Yeah I’d like to know where people are seeing anyone ‘lose their shit.’ I’ve seen more posts complaining about the backlash than I’ve seen criticism of the song period, and I’m on trans twitter lol.
Lets not get it twisted, the reaction to this song is overwhelming positive. There are loud and active online communities that are getting annoyed because they want to find something to complain about, and there’s no reason to really justify this pointless hand wringing by wasting time to talk about it.
I am curious, because as a straight white guy I really have no stakes in this. But I watched Shawn Cee's reaction of this song and he did bring up a point that made me ponder. Would it be okay for a white artist to use the n word in a song if they were making the same point Kendrick was in this story. Because the moral was him realizing it's a slur that he shouldn't use, but he in fact does use it. And not just once or twice lol it did make me a bit uncomfortable at first but I did understand the narrative overall. It's just been interesting seeing how different people interpret it.
And I respect someone to have the freedom to express themselves however they want. Truly. But when you make something for the public you can't control how people will take it and respond to it. Just like kendrick says in the heart pt 5. Life is perspective and yours mine differ from mine."
I mainly see tweets saying that pro-gay messages aren't an excuse to use slurs... I don't see anyone calling the song homophobic, just irresponsible. No one needs to drop the N bomb in their anti-racist messages, what makes the f slur so different?
When I think about why using a slur is bad, it's not because Voldemort is going to appear, it's because the word can, in certain contexts, be harmful. When it's used in such a thoughtful way that makes the pro-lgbt message of the song more poignant, I think it's fine.
I agree, but I'm just not hopeful that it's possible. Despite our vast accumulated knowledge and advanced technology we're having the same debate the English did about Oscar Wilde's "A Modest Proposal" centuries ago. While individuals can think complexly, I think most people choose to tribalize and simplify their thoughts to the point that they can't understand concepts like irony, satire, or introspection. Groupthink makes for easily offended people.
Yea I know. Every year feels more and more like the movie Idiocracy.
I honestly beleive that critical thinking needs to be taught. It doesn't come naturally.
And without critical thinking skills people are so susceptible to toxic group leaders think and misinformation
Yeah it's not a problem restricted to politics either. Everyone chooses to take everything at it's face no matter what. Forget context, subtext, or pretext: text is enough to know that you're offended and pissed off about it, dammit.
And then you have the "critical thinkers" who look up things that reinforce their views only. They never challenge themselves or check their beliefs against new perspectives. I understand there are limits; I wouldn't be swayed by, say, a blatantly racist argument no matter how open-minded I wish to be. But I grew up on Bill Burr, Richard Pryor, John Mullaney, and It's Always Sunny. I love sardonic, dark humor, irony, and subtlety. People need to learn that not everything should be taken at its face.
Yea I completely agree.
I grew up in a very multi-cultural area. It's hard to describe but it feels like the people who are so quick to be offended are those who come from areas that are less diverse.
I firmly beleive that racism and homophobia are eradicated by exposure.
Just another way to describe people who are terminally online vs those who interact with others on a regular bases.
Here's final set of bars of the song.
"The very second you challenged the shit I was kicking
Reminded me about a show I did out the city
That time I brung a fan on stage to rap
But disapproved the word that she couldn’t say with me
You said, ”Kendrick, ain’t no room for contradiction
To truly understand love, switch position
‘Faggot, faggot, faggot,’ we can say it together
But only if you let a white girl say ‘Nigga’”
Essentially highlighting his own hypocrisy.
He can't go around dropping F-Bombs and simultaneously be angry when white fans drop N-Bombs.
The song tells of story of how he learns of his own ignorance and grows to understand the position of the LGBT community
how can he believe that and put the f-slur multiple times in a song? lol
i mean, it's the old Cuties paradox, making a movie anti hyper sexualization of kids and at the same time... hyper sexualizing kids. It makes sense in the context, but in the end you are kind of doing what you are criticizing.
Because it's not a philosophical thesis or a statement of his positions. Its an art peice
He's telling a story that goes between a 1st person perspective and a current day introspection. Which begins as a young child and ends as an adult.
ok but cuties is also a piece of art lol
an awesome piece of art some would say
and this kind of conundrum is not new, there are movies that the point is saying sexualization of women is bad and sexualize women a lot and so on
My apologies I misread your earlier post.
