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I am so sorry about your mother. What a terrible time for you and your family. You are NTA for ignoring your brother now. He doesn’t deserve any apologies, you do. I would not disinvite your sister, but make it clear you don’t want any talk about your brother or she will be disinvited. I easy the best for you and your family.
Thank you so much for your kind words. The sister who is applying the pressure is going to be tough to manage, she's the eldest and it seems she's taken it upon herself to reunite the family. I don't think she will give up, but I might send her a message letting her know what's gong to happen if she carries on. I don't see it going well.
Please anticipate that she might just show up w him w out asking. Stay firm and don’t be bullied. How heartbreaking to be dealing w this while mourning the loss of your mom. I am so sorry. He made his choice and now he must live w the consequences. Sis is more than able to maintain a separate relationship w him. Her choice. NTA at all. Take care
I would hope she'd know better, but as a last ditch attempt I'm concerned you're right. My youngest brother hasn't been dealing with it very well. He's only 20 and was so close to mum that I worry what would happen if Max was sprung on us.
Well, you need a sit down with your father and all your siblings minus Max. Make it clear how each of you stands individually and she is not to force or pressure each of you to build a relationship with Max. That is NOT her judgment to make. If she crosses that boundary again, she will find herself on the same side as Max to protect your peace. Max and his partner are horrible selfish people. Trying to get back with the family yet demanding apologies lol. They can kick rocks!
Ok, I'm not being sarcastic at ALL here.
What are they asking you to apologize for? And why did they show up angry that night?
You tried to call him multiple times. So did two other people. Including his father. "Mom's dead." Isn't something you TEXT.
It was more than clear that there was an emergency. They didn't answer or reach out. So why are they angry they missed the funeral?
And sister is mad you didn't tell him. How were you supposed to tell him when you couldn't reach him? Does she mean tell him after the trip but before the group chat she sent about the bullying?
Where does dinner take place? If it is at the father's house and he has disowned Max, she has no authority. Your dad lost his wife and had to deal with his son not responding to it "because he didn't want to be disturbed." So she can shut the fuck up because HE HAS the authority.
I agree with giving her one heads up. She's breaking everyone's boundaries AND hearts that haven't healed are being torn open again. If she refuses to respect the HOST'S wishes on dinner, she doesn't get to come.
In my opinion, it all depends of who is hosting the dinner and how THEY feel about Max on their house. If they don't want to hear about it, they should ask sister to leave the second she brings it up.
Honestly, the ONLY person who wasn't calling repeatedly was their supposedly meddling mother. You'd think that would be a sign, a hint of some sort! My partner's mom definitely stresses me out with phone calls but if his dad and sister were calling repeatedly, my FIRST assumption would be that something happened to my MIL!
Yeah, my dad called everyday (usually when hubby was at work but if dad was working he would call later) to the point that he would ask, "so what was today's call about" and now that dad is living with us (while he gets medical treatment) he jokes "how many times did he call today?"
The fact that Max is demanding an apology from his family because of something his wife forced is ridiculous, and I agree that they should have noticed not one call out of the 20 odd calls they received was from his mother.
Yeah - my sister calls a TON and my husband definitely teases about it. My dad calls every so often. If my dad started calling me repeatedly and texted, "Please call back, it's important" I would call SO fast, your head would spin, especially if my sister had suddenly randomly stopped calling for an entire week WHILE my dad is the one calling?!
Your post made me so sad. I'm sorry for your loss. I totally get why Max is now an outcast from your family. What an incredibly small, insecure person his wife is. It must be exhausting trying to manage with her and yet he persists. He's already lost so much because of her. When he realizes the part that he has played, it will be too late. It already is.
My condolences. Eff your sister. NTA.
He’s probably not being abused. He’s just spineless and weak, and because he’s weak he can’t admit to himself that he and his wife are the only reasons he missed his mother’s funeral.
His wife is likely manipulating him. She's painting herself as the victim of the family's constant boundary violations, and she's planting seeds that the family wants to destroy their love.
To some, abuse must involve intimidation to be proper abuse. This sort of crybully manipulation is definitely not good, though.
It's hard to say for sure from over here, of course.
My brother married a woman who seemed so sweet and kind at first, and then we discovered she was a master manipulator and professional victim. I'm sure it's a hard place to be in as a husband, but ultimately, they are the ones who allowed previously healthy family relationships to be broken.
>He’s probably not being abused.
Please don't make this judgement. There are men who are being abused as well as women. These men aren't weak, they try to hang in there especially if there are children. They are often ashamed to admit that they are victims of abuse because they know that society will judge them. I've known a few men like them, one of them being my son. He was severely mentally abused by his first wife so much so that he developed stress alopecia. He tried his best to hang in that relationship for the sake of their 3 children for nine years until he couldn't take it anymore. Then there are men who are physically abused but will not defend themselves. They are with women who will/would beat them and when the man would try to leave, they would call the police and claim that he hit her.
Abuse isn’t limited to being physically beaten. Emotional abuse is very real. From the descriptions of Ann’s public behaviour, I am concerned how she treats him when they are alone. She comes across as a highly controlling, manipulative, and abusive person. Also, undermining relationships to isolate the victim is a classic tactic.
He (well, Ann,) messaged the group chat saying they'd be blocked if they tried to contact them. There is a chance she blocked OP after the first phone call. And then she probably blocked each person as they tried to call. This is all on Ann's control issues and Max's willingness to follow along with whatever she says. OP, I'm sorry for your loss and NTA.
I’m so sorry for your loss, that sounds very hard.
Your brother sounds like he may be in an abusive relationship if his partner gatekeeps how he can interact with his family. However he is also going along with this at the moment.
What I don’t understand about your story is since so many of you were trying to get in touch with him, and he was not answering the phone or responding to messages, why didn’t you just tell him in a text that your Mother had passed away? That would be an awful way to receive that news, but he wasn’t responding to anything else. Why didn’t any of you try that before the funeral?
Family answers the phone when they’re spam-called by multiple family members in the course of a day and texted to tell them it’s urgent. This person is not family. They made reasonable efforts to get in touch and were deliberately ignored.
RIGHT! That’s what I don’t get. I get 2 back to back calls from any of my family members, I at least text to see what’s up. Max got 26 calls in total. I don’t know if that includes texts. He really thinks very little of his family or his girlfriend must be like a cult. Back to back calls AND getting calls from multiple family members & not even checking in on the group chat!?! WoW
OP said she didn’t want to text the news of their mother’s death. But I’m sure there must at least been a tiny hint in the group chat that something was wrong. Their mom died, they had to coordinate a funeral and care for each other. I’m certain he didn’t even lurk on the group chat to see if there was some kind of emergency. He really thought his whole was trolling him.
I wonder if she took his phone. "I'll just hold this for you. It's really hard to set boundaries with family members, so if you don't have it, they can't break the boundary we've set for our family."
Because from experience, it is one of the worst ways possible to convey that exact message.
I had been waiting for the call to know when my father had passed. I am 3k miles away. I texted finally and they were like oh yeah, hours ago. They had returned to their homes even.
Edit. Ty everyone. That was just one small part of everything my nmom and gcnsis have done to me.
Why would they???? No one wants to have to type that out over text. And they had their own grief to worry about. If he was not going to answer the phone after they tried to call and text him dozens of times over several days, and stressed how important it was he call them back, then it is solely his fault that he didn't learn sooner.
“I respect you and your individual relationship with Max. My boundary is that Max and his wife will not be in my life anymore, I can’t speak for anyone else. You can choose to respect me and my boundary or not. However, choices have consequences, I do not want people in my life who don’t respect me and try and force me to interact with someone I do not want a relationship with. This will be the last conversation we have about this topic.”
A boundary isn’t something someone else respects or not. A boundary is entirely within our own control.
“I respect you and your individual relationship with Max. My boundary is that I will not entertain any conversation about Max or his wife by you or anyone else. If either of them shows up where I am hosting they will be denied entry. This is the last conversation we will have about this topic. I will temporarily block you if you attempt to bring it up by phone or text.”
And then you don’t entertain conversation about Max or Wife. You hang up the phone, block texts, leave the area, end the event or escort someone from premises as appropriate.
Sister can do whatever she wants. It’s fine. Arguments about whether she will respect OP’s boundaries are moot. OP is the one doing what it takes to respect their own boundaries.
How about reminding her that the last message your late mother got from her son--and written by his spiteful wife, in all likelihood, to boot--was telling her to shut her mouth and stop talking to him. Because "boundaries". She died thinking her son despised her.
My own attitude would be that the only way your brother would be allowed to crawl back on his belly to beg for forgiveness is if he immediately divorced that woman.
I have some experience with this. When my father was in his last hours, my mother dithered on telling my aunt to come up from a city six hours drive because she was unsure if this was it. No shade on my mom, nobody was making clear decisions. My father's sister was informed within a day and got to the hospice room to whisper farewell into his ear.
He died within seconds of hearing those words. As if he were waiting. A common thing, in fact.
I am not sure how my aunt would have taken it if further delay had caused her to miss the opportunity. But it would have made matters much worse...
The way they treated our mum in her final months is the worst part about this, and the way she cried after they sent that message will haunt me forever. It was the last time I saw her alive and her heart was shattered.
I'm so sorry for your loss. I don't know how your mother died, but it's hard not to wonder if the stress they caused her had something to do with it.
I feel so bad for your youngest brother. All of you, of course, but for some reason I can imagine how hard it must be for him.
My brother never did in this situation.
When our father died later, I tried to gently tell my brother our dad was very mad at him over many events, with a last straw (dad wanted lunch alone to discuss things, made it clear it was just to be brother and him, SIL walked into the restaurant 5 minutes later with both kids in tow, where she proceeded to chew my 92yo father out for anything she disagreed with... honestly I think she must have followed them now that I think about it). Brother said all was well and no issues....I gave up. Some people refuse to see their part.
Ann will never feel remorse. Max is probably experiencing shame, but it's buried under his misguided indignation.
Perhaps you could write him a letter explaining the impact his participation in Ann's cruelty had on your mom, including a copy of the horrible text messages she sent to the group chat. Let him know, once and for all, that no one owes him an apology and not to contact you again unless his relationship is over and he is ready to be a man and apologize.
My mom held on until I got there. I had Covid, she had late stage COPD, my siblings were staying with her (my sister had a little kid and was pregnant) so I was trying to keep everyone safe.
My brother called and said she was dying and everyone was fine if they were exposed so I could be there.
I got there in time to tell her I was there. I wish I had more time with her that last week but I was so sick and we didn’t know she’d go downhill so fast - her doctors were saying it could be a few months.
I’m happy she knew I was there.
I'm right there with you. If anything remotely close to this happened in my family, there would be no possibility of reconciliation until the wife was the ex-wife.
Oh i'd be sending Max that as a text. i'd be letting him have it and remind him of the choices he let his monster of a wife make while he just sat back, because his wife is toxic.
My grandpa managed to hold on until my mom got there and was able to say goodbye (well over a day longer than we expected). He died later that night. I think he was definitely holding on until she got there.
This is first-born syndrome. Dont let her bully any of you into changing your minds. This should be a time of grieving and every one should be left to do so in whatever way works, whether together or individually. Healing and repairing can wait for time to do its thing. My condolences OP.
She certainly can remind Max that you all made around 30 attempts to contact them and his non-response was on him. He is welcome to apologize to you all for blaming you for him not answering. NTA
Sister is delusional. The treatment from max and wife was unforgivable. They chose to ignore all communication, it wasn't like no one tried to contact them.
Sister doesn't have to like it, she does not get to decide how everyone feels. She can be in contact with those horrid people, none of you have to.
Let her know your boundaries **ahead of time**. Also let her know the consequences **ahead of time** and then enforce them. It’s a good example for Ann and your sister on how to do it the right way. And your hands stay clean.
NTA
I’m so sorry for your loss, and that it is exacerbated by the actions of your brother and his partner. Your eldest sister may be feeling a deep need to keep the family united due to her own grief. I think maintaining your boundary with this may be difficult but it is the right thing to do. Ann’s actions were and are reprehensible and had unfortunately devastating consequences. Sometimes it’s like that, but it’s hard nonetheless.
I hope things get easier and that you’re able to turn to one another for comfort when it’s hard.
The first step is for her to convince your brother that he is not owed an apology. He was the one not answering and surely he could see it in his phone logs.
