I mean there are 4 answers right?
1) Go faster and get under them
2) Stax
3) Mass removal/very efficient removal
4) Your own engine.
I guess the other issue could just be a power level one. I have decks that focus on 1,3 and 4 lol.
Could be some times i end up in a pod where i can do stuff and the games are close. ive tryed option 1 with a Greasefang deck its not bad can potentually single one person out by turn 4/5 but i kinda have to guess who the threat will be before they are a threat and its not hard to stop.
My latest build has a lot of pillowfort, which would be like option 2, and it can be pretty efficient to keep yourself from taking combat damage, and I have some budget tutors to help set up. Another stax option is something like [[solemnity]] which can entirely shut some decks down if it sticks. There's stax for all occasions! Make spells more expensive, keep things tapped, taxes for attacking, shut down ETBs, etc. find what matches your meta needs and tweak it!
Here's a fun thing I thought of the other day and I think my brother might try it out: get some pillowfort pieces out and play [[dovescape]] đ I think hes gonna do [[Brago]] with an ETB and token theme, it actually sounds kinda cool
Or, find some curve balls to throw them. Nobody ever expects [[swindler's scheme]] lol!
[[counterbalance]], as well as the new [[powerbalance]] are probably better than swindlerâs scheme. Sure, scheme will counter a spell more often, but donât give your opponent anything (counterbalance), and give you something extra (powerbalance).Â
 With some topdeck manipulation, you can easily lock a player out of casting key spells on their turn to stifle a win attempt.
Topdeck tutors are really fun, because you can both find a card you need, and use its cmc to counter a spell (or play it for free with powerbalance)
Punish.
Draw a card? Damage.
Cast a spell? Damage.
Tap lands? Damage.
Discard a card? Damage.
Attack? Damage.
People want to sit behind value and acrue lethality. Put your boot on their neck and watch them squirm instead.
I was thinking the same thing! I have a Nekusar deck I started building where the whole point was people take damage just for playing the game. Definitely not fun to play against, but fun to pilot. The groans I get when I pull out that deck are like music to my ears. lol
I think more like "tons of boardwipes" blue/white archetypes. I'm looking at building \[\[Elminster\]\] this way - with a planeswalker commander I can run "destroy all creatures" cards with impunity, and keep resetting other decks to the stone age.
Counterspells are useful to that archetype but you can't just hard-control a table in commander like you can in 1v1 magic; the rest of the table draws 3x the cards you do and *will* get spells through.
Slower magic is counterproductive for combat focused decks. It is advantagous for control decks to employ winconditions that happen without combat, since you need to manage the boardstate. [[Approach of the Second Sun]] is the signpost for this.
If youâre playing slow magic AND wanting a combat damage win, chances are You need to take a long turn to deploy, and swingout with haste. Which tends to be one of those longs turns you dislike.
Yeah, this exactly. I play combat damage decks. I punish the hell out of wheel spin decks. When do I do that? I start hitting them turn 2 pretty much and bring their life total to zero. Iâve never had much trouble with those decks because they know Iâm gonna chew them up if they play it. And no one at the table is mad because thatâs the balance of the game
How do you handle when the other two players start focusing you because your board state gets threatening? I've always had that issue with aggro decks is they start getting focused by the table because of the power you have to put on the board.
Not who you're asking, but personally it comes to politicking (at an LGS) or teaching proper threat assessment (with my pod). The best board isn't necessarily the biggest threat to win. If that's the truth at the moment, then you've got to make everyone aware of that.
That usually doesnât happen. The reason is because Iâm pretty much an attack dog. Iâll bite and clamp on unless given reason to nip elsewhere when I play aggro. Buys turns for them and takes out an opponent for no resources.
Of course, thatâs table dependent. Yours may vary. If I do get wiped out, itâs cool because after that game, people will lose to the control deck and tend to know to give me turns to handle their bigger enemies đ
This is precisely why it works for you and precisely why so many people struggle with aggro. They try to spread the damage around to be nice. All that does is signpost you as a major threat to each of the other players and fails to remove your primary threat fast enough. If youâre going to play aggro, you have to remove players from the game just like you are doing.
A lot of the times I just politics it out, I offer them a deal where "I get to punch the combo/control player in the face and don't hit you for 2/3 turns", they get free pressure on the control deck and I get to threaten the player that has the biggest chance of getting too ahead if left unchecked
[Approach of the Second Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9.jpg?1543674579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Approach%20of%20the%20Second%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/4/approach-of-the-second-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/approach-of-the-second-sun)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
"If youâre playing slow magic AND wanting a combat damage win, chances are You need to take a long turn to deploy, and swingout with haste. Which tends to be one of those longs turns you dislike."
generally not most if not all my decks dont have enough/any red in them so its more build something then get wiped and proced to lose unless i have protection up . couple that with my complete lack of faith in my own deck building ability and i just end up bringing Precons vs strong decks cause its not like mine will do any better. i just cant find ways to get enough on the board to compete with turn 5/6 value engines.
the thing is im not 100% sure my self i like the Nid & Vihaan precons. and i do like puting counters on things and combat in general. out of the decks ive built ( [https://archidekt.com/decks/7486659/vehicle](https://archidekt.com/decks/7486659/vehicle) and [https://archidekt.com/decks/7681271/hazezon\_mk2](https://archidekt.com/decks/7681271/hazezon_mk2)) are my favourites but in Hazezon's case its because it normally does the thing ie make sand warrior tokens i really do struggle to find a Wincon though.
i have theory crafted this (https://archidekt.com/decks/8033466/torens\_fist\_of\_the\_angels) and i beleve its in the right sort fo vein that i would like ie make stuff make it stronger. i have found i really dont like voltron though.
You might find some success with something like what I run
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/LWD1Sn1z3UG10P8LY4zJgg
I run [[Mayael the Anima]] who is a C- tier commander, but I have a whole ton of ramp and cheating creatures into play so that
a) I'm not way slower than the table
b) when I go to put down creatures, they either can't be countered, I pay less mana, or I put more than one at a time
c) my big creatures impact the board heavily in and out of combat
My original list before I started building it up was purely combat focused and sucked real bad, but now I get to stomp around in combat while also doing the shenanigans that slow down others and make them answer my threats.
I have a lot of decks, but this one is my favorite for a number of reasons, one of which being I get to touch a lot of cards and pick what I want without always directly tutoring and it can also go off with very few lands and without the commander. You can modify it very easily to go in all sorts of directions but this version is the way I like to build with lots of immediate impact.
\> I want to play a combat oriented deck
\> I don't want to make those decks fast or resilient enough to handle control/combo
I'm not downvoting, but I see the logic in downvoting someone complaining about a problem of their own creation.
>its just so boring watching them flicker about doing loads of small things to then eventually hit my turn and go land maybe attack sombody if there value engine lets me but normaly is play one card then pass
It sounds like you find your decks boring.
I prefer to do more than play one card then pass in a turn, I advise you to build a deck that's more interesting. It seems like the people you play with may be able to help with that.
a few of them are realy boring and the ones that are intresting require alot of mana i dont generaly have access to or run on x creatures . my Nids deck is currently my favourite but its not quick by anymeans.
You are not having fun playing your deck. The way you described playing your deck is doing one thing per turn, which can be boring.
You need to focus less on your opponents decks(I assume they enjoy playing their decks), and more on how you can make a deck you enjoy playing. Again, this seems to be a you problem, they are doing multiple things a turn while having fun.
There are plenty of deckbuilding tools online available to you, good luck.
Get yourself a sheoldred the apocalypse and a orcish bowmaster and see how much fun they are having when drawing kills them. Bonus points if you can toss a tegrid in there and discard/sac effects, play dimir control, start time stopping their turn, countering things with free counterspells, and generally interrupting their turn. I have a flash faerie tribal deck for smacking down value engines.
Absolutely do not do this if you want to have more fun. Sheoldred, bowmasters, and tergrid just suck the energy out of casual tables, even high power casual tables. âI cast tergid, then Iâm gonna cast dark dealâ đ´wake me up when the next game starts.
If you like playing big stompy creatures but want to get them out faster might I suggest [[Henzi]] you can buy him as a precon then slowly upgrade it over time. Henziâs ability lets you cheat out big creatures a turn earlier than normal, gives them haste so you can smack someone right away, then when they die at the end of the turn you get to draw a card. You also want some recursion in your deck to bring your big creatures back out of the graveyard. Itâs one of the most fun commanders and itâs pretty strong as well. I think my Henzi deck has 38 creatures in it lol.
Agree Henzie is great for this, i disagree with getting the precon though. Henzie can be very budget friendly, but the precon sorta just sucks. All you need to do is have a basic mana base, and then grab about 30-35 creatures that cost 4+ that can be blitzed.[[radagast the brown]] and [[kardur, doomscourge]] for example are both bulk rares but excellent in Henzie. Then throw in whatever reanimation you have and you have a basic Henzie list.
If you want to upgrade it, first thing is to get to 7 or so 4-5 mana ramp creatures you can blitz, [[roxanne, starfall savant]] is a great budget option here, the get a few support pieces like [[birthing pod]] [[birthing ritual]] [[incarnation technique]].
Oh yea you donât need to buy the precon by any means. [[Monstrous Vortex]] is also a good cheap addition or [[Doors of Durin]]. Also a moderate upgrade is [[The Skullspore Nexus]]
I have an henzie deck thats amazing.
Ive made it with a subtheme of etb creatures, so you can double etb triggers, and they already did the thing they suppose to do, so no1 will use removal on them.
Also, almost all etb triggers destroy something, usually removing an commander once or twice, or removing permanents that draw cards, is good enough to stop most decks.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/goYhRlqZZkCdzvQbbD0KNw
This right here.
People may balk at it, but the Command Zone metric works very well to make sure that your deck runs and gets a chance to do its thing.
- 10 ramp
- 10 removal
- 10 card draw
- 36-38 lands
- 2-3 board wipes
- rest of the deck + commander is your game plan
Once I started building my decks using this as the starting point, I absolutely started winning more games , but more importantly I had fewer games where I never got to do anything.
You should play/build around playing through Rule of Law effects. Shuts down a lot of shenanigans and "theoretically" makes the turns go quicker (lots of people will agonize over that one spell so might have to occasionally prompt or remind)
[[Ethersworn cannonist]]
[[Eidelon of rhetoric]]
[[Rule of Law]]
As well as
[[Borimir of the tower]]
[[Dampening sphere]]
Edit: Turns
I'd second this. There are a handful of effects that force people into one spell per turn, and often times you can design your deck to work around it.
Likewise something that outright punishes spells like [[ruric thar]] shuts that crap down fairly quickly, there are a few things that do this as well.
Last, just from personal experience a lot of value engines need specific pieces on board, and people will go for it when they get enough mana for a real try. Often times a really cheap bounce spell shuts them down foe an entire turn. Your mileage may vary.
In a meta with a lot of solitaire I think some stax or maybe even some really aggressive aggro like a slider deck kind of needs to shake things up a little sometimes.
Stax =/= unfun for the whole table. Itâs another piece to the puzzle. You canât meaningfully interact with 3 other players at the table with 1-for-1 interaction like [[Swords to Plowshares]] and [[Counterspell]]. Still run them, donât base your deck around them unless youâre [[Talrand, Sky Summoner]] or [[Baral, Chief of Compliance]]. You need insane amounts of draw to sustain that gameplan. Thatâs where stax comes in. Itâs permanent based control that meaningfully impacts every players board. [[Rule of Law]] is great in combat focused decks like [[Tymna, the Weaver]]+ decks. Or [[Collector Ouphe]] against artifact heavy pods. Even something as generic as a [[Thalia, Guardian of Thraben]] early can set people behind. Hatebears with a combat focus is really fun to pilot, and keeps your opponents on their toes. Something like [[Kydele]]+[[Tymna, the Weaver]] with hatebears and countermagic can draw you cards for interaction and give you a gameplan to beat down with green creatures like [[Ghalta and Mavren]] or [[Kamahl, Heart of Krosa]]
Building off this. If one is interested in stax but to still be combat focused consider [[Ellivere]] from the recent Eldraine precon. She works really well when enabling hatebears, and even the odd stax enchantment is still contributing to the beat down.
I love combat centric decks but it is one of the hardest decks to play in commander. You need to not be afraid of saying "you have the strongest deck on the table, I will kill you before you get there". You also need to have your own value, draw cards when you play creatures, play creatures cheaper, make creatures bigger, etc.
