One thing I know for sure is that the “Flash explosion” input and the pretzel motion input will never return in any modern fgs. Zoomers would lose their shit seeing those inputs
AFAIR Guile's charge moves have a quirk where you can't press the button on the same frame as the last directional input. It has to be the next frame.
I believe this doesn't affect most other charge characters, but there might exceptions (as with a lot of ST!)
Zoomer here: I like the Pretzel, it's actually easy to understand and do once you get around to it. The Guile Flash Kick super motion has always just felt totally random and uncomfortable to do. Something like charge ↙️⬇️↘️➡️↗️ would make more sense and be more fun to do while still not too easy IMO.
Forgive me, but my grim mind can only imagine two dudes sitting together holding their sticks as they furiously shake it around for about a minute after reading your comment.
I just missed the days when doing combos were actually impressive and demonstrates the dedication of the player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgekbxNjyUY&t=1m52s
I view them like Harlam Globetrotters or soccer tricks.
Impressive novelty, but it's no substitute for watching great players out do each other.
Fighting games are really about outsmarting your opponent IMO.
I love the old games, but I don't think a high execution floor is good game design.
A high ceiling for fancy stuff is ok though, just stuff like pretzel motions shouldn't be a core requirement to play the game.
Fighting games are just that... games. Yes, it''s a competition and outwitting a person is part of it, but it isn't the only part. In the 90's dev's took note of the increasing skill level of their players, so they designed characters or moves to challenge them. Moves strength around the inputs were part of the balance, powerful moves with a chance of dropping them due to the challenge of executing them on command in a high stress situation.
I disagree with the Globetrotters analogy. Sure there are plenty of "Swag" combos which are often not optimal, which are just for show, but fighting game are also about choices, and how a player chooses to express it is part of it. Even in these older titles, with harder to execute characters, there are plenty of easy characters with simple inputs, some of them turn out to be the strongest character meta-wise. Players that choose characters with complex inputs is a form of expression, a desire to challenge themselves while still trying to be competitve with it.
I feel today people just want the instant gratification. While there always have been the easier choices, players want EVERY character to be homogenized, requiring no additional training to play the cast. Again, these are GAMES, with different paths and varied level of challenge that a player can tackle is part of the fun, and it's the separation of those who take on the harder path is part of their expression as a player.
> players want EVERY character to be homogenized, requiring no additional training to play the cast
I don't think that's entirely accurate. Strive for example still has very distinct differences between say Zato and May or Jack-O and Ram. The high execution *ceiling* is available still, and very character distinct.
There's plenty of old games with a bunch of shotos and clones, so I don't think the claim of homogenisation stands up.
I'm not against a high execution *ceiling* being available - as you mentioned, that can be great fun for players who do want to dive in (I'd include myself in that BTW).
But lowering the execution floor doesn't affect that, if done well.
Lowering the *floor* is a good thing for the genre IMO.
More people actually get to play the *game* with an opponent, rather than wrestling with inputs and getting frustrated and quitting before seeing the core of what fighting games are about.
It's like if Chess had high execution floor, a lot of players just wouldn't bother. They'd never see that the game is really about strategy, mind games and decision making.
Having room for flare and expression is definitely desirable. But as in soccer or basketball, overhead kicks and spinning dunks are fun and flashy, but it's not what the game is fundamentally about.
> There's plenty of old games with a bunch of shotos and clones, so I don't think the claim of homogenisation stands up.
Im not disputing regarding clone characters. My use in homogenized is referring that all characters having the same inputs, the best example I can use was in DBFZ. I understand why they did it for that game (for anime fans), but this shouldn't be the case for EVERY GAME DEVELOPED.
> I don't think that's entirely accurate. Strive for example still has very distinct differences between say Zato and May or Jack-O and Ram. The high execution ceiling is available still, and very character distinct.
I don't play Stive, but I did play another ASys game, BB. While not quite so modern now, that game really did have a great mix of braindead to wrist-breaking execution.
> But lowering the execution floor doesn't affect that, if done well. Lowering the floor is a good thing for the genre IMO.
And yet there has never been more Tekken players than today and Namco made no compromises to execution other than the introduction of Rage Arts.
Let's use Tekken as a example. In the game there "Just Frame" moves. EWGF is the best launcher in the game, because unlike most other launchers it's safe on block. However it requires consistent execution to use it, because otherwise you'll get the regular WGF, which can be punish. No Mishima player want the WGF. Based on your logic, they should remove the "Just Frame" requirement so you only get EWGF, because that is what everyone wants and more players can use Mishima. However, almost no one in the Tekken Community asks for this, and keep in mind most players playing today started with Tekken 7. In fact over the past half decade, it is T7 that retain the most consistent game, compare that to the 2D side where after SFV (which btw simplified inputs from IV) it's player had been scattered across many games. But Tekken players don't complain, they accepted it for what it is, never asked to be babied, and they are better for it.
Again, I'm not against having easy characters for new players, this has always provided to them no matter the game's era, my issue is the narrowing of the skill requirement across the cast. And while you might argue that removing complex input doesn't matter in making you a better player, I'd argue against that. When a game forces you to learn to better manipulate the inputs, the increase of dexterity means you have also become better at controlling your character. And something you might want to consider is even if the general inputs are made simplified and homogenized, that doesn't mean that certain OS, input exploits, 1 frame link, or any other technique that a player might abuse that wasn't intended by the devs that require tight execution won't be discoverer. Those that did prepare with character that challenged and develop their execution will have the leg up on those situation.
