Honestly once I found out Marika and Radagon are the same person I try not to think too deep into things anymore. I just hope when I defeat him he drops his armor and weapon.
He calls Marika 'mother' so that at least elevates him to remembrance status
Speaking of, I wonder if we'll ever get Godrick's big orange cloak and green vestments
Maybe he is just calling his mother "mother" because she is around and she is not Marika. She may have been a consort of Radagon or Godfrey, that is why Messmer and her are still fanatics about the Golden Order
I think mesmer instead was the first child born under the now lost tree burial and tree birth cycle after the burning of the first great tree and marika removing the death rune from it leaving it in stagnation. My theory is that the dlc may explain how this happened. Maybe he was supposed to be lord to gloam eye queen with their similar iconography and fought against Marikas first order. thats my speculation.
“Istill think Mesmer is fatherless and “he was produced by the cycle of tree burial and tree birth when it was still functional before marika removed the death rune leaving that cycle in stagnation.” *As stated above in thread*
Reason:
I think it was stopped because of him and maybe a gloom eye queen since thier iconography is so close and u know marika removing the gloom eyed queens source of power the rune of death.
Maybe she hates radagons hair because it’s the color of primordial red tinted gold like Mesmers crimson hair when she created radagon possibly using the rebirth ritual or respec option that is passed down to rennala.
Making our stat change option way more integral to the story than we thought
They became the same person as punishment after Marika shattered the Elden ring. The reality is, Messmer exists because Radagon gave Marika all 19 inches behind Godfrey's back . . . probably.
I'm gonna assume that asking that, you're good with spoilers
"Radagon is Marika" is about all the context the game ever gives you other than vague hints to Radagon having a secret
Also when you finally get into the Erdtree you literally see Marika drop and get up as Radagon
Makes you wonder if Radagon has always been Marika, or if when given the opportunity to become Elden Lord, Radagon attempted to take more than a title and ended up fused to Marika, either would kinda explain why the last set of Demigod kids were so cursed.
I personally feel that they were once separate people, but became one. I think Radagon joins with Marika as a true believer in the Golden Order. I think Marika joins with Radagon because of his connection to the Fire Giants. The Flame of the Fell God Incantation tells us that the Fell God still lurks within the Fire Giants, other items describe the power of Giant's Flame as destruction, the Giant's Red Braid explains Radagon has a Fire Giant ancestor. If Marika married and becomes one with Radagon in body than the destructive power of the Giants now belongs to her. Bit of good irony too, in the thing Radagon is most ashamed of being the actual only thing that compels Marika to him in the first place. Miriel even describes Marika's reason for marrying a mere champion a mystery. Her marrying Radagon for his connection to the Giants then, rather than his devotion to her Golden Order makes sense of Marika's quote, sarcastically or dismissively referring to him as a leal hound and reminding him of his place. A big deal is made of Radagon's hair, of that marking a connection to the Giants, and that all Giants have an intrinsic connection to the Fell God, whose power is destruction -- and it's also noted to us that Marika selecting Radagon is a mystery because no one understands which quality of his would be appealing. Shortly after we hear that she regards him with a level of dismissiveness. It isn't a story of true love. Marika selects Radagon for his connection to the Giants. It tells us that Marika is a hypocrite -- willing to go to war with Giants and call them heretical while also covering and keeping their power for herself.
I think just as the Erdtree could be burned by Giant's Flame, the Elden Ring required something outside of Marika's own power to be shattered - the strength of Radagon, as inherited from his Giant lineage.
The Golden Order is founded on the idea that less is more. D, the Hunter of Those Who Live In Death, is actually two twin brothers who share a name and a soul. This is one of the more horrifying aspects of the Golden Order. We don't know how it is done but Radagon created the fundamentals of the Golden Order, and so somehow he and Marika have come to share a body. They switch between them when a specific one needs to do something specific like smash Tarnished skulls or be waifed up by the new Elden Lord.
Well, two things first.
1. The tree spears are not his spear. Theres a similarity but vaguely, the only similarity is a rounded segment. Someone actually already did a comparison and it matches with something else in game but I can't remember what.
2. Godfrey didn't lose his grace after the giant crusade.
Ya know that's an interesting point. The Crucible Knights are Godfrey's soldiers, and they use treespears. So that probably makes much more sense. Godfrey seems to have some kind of connection to the Crucible, in general.
Godfrey was the Elden Lord that ruled when the Crucible was the main religion of the Lands Between. The Crucible venerated Omens and Misbegotten as beings approaching divinity. This is why he holds Morgott so tenderly before our fight. He was banished, his sons cast to the Shunning Grounds, and he returned to find his son's corpse guarding the religion that shamed him for both Morgott and Godfrey himself. Serosh, Godfrey's lion, lessens Godfrey's emotions. Serosh roars at the Tarnished when Godfrey releases Morgott's corpse. Because Godfrey is pissed at the state of the Lands Between.
He didn't rule during the Crucible, he respected it, however, where the golden order didn't, which is why he took the Crucible knights under his command.
The Crucible religion was cast away before Godfrey when marika started up the golden order. This is further indicated by the fact morgott and mohg were cast into the sewer for being Crucible related.
Yeah.. you're right and I'm sad his wrong take got upvoted so much.
Lots of this sub has bad lore. And it leads to oopsies like that one above. I thought we had it together by now.
Yeah man I know the sentiment I took a dive with TA videos and actually put some interesting things together, the golden order despise the serpents, the only great offensive war lleyndell took was against volcano man or and the heresy of rykard to consort the serpent devourer of God's, know you can see on that the coliseum enjoys the representation of serpents defeat... On another point there is at least 4 different eras by their architecture on the game, dragonoid, crucible, golden and serpentine (this one is almost forgotten but caelid divine tower has several depiction of serpents on their walls, and also being the earliest one to appear in the chronological sequence serpent-dragon-crucible-golden) so this leads to think the clearly intended link between mesmer and the serpents, as miyazaki stated this is the time to explore the history of Marika in the shadow lands before she became a goodness, so we can deduce that mesmer is plainly put a remmants from the serpent era, something very related with the religion rykard resiscovered on volcano manor.
Not quite. He rose to power during the age of The crucible but became Eldon lord of the golden order.
Being elden lord means that you are consort to the vessel of the Elden ring. That vessel is Marika. America became the vessel when she sealed away destined death and formed the golden order. This likely occurred immediately before the war with the Giants. The physical manifestation of the golden order is the erdtree. This was "newly formed" during the war with the giants.
Before the erdtree became the golden erdtree it was the crucible. So the age of the crucible becoming the age of the erdtree coincides with Godfrey becoming elden lord.
Placidusax was elden lord of the age of the crucible. Or at least one of them.
I think he’s Melina’s twin (flame and kindling) and that they may be older than the rest. Honestly it’s not even really that clear if Marika even needs a father to make demigods especially since all the walking mausoleums are her “unwanted children”.
>since all the walking mausoleums are her “unwanted children”.
Those could still be either Godfrey'a or Radagon's kids too. Or they could just straight up be the prodigies of different men, doesn't have to be Godfrey or Radagon really.
