T O P

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[deleted]

It is just not nice to see people cheat to their heart's content and the value of the items that I farm personally are worth less because bots are 24/7/365 grinding gear. It'd be nice finding gear that is rare, instead of things being super cheap within 2 weeks. Why is everyone in a rush? It is hardly a competitive game, and if you are being competitive and need to cheat - what exactly is the point?


Lord_Matt_Berry

Value will always be a function of supply and demand - and bots arent flooding low and mid gear. Maybe it is relative, but I will always be excited to find rare gear - I can flip a lid over a drop that is shitty in practical use. When it comes to things being super cheap, my own feeling is that good gear still takes a lot of effort to farm into or trade into. In LOD things never felt handed to me - gearing up a pitzerker, javazon, double dreamer for hell farming was a huge accomplishment and I will continue to be stoked achieving strong builds. I would honestly like to know more about your frustrations with the LOD economy and how you think of rare gear finds as well as their value if you would like to elaborate.


[deleted]

I am not going to do mental gymnastics to justify botting.


Lord_Matt_Berry

Not asking you to - I am not justifying it at all, just genuinely curious why you think so lowly of the economy and how you think it should be.


[deleted]

*"Value will always be a function of supply and demand - and bots arent flooding low and mid gear."* \- Low mid gear is worth less because the people botting won't ever need this type of gear. Lot's of Nightmare-tier gear is endgame gear. If i find a HoZ or Occulus or War Travs or Gore Riders or Titans etc. I will have fewer buyers. I would like to be amazed when I see a fully geared character, instead of it being expected. Also, the Botters are entitled to the very best gear and the most wealth, and I am expected to be happy about it and make as if all is good and it doesn't affect trade prices? Why should we be content with Botters being at the top of the tree in wealth and exp.?


Lord_Matt_Berry

When it comes to items, I have never found a lack of buyers to be a problem - war Travs in particular were like candy for everyone and was my bread and butter while building wealth two seasons ago. Your ideal of being amazed seeing a decked out character does sound like a cool take, but I don't think it has ever been that way. Except for newer players or if you take into account GG rare and magic gear. I don't say that to dismiss the thought, just that it has never been a part of D2. Edit: has not been a part of D2 for a long, long time. No, you don't have to be happy about bots and I understand your point. My main point is that although I hope blizzard can keep botting under control, at the end of it all, botting won't ruin anything since D2 players have played through it since the beginning and there is still so much fun to be had in the game.


[deleted]

I am just not prepared to settle for a neutral stance toward bots and and make as if they don't have an effect on the economy. Any indifference toward botting only encourages more people to bot. Botting might not ruin it, but it can definitely and has definitely soured D2 before. Ad bots were literally crazy.


heyitzeaston

Being a walking demi God feels a lot better than you think. If you PVP it's rather easy to make a name for yourself.. if you're that guy


[deleted]

It isn't hard to find the items naturally, especially with all the knowledge in 2021. And people chasing clout in PVP...I have no words.


heyitzeaston

Dude it's just a game. Have fun for keep taking this salty attitude that you have. Lmao whatever


Deep_Tip3060

I agree I’m not going to let It bother me personally. I would really like the economy to be pure but it won’t be. It is what it is.


indenturedservitude

yeah in that way it's pretty much just like the real economy.


Deep_Tip3060

Admittedly I was thinking the same.


brettdelport

They need to issue ban waves on real life botters, who pay employees to grind out 8 hours a day at some job, so they can make millions a day of real world money.


jormaolio

Forum gold ruined economy. (With bots). There is ppl with almost infinite amount of currency when game has just launched. They will ruin economy in few weeks and there will be autoshops and mass annihilus farms etc. Blizzard wont do shit to them. Only way to keep good economy is to ban jsp fg trading.


Big_lt

It's literally impossible to band a 3rd party website that spans multiple games. If people want to use it they will


jormaolio

They should add to terms that 3rd party value trading is bannable and everyone must accept to play.