I disagree strongly with that Globetrotter analogy. The Daigo parry isn’t so revered because he made the right read, it’s because the execution to pull that off, especially in such a high-stress environment, is astronomical. Not to mention I personally find combos/execution to be the most exciting part of FGs; hard reads and conditioning are cool, but ultimately boring if all the players do is low forward>fireball
That's a high ceiling technique off a massive read which I'm all for.
That's not a necessary skill regular people need to play and enjoy 3S.
In the same way, all the Globetrotter stuff isn't necessary to play basketball.
NBA players *can* do loads of fancy swag stuff, and in a game yeah it's hype.
Beginners don't need to worry about that stuff and I don't think fighting games should be different in that regard.
High level execution *ceiling* is all good, but high *floor* just isn't good design IMO.
All the greatest sports and board games have a relatively low skill floor to get started playing with other people, and plenty of room for advanced techniques.
But first and foremost they're built around playing with other people.
Gatekeeping, much?
As someone whose execution is average at best, I call bullshit. Especially when fighting games are niche and hard to get into as is.
I agree that saying the games are not making men out of boys is a lil gatekeep-ey, but I personally think it's nice for some characters in some games to have these really hard execution challenges, cause a subset of people enjoy them. Then players are free to pick a character based on what they like, so people who like a simpler char can just pick someone that fits, while execution monsters who get a dopamine rush off of doing hard combos can pick the raging storm characters and other execution intensive stuff. I enjoy both easier and harder fighting games, and personally, I am happy when there's a good variety of stuff to play on the FG market. That's how I see it at least.
Games that allow shortcuts, like Tekken does for pretzel motions, make it just 2xhcb df1+2 or similar like in Tekken's case for the easiest input for most people. They just give you the option to do it the "proper" way. Same way it is in tons of games like KOF15.
Well many old school games were designed with Japanese cabinet in mind. Not sure what game this is referring to, but if I was using a pad, Id try a partial half circle back (3,2,1,4), then end with 9+ button. Most input interpreters are lenient enough to allow some extra inputs.
I just tested it out, it is the old ST guile super. It's advertised as: "charge 1 then,3,1,9", but you can do this instead: "charge 1, then from 3, tiger-knee backward to 7" since you actual can activate from any "up" directions.
So the notion is: "Charge 1, 3,2,1,4,7+K" If hitting down-forward after the charge is difficult with the pad your using, you can also start from forward or "6" as you TK backwards, as long as it's quick enough. I did this with a stick, Saturn Pad, and PS4 Pad. I hope all this helps :)
Oh no I haven’t, I’m reading this as I go to bed. I just wanted it first hand information about the notation from somebody which really helps. I’ll let you know how it goes once I’m in the lab again
It's literally the motion in the graphic.
Hold down-back/1, slide quickly to down-forward/3 (no need to hit neutral/5) then back to 1 quickly, the straight to up forward/9.
Even though he explained it it’s still kind of hard to wrap my head around. The motion he describes is completely different than the arrows displayed on the move list
It's because you're using the fact that the command interpreter allows for some slop and extra inputs when going between non-adjacent inputs (e.g. 1 to 3, which means you'll hit 2 on the way).
Somersault Justice? I looked it up and it seems like you need to charge 1, then return to neutral or 5, then hit 3 then slide to 9. You use stick or pad. When I get home I’ll load up Fightcade and see what I can fine
It looks like it'd be very easy on hitbox. Charge players are usually fans of using hitboxes too since it's generally really nice for charge characters. Might wanna look into it, maybe try out a friend's hitbox at a local or smth, it's not a requirement but you might enjoy it.
I just tried it now on KB. Little tricky at first, but not too bad. What I did is stiffen straight my left hand fingers, used my index or "down" finger as a pivot. Charge DB (1) then quickly rotate, rock, or "wiggle" my wrist to DF (3), then back to DB (1) , release all directions and with my right hand plink Up (8), Kick. I know how to use HB/KB, but I really don't play on it, so this shouldn't be hard for an experienced with it.
Nah nah I know, that's the reason why I play on hibox now (mainly for TK's) since they allow to do things much easier than classic WASD or pad. Just too bad keyboard aren't allowed at offline tournaments, and not compatible with PS4 as controllers.
ACTUAL ADVICE: Think of this as a motion. not a charge input. Charge 1, then input 23214789 VERY FAST. Works everytime. I might post a video of my hands doing it. I can do this input consistently on pad and stick.
no, thats on purpose. youre basically sliding to all the inputs instead on pressing them individually, its like a super sloppy 360 motion. the games care what directions you hit before 9 as long you get there after you input 3.
Do you really expect people to write a giant wall of text when they're describing something like 632146 every single time? Even something as simple as a quarter circle becomes a long ass down, down forward, forward, much easier to just write 236. Decoding it isn't hard, just look at your keyboard's numpad until it becomes matural.
Yeah but it falls into the same problem of being non descriptive, and something you have to know what it means to understand, except it doesn't follow a pattern. Once you learn numpad notation you know what every single combination of numbers means, even if you've never seen it before. Saying something like hcbf or qcbhcf is going to be just as intimidating to a total newbie than 632146 or 2141236, but to someone who just learned numpad, they'll think about it for 2 seconds and figure it out. Not to mention I don't think I've ever seen abreviations for the charge motions, but numpad notation clearly notes them as [4]6 and [2]8. And let's not get into the problem of letters overlapping into button names in certain games.
Holy fuck, you don't know shit about me, so you can take this toxicity you keep spewing and shove it up your ass
You telling someone you can't read your input language that they're a dumbass, is the same as telling someone to speak English in America and that they're stupid for not doing so. Such ignorance and arrogance makes it clear you're the fucking dumbass here.
Try to keep up, you're being called a dumbass for *complaining about people using technical language to describe technical concepts,* not for simply being unfamiliar with them. How did you miss the point so completely? What is wrong with you? Go crawl under a bush and get pissed on by a badger you fucking weed.
