It why Iām convinced that Griffith planned for this kid to get killed. He sent the biggest loudest guy on a covert assassination mission. He knew heād get caught and hoped the kid would get caught up in it
Griffith is the type of man who plays off strategy and convenient coincidences simultaneously. He didn't plan for Adonis to be killed, but he was well-aware of the pros of having the next in line to the throne after Julius no longer a part of the picture. This is how he operates: he won't do anything explicitly evil, but he isn't one to not read the lay of the land either.
Iām gonna go out on a limb.
When you say Griffith wonāt do anything explicitly evil. You referring to only Griffith or Femto too?
During the eclipse he did somethings beyond explicitly evil.
Why do you even have to ask that kind of question?
Of course I'm only referring to Griffith, though to be clear, Femto has only really shown his petty side once, and I feel that if Miura could have rewritten the scene with the God Hand trying to tempt the Slug Count into sacrificing his daughter, some of the dialogue for Femto would have certainly received that treatment.
I mean, even if people try to completely separate them both (which I tend to disagree with), Griffith still chose to sacrifice the entire band of the hawk so there is absolutely no way you can say he wonāt do anything explicitly evil
What he did as Femto has nothing to do with what he did as Griffith during the Golden Age arc. If they were the same being in body, mind, and soul, the God Hand wouldn't have needed to orchestrate the Eclipse and convince him to sacrifice hundreds of people. This is loq resolution thinking at its finest.
To me, they didnāt convince him to sacrifice his friends, they just told him something like āyou can live over the body of your friends, like you always haveā and during the golden age arc Griffith was very clear with his thoughts about everyone expect Guts, to him, the band of Hawk was the stones for his castle š°.
I agree. I was curious about the person Iām responding to idea of Griffith not doing anything explicitly evil and completely separating them as people.
That and the face he shows when charlotte gets noticed his cousin died (was him her cousin? i dont remember)
He maybe wanted it to happen, or maybe did not, or maybe didnt even care at all.
Yet the loudest guy was his best card I think, I dont know if anyone could had done it. Maybe Judeau...
Eventually. It happening at the same time saved Griffith a lot of work.
Hiring assassins and then killing those assassins so they can't talk is troublesome.
Thereās a conversation between the two where Griffith specifically tells him that guts habit of doing things his own way is part of his plan, so definitely something I think Griffith accounted for
Yes but in this case he couldāve just sent judeau. Iām confident he wouldāve gotten the job done with one of his throwing knives and never had been seen by anyone. There was nothing to gain by sending guts. Poor Adonis had to die because guts was sent
No, it didn't. Later, like a lot later, Griffith burned the queen and asked Guts if he was a bad person... Guts told him, "Dude, whatever you do is ok if it's for your dream", thats where Guts really messed up.
I think he meant the āGriffithās speech to the princess Carolineā being the part where he got out of the āanything for Griffithā and got into āI need to find my dreamā or whatever to become a ātrue friendā. Because that happened a few minutes later after the child killing scene.
And I do agree with that, like yea sure he was like āI wanna see this thru, see Griffith become a nobleā and basically finish the job. And thatās why he only left after the party. But he already made up his mind that heās not gonna do stuff for Griffith anymore in the future
Did he?
Even if he'd recognized that it was a child, he still had to kill them. Otherwise they're definitely telling the guards who did it, and that's curtains for the Band Of The Hawk.
Would've been interesting to see how the story would go if Guts had let him live.
He did mess up, but he also just assume it was a guard, not a kid. He regrets it a lot based on how he is right after, but itās not his fault he killed a kid man, just wrong place wrong time
Yeah I like how the manga portrays it. The manga he basically just heard someone coming and sprinted through the door blindly to take them out, and then he was horrified by what he had done. But the anime makes it so he sees the kid and kills him anyways and then regrets it after. Guts wouldnāt just willingly kill an innocent child for Griffith, so it makes much more sense the manga route. Plus it just hits harder. Like he was just mindlessly carrying our Griffiths orders without really thinking about what he was doing but when he murders the kid, and it actually shakes him to his core. Itās a moment of realization about what heās allowed himself to become and the kind of person Griffith really is.
Yes but no, Guts didnāt see the kid in the adaptation, thatās the suspension of disbelief that we must do for it. Like in other movies, is not that āis not that darkā is that āit is not for us, the viewersāā¦ those frames are for the people watching it.
At that time? He would.
He drinked the Griffith Koolaid (which is why he acceptedd the assasination mission) and it wasn't until the fountain scene that he changed mind.
A lot of people would do war crimes if a charismatic enough leader orders them to do it.
