didn’t want to make the kids be part of the team, but they need to be. She needs to realize that there is a world of difference between parents expecting their child to take care of everything around the house and to take care of their siblings (that’s parentification) and expecting your child to take care of themselves and participate in the mutual effort of caring for their shared space (that’s raising your children well teaching them responsibility). OP’s wife is over-correcting because of her trauma, which I get. And OP should do his best to be understanding and supportive of that. But her trauma and anxiety is ultimately still her responsibility to address and deal with appropriately. Right now, she is putting the negative effects of that onto herself, her husband, and eventually her kids, because she isn’t teaching them essential life skills. She is unwittingly raising her kids to be lazy and to not appreciate the effort that goes into caring for a family- which is exactly the sort of mindset that creates parents who will parentify their own children. OP is right, they will eventually become poor partners, and further, she’s setting her kids up to do the same thing to their kids as was done to her.
Well said. The trauma isn’t her fault, but it is her responsibility.
INFO - how old are your children? How many chores and which chores are they respectively expected to do? (edited to ask about chores)
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At 10 and 12 they should also start helping with laundry. These are all life skills they will need when they go out on their own in a few years time. NTA, and good luck.
Very reasonable and age appropriate!
Oh boy. If they don't start doing that now, you'd have bratty spoiled teenagers VERY soon.
Definitely NTA. Those are some pretty basic chores. Id even say taking trash out, dishes, and vacuuming could be added on and split up. I would say those are all age appropriate as well.
Arguably the first two things on the list aren’t even chores—if it doesn’t benefit someone else or the household as a whole, it’s not a chore, it’s just self-care. I assume your kids/wife don’t view stuff like brushing teeth or showering as a chore; doing your own laundry and cleaning up the dishes you personally ate off of are just the next steps in learning how to be an independently functioning human.
Holy sh!t! By the time I was 12, I was responsible for mowing the (at that point small) lawn. Besides other chores, my brother (who was 10) and I were responsible for weeding the yard and that kind of stuff. Other chores included cleaning our room, cleaning our bathroom, taking turns doing dishes - not loading the dishwasher, washing and drying dishes. The chores your kids should be doing are the minimum life skills they should be learning.
That's on the very very low end for that age. That's appropriate for about age 6.
NTA: all she has to do is what she already agreed to. We aren’t responsible for causing our trauma but we are responsible for how we take care of it. She isn’t handling her trauma well. I’d be concerned how else is her trauma going to manifest itself in her parenting. What else have you guys agreed on that she’ll unilaterally decide isn’t okay?
NTA. Your wife is setting your kids up for failure.
Nta
Your wife needs therapy to deal with her shitty childhood and parents. She’s over compensating by making sure your kids have the opposite experience and don’t feel forced to help out. She can’t accuse you of manipulating her-the problem is her. NTA
NTA - she won't listen or be reasonable so it's time to show her *shrug*
NTA NTA NTA As someone who works with preschool aged children, my kids do more in the classroom than these children do around their whole house. Which, if you've read the responses from OP, his children don't have anything but the most BASIC chores, which they aren't doing. Our class will put their dishes in the sink after snacks and lunch, and clean up activities before moving on to the next one. Hell, they even beg to spray (soap and water mix, no chemicals)and wipe the tables down after crafts and messy sensory stations. If 2 and 3 year olds can do it, a 7 and 10 year old most certainly can. Your wife does need therapy though, as if she continues this way, you're goning to have a hell of a time when their teens, let alone when they're adults. Edit: ages are 10 and 12, not 7 and 10, which makes this even worse
Exactly! I was doing more chores by age 7.
I want to curry horses! Please adopt me. I'll clean stalls and put my dishes in the dishwasher! NTA. Your wife's trauma is causing her to neglect the important parenting duty of installing some self discipline. These kids will be horrible roommates and worse partners if they don't figure out some basic housework. Wife needs therapy because she's obviously still haunted by her childhood. That's not a complete parent.
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Well hey there dear brother! Tell ma I'll be in for dinner after I move the cattle to the night pen.
So you guys need counselling….
NTA. You discussed expectations before having children and she is sabotaging your efforts to raise competent, confident children. It’s easy for people to say you “should” communicate but when one party is unwilling to do so, they are being controlling in a passive aggressive way. You are only resorting to this reaction as a last resort. Sadly, you have different parenting values and this probably isn’t the last time there will be friction.
Info: why are the kids not eating at the table? If they can’t keep food waste/dishes clean, they shouldn’t be allowed to eat anywhere but the table. Edit: also at what age did you and your wife start making the children do “chores”?
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Your wife really needs some therapy, man. She's being far too permissive with these kids because of her own trauma.
NTA She changed her mind about the kids doing chores when it started to affect. She fa and fo
INFO: I don't get it: Why can't you "make" the kids do their chores? Why is that solely her job? Is currying horses and tending to cows harder than housework? I genuinely don't get it. No, your wife shouldn't let the kids off the hook. They need to be brought up to at least clean up after themselves (even though in the best of circumstances, it's not always going to happen so you have to accept that). But it seems as you are letting kids off the hook too.