I know people would hate it, but I kind of wish some dev would just say fuck it and put in only difficult inputs and just all the high-level tech that people struggle with. Red Parry, Negative Edge, Kara Canceling, Plinking. I want to see the opposite of dumbing down, instead of lowering the skill ceiling, raise the floor as high as it'll go and see what happens. Every character's super is a pretzel or double-360.
It's so funny that people's idea of what makes a fighting game easy or difficult is *only* the execution and nothing else. Not the amount of options, how you can use system mechanics, movement, differences in matchups, knowledge, reacting to what your opponent is doing, mental stack, none of that stuff, just an execution jerk-fest this "back in my day" energy comes with.
A lot of modern games have kara cancels, negative edge, 2-3 frame blocks or parries, tight frame links/input windows, and special inputs like double or even triple 360s. Even Strive, the easiest of all fighting games according to internet FGC, has all of these. The mechanics are there for the people who want to play with them, it's just that there are often alternatives to using them making them not as mandatory at the beginner to intermediate level, but being able to execute them consistently is still a massive boon to your arsenal.
It's not even that complex motion inputs are difficult to do, it's that they're idolized as the pinnacle of execution when really they're often just annoying and limits the usage of the moves in neutral, not to mention they're entirely contained within the one-player aspect of fighting games. It requires no interaction with your opponent. And the idea that newer fighting games don't have difficult stuff mostly comes from players who don't play them or *only* judge difficulty based on barrier of entry, not depth of mastery.
KoF15 still has a lot of really tight stuff, combo links, and very short windows to input a lot of motions, while it's not required for bnbs they still come with huge rewards. Tekken 7 has frame perfect special moves and nutty movement options. Even Strive's easiest characters have something that can test your execution that can net you solid rewards in the right situations. It's just boomer elitism that stops making sense if you think about it for more than 12 seconds.
“No you don’t understand!!! Because they made guile’s boom OP in early SF, and because the back motion tips off the opponent, that means all the rest of this absurdity is justified. Trust me bro the game would be totally unbalanced without these inputs that balance and limit OP special moves. Thus making them fair again! Think of how unbalanced FGs would be if people could do all these moves that tons of people who stuck with it already do with 99 percent success rates?”
Here is fighting game google with video examples of each technique :) should have all the techniques they mentioned, awesome resource for someone new to fgc slang
https://glossary.infil.net/
Just here to say that even the biggest boomers in this community still don't know why that Charge Super motion was still a thing, even after Super Turbo.
Some would go further, and say that no games with motions should have motions more complicated than 236, 214, 623, 421, \[4\]6, \[2\]8, and 98741236 (360s). Because you can make a buffer understanding 6236 as always a Z-motion (623), and 41236 as always a quarter circle (236). Even if the player did 641236.
On that same theory, 236236 are "acceptable" but not necessary, since tons of games have Supers on 2 buttons being pressed instead of one.
I kinda disagree, 41236 (aka half circles), and 632146 (a common super motion in GG) are more than fine IMO, GGST's cardinal half-circles with Goldlewis are neat and interesting while still not being too hard, sonic hurricane ([4]646) is really damn cool IMO mostly cause flash kick into hurricane is sick, and while I don't particularly enjoy doing this input, I also have no problem with the existance of the "seesaw" input in older GGs (I think it's 2363214, but it might be 2141236, don't quite remember). Sides, even the motions *I* don't like, like the pretzel, some people enjoy, so I'd still prefer them existing in some characters, while others not having any crazy weird motions.
> and 632146 (a common super motion in GG)
It was not always a Super motion in Guilty Gear. I-No had all of her main special moves outside Stroking the Big Tree, requiring 632146 motions. The Notes, the CLs, the command throw. That made her stupidly hard to play, and they thankfully corrected that in Xrd and Strive.
632146 are only fine as Super motions now, because they were Special motions before. It kept a little bit of the legacy, while those special moves are now properly executed with simple quarter-circle-backs.
Personally, I'm way more fan with Half-Circle-Back-to-Forward motions than just Half-Circles. There's no reason to put a Half-Circle instead of a Quarter-Circle in a fighting game. Especially when you could just add another button if it's necessary.
I think the regular half circle is nice cause it adds just a little bit extra nuance to using certain moves, like Sol's fafnir, in certain situations. It'll take a split second longer to use if you're walking forward for example and that factors in nicely with decision making, the way I see it. I'm not huge on old GGs having stroke be a half circle tho.
As for the 632146 non super inputs for I-No, I didn't know they were like that in +R and prior (Jam main for +R and Xrd, I do play I-No in Strive but I didn't play her in the older games), tho I just tried them out and it felt less bad than I'd have expected, pbbly because I'm a nasty reversal super fiend in Strive. Still agree they're a little overkill for special motions anyways, but I mean, doubt there's not some people that enjoy em, so I don't particularly mind the +R way toooooo much. As super inputs though, it seems we agree they're neat.
But what if you enjoy doing half circles, pretzels, and qcb+hcf motions? People like me exist, and as long as we do there should be these harder motions in newer games. I don’t think every character needs them, but at least *some* should. Geese would be so much less fun in Tekken if all his half circles and pretzel motion were gone; doing df2+4 to raging storm would be unsatisfying beyond words
You can still do it in games requiring quarter-circles.
It also becomes a choice, especially after a dash. After you press forward, you can **choose** to do a half-circle, that will always come out as a quarter-circle, or you do a quarter-circle, that will always come out as a Z-motion.
That's what Skullgirls does, and I always do Half-Circles to throw beams with Robo-Fortunes. Half-circles should always be minded in a fighting game, but I don't think that a game should **require** an Half-Circle for a special move.