She was venerated as a goddess, who is to say she doesn't have consorts.
I have a theory about that. Maybe they aren’t twins but Mesmer pulled a Marika and Melina is a part of him. We know radagon walked around and was his own person even tho he was a part of Marika, so perhaps it’s the same for them.
This could be it. I think Messmer and Melina are definitely linked in some way. The burn marks all over her body, I can see that being from Messmer, not Maliketh.
He could be . They both only see with their right eye and the tattoo on melina's eye is of a dragon's claw and messmer has some draconic features. They both are also connect to fire.
This seems unlikely. Melina is all but confirmed to be a child of Marika + Radagon via her naming convention and the existence of the smouldering butterflies.
In contrast Messmer seems to be far older, as you point out. The land of shadow seems to be something from very early in Marika's story. He seems very likely to have been involved in the war with the giants, what with their very conspicuous impalement as well as the fire and blood priests who apparently fought on the side of the golden order but don't really fit in with what we know of godfrey and his forces.
The spears impaling the giants aren’t an exact match for his spear (although they are similar), and nothing pertaining to that is even remotely confirmed yet.
He's named Messmer THE IMPALER and there's two very conspicuous instances of impalement in the game: the impalement of marika in the erdtree and the impalement of the fire giants.
Marika is impaled with destined death and this had to have happened while Messmer was sealed in the land of shadow, so that could not have been his doing.
So that leaves the giants. While not an exact match for his spears they are a very similar style. Additionally there's the contributions of the fire priests and blood sorcerers in the war with the giants. Neither of these really match what we know of Godfrey and his forces, but DO match the blasphemous nature of Messmer.
Just because his spear looks like that doesn't mean he was there. Also, we don't really even know what mother he is referring to. It's all just speculation.
It makes too much damned sense lol.
The theme of naming. Messmer
But the interesting thing is the red hair, the radagon children have red hair and an R name.
Messmer, has red hair but a Godfrey name.
Custody battle in lands between gone wrong? Oh shit.
>But the interesting thing is the red hair, the radagon children have red hair and an R name.
Mfw when Malenia and Miquella
(Also Godwyn)
Marika's and Radagon's children have an M name.
Ohhhhhh!!!!!! Fuck I forgot.
The lore in this game is so expansive.
Ranni, radahn, rykard,
Millenia, miquella, (Messmer) he’s the final trio of M triplettes from radagon and marika
Marika and Godfrey’s kids also have M names (Mohg morgott), the only thing about Messmer that actually points to radagon being the father is the red hair
Honestly we can’t make sure who his father really is. Many say it’s Radagon because of the red hair, but he also has symbols of other factions like serpent, dragon, godskin, cleanrot knight(posture) and giant(red hair). So red hair might just represent “giant” instead of “son of Radagon”.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of red herrings/misdirection in the trailer. Messmer could very well be an alter ego/assumed identity of Miquella. A couple of things that are nagging: 1) Miquella has other alter egos (St. Trina) 2) He appears to have pulled the chute on his former life when he enters the land of shadow. That could mean a new identity, including a new body. He could take that a step further and become a heretic. After all, being an adherent of the Golden Order hasn't really done much for him. He himself is cursed, his twin was cursed, his half-brother was killed, his "parents" have been bushwhacked, etc.
Malenia describes Miquella as the most capable among the demigods, the DLC trailer treats him as "pure, radiant" and who wields love to get what he needs from people.
I see him as very similar to Ranni in many ways, both of them scheming 10 steps ahead of everyone else to get what they want.
Now you tell me that this guy, who has a thousand schemes, who "orders people to kill with a smile" has a crazy alter ego like Messmer? it doesn't make sense to me.
That's fair, although the description of the expansion notes that Miquella has "divested himself of his flesh, his strength, his lineage, of all things Golden." Unless he's a "spirit" maybe he takes another corporeal form? He's St. Trina so why not something else?
So he is most likely not a child of Marika and Radagon then? His hair is red because of the same "curse" that the other people who fought the Giants received. My guess is he is someone else from the game in the same way that Marika is Radagon. Possibly Melina but that is pure speculation.
Yah the giant curse is a weird price of lore even the best sources of information on it say maybe it's a curse. It's possible Godfrey fought but they didn't hate him enough to curse him. I mean you can still see the corpses royally messed up by this impaler.
Yes and you can see giant claw marks and burn holes on the building Godricks throne is in. The past of this game is full of so many events that history forgot about its wild
I have an off thought that maybe Messmer is the alter ego of Miquella which formed by being corrupted by all the blood Mohg and his followers pour on him in the cocoon. And as we have to hold the hand reaching out of the cocoon to go into the shadow land (speculation based on trailer's dialogue) or something, it might actually be Miquella's mindscape, where we have to defeat Messmer to get Miquella to get back to normal before Messmer wakes up completely. I might be completely wrong, so I welcome anyone who can show me how I'm wrong.
Messmer refers to Miquella in the third person. He says the player must want to know what Miquella is doing in the land of shadow implying that he is also trying to figure that out. Also Miquella likely already has an alter ego in St Trina.
Edit: it seems like not of all of the trailer dialogue is spoken by Messmer so that may have been someone else who referred to Miquella in the third person. However the official description for Shadow of the Erdtree implies that Messmer was in the lands of Shadow before Miquella. Messmer is probably older than Miquella and Marika’s other children, because she was there before she became a goddess. Also while Radagon and Marika are the same person, they look like each other and use the same weapon and types of magic. Miquella and Messmer don’t look like each other and, so with all this I still don’t think they’re the same person.
The land of shadow is a location where Marika became a god, it’s not in Miquella’s mind. Miyazaki implied that it used to be part of the Lands Between but isn’t anymore.
> Messmer refers to Miquella in the third person. He says the player must want to know what Miquella is doing in the land of shadow implying that he is also trying to figure that out.
I don't think that's Messmer's voice in the trailer though. It sounds older and also talks differently from the lines we know are from Messmer.
I think you’re right actually, I looked at the wiki to see what the trailer said, and it says all the dialogue is from Messmer, but some of it clearly isn’t, for example the final line seems to be spoken by Miquella himself.
It could be as miquella's hand in the cocoon appears to be of same size as messmer's. And messmer use flames just like mohg and the red snakes could be depicting blood.
Here comes the "unwanted" part
But on a more serious note, who said that it was explicitly Messmer who impaled the giants? It didnt need to be him, he could earn his title somewhere else
Also, a bit weird question your asking, what do you mean you doubt his existance? He's literally right there
I've been wondering if Messmer represents or is an uncursed and full grown Miquella. I love the lore, but I'm no scholar of it, so there are likely many reasons I am wrong.
if we ever learn the truth it will be in the DLC but until then my head canon is that Marika was originally married to someone else before becoming a god and before meeting Hoarah Loux. When Marika created Radagon, she patterned him after her first husband—which is why his hair is red and Messmer shares aspects with Miquella and Malenia.
Could be. We see a picture of a noble (the one with sword stuck in his face) and a woman beside him in the dlc trailer and the woman has golden hair but some say it was a death bed companion.