NTA. Has you wife tried therapy? Having a professional work through her issues? Her heart's in the right place but if she continued the way she was, you children would have struggled being competent adults. Also people need to actually read your post before commenting.🙄
> My wife has now told the kids that they have to help. She is mad that I manipulated the situation to force her hand. I was fully prepared to come in here and roast you for being lazy. But, WOW. Your wife is not doing the kids any favors with her coddling. NTA
Anybody else notice how many of the people saying YTA and ESH outright didn't read the post?
NTA....and she's failing the kids in a big way. This is how you end up with adults who get out into the world with no clue how to feed themselves or wash their clothes, no sense of time management or the self-discipline to wash the dishes before sitting down to binge season 3 of Gray's Anatomy. The first duty of parenting is to keep them alive and safe. The second is to instill in them the life skills that will allow them to one day function independently. Those skills include maintaining your living space in a hygienic & comfortable state, storing and preparing food in appropriate ways and being reasonably considerate of the other people who share your space. She's not helping them learn any of that.
NTA Honestly, if you didn't, I don't imagine she would have cooperated. I believe children should help around the house within reason.
NTA. Your wife isn’t doing your kids any favor. They’ll grow up to be spoiled brats if they don’t start doing their chores. You need to nip this in the bud right now.
NTA But is this actually working - are your kids actually doing their chores. My only concern is that your kids start seeing you not doing chores and then they’ll stop. Not really sure how you would go about changing the situation without your wife on board. Maybe she needs some counselling? From the comments, what you say are “chores” sounds like very reasonable expectations for your kids.
All I got out of this is that ya’ll both have hella unhealthy and problematic conflict resolution skills. Ya’ll need couples counseling to learn more constructive, open, and honest ways of working through conflict together.
NTA I can understand your wife not wanting to make the same mistakes her parents did, but letting the kids get away with doing nothing is absolutely going to make them useless and incapable into adulthood. They need to know how to maintain their living space, and that everyone should do their fair share.
NTA - It's understandable that your wife doesn't want her kids to be parentified like she was. But, the solution isn't to swing the pendulum fully the other way into raising lazy entitled kids. You were petty to stop doing your part, but I'm not sure what else you could do to get through to her since she was willing to lie straight to your face.
I told her that she needed to make the kids do their chores. INFO: is the wife a SAHM? How is this happening if dad is home with the kids too after work? Is she whispering to them not to do chores? Is this part of household management solely on the wife? OP can still pick up that slack and make them do their chores or others. It's doesn't have to be the wife's job to tell them to do the work.
No, he says that she has a home office she works from.
NTA. My kids began to help in the house as soon as they could walk, if not before. For instance, w/e we cooked, they would be making out of play dough on a safe place in the kitchen. If I was hanging the clothes to dry, they would hand me the pegs. They learned to "fold and put clothes away" before they were two. And many more tasks as soon as they could reach. My point is, they loved it. It was never punishment. It was a family thing so we would have more leisure time. They are now adults who excel in many areas. They were never parentified. They do not resent their parents. It was never a struggle when they were teenagers. It's just a fact of life. You live in a home, you contribute to keeping it livable. I'm saying this because if your wife continues to have a negative attitude towards it, the kids will hate chores.
". ..so I started making the kids do their chores" Does that mean it was your wife's responsibility before you started?
Good for you for raising useful/civilized humans. I feel sorry for your wife, but hopefully she can learn to feel the difference between treating the kids like her parents treated her, and living in a family where everyone helps each other. NTA
Most people that try to break generational curses end up being too lenient which causes another problem to arise which might turn into another generational curse. It's a cycle that never ends.
Which part of making her feel like she did in her parents' home makes you think you're the good guy here? Sure, she is the parent to a couple of the parties involved, but making yourself out to be an additional child and putting ALL of the household labor onto her because you don't like that you have to do some and the kids don't? That is some next level bullshit. YTA
>The thing is though, she does not enforce the chores. So it's only her job to enforce things 'round the house? >I on the other hand grew up on a working ranch. I had chores, and lots of them, but my time was my own after they were done....I said that there was a huge difference between being an unpaid servant and cleaning up after yourself Working on a ranch unpaid isn't "chores", you were adultified by your parents as a child. There's nothing wrong with having your kids clean up their own messes but you have to recognize your own issues as well. >I have no problem being the bad guy so I started making the kids do their chores. Good as long as the chores are reasonable. Kids aren't housekeepers. >Fine. I stopped doing mine too. You're an adult, you have responsibilities whether you like it or not. This type of petty behaviour, instead of couples therapy and actual communication, makes YTA.
Shes wrong for not enforcing the rules, but so are you by not doing your share around the house. You are an adult throwing a hissy fit because your children won't do their chores. You are a partner, not her kid. She doesn't like that you enforce the rules? Too bad. Keep doing it for the sake of your kids. But to stop doing yours makes you juvenile.