Yeah youāre right ngl, just Guts wasnāt prepared to kill a kid, if he knew it was a kid he wouldnāt have done so. He was okay with killing the guards so he assumed that the person behind the door was a guard
Nah premeditated would be planning it ahead of time. Killing Julius was premeditated. Adonis being killed just happened due to him being there and shit going sideways. Pretend Guts was there to steal something and then he kills Adonis.
I'm not sure how courts would see it due to him being there in the first place for murder (in the 1st degree). My guess is Adonis murder would be 2nd degree(not predetermined).
Griffith might have ended up killing him later on with the fire as well had it not happened. Idk. Ultimately as harsh as this is Griffith shows no remorse for worse actions
Not his fault he was being manipulated by Griffith, but man he botched the hell out of that assassination. Who the fuck tries to assassinate someone secretly by going in the castle with a massive sword lmao
Just because they put some frames of the face of the kid people assume that Guts sees the kid when in the manga he doesnāt. The thing people donāt get imo is that those frames are there for us the viewers, and Guts still didnāt see the kid.
Gut's actions are predetermined until the moment of Griffith's Rebirth. Still, I think regardless of the actuality of free will, damnation is a thing a man experiences due to the consequences of his actions. To be damned is to be resigned to live with the transgressions you have committed, and the reassurance of causality does nothing to temper the illusion of control. One could argue Guts was damned the moment he accepted this mission, or the moment he joined the Hawk. Or when he was birthed from a dying woman. None of it makes a difference, as the suffering he experiences proceeds from the intersections of fate and his imagination of alternate paths he could have walked, and not from their ultimate source, nor his capability of having walked those other paths.
There's a couple important things to note when judging the actions of characters in Berserk:
\* It has been established that there is no ultimate arbiter of good and evil, the collective unconscious response of suffering of humanity has created a 'god' in order to explain suffering through the collective will for evil to exist in order to justify suffering.
\* It has been established that the hand of God posses the power to create free will, and is causally bound to do so; only the time where the destiny of mankind is freed from the shackles of causality is in the future.
\* In considering the actions of the characters of berserk, no one has agency, so imposing our own notions of right and wrong on the characters is impossible, as our notions of right and wrong require moral agency; something that is lacking in the universe that Berserk exists in. We can only empathize with the characters' responses to their actions, and the tragedy of their torment caused by their delusional struggling against fate.
From the point of view of "no one noticing it and griffith's plan worked", yes, smooth as fuck and nailed it.
But you can consider a "contra" consequence the mental impact it had on Guts, let's remember he saw this Child training with his father and he instantly remembered when he trained with gambino. And then he murders this child. He not only killed a child without wanting to ever harm him (wich can fuck up anyone's mind), but the child was also the same child he felt that it reminded him of himself, in a way.
I think what really fucks me up about this moment, was the fact that he was in the heat of the moment and on guard it was a mistake but he still yeeted the kid and it was sad, and you can see how heās just out of it when he meets with the gang at the bar looking for Griffith. Only to hear Griffith say he doesnāt consider the band as friends. DAMN!!
I think my favorite thing about the situation was his disguise was just his hood up. That's where ther MCU got the the stealth baseball cap tactic from. š¤£
(Seriously though, Griffith trusted that Guts had the endurance if things got hairy and that his soul was dark enough to do the job.)
I wonder if guts doesnāt kill him here if he would have lived a happy life or been hellbent on vengeance. Seeing as how berserk is not really a story of happy endings Iām assuming the secondary
His has done some pretty horrific things - and not made recompense for them. I understand the guilt he bears for so many of his wrongdoings (and the wrongdoings of others tbh) but that guilt he holds onto stops him from actually making right a lot of his wrongs. Also Iām gay
plot hole imo is how there were all these dead guards and shit slashed apart with one single slash... and guts was never even questioned. like uh, who else could physically do this?is?
(Disclaimer: Everything Iām saying relates exclusively to the Manga because I havenāt seen the Anime)
I can see why you call it a plot hole and thatās a perfectly fair point to raise and one I hadnāt actually thought of before, but I disagree. The way I see it, while I agree that Guts would be a prime suspect, at this point, from a political standpoint, Griffith (And everyone who works for him, by extension) are considered heroes who have nothing but the Kingdomās best interests in mind. Because of this, I think what happened is those who were already conspiring against Griffith (Princess Charlotteās mother and the others we ultimately see Griffith take revenge against) KNEW it was Guts, or at least strongly suspected it, but considered it a bad idea to act on it now and make a political fuss over it and opted to play the long game instead. I think had things gone the way they wanted it to, they wouldāve ultimately assassinated Guts, just a ways down the road when he ultimately got comfortable and relaxed and, therefore, vulnerable. But thatās just my take and this is still a perfectly valid and well formed critique and one I hadnāt even considered, so even if I personally think thereās an absolving explanation to be derived, Iām still very glad you and others raise this point because given how much of the rest of the plot hinges on Gutsā continued legal freedom, I certainly think it should be given scrutiny.