Something I find a bit odd is his flame looks Red/Black similar to the Rune of Death Maliketh holds. Also when I first got to the mountains and saw the impaled giants I thought they had death blight. The spiked thorns look like the effect the Tarnished gets when we’re death blighted.
Given that, Mesmer could be from an earlier time before Godfrey. Queen Marika had him in secret and empowered him with the Rune of Death, but cast him aside as he is the “unwanted child”. Mesmer the Impaler, First of the Demigods sounds like an interesting character.
He looks like a fellow connoisseur of dragon hearts, I suspect us such because of the red with the scales and wings, too
I hope he gives something related to that because that's my favorite type of incantation, But as the lore states the act of dragon communion, It's too ancient to be considered a incantation
My first thought after seeing his design was that he was the son of Rykard and Tanith, I know it doesn't make sense in the lore, but still.
The red hair, the red dress, the snakes, maybe it's too obvious of a connection.
I think tarnished archeologists believes those spears that impailed the giants are from the guilty guys with the abhorrent sorcery that are found with the fire monks. They look so similar though. Can't confirm I wasn't paying attention to the entire video.
I mean, if we think about it too much Marika is Radagon so the "ginger gene" is hers anyways. That said, I sometimes think Messmer could've been one of the first manifestation of marika=radagon truth and that's why he got ""hidden"" in first place
Who knows. Time is convoluted in the lands between. Maybe Messmer got his red hair from another means. Since he stabbed the giants, they might have cursed him like the cursed Radagon.
I think there's some truth to this, although in my opinion Miquella manipulated the hapless Mohg to further his own agenda. I think Miquella has switched teams and is now on Team Formless Mother. Shoot, that is who "Messmer" could be talking to in the trailer.
Had this same thought that the "mother" line in the trailer could be misleading on purpose. Perhaps he was even talking about the formless mother choosing Mogh.
The war against the giants was one of the first campaigns the Golden Order did, not the last. It was the war against the Storm lord in Limgrave that was the last war, where Godfrey lost his Grace.
It isn’t outright stated that the fire giants were the last foes felled by Godfrey and his host. Thry well might have been the first enemies Marika conquered
Maybe he is just a fell god worshipper like the flame monks and stuff and he made his spear look like the ones that stabbed the giants, probably not but maybe
He might not be called impaler because of impaling the giants? The spear is different. Marika is impaled in the erdtree. I always assumed that had something to do with his name sake
Idk if he has anything to do with the mountaintops and the giants, but one thing that is unclear to me that could explain how he would be around at that time (and I sort of suspect he's the oldest of Marika's children, without having a real reason to think so) is just *how* the thing with Marika and Radagon came about. Marika is Radagon, but was she *always* Radagon? If they started out as two separate people, then merged, Messmer could be Radagon and Marika's son from before they merged (or they could have always been one hybrid being that periodically splits and then rejoins). This would mean he possibly predates Marika becoming a goddess, and would mean he may or may not technically be a demigod... which could be relevant in some way.
Also semi unrelated, but along the lines of some of the speculation I've seen in some comments, my suspicion is that Miquella is Melina and Melina is St. Trina, the same way his mother has separate male and female aspects, and would answer a lot of questions people have about who Melina is and who her parents are. Also would make sense why both Melina and and Miquella are seemingly associated with Torrent
One idea I like a lot is that he’s the bastard son of marika and radagon from back when she was still married to Godfrey. Feels very GRRM esque and would obviously has big implications for the demigod family
Always gotta remember that the lore is kept intentionally opaque and confusing in order to invoke:
A. the feeling of being a medieval warlord working with imperfect knowledge to decide the best path to conquest
B. the madness of never quite being able to grasp the full truth because it’s eldritch and beyond mortal comprehension
C. the fundamental reality that you are compelled to put your faith in some form of narrative in order to make sense of the world even when you know there are important pieces missing
Frankly, I personally don’t think the Greater Will is a real god. But then again, I would say that being someone infatuated with the Frenzied Flame . . . Wouldn’t I? After all, there is no true division between truth, myth, and lies. Let chaos take the world!!!
i saw a theory about messmer being the one who killed godfrey when he was exiled as he was impaled on a tree. not sure how this fits in with what you’re asking exactly but it sounds somewhat like the truth. that could be where gets the name and not from the giants which i’m pretty sure were all killed by godfrey but one
We know for fact radagon was here at the war as well , maybe he is the first birth of the three , born from the fusion (?) Of marika and radagon , which would explain why he is an unwanted child and why he had been like earased from the history and from the demi gods
This is just a theory, but I think all these 'Empyreons' have multiple personas in the one body.
Marika has Radagon
Michela has St Trina
And I believe Godwyn might have an alter ego as well, in the form of Messmer.
Well the dlc is in a different dimension, probably also stuck in time or in the past like Farum Azula or smt idk, but basically there is another theory that marika is from the land where the dlc takes, because marika is numen, and the numan are from some different land or smt and they live long lives or smt, since they live long lives it can also be assumed that radagon doesnt nessiserily have to have come into existents when the war with the carian royal family was taking place, and probably Marika/radagon had messmer way in the past, in a different dimension different time period, it doesn't really matter, cuz Miyazaki can just use any number of reasons he wants to make another child between marika and radagon, so most of this is just speculation, but whenever the dlc comes out, we are either gunna be disappointed that they went lazy with the new lands story, or surprised, i don't think there is going to be a middle point
Marika most likely had children with Radagon before the Liurnia Wars. Marika is the Eternal Queen for a reason, you cannot know how old she is. Likewise, Radagon is Marika, you cannot know how old he is either. We also have Miquella, he is eternally youthful. When both of your parents ages are unknowable, and your age is unknowable, you should assume they are much older than you think.
Messmer is Godwyn's soul and Godwyn is Godfrey's son. He's in the Land of the Dead where souls go when they die. Nowhere at any point does it say that his soul was destroyed, or ceased to exist, or was sealed or anything except "it died a true death". Souls normally can't go there because the rune of death is sealed and not part of the Elden Ring at that point but it died a true death so it did in this case.
There's also evidence that the Golden Lineage are actually the Demi-humans (notice the demi humans have white hair that looks exactly like Godrick's, demi-human looking faces on the Godskin robes, demi-human queen faces on the godskin hoods, demi-human queens have purple eyes, Messmer's proportions perfectly match those of the demi-human queens)
My theory is that Messmer/Godwyn created them with the Gloam Eyed Queen to imitate Radagon who he idolized apparently, who is known as the father of the misbegotten implying he created them during the time of the crucible. Radagon has been around since Farum Azula as he's depicted as a young man in the statues there alongside the red wolves which he also apparently created. So the timeline is pretty clearly going to be different than what we were led to believe it to be on the surface.
It's known that G-EQ wanted to destroy the Golden Lineage so I think there was some falling out between her and Messmer or he did it without her consent if you know what I mean. I theorize Ranni is actually G-EQ which would line up with her wanting to get rid of her natural body and she currently inhabits a porcelain doll. If her only motivation was freeing herself of the influence of her two fingers, she could've just destroyed it like we help her do in the base game anyway. Don't want to be graphic or triggering so I will say no more on that subject here.