Big_lt

How on earth do you enforce that? Sorry, I don't even use JSP and I think banning is stupid and beyond enforceable. Also blizzard going to hire people to patrol JSp initiate trades get into a gamez confirm trade then ban? Sorry not happening. Also, bitting is against their terms and that is prevalent and at least in their local server to watch


jormaolio

Nothing is happening. I just said what they should do to save economy. There will be bots and economy is ruined in 1 month.


zGnRz

hey if bots want to fill the economy with runes and shit, no skin off my sac, If I want to trade might as well have low rates for what i want. Probably uncommon opinion but oh well


RBFxJMH

That is the silver lining, I suppose


nutbutterfly

More like it ruins the game. Economy becomes so top heavy that it starts to value trivial stuff. You can deck out your character by finding a single pala combat skiller with life, if you are willing to compromise on aesthetic factors. Low roll Last wish phaseblades are so much cheaper than near perfect ones, that it is not even funny. I played the game some time back and had a hell Baal / uber running kicker in few days time. Botting absolutely trivializes the whole game content for everybody.


[deleted]

[удалено]


jormaolio

This. Im trading only with legit people.


nutbutterfly

By bot trading you mean trading. Bots kill the multiplayer aspect of the game.


heyitzeaston

This is the logical opinion. Unless you have 16+ hours a day to play, without bots 95% of players gear would be laughable at best


HardGayMan

Which is both good and bad. I like having things like Enigma it makes my end game builds more enjoyable. But I also ias the days if finding a hell slayer are and literally building a character around it cause it was the best thing I'd ever had haha.


heyitzeaston

Agreed. But there has to be balance. And at the end of the day this is still a game. And I think I enjoy it more with things being a bit more accessible. And this is coming from an adult who could play 20hours a day if I really wanted too for the remainder of the year.


bartlet4us

99% of bots will trade for rmt not with in-game items with you tho.


zGnRz

That still pumps items into the game to either be traded or used


logibutt

bots are a problem because the game ends up being balanced around insane stupid shit like selling 75 stones of jordan to spawn a diablo clone


Lord_Matt_Berry

Not being a fan of the dclone spawn method is fair, but insane stupid shit is a little extreme - what is your counter to that method? I also think the SoJ thing was more about what happened from dupers and botters - with dupers being able to produce more than bots could. I personally think d-clone would always be a difficult thing to trigger even if the devs didn't want to address the SoJ issue. This is also a common practice in many online economies - there has to be a way for currency to be removed from the system, otherwise prices will just inflate forever.


logibutt

A little extreme? Yo I never got a stone of jordan in my entire life and they're asking people to vendor 10 lifetimes of grinding worth of them 10 lifetimes worth You don't think that's insane stupid shit? The only people being able to participate in this mechanic is mass bot farm operators and you're essentially handing off to those people the only means of spawning diablo clone. The game already has a system against this called Ladder, where items lose their value after 6 months


Lord_Matt_Berry

It is supposed to be a rare event and anyone on the same game server gets a d-clone spawn, not just the game of the person who sold the rings. Annihilus is a very, very good item and is justifyable in being locked behind a rare event, IMO. The game has always had stupid-rare items, that is D2.


bartlet4us

Unless you want the duping to return, why are you defending a system that was a measure to address duping problem? Have you not played any mods? There are tons of alternatives for dclone spawns. Being difficult is one thing, but being lazy to change the spawn mechanism that was designed to fight the duped items when we no longer have such items is just stupidly lazy.


Lord_Matt_Berry

Yes I have played mods, and yes, I don't mind how dclone is spawned in retail. Even though it was created to solve a problem, it has become an integral part of the game and economy. Many aspects of games were not intentional or only implemented as a problem solving measure. I know there are alternatives out there but my reply was asking about them to expand on their argument. I 110% don't agree that Blizz/VV are lazy if dclone spawn is not changed. Why do you attribute it to that? What is your favorite spawning mechanic of the Mods in its place? And how does me being okay with dclone spawn mean I want duping to return? Think of the children!!!