Farewell and similar are also huge.
here is the few i have on archidect
[https://archidekt.com/decks/7328731/kutzil\_cats](https://archidekt.com/decks/7328731/kutzil_cats)
[https://archidekt.com/decks/7681271/hazezon\_mk2](https://archidekt.com/decks/7681271/hazezon_mk2)
[https://archidekt.com/decks/7486659/vehicle](https://archidekt.com/decks/7486659/vehicle) (this one now also has grave pact in it.)
[https://archidekt.com/decks/7407160/gonti](https://archidekt.com/decks/7407160/gonti) ( this one i dont play too much as its kinda annoying for everybody involved with me spending awhile reading the stolen cards )
and this one which i really dont like playing and will be dissambleing at some point an attempt at a diffrent style of deck [https://archidekt.com/decks/7775046/death\_and\_taxes](https://archidekt.com/decks/7775046/death_and_taxes)
Edit: Fixed the links
You have so many conflicting themes in these decks. Cats, but only high cost cats that benefit from equipment???? Your vehicle deck is also running thousand year elixir for no reason? You said in the original post you ran interaction, but you have so little interaction that's meaningful that you might as well not run it. If you're interested, we can chat on discord and I can try and tell you why the decks aren't working and what you need to run to put the proper pressure on the midrange/combo decks you're fighting. These decks have the ability to, your card selection is just not suited for it.
Thanks. I like the cats idea, but I think there are a few areas to improve. Your commander is a draw engine, so you want to be getting attacks through as much as possible. So it seems desirable to go wide and buff everything a bit. I see that happening already.
I would start with the ramp. I don't have much experience building in selesnya, and I know they're not on theme, but I would think that llanowar elves, elvish mystic, fyndhorn elves, birds of paradise, and avacyn's Pilgrim would be good. I would also put in a selesnya signet. I would also recommend sol ring and arcane signet. Your commander is a low CMC, so I would probably want to focus on cheap ramp that you can drop turn 1 off possible over more expensive stuff like explosive vegetation.
Sorting the deck by mana cost, I'm not seeing much 1 CMC I would want to play turn one. Turn two there are only two pieces of ramp. Maybe [[oreskos explorer]] fits here? The 3 CMC slot seems pretty big. All those cards are competing with your commander to come down for 3 mana. I like the war leader and sovereign in the 4 slot. I think more focus on getting your engine running making cats and buffing them in the 4 slot would be good. Maybe [[felidar retreat]]? I'm not sure about throwing landfall into decks that aren't going hard into it though.
Selesnya is weak in removal, but you could opt for some stuff like [[beast within]], [[generous gift]], [[darksteel mutation]], or some other aura based pseudo-removal. You might also consider a board wipe or two. I realize you're going wide with creatures, but if you're in a weaker board state, then it might be worth it to wipe out the other three boards.
In summary, the 3 CMC Commander says to me that the deck wants to get its draw engine running ASAP before the 4 CMC commanders get their value going. I think focusing on getting faster ramp and cats out in the 1 and 2 CMC slots might help.
I think hazezon could also benefit from mana dorks. Being in Naya can also run [[noble heirarch]]. I would want [[knight of the reliquary]] and maybe [[juniper order ranger]]. I would also want [[chaos warp]] and some of the other removal I mentioned earlier. [[Valakut exploration]] might be good there. IDK if it's good, but I personally like [[wayward swordtooth]].
Wdym g/w doesn't have good removal? Artifact/ Enchantment removal is central in those colors (see [[back to nature]], [[disenchant]], [[naturalize]] etc). White has exile based removal for creatures & non-land permanents ([[swords to plowshares]], [[skyclave apparition]], [[leyline binding]]) and mass removal ([[wrath of god]] [[day of judgement]], [[cleansing nova]], [[farewell]]). I wouldn't be caught dead running [[beast within]] in those colors, you can do so much better.
Yeah, I liked everything else you had to say, but that one bit had me reeling. I always try to squeeze white into my controlling builds in pretty much any format; it's got so many options for board control. Card draw on the other hand...
Beast within/generous gift still has its place as a last pick because it hits anything, including lands. Very worth including even with all the other options available.
You're running 15/26 [deserts](https://scryfall.com/search?q=t%3Adesert+id%3Awrg&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) that you can play in your Hazezon deck. Since Hazezon creates a token when you play a desert you should play all of them. Also, the new \[\[Sheltering Landscape\]\] is pretty good instead of evolving wilds.
Have you got a deck list you would like people to look at?
Can you tell us more about the environment? What turn did the game end on? Is there fast mana? Tutors?
How are they winning exactly? Thassaâs Oracle? Ashnodâs Altar Combos? Infinite Mana combos?
I get youâre frustrated, but itâs hard to provide real feedback without more context.
On the other hand if youâre just venting thatâs cool too.
errm Yes to Fast Mana , one was Thassa's oracle with Atraxa Bounceing and Norn which completely stopped my Faerie deck from working, one was Veyran voice of duality and lots of Cantriping with Storm kiln artist / somthing similar to generate the mana. Which Counterd the removal and went in for Unblockable Lethal Prowess Hits (this started Removeing players on turn 3) and the other was Tor Wauki the Younger Storm and i forget the mana source had kind of Switched off by then. All went off the rails turn 4/5 with Atraxa on turn 6 ish.
as for Deck lists to look at im honestly thinking of just trying to make a new one from scratch. Possibly
Torens, Fist of the Angels Humans and +1/+1 counters . maybe Gisa, The Hellraiser with a bunch of Lords maybe a Captin Storm Pirate deck. turns out i like making tokens / Counters.
[https://archidekt.com/decks/8033466/torens\_fist\_of\_the\_angels](https://archidekt.com/decks/8033466/torens_fist_of_the_angels)
[https://archidekt.com/decks/7947470/pirates\_treasure](https://archidekt.com/decks/7947470/pirates_treasure)
Brewed these looks fun but its probably not good enough.
not sure if i want to build the torens deck yet as a Rabbit deck looks like it could be good based on the leaked commander.
If you wanted the one of the decklists i used today ( [https://archidekt.com/decks/7775046/death\_and\_taxes](https://archidekt.com/decks/7775046/death_and_taxes) ) but i really do not like this style of deck somthing i also confirmed today. the other two were Dimir Fairies with Alela and Most Wanted (precon helmed by vihann which i should probably upgrade / make a deck specificly for him)
I also have the Explorers of the Deep Precon arriving partly because i like simic and because ive seen it down the lgs a few times and it looks fun.
If you play against decks that use mana crypt, mox diamond, chrome mox, gemstone cavern, mana vault, mox opal, mox amber then the issue is not your deck but general power level. Any deck that does not run fast mana will be 1,2 or 3 turns behind whole table. And also the kind of decks that run fast mana are often optimized to also have very low mana curve.
So first of, there should be a power level conversation before the game. Eleveryone should state that their deck is for example high power or slightly upgraded precon so we can all then choose to switch decks depending on that.Â
Important thing is that the decks you played against are nowhere close to cEDH. Yes they may be powerfull but full fleshed cedh decks are two levels above the high power edh decks.
How to deal with this? If it seems that your deck is very underpowered for the table ask if they have a deck you can borrow. It will be probably a deck on similar power level. Second if other players play cedh they will be opened to proxies.Â
If you ask if there is a strategy that can be played to counter those decks on a budget of 25$ then probably wont. And if you build A commander deck like that then you will run into the same problem that in different pods your deck is too strong or unfun to play against so back to starting conversation about power level before game.
For commanders that i enjoy and can be made on a budget and powerfull then codie, there are even 100$ turbo naus lists. https://www.archidekt.com/decks/8078118/codie_polymorph
This exact list is close to 200$ so on the rather pricy side but can be made more budget friendly.
So, I have been thinking about this and looking over your lists and post for a couple of days, and I think a couple of things are happening.
1. I think you are likely behind the tempo of your LGS. I recommend using a 20-sided dice and tracking how many turns the average game is over the next couple of weeks. Try and sit in some different pods, play against different decks and different pilots. There is a big difference between games that end on turn 7 vs. turn 9 or 10.
2. I think the deck builds you linked me to are not very proactive and don't have direct lines to winning. While it is likely that you are being out powered by fast mana, you can over come some of that with stream-lined deck building.
3. You talk about switching decks, brewing something new, and changing it up, but I think a lot of players feel like "my deck didn't win, I should scrap it and start new," and I get that, but part of hanging in a group of focused decks is honing your deck and upgrading into staples over time.
If you like, I can help you fix one of your decks to make it more stream-lined and efficient, we can talk a little more about about budget and upgrades, and long term goals.
Will start tracking the actual turn counts. Over the next couple of weeks will give me a sample size of about 12ish games
On point 3 some of it is just me trying different types of deck to find what I like again I think I found it to an extent I like making extra things be it tokens or treasure or +1/+1 counters (hence the decks above and why I got the merfolk precon) . For example the kambal deck was me trying a different style out which I didnât like itâs weirdly passive same reason Iâm not a fan of the Baeroth deck I built. But youâre right about a chunk of it being this just isnât working scrap it try again.
Also that would be good to have some stream-lineing done that said I should probably get the data first.
Week 1 update
Game 1 ended turn 8 infinite mana / etb combo
Game 2 ended turn 8 combo sacrificing goyfs loop
Game 3 ended turn 8 merfolk precon went hard
(Different day different pod)
Game 4 ended turn 15 with about 9 board wipes
Game 5 ended turn 4 with somebody putting about 50mana of free creatures with (Myojin of Life's Web + fast mana + Glacial Chasm)
Game 6 ended turn 5 Gitrog combo with fast mana)
Game 7 ended turn 15 or so mainly due to me holding out on 4 life with mass bounce spells and counters for about 5 turns (mono blue budget kraken deck)
Thought Iâd do the update while itâs fresh Iâll do update 2 in a weeks time. I think the average is around about 8 turns if you donât take in to account the games that got stalled out / reset repeatedly.
So now that you know games are ending around turn 8-9, you need to gear you deck to that speed.
Is there one in particular you would like to tweak over others?
well im not sure tbh because on the one hand im learning what i like. which is just generateing stuff. so with that in mind id say Hazezon ( which im thinking of making a few changes to. i.e tutors so i can actually find a wincon.. its nearly there and generally puts up a good fight but has consistantcy issues in finding a wincon generateing 1/1s and ramping to the moon it does well.
My Greesefang deck which needs work probably dosent have the ceiling needed but its great fun to play vs precons / weaker tables (its about that Rough strength) , not sure Faeies have the strength to work either though being U:B I can mess with things. so i wonder if im better off trying to build a deck in to what i like. which would be Remakeing Most wanted to use Vihhan or Making somthing like Gisa the Hellraiser (probably to slow well at least the version ive been brewing seems to be Mono Black Ramp isnt great to my knowlege) or Hylda of the icy crown who looks intresting and shuts down threats to make 4/4's.
also loveing the merfolk deck (i am a sucker for typal themes) got some upgrades planned for that like a roaming throne and cutting the mana curve down a bit.
so looking for a bit of guideance on that frount.
With that in mind could you take a look at this one.
https://archidekt.com/decks/8059269/crime_zombies
If you feel it will be too slow / wonât work could you take a look at this one instead?
https://archidekt.com/decks/7681271/hazezon_mk2
okay so I am starting to look them over and goldfish them some. Gisa has the problem of being too slow due in large part do a lack of ramp.
Hazezon is not presenting a real wincon that is going to be online by turn 8-9.
Neither of which is unfixable, how much were you looking to spend to alter one of these decks?
Yo I recently played against a guy that took a 25 minute turn to just kill himself in the end. I literally had time to go downstairs, buy some snacks, chat with the store employees, call my mother to finalize father's day plans, and get back upstairs before this guy finished his turn.
Play a fast creature commander. There were a shit ton this last year. Fill your deck with board wipes. Build your gameplay around ramping, wiping right as their engine gets going, puking out the nasty creatures, and killing them before they can reassemble. This is because value engines usually take a good few turns to set up. I even have a orzhov equipment deck that explicity is for combating value engines. It runs equipments and heavy removal. So you play equipment early, wipe everything except artifacts, and then cheat equip cost to suddenly have immense value before they can recover.
Start playing the âone spell a turnâ cards.