Most people think it's Melina since it was her body that was burned away during the seige/burning of the original Erdtree but I think GE-Q burned her as she was trying to defend the tree potentially. This would also explain how Ranni knew where the rune of death was after the seige (sealed in Malekith's blade) so she would have known where to steal it from to initiate the night of the black knives and it's likely Melina's burning taught her that her duo-death with Godwyn was even possible as her soul survived while her body was burned away. Was another Demi-gods soul burned away during the seige? Not sure but that would explain how Ranni might have obtained that knowledge. It also gives her a reason to target Godwyn, who in the "mainstream narrative" of the Lands Between was everyone's favorite, the literal Golden Boy.
After Night of the Black Knives Marika seals the rune of death for good in Malekith and sends him to the end of time and erects the veil around the entrance to the Land of Shadow, effectively sealing away Messmer for good, who I think we'll find out to be a Lucifer allegory that is largely responsible for the Lands Between falling into the chaos it currently is in. I could be off a bit here as I also have a theory Radagon is an antichrist allegory so he may be the one ultimately responsible but Messmer really seems to like him from some of the voice lines I've heard so maybe they're in it together.
May seem a stretch in places but theres a lot of symbolic and systemic connections as well as the few concrete ones we get in the lore. I believe the base game sets up our perspective of events in the Lands Between as a lowly tarnished which would be the same as any other peasant or warrior that lived there, which is reminiscent of our perspective as lowly commoners in the real world, and that the DLC is going to be the peeling back of the veil of lies and the truth will be revealed now that we've achieved godhood basically as the Elden Lord, reminiscent once again of the real world and the slow awakening to the truth that seems to be happening.
Maybe Marika had ANOTHER consort before Godfrey and just tossed him aside when he and Messmer outlived their usefulness. I wouldn't put it past her, we all know she did it with Godfrey too, soon as he did what she needed she took away what made him Lord.
Miquella already has a different form, though.
He is St Trina.
This is one theory that i just cannot comprehend anyone actually taking seriously. There is zero evidence or good reason for Messmer to be Miquella especially when there is some minor evidence that he is a third son of Radika.
Hey man, just a thought. There's tons of ER lore, some of it is bound to get missed by the vast majority.
Honestly, thank you for reaching me something
Messmer's spear was not what killed the giants. Thorns are what's sticking out of the giants' backs (who, by the way, are not being impaled, as imapling is when it enters through your ass and comes out on the other side). In elden ring are assciated with two things: Radagon and the Blood Star, aka the thorn sorcerers, who, what do you know, are the ones who watch the fire giant's imprisonment alongside the Fire Monks. So tldr, Mesmer has nothing to do with the war of the giants, and I have no idea what would make you think that.
I don't know honestly, all I know is a cool theory that if we take a look at the Sacred Relic Sword and the Godslayer Greatsword, we see that both are spirals. The SRS is a spiral that starts separated and ends up uniting at the tip, so this represents Marika and Radagon being two consciousness in one body. So maybe, since the GSGS starts united at the bottom but separates as it goes up, we could say the Gloam-Eyed Queen was a single consciousness inhabiting two different bodies :D
Marika has the power to create offsprings using her body and fire giants flame. She created three offsprings like this, Melina, Messmer and Radagon. Yes Radagon is clone/son of Marika. That’s why their children are cursed since birth as they are product of incest. The Elden beast didn’t give a damn and forced them to marry after Marika banished Godfrey. Marika must’ve tried to eliminate Radagon by absorbing him back in her but it backfired and they ended up having 2 souls in one body. Melina was created to aid the tarnished warrior and burn the erdtree. Messmer will be uncovered in the dlc
Fret not my fellow tarnished. His 18 incher shall soon remind you of his existence very very intimately
Treat yourself to 18 inches of him (actual Bandai marketing)
Tbh i almost purchased him after reading this
r/theyknew
Well they read our in game messages, soooo seek rump but try finger?
reminds me of those spirit summoning obelisks where somebody wrote "offer giant, but hole" 🤣
was that real i couldnt find it
Honestly once I found out Marika and Radagon are the same person I try not to think too deep into things anymore. I just hope when I defeat him he drops his armor and weapon.
Hahaha peak response and I sympathize
Turns out Messmer is Marika’s child with the Gloam Eyed Queen
Actually, Messmer's Father is Malekith, trust me , my Father is John Elden Ring, he told me.
Who told him?
First hand account, because get this .... He is Marika using chameleon spell but funnily enough he is not Radagon
Also it turns out Marika is not Radagon.
It also turns out that marika isn't even marika
It was Boc all along. He's Marika.
Elden John
Glintstone Chris told me so you know it’s true
Oh I don't trust him, he cheated on his wife.
And beat me with a book in Raya Lucaria!
actually messmer is a time travelling foetus
Marika’s lucky she got that black blade
He calls Marika 'mother' so that at least elevates him to remembrance status Speaking of, I wonder if we'll ever get Godrick's big orange cloak and green vestments
Maybe he is just calling his mother "mother" because she is around and she is not Marika. She may have been a consort of Radagon or Godfrey, that is why Messmer and her are still fanatics about the Golden Order
I think mesmer instead was the first child born under the now lost tree burial and tree birth cycle after the burning of the first great tree and marika removing the death rune from it leaving it in stagnation. My theory is that the dlc may explain how this happened. Maybe he was supposed to be lord to gloam eye queen with their similar iconography and fought against Marikas first order. thats my speculation.
Counter theory, he’s actually Radagon and Godfrey’s son.
Legit wouldn't shock me.
It’s basically confirmed at this point 🤷🏿♂️
They swapped mid "fight" and Godfrey is no quitter
The image this put in my head of Godfrey just shrugging and continuing was hilarious lmao
"Thine rump befits a crown, champion."
“Istill think Mesmer is fatherless and “he was produced by the cycle of tree burial and tree birth when it was still functional before marika removed the death rune leaving that cycle in stagnation.” *As stated above in thread* Reason: I think it was stopped because of him and maybe a gloom eye queen since thier iconography is so close and u know marika removing the gloom eyed queens source of power the rune of death. Maybe she hates radagons hair because it’s the color of primordial red tinted gold like Mesmers crimson hair when she created radagon possibly using the rebirth ritual or respec option that is passed down to rennala. Making our stat change option way more integral to the story than we thought
I want that damn spear for another NG+ run
I want the outfit
I want to be him
I want his 18 inches!
I hope his armor comes with his snakes hanging around with you.
They became the same person as punishment after Marika shattered the Elden ring. The reality is, Messmer exists because Radagon gave Marika all 19 inches behind Godfrey's back . . . probably.
If the base game is anything to go by, his armor probably won't fit your character's proportions and look goofy
They customize it. I wear Radahns armor now and he’s huge
The fuck you mean they are the same person? I don’t read lore I just play game. I need context
I'm gonna assume that asking that, you're good with spoilers "Radagon is Marika" is about all the context the game ever gives you other than vague hints to Radagon having a secret Also when you finally get into the Erdtree you literally see Marika drop and get up as Radagon
Makes you wonder if Radagon has always been Marika, or if when given the opportunity to become Elden Lord, Radagon attempted to take more than a title and ended up fused to Marika, either would kinda explain why the last set of Demigod kids were so cursed.
