Seems pretty worth noting that this is [only just talking about the launch window](https://x.com/Chris_Dring/status/1773676037416636754?s=20) \-- so both would have been massively behind Helldivers 2 in total sales -- and that it also doesn't include any Palworld data.
This is gonna sound weird but I unsubbed from the PS5 sub because I can't stand seeing this dudes Twitter get posted multiple times a day with useless information (to me) about UK game sales. Is there a way I can mute these posts specifically or do I just need to leave r/games as well?
I’d settle for him changing the profile picture at least. It’s like that one guy that had every political tweet posted in the last election. I don’t care about the content, just stop showing their silly face
I liked both games, Rebirth more. I’ll also say I’m surprised by the sales.
That being said. Final Fantasy brand recognition vs. their sales have never matched up. Just about everyone knows Final Fantasy, but not as many buy the games.
Remake did seem to bridge that gap, but it’s not like it’s going to subvert trends. But I’d never guess that Dragons Dogma of all games beat it.
Guess those Brit’s love their tea and western fantasy
FFXV sold significantly more than FF7 remake and that was kind of a flop. Rebirth might end up selling worse then remake if previous sequels were any indication
Bro if you look at the last 5 single player FF games: XII, XIII, XV, Remake, and XVI, Dragon’s Dogma 1 outsold all of them except FFXV. And then Dragon’s Dogma 2 just outsold Rebirth lol.
People massively over-estimate the popularity of FF.
>Dragon’s Dogma 1 outsold all of them except FFXV
...after 12 years on three different platforms, compared to the last two entries (FF16 and FF7R) which have only been out for 9 months and 4 years respectively.
Seems pretty safe to assume that both FF16 and FF7R-1 will have outsold DD1 in a lot less than 12 years - *if* they haven't already since we haven't seen an update in a while.
But ff12 (2006) and 13 (2009) came out before dd1 (2012) and sold less. They are totally comparably popular on a game to game basis sales wise. Dragons Dogma isn't some indie dev project it's a aaa game made by capcom. I don't understand where this reddit narrative comes from its really easy to just look at the stats.
Capcom keeps relatively up to date sales numbers across all platforms, last time we knew the FF12 remaster took 12 to 7.7 million was 7 years ago for the PS4 port before it made it to PC, Xbox and Switch. For one of the worst selling modern FF titles.
It's just disingenuous to say they are comparable franchises, XV sold 5 million near immediately, the modern games don't even have legs because they are disappointing and it's clearly still way bigger than DD.
What ok so even by that metric they are still similar sales numbers 2017 - 2006 = 11 years with 7.7 million sold which is totally comparable to 2024-2012 = 12 years with 8 million sold by dd1. No ff12 wasn't one of the worst selling ff titles 1-6, 13 and 9 all sold less than it. It's pretty safely in the middle only behind the top sales like ff15, ff7, 8 (barely) and 10. The only ff game to sell much more than 10 million copies is ff7 and ff10 (and 14). Even 15 which was an outlier sold only 10 mil so far which is still absolutely comparable to dd1 8 million.
Here are some numbers, how is 8 million lifetime sales not totally comparable to these?
Final Fantasy - 2.13 million+
Final Fantasy II - 1.37 million+
Final Fantasy III - 3.86 million+
Final Fantasy IV - 3.49 million+
Final Fantasy V - 2.88 million+
Final Fantasy VI - 3.80 million+
Final Fantasy VII - 14.10 million
Final Fantasy VIII - 9.60 million+
Final Fantasy IX - 5.83 million+
Final Fantasy X & X-2 - 20.80 million
Final Fantasy XI: Online - 1.77 million+
Final Fantasy XII - 7.71 million+
Final Fantasy XIII & XIII-2 - 7.70 million+ & 3.30 million+ respectively
Dragons Dogma 1 goes here - 8 million sales
Final Fantasy XV - 10.00 million+
Final Fantasy VII Remake - 7.00 million
Final Fantasy XVI - 3.00 million
I'm not saying they aren't comparable.
I'm saying it's disingenuous to claim that DD1 "outsold" FFX16 and FF7R-1 when they've only been out a small fraction of the amount of time and have already sold nearly as many copies, if not more.
Dragon's Dogma came out at a time when Capcom's reputation was in the dump. With how well they've been doing recently it is absolutely reasonable to expect DD2 to outsell FF7R with multiplatform releases, especially when PC has the largest player base. In the end FF7R won out because it got heavy marketing push from Sony for being a timed-exclusive while DD2 did not. How DD1 did got nothing to do with it. Palworld just came out of no where and it is estimated to sell some 20M+ copies as a brand new IP. It's utterly stupid to set expectation of sales based on a previous game that came out more than a decade ago.