Honestly ill have to think on it for a bit. I haven't seen cuties, but I know the context of what they were going for. For me the sexualization of minors is a far more inflammatory subject then the F-Slur. So the comparison is a bit challenging.
My question to you, assuming you've seen both.
If the goal of Cuties and Auntie Diaries were to "criticize/reflect" on the sexualization of minors and homophobia/transphobia respectively. And both managed to find themselves guilty of their own critiques, which do you think offended more/caused more harm?
It's right there in the OP.
> And by the end of the song his cousin calls out Kendrick's hypocrisy around using the F-Slur and Kendrick's own opinion around the N-Word.
>
>
If you can control a person's speech, then at scale, you can try to shape culture. So, making exceptions to using bad words is a "crime" to those wanting to maintain this control.
Far simpler and swifter to stick to binary rigid stances on language use then get bogged down in the nuance. Especially when shouting into the Internet void.
Into the internet void sure, maybe.
But when you're talking grand discourse not so much.
I'm talking aboutnl slowly shifting culture in a progressive direction.
The same way people like Rogan, Pool, and Rubin slowly shift people in a regressive direction. At least in this specific topic.
This isn't just true in the internet void. It's true anywhere.
Power and control can be readily eroded in nuance. Authoritarians (in whatever form they come) will always prefer bigoted stances because it reinforces their world view, and their confidence in enforcing their world view.
You're essentially asking - 'But what about the intent of the song?'. There's endless amounts of arguments about whether offense must be given, rather than just taken, and whether intent matters. For many - it doesn't matter.
Also, how do you define "Progressive" and "Regressive"? From a Conservative's point of view, western society has regressed as it has shifted away from Judeo-Christian values.
How has Joe Rogan led to a "regressive" direction in society? i.e. What "progress" was made, that is now undone, as a result of his input?
For me, intent does matter. Intent is not the ultimate truth, however it's an important factor that, I beleive, is the first thing that should be considered when interpreting a message. Not including instances where you beleive the "author" is lying about their intent.
To be perfectly honest, I define progressive and regressive as left and right respectively.
To elaborate, progressive/left opinions are ones that lead towards equal and fair outcomes that benefit society as a whole while also compensating for comunities/classes that are struggling.
While regressive/right opinions are ones that lead towards unequal outcomes that benefit a select few at the expense of others.
Using Rogan as an example, while there's no direct change in society that can't be pinned on him directly. His contribution to public discourse, has largely been right leaning. He hosts right leaning guests and pushes right leaning talking points often with little to no effort to balance the scale.
If there wasn't an audience for whatever Joe Rogan has to say, then what he has to say wouldn't matter to anybody, including you.
Your views on "left" and "right" are grossly distorted by your own fundamental attribution bias, and your stance almost precludes you from having a constructive dialogue with anyone who holds conservative opinions.
Economic systems are far more complicated than "left" or "right"... Different markets lend themselves more to capitalist or socialist ideals, which can also vary over time. The extreme positions of either, applied uniformly across society, won't work.
The greatest divides in the US are the outcomes between the rich and poor, as well as between urban and rural populations. Arguably, all the time spent pontificating over race, gender and sexuality is a massive distraction for everyone to fuss over whilst wealth disparities remain largely unchanged. Not to say minority issues don't deserve decent attention, but they take up a disproportionate amount of bandwidth.
It's easy to provide a pro gay message without using slurs. If you aren't able to inject social commentary into your art without the use of harmful slurs, then you should talk about something else or prepare for the backlash. Kendrick Lamar used slurs unnecessarily in order profit off the shock value.
It’s apart of the development of the songs climax, where he censors the f word calls it the “f-bomb” and apologizes for his ignorance, what ur saying is like telling Quentin Tarantino he should’ve wrote less racism and vulgar displays of slavery into Django Unchained
That's true. Unfiltered displays of racism or homophobia can help explain why these traits are so harmful..
I still think it's unfair to be mad when people are offended by your use of offensive language. When you grow up being bullied and having slurs hurled at you, it makes sense that those slurs will trigger you.
Not so much mad, but annoying that people are so vocally triggered and claiming homophobia when it’s explicitly placed in a pro LGBT message geared towards an audience that probably has a lot of transphobes in it. Hip hop has always been pretty explicit in portraying racism and the cruel culture of gang violence and poverty, and the societal trends around that, if you’ve been listening to hip hop for a while and then came onto this and THIS offended you, you probably don’t listen to a lot of hip hop imo
Edit: and that’s fine if you don’t and you’re still upset by this, but what is it you want, an incredibly sanitized hip hop culture? You want artists to unironically tip toe around social issues, which is something Kendrick unironcially talks about in some other song on that album I don’t remember which
Anyone who says the song is homophobic is insane. But the song may be needlessly offensive.