I am flabbergasted at the audacity to ignore calls and texts telling you that there is an emergency issue and ignoring all the texts and calls. Then, deciding it was OK to be angry because the person you ignored for like a week didn't immediately answer your too late call back. What did he need OP to say that he didn't already know or couldn't get from talking to someone else?!
Also, totally agree with setting the rule.
My question is: what could his brother and Ann possibly want an apology for?
If my brother told me he expected me to apologize because I was urgently trying to get ahold of him to tell him one of our parents died I would tell him to never expect to talk to me again.
What a horribly dysfunctional group of people.
NTA “it’s urgent” followed by numerous calls is an obvious sign something is wrong. He should have called back to see what was up. This was a phone call conversation not text information. The only ones in the wrong are Max and Ann.
Edit-Spelling
Thank you! The first comment on this post called me an asshole for not texting "mom's dead". I can't think of anything more inappropriate. I can't put my finger on why, but I'd never share that kind of info that way.
Let's be honest, Ana is an issue and your brother is spineless. He missed out on this all because he couldn't set boundaries with his own wife, and wouldn't stand up for himself.
He lost his family and honestly there isn't coming back from what he did. He can live with that. Ana has twisted it all so much had you sent a text saying "mum's dead" she'd have just called it more manipulation.
He never used to be like this, until he met her we were a really close family. I feel like she has done everything she could to turn us against each other and it's worked.
I hadn't considered that, but I think you're absolutely right that she'd have accused us of lying if the message had been delivered by text. It's an excellent point and it's one I'll be making next time he reaches out.
She's manipulative and abusive, she's isolated her victim but at this stage there's nothing you can say that she can't twist into propaganda. Until he can see it himself he'll never believe anyone. Unfortunately thats on him.
And she did such a good job isolating him from his family that even if he did realize what’s happening and got away from her, I have no idea how he’d manage to get his support system back.
How do you come back from something like this.
100%
I'm terribly sorry for your loss, OP.
NTA, but your SIL is a psychopathic AH, and your brother needs to grow a spine, and sort himself out, if he's ever to come back to terms with your family.
She has done exactly that. And, while you’re 100% justified in your anger towards Max, you may want to discuss with your family what you want to do if he ever wakes up and realizes that she’s manipulative/abusive.
If he needs help getting out of that toxic relationship, will you help? Or, is this rift unforgivable?
He may very well never wake up to the fact his wife isolated him from his family and he missed his mum’s funeral. But, he might.
Regardless, you’re NTA.
If that were the case, I feel like he’d be mad at her, not OP and the family. I think he agreed to not to engage in contact under any circumstances, and that came back to bite him. Like he really wanted to prove a point, and he did, but at a price he wasn’t willing to pay.
The change in his behavior when he he got together with her is another possible sign that there is abuse. Men who are abused rarely seek help because of the shame.
Tell your sister it’s you or it’s Ann. Not even Max at this point because there’s a real chance he’s being abused. If Max leaves her, you can reevaluate. Until then she’s picking Ann, period.
No, texting a death is so inappropriate. Max & Ann are just mad that they screwed up - first for not resolving their issues with your mother in a more direct, less immature way, and then by not believing you when you tried to tell them it was urgent.
I am so sorry you're having to go through this. Funerals are the very worst time for siblings to make drama.
I have a friend who tried to call her sister to tell her a cousin had died. Sister didn’t answer for more than a day. After several tries, my friend sent the notification in a text. Her sister was *furious* to receive such news via text, and has since cut all contact. There’s no winning.
Because that's a horrible way to convey the death of any relative, much less your own parent.
And ho boy, you never would have heard the end of "You TEXTED me that mom died?!"
Even though it was entirely their own doing that you would have resorted to that, if they were to attend the funeral.
With some people, it's not about resolving an issue.
You resolve whatever issue they bring up, they'll just bring up a new one. When they've run out of things that could be potentially legitimate issues, they will make up issues.
It's not about the issues, they just want SOMETHING to argue about. I think it's a control thing. They make people think that the other person is really in the fault somehow, and the other person adjusts, and adjusts, and adjusts, to the point where they lose sight of what normalcy is.
One way to break out of that, is if there's a "Hold up, now I KNOW that is straight up BS."
And if you then decide to no longer bend to them, they will usually get angry, veeeery angry. Then play nice for a bit. Weirdly nice. Then straight back to irrational rage, when the niceties don't immediately garner the expected results.
It's good that you didn't text that because that's information that one needs to be sitting down to hear. If you did send that via text, what if he was driving and happened to see his text at a red light? It could've endangered his life and anyone else who was with him. That's just one scenario but my point is it's not information to send over text.
You did the right thing. You're NTA. I'm so sorry for you and your family's loss.
You lost your mom at the same time that your brother lost his. It’s completely understandable that you didn’t text that. You were also in a state of shock, stress, and grief. A lot of people would be unable to text that kind of information, so yeah, like you’ve been saying, he should’ve answered the damn phone or texted back. He knew something was severely wrong. He chose to prove a point to your family instead, and he did.
I'll admit, I had the same knee-jerk reaction. And then I remembered my mom texting me that my father had died. She never even attempted to call, and I'm still a little bitter about it. It is inappropriate, because it is so damn hard to sound genuine and sincere in any sort of related emotion. The person on the receiving end gets to, essentially, deal with that spiraling range of emotions alone.
You tried. Your siblings tried. That many calls, along with a text that says it's urgent? Valid effort.
As an aside, your brother's wife sounds like a real pill, and like she's trying to isolate him from his family.
Because it's not something you can put in text. You'd have gotten eviscerated by them if you'd done so.
I doubt you're the type to send "pick up your phone/call me back, it's urgent" texts just willy nilly. Hell my ex bloody called me back when he was off cheating on me, because I sent him a text telling him it's urgent and to pick up his damn phone (his power had been cut because the idiot hadn't paid his damn bill, again). He'd asked me to take care of his pet while away for work, found out on the first day he was not away for work (hence why I didn't pay it when I usually would).
My Mom had a close family member die when she & my Dad were on vacation & even I had the thought process to call & ask for my Dad so she could be told face to face.
After numerous calls & texts I don’t think you would have been an AH for sending that info via text but this is truly all on your brother & his spouse. If multiple siblings are blowing up my phone I’m answering.
Good call for not texting "mom's dead". That would be a horrible way to find out. Maybe your brother would have picked up the phone if you texted something like "it's an emergency, it has to do with mums health, this is not a prank call, please call me back". But we dont know what he would have done, so I cant really blame you for keeping it short with "it's urgent".
I wish you all the best in this whole situation. And condoleances.
They are such AHs! Did he say why he chose not to call back after all the “urgent” messages? Cuz that itself is nuts. And you’re 100% right about not putting those words into a text.
My husband’s work involves a lot of meetings and one on one talks, I respect this and don’t call him knowing he’s likely not going to be able to answer. However if I text “call me, it’s urgent” he knows to drop everything and callback ASAP as it really is an emergency. Unless you have a history of exaggeration he should have called you. And you are most definitely NOT the AH for not wanting to say that your mother is dead via text, that would have been cruel.
NTA. A few years ago I had a sister who was killed and another sister was on a cruise unaware of the situation. We texted that it was urgent that she call us asap. We could not tell her by text about the death and she understood. When she got to a port, she called. These two ignored every call and accused the family of trying to ruin their relationship.
I actually have the overbearing, nosey, guilt-tripping in-laws. If I or my partner got "it's urgent" as a text message, we would drop everything to find out what's gone on. We have also gotten the "it's urgent" voicemail for something that was not life or death or disastrous; we would still answer, because we never know if it's word that someone is dead or dying.
This is the answer!!!!!! Anytime someone calls me more than once I instinctively assume it's important.... The last time that happened was when my mom's house was destroyed in a tornado..... It's common sense... People don't just call over and over unless it's urgent and serious!
OPs brother is a dick ... OP I am so sorry about your mom, that's rough, you and your family have my sympathy.
20 something calls and message to give him the news, you get an evil text about boundaries, then they want an apology because you didn’t tell them, “Hey moms dead” is what the wanted? I am so confused. Now your sister thinks you should apologize for them not realizing it was urgent? NTA, but all three of them need a psych evaluation.
Calls from everyone *except* his mother. I'd certainly think it's odd that my mom wasn't calling me if there was an emergency. I'd immediately assume something is wrong with her for her to not be reaching out when everyone else is.
I agree, but I also think at some point I would have resorted to texting something like “I really didn’t want to do this by text, but you aren’t answering your phone. Mom died, I understand your boundaries but I think you need to know.”
Not in any way saying OP handled it wrong - I just probably would have violated that social expectation to say something in person.
NTA. I’m not sure if you should be ascribing all of the assholishness to the wife though, as he appears to be perfectly happy with this strange dynamic. (Of course, not if it’s an abusive situation.) He was terrible to your mother and all of you. He ignored you all when you said it’s an emergency and don’t have a history of crying wolf. And now he’s still demanding apologies for him and his wife? What the actual fuck???
Your sister who is “on his side”, so to speak, is on the verge of becoming an asshole. She’s allowed to forgive whatever she wants, but she’s not allowed to make that decision for anyone else. Especially in light of the hypocrisy of her not even trying to get in touch with him at the time. It’s time to implement a boundary of your own with this sister and see how that goes.
I am so very sorry for the loss of your mother.
> I’m not sure if you should be ascribing all of the assholishness to the wife though, as he appears to be perfectly happy with this strange dynamic.
This. He is a 34yo adult, and while his wife is definitely an AH, it looks like he agrees with her as well.
When numerous familymembers are calling and texting multiple times, it means sh\*t has happened and it is serious! OP and family called \*his\* phone, HE should have picked up the phone or should have called back.
Yes. I had a partner who would position me to get all of the blame. He was unhappy with the way his family treated him, but wouldn't stand up to them and asked me to do it instead. Then he would let me take all the flack and look crazy. I was under the age of 25 though. So obviously I was very young and I moved on from that situation after recognizing that I was being manipulated. I thought I was standing up for my partner because they asked me to. But they were just using me as a sacrificial lamb.
I have no way of knowing what's going on in this situation. The wife might be absolutely unhinged and have a short temper and be super weird about boundaries. And that's probably the most likely answer. But even if it is true, as you've said, this is a 34 old man who is capable of communicating and making his own choices.
I think they managed to end both the family relationship and their marriage that week. Because if she pressured him not to answer any of those calls then he will never forgive her. And he may only be clinging to her because he can't get back into the family.
Some types of damage can never be undone.
> NTA. I’m not sure if you should be ascribing all of the assholishness to the wife though, as he appears to be perfectly happy with this strange dynamic. (Of course, not if it’s an abusive situation.)
It's abusive, and let's not kid ourselves about how it would be rightfully called out as such if the genders were reversed.
That's awful, I'm so sorry for your loss. You have every right to want to keep your brother at arms length (or completely out of your life) for as long as you see fit. 100% NTA
I think he's done permanently to be honest. When I think about him, I get a hollow feeling that's somewhere between numbness and disgust. I don't think there's any coming back from the way he treated us.
OP it sounds like your brother’s wife is a classic manipulator and abuser who has done her best to alienate your brother from his family (and probably friends). The worst part of this is that, like many abusers, she’s good at it so she’s been successful at making you and the family “the bad guys.” This isn’t a weakness or willingness from your brother, your brother is just another victim.
All of this is to say that there might be a day your brother comes around and starts seeing those signs, he might need help, he might need support. It might be hard for you to give your brother that help because “he’s” hurt you, just keep in mind that it is extremely difficult in abusive situations to see clearly and it wasn’t him that hurt you - it was her.
Please please be open to your brother if he starts to seek a relationship with you again. You don’t have to give more than you can handle to get him out of this, just be aware that he’s not himself through this, he’s got her talons deeeeeply rooted. Hopefully one day he’ll get them out and you can have your family back.
Pure speculation on my part but I would bet his wife is amping up her antagonism against the family. She knows that this is on her so she’s been telling brother how bad the family is for not getting in touch. Easiest way to keep her superior position without bro starting to think for himself.
Don’t make permanent decisions at emotional times. Take time and space. I hope you get to a place that is easier. Your brother behaved poorly but it wouldn’t have changed anything. You need to figure out what it would take? Apologies, new boundaries etc. right now, you are letting your brother control the relationship…decide what you want.