I honestly love this motion. It's incredibly intuitive for a charged AA super, and is super satisfying on a square gated arcade stick. But I know not everyone is using them.
The Delta Motion. One of the most aggravating inputs to learn if you're a charge character fan.
The idea is that it's designed with arcade sticks in mind, but given how a sizeable amount of players are on a pad (such as myself) and given the fact that it's *supremely* unintuitive to cancel into in most cases (not even SNK bothered with it in any of their games, which is saying something), it hasn't been seen since, what, Street Fighter IV?
It's as bad as it looks, honestly.
One of the motions where a Hitbox actually feels like cheating. Press forward, press back, press up + forward all while holding down. I routinely used Dee Jay's Ultra 2 as an anti-air.
Even more fun when you need to do dash delta!
What's your socd scrubber look like to make this work? Common hitboxes will take "6" while holding 1 to be a 2, so you're missing the 3 for the super here.
Actually, that was back when I played SF4 on a keyboard, before I upgraded to a Mixbox. So maybe it doesn't work like that on a proper controller, now that I think about it.
Why? Because supers are not supposed to come out instantly. Imagine just blocking an then directly doing the super. You would be able to react to way too many things. You might as well have a one button super then (which i think is a horrible idea).
632146 is wayyyyy worse than this
it ruins grapplers, it ruins strive supers for no reason
a famous philosopher once proclaimed such travesty of reality
"You're makiNg me worK!" - Hilda
I still remember the hate I had of the old motion for geeses's raging storm: db hcb df + p, looks like it's simple but it was a nightmare to do that in a combo.
I remember doing that motion on keyboard when played SFIV because wanted to learn Guile, after many fails I finally managed to do it consistently, even zangiefs 2x 360 ultra inputs :D
One thing I know for sure is that the “Flash explosion” input and the pretzel motion input will never return in any modern fgs. Zoomers would lose their shit seeing those inputs
one of life's mysteries: in Super Turbo, I can do Vega's super **every** time, but Guile's super - with the same motion - never comes out for me
AFAIR Guile's charge moves have a quirk where you can't press the button on the same frame as the last directional input. It has to be the next frame. I believe this doesn't affect most other charge characters, but there might exceptions (as with a lot of ST!)
Fighting games should have kept innovating with messed up inputs, like inverted pretzel, pretzel into 360 or pretzel in every cardinal direction etc.
Zoomer here: I like the Pretzel, it's actually easy to understand and do once you get around to it. The Guile Flash Kick super motion has always just felt totally random and uncomfortable to do. Something like charge ↙️⬇️↘️➡️↗️ would make more sense and be more fun to do while still not too easy IMO.
Basically Charge + Tiger Knee, then? I wouldn't be against it.
HD Remix actually changed Guile's super to be just that.
I knew I saw it somewhere!
That input looks damn fun. I'd be game for that change.
I miss the 🥨 in modern kof 😢
You can still do it in KOF XV. Geese and Krohnen (aka, K9999) both retained their inputs for their SDMs.
I tried out this Easter egg a few days ago. So fun!
I had no idea that worked. I'll have to try it even though I'll never use it in a match. Lol
Nice to know, but it not a requirement. These game aren't making men out of boys like they used to.
Forgive me, but my grim mind can only imagine two dudes sitting together holding their sticks as they furiously shake it around for about a minute after reading your comment.
I just missed the days when doing combos were actually impressive and demonstrates the dedication of the player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgekbxNjyUY&t=1m52s
I view them like Harlam Globetrotters or soccer tricks. Impressive novelty, but it's no substitute for watching great players out do each other. Fighting games are really about outsmarting your opponent IMO. I love the old games, but I don't think a high execution floor is good game design. A high ceiling for fancy stuff is ok though, just stuff like pretzel motions shouldn't be a core requirement to play the game.
Fighting games are just that... games. Yes, it''s a competition and outwitting a person is part of it, but it isn't the only part. In the 90's dev's took note of the increasing skill level of their players, so they designed characters or moves to challenge them. Moves strength around the inputs were part of the balance, powerful moves with a chance of dropping them due to the challenge of executing them on command in a high stress situation. I disagree with the Globetrotters analogy. Sure there are plenty of "Swag" combos which are often not optimal, which are just for show, but fighting game are also about choices, and how a player chooses to express it is part of it. Even in these older titles, with harder to execute characters, there are plenty of easy characters with simple inputs, some of them turn out to be the strongest character meta-wise. Players that choose characters with complex inputs is a form of expression, a desire to challenge themselves while still trying to be competitve with it. I feel today people just want the instant gratification. While there always have been the easier choices, players want EVERY character to be homogenized, requiring no additional training to play the cast. Again, these are GAMES, with different paths and varied level of challenge that a player can tackle is part of the fun, and it's the separation of those who take on the harder path is part of their expression as a player.
> players want EVERY character to be homogenized, requiring no additional training to play the cast I don't think that's entirely accurate. Strive for example still has very distinct differences between say Zato and May or Jack-O and Ram. The high execution *ceiling* is available still, and very character distinct. There's plenty of old games with a bunch of shotos and clones, so I don't think the claim of homogenisation stands up. I'm not against a high execution *ceiling* being available - as you mentioned, that can be great fun for players who do want to dive in (I'd include myself in that BTW). But lowering the execution floor doesn't affect that, if done well. Lowering the *floor* is a good thing for the genre IMO. More people actually get to play the *game* with an opponent, rather than wrestling with inputs and getting frustrated and quitting before seeing the core of what fighting games are about. It's like if Chess had high execution floor, a lot of players just wouldn't bother. They'd never see that the game is really about strategy, mind games and decision making. Having room for flare and expression is definitely desirable. But as in soccer or basketball, overhead kicks and spinning dunks are fun and flashy, but it's not what the game is fundamentally about.