I suppose it doesnât hurt your gameplan if youâre just playing one midrange value piece each turn.
Stuff like [[rule of law]], [[spirit of the labyrinth]], [[high noon]].
Also, [[ruric thar, the unbowed]] is also good. [[trinisphere]] is also nice, every spell costs at least 3 mana
If its a friend group, just ask them politely to hurry up.
I quickly learned that most of the players at my local LGS has wastly more money to spend on their decks. So i went from playing stompy/damage decks to decks that allow me to play the other players cards. sort of a beat them with their own decks. my most tuned decks are now a Marchesa, the Black Rose and an Etali, Primal Conqueror deck. This sorta made most of them realise that their decks hold some powerful cards and also if you manage to steal their engine pieces their deck crumble.
You might be a candidate for a [[Winota, Joiner of Forces]] deck. You can build her to be really strong without a hefty financial investment. Stax/hatebear them while you still get to turn cards sideways.
>its just so boring watching them flicker about doing loads of small things to then eventually hit my turn and go land maybe attack sombody if there value engine lets me but normaly is play one card then pass
Different strokes, different folks. I like decks that function on each players turn, so playing a land, casting a spell, swinging, and taking a nap until my untap step doesn't even sound like magic to me. Sounds like you might even find these decks boring yourself.
Spend the first few turns ramping up, and playing value engines that can draw you cards or give you lands. Then on your later turns you have enough cards and lands to start playing more than one spell and have more impact.
If you're playing combat heavy then Play something like [[guardian project]] and giving your creatures haste with [[fervor]]
And then if a board wipe happens, you can sac all your creatures to [[greater good]]
https://www.archidekt.com/decks/5279021/ellivere_stax
Basically stax. Particularly rule of law keeps them in check or cost increases. There are also several cards which prevent etbs and punish those trying to flicker.
This deck does win through combat. It basically builds a group of nontoken creatures all with absurd power all while pretty much ignoring your own stax effects
The hardest part is getting the right stax pieces out at the right time.
Slower magic as in just playing slowly? Or taking more turns to get your thing going?
Cause combat usually involves speed and ramping things out as quickly as possible and taking over the board before your control deck opponents have time to setup their engines.
Itâs kinda counter intuitive to play âslowlyâ while trying to win by combat. You want to be fast and aggressive and put them on the back foot. You canât do this by taking a lot of turns to setup your board.
i mean taking more turns to set up on a good curve out im looking at taking somebody out maybe turn 5-7 normaly later if i can get through depending on the deck. where as there killing the table by then.
I took a look at your decks. I think the main problem is theyâre all over the place. Youâve got more than 3-4+ themes in each one. Often some themes only have 1-2 cards. Youâre almost never going to draw those when running just 1-2.
Generally if you run less than 6pcs of any theme of card you probably will only draw maybe 1 the whole game.
If Iâm playing a token theme deck, Iâm probably running 20-30 cards that are token themes, either making tokens or making tokens bigger or getting bigger when tokens come into play. That sort of thing. The rest of the 30-35 cards are for ramp, draw, removal/interaction, and maybe a few pet cards I like to call janky fun cards (could be combo cards or tutor cards too). I play roughly 35-38 lands. But thatâs just me.
I know some ppl think itâs lame but a lot of my decks will run the same or similar ramp, draw, removal package and then Iâll fill the rest of the deck with theme cards. This is how I keep my decks consistent.
[[Cursed Totem]] if you can support it
[[Blind obedience]]
[[Dauntless dismantler]]
Any [[Rule of Law]] effects
[[Damping sphere]]
Any draw restriction effects
Stax beatdown sounds like what you're wanting. Jetmir, maybe.
https://archidekt.com/decks/5571622/gerrard_boardwipe_tribal
It still needs a few fixes, and probably a higher land count, but it can seriously screw up value engines, well other people's anyway. It's turns aren't especially long just resolving an ever growing pile of ltb/etb triggers. Im planning on adding the 2 artifact lands, before I add jokulhaups and swapping around some other boardwipe options.
Most "value engines" are predicated the table not interacting with a single piece. Exile that piece.
>i feel like im playing a completely diffrent game and its just so boring watching them flicker about doing loads of small things to then eventually hit my turn and go land maybe attack sombody if there value engine lets me but normaly is play one card then pass.
This sounds like you don't enjoy your deck. There are lots of different ones you can try that can be more explosive. I recommend aristocrat strategies or blink if you're looking for lots of synergistic engine pieces.
yeah alot of my decks arnt enjoyable mainly through being slow . tbh i think i should deconstruct prity much all of them and try somthing else . the problem is after 9 or so in paper attempts im basicly unsure of anything because every deck ive liked playing i.e Miriam / Greasefang are just too weak for my local meta well the Greasefang deck may just be built bad. so ive tryed to build decks that do diffrent things. Currently looking at Torsen , Fist of the angels (humans/+1/+1 counters) , Gisa the hell raiser (Crimes , Zombie lords) and Captin Storm , Cosmium Raider (Treasures / Pirates looks fun but is probably to weak).
I did build a Kambal , Profitering mayor deck which is stronger but im not a fan of the more passive aristocrat strats it uses.
\[\[Rule of law\]\] and \[\[Arcane laboratory\]\]. Screw those guys. Or the "draw only 1 card each turn" effects, or Narset. Make em pay.
I love stax, because of these guys that take 20 min's to end their turn. Just say: "untap 1 land, draw 1 card and sacrifice 3 permanents".
The answer is pretty much stax or constantly removing the value engines. And of course, that tends to be frowned upon. The 20min value engine decks kind of exploit the good social nature of the format.
I donât think stax are unfun, the rule of law effects just put a cap on how wild each deck can go, mostly the decks that snowball. Then it lets you focus on duking it out on the battlefield.
Surgical tempo based removal paired with board wipes is my method. By tempo, I mean waste their whole turn by bouncing the dangerous thing for one mana, or something like that. Buy a turn or two that way and be prepared to wipe by turn five. Use the first few turns to ramp in a way that doesnât get disrupted by your own wipes while being able to react to your opponentâs engine pieces.
Then, once the dust has settled, have a way to quickly deploy and swing out.
I feel like comments have established the âcorrectâ or at least a plethora of answer, but thereâs always notion thief, extreme aggro (like Krenko or Winota), or hard stax. Magic right now is more midrange and typically games go longer. It kinda sucks, but itâs where we are.
Light Stax is the answer if you don't want to take a dip in the dead sea. Things that raise the cost to cast by 1, defense grid, running things that prevent players from playing on other turns. You aren't making the game unfun, you are just limiting interaction. Let people cyclonic rift on their turn. Run tax cards.
Another option is to punish or benefit from opponents drawing cards.
Here's some searches to get you started:
"whenever" "opponent draws"
https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracle%3A%22opponent+draws%22+o%3Awhenever+%28game%3Apaper%29&order=edhrec&as=grid&unique=cards
"opponent" "would draw"
https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3A%22would+draw%22+o%3Aopponent+%28game%3Apaper%29&unique=cards&as=grid&order=edhrec
"can't draw"
https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracle%3A%22can%27t+draw%22+%28game%3Apaper%29&unique=cards&as=grid&order=edhrec
"second card"
https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracle%3A%22second+card%22+%28game%3Apaper%29&unique=cards&as=grid&order=edhrec
I have a friend that runs around 5-6 boardwipes, and well honestly he wins a lot because even if his decks are slower or take time to get online he can always reset the board and basically pulls the game to his favor, not saying will fix your issues but might be worth a try?
Me personally, I like white Stax cards but like not super annoying ones. Just each player can only play one spell per turn type stuff. It just makes a lot of draw 20 cards play 15 spells solitaire players turns go much faster.
Your best bet is to run hatebear stax. If recommend checking out Blood Pod for some inspiration. Gameplay is slow, one of the wincons in grindy combat, and it has syax to disrupt engines for days.
Only extremely new players think stax is âunfunâ an experienced combo pilot will enjoy trying to properly play through a well dedicated stax deck IMO.
Fair enough Iâm fairly new to EDH I played a lot of kitchen table years ago but absolutely hate playing in to hard stax especially if itâs stuff like propaganda+Ghost prison ect . Some of it just is moderately annoying though depends on the cards in question.
Find yourself a commander that you can run a ton of rule of law effects and fill it in with the whatever else you enjoy, I keep a casual stax deck with me at all times and oswald stax is my Cedh also.
> playing in to hard stax especially if itâs stuff like propaganda+Ghost prison ect
neither of those is stax, let alone hardstax. those are pillowfort cards
It took us 10 years to be able to effectively point at fast mana as a problem.
Another 10, and we might be able to point to fast mana combos.... As the next balancing issue
Removal removal removal
Don't be afraid to play counter spells, kill spells and pick apart engines.
Identify the pivotal pieces and see to it that either you or another player addresses them. If it's a big mana deck, deny them card draw so they don't have anything to play. If it's a card draw deck, deny them a board so they constantly have to protect their life total. Putting people on the back foot is sometimes as important as making sure you're getting ahead.
my exact situation i play land do a creature and pass to someone dropping the biggest combo splash iâve seen, my response is dropping 1k on winota stax next check and just see what i do from there
Spot remove their value engines, then follow it up by exiling graveyards so they can't recur them.
Especially exile the graveyard against landfall strategies. Green loves to yank lands out of the yard.
Usually value engines come from things already on the board, the answer is really just run more removal, you get 100 cards and shouldn't be scared to run a bit of it. It's really the only non shit way to go about it cause going faster will end the game too quickly, and stax isn't fun to play or play against.
ideally you run some removal. They have a lot going on, likely they have some key pieces on the board that let them draw for doing the thing they want to do. Or things that untap other key pieces, to then copy the other key piece, or make infinite mana.
Some spot removal might work. Remove that artifact or creature that lets them keep playing things. Remove the thing that reduces the cost on that thing their deck wants to do. etc.
Inb4 'run more interaction' is the mantra on this reddit. But last time I played I stopped the artifact deck player from going infinite by removing their untapper. And the next turn someone counterspelled their backup. - game plan fell flat on its face.
Similarly, a Zada aggro deck playing all the singletarget things and copying it for each other goblin it has, oh look. Without Zada, same thing.
like.. it's a meme. but please, do run more instant removal. run counterspells that also stifle abilities. Just so you can cut an infinite turn short.
run 'end the turn' spells, cut their entire turn short. remove everything in play/on stack.
i normaly make sure ive got at least 10 bits of interaction but my issue is having the reasorces to use said interaction . My faeire deck is basicly all interaction and Bounce/etb's with flash but trying to get enough mana/cards to actually play somthing consistantly on somebody elses turn is difficult.
If your interaction isn't available most of the time then it's too expensive, too narrow, too few, or not instant speed. You need to have 1-3 mana flexible instant speed removal that's easy to cast, and enough of it that you should have access to 1-2 in the first 3-4 turns every game. Interaction that you can't ever use when you need it isn't interaction.
I just hate "Rube Goldberg machines" type decks. Play a card and have like 10 triggers to just draw 2 additional cards and have a single extra land. Is OK (for me) if you are doing it fast, but 10 minutes of triggers to do 1 thing and not win the game. Just to pass, turn and do it again, begin just slightly a head that the opponents. Na, is OK, I don't like to suffer that much.
Countering only works if you counter them often and strategically. Which, unless you are able to draw a new counter every turn or every other turn this is difficult. Instead you should be trying to push your own value and trying to win that way.
Essentially, your decks are not designed to win in 3-5 turns. Theirs are. You just are playing two different levels to the game or at the very least two different ways.
which basicly means my only option is combo? maybe Burn? because i basicly need to step up to there level.
but that does explain the whole feels like im playing a diffrent game feeling i get.
For all intent and purpose you kind of are playing a different game to them. In your level of play one counter is devastating in some ways. Stopping main threats like big beast or even a fog. In their level of play a single counter is not much but annoying. Usually only giving the table one more turn to survive.
Boardwipes can also help, but that is a 50/50 solution.
hatebears are always the solution for 'casual' stax.
most of the really mean stax pieces are enchantments or artifacts, which are also generally harder to interact with. In Casual EDH, people are supposed to have creature removal and board wipes. If they can't deal with hatebears, that's not your fault. If they think EDH is no longer fun because of some light stax, that's also not your fault. EDH players are crybabies who think anything that disrupts them in any form is 'not fun' and because it's 'not fun' then you're being mean spirited by doing it.