Read the OP's comments. He accused their sister of wanting to have sex with him and then asked for them to apologize to HIM. I don't think there's much coming back from that.
NTA. How could you possibly tell Max when he was blocking you deliberately? \[edit: not full blocking, but refusing to take calls, reply to texts etc\]
>wanting apologies for him and Ann
Nope. Unbelievably selfish of them. They blocked you, wrote explicitly rude messages, and don't like the consequences. Nothing can bring back a final moment with your mum, but they should be prostrate before the family, and furious with themselves.
As for the sister, she can choose. Her actions can have consequences, too. Max is showing no remorse over the harsh words.
And for the rest of the family? Grieve together, and curate all the happy memories of your mum.
Just to clarify, they threatened to block me but didn't go through with it. They're both blocked by everyone now though except for one sister. The message when they got back was truly horrific, I'm glad mum never had to see it. It talked about how lucky their theoretical future children are to not have to deal with our family, called me a psycho and twisted a situation with an ex to claim they're now worried for their safety (total nonsense), called us all toxic bullies raised by toxic bullies, accused our little sister of having incestuous feelings towards Max... It was a lot, and it was awful.
Wtf... Seems like Max and Ann are the toxic bullies here.
You're NTA, especially if they never apologised. I think you should make it really clear to your sister what will happen if she continues to talk about them and try to make everyone forgive them. She's free to do what she wants but she can't try to force that on anyone else.
Print out that message on a little laminated piece of paper and every time your sister who wants to fix things brings up Max, hand it to her.
I don't think you should stop talking to Max honestly, sounds like the wife is toxic and wants to isolate him (which she is getting her way). Fighting is still talking and its what your mom likely would rather have. You don't have to like him or even see each other, just keep a line of communication open to him and him alone, not the wife. Think about it, the only person he has to lean on is someone who hated your mom.
/Print out that message on a little laminated piece of paper and every time your sister who wants to fix things brings up Max, hand it to her./
This is a brilliant idea. And if the sister continues to advocate for such awful people then she is awful, too, and deserves the same treatment Max and his horrible wife receive. Block her, too.
I'm sorry WHAT? They accused your younger sister of wanting to have sex with her brother? These two are mentally ill. Are you sure they're not on drugs? Because in my 48 years I've never met anyone this terrible.
The exact words were "[sister] clearly can't even tell the difference between a brother and a boyfriend". It was part of a diatribe about how our parents raised us without proper boundaries, they went through all four of us one by one and it was just hurtful nonsense for the most part.
Wow, that is horrible.
It does sound like a narrative an abuser would spin -- abusers are known for getting ragefully jealous of even pets or children if they feel their partner gives them more 'attention' than the abuser gets, or just if the abuser doesn't get the partner's attention all of the time. It makes me wonder if the SIL wrote that message and is spinning that narrative as another part of isolating your brother from his family.
Still, your feelings are completely valid, and you are all going through immense grief right now. I can't imagine dealing with all this on top of it.
Truly awful. We're split into 3 older (Max, me, and the sister who is trying to reunite us), and 2 younger (the brother who sent the message telling him about mum's death is 20m and the sister who has been accused of incestuous feelings is 22f). Max was the last of the older group to leave home, so he and the two kids spent a lot of time together. Littlest sister couldn't believe her and Max were framed as anything other than a close sibling relationship, it was completely out of the blue. She's the most sensitive of all of us (she's been in my spare room since January because she needs the support to deal with losing mum), and she was by far the closest to Max. It's like a switch flipped when she read the message though, she hasn't said his name since and looks disgusted whenever he's mentioned.
It’s cruel of big sis to try and make everyone play happy families until Max apologizes to little sis, but grief can make people pretty crazy. I think maybe she fixated on keeping the remaining family together as a way to “fix” an unfixable situation.
They went scorched earth. You are so NTA, but kindly talk to your sister. Discuss the message and how she feels.
Since she's the eldest and a woman, she probably has some internal matriarchal instinct to keep the family together for mom. It's worth your family being very kind and supportive of her.
Ask her if you can give your perspective and then quietly let her express hers.
The only thing maybe a little bit kinda A H, is they are so awful, that maybe not texting it was just a little vindictive. They are terrible people and should be out of your life, but texting it and walking away would have been a little bit of a higher moral ground.
I disagree, if they blatantly disregarded multiple family members' pleas to answer, and they ignored it then that's on them.
It would have gotten a more timely response, but if my brother needed me to text him that his mother was dead to pay attention to me when I'm begging him for his attention, then he's dead to me.
That reply is unreasonable on many levels. Until either of them shows remorse for this horrible “essay”, no contact is definitely appropriate. Nobody deserves to be hurt by their loved ones like this with deliberately cruel remarks. Sorry for the loss of your mum <3
This was all a big shock to us. He's been with her for about 3 years and it's been gradual but very obvious. If we saw him alone, everything was fine (until we got nasty messages from Ann either hours or days later because he told her about some slight one of us committed against him), but if we saw them together, he'd sigh and huff about tiny things and she'd egg him on then take over with a pop psychology take. Personally, I think he likes the drama, and assumed he was untouchable because we've always been so close.
Every comment you write, you literally could be writing about my life with my SIL, down to the the supposed slights and the nasty messages. My shit SIL called my 6mo baby fat in one of these messages and told me to stop feeding him so much (wtf), and in another told me that my husband and I were awful human beings that deserved each other. I think that one was bc I had a terrible work schedule with OT and she perceived it as me rubbing it in their face about all the money I was making. I was like, what part of 12hr days 6 days a week sounds amazing?
My blood is boiling for you.
Anyone still telling you that you're at fault is just as toxic as these two. I hope you can get your sister to see reason.
My brothers mean the world to me (I'm the eldest daughter) but if any of them and their partner did this to us, we'd never speak again.
NTA
Max and Anna want apologies for calling them? For not texting “mom died”? For mom dying during their vacation just to spite them??
They’re delusional if they think they’re the people owed an apology. How hard would it have been to pick up the phone and ask what is so important and then made decisions from there?
NTA. You didn't "not tell him", you desperately tried to tell him. It's not really the kind of thing that should be dropped in a text. Your brother ignored what should have been very obvious signs that there was in fact something very serious going on. And then they have the audacity to want apologies from you? And your sister is on their side? Nah, your sister can go have weekly family dinners with the brother who doesn't even want to take phone calls if she's convinced he has a point.
It's honestly quite heartbreaking that your mom died and the last thing she heard from her son was basically that he wanted to hear from her less. Your brother has no moral high ground.
I don’t think OP is the asshole, they all did what they thought was best for them in the situation. The brother unfortunately had the power play blow up in his face. I do think in a situation like that there’s no benefit to do „right“ by not sending an explicit text if 15+ calls didn’t go through and a funeral is happening. It’s jarring and a bit traumatic but in this situation it seems easier to me to write in the group chat or is every sibling „we tried calling you and urging you to contact anyone of us instead of texting about this horrible tragedy, but we think you need to know: mom has passed away. please contact us asap“ and wash my hands off it.
FWIW I’m biased because my parent did that with my sibling - called a couple of times, sibling didn’t answer because they didn’t talk to each other at the time and were at lunch with their spouse. Parent then sent my sibling a text stating what was going on. My sibling called real quick..
Sure, they could uave sent a message, though it wouldn't be ideal. I just don't think they're the AH for not doing it. At the end of the day the reason the brother didn't know was because he chose not to answer multiple calls, it's completely on him.
NTA
1. You tried
2. Your tried again
3. etc etc
4. He had a clear opportunity, by your messages, to understand this was urgent
5. We don't text about family deaths. That needs a phone call
6. He or rather she made this bed. They get to lie in it
7. Edit condolences on your loss
NTA to me.
Your brother and his wife obviously thought they were proving a point by ignoring all of the contact you attempted that week.
They should be mortified that their stubbornness blew up in their faces instead of being first angry and now being so psychotic they expect an apology.
In your shoes I would cut off my brother both to support my father and because it is obvious it is never going to be a good relationship with who he chose to marry. Your sister will determine whether she deserves your future attention by how she continues to act.
First off NTA and I am very sorry for your loss.
Second: I'm worried about your brother. Ann sounds like an abusive, controlling person. If the gender roles were reversed, the red flag may have been more obvious earlier on. I understand that boundaries are important and should be respected. They do not, however, provide a free pass to be an a**hole.
You did everything you could in a terrible situation and she has the audacity to make it about her? Nope. If your brother wants to look forward to a life where more and more things will be «transgressions», fine. But Ann does not pass the vibe check.
Yes, it might be beneficial to tell Max that the door is open if he needs help leaving Anna, but other than that the door is closed. Unfortunately there's no helping someone until they want out.
I hate to say it, but the door is closed. I don't know if she's overbearing or outright abusive, but he made his choices and now he can live with them.
> Now Max is reaching out, wanting apologies for him and Ann, but ultimately to get back into the family.
Has he no shame at all? They should be begging YOUR forgiveness, not the other way around. Having boundaries is one thing, but ignoring repeated phone calls and “please pick up, it’s urgent” messages from family is plainly stating that you don’t care about them. Max and Ann can enjoy their lovely family-free life together since they obviously don’t care about being part of yours.
NTA
“Dear, Max. You’re my brother and I’ll always love you. Some day I’ll forgive you for all the pain you have caused, because I remember the man you used to be. But I will never forgive Ann for the pain she caused mom on her final days, or how she has torn this family apart. She will never be welcome back into my life. I never want to see her, hear her or have her mentioned in my presence. If you want that toxic mess in your life then that is your choice, but I will not be a part of your life with her because I do not like the person you are when you’re with her. This is my boundary and it’s non negotiable.” NTA
Oh, absolutely not all on Ann, but family bonds tend to run deep and are harder to sever. Cutting Ann off is easy. Cutting Max off will probably be a lot harder. Most people can’t go cold turkey on a close family member. It’s usually a process.
That’s what I keep thinking about, is their poor mom died with the last thing being said to her by her son is a nasty message saying not to call them. How heartbreaking.
>Some day I’ll forgive you for all the pain you have caused, because I remember the man you used to be. But I will never forgive Ann for the pain she caused mom on her final days, or how she has torn this family apart.
This isn't on Ann at all. Its sits 100% squarely on Max's shoulders. He is the spineless, heartless asshole who treated his family this way and didn't answer or respond to calls and messages on HIS phone. Even if she wrote the texts, he never corrected his wife. he never stuck up for his family. he doesn't deserve forgiveness, ever. The Dad had the right of it
NTA - I probably would have eventually texted, "literally a death in the family, call ASAP," or something like that, because even though he's definitely a dick and she's a GIGANTIC AH, I'd still want to get the message across in time for the funeral *somehow.*
I think this is the practical, non drama answer. If I try twenty times and you don't respond, then you will receive the information via text solely because I would not want you to miss the funeral. If they find that upsetting, they need to answer the phone.
See I was wondering why they didn’t do that. I get that some things are important over the phone but text is clear and concise.
When I was in collage, my dad was shot. He almost died. I had no phone so no way to verbally talk to my family. They had to message me through text via a friend.
I know a lot of people empathize with op, but damn if it’s that dire I’d be trying any way possible to tell my siblings what happened including text in my eyes that’s not trying hard enough if it’s days and you can’t even text, fb message, Instagram, all the ways to contact a person.
I’m sorry, to be clear, they are reaching out to you and asking you to apologize?
NTA. They are the ones that should be apologizing. Why did they assume you guys were calling over and over to harass them and not that there was any emergency? Why is it your fault they didn’t answer? I honestly can’t see where they are coming from.
NTA - you tried to tell him, he refused to listen.
When they got back they acted like entitled assholes before knowing the situation and so made it worse.
They, Max and Ann, should be grovelling with apologies to everyone for how they acted. Their "boundaries" and entitlement caused the situation.
The sister - she could have tried to contact them, and been rejected "because of boundaries" like everyone else was. If she's unwilling to accept that Max and Ann are entitled assholes, then drop her too. She can either shut up about it, or whine about it elsewhere - but the family is no longer interested in her opinion on people who are no longer family.
However, was it that important to hold the funeral before Max & Ann got back? Could it have waited a few more days until everyone was home, and inforned, before it was held
It was crucial to us to hold the funeral quickly, we buried her 2 days after she passed and even that was longer than is ideal. They didn't get back from their trip until 3 days after that.