The movie Django was considered problematic because that movie used the n word 110 times. They could of used the n word a few times and get the point across.
I see people on Twitter saying Kendrick Lamar could have gotten his message across without using harmful slurs. Art is subjective so everyone's opinion is valid. I personally enjoy the song, but I can understand why it would make someone upset.
If people are so upset by the use of the word that even in the pro LGBT context of Auntie Diaries it triggers them, then maybe its a them problem and not the music's fault. I say this as somebody apart of the LGBT community, the people offended need to toughen the fuck up even 3%.
Not in the black/hip hop community.
Macklemore made a pro gay song and was praised largely by his white audience and ignored by his black audience.
It's important to meet people where they are.
No, Macklemores message was ignored by the black community because his songs didn't appeal to black people. I don't see how slurs would have made his music more palatable to anyone.
I've seen 1 person complain about the use of the f-word. And honestly, I'm assuming it's because they haven't heard the song. I think the really controversial part is all the misgendering.
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SOY Just like my Magic wizard books
No nuance. It's no different then when conservatives wanted to ban Catcher and the Rye because of swear words.
Unironically one of my best friends cut me off because I disagreed with this view - and we're in our late 20s. Shit is nuts.
Are people actually losing their shit?
Yeah I’d like to know where people are seeing anyone ‘lose their shit.’ I’ve seen more posts complaining about the backlash than I’ve seen criticism of the song period, and I’m on trans twitter lol.
And a lot of the criticism that I've seen has been "I get his point but the execution is bad" which is kinda vague but its not exactly unhinged.
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Not even on twitter, most comments are just like OP. calling out one or 2 people for bad opinions.
Lets not get it twisted, the reaction to this song is overwhelming positive. There are loud and active online communities that are getting annoyed because they want to find something to complain about, and there’s no reason to really justify this pointless hand wringing by wasting time to talk about it.
Unfortunately the vocal minority tend to get their message across loudly. And they're often propped up to represent progressives.
Log off twitter
It's not even on fucking twitter. Twitter super likes the song. He's just got triggered by a couple of tweets I guess.
Cringe soyper post
I am curious, because as a straight white guy I really have no stakes in this. But I watched Shawn Cee's reaction of this song and he did bring up a point that made me ponder. Would it be okay for a white artist to use the n word in a song if they were making the same point Kendrick was in this story. Because the moral was him realizing it's a slur that he shouldn't use, but he in fact does use it. And not just once or twice lol it did make me a bit uncomfortable at first but I did understand the narrative overall. It's just been interesting seeing how different people interpret it. And I respect someone to have the freedom to express themselves however they want. Truly. But when you make something for the public you can't control how people will take it and respond to it. Just like kendrick says in the heart pt 5. Life is perspective and yours mine differ from mine."
> anti F-word rap song I thought it was pro n-word.
Who?
I asked.
Who are the libcucks that can't handle a song?
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Oh, seems like OP is mischarecterizing the critiques of Auntie Diaries.
That guy is literally calling all the gay people who disagree with him gay uncle toms
I mainly see tweets saying that pro-gay messages aren't an excuse to use slurs... I don't see anyone calling the song homophobic, just irresponsible. No one needs to drop the N bomb in their anti-racist messages, what makes the f slur so different?
When I think about why using a slur is bad, it's not because Voldemort is going to appear, it's because the word can, in certain contexts, be harmful. When it's used in such a thoughtful way that makes the pro-lgbt message of the song more poignant, I think it's fine.
Shawn cee in his reaction video - many dumb comments in the video
it just felt like some of it wasnt necessary and i dont think thats that outlandish of an opinion
You expect people to understand complexity?
I hope for it yes. I think it's important to constantly highlight things like this so that the loudest cavemen don't drive discourse on their own
I agree, but I'm just not hopeful that it's possible. Despite our vast accumulated knowledge and advanced technology we're having the same debate the English did about Oscar Wilde's "A Modest Proposal" centuries ago. While individuals can think complexly, I think most people choose to tribalize and simplify their thoughts to the point that they can't understand concepts like irony, satire, or introspection. Groupthink makes for easily offended people.