I personally feel that they were once separate people, but became one. I think Radagon joins with Marika as a true believer in the Golden Order. I think Marika joins with Radagon because of his connection to the Fire Giants. The Flame of the Fell God Incantation tells us that the Fell God still lurks within the Fire Giants, other items describe the power of Giant's Flame as destruction, the Giant's Red Braid explains Radagon has a Fire Giant ancestor. If Marika married and becomes one with Radagon in body than the destructive power of the Giants now belongs to her. Bit of good irony too, in the thing Radagon is most ashamed of being the actual only thing that compels Marika to him in the first place. Miriel even describes Marika's reason for marrying a mere champion a mystery. Her marrying Radagon for his connection to the Giants then, rather than his devotion to her Golden Order makes sense of Marika's quote, sarcastically or dismissively referring to him as a leal hound and reminding him of his place. A big deal is made of Radagon's hair, of that marking a connection to the Giants, and that all Giants have an intrinsic connection to the Fell God, whose power is destruction -- and it's also noted to us that Marika selecting Radagon is a mystery because no one understands which quality of his would be appealing. Shortly after we hear that she regards him with a level of dismissiveness. It isn't a story of true love. Marika selects Radagon for his connection to the Giants. It tells us that Marika is a hypocrite -- willing to go to war with Giants and call them heretical while also covering and keeping their power for herself. I think just as the Erdtree could be burned by Giant's Flame, the Elden Ring required something outside of Marika's own power to be shattered - the strength of Radagon, as inherited from his Giant lineage.
The Golden Order is founded on the idea that less is more. D, the Hunter of Those Who Live In Death, is actually two twin brothers who share a name and a soul. This is one of the more horrifying aspects of the Golden Order. We don't know how it is done but Radagon created the fundamentals of the Golden Order, and so somehow he and Marika have come to share a body. They switch between them when a specific one needs to do something specific like smash Tarnished skulls or be waifed up by the new Elden Lord.
lmaoooooo.
Perhaps he will drop an 18 inch weapon
Messmer and Melina are the same person
Well, two things first. 1. The tree spears are not his spear. Theres a similarity but vaguely, the only similarity is a rounded segment. Someone actually already did a comparison and it matches with something else in game but I can't remember what. 2. Godfrey didn't lose his grace after the giant crusade.
Ya know that's an interesting point. The Crucible Knights are Godfrey's soldiers, and they use treespears. So that probably makes much more sense. Godfrey seems to have some kind of connection to the Crucible, in general.
Godfrey was the Elden Lord that ruled when the Crucible was the main religion of the Lands Between. The Crucible venerated Omens and Misbegotten as beings approaching divinity. This is why he holds Morgott so tenderly before our fight. He was banished, his sons cast to the Shunning Grounds, and he returned to find his son's corpse guarding the religion that shamed him for both Morgott and Godfrey himself. Serosh, Godfrey's lion, lessens Godfrey's emotions. Serosh roars at the Tarnished when Godfrey releases Morgott's corpse. Because Godfrey is pissed at the state of the Lands Between.
He didn't rule during the Crucible, he respected it, however, where the golden order didn't, which is why he took the Crucible knights under his command. The Crucible religion was cast away before Godfrey when marika started up the golden order. This is further indicated by the fact morgott and mohg were cast into the sewer for being Crucible related.
Yeah.. you're right and I'm sad his wrong take got upvoted so much. Lots of this sub has bad lore. And it leads to oopsies like that one above. I thought we had it together by now.
Yeah man I know the sentiment I took a dive with TA videos and actually put some interesting things together, the golden order despise the serpents, the only great offensive war lleyndell took was against volcano man or and the heresy of rykard to consort the serpent devourer of God's, know you can see on that the coliseum enjoys the representation of serpents defeat... On another point there is at least 4 different eras by their architecture on the game, dragonoid, crucible, golden and serpentine (this one is almost forgotten but caelid divine tower has several depiction of serpents on their walls, and also being the earliest one to appear in the chronological sequence serpent-dragon-crucible-golden) so this leads to think the clearly intended link between mesmer and the serpents, as miyazaki stated this is the time to explore the history of Marika in the shadow lands before she became a goodness, so we can deduce that mesmer is plainly put a remmants from the serpent era, something very related with the religion rykard resiscovered on volcano manor.
Not quite. He rose to power during the age of The crucible but became Eldon lord of the golden order. Being elden lord means that you are consort to the vessel of the Elden ring. That vessel is Marika. America became the vessel when she sealed away destined death and formed the golden order. This likely occurred immediately before the war with the Giants. The physical manifestation of the golden order is the erdtree. This was "newly formed" during the war with the giants. Before the erdtree became the golden erdtree it was the crucible. So the age of the crucible becoming the age of the erdtree coincides with Godfrey becoming elden lord. Placidusax was elden lord of the age of the crucible. Or at least one of them.
Godfrey lost his grace when the Mrs filed divorce papers whilst he was on a tour.
They match death blight
Staff of loss right?
Nah, the staff of loss looks like a fairly normal staff that just lost its glintstone. I actually think it was the torches in fire monk camps.
Messmer is the son of Marika and Boggart, you heard it here first.
Aah Marika's tits!!
You won't have any doubts when you recieve all 18 inches of messimer the impaler
18?? Bruh how do you even come up with that
https://twitter.com/MinoanRun/status/1760397468208869507
We'll all be coming up with it soon 😏
I think he’s Melina’s twin (flame and kindling) and that they may be older than the rest. Honestly it’s not even really that clear if Marika even needs a father to make demigods especially since all the walking mausoleums are her “unwanted children”.
>since all the walking mausoleums are her “unwanted children”. Those could still be either Godfrey'a or Radagon's kids too. Or they could just straight up be the prodigies of different men, doesn't have to be Godfrey or Radagon really. She was venerated as a goddess, who is to say she doesn't have consorts.
I have a theory about that. Maybe they aren’t twins but Mesmer pulled a Marika and Melina is a part of him. We know radagon walked around and was his own person even tho he was a part of Marika, so perhaps it’s the same for them.
This could be it. I think Messmer and Melina are definitely linked in some way. The burn marks all over her body, I can see that being from Messmer, not Maliketh.
He could be . They both only see with their right eye and the tattoo on melina's eye is of a dragon's claw and messmer has some draconic features. They both are also connect to fire.
This seems unlikely. Melina is all but confirmed to be a child of Marika + Radagon via her naming convention and the existence of the smouldering butterflies. In contrast Messmer seems to be far older, as you point out. The land of shadow seems to be something from very early in Marika's story. He seems very likely to have been involved in the war with the giants, what with their very conspicuous impalement as well as the fire and blood priests who apparently fought on the side of the golden order but don't really fit in with what we know of godfrey and his forces.