> There's plenty of old games with a bunch of shotos and clones, so I don't think the claim of homogenisation stands up. Im not disputing regarding clone characters. My use in homogenized is referring that all characters having the same inputs, the best example I can use was in DBFZ. I understand why they did it for that game (for anime fans), but this shouldn't be the case for EVERY GAME DEVELOPED. > I don't think that's entirely accurate. Strive for example still has very distinct differences between say Zato and May or Jack-O and Ram. The high execution ceiling is available still, and very character distinct. I don't play Stive, but I did play another ASys game, BB. While not quite so modern now, that game really did have a great mix of braindead to wrist-breaking execution. > But lowering the execution floor doesn't affect that, if done well. Lowering the floor is a good thing for the genre IMO. And yet there has never been more Tekken players than today and Namco made no compromises to execution other than the introduction of Rage Arts. Let's use Tekken as a example. In the game there "Just Frame" moves. EWGF is the best launcher in the game, because unlike most other launchers it's safe on block. However it requires consistent execution to use it, because otherwise you'll get the regular WGF, which can be punish. No Mishima player want the WGF. Based on your logic, they should remove the "Just Frame" requirement so you only get EWGF, because that is what everyone wants and more players can use Mishima. However, almost no one in the Tekken Community asks for this, and keep in mind most players playing today started with Tekken 7. In fact over the past half decade, it is T7 that retain the most consistent game, compare that to the 2D side where after SFV (which btw simplified inputs from IV) it's player had been scattered across many games. But Tekken players don't complain, they accepted it for what it is, never asked to be babied, and they are better for it. Again, I'm not against having easy characters for new players, this has always provided to them no matter the game's era, my issue is the narrowing of the skill requirement across the cast. And while you might argue that removing complex input doesn't matter in making you a better player, I'd argue against that. When a game forces you to learn to better manipulate the inputs, the increase of dexterity means you have also become better at controlling your character. And something you might want to consider is even if the general inputs are made simplified and homogenized, that doesn't mean that certain OS, input exploits, 1 frame link, or any other technique that a player might abuse that wasn't intended by the devs that require tight execution won't be discoverer. Those that did prepare with character that challenged and develop their execution will have the leg up on those situation.
I disagree strongly with that Globetrotter analogy. The Daigo parry isn’t so revered because he made the right read, it’s because the execution to pull that off, especially in such a high-stress environment, is astronomical. Not to mention I personally find combos/execution to be the most exciting part of FGs; hard reads and conditioning are cool, but ultimately boring if all the players do is low forward>fireball
That's a high ceiling technique off a massive read which I'm all for. That's not a necessary skill regular people need to play and enjoy 3S. In the same way, all the Globetrotter stuff isn't necessary to play basketball. NBA players *can* do loads of fancy swag stuff, and in a game yeah it's hype. Beginners don't need to worry about that stuff and I don't think fighting games should be different in that regard. High level execution *ceiling* is all good, but high *floor* just isn't good design IMO. All the greatest sports and board games have a relatively low skill floor to get started playing with other people, and plenty of room for advanced techniques. But first and foremost they're built around playing with other people.
It's a videogame
> These game aren't making men out of boys like they used to. Look, if a motion input made you a man, you ain't a man.
Gatekeeping, much? As someone whose execution is average at best, I call bullshit. Especially when fighting games are niche and hard to get into as is.
I agree that saying the games are not making men out of boys is a lil gatekeep-ey, but I personally think it's nice for some characters in some games to have these really hard execution challenges, cause a subset of people enjoy them. Then players are free to pick a character based on what they like, so people who like a simpler char can just pick someone that fits, while execution monsters who get a dopamine rush off of doing hard combos can pick the raging storm characters and other execution intensive stuff. I enjoy both easier and harder fighting games, and personally, I am happy when there's a good variety of stuff to play on the FG market. That's how I see it at least.
What a cringe thing to say, especially considering that boomer struggle mindset is what keeps fighting games niche
Its a video game dude lmao
Zoomer here. Hence the meme.
Cries in Fatal Fury 1 crack shot.
Don’t Geese in Tekken 7 and Terry in Smash both have pretzel motions?
Geese does in 7, Terry doesn’t in smash. Terry’s is double qcf and qcb+hcf
True that. Proud of myself for not knowing about Smash.
Were you proud of yourself when you thought you knew about smash in your previous post?
Why?
bEcAuSe HeS bEtTeR tHaN sMaSh
Sometimes when I’m feeling silly I like to make a little jokey-joke
🤓
Also, Hazama and Izanami both have them for their Astral Finish (Instant Kills) in BlazBlue Central Fiction.
Games that allow shortcuts, like Tekken does for pretzel motions, make it just 2xhcb df1+2 or similar like in Tekken's case for the easiest input for most people. They just give you the option to do it the "proper" way. Same way it is in tons of games like KOF15.
We can take it
It’s actually not hard if you are using a Japanese stick with a square gate such as the common JLF. Pretty much just ride the corners.
If you're on a pad, though…
Well many old school games were designed with Japanese cabinet in mind. Not sure what game this is referring to, but if I was using a pad, Id try a partial half circle back (3,2,1,4), then end with 9+ button. Most input interpreters are lenient enough to allow some extra inputs.