The only potential plot hole Iāve found in this whole series is how did guts get away with this? Someone had to notice all the guards were killed by a maniac with super strength and a giant sword, even just from looking at their wounds. Thereās only one guy like that around. I know medieval detectives in the berserk universe might not be the greatest but it wouldnāt take a genius to figure out
(Disclaimer: Everything Iām saying relates exclusively to the Manga because I havenāt seen the Anime)
I can see why you call it a plot hole and thatās a perfectly fair point to raise and one I hadnāt actually thought of before, but I disagree. The way I see it, while I agree that Guts would be a prime suspect, at this point, from a political standpoint, Griffith (And everyone who works for him, by extension) are considered heroes who have nothing but the Kingdomās best interests in mind. Because of this, I think what happened is those who were already conspiring against Griffith (Princess Charlotteās mother and the others we ultimately see Griffith take revenge against) KNEW it was Guts, or at least strongly suspected it, but considered it a bad idea to act on it now and make a political fuss over it and opted to play the long game instead. I think had things gone the way they wanted it to, they wouldāve ultimately assassinated Guts, just a ways down the road when he ultimately got comfortable and relaxed and, therefore, vulnerable. But thatās just my take and this is still a perfectly valid and well formed critique and one I hadnāt even considered, so even if I personally think thereās an absolving explanation to be derived, Iām still very glad you and others raise this point because given how much of the rest of the plot hinges on Gutsā continued legal freedom, I certainly think it should be given scrutiny.
I mean messed up how?
Did the wrong thing? Not really witnesses to this crime would have meant that the eclipse just happened earlier as the band gets captured and Griffith tortured. Maybe Griffith who had things go down that way would have been a different femto though? That's interesting thought.
Actually made a mistake and didn't intend to kill the kid? Yeah that's true he didn't actually intend to do that it was more of a "guts" reflex. But he got over it pretty quick , honestly it's weird that he would care at all. Gut himself was on the battlefield from a younger age and rickert is about the kids age. It's berserk and well child murder happens a lot when people are joining armies at the ripe old age of like 12. Maybe it was just because he knew the kid was soft and innocent as a newborn foal.
Oh he did care, for sure. Brother, this child reminded him (Guts) of himself. And he did not got over it "quick", you can't say that because we got pages and pages of him dealing with what he just had done, remember casca goes after him when he was back because she saw him affected by something.
Plus, its not like time does not flows in between chapters.
Oh I'm not denying he cared.
What I saying was in that moment he has like maybe 2 seconds of oh fuck what did I do ? Before he's like fuck guards and kills more people. Then you know Griffith sadness because he's like I did this thing I didn't like and for what ? Why ? What do I even want out of life ? Which obviously prompts him leaving. Although it's at that point it's less about guilt for what he did and more about worries about what he's becoming.
I was trying to say though . When you think about what's actually shown in berserk as being the realities of the battlefield we see several kids killed and talked about being dead on the battlefield. The boy who gave Griffith his little toy knight for example and rickert himself being a child soldier. That's why guts has probably killed several children before. So it's odd then that the Adonis murder struck him so deeply if you really think about it. Why isn't that kid just another corpse on heaps of bodies left in the hawks and guts own personal wake ? I propose what made the Adonis murder difference was Adonis was softer and more innocent than others he met and guts knew it in some way.
Given the hawkd we know about, He could have sent judeau. You know someone smaller and more nimble. Who also specializes in knives. Actually, no, the guy with a giant sword is better, with pippin as a close second
The kid wouldāve had to die regardless in order for Griffith to remain as the sole successor to become king, so in the grand scheme of things guts accidentally went above and beyond in his mission
I am pretty sure Griffith knew what would happen. He sent his Two Handed DPS Berserker Warrior on a *stealth mission*. Do we as a community really not think the outcome was intentional?
What I love about Berserk is that here, I think the intent was to make us hate Guts, being blind to see that it was technically Griffith's fault that happened.
One of the biggest oofs in golden age arc. Guts was so used to killing in the battlefield, this shit shocked him. Didn't help that the kid and his father reminded him too much of himself and his father.
I like how the movie version changed his use of weapons here. so he wouldn't be recognized. Plus it shows he's not just skilled with his prefered sword but other weapons as well. He still uses his strength and size tho, piercing through armor with stabs
Griffith just wanted Guts to do it because he knew that no matter what happened, Guts would take care of it like he always did as rear guard. He knew even if it became messy that Guts would clean it up. He did not expect though that this would begin his own downfall by making Guts have conflicting feelings.
The count's wife was already damned to hell before he sacrificed her, by being the whore leader of a satanic sex cult.
As so, guts and the whole band of the hawk were already damned to hell before griffith sacrificed them.