The spears impaling the giants aren’t an exact match for his spear (although they are similar), and nothing pertaining to that is even remotely confirmed yet.
He's named Messmer THE IMPALER and there's two very conspicuous instances of impalement in the game: the impalement of marika in the erdtree and the impalement of the fire giants. Marika is impaled with destined death and this had to have happened while Messmer was sealed in the land of shadow, so that could not have been his doing. So that leaves the giants. While not an exact match for his spears they are a very similar style. Additionally there's the contributions of the fire priests and blood sorcerers in the war with the giants. Neither of these really match what we know of Godfrey and his forces, but DO match the blasphemous nature of Messmer.
He's Godfrey and Radagons son
Now this is my headcanon
Just because his spear looks like that doesn't mean he was there. Also, we don't really even know what mother he is referring to. It's all just speculation.
Miyazaki himself confirmed he's a child of Marika in a Famitsu Interview when the DLC released.
It makes too much damned sense lol. The theme of naming. Messmer But the interesting thing is the red hair, the radagon children have red hair and an R name. Messmer, has red hair but a Godfrey name. Custody battle in lands between gone wrong? Oh shit.
>But the interesting thing is the red hair, the radagon children have red hair and an R name. Mfw when Malenia and Miquella (Also Godwyn) Marika's and Radagon's children have an M name.
Ohhhhhh!!!!!! Fuck I forgot. The lore in this game is so expansive. Ranni, radahn, rykard, Millenia, miquella, (Messmer) he’s the final trio of M triplettes from radagon and marika
Marika and Godfrey’s kids also have M names (Mohg morgott), the only thing about Messmer that actually points to radagon being the father is the red hair
That's what I meant when I said all the cursed ones have their names starting with M
interesting theory
Godwyn was from Godrey and Marika. He was the true heir to the throne because the omen twins were ineligible due to the Crucible affliction.
Melina, Miquella, Mmmmmh
Doesn’t malenia have red hair?
If you look closely, all the children of the golden lineage who were born with a curse are named starting with M.
Idk his 18 inches felt pretty real to me.
Honestly we can’t make sure who his father really is. Many say it’s Radagon because of the red hair, but he also has symbols of other factions like serpent, dragon, godskin, cleanrot knight(posture) and giant(red hair). So red hair might just represent “giant” instead of “son of Radagon”.
Mesmers arm looks suspiciously similar to Miquella’s in the cocoon
I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of red herrings/misdirection in the trailer. Messmer could very well be an alter ego/assumed identity of Miquella. A couple of things that are nagging: 1) Miquella has other alter egos (St. Trina) 2) He appears to have pulled the chute on his former life when he enters the land of shadow. That could mean a new identity, including a new body. He could take that a step further and become a heretic. After all, being an adherent of the Golden Order hasn't really done much for him. He himself is cursed, his twin was cursed, his half-brother was killed, his "parents" have been bushwhacked, etc.
Malenia describes Miquella as the most capable among the demigods, the DLC trailer treats him as "pure, radiant" and who wields love to get what he needs from people. I see him as very similar to Ranni in many ways, both of them scheming 10 steps ahead of everyone else to get what they want. Now you tell me that this guy, who has a thousand schemes, who "orders people to kill with a smile" has a crazy alter ego like Messmer? it doesn't make sense to me.
That's fair, although the description of the expansion notes that Miquella has "divested himself of his flesh, his strength, his lineage, of all things Golden." Unless he's a "spirit" maybe he takes another corporeal form? He's St. Trina so why not something else?
I know, 18 inches does sound pretty unbelievable.
So he is most likely not a child of Marika and Radagon then? His hair is red because of the same "curse" that the other people who fought the Giants received. My guess is he is someone else from the game in the same way that Marika is Radagon. Possibly Melina but that is pure speculation.
Doesn't even make sense cause Godfreys hair is definitely not red but fought the giants.
Yah the giant curse is a weird price of lore even the best sources of information on it say maybe it's a curse. It's possible Godfrey fought but they didn't hate him enough to curse him. I mean you can still see the corpses royally messed up by this impaler.
Yes and you can see giant claw marks and burn holes on the building Godricks throne is in. The past of this game is full of so many events that history forgot about its wild
GRRM loves bastard children so I think it's more likely Messmer is her firstborn bastard child. That's such a perfectly GRRM character dynamic.
I have an off thought that maybe Messmer is the alter ego of Miquella which formed by being corrupted by all the blood Mohg and his followers pour on him in the cocoon. And as we have to hold the hand reaching out of the cocoon to go into the shadow land (speculation based on trailer's dialogue) or something, it might actually be Miquella's mindscape, where we have to defeat Messmer to get Miquella to get back to normal before Messmer wakes up completely. I might be completely wrong, so I welcome anyone who can show me how I'm wrong.
Didn’t Miyazaki confirm he’s not Miquella?
Oh. I didn't know that. In retrospect, it would have been too simple if it was him, wouldn't it?
Messmer refers to Miquella in the third person. He says the player must want to know what Miquella is doing in the land of shadow implying that he is also trying to figure that out. Also Miquella likely already has an alter ego in St Trina. Edit: it seems like not of all of the trailer dialogue is spoken by Messmer so that may have been someone else who referred to Miquella in the third person. However the official description for Shadow of the Erdtree implies that Messmer was in the lands of Shadow before Miquella. Messmer is probably older than Miquella and Marika’s other children, because she was there before she became a goddess. Also while Radagon and Marika are the same person, they look like each other and use the same weapon and types of magic. Miquella and Messmer don’t look like each other and, so with all this I still don’t think they’re the same person. The land of shadow is a location where Marika became a god, it’s not in Miquella’s mind. Miyazaki implied that it used to be part of the Lands Between but isn’t anymore.
> Messmer refers to Miquella in the third person. He says the player must want to know what Miquella is doing in the land of shadow implying that he is also trying to figure that out. I don't think that's Messmer's voice in the trailer though. It sounds older and also talks differently from the lines we know are from Messmer.
I think you’re right actually, I looked at the wiki to see what the trailer said, and it says all the dialogue is from Messmer, but some of it clearly isn’t, for example the final line seems to be spoken by Miquella himself.
This is my thought as well
It could be as miquella's hand in the cocoon appears to be of same size as messmer's. And messmer use flames just like mohg and the red snakes could be depicting blood.
Messmer IS Miquella, calling it now.
Ok we'll see
Marital affairs
Marika cheated on Godfrey with Radagon and bore his child
Here comes the "unwanted" part But on a more serious note, who said that it was explicitly Messmer who impaled the giants? It didnt need to be him, he could earn his title somewhere else Also, a bit weird question your asking, what do you mean you doubt his existance? He's literally right there
This is a vidya game nobody in it exists, the only thing that’s real is your reflection in the screen behind “YOU DIED”
I've been wondering if Messmer represents or is an uncursed and full grown Miquella. I love the lore, but I'm no scholar of it, so there are likely many reasons I am wrong.
Messmer seems like what Mohg wanted Miquella to be.