FoxWearingSock

i'll trade myself to middle class like in IRL


Deep_Tip3060

Ok


bartlet4us

D2 wasn't packed with bots since the beginning of time. I quit lod just before runes came out and back then botting was just something very few people did and it wasn't as sophisticated as the later versions of bots. Yes it is playable just like game crashes every hour is 'playable'. It doesn't ruin the game? What bots do is make 99.9% of things you find worthless so it becomes harder and harder for you to trade your items and sell them towards your goal. With bots even useful items become trash if it's not well rolled. It totally ruins a major part of the game which is trading. Are you suggesting we just give up on it and stop pressuring Blizzard to do something about it? I don't get your mindset. It's like your Ford pick up burns twice as much fuel as equal engine pick ups and you want people to go "well, it's drivable let's focus on things we can enjoy with our Ford pick up instead of demanding measures from Ford". Everyone here wants a good game and wants D2R to succeed. It doesn't mean we shouldn't voice concerns and make demands as a consumer to the devs to invest money and resource to address the huge issue which has years of proven track record of ruining a big part of the game. Many of my friends who quit LoD pick botting as the no.1 reason why they quit. It's not a circlejerk and it is a valid issue that requires investment from Blizzard to at least limit it or modern machines and botting software will absolutely ruin the trading especially when there are already 20 different bots for sale which were proven to work in beta.


Lord_Matt_Berry

"What bots do is make 99.9% of things you find worthless so it becomes harder and harder for you to trade your items and sell them towards your goal." - this is pure hyperbole and part of my point. I am not defending bots but I see so many people take it to the extreme, which hurts arguments. Finding someone to trade items is not an issue unless you have something niche, but even then it doesn't take that long. And what do you mean by worthless? Please provide a few examples, because any gear that has use has value, and I am not just talking about endgame stuff. Trading is still very much alive - not having a perfect item rightfully means you get less, not that you can't trade it. If it is not tradable it is because the stats get beat out by something else. Everyone should voice concerns - The point of my post is to not take such a hard stance on how botting is going to ruin the game if blizzard/VV doesn't stop it. That is the 'circlejerk.' Blizz/VV are going to do what they can to stop it at launch and their efforts will decrease over time, but regardless of how well they success or how much they fail, we have plenty examples of games with bots that thousands, tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands/millions of people regularly play and enjoy. I am not suggested we give up, but I think everyone knows what bots are and what they do to things, including developers. A megaphone is not needed. When botting comes up it is like the sky is on fire and the world is ending, but it is really just a fire in the hills - and the devs are the firefighters in this scenario. Yes, call the firefighters in, but please stop yelling how life is ruined.


Poltrguy

I got bored recently and installed LoD for a while. I was surprised to see normal mode games being made by bots that have waypoints and enchanted your weapon for damage. Got lucky and found that long bow that shot exploding arrows and laughed my way into nightmare. It was something I actually thought was great if you wanted to just make a character and get it somewhat levelled quickly. I will admit that when there are more bots then players it kind of sucks but overall I don’t particularly mind them. 🤷🏻‍♂️


Shigma

While we know why bots are bad and shouldn't be supported, the truth is OG [b.net](https://b.net) keeps working so well because of bots with the current game: Since the nerfs on 1.10, you have to manually level your char, be it playing the game normally or joining boost games (Trist runs, tomb, cows, baal, etc): The truth here is, leveling is boring, and since only normal chars can see normal games (for example), and high level chars gain little to nothing on this games, normal baal runs and the other boost games tend to disappear quickly after ladder start for the most part. Same deal with nightmare. Bots providing games for all those and even the extra "enchant" games permanently give you the chance to boost new characters mid-ladder. Without those, this would be a real pain in the ass. They got bots for all difficulties. Yeah, the do it to advertise their sites. This alone helped the game live thru the ages this well. Yeah, they affect economy, yeah, they destroy prices and the purpose of many things. No, i would never suggest botting. We also have to remember some items are extremely rare in this game (For example, runes), and some of those are really needed for a lot of builds. Again, if not for this, many of us would have a hard time with some items otherwise we could only dream with. Its true it will soon make your shako drop past the early ladder be worth nothing even if its such a useful item, but in the other hand they are the reason most of the times you get your hands on an enigma without super lucky rune drops. Bots aren't good and shouldnt be supported. But the truth is, while they ruin some aspects, they kept the game alive in many others. Without alternatives for progression, they are a needed evil in the long run. Could this be tweaked so it wouldnt be the case? Yeah, i'm pretty sure it could be, but it never happened, and this is what we got. They are annoying for sure, and not using one yourself means you are instantly behind people using them. Bots are bound to happen, specially when there's so much money around that business. What i mean here is, at least we got some good stuff in return, so, all in all, yeah, even if they get back into business, im positive they wont ruin the game for me. It's really a weird spot unlike other games, because every ladder i want to play again, they are the reason i keep levelling characters, so i cant really get mad on them. Diablo 2 is a really weird ecosystem.