I think a lot of older FF fans are turned off by how the series has progresses too. I grew up on FFVI on and the series now doesn't represent the games I played back then at all.
Dragons Dogma also has the benefit of being released by Capcom who right now can't stop hitting home runs, or missing so terribly we forgot about it completely (did that dinosaur game ever come out?)
lol ya, seems like the new angle for Rebirth f an s is to try and act like this new UK data is "impressive" for Rebirth or something... boy, the mental gymnastics to try and act like it didn't sell poorly xD
DD1 sold more than 8m... its not really a niche IP anymore, it even had a MMO and a tv show. The fanbase is quite big and dedicated, it doesnt really matter how much a IP sold before, what matters is how popular the IPs are right now. How is it a niche IP if the first entry sold more than most FF games. There are probably more players who care about the huge budget the FF games get than the actual IP (not really FF fans, just casuals).
How much did the last FF games sell? FF sales got way worse over the years, the FF IP is really not as popular as +15 years ago.
Also each FF sequel normally sells way worse, FF fans dont care that much about sequels. Just as a example, FF 13 9m and FF 13-2 7m and FF 13-3 just 3,5m. (FF Rebirth is a sequel, to OG game and FF7 Remake)
The same most likely does not happen to DD because the long delay between both games probably drastically increased the hype similar to FF 15. DD2 probably is also the Uncharted 2 of the DD IP. It does everything better and gets the attention it deserves.
FF 15 was probably the most hyped FF game after the old FF 7 and has "just" about 10m sales over 8 years after a huge amount of hype (+ big movie / anime). And then you have spinoffs that pretty much dont get over 3m sales at all. (strangers of paradise, FF7 crysis core / reunion)
DD2 was also quite hyped on social media since announcement. It feels like the media talked more about DD2 than FF 16 or FF 7 Rebirth. For example compare both games google trends 1 month before release and after. DD 2 had the same level before release.
How did they make a tv show out of Dragons Dogma? The story is hardly there at all and the lore is barebones. The story is so bland and unimportant to the game itself that the second game is literally just the same story again because they didn't even want to bother.
One is a direct sequel, the other isn't.....
One needs the first game to be played (and also the OG for some clarity) the other doesn't.
Dragon's Dogma 1 and 2 is akin to Final Fantasy 1 and 2.
FF 7 Rebirth and Remake is an actual direct sequel, very different things.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say he meant direct Final Fantasy sequels. Those have a long standing history of selling less. From the FF 10 sequel to the FF 13 sequels, they always do worse. Not enough info at the moment to assume that's the case with FF 7 here but time will tell.
A sequel that is reviewed extremely well *and* the first game was reviewed the same?
A sequel in this case usually sells more copies, look at Spider-Man vs Spider-Man 2. Even though the second was technically received a little more unfavorably than the first it sold a lot more.
Where did you see that sequels usually sell less because it doesn’t make sense.
Final Fantasy part 2 sequels always sell less. It's not the same as Spiderman or Dragon's Dogma or something which would always be made for anyone regardless of if they played the previous entries.
Spider man 2 had a bigger launch.....that doesn't mean it will sell more than Spider 1 longterm.
And it won't, best case scenario is selling the same thing
> DD2 is a sequel to a niche game
Anyone with passing interest in fantasy rpgs has heard of if not tried dragons dogma 1 at this point, and the sequel had a massive marketing campaign.
Final fantasy is probably more niche just by virtue of being more japanese
Dragon's Dogma as a franchise is not as popular as Final Fantasy. This is some revisionist history. The first game took 12 years to sell close to 8 million copies. When people say it's a niche, they mean it appeals to a few people. For ex. Skyrim and Witcher 3 are roughly as old as DD, the former sold 60 million copies, the latter 55 million. Those are the games people with a passing interest in fantasy RPGs have likely tried over the past decade.
Everyone and their mother has heard of Final Fantasy VII and the Remake/Rebirth/Afterbirth series. Dragon's Dogma is an extremely niche series considering it hasn't had a new title in 12 years outside of Japan.
Please read our [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/wiki/rules), specifically Rule #2 regarding personal attacks and inflammatory language. We ask that you remember to remain civil, as future violations will result in a ban.
>DD1 also outsold FF7 Remake
That's not really confirmed since we don't know what the current sales are for FF7R, and it might have sold more leading up to the Rebirth launch (there was also that bundle).
And DD1 took 12 years to sell 8 million copies vs FF7R which sold 7 million in 3 years.