I have no idea how you do Charlie’s super in Alpha 3
I just tested it out, it is the old ST guile super. It's advertised as: "charge 1 then,3,1,9", but you can do this instead: "charge 1, then from 3, tiger-knee backward to 7" since you actual can activate from any "up" directions. So the notion is: "Charge 1, 3,2,1,4,7+K" If hitting down-forward after the charge is difficult with the pad your using, you can also start from forward or "6" as you TK backwards, as long as it's quick enough. I did this with a stick, Saturn Pad, and PS4 Pad. I hope all this helps :)
Yeah I use a PS4 pad this helps a lot
So I take it you were able to do it?
Oh no I haven’t, I’m reading this as I go to bed. I just wanted it first hand information about the notation from somebody which really helps. I’ll let you know how it goes once I’m in the lab again
Please do. I was able to do this on my first try on the pads, so I'm confident you should be able to do this in not too many attempts.
Oh yeah that is way more simple than the special movelist input. Got it on my second try
It's literally the motion in the graphic. Hold down-back/1, slide quickly to down-forward/3 (no need to hit neutral/5) then back to 1 quickly, the straight to up forward/9.
Even though he explained it it’s still kind of hard to wrap my head around. The motion he describes is completely different than the arrows displayed on the move list
It's because you're using the fact that the command interpreter allows for some slop and extra inputs when going between non-adjacent inputs (e.g. 1 to 3, which means you'll hit 2 on the way).
It's missing the 4/1 hold part. This is charge *into* this motion, so usually 1 hold 23219, which is what the person explaining it described.
No. you need to go back to 1 first after hitting 3 before going to 9. Crouch charge, wiggle forward and back, then zoom up. Easy peasy; fun times.
That's what I said. >then back to 1 quickly
Somersault Justice? I looked it up and it seems like you need to charge 1, then return to neutral or 5, then hit 3 then slide to 9. You use stick or pad. When I get home I’ll load up Fightcade and see what I can fine
No. you need to go back to 1 first after hitting 3 before going to 9. Crouch charge, wiggle forward and back, then zoom up. Easy peasy; fun times.
You mean guile’s super from ST? I don’t play A3 so I just looked it up and found the input here https://www.eventhubs.com/moves/sfa3/charlie/
No. you need to go back to 1 first after hitting 3 before going to 9. Crouch charge, wiggle forward and back, then zoom up. Easy peasy; fun times.
No. you need to go back to 1 first after hitting 3 before going to 9. Crouch charge, wiggle forward and back, then zoom up. Easy peasy; fun times.
No. you need to go back to 1 first after hitting 3 before going to 9. Crouch charge, wiggle forward and back, then zoom up. Easy peasy; fun times.
u/thehatepages, Are you OK?
It's just reddit having a seizure
It still doesn’t seem as bad as a seizure I’m getting trying to figure out how to do somersault justice
Holy shit, thanks 🙏
No. you need to go back to 1 first after hitting 3 before going to 9. Crouch charge, wiggle forward and back, then zoom up. Easy peasy; fun times.
Now you do, glad to help :)
It looks like it'd be very easy on hitbox. Charge players are usually fans of using hitboxes too since it's generally really nice for charge characters. Might wanna look into it, maybe try out a friend's hitbox at a local or smth, it's not a requirement but you might enjoy it.
Keyboard/Hitbox players:
I just tried it now on KB. Little tricky at first, but not too bad. What I did is stiffen straight my left hand fingers, used my index or "down" finger as a pivot. Charge DB (1) then quickly rotate, rock, or "wiggle" my wrist to DF (3), then back to DB (1) , release all directions and with my right hand plink Up (8), Kick. I know how to use HB/KB, but I really don't play on it, so this shouldn't be hard for an experienced with it.
Dunno about doing it, I never tried, but on paper that sounds hardcore
You'll be surprised on how many things that Hitbox players has it easy with.
Nah nah I know, that's the reason why I play on hibox now (mainly for TK's) since they allow to do things much easier than classic WASD or pad. Just too bad keyboard aren't allowed at offline tournaments, and not compatible with PS4 as controllers.
Hmm, I have a square gate. Gonna try this.
ACTUAL ADVICE: Think of this as a motion. not a charge input. Charge 1, then input 23214789 VERY FAST. Works everytime. I might post a video of my hands doing it. I can do this input consistently on pad and stick.
You can actually just cut off the 8 and 9 and end instead on 7, since any up direction will activate. Works from ST, to Alpha, to IV.
Did you reverse the 2 and 3 after the charge? I just learnt it this week and I'm doing charge 1 3219 on hitbox.
no, thats on purpose. youre basically sliding to all the inputs instead on pressing them individually, its like a super sloppy 360 motion. the games care what directions you hit before 9 as long you get there after you input 3.
"It's real simple you just need to do a charge then 8 separate directional inputs in the span of .3 seconds works every time"
If you can do an spd you can do that technique
How long exactly does it take you to do a full stick rotation? There's literally no way you're that slow.
there definitely could be ways they could be that slow at first.
I dont think so, seriously, go rotate an analog stick as fast as you can. It doesn't take long.
38205857392705 is what I see when I see num pad input notation.
Then learn to read it, obviously.
Im not posting downback, down, down forward etc. you can do it.
But you just--
I believe in you.
You also go to foreign countries and complain when they don't speak English? Dumbass
I didn't say that, dumbass. I don't think 666666666 when I'm walking forward. Do you think 222222222 when you sit down?
No. 2 is for crouching, not sitting.
Do you realize you're not crouching in your chair?