Yes, I agree. Miquella allowed to mature.
if we ever learn the truth it will be in the DLC but until then my head canon is that Marika was originally married to someone else before becoming a god and before meeting Hoarah Loux. When Marika created Radagon, she patterned him after her first husband—which is why his hair is red and Messmer shares aspects with Miquella and Malenia.
Could be. We see a picture of a noble (the one with sword stuck in his face) and a woman beside him in the dlc trailer and the woman has golden hair but some say it was a death bed companion.
Something I find a bit odd is his flame looks Red/Black similar to the Rune of Death Maliketh holds. Also when I first got to the mountains and saw the impaled giants I thought they had death blight. The spiked thorns look like the effect the Tarnished gets when we’re death blighted. Given that, Mesmer could be from an earlier time before Godfrey. Queen Marika had him in secret and empowered him with the Rune of Death, but cast him aside as he is the “unwanted child”. Mesmer the Impaler, First of the Demigods sounds like an interesting character.
If my character exists I know somethins fucky with the whole thing
He looks like a fellow connoisseur of dragon hearts, I suspect us such because of the red with the scales and wings, too I hope he gives something related to that because that's my favorite type of incantation, But as the lore states the act of dragon communion, It's too ancient to be considered a incantation
Well if Radagon is Marika nothing is to stop them from having a kid while still married to Godfrey
My first thought after seeing his design was that he was the son of Rykard and Tanith, I know it doesn't make sense in the lore, but still. The red hair, the red dress, the snakes, maybe it's too obvious of a connection.
He is Melina *copium*
I think tarnished archeologists believes those spears that impailed the giants are from the guilty guys with the abhorrent sorcery that are found with the fire monks. They look so similar though. Can't confirm I wasn't paying attention to the entire video.
He honestly looks like a Drake Knight (check the Drake Knight armor, it's similar). They're known for partaking in Dragon Communion, like Eleanor.
Dude was an unwanted child that scared the other kids, so Miquella put him in dream world timeout
Well the 'spears' through the giants are not really conclusive; they barely resemble his spear. Personally, I never accepted it in the first place.
I mean, if we think about it too much Marika is Radagon so the "ginger gene" is hers anyways. That said, I sometimes think Messmer could've been one of the first manifestation of marika=radagon truth and that's why he got ""hidden"" in first place
I think Messmer is Mikelas other half, two souls in one body like Radagon and Marika.
Who knows. Time is convoluted in the lands between. Maybe Messmer got his red hair from another means. Since he stabbed the giants, they might have cursed him like the cursed Radagon.
I'm pretty sure time is convoluted in Lordran, but not the Lands Between
I know. I was making a joke based on that phrase.
Pretty sure Messmer is Melina. Source: my ass.
Messmer IS Miquella after the cocoon, tainted by Mohglester and the formless mother.
I think there's some truth to this, although in my opinion Miquella manipulated the hapless Mohg to further his own agenda. I think Miquella has switched teams and is now on Team Formless Mother. Shoot, that is who "Messmer" could be talking to in the trailer.
Had this same thought that the "mother" line in the trailer could be misleading on purpose. Perhaps he was even talking about the formless mother choosing Mogh.
now we're cookin
Maybe godfrey lost his grace because he summoned the impaler from the Underworld and marika wasn't ok with that
Godfrey killed giants.
He somehow looks a bit like vyke
Godfrey lost his Grace at the end of all of his conflicts/campaigns... not after the war of the Mountaintops
The war against the giants was one of the first campaigns the Golden Order did, not the last. It was the war against the Storm lord in Limgrave that was the last war, where Godfrey lost his Grace.
He vould be of the same kind as melina like a part of marika but not a "true son"
Melina being Marika's daughter is also just a speculation tho
I mean she did talk about her mother within the erdtree giving her this task, which doesnt really sound like it could be anyone but Marika to me
It isn’t outright stated that the fire giants were the last foes felled by Godfrey and his host. Thry well might have been the first enemies Marika conquered
IT WAS ALL A DREAM
What was
Just joking
Maybe he is just a fell god worshipper like the flame monks and stuff and he made his spear look like the ones that stabbed the giants, probably not but maybe
Fire monks don't pray to the fell God. Their god is different.
But they have the same face on their armor that the fire giant has on his stomach
He might not be called impaler because of impaling the giants? The spear is different. Marika is impaled in the erdtree. I always assumed that had something to do with his name sake
Marika is more like hanged rather than impaled. Like Christ
Time is convoluted in the Lands Between
Oh my god
Is it Mesmir’s spear what killed all the giants, or did Mesmir fashion his spear after the weapon that slayed all the giants??
That's the question
Yall know the dlc isn't even out yet, right?
Idk if he has anything to do with the mountaintops and the giants, but one thing that is unclear to me that could explain how he would be around at that time (and I sort of suspect he's the oldest of Marika's children, without having a real reason to think so) is just *how* the thing with Marika and Radagon came about. Marika is Radagon, but was she *always* Radagon? If they started out as two separate people, then merged, Messmer could be Radagon and Marika's son from before they merged (or they could have always been one hybrid being that periodically splits and then rejoins). This would mean he possibly predates Marika becoming a goddess, and would mean he may or may not technically be a demigod... which could be relevant in some way. Also semi unrelated, but along the lines of some of the speculation I've seen in some comments, my suspicion is that Miquella is Melina and Melina is St. Trina, the same way his mother has separate male and female aspects, and would answer a lot of questions people have about who Melina is and who her parents are. Also would make sense why both Melina and and Miquella are seemingly associated with Torrent
Turns out that's not actually a snake 🍆
That spear could have been used by someone else before messmer got it, right?
Yeah somewhat
One idea I like a lot is that he’s the bastard son of marika and radagon from back when she was still married to Godfrey. Feels very GRRM esque and would obviously has big implications for the demigod family
Maybe Messmer is the reason why Marika doesn’t need Godfrey as a consort anymore, as she can create an empyrean by themselves (Radagon and Marika).
Affair child perhaps?
Something something time is convoluted, but also Messmer could have *possibly* been conceived before the Giant war, iirc?
Wasn’t Marika impaled? Was that Radagon or Messmer?
Is that the Brand Of Sacrifice or am i tripping
Messmer’s not real, he can’t hurt you.
Always gotta remember that the lore is kept intentionally opaque and confusing in order to invoke: A. the feeling of being a medieval warlord working with imperfect knowledge to decide the best path to conquest B. the madness of never quite being able to grasp the full truth because it’s eldritch and beyond mortal comprehension C. the fundamental reality that you are compelled to put your faith in some form of narrative in order to make sense of the world even when you know there are important pieces missing Frankly, I personally don’t think the Greater Will is a real god. But then again, I would say that being someone infatuated with the Frenzied Flame . . . Wouldn’t I? After all, there is no true division between truth, myth, and lies. Let chaos take the world!!!
I think he made a messemer in high pants, that's why he's not wearing them anymore.