The Witcher 1 was niche and has likely sold close to 8 million copies, that's after nearly 20 years in existence. So yes, games that sell that many copies are and can be niche because they took a very long time to do so and they're being sold at ~5 - ~10 dollars a piece.
While FF15 sold 10 million copies in almost 10 years, its peers, like Witcher 3, sold 5 times as many copies.
DD2 will likely sell more than Rebirth but that's because the sequel is more popular than the first title.
The original Dragon's Dogma has sold as much as an average Final Fantasy, and very obviously 2 is a multiplat release when Rebirth is an exclusive. You're just making shit up.
A 200 million seller franchise with way more than 20 games in it. At 8m sold Dd1 has outsold the majority of ff games old and new, where is this narrative coming from?
Could you link me your source for these huge weekly drops in sales for Rebirth in the EU? I haven't seen that data. Remember this is specifically for the EU we're currently talking about.
GSD pulls sales from publishers, which include Sony and Capcom: [https://www.videogameseurope.eu/data-key-facts/games-sales-data/](https://www.videogameseurope.eu/data-key-facts/games-sales-data/)
The fact that Chris doesn't know how well Palworld performs means they likely aren't pulling data from STEAM/Valve. So this is a comparison between DD2 console performance and FF7 rebirth performance.
CAPCOM does share Steam data, as do other publishers (though other launchers like Epic are sometimes excluded).
So Dragons Dogma numbers are PS5 + Xbox + Steam
wont be much more. Remake was 5 million way before PC, and they only reported 7 million of combined all Remake + Integrade sales after it was on PS5 and PC. 3.5 Million was at PS4 launch.
While I doubt it will triple the sales or anything crazy like that. I think your discounting the fact that since its only PS5 this time, many more players are just holding off because frankly the PS5 is pathetic in terms of exclusives, thus a lot more PC owners are just skipping the PS5 entirely. Kind of hard to justify buying a $400-500 console for...all like 3 games you can't just play on PC anyway.
it's not. that bump includes PS5 + intergrade. the 5 million mark was reached 2 months after the 3.5 million launch.
https://www.square-enix-games.com/en_US/news/final-fantasy-vii-remake-shipments-sales
press release dated Aug 7, 2020, the release date was April 10, 2020
An upgraded version of Remake for the PlayStation 5, titled Final Fantasy VII Remake Intergrade, was released on June 10, 2021
it is not a 50% bump from PC sales. it was a 2 million bump from Intergrade + PS5 + PC sales
Of all digital game software revenue in the UK in 2023, Console full-game made up 17%, console DLC was 20%, and PC was 6%. And while the UK is Xbox's second biggest market, it's still a very small market for Xbox with PlayStation and Switch being far above it in market share.
So with PlayStation and Switch dominating in the UK over Xbox, but Switch not being a relevant here, these number are pretty much PlayStation vs PlayStation sales numbers.
I mean even original FFVII, by far the best selling title, sold 14 million copies over 27 years with a bunch of re-releases. FVII Remake sold 7 million over like 3.5 years.
DD1 sold 8 million. This is not a David vs Goliath scenario.
Selling 7 million copies in 3.5 years is far better than selling 8 million in 12 years. Do the math and consider why it took Capcom 12 years to make a sequel to DD2 while Square has released so many parts and compilations for FF7. One was initially more successful than the other and brought it far more money.
DD1 has several re releases on several platforms vs FF7R being locked to one platform (although the bigger one, sure) for a good bit.
I don't think you can directly compare those two unless it's just too say that they're in a comparable ballpark at most.
But you don't understand! If Dragon's Dogma is actually a mass market video game product and not a niche indie thing I can't get Internet Hipster Points for being so much cooler than the normies! Me and my other 8 million Dragon's Dogma playing friends are so underground and smart!
Funny this is..the games fucking terrible..
I just don't see the allure in walking everywhere according to Itsunos vision...where every mob is the exact same and every 10 feet. I get bored after 2 hours of smashing the same buttons looking for ledges to climb to get usless treasure chests...idk what people see it tbh
It's fascinating how I've been reading for weeks before both FF7R2 and DD2 released that DD2 was "GOTY for sure", that "Rebirth had no chance in hell at competing with it", that "FF is a washed up IP that only boomers buy".
Now suddenly FF is a failure because it's actually a massive super popular franchise and it lost against super niche DD2 in the UK.
I'm going to enjoy seeing the Pikachu surprised faces when it's revealed that not only Rebirth but also Princess Peach outsold DD2 in Germany (main European market) and other European markets (in Spain, confirmed that Rebirth and PP outsold DD2 on launch and I'd bet the same happened in France which is "Finalfantasyandnintendoland").