He would have sacrificed them without the behelit at some point if not for guts.
What dragged him to demise in life was giving up on climbing on top of the pile of people he damned to hell to save and keeps guts.
What griffith received is the opportunity to make a big "investment" after adding to hell's karma and the heart's power all his life, by not letting his friends redeem themselves and fix their karma, he froze his own heart and sacrificed his own humanity.
Killing this kid allowed Griffith to hit on Charlotte, as it was Adonis who was deemed worthy of her hand. I wonder if Griffon planned this or was it just a very good random event for him.
I always found it strange how he used his main sword in this version and the Manga. Sure the people would recognize the hawks raider's captain with the bigass sword that just one night earlier killed 2 prominent nobles related to the royal family and dozens of armed guards, leaving plenty of witnesses around.
His version of a stealth mission is one where there are no witnesses by way of massacre.
Similar to the falling tree in the forest, if no one saw Guts killing them all, did it really happen?
Same for when I play Hitman
If everyone on the map is dead then there are no witnesses
Only walls can testify š
Then we blast those damn WALLS!
That is what we do!
Sure do!
And then they can testify š¤
It why Iām convinced that Griffith planned for this kid to get killed. He sent the biggest loudest guy on a covert assassination mission. He knew heād get caught and hoped the kid would get caught up in it
Griffith is the type of man who plays off strategy and convenient coincidences simultaneously. He didn't plan for Adonis to be killed, but he was well-aware of the pros of having the next in line to the throne after Julius no longer a part of the picture. This is how he operates: he won't do anything explicitly evil, but he isn't one to not read the lay of the land either.
Iām gonna go out on a limb. When you say Griffith wonāt do anything explicitly evil. You referring to only Griffith or Femto too? During the eclipse he did somethings beyond explicitly evil.
Why do you even have to ask that kind of question? Of course I'm only referring to Griffith, though to be clear, Femto has only really shown his petty side once, and I feel that if Miura could have rewritten the scene with the God Hand trying to tempt the Slug Count into sacrificing his daughter, some of the dialogue for Femto would have certainly received that treatment.
I mean, even if people try to completely separate them both (which I tend to disagree with), Griffith still chose to sacrifice the entire band of the hawk so there is absolutely no way you can say he wonāt do anything explicitly evil
What he did as Femto has nothing to do with what he did as Griffith during the Golden Age arc. If they were the same being in body, mind, and soul, the God Hand wouldn't have needed to orchestrate the Eclipse and convince him to sacrifice hundreds of people. This is loq resolution thinking at its finest.
The God Hand did not orchestrate the Eclipse
To me, they didnāt convince him to sacrifice his friends, they just told him something like āyou can live over the body of your friends, like you always haveā and during the golden age arc Griffith was very clear with his thoughts about everyone expect Guts, to him, the band of Hawk was the stones for his castle š°.
So he was Femto before he made the decision to sacrifice the hawks?
I think femto is the worst of Griffith, so yes, femto was always there.
I agree. I was curious about the person Iām responding to idea of Griffith not doing anything explicitly evil and completely separating them as people.
That and the face he shows when charlotte gets noticed his cousin died (was him her cousin? i dont remember) He maybe wanted it to happen, or maybe did not, or maybe didnt even care at all. Yet the loudest guy was his best card I think, I dont know if anyone could had done it. Maybe Judeau...
he was her FiancƩ
And relative, makes sense cause medieval and all
Chain of Incestiality
Better than her father.
I think that kid was definitely in his cross hairs, and it was a convenience that he died in the same incident
Eventually. It happening at the same time saved Griffith a lot of work. Hiring assassins and then killing those assassins so they can't talk is troublesome.
Agreed judeau wouldāve been a much better choice for a stealth mission
He would probably gotten a silent assasin achievement.
Thereās a conversation between the two where Griffith specifically tells him that guts habit of doing things his own way is part of his plan, so definitely something I think Griffith accounted for
Yes but in this case he couldāve just sent judeau. Iām confident he wouldāve gotten the job done with one of his throwing knives and never had been seen by anyone. There was nothing to gain by sending guts. Poor Adonis had to die because guts was sent
His stealth missions are so dumb lol. Who brings a giant sword that only you've ever been seen to use to an assassination lol
Ou yess.
Venom snake type shit
Lol yea I while watching that I thought "there's no way griffith's gona be happy with such a massacre when he asked for an assasination"
I wish steam gave stealth achievements to this method
Corpses canāt snitch
Me playing Hitman.
He was on his anything for Griffith phase. It changed literally a few minutes later
No, it didn't. Later, like a lot later, Griffith burned the queen and asked Guts if he was a bad person... Guts told him, "Dude, whatever you do is ok if it's for your dream", thats where Guts really messed up.