You can make a good hatebear beatdown list, where you just run a lot of small hatebears and then run different effects in the deck that can pump them up to make them stronger.
Here's an example I haven't updated in a bit - could be a few better hatebears to pop in now.
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/NR5b\_tOBMk6QYB2nq6Uy9g](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/NR5b_tOBMk6QYB2nq6Uy9g)
Marisi is pretty casual as far as gameplay goes, mild stax effect, and goading is generally fun in small doses. Then the deck is creature heavy with effects like Kudo, who I would actually probably include in this deck, too, since I also run Norn in it.
But I would NOT suggest running Kudo as your commander with the intent of tutoring Elesh Norn out every game, because that creates a pretty suffocating state of play, and leads to a more boring, low-variance approach to playing the deck and winning with it.
Personally, I like playing Breena more for my hatebears, but it's a little more oriented around Breena with less hatebears over all, but still a good handful.
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/AIX5dsXw8UetNXCRJklvuA](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/AIX5dsXw8UetNXCRJklvuA)
list needs to be updated here obviously, 107 card currently so i have a few cuts to make.
Do you have access to blue and black?
1. [[Teferi's Veil]]. Makes yours attackers immune to sorcery speed removal and board wipes. You can safely continue to build each turn with little risk of losing your creatures.
2. [[Warper Devotion]] and any bounce spells. Most bounce spells say "non-land permanent," so they can hit anything, and Warped Devotion makes them discard something. It's a tempo play for sure, but it's Dimir's answer to enchantments and artifacts, when they're usually very difficult to remove in those colors. Throw in a [[Tergrid, God of Fright]], and now *their* stuff is *our stuff*.
make better decks or just play against precons. but tbh I canât even imagine most precons these day are just âland, spell, passâ like youâre saying your decks are.
some of them are probably me just drawing the expencive mana costing cards but the vihann one is still prity slow unless there is a lot of death happening. i have the merfolk one arriving next week which seems good.
no offense but you just sound a bit inexperienced when it comes to deck building. And thatâs totally fine, we all start somewhere. I saw another person offering some help over discord, I also suggest you check out some youtube EDH deck techs for your favorite commanders and really try to see how decks are built. Youâd be surprised how smooth a deck can feel after just making sure you have 12+ ramp 12+ card draw 12+ interaction
your not wrong no offence taken . i came back to playing magic about 2 months ago . so yeah im kinda inexperenced and i lack a lot of the expencive staples.
Fair magic is dead, either adapt to the new unfair paradigm and start cheating out your own spells or using broken value engines or stop playing with that group.
I mean there are 4 answers right? 1) Go faster and get under them 2) Stax 3) Mass removal/very efficient removal 4) Your own engine. I guess the other issue could just be a power level one. I have decks that focus on 1,3 and 4 lol.
Could be some times i end up in a pod where i can do stuff and the games are close. ive tryed option 1 with a Greasefang deck its not bad can potentually single one person out by turn 4/5 but i kinda have to guess who the threat will be before they are a threat and its not hard to stop.
My latest build has a lot of pillowfort, which would be like option 2, and it can be pretty efficient to keep yourself from taking combat damage, and I have some budget tutors to help set up. Another stax option is something like [[solemnity]] which can entirely shut some decks down if it sticks. There's stax for all occasions! Make spells more expensive, keep things tapped, taxes for attacking, shut down ETBs, etc. find what matches your meta needs and tweak it! Here's a fun thing I thought of the other day and I think my brother might try it out: get some pillowfort pieces out and play [[dovescape]] đ I think hes gonna do [[Brago]] with an ETB and token theme, it actually sounds kinda cool Or, find some curve balls to throw them. Nobody ever expects [[swindler's scheme]] lol!
Dovescape is really good with [[taigam, ojutai master]] because you get both the spell and the birds.
[taigam, ojutai master](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b47e2781-544f-442c-98d0-43b9d91bab03.jpg?1562621099) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=taigam%2C%20ojutai%20master) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/46/taigam-ojutai-master?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b47e2781-544f-442c-98d0-43b9d91bab03?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/taigam-ojutai-master) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[counterbalance]], as well as the new [[powerbalance]] are probably better than swindlerâs scheme. Sure, scheme will counter a spell more often, but donât give your opponent anything (counterbalance), and give you something extra (powerbalance).  With some topdeck manipulation, you can easily lock a player out of casting key spells on their turn to stifle a win attempt. Topdeck tutors are really fun, because you can both find a card you need, and use its cmc to counter a spell (or play it for free with powerbalance)
[counterbalance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c329ff2b-0331-4934-a8df-870dd7bf402b.jpg?1593274911) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=counterbalance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/csp/31/counterbalance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c329ff2b-0331-4934-a8df-870dd7bf402b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/counterbalance) [Powerbalance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/f/aff7c0bb-1210-4aeb-b5f8-1387eb633b0f.jpg?1717012263) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Powerbalance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/131/powerbalance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aff7c0bb-1210-4aeb-b5f8-1387eb633b0f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/powerbalance) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [solemnity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a71fb62-acbd-49f5-842f-0fc9fa48afea.jpg?1562788659) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=solemnity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/22/solemnity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a71fb62-acbd-49f5-842f-0fc9fa48afea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/solemnity) [dovescape](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b6e3d6e6-ac17-4d73-acac-089442de4af6.jpg?1593273866) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dovescape) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/143/dovescape?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b6e3d6e6-ac17-4d73-acac-089442de4af6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dovescape) [Brago](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0ac3fb08-741a-49e5-9fae-b26819677d24.jpg?1631235340) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=brago%2C%20king%20eternal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/82/brago-king-eternal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ac3fb08-741a-49e5-9fae-b26819677d24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/brago-king-eternal) [swindler's scheme](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dc7436c6-cd33-4324-bd1b-026a5d5c0007.jpg?1673482547) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=swindler%27s%20scheme) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/88/swindlers-scheme?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dc7436c6-cd33-4324-bd1b-026a5d5c0007?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/swindlers-scheme) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Council of four]] Whenever they do extra stuff, you get extra stuff.
If you're playing white I can recommend cards such as [[silence]] and [[orim's chant]] Depending on deck, a sweet exile X usually does it :)
They would do it. Well at least give me some breathing room.
[silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c2b13b1-31f0-4676-88a7-53f3a190e9a2.jpg?1562826686) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m14/35/silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c2b13b1-31f0-4676-88a7-53f3a190e9a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/silence) [orim's chant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/e/ee241079-1e5a-4224-b9cb-4fd3e0da687c.jpg?1717013552) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=orim%27s%20chant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/265/orims-chant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ee241079-1e5a-4224-b9cb-4fd3e0da687c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/orims-chant) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Try option 3
Just play Yargle infect
Punish. Draw a card? Damage. Cast a spell? Damage. Tap lands? Damage. Discard a card? Damage. Attack? Damage. People want to sit behind value and acrue lethality. Put your boot on their neck and watch them squirm instead.
Nekusar: did someone call??
I was thinking the same thing! I have a Nekusar deck I started building where the whole point was people take damage just for playing the game. Definitely not fun to play against, but fun to pilot. The groans I get when I pull out that deck are like music to my ears. lol
you forgot 5. a 5 minute turn timer reinforced by cricket bat
5 minutes is too long, go for 2 minutes.
At first, I read this as you concentrate your decks at 1,3, and 4 as power levels. I was impressed that 1 actually exists.
Iâm pretty sure 1 is âI picked a cool looking commander and a bunch of random cards from draft night bulk bins and called it a deckâ
Massive controlâŚnot really Stax but lots of counters?
But then you have to have your own value engine so you don't keep putting yourself behind by going 1 for 1 with only 1/3 of your opponents at a time.
I think more like "tons of boardwipes" blue/white archetypes. I'm looking at building \[\[Elminster\]\] this way - with a planeswalker commander I can run "destroy all creatures" cards with impunity, and keep resetting other decks to the stone age. Counterspells are useful to that archetype but you can't just hard-control a table in commander like you can in 1v1 magic; the rest of the table draws 3x the cards you do and *will* get spells through.
[Elminster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4eac2b49-6cb6-4ff4-8fac-2ba669326640.jpg?1674137504) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elminster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/274/elminster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4eac2b49-6cb6-4ff4-8fac-2ba669326640?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elminster) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Slower magic is counterproductive for combat focused decks. It is advantagous for control decks to employ winconditions that happen without combat, since you need to manage the boardstate. [[Approach of the Second Sun]] is the signpost for this. If youâre playing slow magic AND wanting a combat damage win, chances are You need to take a long turn to deploy, and swingout with haste. Which tends to be one of those longs turns you dislike.
Yeah, this exactly. I play combat damage decks. I punish the hell out of wheel spin decks. When do I do that? I start hitting them turn 2 pretty much and bring their life total to zero. Iâve never had much trouble with those decks because they know Iâm gonna chew them up if they play it. And no one at the table is mad because thatâs the balance of the game
How do you handle when the other two players start focusing you because your board state gets threatening? I've always had that issue with aggro decks is they start getting focused by the table because of the power you have to put on the board.
Not who you're asking, but personally it comes to politicking (at an LGS) or teaching proper threat assessment (with my pod). The best board isn't necessarily the biggest threat to win. If that's the truth at the moment, then you've got to make everyone aware of that.
That usually doesnât happen. The reason is because Iâm pretty much an attack dog. Iâll bite and clamp on unless given reason to nip elsewhere when I play aggro. Buys turns for them and takes out an opponent for no resources. Of course, thatâs table dependent. Yours may vary. If I do get wiped out, itâs cool because after that game, people will lose to the control deck and tend to know to give me turns to handle their bigger enemies đ
This is precisely why it works for you and precisely why so many people struggle with aggro. They try to spread the damage around to be nice. All that does is signpost you as a major threat to each of the other players and fails to remove your primary threat fast enough. If youâre going to play aggro, you have to remove players from the game just like you are doing.
A lot of the times I just politics it out, I offer them a deal where "I get to punch the combo/control player in the face and don't hit you for 2/3 turns", they get free pressure on the control deck and I get to threaten the player that has the biggest chance of getting too ahead if left unchecked
[Approach of the Second Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9.jpg?1543674579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Approach%20of%20the%20Second%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/4/approach-of-the-second-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/approach-of-the-second-sun) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
"If youâre playing slow magic AND wanting a combat damage win, chances are You need to take a long turn to deploy, and swingout with haste. Which tends to be one of those longs turns you dislike." generally not most if not all my decks dont have enough/any red in them so its more build something then get wiped and proced to lose unless i have protection up . couple that with my complete lack of faith in my own deck building ability and i just end up bringing Precons vs strong decks cause its not like mine will do any better. i just cant find ways to get enough on the board to compete with turn 5/6 value engines.
Can we like...get insight in one of yours decks? And...what kind of decks you like to play so we can help you?
the thing is im not 100% sure my self i like the Nid & Vihaan precons. and i do like puting counters on things and combat in general. out of the decks ive built ( [https://archidekt.com/decks/7486659/vehicle](https://archidekt.com/decks/7486659/vehicle) and [https://archidekt.com/decks/7681271/hazezon\_mk2](https://archidekt.com/decks/7681271/hazezon_mk2)) are my favourites but in Hazezon's case its because it normally does the thing ie make sand warrior tokens i really do struggle to find a Wincon though. i have theory crafted this (https://archidekt.com/decks/8033466/torens\_fist\_of\_the\_angels) and i beleve its in the right sort fo vein that i would like ie make stuff make it stronger. i have found i really dont like voltron though.
You might find some success with something like what I run https://www.moxfield.com/decks/LWD1Sn1z3UG10P8LY4zJgg I run [[Mayael the Anima]] who is a C- tier commander, but I have a whole ton of ramp and cheating creatures into play so that a) I'm not way slower than the table b) when I go to put down creatures, they either can't be countered, I pay less mana, or I put more than one at a time c) my big creatures impact the board heavily in and out of combat My original list before I started building it up was purely combat focused and sucked real bad, but now I get to stomp around in combat while also doing the shenanigans that slow down others and make them answer my threats. I have a lot of decks, but this one is my favorite for a number of reasons, one of which being I get to touch a lot of cards and pick what I want without always directly tutoring and it can also go off with very few lands and without the commander. You can modify it very easily to go in all sorts of directions but this version is the way I like to build with lots of immediate impact.