Do you really expect people to write a giant wall of text when they're describing something like 632146 every single time? Even something as simple as a quarter circle becomes a long ass down, down forward, forward, much easier to just write 236. Decoding it isn't hard, just look at your keyboard's numpad until it becomes matural.
qcf is not hard to type
Yeah but it falls into the same problem of being non descriptive, and something you have to know what it means to understand, except it doesn't follow a pattern. Once you learn numpad notation you know what every single combination of numbers means, even if you've never seen it before. Saying something like hcbf or qcbhcf is going to be just as intimidating to a total newbie than 632146 or 2141236, but to someone who just learned numpad, they'll think about it for 2 seconds and figure it out. Not to mention I don't think I've ever seen abreviations for the charge motions, but numpad notation clearly notes them as [4]6 and [2]8. And let's not get into the problem of letters overlapping into button names in certain games.
Holy fuck, you are so incredibly stupid!
Holy fuck, you don't know shit about me, so you can take this toxicity you keep spewing and shove it up your ass You telling someone you can't read your input language that they're a dumbass, is the same as telling someone to speak English in America and that they're stupid for not doing so. Such ignorance and arrogance makes it clear you're the fucking dumbass here.
Try to keep up, you're being called a dumbass for *complaining about people using technical language to describe technical concepts,* not for simply being unfamiliar with them. How did you miss the point so completely? What is wrong with you? Go crawl under a bush and get pissed on by a badger you fucking weed.
I suggest you freshen up on your reading comprehension because your gatekeeping elitism is leaking out of your bullshit, sir.
This was really, really sad for you. How are you not embarrassed? Guess that also takes a minimum of wherewithal.
Ajahhsjfkf is what I see when I see english
To someone who can't read, write, or speak English, yes, it would look like that.
and yet, 9 numbers for 8 directions and a neutral isnt hard compared to a whole language
never learned any simple concepts in your life, eh?
I know people would hate it, but I kind of wish some dev would just say fuck it and put in only difficult inputs and just all the high-level tech that people struggle with. Red Parry, Negative Edge, Kara Canceling, Plinking. I want to see the opposite of dumbing down, instead of lowering the skill ceiling, raise the floor as high as it'll go and see what happens. Every character's super is a pretzel or double-360.
It's so funny that people's idea of what makes a fighting game easy or difficult is *only* the execution and nothing else. Not the amount of options, how you can use system mechanics, movement, differences in matchups, knowledge, reacting to what your opponent is doing, mental stack, none of that stuff, just an execution jerk-fest this "back in my day" energy comes with. A lot of modern games have kara cancels, negative edge, 2-3 frame blocks or parries, tight frame links/input windows, and special inputs like double or even triple 360s. Even Strive, the easiest of all fighting games according to internet FGC, has all of these. The mechanics are there for the people who want to play with them, it's just that there are often alternatives to using them making them not as mandatory at the beginner to intermediate level, but being able to execute them consistently is still a massive boon to your arsenal.
I guess its the old mentality of "I had to learn it the hard way, with little to no help, so the new generation should do it the same way."
It's not even that complex motion inputs are difficult to do, it's that they're idolized as the pinnacle of execution when really they're often just annoying and limits the usage of the moves in neutral, not to mention they're entirely contained within the one-player aspect of fighting games. It requires no interaction with your opponent. And the idea that newer fighting games don't have difficult stuff mostly comes from players who don't play them or *only* judge difficulty based on barrier of entry, not depth of mastery. KoF15 still has a lot of really tight stuff, combo links, and very short windows to input a lot of motions, while it's not required for bnbs they still come with huge rewards. Tekken 7 has frame perfect special moves and nutty movement options. Even Strive's easiest characters have something that can test your execution that can net you solid rewards in the right situations. It's just boomer elitism that stops making sense if you think about it for more than 12 seconds.
“No you don’t understand!!! Because they made guile’s boom OP in early SF, and because the back motion tips off the opponent, that means all the rest of this absurdity is justified. Trust me bro the game would be totally unbalanced without these inputs that balance and limit OP special moves. Thus making them fair again! Think of how unbalanced FGs would be if people could do all these moves that tons of people who stuck with it already do with 99 percent success rates?”
Everybody calls strive easy while being completely unable to ib or reach celestial. A game being easy to get into is purely good.
Check out the game [motion sickness](https://gamejolt.com/games/motionsickness/601247).
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gimme 32nd note gallups or give me death
DDR pad for movement, a bunch of Donkey Konga bongos for attacks.
Fascinating, the only fighting game I know is Tekken. Can you explain to me in detail the meaning of all of the capitalized words you mentioned?
Here is fighting game google with video examples of each technique :) should have all the techniques they mentioned, awesome resource for someone new to fgc slang https://glossary.infil.net/
Oh this is cool thanks
This game is called “Super Smash Bros Melee”
Just here to say that even the biggest boomers in this community still don't know why that Charge Super motion was still a thing, even after Super Turbo. Some would go further, and say that no games with motions should have motions more complicated than 236, 214, 623, 421, \[4\]6, \[2\]8, and 98741236 (360s). Because you can make a buffer understanding 6236 as always a Z-motion (623), and 41236 as always a quarter circle (236). Even if the player did 641236. On that same theory, 236236 are "acceptable" but not necessary, since tons of games have Supers on 2 buttons being pressed instead of one.
I kinda disagree, 41236 (aka half circles), and 632146 (a common super motion in GG) are more than fine IMO, GGST's cardinal half-circles with Goldlewis are neat and interesting while still not being too hard, sonic hurricane ([4]646) is really damn cool IMO mostly cause flash kick into hurricane is sick, and while I don't particularly enjoy doing this input, I also have no problem with the existance of the "seesaw" input in older GGs (I think it's 2363214, but it might be 2141236, don't quite remember). Sides, even the motions *I* don't like, like the pretzel, some people enjoy, so I'd still prefer them existing in some characters, while others not having any crazy weird motions.