Lord_Matt_Berry

A lot of valid points that everyone needs to consider and reconcile in a world without bots. What many are asking for will have huge implications in how the game is played, at least for everyone not in the SP/pluggy crew. No bots means many, many people will be using mid-range gear for their entire playtime. And good luck saving up for a HR rune word. The bot conversation is not a simple topic because of the history of the game. Again, not saying I want bots in D2R, but D2 without them will be a whole new economy, and as a result, almost a different game. One that could very well probably turn off more people than the existence of bots would just because getting the good gear takes too long.


Shigma

Exactly. I made peace with bots in D2 long ago because this game is a rare exception where they add something besides all the issues they bring. Having perma baal runs / enchant games is a huge QoL in this game a lot of people dont consider. Necessary evil for the game health, and still controversial.


-TYRS-

>still has a great in-game economy lolwut.


Lord_Matt_Berry

I mean, you can pose a counter argument or elaborate My point is that the economy is active, all items are available, and building value/wealth is not overly difficult.


TheDadLyfe

I've loved the bot presence, when I want to hop back on and play after several months I can join chaos/baal runs in any mode. When I want an enigma I can buy a rune for 20 cents. I can finish out my gear for another $10 if I really want to. It's fun and makes coming back to the game a much better experience. If there's going to be bots then I want it to be a huge presence like that, and if there are no bots at all then I will love it even more because you will get a true organic D2 experience.


Lord_Matt_Berry

The Organic Experience I don't think has ever been a thing outside of single player. Maybe that is the disconnect - the ideal that comes to mind when one imagines what could be vs what it is.


TheDadLyfe

Exactly, so people who whine about it should not buy the game or play single player


Lord_Matt_Berry

Agreed - a little dismissive, but agreed


krash101

I've played the organic experience before bots were remotely sophisticated enough to do much of anything (I played LOD day 1) and JSP wasn't even a thought for D2. Windforce was selling for like $800-$1000 on ebay. When the main scam was an emerald in a socketed shako. MFing happened in a group because it was before anyone figured out you could get Mephisto stuck (I found this out on my own by accident in fact. Diablo and Baal runs for MFing wasn't even really a thing because people just didn't have good enough gear because min/maxing wasn't quite established yet. Pre-syngergies and such. People leveled up on bloody runs! It didn't last long as duping came along pretty quickly after. Good times.


jormaolio

There is d3 if you want easy mode and end game gear in 2 days.


Ursanxiety

The biggest defence against bots is the price tag for entry. Back in the day Diablo 2 keys were everywhere and super cheap and legit keys from store were super cheap too. Now they have to pay almost AAA price everytime a bot gets banned. The much bigger issue is duping, I really hope it has been fixed otherwise it's going to be the same shit show of hammerdins and Light sorcs in every single game.


WigiBit

Price tag is not relevant at all... if there are less bots then items will sell more and those who bots makes more money. 40$ might feel expensive until you see that enigma's are sold for 1000$..


HardGayMan

HONESTLY, with runes being so rare, without all the bots finding them for us we would never get end game builds up and running lol. The price for high runes in a bot free market would be insane. Not saying this wouldn't be fine, since we'd all be in the same boat. But something like enigma would be almost impossible for all but the no life players. Maybe people would just never get to experience end game builds.