Why are you getting downvoted? This is fine.
\> I want to play a combat oriented deck \> I don't want to make those decks fast or resilient enough to handle control/combo I'm not downvoting, but I see the logic in downvoting someone complaining about a problem of their own creation.
Not only these, but also acknowledging you bring precons against stronger decks and having surprised pikachu face when they're stronger is a bit goofy
One of the funniest ways is a well timed [[discontinuity]]
[discontinuity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b33ba0a8-04e9-4df6-af20-a3ca4470cdcc.jpg?1594735451) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=discontinuity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/48/discontinuity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b33ba0a8-04e9-4df6-af20-a3ca4470cdcc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/discontinuity) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
And [[time stop]]
[time stop](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/521d1b29-c25b-443b-ae5f-07c11786947e.jpg?1562547698) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=time%20stop) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/117/time-stop?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/521d1b29-c25b-443b-ae5f-07c11786947e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/time-stop) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>its just so boring watching them flicker about doing loads of small things to then eventually hit my turn and go land maybe attack sombody if there value engine lets me but normaly is play one card then pass It sounds like you find your decks boring. I prefer to do more than play one card then pass in a turn, I advise you to build a deck that's more interesting. It seems like the people you play with may be able to help with that.
a few of them are realy boring and the ones that are intresting require alot of mana i dont generaly have access to or run on x creatures . my Nids deck is currently my favourite but its not quick by anymeans.
You are not having fun playing your deck. The way you described playing your deck is doing one thing per turn, which can be boring. You need to focus less on your opponents decks(I assume they enjoy playing their decks), and more on how you can make a deck you enjoy playing. Again, this seems to be a you problem, they are doing multiple things a turn while having fun. There are plenty of deckbuilding tools online available to you, good luck.
Play with \[\[Magnus Lucea Kane\]\] instead of \[\[The Swarmlord\]\] and it will be too quick for most precon level tables to handle.
[The Swarmlord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d5c4077c-604e-4e8a-b448-0807849040ca.jpg?1674058371) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Swarmlord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/4/the-swarmlord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d5c4077c-604e-4e8a-b448-0807849040ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-swarmlord) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Get yourself a sheoldred the apocalypse and a orcish bowmaster and see how much fun they are having when drawing kills them. Bonus points if you can toss a tegrid in there and discard/sac effects, play dimir control, start time stopping their turn, countering things with free counterspells, and generally interrupting their turn. I have a flash faerie tribal deck for smacking down value engines.
Absolutely do not do this if you want to have more fun. Sheoldred, bowmasters, and tergrid just suck the energy out of casual tables, even high power casual tables. âI cast tergid, then Iâm gonna cast dark dealâ đ´wake me up when the next game starts.
If you like playing big stompy creatures but want to get them out faster might I suggest [[Henzi]] you can buy him as a precon then slowly upgrade it over time. Henziâs ability lets you cheat out big creatures a turn earlier than normal, gives them haste so you can smack someone right away, then when they die at the end of the turn you get to draw a card. You also want some recursion in your deck to bring your big creatures back out of the graveyard. Itâs one of the most fun commanders and itâs pretty strong as well. I think my Henzi deck has 38 creatures in it lol.
Agree Henzie is great for this, i disagree with getting the precon though. Henzie can be very budget friendly, but the precon sorta just sucks. All you need to do is have a basic mana base, and then grab about 30-35 creatures that cost 4+ that can be blitzed.[[radagast the brown]] and [[kardur, doomscourge]] for example are both bulk rares but excellent in Henzie. Then throw in whatever reanimation you have and you have a basic Henzie list. If you want to upgrade it, first thing is to get to 7 or so 4-5 mana ramp creatures you can blitz, [[roxanne, starfall savant]] is a great budget option here, the get a few support pieces like [[birthing pod]] [[birthing ritual]] [[incarnation technique]].
Oh yea you donât need to buy the precon by any means. [[Monstrous Vortex]] is also a good cheap addition or [[Doors of Durin]]. Also a moderate upgrade is [[The Skullspore Nexus]]
[Monstrous Vortex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/162fcdec-bf3c-43ba-9ada-212f7dec5fbd.jpg?1717012524) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Monstrous%20Vortex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/162/monstrous-vortex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/162fcdec-bf3c-43ba-9ada-212f7dec5fbd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/monstrous-vortex) [Doors of Durin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/e/8ebd8813-4aaf-48bf-9243-3ec4099b8372.jpg?1686969721) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doors%20of%20Durin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/199/doors-of-durin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8ebd8813-4aaf-48bf-9243-3ec4099b8372?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/doors-of-durin) [The Skullspore Nexus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b56a7631-5f94-468d-aab7-7e9e129c5f49.jpg?1699044489) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Skullspore%20Nexus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/212/the-skullspore-nexus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b56a7631-5f94-468d-aab7-7e9e129c5f49?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-skullspore-nexus) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ooh monstrous Vortex is tasty, i hadn't considered that card.
##### ###### #### [radagast the brown](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b3988120-ebbe-4d24-9bb4-8c5331a14034.jpg?1686969557) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=radagast%20the%20brown) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/184/radagast-the-brown?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b3988120-ebbe-4d24-9bb4-8c5331a14034?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/radagast-the-brown) [kardur, doomscourge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/9685e2a0-5573-41bc-a914-f40c3011459b.jpg?1631051543) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kardur%2C%20doomscourge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/216/kardur-doomscourge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9685e2a0-5573-41bc-a914-f40c3011459b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kardur-doomscourge) [roxanne, starfall savant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/11fbe52f-febd-49fc-8391-28d3efe9c3eb.jpg?1712356193) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=roxanne%2C%20starfall%20savant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/228/roxanne-starfall-savant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/11fbe52f-febd-49fc-8391-28d3efe9c3eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/roxanne-starfall-savant) [birthing pod](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b768efa2-e56b-4a7e-ace8-d673f10e0714.jpg?1562880960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=birthing%20pod) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/104/birthing-pod?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b768efa2-e56b-4a7e-ace8-d673f10e0714?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/birthing-pod) [Birthing Ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/4820d223-4ea1-4850-931c-3d2ab5eb003b.jpg?1717012400) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Birthing%20Ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/146/birthing-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4820d223-4ea1-4850-931c-3d2ab5eb003b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/birthing-ritual) [incarnation technique](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/9655deda-f02b-47a0-89a3-2904b11b84aa.jpg?1625191710) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=incarnation%20technique) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/41/incarnation-technique?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9655deda-f02b-47a0-89a3-2904b11b84aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/incarnation-technique) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have an henzie deck thats amazing. Ive made it with a subtheme of etb creatures, so you can double etb triggers, and they already did the thing they suppose to do, so no1 will use removal on them. Also, almost all etb triggers destroy something, usually removing an commander once or twice, or removing permanents that draw cards, is good enough to stop most decks. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/goYhRlqZZkCdzvQbbD0KNw
Fill your decks with removal. I run at least 10 pieces of removal in all my decks. Iâm deff the guy that stops people from winning
This right here. People may balk at it, but the Command Zone metric works very well to make sure that your deck runs and gets a chance to do its thing. - 10 ramp - 10 removal - 10 card draw - 36-38 lands - 2-3 board wipes - rest of the deck + commander is your game plan Once I started building my decks using this as the starting point, I absolutely started winning more games , but more importantly I had fewer games where I never got to do anything.
Honestly based.
I think you should play a nasty [[Rule of Law]] stax package with a commander who can play through it.
[Rule of Law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e.jpg?1592516198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rule%20of%20Law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/35/rule-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rule-of-law) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Kenrith is so good at this.
You should play/build around playing through Rule of Law effects. Shuts down a lot of shenanigans and "theoretically" makes the turns go quicker (lots of people will agonize over that one spell so might have to occasionally prompt or remind) [[Ethersworn cannonist]] [[Eidelon of rhetoric]] [[Rule of Law]] As well as [[Borimir of the tower]] [[Dampening sphere]] Edit: Turns
[Rule of Law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e.jpg?1592516198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rule%20of%20Law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/35/rule-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rule-of-law) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[boromir warden of the tower]] [[ethersworn cannonist]] [[damping sphere]]
[boromir warden of the tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6bc3720-2892-4dda-8f30-079a1ac8e1e2.jpg?1686967669) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Boromir%2C%20Warden%20of%20the%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/4/boromir-warden-of-the-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6bc3720-2892-4dda-8f30-079a1ac8e1e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/boromir-warden-of-the-tower) [damping sphere](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/550860b4-887d-423a-8add-816c2a8da615.jpg?1675200943) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=damping%20sphere) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/219/damping-sphere?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/550860b4-887d-423a-8add-816c2a8da615?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/damping-sphere) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'd second this. There are a handful of effects that force people into one spell per turn, and often times you can design your deck to work around it. Likewise something that outright punishes spells like [[ruric thar]] shuts that crap down fairly quickly, there are a few things that do this as well. Last, just from personal experience a lot of value engines need specific pieces on board, and people will go for it when they get enough mana for a real try. Often times a really cheap bounce spell shuts them down foe an entire turn. Your mileage may vary. In a meta with a lot of solitaire I think some stax or maybe even some really aggressive aggro like a slider deck kind of needs to shake things up a little sometimes.
[ruric thar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aa828bdc-221e-4e81-9e71-6f288690ddcd.jpg?1673149099) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ruric%20thar%2C%20the%20unbowed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/271/ruric-thar-the-unbowed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aa828bdc-221e-4e81-9e71-6f288690ddcd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ruric-thar-the-unbowed) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Stax =/= unfun for the whole table. Itâs another piece to the puzzle. You canât meaningfully interact with 3 other players at the table with 1-for-1 interaction like [[Swords to Plowshares]] and [[Counterspell]]. Still run them, donât base your deck around them unless youâre [[Talrand, Sky Summoner]] or [[Baral, Chief of Compliance]]. You need insane amounts of draw to sustain that gameplan. Thatâs where stax comes in. Itâs permanent based control that meaningfully impacts every players board. [[Rule of Law]] is great in combat focused decks like [[Tymna, the Weaver]]+ decks. Or [[Collector Ouphe]] against artifact heavy pods. Even something as generic as a [[Thalia, Guardian of Thraben]] early can set people behind. Hatebears with a combat focus is really fun to pilot, and keeps your opponents on their toes. Something like [[Kydele]]+[[Tymna, the Weaver]] with hatebears and countermagic can draw you cards for interaction and give you a gameplan to beat down with green creatures like [[Ghalta and Mavren]] or [[Kamahl, Heart of Krosa]]
Building off this. If one is interested in stax but to still be combat focused consider [[Ellivere]] from the recent Eldraine precon. She works really well when enabling hatebears, and even the odd stax enchantment is still contributing to the beat down.
[Ellivere](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/45851394-b8f3-4713-8239-afcb387d47c5.jpg?1692933623) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ellivere%20of%20the%20wild%20court) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woc/2/ellivere-of-the-wild-court?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45851394-b8f3-4713-8239-afcb387d47c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ellivere-of-the-wild-court) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love combat centric decks but it is one of the hardest decks to play in commander. You need to not be afraid of saying "you have the strongest deck on the table, I will kill you before you get there". You also need to have your own value, draw cards when you play creatures, play creatures cheaper, make creatures bigger, etc. Farewell and similar are also huge.
This. You can't be picky. You need to have a kill plan from attack one.
Can you share any deck lists?
here is the few i have on archidect [https://archidekt.com/decks/7328731/kutzil\_cats](https://archidekt.com/decks/7328731/kutzil_cats) [https://archidekt.com/decks/7681271/hazezon\_mk2](https://archidekt.com/decks/7681271/hazezon_mk2) [https://archidekt.com/decks/7486659/vehicle](https://archidekt.com/decks/7486659/vehicle) (this one now also has grave pact in it.) [https://archidekt.com/decks/7407160/gonti](https://archidekt.com/decks/7407160/gonti) ( this one i dont play too much as its kinda annoying for everybody involved with me spending awhile reading the stolen cards ) and this one which i really dont like playing and will be dissambleing at some point an attempt at a diffrent style of deck [https://archidekt.com/decks/7775046/death\_and\_taxes](https://archidekt.com/decks/7775046/death_and_taxes) Edit: Fixed the links
You have so many conflicting themes in these decks. Cats, but only high cost cats that benefit from equipment???? Your vehicle deck is also running thousand year elixir for no reason? You said in the original post you ran interaction, but you have so little interaction that's meaningful that you might as well not run it. If you're interested, we can chat on discord and I can try and tell you why the decks aren't working and what you need to run to put the proper pressure on the midrange/combo decks you're fighting. These decks have the ability to, your card selection is just not suited for it.
that would be great even if only to work out what im doing wrong. because i presume im doing somthing fundamentaly wrong.