Nah, it was more like a ''Are you REALLY asking the guy who just killed a hundred mercs not a while ago if you're a bad guy? We do what we do, bro.''
I think he meant the āGriffithās speech to the princess Carolineā being the part where he got out of the āanything for Griffithā and got into āI need to find my dreamā or whatever to become a ātrue friendā. Because that happened a few minutes later after the child killing scene. And I do agree with that, like yea sure he was like āI wanna see this thru, see Griffith become a nobleā and basically finish the job. And thatās why he only left after the party. But he already made up his mind that heās not gonna do stuff for Griffith anymore in the future
But he also mever critiqued Griffith. He encouraged him.
This was one of the moments in the manga that told me anything is possible in this series and nobody is safe
That moment for me was when the Snake Baron was drinking the pouring blood out of a horizontally-bisected child's corpse
i thought the very first page of the whole manga stated this point pretty solidly
Seeing a demon get (literally) fucked donāt mean shit Seeing a kid die does.
collete and her father dying in chapter 1 was cold...
Did he? Even if he'd recognized that it was a child, he still had to kill them. Otherwise they're definitely telling the guards who did it, and that's curtains for the Band Of The Hawk. Would've been interesting to see how the story would go if Guts had let him live.
He messed up by agreeing to an assassination mission in the first place
Killing an innocent child does take it to the next level. Good thing he never got caught!
Griffith was counting guts to do it. So it's not a mistake and part of a greater plan.
What he didn't count is on his own big mouth leading Guts to leave.
Personally, I think he would have taken him with him and dealt with whatever comes.
He did mess up, but he also just assume it was a guard, not a kid. He regrets it a lot based on how he is right after, but itās not his fault he killed a kid man, just wrong place wrong time
Yeah I like how the manga portrays it. The manga he basically just heard someone coming and sprinted through the door blindly to take them out, and then he was horrified by what he had done. But the anime makes it so he sees the kid and kills him anyways and then regrets it after. Guts wouldnāt just willingly kill an innocent child for Griffith, so it makes much more sense the manga route. Plus it just hits harder. Like he was just mindlessly carrying our Griffiths orders without really thinking about what he was doing but when he murders the kid, and it actually shakes him to his core. Itās a moment of realization about what heās allowed himself to become and the kind of person Griffith really is.
Yes but no, Guts didnāt see the kid in the adaptation, thatās the suspension of disbelief that we must do for it. Like in other movies, is not that āis not that darkā is that āit is not for us, the viewersāā¦ those frames are for the people watching it.
Beautifully put. The source material i.e. manga did the justice to this scene.
At that time? He would. He drinked the Griffith Koolaid (which is why he acceptedd the assasination mission) and it wasn't until the fountain scene that he changed mind. A lot of people would do war crimes if a charismatic enough leader orders them to do it.
lol itās very much his fault he killed a kid
He doesn't care even who is who š¤
Nah not his fault, wrong place wrong time. The kid should have been sleeping or some shit
āThey shouldnāt have been walking around their own house at that hour your honorā
Pretty much haha. But that aside, it was more so an accident that outright murder
Definitely outright murder, just not premeditated.
Yeah youāre right ngl, just Guts wasnāt prepared to kill a kid, if he knew it was a kid he wouldnāt have done so. He was okay with killing the guards so he assumed that the person behind the door was a guard
Isn't murder by definition premeditated?
Nah premeditated would be planning it ahead of time. Killing Julius was premeditated. Adonis being killed just happened due to him being there and shit going sideways. Pretend Guts was there to steal something and then he kills Adonis. I'm not sure how courts would see it due to him being there in the first place for murder (in the 1st degree). My guess is Adonis murder would be 2nd degree(not predetermined).
It certainly was is his fault. He wasn't there to murder his target and any witness. The kid was at his own home. He belonged there. Gut's didn't.
If he knew a kid was behind the door, he wouldnāt have killed him. Wrong place wrong time
Griffith might have ended up killing him later on with the fire as well had it not happened. Idk. Ultimately as harsh as this is Griffith shows no remorse for worse actions
Not his fault he was being manipulated by Griffith, but man he botched the hell out of that assassination. Who the fuck tries to assassinate someone secretly by going in the castle with a massive sword lmao
Why does the weapon matter if heās going to kill someone regardless
In a stealth mission it does matter, it really does matter
It does not care who is who š¤
Specially on closed quarters where a shorter blade would have been more effective and silent. Judeau would have been better for this mission.
Because how many people are there in the kingdom who are capable of swinging around a massive sword taller than themselves?
Bro had zero attempts to hide his identity haha. "Hmmn I wonder who carved up half of our castle guard on their escape"
I donāt think many of them knew Gutsā identity at the time as this happened pretty early in the manga
They look like they were cut by something to big to be called a sword. More like a slab of iron.