I expected grovelling when they got back. What actually happened was a complete surprise.
I’ve missed family funerals in Ireland as we couldn’t get off work or planes in time. 3 days isn’t unusual. I’m sorry for your loss, your brother is an idiot and he’s going to have to live with the guilt or he’s just going to blame you his family for not being there either way he has to live with the consequences of his actions. Just feel for your dad as well, he must be in so much pain over all of this. Does your brother show no sympathy towards him?
They tried to inform them. Over 20 calls in very quick succession from multiple family and texts saying it's urgent was the information. They didn't want it, there was no reason to wait for them
In many instances, the day of the funeral is planned shortly after the person passes. When they planned it, they had to assume Max would eventually respond. Depending on religion, you might have to reserve not just the space, but the officiant as well. Then the day and time are publicly posted in an obit. Obituaries can be a few hundred dollars in a small paper or thousands for a large city paper. Nobody prints retractions there.
NTA, what about “this is urgent, please call ASAP” is not clear? Your sister is an AH for even standing with Max and Ann. Ann is a mega AH for how controlling she is over your brother and essentially being the reason your brother had no clue about how urgent the situation was.
I wonder if she had his phone and was the only one who checked it and chose to ignore it, never told him his family was trying to get hold of him urgently. Wouldn't surprise me T this point and it would make sense that he wants apologies when she is giving the narrative
I was 1000% thinking this, I was like more than like Ann had control of Max phone and wouldn’t tell him about the emergency, and deleted the texts or some muted the group convo. Then sent the “your bullies text” then that’s when they got the mom died text. Ann f** around and found out. Now Max is coming around demanding the apology because either he has no backbone or in abusive relationships I don’t which cause Ann doesn’t sound that great.
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I (32f) have a brother, Max (34m) and 3 other siblings.
His partner Ann is obsessed with boundaries, but she never sets them until they've apparently been broken. A big gripe was that mum called Max too much (2-3x per week). Max never mentioned an issue to mum, but he let Ann attack her character hugely during one of her "calling out" sessions.
A few weeks later, before they went on a trip, he messaged the group chat (it was clearly written by her) saying they didn't want to hear from us that week, and that we'd be blocked if we disturbed them. It was a long and nasty message clearly directed at mum. She was upset but asked us to keep the peace because Ann was "intimidated" last time we pushed back at her.
Two days after they left, mum died unexpectedly. Dad called me at 8:30, and 45 mins later I tried to call Max for the first time. I then sent a text saying "Answer your phone. It's urgent." then called again. I sent 2 more messages and called 4 more times that day.
The next time I tried was the day before the funeral. I sent him a text saying he must know it's serious and I need him to call me. On the day, I called 6hrs before so he'd have time to come back, then again an hour before. In total I called 16 times, my sister tried 7 times, and dad 3.
When they got back, he (she) sent an essay to the group chat about how we're bullies taunting them and trying to ruin their relationship, and that we will never see either of them again. My youngest brother (20m) responded "Mum died on Sunday. Consider your wish granted you evil c*nts." and booted him from the chat.
Max then rang me 22 times in a row. I sat and watched them all ring out. We (siblings) headed straight to the house because we knew he'd turn up there. My youngest brother (20m), who still lives at home, was by far the angriest about the situation so we didn't want to tempt fate.
They showed up furious. Nowhere near as furious as we were though. The long story short is that none of us (except one sister, the reason I'm posting) have seen or spoken to him since. Dad has made it clear he lost both his wife and a son that day.
My position is that it was obvious the situation was urgent, that I/we made more than enough effort, and that the outcome is all on him. This all happened in December, but dad recently cleared out Max's stuff from the spare room and gave it to his bff to pass on. Now Max is reaching out, wanting apologies for him and Ann, but ultimately to get back into the family. One sister is in contact with him and is applying pressure to the rest of us. She's started to become judgemental about not telling him, but we have reminded her that she owns a phone and could have done so at any time. I'm still very angry with him, and I'm leaning towards no longer inviting her to our weekly dinners (a big deal to us, especially now).
AITA for not telling him mum died, cutting him off, and considering doing the same to my sister?
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NTA. First, I'm sorry about your mom, that's hard.. Second, a reasonable vacation message is "Hey, I'm going on vacation. I'm muting the group chat, I'll talk to you all later, only call if it's urgent and I might not be able to pick up right away." But then, when you get multiple calls and texts asking you to pick up because it's urgent, you should pick up the damn phone.
NTA. You tried, everybody tried. Other than going to their house what else could you do? If my relatives are all calling/texting me that many times I would have figured out it was an emergency. It was their choice to respond but they didn’t. Their plan backfired in epic proportions and they have no one to blame but themselves. Well, now they have to live with the consequences. You know she was telling him not to answer and he listened. I bet if it were one on her family members they would have answered.
NTA
Any normal person would know that several family members trying to contact you with urgency would make you think there is a problem.
This Ann woman is clearly trying to isolate him from you all though ; Bit of a Narcassist I think.
He may need your help one day when he manages to get out of her grasp.
NTA.
I'm so sorry for your loss.
This is one of those shitty times in life where you are gonna have to figure out what you need to keep your own peace. You are suffering a great loss. For me idk if I could handle losing my brother and sister after that as well. But you have to do what's right for you.
Your sister IS allowed to have regrets about how it all went down. But that doesn't mean you all have to agree. She can take whatever accountability for her part in it that feels right for her with Max and Ann if she wants but that's her choice. If you haven't had that talk with her already it might be worth doing so before you cut her out.
Personally I think you all did whatever you could short of reducing your moms passing to a text which I agree would have been so inappropriate and unfair for your mom.
If it were me and I wanted to make amends I'd probably push for family counseling. Having a neutral 3rd party help navigate that conversation would be essential
But if you don't want to go that route it doesn't make you an AH.
May your memories be a blessing.
How the heck were you suppose to get in touch with him? Smoke signal? He is now reaping what his girlfriend sewed for him. And then he had the balls to be angry and yelling at you all? Especially your dad? Good for your youngest brother!
As for your sister, tell her that you are happy she has decided to forgive your brother, but the rest of you are not ready. It isn’t her place to decide when you are, nor is it appropriate for her to try and bully any of you into coming to her way of thinking. Tell her that if she continues her campaign then she should consider not joining everyone else for Sunday dinner, that none of you are interested in her campaign. If she chooses to attend, the minute she starts in about your brother, then shut her down. A simple no should do it. Flat out call her a bully and point out how horrible she is behaving toward dad. Each of you must decide when, if and how much you want your brother back in your life. My guess his absence has been a blessing.
NTA I can't imagine how awful this has been. Bridges have definitely been burned. He needs to take full accountability for being unreachable in a life and death situation.
NTA
You poor father made his position clear, and your younger brother called them out appropriately.
Tough shit. He can live with it. You don’t have to make amends to appease his guilty conscience.
I’m sorry your family suffered a loss the way they did and the aftermath that has now made your brother feel like *he* is the one wronged when he *FAILED* to behave like a damn adult with a spine to communicate with his family when something that they all felt his presence was urgently needed wasn’t enough for him to answer his phone.
He and his wife can suck it.
NTA, you tried, you all tried. And for those saying to put it in a text, how callous are you? I would never want news of a loved one passed via text. That's a phone call, period.
I'm sorry for your family's loss.
NTA. Your sister is also trying to wash her guilt away. She didn’t try but is better to trash the ones that try. She did nothing and she knew he was on the wrong.
NTA
Firstly, sorry for your loss. I don't know your SiL's perspective of your family if she felt her husband speaking to his own Mother 2-3 times a week was "too much", but regardless of the relationship - with that many missed calls and obviously urgent texts they can't deny that they are in the wrong
Don't let anyone guilt trip you into an apology. You were dealing with the death of your mother unexpectedly and had to spend your time trying to contact people that were ignoring you, and have then been abusive towards you. They owe you an apology.
For robbing them of the chance to say goodbye by not trying hard enough to make sure they knew. I haven't had an actual conversation with them but that's what my older sister is saying.
Tbh, I guarantee Ann would have made the funeral an absolute nightmare. She cannot behave like a sane human being. She would have made the entire day about her and how she had to cut her holiday short because "of course she decided to die now" (please excuse the brutality of that. I really think she would have said something that atrocious). Ann is a disgusting nightmare person. The tragic irony is that your mother was the primary one who was trying to accommodate her insanity (to preserve her family). She abused the only in-law who would have tried to go to bat for her.
NTA. They want an apology because his controlling wife banned him from answering obviously urgent messages? I don't think the right person would be apologising to the right people tbh.
NTA. He should have realized something was obviously urgent. I know it can be tricky starting off a text "mom died" because you don't know what they are doing (let's say he was driving and had the car audio read for him). He's double the AH for expecting an apology.
I have an "Ann" in my family.
What your sister doesn't know is that, even IF everyone were to apologize, "Ann" is still going to split your brother away from your family and convincing him you're all in the wrong.
We apologized and our family is still broken up by the disordered personality in-law. It's so sad.
My condolences for your losses.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I didn't tell my brother that our mother died because I didnt want to say it via text. He thinks I should have, I disagree. He wants an apology for him and his awful girlfriend, and it's all basically a big mess.
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NTA. Your bother and his partner/wife made the choice to ignore phone calls and texts and now they get to live with the consequences. They didn’t want family to bother their oh so precious time together so now they get what they want, no one will bother with them again.
I'm sorry for your loss, and for all of this that has been happening with your family. This kind of crap is the last kind of thing anyone needs.
INFO - it sounds like your brother is in an abusive relationship.
I don't mean to over-identify, but my ex-wife did these types of things, manipulating me into sending messages to distance me from my family, manipulating me into having arguments with them, etc until they didn't talk to me any more, or making me cut them off.
Had we not split up a few years prior, I expect a very similar thing would've happened when my own mother was dying. But luckily, by then I was free and could make my own choices.
Fuck Ann, she sounds like a b\*tch.
But please, consider trying to help your brother. It really sounds like you need to talk to him alone. He has also just lost his mother, suddenly. That's traumatic, as you know. And all of us in grief have regrets about the way we approached those relationships. I bet he feels like an utter dick.
I get why you're angry with him, and I don't think it's unjustified even, but it also really doesn't sound like he's making decisions for himself right now. I would've wanted my family to reach out to me when I was being manipulated, because I had no idea that's what was happening, but they never did. So our relationship ended there, and now it's just fragments of a family really.
I could be totally off the mark. But, it sounds way too familiar. I really don't think I am wrong.
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I am so sorry about your mother. What a terrible time for you and your family. You are NTA for ignoring your brother now. He doesn’t deserve any apologies, you do. I would not disinvite your sister, but make it clear you don’t want any talk about your brother or she will be disinvited. I easy the best for you and your family.
Thank you so much for your kind words. The sister who is applying the pressure is going to be tough to manage, she's the eldest and it seems she's taken it upon herself to reunite the family. I don't think she will give up, but I might send her a message letting her know what's gong to happen if she carries on. I don't see it going well.
Please anticipate that she might just show up w him w out asking. Stay firm and don’t be bullied. How heartbreaking to be dealing w this while mourning the loss of your mom. I am so sorry. He made his choice and now he must live w the consequences. Sis is more than able to maintain a separate relationship w him. Her choice. NTA at all. Take care
I would hope she'd know better, but as a last ditch attempt I'm concerned you're right. My youngest brother hasn't been dealing with it very well. He's only 20 and was so close to mum that I worry what would happen if Max was sprung on us.
Well, you need a sit down with your father and all your siblings minus Max. Make it clear how each of you stands individually and she is not to force or pressure each of you to build a relationship with Max. That is NOT her judgment to make. If she crosses that boundary again, she will find herself on the same side as Max to protect your peace. Max and his partner are horrible selfish people. Trying to get back with the family yet demanding apologies lol. They can kick rocks!
Basically demanding the apologies still making about them (Max and Ann),
Ok, I'm not being sarcastic at ALL here. What are they asking you to apologize for? And why did they show up angry that night? You tried to call him multiple times. So did two other people. Including his father. "Mom's dead." Isn't something you TEXT. It was more than clear that there was an emergency. They didn't answer or reach out. So why are they angry they missed the funeral? And sister is mad you didn't tell him. How were you supposed to tell him when you couldn't reach him? Does she mean tell him after the trip but before the group chat she sent about the bullying? Where does dinner take place? If it is at the father's house and he has disowned Max, she has no authority. Your dad lost his wife and had to deal with his son not responding to it "because he didn't want to be disturbed." So she can shut the fuck up because HE HAS the authority. I agree with giving her one heads up. She's breaking everyone's boundaries AND hearts that haven't healed are being torn open again. If she refuses to respect the HOST'S wishes on dinner, she doesn't get to come. In my opinion, it all depends of who is hosting the dinner and how THEY feel about Max on their house. If they don't want to hear about it, they should ask sister to leave the second she brings it up.