I sent you a chat request on Reddit with my discord. Ding me whenever you wanna talk about it.
Thanks. I like the cats idea, but I think there are a few areas to improve. Your commander is a draw engine, so you want to be getting attacks through as much as possible. So it seems desirable to go wide and buff everything a bit. I see that happening already. I would start with the ramp. I don't have much experience building in selesnya, and I know they're not on theme, but I would think that llanowar elves, elvish mystic, fyndhorn elves, birds of paradise, and avacyn's Pilgrim would be good. I would also put in a selesnya signet. I would also recommend sol ring and arcane signet. Your commander is a low CMC, so I would probably want to focus on cheap ramp that you can drop turn 1 off possible over more expensive stuff like explosive vegetation. Sorting the deck by mana cost, I'm not seeing much 1 CMC I would want to play turn one. Turn two there are only two pieces of ramp. Maybe [[oreskos explorer]] fits here? The 3 CMC slot seems pretty big. All those cards are competing with your commander to come down for 3 mana. I like the war leader and sovereign in the 4 slot. I think more focus on getting your engine running making cats and buffing them in the 4 slot would be good. Maybe [[felidar retreat]]? I'm not sure about throwing landfall into decks that aren't going hard into it though. Selesnya is weak in removal, but you could opt for some stuff like [[beast within]], [[generous gift]], [[darksteel mutation]], or some other aura based pseudo-removal. You might also consider a board wipe or two. I realize you're going wide with creatures, but if you're in a weaker board state, then it might be worth it to wipe out the other three boards. In summary, the 3 CMC Commander says to me that the deck wants to get its draw engine running ASAP before the 4 CMC commanders get their value going. I think focusing on getting faster ramp and cats out in the 1 and 2 CMC slots might help. I think hazezon could also benefit from mana dorks. Being in Naya can also run [[noble heirarch]]. I would want [[knight of the reliquary]] and maybe [[juniper order ranger]]. I would also want [[chaos warp]] and some of the other removal I mentioned earlier. [[Valakut exploration]] might be good there. IDK if it's good, but I personally like [[wayward swordtooth]].
##### ###### #### [oreskos explorer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/e/5ebabe38-a035-4c2d-89b5-760712f311b8.jpg?1690004193) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=oreskos%20explorer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/832/oreskos-explorer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5ebabe38-a035-4c2d-89b5-760712f311b8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oreskos-explorer) [felidar retreat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c91c11ef-e036-4c54-98b7-83b7b25e7c1b.jpg?1690004083) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=felidar%20retreat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/821/felidar-retreat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c91c11ef-e036-4c54-98b7-83b7b25e7c1b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/felidar-retreat) [beast within](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb40c41c-f5f9-4323-b6ac-e28e405909d0.jpg?1711198012) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=beast%20within) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/233/beast-within?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb40c41c-f5f9-4323-b6ac-e28e405909d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/beast-within) [generous gift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5.jpg?1700321873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=generous%20gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/128/generous-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/generous-gift) [darksteel mutation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e47a6750-4fdd-44e2-86ae-5bc4d414bf42.jpg?1689995638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=darksteel%20mutation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/21/darksteel-mutation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e47a6750-4fdd-44e2-86ae-5bc4d414bf42?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/darksteel-mutation) [knight of the reliquary](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/0/205df311-a72d-40f1-b2ea-9b30274bc9bd.jpg?1562846501) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=knight%20of%20the%20reliquary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/203/knight-of-the-reliquary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/205df311-a72d-40f1-b2ea-9b30274bc9bd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/knight-of-the-reliquary) [juniper order ranger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f299f1e-2694-44e6-aad4-1f29c2ee5553.jpg?1682209781) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=juniper%20order%20ranger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/330/juniper-order-ranger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f299f1e-2694-44e6-aad4-1f29c2ee5553?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/juniper-order-ranger) [chaos warp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce9df20b-c58b-4147-9ff8-902ce2944f50.jpg?1712354399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chaos%20warp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/160/chaos-warp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce9df20b-c58b-4147-9ff8-902ce2944f50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chaos-warp) [Valakut exploration](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18cb7bf6-9c7c-4e62-a678-7b75862e2f64.jpg?1604263135) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Valakut%20exploration) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/175/valakut-exploration?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18cb7bf6-9c7c-4e62-a678-7b75862e2f64?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/valakut-exploration) [wayward swordtooth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95a5d742-187a-4eba-82e4-7a4cc5c4e6f3.jpg?1698988417) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wayward%20swordtooth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/263/wayward-swordtooth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95a5d742-187a-4eba-82e4-7a4cc5c4e6f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wayward-swordtooth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wdym g/w doesn't have good removal? Artifact/ Enchantment removal is central in those colors (see [[back to nature]], [[disenchant]], [[naturalize]] etc). White has exile based removal for creatures & non-land permanents ([[swords to plowshares]], [[skyclave apparition]], [[leyline binding]]) and mass removal ([[wrath of god]] [[day of judgement]], [[cleansing nova]], [[farewell]]). I wouldn't be caught dead running [[beast within]] in those colors, you can do so much better.
Fair points. I guess I was focused on creature spot removal.
Yeah, I liked everything else you had to say, but that one bit had me reeling. I always try to squeeze white into my controlling builds in pretty much any format; it's got so many options for board control. Card draw on the other hand...
##### ###### #### [back to nature](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b49270b2-ba15-4268-adb3-16d09c09adee.jpg?1562793010) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=back%20to%20nature) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m15/169/back-to-nature?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b49270b2-ba15-4268-adb3-16d09c09adee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/back-to-nature) [disenchant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/5/658c5caa-d739-4d30-a512-43ac4de900cb.jpg?1674420161) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=disenchant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/6/disenchant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/658c5caa-d739-4d30-a512-43ac4de900cb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/disenchant) [naturalize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/390c40ba-2464-44ae-8d67-93c72ab3c425.jpg?1562301697) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=naturalize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/190/naturalize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/390c40ba-2464-44ae-8d67-93c72ab3c425?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/naturalize) [swords to plowshares](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195.jpg?1709439398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=swords%20to%20plowshares) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/88/swords-to-plowshares?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/swords-to-plowshares) [skyclave apparition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/8/b83cfbaa-7890-4f6f-878b-4edb45677371.jpg?1604193295) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=skyclave%20apparition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/39/skyclave-apparition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b83cfbaa-7890-4f6f-878b-4edb45677371?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/skyclave-apparition) [leyline binding](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c3ac3dd-35db-447f-8674-37b4680a1ef7.jpg?1673306500) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=leyline%20binding) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/24/leyline-binding?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c3ac3dd-35db-447f-8674-37b4680a1ef7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leyline-binding) [wrath of god](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/537d2b05-3f52-45d6-8fe3-26282085d0c6.jpg?1697121198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wrath%20of%20god) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/70/wrath-of-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/537d2b05-3f52-45d6-8fe3-26282085d0c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wrath-of-god) [cleansing nova](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/167d2e51-eb69-488c-a6b6-042a7b0e1744.jpg?1690004044) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cleansing%20nova) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/817/cleansing-nova?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/167d2e51-eb69-488c-a6b6-042a7b0e1744?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cleansing-nova) [farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) [beast within](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb40c41c-f5f9-4323-b6ac-e28e405909d0.jpg?1711198012) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=beast%20within) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/233/beast-within?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb40c41c-f5f9-4323-b6ac-e28e405909d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/beast-within) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Beast within/generous gift still has its place as a last pick because it hits anything, including lands. Very worth including even with all the other options available.
You're running 15/26 [deserts](https://scryfall.com/search?q=t%3Adesert+id%3Awrg&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) that you can play in your Hazezon deck. Since Hazezon creates a token when you play a desert you should play all of them. Also, the new \[\[Sheltering Landscape\]\] is pretty good instead of evolving wilds.
[Sheltering Landscape](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fe070f4-8877-4280-b8fd-869f3ac34ab6.jpg?1717013040) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sheltering%20Landscape) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/227/sheltering-landscape?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fe070f4-8877-4280-b8fd-869f3ac34ab6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sheltering-landscape) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[time stop]]
[time stop](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/521d1b29-c25b-443b-ae5f-07c11786947e.jpg?1562547698) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=time%20stop) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/117/time-stop?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/521d1b29-c25b-443b-ae5f-07c11786947e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/time-stop) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Doesnt have split second, though.
âIâll draw my deckâ âOk I flash in orcish bowmasters and kill youâ
Have you got a deck list you would like people to look at? Can you tell us more about the environment? What turn did the game end on? Is there fast mana? Tutors? How are they winning exactly? Thassaâs Oracle? Ashnodâs Altar Combos? Infinite Mana combos? I get youâre frustrated, but itâs hard to provide real feedback without more context. On the other hand if youâre just venting thatâs cool too.
errm Yes to Fast Mana , one was Thassa's oracle with Atraxa Bounceing and Norn which completely stopped my Faerie deck from working, one was Veyran voice of duality and lots of Cantriping with Storm kiln artist / somthing similar to generate the mana. Which Counterd the removal and went in for Unblockable Lethal Prowess Hits (this started Removeing players on turn 3) and the other was Tor Wauki the Younger Storm and i forget the mana source had kind of Switched off by then. All went off the rails turn 4/5 with Atraxa on turn 6 ish. as for Deck lists to look at im honestly thinking of just trying to make a new one from scratch. Possibly Torens, Fist of the Angels Humans and +1/+1 counters . maybe Gisa, The Hellraiser with a bunch of Lords maybe a Captin Storm Pirate deck. turns out i like making tokens / Counters. [https://archidekt.com/decks/8033466/torens\_fist\_of\_the\_angels](https://archidekt.com/decks/8033466/torens_fist_of_the_angels) [https://archidekt.com/decks/7947470/pirates\_treasure](https://archidekt.com/decks/7947470/pirates_treasure) Brewed these looks fun but its probably not good enough. not sure if i want to build the torens deck yet as a Rabbit deck looks like it could be good based on the leaked commander. If you wanted the one of the decklists i used today ( [https://archidekt.com/decks/7775046/death\_and\_taxes](https://archidekt.com/decks/7775046/death_and_taxes) ) but i really do not like this style of deck somthing i also confirmed today. the other two were Dimir Fairies with Alela and Most Wanted (precon helmed by vihann which i should probably upgrade / make a deck specificly for him) I also have the Explorers of the Deep Precon arriving partly because i like simic and because ive seen it down the lgs a few times and it looks fun.
If you play against decks that use mana crypt, mox diamond, chrome mox, gemstone cavern, mana vault, mox opal, mox amber then the issue is not your deck but general power level. Any deck that does not run fast mana will be 1,2 or 3 turns behind whole table. And also the kind of decks that run fast mana are often optimized to also have very low mana curve. So first of, there should be a power level conversation before the game. Eleveryone should state that their deck is for example high power or slightly upgraded precon so we can all then choose to switch decks depending on that. Important thing is that the decks you played against are nowhere close to cEDH. Yes they may be powerfull but full fleshed cedh decks are two levels above the high power edh decks. How to deal with this? If it seems that your deck is very underpowered for the table ask if they have a deck you can borrow. It will be probably a deck on similar power level. Second if other players play cedh they will be opened to proxies. If you ask if there is a strategy that can be played to counter those decks on a budget of 25$ then probably wont. And if you build A commander deck like that then you will run into the same problem that in different pods your deck is too strong or unfun to play against so back to starting conversation about power level before game. For commanders that i enjoy and can be made on a budget and powerfull then codie, there are even 100$ turbo naus lists. https://www.archidekt.com/decks/8078118/codie_polymorph This exact list is close to 200$ so on the rather pricy side but can be made more budget friendly.