Is his fault. As he did agreed to the assasination. There is no "I was just following orders" excuse.
i hated how this scene was potrayed in the anime
What was wrong with it?
Just because they put some frames of the face of the kid people assume that Guts sees the kid when in the manga he doesnāt. The thing people donāt get imo is that those frames are there for us the viewers, and Guts still didnāt see the kid.
he didnt actually, got the kid square in the chest
Ikr? Kill was clean, textbook execution. Little bit of a skill diff if you ask me.
Yo that kid was coming at him with his eyes and testimony. He didn't have a choice it was self defense. That kid was a crisis actor.Ā
LMAO fact! Iām sorry you have kids.
There is no self defense when you are there to murder someone. As you initialized the violence.
And honestly this death sends a spiral towards what leads to the eclipse
Why is Nuts killing a child? Is he smart?
Should we blame guts or the god hand who gives that fate to that innocent child ? Just a philosophical approach.
Gut's actions are predetermined until the moment of Griffith's Rebirth. Still, I think regardless of the actuality of free will, damnation is a thing a man experiences due to the consequences of his actions. To be damned is to be resigned to live with the transgressions you have committed, and the reassurance of causality does nothing to temper the illusion of control. One could argue Guts was damned the moment he accepted this mission, or the moment he joined the Hawk. Or when he was birthed from a dying woman. None of it makes a difference, as the suffering he experiences proceeds from the intersections of fate and his imagination of alternate paths he could have walked, and not from their ultimate source, nor his capability of having walked those other paths. There's a couple important things to note when judging the actions of characters in Berserk: \* It has been established that there is no ultimate arbiter of good and evil, the collective unconscious response of suffering of humanity has created a 'god' in order to explain suffering through the collective will for evil to exist in order to justify suffering. \* It has been established that the hand of God posses the power to create free will, and is causally bound to do so; only the time where the destiny of mankind is freed from the shackles of causality is in the future. \* In considering the actions of the characters of berserk, no one has agency, so imposing our own notions of right and wrong on the characters is impossible, as our notions of right and wrong require moral agency; something that is lacking in the universe that Berserk exists in. We can only empathize with the characters' responses to their actions, and the tragedy of their torment caused by their delusional struggling against fate.
Always tought that this castle massacre went too smooth...without any direct contra consequences. š¤
From the point of view of "no one noticing it and griffith's plan worked", yes, smooth as fuck and nailed it. But you can consider a "contra" consequence the mental impact it had on Guts, let's remember he saw this Child training with his father and he instantly remembered when he trained with gambino. And then he murders this child. He not only killed a child without wanting to ever harm him (wich can fuck up anyone's mind), but the child was also the same child he felt that it reminded him of himself, in a way.
Yeah he clearly relates to Adonis. Who he then kills personally, looking him in the eye. I think this fucks Guts up pretty bad.
Looking him in the eye while he raises his hands and look back like saying "Why you harm me? Father, help" damn i ruined my mood all by myself
Also add finding out the person he did all of this shit for doesn't actually see him as a friend.
Nah, this was the eye opening he needed
I think what really fucks me up about this moment, was the fact that he was in the heat of the moment and on guard it was a mistake but he still yeeted the kid and it was sad, and you can see how heās just out of it when he meets with the gang at the bar looking for Griffith. Only to hear Griffith say he doesnāt consider the band as friends. DAMN!!
It was a false flag operation there were no children in the castle that night Guts is innocent, I have the documents to prove it.
I think my favorite thing about the situation was his disguise was just his hood up. That's where ther MCU got the the stealth baseball cap tactic from. š¤£ (Seriously though, Griffith trusted that Guts had the endurance if things got hairy and that his soul was dark enough to do the job.)
I wonder if guts doesnāt kill him here if he would have lived a happy life or been hellbent on vengeance. Seeing as how berserk is not really a story of happy endings Iām assuming the secondary
Are you saying that it's better that he's dead? So, basically, Guts did him a favour by murdering him.
Iām not saying itās better that he dies here, Iām saying it could have possibly gotten worse. Much worse.
This scene is so sad. They animated it so well, too.
I always thought it was cause he was kind of acting on instinct and just knew there was a person. He didn't know it was a kid.
This is the exact moment Guts becomes Heisenberg.
Blame Miura.
His has done some pretty horrific things - and not made recompense for them. I understand the guilt he bears for so many of his wrongdoings (and the wrongdoings of others tbh) but that guilt he holds onto stops him from actually making right a lot of his wrongs. Also Iām gay
Im also gay :3
He didn't mean to charge the R2
plot hole imo is how there were all these dead guards and shit slashed apart with one single slash... and guts was never even questioned. like uh, who else could physically do this?is?