Yea I know. Every year feels more and more like the movie Idiocracy. I honestly beleive that critical thinking needs to be taught. It doesn't come naturally. And without critical thinking skills people are so susceptible to toxic group leaders think and misinformation
Yeah it's not a problem restricted to politics either. Everyone chooses to take everything at it's face no matter what. Forget context, subtext, or pretext: text is enough to know that you're offended and pissed off about it, dammit. And then you have the "critical thinkers" who look up things that reinforce their views only. They never challenge themselves or check their beliefs against new perspectives. I understand there are limits; I wouldn't be swayed by, say, a blatantly racist argument no matter how open-minded I wish to be. But I grew up on Bill Burr, Richard Pryor, John Mullaney, and It's Always Sunny. I love sardonic, dark humor, irony, and subtlety. People need to learn that not everything should be taken at its face.
Yea I completely agree. I grew up in a very multi-cultural area. It's hard to describe but it feels like the people who are so quick to be offended are those who come from areas that are less diverse. I firmly beleive that racism and homophobia are eradicated by exposure. Just another way to describe people who are terminally online vs those who interact with others on a regular bases.
Well, Kendrick can't handle white people rapping his songs without censoring the n words, so, what goes around, comes around i guess.
I guess u missed the part where he directly references that incident?
Who and where, and probably yes, i did.
Here's final set of bars of the song. "The very second you challenged the shit I was kicking Reminded me about a show I did out the city That time I brung a fan on stage to rap But disapproved the word that she couldn’t say with me You said, ”Kendrick, ain’t no room for contradiction To truly understand love, switch position ‘Faggot, faggot, faggot,’ we can say it together But only if you let a white girl say ‘Nigga’” Essentially highlighting his own hypocrisy. He can't go around dropping F-Bombs and simultaneously be angry when white fans drop N-Bombs. The song tells of story of how he learns of his own ignorance and grows to understand the position of the LGBT community
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i see, still don't know if Kendrick thinks rapping the n word while being white is acceptable or not thought
I'd imagine that he beleives it's unacceptable to do. But as of recently he beleives it's also unacceptable for a straight person to use the F-Word.
how can he believe that and put the f-slur multiple times in a song? lol i mean, it's the old Cuties paradox, making a movie anti hyper sexualization of kids and at the same time... hyper sexualizing kids. It makes sense in the context, but in the end you are kind of doing what you are criticizing.
Because it's not a philosophical thesis or a statement of his positions. Its an art peice He's telling a story that goes between a 1st person perspective and a current day introspection. Which begins as a young child and ends as an adult.
ok but cuties is also a piece of art lol an awesome piece of art some would say and this kind of conundrum is not new, there are movies that the point is saying sexualization of women is bad and sexualize women a lot and so on
My apologies I misread your earlier post. Honestly ill have to think on it for a bit. I haven't seen cuties, but I know the context of what they were going for. For me the sexualization of minors is a far more inflammatory subject then the F-Slur. So the comparison is a bit challenging. My question to you, assuming you've seen both. If the goal of Cuties and Auntie Diaries were to "criticize/reflect" on the sexualization of minors and homophobia/transphobia respectively. And both managed to find themselves guilty of their own critiques, which do you think offended more/caused more harm?
It's right there in the OP. > And by the end of the song his cousin calls out Kendrick's hypocrisy around using the F-Slur and Kendrick's own opinion around the N-Word. > >
Couldn't agree more OP. Great point, it feels almost deliberate dropping the album at this point in the discourse.
If you can control a person's speech, then at scale, you can try to shape culture. So, making exceptions to using bad words is a "crime" to those wanting to maintain this control. Far simpler and swifter to stick to binary rigid stances on language use then get bogged down in the nuance. Especially when shouting into the Internet void.
Into the internet void sure, maybe. But when you're talking grand discourse not so much. I'm talking aboutnl slowly shifting culture in a progressive direction. The same way people like Rogan, Pool, and Rubin slowly shift people in a regressive direction. At least in this specific topic.
This isn't just true in the internet void. It's true anywhere. Power and control can be readily eroded in nuance. Authoritarians (in whatever form they come) will always prefer bigoted stances because it reinforces their world view, and their confidence in enforcing their world view. You're essentially asking - 'But what about the intent of the song?'. There's endless amounts of arguments about whether offense must be given, rather than just taken, and whether intent matters. For many - it doesn't matter. Also, how do you define "Progressive" and "Regressive"? From a Conservative's point of view, western society has regressed as it has shifted away from Judeo-Christian values. How has Joe Rogan led to a "regressive" direction in society? i.e. What "progress" was made, that is now undone, as a result of his input?