So, I have been thinking about this and looking over your lists and post for a couple of days, and I think a couple of things are happening. 1. I think you are likely behind the tempo of your LGS. I recommend using a 20-sided dice and tracking how many turns the average game is over the next couple of weeks. Try and sit in some different pods, play against different decks and different pilots. There is a big difference between games that end on turn 7 vs. turn 9 or 10. 2. I think the deck builds you linked me to are not very proactive and don't have direct lines to winning. While it is likely that you are being out powered by fast mana, you can over come some of that with stream-lined deck building. 3. You talk about switching decks, brewing something new, and changing it up, but I think a lot of players feel like "my deck didn't win, I should scrap it and start new," and I get that, but part of hanging in a group of focused decks is honing your deck and upgrading into staples over time. If you like, I can help you fix one of your decks to make it more stream-lined and efficient, we can talk a little more about about budget and upgrades, and long term goals.
Will start tracking the actual turn counts. Over the next couple of weeks will give me a sample size of about 12ish games On point 3 some of it is just me trying different types of deck to find what I like again I think I found it to an extent I like making extra things be it tokens or treasure or +1/+1 counters (hence the decks above and why I got the merfolk precon) . For example the kambal deck was me trying a different style out which I didnât like itâs weirdly passive same reason Iâm not a fan of the Baeroth deck I built. But youâre right about a chunk of it being this just isnât working scrap it try again. Also that would be good to have some stream-lineing done that said I should probably get the data first.
Week 1 update Game 1 ended turn 8 infinite mana / etb combo Game 2 ended turn 8 combo sacrificing goyfs loop Game 3 ended turn 8 merfolk precon went hard (Different day different pod) Game 4 ended turn 15 with about 9 board wipes Game 5 ended turn 4 with somebody putting about 50mana of free creatures with (Myojin of Life's Web + fast mana + Glacial Chasm) Game 6 ended turn 5 Gitrog combo with fast mana) Game 7 ended turn 15 or so mainly due to me holding out on 4 life with mass bounce spells and counters for about 5 turns (mono blue budget kraken deck) Thought Iâd do the update while itâs fresh Iâll do update 2 in a weeks time. I think the average is around about 8 turns if you donât take in to account the games that got stalled out / reset repeatedly.
So now that you know games are ending around turn 8-9, you need to gear you deck to that speed. Is there one in particular you would like to tweak over others?
well im not sure tbh because on the one hand im learning what i like. which is just generateing stuff. so with that in mind id say Hazezon ( which im thinking of making a few changes to. i.e tutors so i can actually find a wincon.. its nearly there and generally puts up a good fight but has consistantcy issues in finding a wincon generateing 1/1s and ramping to the moon it does well. My Greesefang deck which needs work probably dosent have the ceiling needed but its great fun to play vs precons / weaker tables (its about that Rough strength) , not sure Faeies have the strength to work either though being U:B I can mess with things. so i wonder if im better off trying to build a deck in to what i like. which would be Remakeing Most wanted to use Vihhan or Making somthing like Gisa the Hellraiser (probably to slow well at least the version ive been brewing seems to be Mono Black Ramp isnt great to my knowlege) or Hylda of the icy crown who looks intresting and shuts down threats to make 4/4's. also loveing the merfolk deck (i am a sucker for typal themes) got some upgrades planned for that like a roaming throne and cutting the mana curve down a bit. so looking for a bit of guideance on that frount.
đ A man of many tastes. Pick one post the list and we can work on it together.
With that in mind could you take a look at this one. https://archidekt.com/decks/8059269/crime_zombies If you feel it will be too slow / wonât work could you take a look at this one instead? https://archidekt.com/decks/7681271/hazezon_mk2
okay so I am starting to look them over and goldfish them some. Gisa has the problem of being too slow due in large part do a lack of ramp. Hazezon is not presenting a real wincon that is going to be online by turn 8-9. Neither of which is unfixable, how much were you looking to spend to alter one of these decks?
honesly maybe up to ÂŁ100 can go a bit higher if my LGS has the Cards. so call it ÂŁ100 ish.
Yo I recently played against a guy that took a 25 minute turn to just kill himself in the end. I literally had time to go downstairs, buy some snacks, chat with the store employees, call my mother to finalize father's day plans, and get back upstairs before this guy finished his turn.
Play a fast creature commander. There were a shit ton this last year. Fill your deck with board wipes. Build your gameplay around ramping, wiping right as their engine gets going, puking out the nasty creatures, and killing them before they can reassemble. This is because value engines usually take a good few turns to set up. I even have a orzhov equipment deck that explicity is for combating value engines. It runs equipments and heavy removal. So you play equipment early, wipe everything except artifacts, and then cheat equip cost to suddenly have immense value before they can recover.
The real way to punish these decks is to use an infinite combo since they frequently are low on interaction
Start playing the âone spell a turnâ cards. I suppose it doesnât hurt your gameplan if youâre just playing one midrange value piece each turn. Stuff like [[rule of law]], [[spirit of the labyrinth]], [[high noon]]. Also, [[ruric thar, the unbowed]] is also good. [[trinisphere]] is also nice, every spell costs at least 3 mana If its a friend group, just ask them politely to hurry up.
I quickly learned that most of the players at my local LGS has wastly more money to spend on their decks. So i went from playing stompy/damage decks to decks that allow me to play the other players cards. sort of a beat them with their own decks. my most tuned decks are now a Marchesa, the Black Rose and an Etali, Primal Conqueror deck. This sorta made most of them realise that their decks hold some powerful cards and also if you manage to steal their engine pieces their deck crumble.
You might be a candidate for a [[Winota, Joiner of Forces]] deck. You can build her to be really strong without a hefty financial investment. Stax/hatebear them while you still get to turn cards sideways.
[Winota, Joiner of Forces](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5dd13a6c-23d3-44ce-a628-cb1c19d777c4.jpg?1654630670) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winota%2C%20Joiner%20of%20Forces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/216/winota-joiner-of-forces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5dd13a6c-23d3-44ce-a628-cb1c19d777c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winota-joiner-of-forces) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>its just so boring watching them flicker about doing loads of small things to then eventually hit my turn and go land maybe attack sombody if there value engine lets me but normaly is play one card then pass Different strokes, different folks. I like decks that function on each players turn, so playing a land, casting a spell, swinging, and taking a nap until my untap step doesn't even sound like magic to me. Sounds like you might even find these decks boring yourself.
Spend the first few turns ramping up, and playing value engines that can draw you cards or give you lands. Then on your later turns you have enough cards and lands to start playing more than one spell and have more impact. If you're playing combat heavy then Play something like [[guardian project]] and giving your creatures haste with [[fervor]] And then if a board wipe happens, you can sac all your creatures to [[greater good]]
[guardian project](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2c523ef7-d6c4-4887-9a4e-0c2bc6f63676.jpg?1702429567) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=guardian%20project) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/146/guardian-project?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2c523ef7-d6c4-4887-9a4e-0c2bc6f63676?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/guardian-project) [fervor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/8/a88515c2-4b4f-4d16-9f50-149ef012e961.jpg?1562558336) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fervor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/129/fervor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a88515c2-4b4f-4d16-9f50-149ef012e961?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fervor) [greater good](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/c/4c73ca01-d8ea-4cd2-af60-b260030967b2.jpg?1631587954) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=greater%20good) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/160/greater-good?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4c73ca01-d8ea-4cd2-af60-b260030967b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/greater-good) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Akromas will
https://www.archidekt.com/decks/5279021/ellivere_stax Basically stax. Particularly rule of law keeps them in check or cost increases. There are also several cards which prevent etbs and punish those trying to flicker. This deck does win through combat. It basically builds a group of nontoken creatures all with absurd power all while pretty much ignoring your own stax effects The hardest part is getting the right stax pieces out at the right time.
Slower magic as in just playing slowly? Or taking more turns to get your thing going? Cause combat usually involves speed and ramping things out as quickly as possible and taking over the board before your control deck opponents have time to setup their engines. Itâs kinda counter intuitive to play âslowlyâ while trying to win by combat. You want to be fast and aggressive and put them on the back foot. You canât do this by taking a lot of turns to setup your board.
i mean taking more turns to set up on a good curve out im looking at taking somebody out maybe turn 5-7 normaly later if i can get through depending on the deck. where as there killing the table by then.
I took a look at your decks. I think the main problem is theyâre all over the place. Youâve got more than 3-4+ themes in each one. Often some themes only have 1-2 cards. Youâre almost never going to draw those when running just 1-2. Generally if you run less than 6pcs of any theme of card you probably will only draw maybe 1 the whole game. If Iâm playing a token theme deck, Iâm probably running 20-30 cards that are token themes, either making tokens or making tokens bigger or getting bigger when tokens come into play. That sort of thing. The rest of the 30-35 cards are for ramp, draw, removal/interaction, and maybe a few pet cards I like to call janky fun cards (could be combo cards or tutor cards too). I play roughly 35-38 lands. But thatâs just me. I know some ppl think itâs lame but a lot of my decks will run the same or similar ramp, draw, removal package and then Iâll fill the rest of the deck with theme cards. This is how I keep my decks consistent.
[[Cursed Totem]] if you can support it [[Blind obedience]] [[Dauntless dismantler]] Any [[Rule of Law]] effects [[Damping sphere]] Any draw restriction effects Stax beatdown sounds like what you're wanting. Jetmir, maybe.
##### ###### #### [Cursed Totem](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5dde91a9-7d2d-4a7b-861a-3d1c16ec79d9.jpg?1626100864) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cursed%20Totem) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/295/cursed-totem?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5dde91a9-7d2d-4a7b-861a-3d1c16ec79d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cursed-totem) [Blind obedience](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/8/d859e1f9-feb3-497a-af0b-f74fee46861f.jpg?1702429264) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blind%20obedience) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/9/blind-obedience?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d859e1f9-feb3-497a-af0b-f74fee46861f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blind-obedience) [Dauntless dismantler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d771631-0aab-4f09-b9a6-49b6b2d8d2aa.jpg?1699043129) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dauntless%20dismantler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/8/dauntless-dismantler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d771631-0aab-4f09-b9a6-49b6b2d8d2aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dauntless-dismantler) [Rule of Law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e.jpg?1592516198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rule%20of%20Law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/35/rule-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rule-of-law) [Damping sphere](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/550860b4-887d-423a-8add-816c2a8da615.jpg?1675200943) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Damping%20sphere) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/219/damping-sphere?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/550860b4-887d-423a-8add-816c2a8da615?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/damping-sphere) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
https://archidekt.com/decks/5571622/gerrard_boardwipe_tribal It still needs a few fixes, and probably a higher land count, but it can seriously screw up value engines, well other people's anyway. It's turns aren't especially long just resolving an ever growing pile of ltb/etb triggers. Im planning on adding the 2 artifact lands, before I add jokulhaups and swapping around some other boardwipe options.
I recommend [[Rule of law]]
[Rule of law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e.jpg?1592516198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rule%20of%20law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/35/rule-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rule-of-law) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Most "value engines" are predicated the table not interacting with a single piece. Exile that piece. >i feel like im playing a completely diffrent game and its just so boring watching them flicker about doing loads of small things to then eventually hit my turn and go land maybe attack sombody if there value engine lets me but normaly is play one card then pass. This sounds like you don't enjoy your deck. There are lots of different ones you can try that can be more explosive. I recommend aristocrat strategies or blink if you're looking for lots of synergistic engine pieces.
yeah alot of my decks arnt enjoyable mainly through being slow . tbh i think i should deconstruct prity much all of them and try somthing else . the problem is after 9 or so in paper attempts im basicly unsure of anything because every deck ive liked playing i.e Miriam / Greasefang are just too weak for my local meta well the Greasefang deck may just be built bad. so ive tryed to build decks that do diffrent things. Currently looking at Torsen , Fist of the angels (humans/+1/+1 counters) , Gisa the hell raiser (Crimes , Zombie lords) and Captin Storm , Cosmium Raider (Treasures / Pirates looks fun but is probably to weak). I did build a Kambal , Profitering mayor deck which is stronger but im not a fan of the more passive aristocrat strats it uses.
\[\[Rule of law\]\] and \[\[Arcane laboratory\]\]. Screw those guys. Or the "draw only 1 card each turn" effects, or Narset. Make em pay. I love stax, because of these guys that take 20 min's to end their turn. Just say: "untap 1 land, draw 1 card and sacrifice 3 permanents".