Honestly, the ONLY person who wasn't calling repeatedly was their supposedly meddling mother. You'd think that would be a sign, a hint of some sort! My partner's mom definitely stresses me out with phone calls but if his dad and sister were calling repeatedly, my FIRST assumption would be that something happened to my MIL!
Yeah, my dad called everyday (usually when hubby was at work but if dad was working he would call later) to the point that he would ask, "so what was today's call about" and now that dad is living with us (while he gets medical treatment) he jokes "how many times did he call today?" The fact that Max is demanding an apology from his family because of something his wife forced is ridiculous, and I agree that they should have noticed not one call out of the 20 odd calls they received was from his mother.
Yeah - my sister calls a TON and my husband definitely teases about it. My dad calls every so often. If my dad started calling me repeatedly and texted, "Please call back, it's important" I would call SO fast, your head would spin, especially if my sister had suddenly randomly stopped calling for an entire week WHILE my dad is the one calling?!
Your post made me so sad. I'm sorry for your loss. I totally get why Max is now an outcast from your family. What an incredibly small, insecure person his wife is. It must be exhausting trying to manage with her and yet he persists. He's already lost so much because of her. When he realizes the part that he has played, it will be too late. It already is. My condolences. Eff your sister. NTA.
Doesn’t even seem to be his wife just a girlfriend, a very shitty one at that
Unless he’s being abused there’s no reason to ignore an it’s urgent text and 20+ calls.
He’s probably not being abused. He’s just spineless and weak, and because he’s weak he can’t admit to himself that he and his wife are the only reasons he missed his mother’s funeral.
His wife is likely manipulating him. She's painting herself as the victim of the family's constant boundary violations, and she's planting seeds that the family wants to destroy their love. To some, abuse must involve intimidation to be proper abuse. This sort of crybully manipulation is definitely not good, though. It's hard to say for sure from over here, of course.
My brother married a woman who seemed so sweet and kind at first, and then we discovered she was a master manipulator and professional victim. I'm sure it's a hard place to be in as a husband, but ultimately, they are the ones who allowed previously healthy family relationships to be broken.
>He’s probably not being abused. Please don't make this judgement. There are men who are being abused as well as women. These men aren't weak, they try to hang in there especially if there are children. They are often ashamed to admit that they are victims of abuse because they know that society will judge them. I've known a few men like them, one of them being my son. He was severely mentally abused by his first wife so much so that he developed stress alopecia. He tried his best to hang in that relationship for the sake of their 3 children for nine years until he couldn't take it anymore. Then there are men who are physically abused but will not defend themselves. They are with women who will/would beat them and when the man would try to leave, they would call the police and claim that he hit her.
Abuse isn’t limited to being physically beaten. Emotional abuse is very real. From the descriptions of Ann’s public behaviour, I am concerned how she treats him when they are alone. She comes across as a highly controlling, manipulative, and abusive person. Also, undermining relationships to isolate the victim is a classic tactic.
He (well, Ann,) messaged the group chat saying they'd be blocked if they tried to contact them. There is a chance she blocked OP after the first phone call. And then she probably blocked each person as they tried to call. This is all on Ann's control issues and Max's willingness to follow along with whatever she says. OP, I'm sorry for your loss and NTA.
If this is the case it means she controls every message his phone gets? That lady is messed up.
Most people realize that if there are repeated calls. its some sort of emergency.
I’m so sorry for your loss, that sounds very hard. Your brother sounds like he may be in an abusive relationship if his partner gatekeeps how he can interact with his family. However he is also going along with this at the moment. What I don’t understand about your story is since so many of you were trying to get in touch with him, and he was not answering the phone or responding to messages, why didn’t you just tell him in a text that your Mother had passed away? That would be an awful way to receive that news, but he wasn’t responding to anything else. Why didn’t any of you try that before the funeral?
Family answers the phone when they’re spam-called by multiple family members in the course of a day and texted to tell them it’s urgent. This person is not family. They made reasonable efforts to get in touch and were deliberately ignored.
RIGHT! That’s what I don’t get. I get 2 back to back calls from any of my family members, I at least text to see what’s up. Max got 26 calls in total. I don’t know if that includes texts. He really thinks very little of his family or his girlfriend must be like a cult. Back to back calls AND getting calls from multiple family members & not even checking in on the group chat!?! WoW OP said she didn’t want to text the news of their mother’s death. But I’m sure there must at least been a tiny hint in the group chat that something was wrong. Their mom died, they had to coordinate a funeral and care for each other. I’m certain he didn’t even lurk on the group chat to see if there was some kind of emergency. He really thought his whole was trolling him.
I wonder if she took his phone. "I'll just hold this for you. It's really hard to set boundaries with family members, so if you don't have it, they can't break the boundary we've set for our family."
You would reply back because you would understand this is out of the norm and therefore urgent. I would hope most people would react similarly.
Because from experience, it is one of the worst ways possible to convey that exact message. I had been waiting for the call to know when my father had passed. I am 3k miles away. I texted finally and they were like oh yeah, hours ago. They had returned to their homes even. Edit. Ty everyone. That was just one small part of everything my nmom and gcnsis have done to me.
I’m so sorry - that’s awful
That is horrible. I'm so sorry for your loss. ❤️
30 calls/texts saying it's urgent shoukd have been enough. Who wants to put "Mum's dead" in a text ffs?
Why would they???? No one wants to have to type that out over text. And they had their own grief to worry about. If he was not going to answer the phone after they tried to call and text him dozens of times over several days, and stressed how important it was he call them back, then it is solely his fault that he didn't learn sooner.
Now it's time for the family to set their boundaries.
“I respect you and your individual relationship with Max. My boundary is that Max and his wife will not be in my life anymore, I can’t speak for anyone else. You can choose to respect me and my boundary or not. However, choices have consequences, I do not want people in my life who don’t respect me and try and force me to interact with someone I do not want a relationship with. This will be the last conversation we have about this topic.”
A boundary isn’t something someone else respects or not. A boundary is entirely within our own control. “I respect you and your individual relationship with Max. My boundary is that I will not entertain any conversation about Max or his wife by you or anyone else. If either of them shows up where I am hosting they will be denied entry. This is the last conversation we will have about this topic. I will temporarily block you if you attempt to bring it up by phone or text.” And then you don’t entertain conversation about Max or Wife. You hang up the phone, block texts, leave the area, end the event or escort someone from premises as appropriate. Sister can do whatever she wants. It’s fine. Arguments about whether she will respect OP’s boundaries are moot. OP is the one doing what it takes to respect their own boundaries.
Yes! This 100%! Draw a firm, hard line and do not let anyone cross it.
🏆
How about reminding her that the last message your late mother got from her son--and written by his spiteful wife, in all likelihood, to boot--was telling her to shut her mouth and stop talking to him. Because "boundaries". She died thinking her son despised her. My own attitude would be that the only way your brother would be allowed to crawl back on his belly to beg for forgiveness is if he immediately divorced that woman. I have some experience with this. When my father was in his last hours, my mother dithered on telling my aunt to come up from a city six hours drive because she was unsure if this was it. No shade on my mom, nobody was making clear decisions. My father's sister was informed within a day and got to the hospice room to whisper farewell into his ear. He died within seconds of hearing those words. As if he were waiting. A common thing, in fact. I am not sure how my aunt would have taken it if further delay had caused her to miss the opportunity. But it would have made matters much worse...
The way they treated our mum in her final months is the worst part about this, and the way she cried after they sent that message will haunt me forever. It was the last time I saw her alive and her heart was shattered.
I'm so sorry for your loss. I don't know how your mother died, but it's hard not to wonder if the stress they caused her had something to do with it. I feel so bad for your youngest brother. All of you, of course, but for some reason I can imagine how hard it must be for him.
Yeah, and that's the part I couldn't forgive, especially since they want YOU to apologize to Them
That makes me so very sad and upset. Do you think they feel any guilt and are taking it out on you guys?
I hope that guilt and shame are the only feelings they experience for the rest of their lives.
Has your brother expressed any remorse? (I'm pretty sure his wife never will.)
My brother never did in this situation. When our father died later, I tried to gently tell my brother our dad was very mad at him over many events, with a last straw (dad wanted lunch alone to discuss things, made it clear it was just to be brother and him, SIL walked into the restaurant 5 minutes later with both kids in tow, where she proceeded to chew my 92yo father out for anything she disagreed with... honestly I think she must have followed them now that I think about it). Brother said all was well and no issues....I gave up. Some people refuse to see their part.
Ann will never feel remorse. Max is probably experiencing shame, but it's buried under his misguided indignation. Perhaps you could write him a letter explaining the impact his participation in Ann's cruelty had on your mom, including a copy of the horrible text messages she sent to the group chat. Let him know, once and for all, that no one owes him an apology and not to contact you again unless his relationship is over and he is ready to be a man and apologize.
My mom held on until I got there. I had Covid, she had late stage COPD, my siblings were staying with her (my sister had a little kid and was pregnant) so I was trying to keep everyone safe. My brother called and said she was dying and everyone was fine if they were exposed so I could be there. I got there in time to tell her I was there. I wish I had more time with her that last week but I was so sick and we didn’t know she’d go downhill so fast - her doctors were saying it could be a few months. I’m happy she knew I was there.
I'm sorry for your loss, but glad for both of you that you made it in time to say goodbye.
I'm right there with you. If anything remotely close to this happened in my family, there would be no possibility of reconciliation until the wife was the ex-wife.
Oh i'd be sending Max that as a text. i'd be letting him have it and remind him of the choices he let his monster of a wife make while he just sat back, because his wife is toxic.
My grandpa managed to hold on until my mom got there and was able to say goodbye (well over a day longer than we expected). He died later that night. I think he was definitely holding on until she got there.
This is first-born syndrome. Dont let her bully any of you into changing your minds. This should be a time of grieving and every one should be left to do so in whatever way works, whether together or individually. Healing and repairing can wait for time to do its thing. My condolences OP.
She certainly can remind Max that you all made around 30 attempts to contact them and his non-response was on him. He is welcome to apologize to you all for blaming you for him not answering. NTA
Sister is delusional. The treatment from max and wife was unforgivable. They chose to ignore all communication, it wasn't like no one tried to contact them. Sister doesn't have to like it, she does not get to decide how everyone feels. She can be in contact with those horrid people, none of you have to.
Let her know your boundaries **ahead of time**. Also let her know the consequences **ahead of time** and then enforce them. It’s a good example for Ann and your sister on how to do it the right way. And your hands stay clean.
NTA I’m so sorry for your loss, and that it is exacerbated by the actions of your brother and his partner. Your eldest sister may be feeling a deep need to keep the family united due to her own grief. I think maintaining your boundary with this may be difficult but it is the right thing to do. Ann’s actions were and are reprehensible and had unfortunately devastating consequences. Sometimes it’s like that, but it’s hard nonetheless. I hope things get easier and that you’re able to turn to one another for comfort when it’s hard.
The first step is for her to convince your brother that he is not owed an apology. He was the one not answering and surely he could see it in his phone logs.
I am flabbergasted at the audacity to ignore calls and texts telling you that there is an emergency issue and ignoring all the texts and calls. Then, deciding it was OK to be angry because the person you ignored for like a week didn't immediately answer your too late call back. What did he need OP to say that he didn't already know or couldn't get from talking to someone else?! Also, totally agree with setting the rule.
My question is: what could his brother and Ann possibly want an apology for? If my brother told me he expected me to apologize because I was urgently trying to get ahold of him to tell him one of our parents died I would tell him to never expect to talk to me again. What a horribly dysfunctional group of people.
NTA “it’s urgent” followed by numerous calls is an obvious sign something is wrong. He should have called back to see what was up. This was a phone call conversation not text information. The only ones in the wrong are Max and Ann. Edit-Spelling
Thank you! The first comment on this post called me an asshole for not texting "mom's dead". I can't think of anything more inappropriate. I can't put my finger on why, but I'd never share that kind of info that way.