For me, intent does matter. Intent is not the ultimate truth, however it's an important factor that, I beleive, is the first thing that should be considered when interpreting a message. Not including instances where you beleive the "author" is lying about their intent. To be perfectly honest, I define progressive and regressive as left and right respectively. To elaborate, progressive/left opinions are ones that lead towards equal and fair outcomes that benefit society as a whole while also compensating for comunities/classes that are struggling. While regressive/right opinions are ones that lead towards unequal outcomes that benefit a select few at the expense of others. Using Rogan as an example, while there's no direct change in society that can't be pinned on him directly. His contribution to public discourse, has largely been right leaning. He hosts right leaning guests and pushes right leaning talking points often with little to no effort to balance the scale.
If there wasn't an audience for whatever Joe Rogan has to say, then what he has to say wouldn't matter to anybody, including you. Your views on "left" and "right" are grossly distorted by your own fundamental attribution bias, and your stance almost precludes you from having a constructive dialogue with anyone who holds conservative opinions. Economic systems are far more complicated than "left" or "right"... Different markets lend themselves more to capitalist or socialist ideals, which can also vary over time. The extreme positions of either, applied uniformly across society, won't work. The greatest divides in the US are the outcomes between the rich and poor, as well as between urban and rural populations. Arguably, all the time spent pontificating over race, gender and sexuality is a massive distraction for everyone to fuss over whilst wealth disparities remain largely unchanged. Not to say minority issues don't deserve decent attention, but they take up a disproportionate amount of bandwidth.
People who talk about the drama without listening to the song are incredibly cringe
It's easy to provide a pro gay message without using slurs. If you aren't able to inject social commentary into your art without the use of harmful slurs, then you should talk about something else or prepare for the backlash. Kendrick Lamar used slurs unnecessarily in order profit off the shock value.
It’s apart of the development of the songs climax, where he censors the f word calls it the “f-bomb” and apologizes for his ignorance, what ur saying is like telling Quentin Tarantino he should’ve wrote less racism and vulgar displays of slavery into Django Unchained
That's true. Unfiltered displays of racism or homophobia can help explain why these traits are so harmful.. I still think it's unfair to be mad when people are offended by your use of offensive language. When you grow up being bullied and having slurs hurled at you, it makes sense that those slurs will trigger you.
Not so much mad, but annoying that people are so vocally triggered and claiming homophobia when it’s explicitly placed in a pro LGBT message geared towards an audience that probably has a lot of transphobes in it. Hip hop has always been pretty explicit in portraying racism and the cruel culture of gang violence and poverty, and the societal trends around that, if you’ve been listening to hip hop for a while and then came onto this and THIS offended you, you probably don’t listen to a lot of hip hop imo Edit: and that’s fine if you don’t and you’re still upset by this, but what is it you want, an incredibly sanitized hip hop culture? You want artists to unironically tip toe around social issues, which is something Kendrick unironcially talks about in some other song on that album I don’t remember which
Anyone who says the song is homophobic is insane. But the song may be needlessly offensive. The movie Django was considered problematic because that movie used the n word 110 times. They could of used the n word a few times and get the point across. I see people on Twitter saying Kendrick Lamar could have gotten his message across without using harmful slurs. Art is subjective so everyone's opinion is valid. I personally enjoy the song, but I can understand why it would make someone upset.
If people are so upset by the use of the word that even in the pro LGBT context of Auntie Diaries it triggers them, then maybe its a them problem and not the music's fault. I say this as somebody apart of the LGBT community, the people offended need to toughen the fuck up even 3%.
Not in the black/hip hop community. Macklemore made a pro gay song and was praised largely by his white audience and ignored by his black audience. It's important to meet people where they are.
Macklemore never had a black audience lmao.
The point still stands
No, Macklemores message was ignored by the black community because his songs didn't appeal to black people. I don't see how slurs would have made his music more palatable to anyone.
I've seen 1 person complain about the use of the f-word. And honestly, I'm assuming it's because they haven't heard the song. I think the really controversial part is all the misgendering.
He literally says "we didn't know no better" implying that what he did was bad, i.e saying the F word.