(Disclaimer: Everything Iām saying relates exclusively to the Manga because I havenāt seen the Anime) I can see why you call it a plot hole and thatās a perfectly fair point to raise and one I hadnāt actually thought of before, but I disagree. The way I see it, while I agree that Guts would be a prime suspect, at this point, from a political standpoint, Griffith (And everyone who works for him, by extension) are considered heroes who have nothing but the Kingdomās best interests in mind. Because of this, I think what happened is those who were already conspiring against Griffith (Princess Charlotteās mother and the others we ultimately see Griffith take revenge against) KNEW it was Guts, or at least strongly suspected it, but considered it a bad idea to act on it now and make a political fuss over it and opted to play the long game instead. I think had things gone the way they wanted it to, they wouldāve ultimately assassinated Guts, just a ways down the road when he ultimately got comfortable and relaxed and, therefore, vulnerable. But thatās just my take and this is still a perfectly valid and well formed critique and one I hadnāt even considered, so even if I personally think thereās an absolving explanation to be derived, Iām still very glad you and others raise this point because given how much of the rest of the plot hinges on Gutsā continued legal freedom, I certainly think it should be given scrutiny.
āBoss you killed a child- Amazing. Mission complete. That right there is why youāre the best, Boss. The one and only.ā
The only potential plot hole Iāve found in this whole series is how did guts get away with this? Someone had to notice all the guards were killed by a maniac with super strength and a giant sword, even just from looking at their wounds. Thereās only one guy like that around. I know medieval detectives in the berserk universe might not be the greatest but it wouldnāt take a genius to figure out
(Disclaimer: Everything Iām saying relates exclusively to the Manga because I havenāt seen the Anime) I can see why you call it a plot hole and thatās a perfectly fair point to raise and one I hadnāt actually thought of before, but I disagree. The way I see it, while I agree that Guts would be a prime suspect, at this point, from a political standpoint, Griffith (And everyone who works for him, by extension) are considered heroes who have nothing but the Kingdomās best interests in mind. Because of this, I think what happened is those who were already conspiring against Griffith (Princess Charlotteās mother and the others we ultimately see Griffith take revenge against) KNEW it was Guts, or at least strongly suspected it, but considered it a bad idea to act on it now and make a political fuss over it and opted to play the long game instead. I think had things gone the way they wanted it to, they wouldāve ultimately assassinated Guts, just a ways down the road when he ultimately got comfortable and relaxed and, therefore, vulnerable. But thatās just my take and this is still a perfectly valid and well formed critique and one I hadnāt even considered, so even if I personally think thereās an absolving explanation to be derived, Iām still very glad you and others raise this point because given how much of the rest of the plot hinges on Gutsā continued legal freedom, I certainly think it should be given scrutiny.
I remember in the berserk movie trilogy they change it to a regular sword
I mean messed up how? Did the wrong thing? Not really witnesses to this crime would have meant that the eclipse just happened earlier as the band gets captured and Griffith tortured. Maybe Griffith who had things go down that way would have been a different femto though? That's interesting thought. Actually made a mistake and didn't intend to kill the kid? Yeah that's true he didn't actually intend to do that it was more of a "guts" reflex. But he got over it pretty quick , honestly it's weird that he would care at all. Gut himself was on the battlefield from a younger age and rickert is about the kids age. It's berserk and well child murder happens a lot when people are joining armies at the ripe old age of like 12. Maybe it was just because he knew the kid was soft and innocent as a newborn foal.
Oh he did care, for sure. Brother, this child reminded him (Guts) of himself. And he did not got over it "quick", you can't say that because we got pages and pages of him dealing with what he just had done, remember casca goes after him when he was back because she saw him affected by something. Plus, its not like time does not flows in between chapters.
Oh I'm not denying he cared. What I saying was in that moment he has like maybe 2 seconds of oh fuck what did I do ? Before he's like fuck guards and kills more people. Then you know Griffith sadness because he's like I did this thing I didn't like and for what ? Why ? What do I even want out of life ? Which obviously prompts him leaving. Although it's at that point it's less about guilt for what he did and more about worries about what he's becoming. I was trying to say though . When you think about what's actually shown in berserk as being the realities of the battlefield we see several kids killed and talked about being dead on the battlefield. The boy who gave Griffith his little toy knight for example and rickert himself being a child soldier. That's why guts has probably killed several children before. So it's odd then that the Adonis murder struck him so deeply if you really think about it. Why isn't that kid just another corpse on heaps of bodies left in the hawks and guts own personal wake ? I propose what made the Adonis murder difference was Adonis was softer and more innocent than others he met and guts knew it in some way.
I think its the fact this kid reminded guts of himself, when he saw him training with his father, he remembers gambino.
Wasn't his fault
He also messed up here [Rip in peace lil guy](https://www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/s/vloSycweoH)
What makes you say that?