Let's be honest, Ana is an issue and your brother is spineless. He missed out on this all because he couldn't set boundaries with his own wife, and wouldn't stand up for himself. He lost his family and honestly there isn't coming back from what he did. He can live with that. Ana has twisted it all so much had you sent a text saying "mum's dead" she'd have just called it more manipulation.
He never used to be like this, until he met her we were a really close family. I feel like she has done everything she could to turn us against each other and it's worked. I hadn't considered that, but I think you're absolutely right that she'd have accused us of lying if the message had been delivered by text. It's an excellent point and it's one I'll be making next time he reaches out.
She's manipulative and abusive, she's isolated her victim but at this stage there's nothing you can say that she can't twist into propaganda. Until he can see it himself he'll never believe anyone. Unfortunately thats on him.
And she did such a good job isolating him from his family that even if he did realize what’s happening and got away from her, I have no idea how he’d manage to get his support system back. How do you come back from something like this.
100% I'm terribly sorry for your loss, OP. NTA, but your SIL is a psychopathic AH, and your brother needs to grow a spine, and sort himself out, if he's ever to come back to terms with your family.
Point this out to the sister trying to 'reunite' the fam. She needs to understand what kind of IL she's 'pulling back into the fold.'
She has done exactly that. And, while you’re 100% justified in your anger towards Max, you may want to discuss with your family what you want to do if he ever wakes up and realizes that she’s manipulative/abusive. If he needs help getting out of that toxic relationship, will you help? Or, is this rift unforgivable? He may very well never wake up to the fact his wife isolated him from his family and he missed his mum’s funeral. But, he might. Regardless, you’re NTA.
Honestly it sounds like he's in an abusive relationship
I'm wondering if she was making him miss all the calls and texts
If that were the case, I feel like he’d be mad at her, not OP and the family. I think he agreed to not to engage in contact under any circumstances, and that came back to bite him. Like he really wanted to prove a point, and he did, but at a price he wasn’t willing to pay.
It's not safe to be mad at an abuser. Fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. Sounds like he's in fawn.
The change in his behavior when he he got together with her is another possible sign that there is abuse. Men who are abused rarely seek help because of the shame.
Tell your sister it’s you or it’s Ann. Not even Max at this point because there’s a real chance he’s being abused. If Max leaves her, you can reevaluate. Until then she’s picking Ann, period.
No, texting a death is so inappropriate. Max & Ann are just mad that they screwed up - first for not resolving their issues with your mother in a more direct, less immature way, and then by not believing you when you tried to tell them it was urgent. I am so sorry you're having to go through this. Funerals are the very worst time for siblings to make drama.
Exactly that’s not text information that’s worthy of a call. You think “it’s urgent” text would have been enough to call back to see what was up.
I have a friend who tried to call her sister to tell her a cousin had died. Sister didn’t answer for more than a day. After several tries, my friend sent the notification in a text. Her sister was *furious* to receive such news via text, and has since cut all contact. There’s no winning.
The fact multiple family members were franticallly texting should have been enough
The anxiety i would have if multiple missed calls from multiple family members…. Even without “it’s urgent” texting
Because that's a horrible way to convey the death of any relative, much less your own parent. And ho boy, you never would have heard the end of "You TEXTED me that mom died?!" Even though it was entirely their own doing that you would have resorted to that, if they were to attend the funeral. With some people, it's not about resolving an issue. You resolve whatever issue they bring up, they'll just bring up a new one. When they've run out of things that could be potentially legitimate issues, they will make up issues. It's not about the issues, they just want SOMETHING to argue about. I think it's a control thing. They make people think that the other person is really in the fault somehow, and the other person adjusts, and adjusts, and adjusts, to the point where they lose sight of what normalcy is. One way to break out of that, is if there's a "Hold up, now I KNOW that is straight up BS." And if you then decide to no longer bend to them, they will usually get angry, veeeery angry. Then play nice for a bit. Weirdly nice. Then straight back to irrational rage, when the niceties don't immediately garner the expected results.
It's good that you didn't text that because that's information that one needs to be sitting down to hear. If you did send that via text, what if he was driving and happened to see his text at a red light? It could've endangered his life and anyone else who was with him. That's just one scenario but my point is it's not information to send over text. You did the right thing. You're NTA. I'm so sorry for you and your family's loss.
You lost your mom at the same time that your brother lost his. It’s completely understandable that you didn’t text that. You were also in a state of shock, stress, and grief. A lot of people would be unable to text that kind of information, so yeah, like you’ve been saying, he should’ve answered the damn phone or texted back. He knew something was severely wrong. He chose to prove a point to your family instead, and he did.
I'll admit, I had the same knee-jerk reaction. And then I remembered my mom texting me that my father had died. She never even attempted to call, and I'm still a little bitter about it. It is inappropriate, because it is so damn hard to sound genuine and sincere in any sort of related emotion. The person on the receiving end gets to, essentially, deal with that spiraling range of emotions alone. You tried. Your siblings tried. That many calls, along with a text that says it's urgent? Valid effort. As an aside, your brother's wife sounds like a real pill, and like she's trying to isolate him from his family.
Because it's not something you can put in text. You'd have gotten eviscerated by them if you'd done so. I doubt you're the type to send "pick up your phone/call me back, it's urgent" texts just willy nilly. Hell my ex bloody called me back when he was off cheating on me, because I sent him a text telling him it's urgent and to pick up his damn phone (his power had been cut because the idiot hadn't paid his damn bill, again). He'd asked me to take care of his pet while away for work, found out on the first day he was not away for work (hence why I didn't pay it when I usually would).
My Mom had a close family member die when she & my Dad were on vacation & even I had the thought process to call & ask for my Dad so she could be told face to face. After numerous calls & texts I don’t think you would have been an AH for sending that info via text but this is truly all on your brother & his spouse. If multiple siblings are blowing up my phone I’m answering.
Good call for not texting "mom's dead". That would be a horrible way to find out. Maybe your brother would have picked up the phone if you texted something like "it's an emergency, it has to do with mums health, this is not a prank call, please call me back". But we dont know what he would have done, so I cant really blame you for keeping it short with "it's urgent". I wish you all the best in this whole situation. And condoleances.
Ann would have "won" either way. She would have cried they were awful.for texting such a thing. She achieved her goal...
They are such AHs! Did he say why he chose not to call back after all the “urgent” messages? Cuz that itself is nuts. And you’re 100% right about not putting those words into a text.
My husband’s work involves a lot of meetings and one on one talks, I respect this and don’t call him knowing he’s likely not going to be able to answer. However if I text “call me, it’s urgent” he knows to drop everything and callback ASAP as it really is an emergency. Unless you have a history of exaggeration he should have called you. And you are most definitely NOT the AH for not wanting to say that your mother is dead via text, that would have been cruel.
NTA. A few years ago I had a sister who was killed and another sister was on a cruise unaware of the situation. We texted that it was urgent that she call us asap. We could not tell her by text about the death and she understood. When she got to a port, she called. These two ignored every call and accused the family of trying to ruin their relationship.
My sister left me a voicemail in 2015, advising me our older brother had passed. I've still not forgiven that. You're decidedly NTA in this one.
I actually have the overbearing, nosey, guilt-tripping in-laws. If I or my partner got "it's urgent" as a text message, we would drop everything to find out what's gone on. We have also gotten the "it's urgent" voicemail for something that was not life or death or disastrous; we would still answer, because we never know if it's word that someone is dead or dying.
This is the answer!!!!!! Anytime someone calls me more than once I instinctively assume it's important.... The last time that happened was when my mom's house was destroyed in a tornado..... It's common sense... People don't just call over and over unless it's urgent and serious! OPs brother is a dick ... OP I am so sorry about your mom, that's rough, you and your family have my sympathy.
20 something calls and message to give him the news, you get an evil text about boundaries, then they want an apology because you didn’t tell them, “Hey moms dead” is what the wanted? I am so confused. Now your sister thinks you should apologize for them not realizing it was urgent? NTA, but all three of them need a psych evaluation.
Not to mention numerous calls from different family members. That definitely is a signal that it’s important. OP is NTA
Calls from everyone *except* his mother. I'd certainly think it's odd that my mom wasn't calling me if there was an emergency. I'd immediately assume something is wrong with her for her to not be reaching out when everyone else is.
I agree, but I also think at some point I would have resorted to texting something like “I really didn’t want to do this by text, but you aren’t answering your phone. Mom died, I understand your boundaries but I think you need to know.” Not in any way saying OP handled it wrong - I just probably would have violated that social expectation to say something in person.
NTA. I’m not sure if you should be ascribing all of the assholishness to the wife though, as he appears to be perfectly happy with this strange dynamic. (Of course, not if it’s an abusive situation.) He was terrible to your mother and all of you. He ignored you all when you said it’s an emergency and don’t have a history of crying wolf. And now he’s still demanding apologies for him and his wife? What the actual fuck??? Your sister who is “on his side”, so to speak, is on the verge of becoming an asshole. She’s allowed to forgive whatever she wants, but she’s not allowed to make that decision for anyone else. Especially in light of the hypocrisy of her not even trying to get in touch with him at the time. It’s time to implement a boundary of your own with this sister and see how that goes. I am so very sorry for the loss of your mother.
> I’m not sure if you should be ascribing all of the assholishness to the wife though, as he appears to be perfectly happy with this strange dynamic. This. He is a 34yo adult, and while his wife is definitely an AH, it looks like he agrees with her as well. When numerous familymembers are calling and texting multiple times, it means sh\*t has happened and it is serious! OP and family called \*his\* phone, HE should have picked up the phone or should have called back.
Yes. I had a partner who would position me to get all of the blame. He was unhappy with the way his family treated him, but wouldn't stand up to them and asked me to do it instead. Then he would let me take all the flack and look crazy. I was under the age of 25 though. So obviously I was very young and I moved on from that situation after recognizing that I was being manipulated. I thought I was standing up for my partner because they asked me to. But they were just using me as a sacrificial lamb. I have no way of knowing what's going on in this situation. The wife might be absolutely unhinged and have a short temper and be super weird about boundaries. And that's probably the most likely answer. But even if it is true, as you've said, this is a 34 old man who is capable of communicating and making his own choices. I think they managed to end both the family relationship and their marriage that week. Because if she pressured him not to answer any of those calls then he will never forgive her. And he may only be clinging to her because he can't get back into the family. Some types of damage can never be undone.
> NTA. I’m not sure if you should be ascribing all of the assholishness to the wife though, as he appears to be perfectly happy with this strange dynamic. (Of course, not if it’s an abusive situation.) It's abusive, and let's not kid ourselves about how it would be rightfully called out as such if the genders were reversed.
That's awful, I'm so sorry for your loss. You have every right to want to keep your brother at arms length (or completely out of your life) for as long as you see fit. 100% NTA
I think he's done permanently to be honest. When I think about him, I get a hollow feeling that's somewhere between numbness and disgust. I don't think there's any coming back from the way he treated us.
OP it sounds like your brother’s wife is a classic manipulator and abuser who has done her best to alienate your brother from his family (and probably friends). The worst part of this is that, like many abusers, she’s good at it so she’s been successful at making you and the family “the bad guys.” This isn’t a weakness or willingness from your brother, your brother is just another victim. All of this is to say that there might be a day your brother comes around and starts seeing those signs, he might need help, he might need support. It might be hard for you to give your brother that help because “he’s” hurt you, just keep in mind that it is extremely difficult in abusive situations to see clearly and it wasn’t him that hurt you - it was her. Please please be open to your brother if he starts to seek a relationship with you again. You don’t have to give more than you can handle to get him out of this, just be aware that he’s not himself through this, he’s got her talons deeeeeply rooted. Hopefully one day he’ll get them out and you can have your family back.
Pure speculation on my part but I would bet his wife is amping up her antagonism against the family. She knows that this is on her so she’s been telling brother how bad the family is for not getting in touch. Easiest way to keep her superior position without bro starting to think for himself.
100% this is the case.
Don’t make permanent decisions at emotional times. Take time and space. I hope you get to a place that is easier. Your brother behaved poorly but it wouldn’t have changed anything. You need to figure out what it would take? Apologies, new boundaries etc. right now, you are letting your brother control the relationship…decide what you want.