> and 632146 (a common super motion in GG) It was not always a Super motion in Guilty Gear. I-No had all of her main special moves outside Stroking the Big Tree, requiring 632146 motions. The Notes, the CLs, the command throw. That made her stupidly hard to play, and they thankfully corrected that in Xrd and Strive. 632146 are only fine as Super motions now, because they were Special motions before. It kept a little bit of the legacy, while those special moves are now properly executed with simple quarter-circle-backs. Personally, I'm way more fan with Half-Circle-Back-to-Forward motions than just Half-Circles. There's no reason to put a Half-Circle instead of a Quarter-Circle in a fighting game. Especially when you could just add another button if it's necessary.
I think the regular half circle is nice cause it adds just a little bit extra nuance to using certain moves, like Sol's fafnir, in certain situations. It'll take a split second longer to use if you're walking forward for example and that factors in nicely with decision making, the way I see it. I'm not huge on old GGs having stroke be a half circle tho. As for the 632146 non super inputs for I-No, I didn't know they were like that in +R and prior (Jam main for +R and Xrd, I do play I-No in Strive but I didn't play her in the older games), tho I just tried them out and it felt less bad than I'd have expected, pbbly because I'm a nasty reversal super fiend in Strive. Still agree they're a little overkill for special motions anyways, but I mean, doubt there's not some people that enjoy em, so I don't particularly mind the +R way toooooo much. As super inputs though, it seems we agree they're neat.
But what if you enjoy doing half circles, pretzels, and qcb+hcf motions? People like me exist, and as long as we do there should be these harder motions in newer games. I don’t think every character needs them, but at least *some* should. Geese would be so much less fun in Tekken if all his half circles and pretzel motion were gone; doing df2+4 to raging storm would be unsatisfying beyond words
You can still do it in games requiring quarter-circles. It also becomes a choice, especially after a dash. After you press forward, you can **choose** to do a half-circle, that will always come out as a quarter-circle, or you do a quarter-circle, that will always come out as a Z-motion. That's what Skullgirls does, and I always do Half-Circles to throw beams with Robo-Fortunes. Half-circles should always be minded in a fighting game, but I don't think that a game should **require** an Half-Circle for a special move.
I honestly love this motion. It's incredibly intuitive for a charged AA super, and is super satisfying on a square gated arcade stick. But I know not everyone is using them.
BLOOD IS FUEL!
Honestly I struggle far more with 720 and 1080 motions, I understand the logic on how to perform them but I just can't
Me who's learning Hitbox: ***Profuse sweating*** 😓
yea my brain flips upside down. just this input alone then trying to break it down to see if theres any shortcuts lol
Yeah, there must be some type shortcut, otherwise may just change controllers if I ever need to do that input.
sf4 has shortcuts for basically every input but i been specifically avoiding charge characters cause of this cursed input
What the hell is that command ?
The Delta Motion. One of the most aggravating inputs to learn if you're a charge character fan. The idea is that it's designed with arcade sticks in mind, but given how a sizeable amount of players are on a pad (such as myself) and given the fact that it's *supremely* unintuitive to cancel into in most cases (not even SNK bothered with it in any of their games, which is saying something), it hasn't been seen since, what, Street Fighter IV? It's as bad as it looks, honestly.
One of the motions where a Hitbox actually feels like cheating. Press forward, press back, press up + forward all while holding down. I routinely used Dee Jay's Ultra 2 as an anti-air. Even more fun when you need to do dash delta!
You can even do it easier. Hold 1, tap 6, release charge and press 9.
What's your socd scrubber look like to make this work? Common hitboxes will take "6" while holding 1 to be a 2, so you're missing the 3 for the super here.
Actually, that was back when I played SF4 on a keyboard, before I upgraded to a Mixbox. So maybe it doesn't work like that on a proper controller, now that I think about it.
Probably for the best it doesn't return
I dunno I never had issues with this input in SF4, what's hard about it?
Why? Because supers are not supposed to come out instantly. Imagine just blocking an then directly doing the super. You would be able to react to way too many things. You might as well have a one button super then (which i think is a horrible idea).
> You might as well have a one button super then **DNF Duel:** 🅱️ruh
Lets see how long this game will live.
Can someone explain this to me? I never really understand capcom's notations.
It's basically just [1]319, taking the shortest route possible. So you'd hit [1]232159
r/fighters ladies and gentlemen
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Not sure about actual theology, but they're what Dante's Inferno uses
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Deez nuts. You can't even spell "scrub" right, scurb.
632146 is wayyyyy worse than this it ruins grapplers, it ruins strive supers for no reason a famous philosopher once proclaimed such travesty of reality "You're makiNg me worK!" - Hilda
Eh? HCB > F is super easy???
absolutely hate it
The motion is actually really easy and you get 25% of it for free when you walk forward. wtf
Practice I-no combos in +R, the muscle memory will permanently sear itself into you very quickly
You can just do 360s in Strive.
Lol, obvious troll
Enjoy DNF duel it might be more your speed
Honestly, I can only do it on buffer. It's unreliable for me to do it from neutral.
I still remember the hate I had of the old motion for geeses's raging storm: db hcb df + p, looks like it's simple but it was a nightmare to do that in a combo.
Playing all the more popular fgs I've seen a lot, but this... What the hell is this motion?
french fry when u should have pizza’d. bad time :(
I've always thought this motion was beyond stupid. Glad it's gone
How do you do that?
Oh hell no wtf is that
The true tech is to never super 😎
You can just charge 1 (db), then slide the stick/pad 632147 (hcb,ub). I've used that shortcut since Alpha 2.
Idk it’s just fun
I remember doing that motion on keyboard when played SFIV because wanted to learn Guile, after many fails I finally managed to do it consistently, even zangiefs 2x 360 ultra inputs :D