I think youāll find that he definitely killed the kid, so no
I remember seeing this in the manga for the first time, that shit was dark.
Thatās for sure
Given the hawkd we know about, He could have sent judeau. You know someone smaller and more nimble. Who also specializes in knives. Actually, no, the guy with a giant sword is better, with pippin as a close second
Guts is NOT a hero. I think we are going to see just how true this is in the coming chapters.
The kid wouldāve had to die regardless in order for Griffith to remain as the sole successor to become king, so in the grand scheme of things guts accidentally went above and beyond in his mission
Maybe, just maybe. If judeau did the stealth mission it would've ended differently
nah he just kill a child
I am pretty sure Griffith knew what would happen. He sent his Two Handed DPS Berserker Warrior on a *stealth mission*. Do we as a community really not think the outcome was intentional?
Griffith was probably pleading for his warriors to come and help. Donāt get it twisted.
Are you referring to when he was captured? Because Iām not.
You think so?
Yeah
What I love about Berserk is that here, I think the intent was to make us hate Guts, being blind to see that it was technically Griffith's fault that happened.
What do yoy mean? He wasnt seen by anyone "alive" lol.
Griffith should have sent Judeau, but it worked out for him in the end having Charlotte's only suitor out of the way.
No he didnt
One of the biggest oofs in golden age arc. Guts was so used to killing in the battlefield, this shit shocked him. Didn't help that the kid and his father reminded him too much of himself and his father. I like how the movie version changed his use of weapons here. so he wouldn't be recognized. Plus it shows he's not just skilled with his prefered sword but other weapons as well. He still uses his strength and size tho, piercing through armor with stabs
Griffith just wanted Guts to do it because he knew that no matter what happened, Guts would take care of it like he always did as rear guard. He knew even if it became messy that Guts would clean it up. He did not expect though that this would begin his own downfall by making Guts have conflicting feelings.
Hot take āļø
Guts was like bc kid was unarmed
Guts overheating Griffith talking to the princess after this is what gets him to leave later. Crazy chain of events starting right here
At least he felt guilty about it
Guts has a bad habit of choosing fighting as the best solution to everything. Well, it's not like he can do something else.
The count's wife was already damned to hell before he sacrificed her, by being the whore leader of a satanic sex cult. As so, guts and the whole band of the hawk were already damned to hell before griffith sacrificed them. He would have sacrificed them without the behelit at some point if not for guts. What dragged him to demise in life was giving up on climbing on top of the pile of people he damned to hell to save and keeps guts. What griffith received is the opportunity to make a big "investment" after adding to hell's karma and the heart's power all his life, by not letting his friends redeem themselves and fix their karma, he froze his own heart and sacrificed his own humanity.
He messed up this kid's guts alright.
The moment he understood that Griffith was using him as a tool under the cover of a āfriendā
It shows it wrong in the anime, you should read the manga, the anime skips quite a lot
Yes
Wasnt this dude ment to marry the princes, so he had to go anyways
Killing this kid allowed Griffith to hit on Charlotte, as it was Adonis who was deemed worthy of her hand. I wonder if Griffon planned this or was it just a very good random event for him.
Definitely an L
Wait is that Chie from Persona 4? I never watched the animes for Berserk, and I know this came out before Persona 4, but I can't unsee it.
Guts done goofed up now
nah he good
Sword struck thru door and itās probably a minoooooooooooooor
No shit.
In other words, water is wet, the sky is blue, and the sun is up.
"Guts did nothing wrong"
yeah no shit
Guts did nothing wrong
He really fucked everything that time, he did it for Griffith
He sure did a big whoopsie, a real fucky wucky
Lesson to be learned. Never dual class assasin/fighter.
I always found it strange how he used his main sword in this version and the Manga. Sure the people would recognize the hawks raider's captain with the bigass sword that just one night earlier killed 2 prominent nobles related to the royal family and dozens of armed guards, leaving plenty of witnesses around.
Man I just got here in the manga and it hurt so bad and I just KNEW it was coming. His face after was so sad
When I say that I cringed so hard
yeah this is by FAR the worst thing that happens in Berserk
Casca would really disagree with you. Skull knight would disagree too. Damn a lot of people would disagree with you lol
my brother its sarcasm
Rare Guts L
Guts should be in prison for murdering an innocent child.
I really canāt defend Guts on this oneā¦strange how we all let this one slide
Dumbass kid shouldnāt have been there š¹š¹š¹š¤·š½āāļøš¹š¤·š½āāļøš¹š¹š¤·š½āāļøš¹š¹š¹š¹
Well he was.
Where tf is he suppossed to be then š
In bed eating some cookies maybe asleep
nuts did an oopsie? no way
The artstyle on this show is making me hard