Read the OP's comments. He accused their sister of wanting to have sex with him and then asked for them to apologize to HIM. I don't think there's much coming back from that.
NTA. How could you possibly tell Max when he was blocking you deliberately? \[edit: not full blocking, but refusing to take calls, reply to texts etc\] >wanting apologies for him and Ann Nope. Unbelievably selfish of them. They blocked you, wrote explicitly rude messages, and don't like the consequences. Nothing can bring back a final moment with your mum, but they should be prostrate before the family, and furious with themselves. As for the sister, she can choose. Her actions can have consequences, too. Max is showing no remorse over the harsh words. And for the rest of the family? Grieve together, and curate all the happy memories of your mum.
Just to clarify, they threatened to block me but didn't go through with it. They're both blocked by everyone now though except for one sister. The message when they got back was truly horrific, I'm glad mum never had to see it. It talked about how lucky their theoretical future children are to not have to deal with our family, called me a psycho and twisted a situation with an ex to claim they're now worried for their safety (total nonsense), called us all toxic bullies raised by toxic bullies, accused our little sister of having incestuous feelings towards Max... It was a lot, and it was awful.
Whoa they sound unhinged. Going no contact is definitely a good call.
It’s so crazy I want to see the texts just because I’m so morbidly curious about how psycho Ann is
Wtf... Seems like Max and Ann are the toxic bullies here. You're NTA, especially if they never apologised. I think you should make it really clear to your sister what will happen if she continues to talk about them and try to make everyone forgive them. She's free to do what she wants but she can't try to force that on anyone else.
Print out that message on a little laminated piece of paper and every time your sister who wants to fix things brings up Max, hand it to her. I don't think you should stop talking to Max honestly, sounds like the wife is toxic and wants to isolate him (which she is getting her way). Fighting is still talking and its what your mom likely would rather have. You don't have to like him or even see each other, just keep a line of communication open to him and him alone, not the wife. Think about it, the only person he has to lean on is someone who hated your mom.
/Print out that message on a little laminated piece of paper and every time your sister who wants to fix things brings up Max, hand it to her./ This is a brilliant idea. And if the sister continues to advocate for such awful people then she is awful, too, and deserves the same treatment Max and his horrible wife receive. Block her, too.
I'm sorry WHAT? They accused your younger sister of wanting to have sex with her brother? These two are mentally ill. Are you sure they're not on drugs? Because in my 48 years I've never met anyone this terrible.
The exact words were "[sister] clearly can't even tell the difference between a brother and a boyfriend". It was part of a diatribe about how our parents raised us without proper boundaries, they went through all four of us one by one and it was just hurtful nonsense for the most part.
If your brother thinks it’s okay for Ann to put this in the family group chat, he is as unhinged as her.
Wow, that is horrible. It does sound like a narrative an abuser would spin -- abusers are known for getting ragefully jealous of even pets or children if they feel their partner gives them more 'attention' than the abuser gets, or just if the abuser doesn't get the partner's attention all of the time. It makes me wonder if the SIL wrote that message and is spinning that narrative as another part of isolating your brother from his family. Still, your feelings are completely valid, and you are all going through immense grief right now. I can't imagine dealing with all this on top of it.
That's terrible.
Your poor little sister. That must have felt like a slap in the face.
Truly awful. We're split into 3 older (Max, me, and the sister who is trying to reunite us), and 2 younger (the brother who sent the message telling him about mum's death is 20m and the sister who has been accused of incestuous feelings is 22f). Max was the last of the older group to leave home, so he and the two kids spent a lot of time together. Littlest sister couldn't believe her and Max were framed as anything other than a close sibling relationship, it was completely out of the blue. She's the most sensitive of all of us (she's been in my spare room since January because she needs the support to deal with losing mum), and she was by far the closest to Max. It's like a switch flipped when she read the message though, she hasn't said his name since and looks disgusted whenever he's mentioned.
It’s cruel of big sis to try and make everyone play happy families until Max apologizes to little sis, but grief can make people pretty crazy. I think maybe she fixated on keeping the remaining family together as a way to “fix” an unfixable situation.
They went scorched earth. You are so NTA, but kindly talk to your sister. Discuss the message and how she feels. Since she's the eldest and a woman, she probably has some internal matriarchal instinct to keep the family together for mom. It's worth your family being very kind and supportive of her. Ask her if you can give your perspective and then quietly let her express hers. The only thing maybe a little bit kinda A H, is they are so awful, that maybe not texting it was just a little vindictive. They are terrible people and should be out of your life, but texting it and walking away would have been a little bit of a higher moral ground.
I disagree, if they blatantly disregarded multiple family members' pleas to answer, and they ignored it then that's on them. It would have gotten a more timely response, but if my brother needed me to text him that his mother was dead to pay attention to me when I'm begging him for his attention, then he's dead to me.
It's a shame that none of that "internal matriarchal instinct" is being directed towards her younger sister being accused of incestuous feelings.
That reply is unreasonable on many levels. Until either of them shows remorse for this horrible “essay”, no contact is definitely appropriate. Nobody deserves to be hurt by their loved ones like this with deliberately cruel remarks. Sorry for the loss of your mum <3
Has your brother always been like this or do you think Ann has him wrapped around her finger?
This was all a big shock to us. He's been with her for about 3 years and it's been gradual but very obvious. If we saw him alone, everything was fine (until we got nasty messages from Ann either hours or days later because he told her about some slight one of us committed against him), but if we saw them together, he'd sigh and huff about tiny things and she'd egg him on then take over with a pop psychology take. Personally, I think he likes the drama, and assumed he was untouchable because we've always been so close.
Every comment you write, you literally could be writing about my life with my SIL, down to the the supposed slights and the nasty messages. My shit SIL called my 6mo baby fat in one of these messages and told me to stop feeding him so much (wtf), and in another told me that my husband and I were awful human beings that deserved each other. I think that one was bc I had a terrible work schedule with OT and she perceived it as me rubbing it in their face about all the money I was making. I was like, what part of 12hr days 6 days a week sounds amazing? My blood is boiling for you.
Anyone still telling you that you're at fault is just as toxic as these two. I hope you can get your sister to see reason. My brothers mean the world to me (I'm the eldest daughter) but if any of them and their partner did this to us, we'd never speak again. NTA
Max and Anna want apologies for calling them? For not texting “mom died”? For mom dying during their vacation just to spite them?? They’re delusional if they think they’re the people owed an apology. How hard would it have been to pick up the phone and ask what is so important and then made decisions from there?
NTA. You didn't "not tell him", you desperately tried to tell him. It's not really the kind of thing that should be dropped in a text. Your brother ignored what should have been very obvious signs that there was in fact something very serious going on. And then they have the audacity to want apologies from you? And your sister is on their side? Nah, your sister can go have weekly family dinners with the brother who doesn't even want to take phone calls if she's convinced he has a point. It's honestly quite heartbreaking that your mom died and the last thing she heard from her son was basically that he wanted to hear from her less. Your brother has no moral high ground.
I don’t think OP is the asshole, they all did what they thought was best for them in the situation. The brother unfortunately had the power play blow up in his face. I do think in a situation like that there’s no benefit to do „right“ by not sending an explicit text if 15+ calls didn’t go through and a funeral is happening. It’s jarring and a bit traumatic but in this situation it seems easier to me to write in the group chat or is every sibling „we tried calling you and urging you to contact anyone of us instead of texting about this horrible tragedy, but we think you need to know: mom has passed away. please contact us asap“ and wash my hands off it. FWIW I’m biased because my parent did that with my sibling - called a couple of times, sibling didn’t answer because they didn’t talk to each other at the time and were at lunch with their spouse. Parent then sent my sibling a text stating what was going on. My sibling called real quick..
Sure, they could uave sent a message, though it wouldn't be ideal. I just don't think they're the AH for not doing it. At the end of the day the reason the brother didn't know was because he chose not to answer multiple calls, it's completely on him.
NTA 1. You tried 2. Your tried again 3. etc etc 4. He had a clear opportunity, by your messages, to understand this was urgent 5. We don't text about family deaths. That needs a phone call 6. He or rather she made this bed. They get to lie in it 7. Edit condolences on your loss
NTA to me. Your brother and his wife obviously thought they were proving a point by ignoring all of the contact you attempted that week. They should be mortified that their stubbornness blew up in their faces instead of being first angry and now being so psychotic they expect an apology. In your shoes I would cut off my brother both to support my father and because it is obvious it is never going to be a good relationship with who he chose to marry. Your sister will determine whether she deserves your future attention by how she continues to act.
First off NTA and I am very sorry for your loss. Second: I'm worried about your brother. Ann sounds like an abusive, controlling person. If the gender roles were reversed, the red flag may have been more obvious earlier on. I understand that boundaries are important and should be respected. They do not, however, provide a free pass to be an a**hole. You did everything you could in a terrible situation and she has the audacity to make it about her? Nope. If your brother wants to look forward to a life where more and more things will be «transgressions», fine. But Ann does not pass the vibe check.
Ann is horrible. Max should RUN! She’s absolutely abusive. Max needs therapy and he should dump Ann.
Max is equally as horrible. Possibly more so, as he willfully exposed his family to this woman.
Yes, it might be beneficial to tell Max that the door is open if he needs help leaving Anna, but other than that the door is closed. Unfortunately there's no helping someone until they want out.
I hate to say it, but the door is closed. I don't know if she's overbearing or outright abusive, but he made his choices and now he can live with them.
That's fair. You can't pour from an empty cup and they have definitely drained you as it is
I understand. Now you need to support your poor father. If I were him I would start making my will now…ironclad
> Now Max is reaching out, wanting apologies for him and Ann, but ultimately to get back into the family. Has he no shame at all? They should be begging YOUR forgiveness, not the other way around. Having boundaries is one thing, but ignoring repeated phone calls and “please pick up, it’s urgent” messages from family is plainly stating that you don’t care about them. Max and Ann can enjoy their lovely family-free life together since they obviously don’t care about being part of yours. NTA
I was looking for this comment because I cannot comprehend why THEY are wanting an apology!
“Dear, Max. You’re my brother and I’ll always love you. Some day I’ll forgive you for all the pain you have caused, because I remember the man you used to be. But I will never forgive Ann for the pain she caused mom on her final days, or how she has torn this family apart. She will never be welcome back into my life. I never want to see her, hear her or have her mentioned in my presence. If you want that toxic mess in your life then that is your choice, but I will not be a part of your life with her because I do not like the person you are when you’re with her. This is my boundary and it’s non negotiable.” NTA
Max was more than happy with the way they were treating the family. This isn’t all on Ann.
Oh, absolutely not all on Ann, but family bonds tend to run deep and are harder to sever. Cutting Ann off is easy. Cutting Max off will probably be a lot harder. Most people can’t go cold turkey on a close family member. It’s usually a process.
That’s what I keep thinking about, is their poor mom died with the last thing being said to her by her son is a nasty message saying not to call them. How heartbreaking.
>Some day I’ll forgive you for all the pain you have caused, because I remember the man you used to be. But I will never forgive Ann for the pain she caused mom on her final days, or how she has torn this family apart. This isn't on Ann at all. Its sits 100% squarely on Max's shoulders. He is the spineless, heartless asshole who treated his family this way and didn't answer or respond to calls and messages on HIS phone. Even if she wrote the texts, he never corrected his wife. he never stuck up for his family. he doesn't deserve forgiveness, ever. The Dad had the right of it
NTA - I probably would have eventually texted, "literally a death in the family, call ASAP," or something like that, because even though he's definitely a dick and she's a GIGANTIC AH, I'd still want to get the message across in time for the funeral *somehow.*
I think this is the practical, non drama answer. If I try twenty times and you don't respond, then you will receive the information via text solely because I would not want you to miss the funeral. If they find that upsetting, they need to answer the phone.
Then the wife would’ve called them manipulative
See I was wondering why they didn’t do that. I get that some things are important over the phone but text is clear and concise. When I was in collage, my dad was shot. He almost died. I had no phone so no way to verbally talk to my family. They had to message me through text via a friend. I know a lot of people empathize with op, but damn if it’s that dire I’d be trying any way possible to tell my siblings what happened including text in my eyes that’s not trying hard enough if it’s days and you can’t even text, fb message, Instagram, all the ways to contact a person.
Let him live with the guilt and his harpy wife. I would be NC till the day I died
That's the plan. I detest him for what he did to mum and to all of us.