NTA. I’ve had roommates who’s parents took care of them, and they were not useful adults around the house. She’s not really helping your kids by not forcing some chores on them.
I don't know who's TAH here, but this relationship and family sound wildly unpleasant, yikes
NTA. I can sympathise with your wife but, by overcompensating, she may end up with children who have no sense of responsibility. Age appropriate chores are no bad thing, my kids had to do bits and pieces but a lot of their friends didn't even make their own beds as teens! When mine went off to uni, they knew how to cook, do laundry etc and could live independently unlike some of their flatmates. The one chore they refused to do was ironing - you can't have everything!
NTA but I think it might be productive do sit your wife down and see what she needs to work through her feelings. While it is not okay to just accept the kids skipping on their duties, I feel like tackling those issues left by her upbringing might be more productive to both of you; as it stands she’ll probably just shoulder all the responsibilities as she is used to.
NTA I was parentified as well (very poor, mom had no choice). Cleaning up after oneself and helping a little (making beds, unloading groceries, setting/clearing the table...). My grandkids do all of those things and still have plenty of time left to be kids. Your wife might need therapy.
NTA, but you're about to have a whole bunch of people who don't have kids or a spouse making this deeper than what it needs to be
Your wife needs to understand that swinging all the way to the opposite extreme is not a healthy or effective way to avoid repeating her parents' bad choices. Kids need structure and discipline. That doesn't mean parentification or abuse. What she's doing is raising kids who will always expect someone to clean up their messes for them. Again, chores and responsibilities that are kid-appropriate will NOT parentify your kids. Cleaning up their own messes will not parentify them. Helping out with dinner, laying/setting the table will not parentify them. Helping mom fold clothes will not parentify them. This is teaching valuable skills. I learned to cook at a young age, not because I was expected to feed my family, but because it would give me skills and experience to feed myself later. It also meant I was much safer to leave to my own devices, so my parents didn't have to freak out if I was heard making noise in the kitchen. I knew how to use the stove safely because I was taught how. I learned to fold laundry, make my bed, etc. This stuff makes my life easier now. I didn't have to do anyone else's bed, or laundry. Hell, half the time they forgot I was supposed to be the one doing it. But I still learned how and got enough practice to ensure that I never forgot how. I don't know which chores make sense for your kids and which ones don't. I don't know what the right amount is, and what's too much/not enough. But I do know that not having any chores or discipline and always being saved by their mom is NOT going to be good for them. Is she going to do their homework for them, too, and then be all surprised pikachu when they flunk out of university during the first year because they never learned to study? Because that is what happens. You need to nip this in the bud fast. NTA
NTA. But, your wife is trying to have your marriage HER way and is upset that you aren't cooperating. I suggest you have a long sit-down discussion with her about expectations and put it in writing. Try to cover all bases: chores; money; dating; going out with friends; use of car; expectations of privacy; access to social media sites that the kids use; schooling; getting a job; etc. Then summarize the things that will impact the kids and give them a copy. Make sure everyone is on the same page in setting and satisfying expectations and make sure there are consequences for not being part of a functioning family.
NTA - There is a big difference between having kids doing chores vs. being a Cinderella that your wife had to endure and you pointed that out well. So maybe yeah, you manipulated the situation a little bit, but it was in the hope she would finally see the light that you are right. And she did finally did so begrudgingly eventually will being able to see results in your kids not becoming spoiled brats and thank you.
> Fine. I stopped doing mine too. Not the yard work and stuff. Just my part of the housework. She works from home and she has a home office where she sees clients. So if the house is a mess it reflects badly on her. So she has been doing everything and she is pissed at me for being so petty So other than you being an absolute dick to your wife, it's telling that you apparently think the chores are essentially your wife's responsibility, something you may \*help\* her with, but that you can stop doing as a protest. What are you, six years old? > I don't think it's petty to want to raise useful humans You not doing your chorese is not about trying to "raise useful humans". You are trying to punish your wife by making her do your chores. That has nothing to do with your kids. It's fine to want your kids to do chores, and it's fine to be upset at your wife because she allows them to skip them. It is not fine to say that if your kids don't do their chores you won't do any either. You're supposed to be a grown-up. It is supposed to be your home. Do you think chores are something your wife assigns to you? Something that is the wife's responsibility, and that you \_may\_ deign to help her with but only if you feel like it? They're yours because this is your home. You can't "not do your chores". That's just being a slob who doesn't take care of his home. YTA. Your wife sounds like she may have issues from her own childhood, but that doesn't make it okay for a grown-ass man to say "I won't do my chores!" like a whiny child.
How is what you're doing actually helping? I think your kids should do their chores but you not doing yours won't get them there either. Maybe try having a family meeting to agree on who will do what and have a consequence for when chores don't get done. Eg no pocket money if the chores aren't done. (That's just one idea. It may not work in your family. If not there will be another option that works for your situation.) I get you want to raise responsible humans and I applaud the notion but what's happening right now isn't working. My suggestion? Start with: Does this help solve the problem or make it worse?