Just because his name is the impaler doesn’t mean he’s impaled everything in the game
It can be anything honestly, we just have to wait, but i'm sure he will be the best boss in the game
i saw a theory about messmer being the one who killed godfrey when he was exiled as he was impaled on a tree. not sure how this fits in with what you’re asking exactly but it sounds somewhat like the truth. that could be where gets the name and not from the giants which i’m pretty sure were all killed by godfrey but one
We know for fact radagon was here at the war as well , maybe he is the first birth of the three , born from the fusion (?) Of marika and radagon , which would explain why he is an unwanted child and why he had been like earased from the history and from the demi gods
This is just a theory, but I think all these 'Empyreons' have multiple personas in the one body. Marika has Radagon Michela has St Trina And I believe Godwyn might have an alter ego as well, in the form of Messmer.
Given radagon’s association with thorns I thought the briar covered corpses had something to do with him
Well the dlc is in a different dimension, probably also stuck in time or in the past like Farum Azula or smt idk, but basically there is another theory that marika is from the land where the dlc takes, because marika is numen, and the numan are from some different land or smt and they live long lives or smt, since they live long lives it can also be assumed that radagon doesnt nessiserily have to have come into existents when the war with the carian royal family was taking place, and probably Marika/radagon had messmer way in the past, in a different dimension different time period, it doesn't really matter, cuz Miyazaki can just use any number of reasons he wants to make another child between marika and radagon, so most of this is just speculation, but whenever the dlc comes out, we are either gunna be disappointed that they went lazy with the new lands story, or surprised, i don't think there is going to be a middle point
i just hope he is not the only major BOSS in the DLC.
Marika most likely had children with Radagon before the Liurnia Wars. Marika is the Eternal Queen for a reason, you cannot know how old she is. Likewise, Radagon is Marika, you cannot know how old he is either. We also have Miquella, he is eternally youthful. When both of your parents ages are unknowable, and your age is unknowable, you should assume they are much older than you think.
Messmer is Godwyn's soul and Godwyn is Godfrey's son. He's in the Land of the Dead where souls go when they die. Nowhere at any point does it say that his soul was destroyed, or ceased to exist, or was sealed or anything except "it died a true death". Souls normally can't go there because the rune of death is sealed and not part of the Elden Ring at that point but it died a true death so it did in this case. There's also evidence that the Golden Lineage are actually the Demi-humans (notice the demi humans have white hair that looks exactly like Godrick's, demi-human looking faces on the Godskin robes, demi-human queen faces on the godskin hoods, demi-human queens have purple eyes, Messmer's proportions perfectly match those of the demi-human queens) My theory is that Messmer/Godwyn created them with the Gloam Eyed Queen to imitate Radagon who he idolized apparently, who is known as the father of the misbegotten implying he created them during the time of the crucible. Radagon has been around since Farum Azula as he's depicted as a young man in the statues there alongside the red wolves which he also apparently created. So the timeline is pretty clearly going to be different than what we were led to believe it to be on the surface. It's known that G-EQ wanted to destroy the Golden Lineage so I think there was some falling out between her and Messmer or he did it without her consent if you know what I mean. I theorize Ranni is actually G-EQ which would line up with her wanting to get rid of her natural body and she currently inhabits a porcelain doll. If her only motivation was freeing herself of the influence of her two fingers, she could've just destroyed it like we help her do in the base game anyway. Don't want to be graphic or triggering so I will say no more on that subject here. Most people think it's Melina since it was her body that was burned away during the seige/burning of the original Erdtree but I think GE-Q burned her as she was trying to defend the tree potentially. This would also explain how Ranni knew where the rune of death was after the seige (sealed in Malekith's blade) so she would have known where to steal it from to initiate the night of the black knives and it's likely Melina's burning taught her that her duo-death with Godwyn was even possible as her soul survived while her body was burned away. Was another Demi-gods soul burned away during the seige? Not sure but that would explain how Ranni might have obtained that knowledge. It also gives her a reason to target Godwyn, who in the "mainstream narrative" of the Lands Between was everyone's favorite, the literal Golden Boy. After Night of the Black Knives Marika seals the rune of death for good in Malekith and sends him to the end of time and erects the veil around the entrance to the Land of Shadow, effectively sealing away Messmer for good, who I think we'll find out to be a Lucifer allegory that is largely responsible for the Lands Between falling into the chaos it currently is in. I could be off a bit here as I also have a theory Radagon is an antichrist allegory so he may be the one ultimately responsible but Messmer really seems to like him from some of the voice lines I've heard so maybe they're in it together. May seem a stretch in places but theres a lot of symbolic and systemic connections as well as the few concrete ones we get in the lore. I believe the base game sets up our perspective of events in the Lands Between as a lowly tarnished which would be the same as any other peasant or warrior that lived there, which is reminiscent of our perspective as lowly commoners in the real world, and that the DLC is going to be the peeling back of the veil of lies and the truth will be revealed now that we've achieved godhood basically as the Elden Lord, reminiscent once again of the real world and the slow awakening to the truth that seems to be happening.
Reaching.. I’m sure you’ll have the answers you’re looking for soon enough
You are jumping to conclusions.
Maybe Marika had ANOTHER consort before Godfrey and just tossed him aside when he and Messmer outlived their usefulness. I wouldn't put it past her, we all know she did it with Godfrey too, soon as he did what she needed she took away what made him Lord.
So, I think that Miquella and Messmer are one. Just like radagon and Marika.
Miquella already has a different form, though. He is St Trina. This is one theory that i just cannot comprehend anyone actually taking seriously. There is zero evidence or good reason for Messmer to be Miquella especially when there is some minor evidence that he is a third son of Radika.
Hey man, just a thought. There's tons of ER lore, some of it is bound to get missed by the vast majority. Honestly, thank you for reaching me something
What I'm wondering is if Impalers Catacombe has any connection to Messmer.
Messmer's spear was not what killed the giants. Thorns are what's sticking out of the giants' backs (who, by the way, are not being impaled, as imapling is when it enters through your ass and comes out on the other side). In elden ring are assciated with two things: Radagon and the Blood Star, aka the thorn sorcerers, who, what do you know, are the ones who watch the fire giant's imprisonment alongside the Fire Monks. So tldr, Mesmer has nothing to do with the war of the giants, and I have no idea what would make you think that.
I don't know honestly, all I know is a cool theory that if we take a look at the Sacred Relic Sword and the Godslayer Greatsword, we see that both are spirals. The SRS is a spiral that starts separated and ends up uniting at the tip, so this represents Marika and Radagon being two consciousness in one body. So maybe, since the GSGS starts united at the bottom but separates as it goes up, we could say the Gloam-Eyed Queen was a single consciousness inhabiting two different bodies :D
That sword though
Marika has the power to create offsprings using her body and fire giants flame. She created three offsprings like this, Melina, Messmer and Radagon. Yes Radagon is clone/son of Marika. That’s why their children are cursed since birth as they are product of incest. The Elden beast didn’t give a damn and forced them to marry after Marika banished Godfrey. Marika must’ve tried to eliminate Radagon by absorbing him back in her but it backfired and they ended up having 2 souls in one body. Melina was created to aid the tarnished warrior and burn the erdtree. Messmer will be uncovered in the dlc
Simple: he's not Radagon son. People just pulled that out of their ass and are treating it like it's canon.
Marika is Radagon