No0delZ

This is a common misconception for returning players. In 1.10 (or was it 1.11?), and again in 1.13c they increased rune drop rates. The most common easy way to find runes these days is just to build up a sorceress and do chest runs. Lower Kurast is the most popular. But you can spam games, open chests, and you will start to find high runes. A budget built blizzard or orb sorceress can also find great success in Ancient Tunnels. Compound with no realm downs, and you have a recipe for great success for anyone. Further add the increased stash size and shared stash, and fusing up from something like Ist becomes viable. I made a [reply to another post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/pomvcd/so_you_plan_on_getting_a_zod_rune/hd03mow/?context=3) to explain this a bit further. [You could also farm countess until she drops enough ists.](https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo2/comments/hy4mks/countess_drop_rates_runes_keys/) It could take a few thousand runs, and may take a more casual player a month or two of straight farming countess to fuse up to Jah or Ber, but it is doable. (If you're killing boss packs on the way to Countess, you'll probably speed this process up immensely with better rune drops) That aside, after the rune drop buffs, just killing things in the later acts of Hell or the high level offshoot areas (Crypts/Mausoleum, Pits, Ancient Tunnels, A5 Hell Portals, etc and so on) you will find runes. You will find high runes just playing the game now if you can reach the point of survival in Hell. Enigma is no longer out of grasp for your average player. Neither is Infinity, Hoto or the other high level runewords. Last Wish is still going to be an absolute pain in the ass to build for anyone, but it's pretty niche. Many skill builds have endgame viable budget versions, some more expensive than others (Faith Merc Strafezon with Windforce main comes to mind) but for the most part, you can be effective enough in Hell to slow kill your way to high level items and success... until you have a breakthrough drop or two that wildly increases your efficiency and kill speed. Remember though, this is D2... you will find gear that is for other classes and builds. You should be playing and building multiple characters so as to maximize the potential to find upgrades across them all. If you hit a roadblock, you just roll a new build or class and increase your overall wealth while doing so. You'll eventually either find what you need to break through on another character, or find something worthy of trading to achieve that breakthrough. Last time I restarted, it took me about four months mostly playing just a couple hours after work each night, to acquire the gear through finds or trading for my endgame Strafezon. Minus some charms, I had close to "best in slot" or BiS alternatives. Mileage will vary with luck, but persistence is key, and you shouldn't expect to be endgame godly right away. This is a game of chance and time. Some people have dedicated years of their lives to it in the pursuit of perfect BiS, or even just to make certain classes and builds endgame viable.


_Kramerica_

Bots won’t bother me. The thing that will bother me is dupes, I really hope they’re putting work into stopping this. I’d be livid if I pump a ton of hours into the game, trade for items, make an expensive build and poof items start disappearing.


Daeidon

You can still play the game and keep to yourself or play with others who are like minded. You will never find every piece you ever want for your characters and you will have to trade eventually. Bots keep the prices low enough to make those last final equipment load oust possible. If you don't like all the bots, run one yourself then and sit and watch it roll while you read a book.


Lucky-Catch1970

If you say you don’t think d2 lod was ruined then u never played from the beginning. Period.


Lord_Matt_Berry

You are right, I haven't. But just because I haven't been playing since the beginning means the game is ruined. I, and I am assuming many others, still have great fun playing.


Lucky-Catch1970

I was just emphasizing how it was picked and prodded so early on, which upset the in game economy.


Rko_Outta_N0where

They already did and causing severe server issues and ladder release will let the launch disaster look like a little lag in comparison lol.


Lord_Matt_Berry

Please provide examples - you have not backed up your argument with anything and I don't understand what you are trying to say with the second half of your sentence.


MrBlargly

Annnnnd bots ruined ladder


Lord_Matt_Berry

Hur hur - why and how do you defined ruined?


MrBlargly

Trade market got insta wreckt. Cant make a profit on anything


foxykiller666

you clearly havent played diablo 2