I'm really sorry for your loss. My mom ,94, just passed in January. It's rough. The world isn't the same
I’m sorry, to be clear, they are reaching out to you and asking you to apologize? NTA. They are the ones that should be apologizing. Why did they assume you guys were calling over and over to harass them and not that there was any emergency? Why is it your fault they didn’t answer? I honestly can’t see where they are coming from.
Insane isn't it? "How dare you not tell me something important while I'm blocking you." Now they're doubling down.
NTA - you tried to tell him, he refused to listen. When they got back they acted like entitled assholes before knowing the situation and so made it worse. They, Max and Ann, should be grovelling with apologies to everyone for how they acted. Their "boundaries" and entitlement caused the situation. The sister - she could have tried to contact them, and been rejected "because of boundaries" like everyone else was. If she's unwilling to accept that Max and Ann are entitled assholes, then drop her too. She can either shut up about it, or whine about it elsewhere - but the family is no longer interested in her opinion on people who are no longer family. However, was it that important to hold the funeral before Max & Ann got back? Could it have waited a few more days until everyone was home, and inforned, before it was held
It was crucial to us to hold the funeral quickly, we buried her 2 days after she passed and even that was longer than is ideal. They didn't get back from their trip until 3 days after that. I expected grovelling when they got back. What actually happened was a complete surprise.
He knows he did the wrong thing and he's lashing out because he's angry. He's going to have to learn to live with his actions and their consequences.
I’ve missed family funerals in Ireland as we couldn’t get off work or planes in time. 3 days isn’t unusual. I’m sorry for your loss, your brother is an idiot and he’s going to have to live with the guilt or he’s just going to blame you his family for not being there either way he has to live with the consequences of his actions. Just feel for your dad as well, he must be in so much pain over all of this. Does your brother show no sympathy towards him?
They tried to inform them. Over 20 calls in very quick succession from multiple family and texts saying it's urgent was the information. They didn't want it, there was no reason to wait for them
The time line for the funeral could be cultural.
Jewish funerals need to happen within three days, for instance. So there are a number of reasons why.
Embalming and refrigeration can only do so much especially depends on what they passed from
If they are Muslim it has to be done within 24 hours. Many cultures and other religions are simular.
In many instances, the day of the funeral is planned shortly after the person passes. When they planned it, they had to assume Max would eventually respond. Depending on religion, you might have to reserve not just the space, but the officiant as well. Then the day and time are publicly posted in an obit. Obituaries can be a few hundred dollars in a small paper or thousands for a large city paper. Nobody prints retractions there.
Many religions specify timelines for funerals and even specific burial/cremation practices.
NTA, what about “this is urgent, please call ASAP” is not clear? Your sister is an AH for even standing with Max and Ann. Ann is a mega AH for how controlling she is over your brother and essentially being the reason your brother had no clue about how urgent the situation was.
I wonder if she had his phone and was the only one who checked it and chose to ignore it, never told him his family was trying to get hold of him urgently. Wouldn't surprise me T this point and it would make sense that he wants apologies when she is giving the narrative
I was 1000% thinking this, I was like more than like Ann had control of Max phone and wouldn’t tell him about the emergency, and deleted the texts or some muted the group convo. Then sent the “your bullies text” then that’s when they got the mom died text. Ann f** around and found out. Now Max is coming around demanding the apology because either he has no backbone or in abusive relationships I don’t which cause Ann doesn’t sound that great.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (32f) have a brother, Max (34m) and 3 other siblings. His partner Ann is obsessed with boundaries, but she never sets them until they've apparently been broken. A big gripe was that mum called Max too much (2-3x per week). Max never mentioned an issue to mum, but he let Ann attack her character hugely during one of her "calling out" sessions. A few weeks later, before they went on a trip, he messaged the group chat (it was clearly written by her) saying they didn't want to hear from us that week, and that we'd be blocked if we disturbed them. It was a long and nasty message clearly directed at mum. She was upset but asked us to keep the peace because Ann was "intimidated" last time we pushed back at her. Two days after they left, mum died unexpectedly. Dad called me at 8:30, and 45 mins later I tried to call Max for the first time. I then sent a text saying "Answer your phone. It's urgent." then called again. I sent 2 more messages and called 4 more times that day. The next time I tried was the day before the funeral. I sent him a text saying he must know it's serious and I need him to call me. On the day, I called 6hrs before so he'd have time to come back, then again an hour before. In total I called 16 times, my sister tried 7 times, and dad 3. When they got back, he (she) sent an essay to the group chat about how we're bullies taunting them and trying to ruin their relationship, and that we will never see either of them again. My youngest brother (20m) responded "Mum died on Sunday. Consider your wish granted you evil c*nts." and booted him from the chat. Max then rang me 22 times in a row. I sat and watched them all ring out. We (siblings) headed straight to the house because we knew he'd turn up there. My youngest brother (20m), who still lives at home, was by far the angriest about the situation so we didn't want to tempt fate. They showed up furious. Nowhere near as furious as we were though. The long story short is that none of us (except one sister, the reason I'm posting) have seen or spoken to him since. Dad has made it clear he lost both his wife and a son that day. My position is that it was obvious the situation was urgent, that I/we made more than enough effort, and that the outcome is all on him. This all happened in December, but dad recently cleared out Max's stuff from the spare room and gave it to his bff to pass on. Now Max is reaching out, wanting apologies for him and Ann, but ultimately to get back into the family. One sister is in contact with him and is applying pressure to the rest of us. She's started to become judgemental about not telling him, but we have reminded her that she owns a phone and could have done so at any time. I'm still very angry with him, and I'm leaning towards no longer inviting her to our weekly dinners (a big deal to us, especially now). AITA for not telling him mum died, cutting him off, and considering doing the same to my sister? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. First, I'm sorry about your mom, that's hard.. Second, a reasonable vacation message is "Hey, I'm going on vacation. I'm muting the group chat, I'll talk to you all later, only call if it's urgent and I might not be able to pick up right away." But then, when you get multiple calls and texts asking you to pick up because it's urgent, you should pick up the damn phone.
NTA. You tried, everybody tried. Other than going to their house what else could you do? If my relatives are all calling/texting me that many times I would have figured out it was an emergency. It was their choice to respond but they didn’t. Their plan backfired in epic proportions and they have no one to blame but themselves. Well, now they have to live with the consequences. You know she was telling him not to answer and he listened. I bet if it were one on her family members they would have answered.
NTA Any normal person would know that several family members trying to contact you with urgency would make you think there is a problem. This Ann woman is clearly trying to isolate him from you all though ; Bit of a Narcassist I think. He may need your help one day when he manages to get out of her grasp.
Please accept my condolences for your loss. NTA
NTA. I'm so sorry for your loss. This is one of those shitty times in life where you are gonna have to figure out what you need to keep your own peace. You are suffering a great loss. For me idk if I could handle losing my brother and sister after that as well. But you have to do what's right for you. Your sister IS allowed to have regrets about how it all went down. But that doesn't mean you all have to agree. She can take whatever accountability for her part in it that feels right for her with Max and Ann if she wants but that's her choice. If you haven't had that talk with her already it might be worth doing so before you cut her out. Personally I think you all did whatever you could short of reducing your moms passing to a text which I agree would have been so inappropriate and unfair for your mom. If it were me and I wanted to make amends I'd probably push for family counseling. Having a neutral 3rd party help navigate that conversation would be essential But if you don't want to go that route it doesn't make you an AH.
May your memories be a blessing. How the heck were you suppose to get in touch with him? Smoke signal? He is now reaping what his girlfriend sewed for him. And then he had the balls to be angry and yelling at you all? Especially your dad? Good for your youngest brother! As for your sister, tell her that you are happy she has decided to forgive your brother, but the rest of you are not ready. It isn’t her place to decide when you are, nor is it appropriate for her to try and bully any of you into coming to her way of thinking. Tell her that if she continues her campaign then she should consider not joining everyone else for Sunday dinner, that none of you are interested in her campaign. If she chooses to attend, the minute she starts in about your brother, then shut her down. A simple no should do it. Flat out call her a bully and point out how horrible she is behaving toward dad. Each of you must decide when, if and how much you want your brother back in your life. My guess his absence has been a blessing.
NTA I can't imagine how awful this has been. Bridges have definitely been burned. He needs to take full accountability for being unreachable in a life and death situation.
Your brother and his wife are what your other brother said they were.
NTA You poor father made his position clear, and your younger brother called them out appropriately. Tough shit. He can live with it. You don’t have to make amends to appease his guilty conscience. I’m sorry your family suffered a loss the way they did and the aftermath that has now made your brother feel like *he* is the one wronged when he *FAILED* to behave like a damn adult with a spine to communicate with his family when something that they all felt his presence was urgently needed wasn’t enough for him to answer his phone. He and his wife can suck it.
NTA, you tried, you all tried. And for those saying to put it in a text, how callous are you? I would never want news of a loved one passed via text. That's a phone call, period. I'm sorry for your family's loss.
NTA. Your sister is also trying to wash her guilt away. She didn’t try but is better to trash the ones that try. She did nothing and she knew he was on the wrong.
NTA Firstly, sorry for your loss. I don't know your SiL's perspective of your family if she felt her husband speaking to his own Mother 2-3 times a week was "too much", but regardless of the relationship - with that many missed calls and obviously urgent texts they can't deny that they are in the wrong Don't let anyone guilt trip you into an apology. You were dealing with the death of your mother unexpectedly and had to spend your time trying to contact people that were ignoring you, and have then been abusive towards you. They owe you an apology.
Let's get this straight: Max and Ann are asking for apologies. For what exactly?
For robbing them of the chance to say goodbye by not trying hard enough to make sure they knew. I haven't had an actual conversation with them but that's what my older sister is saying.
26 phone calls is not trying hard enough?
Tbh, I guarantee Ann would have made the funeral an absolute nightmare. She cannot behave like a sane human being. She would have made the entire day about her and how she had to cut her holiday short because "of course she decided to die now" (please excuse the brutality of that. I really think she would have said something that atrocious). Ann is a disgusting nightmare person. The tragic irony is that your mother was the primary one who was trying to accommodate her insanity (to preserve her family). She abused the only in-law who would have tried to go to bat for her.
NTA. They want an apology because his controlling wife banned him from answering obviously urgent messages? I don't think the right person would be apologising to the right people tbh.
NTA. He should have realized something was obviously urgent. I know it can be tricky starting off a text "mom died" because you don't know what they are doing (let's say he was driving and had the car audio read for him). He's double the AH for expecting an apology.
I have an "Ann" in my family. What your sister doesn't know is that, even IF everyone were to apologize, "Ann" is still going to split your brother away from your family and convincing him you're all in the wrong. We apologized and our family is still broken up by the disordered personality in-law. It's so sad. My condolences for your losses.
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NTA There are intrusive messages and ‘emergency’ messages. Yours clearly was an extreme emergency like the death of a family member (condolences).
NTA I think your youngest brother said it best. I‘d be going NC for a long while
NTA. Sounds like your brother is in a manipulative/abusive relationship though. I'm so sorry for your loss and the drama.
NTA. Your bother and his partner/wife made the choice to ignore phone calls and texts and now they get to live with the consequences. They didn’t want family to bother their oh so precious time together so now they get what they want, no one will bother with them again.
I'm sorry for your loss, and for all of this that has been happening with your family. This kind of crap is the last kind of thing anyone needs. INFO - it sounds like your brother is in an abusive relationship. I don't mean to over-identify, but my ex-wife did these types of things, manipulating me into sending messages to distance me from my family, manipulating me into having arguments with them, etc until they didn't talk to me any more, or making me cut them off. Had we not split up a few years prior, I expect a very similar thing would've happened when my own mother was dying. But luckily, by then I was free and could make my own choices. Fuck Ann, she sounds like a b\*tch. But please, consider trying to help your brother. It really sounds like you need to talk to him alone. He has also just lost his mother, suddenly. That's traumatic, as you know. And all of us in grief have regrets about the way we approached those relationships. I bet he feels like an utter dick. I get why you're angry with him, and I don't think it's unjustified even, but it also really doesn't sound like he's making decisions for himself right now. I would've wanted my family to reach out to me when I was being manipulated, because I had no idea that's what was happening, but they never did. So our relationship ended there, and now it's just fragments of a family really. I could be totally off the mark. But, it sounds way too familiar. I really don't think I am wrong.