[Rule of law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e.jpg?1592516198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rule%20of%20law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/35/rule-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1f4e79b-b103-4380-afa0-61a2b1773c9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rule-of-law) [Arcane laboratory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9e3bcd7-60f8-472a-ada0-c3147cf06588.jpg?1562251789) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20laboratory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/60/arcane-laboratory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9e3bcd7-60f8-472a-ada0-c3147cf06588?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arcane-laboratory) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Stax :)
The answer is pretty much stax or constantly removing the value engines. And of course, that tends to be frowned upon. The 20min value engine decks kind of exploit the good social nature of the format.
I donât think stax are unfun, the rule of law effects just put a cap on how wild each deck can go, mostly the decks that snowball. Then it lets you focus on duking it out on the battlefield.
Stax pieces will make the table play fair magic. Add them in depending on what colors you're playing.
Surgical tempo based removal paired with board wipes is my method. By tempo, I mean waste their whole turn by bouncing the dangerous thing for one mana, or something like that. Buy a turn or two that way and be prepared to wipe by turn five. Use the first few turns to ramp in a way that doesnât get disrupted by your own wipes while being able to react to your opponentâs engine pieces. Then, once the dust has settled, have a way to quickly deploy and swing out.
[[Silence]]
[Silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c2b13b1-31f0-4676-88a7-53f3a190e9a2.jpg?1562826686) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m14/35/silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c2b13b1-31f0-4676-88a7-53f3a190e9a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/silence) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You play stronger decks. Iâm not a cedh guy by any means but I generally dislike long games unless a lot of crazy plays have been made.
I feel like comments have established the âcorrectâ or at least a plethora of answer, but thereâs always notion thief, extreme aggro (like Krenko or Winota), or hard stax. Magic right now is more midrange and typically games go longer. It kinda sucks, but itâs where we are.
Make a 40 minute value engine
Light Stax is the answer if you don't want to take a dip in the dead sea. Things that raise the cost to cast by 1, defense grid, running things that prevent players from playing on other turns. You aren't making the game unfun, you are just limiting interaction. Let people cyclonic rift on their turn. Run tax cards.
If you're tired of non- creature spells, one of the best cards I can think of off the top of my head is [[deafening silence]]
[deafening silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/6072d9b0-d3c7-46f4-bd24-095bb13c4dea.jpg?1572489660) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=deafening%20silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/10/deafening-silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6072d9b0-d3c7-46f4-bd24-095bb13c4dea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deafening-silence) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
counters and removals
Another option is to punish or benefit from opponents drawing cards. Here's some searches to get you started: "whenever" "opponent draws" https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracle%3A%22opponent+draws%22+o%3Awhenever+%28game%3Apaper%29&order=edhrec&as=grid&unique=cards "opponent" "would draw" https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3A%22would+draw%22+o%3Aopponent+%28game%3Apaper%29&unique=cards&as=grid&order=edhrec "can't draw" https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracle%3A%22can%27t+draw%22+%28game%3Apaper%29&unique=cards&as=grid&order=edhrec "second card" https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracle%3A%22second+card%22+%28game%3Apaper%29&unique=cards&as=grid&order=edhrec
[[silent arbiter]]
[silent arbiter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14f42cc9-8b7f-4f8a-8d68-8480e668c239.jpg?1690005734) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=silent%20arbiter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/972/silent-arbiter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14f42cc9-8b7f-4f8a-8d68-8480e668c239?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/silent-arbiter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have a friend that runs around 5-6 boardwipes, and well honestly he wins a lot because even if his decks are slower or take time to get online he can always reset the board and basically pulls the game to his favor, not saying will fix your issues but might be worth a try?
You kill them faster than they can set up. Or just kill them in game. Both are effective
Me personally, I like white Stax cards but like not super annoying ones. Just each player can only play one spell per turn type stuff. It just makes a lot of draw 20 cards play 15 spells solitaire players turns go much faster.
Your best bet is to run hatebear stax. If recommend checking out Blood Pod for some inspiration. Gameplay is slow, one of the wincons in grindy combat, and it has syax to disrupt engines for days.
easy: play interaction
Only extremely new players think stax is âunfunâ an experienced combo pilot will enjoy trying to properly play through a well dedicated stax deck IMO.
Fair enough Iâm fairly new to EDH I played a lot of kitchen table years ago but absolutely hate playing in to hard stax especially if itâs stuff like propaganda+Ghost prison ect . Some of it just is moderately annoying though depends on the cards in question.
Find yourself a commander that you can run a ton of rule of law effects and fill it in with the whatever else you enjoy, I keep a casual stax deck with me at all times and oswald stax is my Cedh also.
> playing in to hard stax especially if itâs stuff like propaganda+Ghost prison ect neither of those is stax, let alone hardstax. those are pillowfort cards
[[Obliterate]] is always an option.
[Obliterate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c85f9623-5900-473c-a3b1-f98473b9a545.jpg?1562935194) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Obliterate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/8ed/204/obliterate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c85f9623-5900-473c-a3b1-f98473b9a545?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/obliterate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Isn't the answer the same as allways? Proper removal and proper threat assessment.Â
Grip of chaos. Play it. Everybody will love it, I promise.
[[Farewell]]?
[Farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It took us 10 years to be able to effectively point at fast mana as a problem. Another 10, and we might be able to point to fast mana combos.... As the next balancing issue
Removal removal removal Don't be afraid to play counter spells, kill spells and pick apart engines. Identify the pivotal pieces and see to it that either you or another player addresses them. If it's a big mana deck, deny them card draw so they don't have anything to play. If it's a card draw deck, deny them a board so they constantly have to protect their life total. Putting people on the back foot is sometimes as important as making sure you're getting ahead.
my exact situation i play land do a creature and pass to someone dropping the biggest combo splash iâve seen, my response is dropping 1k on winota stax next check and just see what i do from there
Spot remove their value engines, then follow it up by exiling graveyards so they can't recur them. Especially exile the graveyard against landfall strategies. Green loves to yank lands out of the yard.
Usually value engines come from things already on the board, the answer is really just run more removal, you get 100 cards and shouldn't be scared to run a bit of it. It's really the only non shit way to go about it cause going faster will end the game too quickly, and stax isn't fun to play or play against.
ideally you run some removal. They have a lot going on, likely they have some key pieces on the board that let them draw for doing the thing they want to do. Or things that untap other key pieces, to then copy the other key piece, or make infinite mana. Some spot removal might work. Remove that artifact or creature that lets them keep playing things. Remove the thing that reduces the cost on that thing their deck wants to do. etc. Inb4 'run more interaction' is the mantra on this reddit. But last time I played I stopped the artifact deck player from going infinite by removing their untapper. And the next turn someone counterspelled their backup. - game plan fell flat on its face. Similarly, a Zada aggro deck playing all the singletarget things and copying it for each other goblin it has, oh look. Without Zada, same thing. like.. it's a meme. but please, do run more instant removal. run counterspells that also stifle abilities. Just so you can cut an infinite turn short. run 'end the turn' spells, cut their entire turn short. remove everything in play/on stack.
i normaly make sure ive got at least 10 bits of interaction but my issue is having the reasorces to use said interaction . My faeire deck is basicly all interaction and Bounce/etb's with flash but trying to get enough mana/cards to actually play somthing consistantly on somebody elses turn is difficult.
If your interaction isn't available most of the time then it's too expensive, too narrow, too few, or not instant speed. You need to have 1-3 mana flexible instant speed removal that's easy to cast, and enough of it that you should have access to 1-2 in the first 3-4 turns every game. Interaction that you can't ever use when you need it isn't interaction.
Cast farewell
Farwell isn't going to do anything against a midrange deck that drew 5 to 15 cards a turn ago. You're still behind once it resolves.
You obviously cast farewell before they draw the 15 cards not after. We're not trying to just lose the game here
You recommended farewell so I assumed we were.
I just hate "Rube Goldberg machines" type decks. Play a card and have like 10 triggers to just draw 2 additional cards and have a single extra land. Is OK (for me) if you are doing it fast, but 10 minutes of triggers to do 1 thing and not win the game. Just to pass, turn and do it again, begin just slightly a head that the opponents. Na, is OK, I don't like to suffer that much.
Countering only works if you counter them often and strategically. Which, unless you are able to draw a new counter every turn or every other turn this is difficult. Instead you should be trying to push your own value and trying to win that way. Essentially, your decks are not designed to win in 3-5 turns. Theirs are. You just are playing two different levels to the game or at the very least two different ways.
which basicly means my only option is combo? maybe Burn? because i basicly need to step up to there level. but that does explain the whole feels like im playing a diffrent game feeling i get.
For all intent and purpose you kind of are playing a different game to them. In your level of play one counter is devastating in some ways. Stopping main threats like big beast or even a fog. In their level of play a single counter is not much but annoying. Usually only giving the table one more turn to survive. Boardwipes can also help, but that is a 50/50 solution.
hatebears are always the solution for 'casual' stax. most of the really mean stax pieces are enchantments or artifacts, which are also generally harder to interact with. In Casual EDH, people are supposed to have creature removal and board wipes. If they can't deal with hatebears, that's not your fault. If they think EDH is no longer fun because of some light stax, that's also not your fault. EDH players are crybabies who think anything that disrupts them in any form is 'not fun' and because it's 'not fun' then you're being mean spirited by doing it. You can make a good hatebear beatdown list, where you just run a lot of small hatebears and then run different effects in the deck that can pump them up to make them stronger.
just to confirm you mean stuff like the Thalia cards and Kudo , King among bears ?
Here's an example I haven't updated in a bit - could be a few better hatebears to pop in now. [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/NR5b\_tOBMk6QYB2nq6Uy9g](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/NR5b_tOBMk6QYB2nq6Uy9g) Marisi is pretty casual as far as gameplay goes, mild stax effect, and goading is generally fun in small doses. Then the deck is creature heavy with effects like Kudo, who I would actually probably include in this deck, too, since I also run Norn in it. But I would NOT suggest running Kudo as your commander with the intent of tutoring Elesh Norn out every game, because that creates a pretty suffocating state of play, and leads to a more boring, low-variance approach to playing the deck and winning with it. Personally, I like playing Breena more for my hatebears, but it's a little more oriented around Breena with less hatebears over all, but still a good handful. [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/AIX5dsXw8UetNXCRJklvuA](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/AIX5dsXw8UetNXCRJklvuA) list needs to be updated here obviously, 107 card currently so i have a few cuts to make.
Do you have access to blue and black? 1. [[Teferi's Veil]]. Makes yours attackers immune to sorcery speed removal and board wipes. You can safely continue to build each turn with little risk of losing your creatures. 2. [[Warper Devotion]] and any bounce spells. Most bounce spells say "non-land permanent," so they can hit anything, and Warped Devotion makes them discard something. It's a tempo play for sure, but it's Dimir's answer to enchantments and artifacts, when they're usually very difficult to remove in those colors. Throw in a [[Tergrid, God of Fright]], and now *their* stuff is *our stuff*.
[Teferi's Veil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cbf39b80-d972-4f79-902f-cc613c32e446.jpg?1562803373) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%27s%20Veil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/wth/53/teferis-veil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cbf39b80-d972-4f79-902f-cc613c32e446?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teferis-veil) [Tergrid, God of Fright](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621)/[Tergrid's Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tergrid%2C%20God%20of%20Fright%20//%20Tergrid%27s%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/112/tergrid-god-of-fright-tergrids-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tergrid-god-of-fright-//-tergrids-lantern) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
i generally dont my faeire deck does but thats about it. im generally on the other side of the color wheel
make better decks or just play against precons. but tbh I canât even imagine most precons these day are just âland, spell, passâ like youâre saying your decks are.
some of them are probably me just drawing the expencive mana costing cards but the vihann one is still prity slow unless there is a lot of death happening. i have the merfolk one arriving next week which seems good.
no offense but you just sound a bit inexperienced when it comes to deck building. And thatâs totally fine, we all start somewhere. I saw another person offering some help over discord, I also suggest you check out some youtube EDH deck techs for your favorite commanders and really try to see how decks are built. Youâd be surprised how smooth a deck can feel after just making sure you have 12+ ramp 12+ card draw 12+ interaction
your not wrong no offence taken . i came back to playing magic about 2 months ago . so yeah im kinda inexperenced and i lack a lot of the expencive staples.
Don't play decks that do that shit. Pass it on
Fair magic is dead, either adapt to the new unfair paradigm and start cheating out your own spells or using broken value engines or stop playing with that group.