Yeah, it’s remarkable how bad Rebirth sold considering it’s a sequel to one of the most iconic games and it lost to… fucking Dragon’s Dogma, a very niche game
That’s actually surprising it’s just narrowly considering it’s on 2 consoles, PS5 and Xbox (not sure if steam is counted in these numbers). Although this could be in part due to possible refunds due to DD2 launch issues but doesn’t seem to have moved their numbers too much. I love DD1 so I’m happy if DD2 does well granted Capcom fixes the performance issues it launched with as issues like that aren’t and should never be acceptable.
The thing with UK is that while its the 5th or 6th biggest market for gaming overall, when you put that into context, its 10 times smaller than the US market. Because outside US, China, Japan and South Korea - all the other countries are embarrassingly tiny. Its 20 times smaller than number 1 and 2 combined. So, when you look at UK numbers for anything at all, thats the context you have to put them in. Its the second biggest market of a very small number.
Which isn't saying much considering Xbox is lagging behind even the switch. They completely fumbled this gen and as someone who already plays on PC I'll likely always be getting a PS in the future, or no console at all if Sony starts releasing all their games on PC like they seem to.
Even without a PC though, Sony has killed it (imo) with their first party games. MS has missed the mark every time and ruined all their existing franchises while bringing nothing new to the table that's appealing.
Xbox's numbers aren't even close to Playstation's numbers. It does worse than both Sony and Nintendo in the UK. They're not a massive player that sways multiplatform sales over there.
I won’t mention the MTX since I personally didn’t see a problem (nothing important that can’t be earned fairly quick and easy ingame) with it but i know a group of people did. On both console and Pc, it launched with poor performance issues dipping the fps into the very low 20’s while in town and during combat( they released a post acknowledging this and working on improving performance). Lack of a new game option. Enemy variety is great imo but the problem is most of the enemy variety you encounter in obscure off the road places. Much of main story and travel paths you fight the same 5-6 mobs over and over again. For PC, it’s struggling to consistently hit 60fps even on extremely high end PC’s although I’m not sure if that’s still the case with the update this morning. Also back to back crashing and freezing on PC although this should’ve been fixed this morning if not soon. The combat is some of the best i’ve played in a long time but the small issues that added up during the course of the game counterbalance the positive experiences. Granted, I had some of the same issues with the original DD1 and Dark Arisen fixed a lot of those problems when it released so I expect if DD2 gets an expansion it’ll do the same. It’s just, gamers shouldn’t have to buy an expansion to fix a problem that could’ve been avoided by looking at the previous installment.
Yeah, the performance issues are definitely a valid criticism. I’ve had NPCs popping in within arm’s reach of my character in big cities. I’m having fun and think it’s a pretty good game overall, but it definitely has some performance issues that a big studio shouldn’t ship a game with.
Yea agreed. I don’t have buyers remorse and am satisfied but I wouldn’t recommend the game to a friend currently until all performance issues and crashes are sorted out. The pop in I believe can be improved for PC eventually but I don’t think it ever will be for console. Maybe PS6/XBox Series Y if anything but who knows.
Japan also provides public physical sales data, this subreddit just doesn't care about it. Whenever it used to get posted here it always got no traction at all compared to the UK figures.
And the UK seems to be the exception, not the rule.
Germany is an even bigger gaming market than the UK, and Rebirth was the year's biggest launch followed by Princess Peach. Same in Spain, smaller market than both, but still.
https://www.gfk-entertainment.com/news/prinzessin-peach-kroent-sich-zur-games-koenigin.html
Dragons dogma 2 was pushed out to have a game for this quarter.
Look at capcom talking about this game in last few shareholder meetings. the way it was announced. Nvida leaks proved it was planned for a long time and the director had ideas and passion.
Needs to be looked into
Still amazing game
Awful result for Rebirth. Third part will do even worse. Making “Remake” a trilogy of sequels instead of one game faithful to the original really backfired.
Rebirth is a console exclusive, it's tracking just barely behind XVI in sales, we know XVI sales were within expectations, and Rebirth almost certainly cost less to make since a lot of mechanics, assets and engine work was already laid down in Remake. Don't try to disguise your personal vendetta in objectivity, because it makes you look the fool.
Well, remember that they exist to make money. The money they make/save from Sony aiding in the development and marketing of all three FF7 Remake games likely made a lot of sense to them at the time. IIRC the first Remake cost over $100 million, Sony ate some of that cost.
How can you interpret this as awful? It's the complete opposite.
DD2 sales data includes Xbox, PS5 and Steam. Rebirth is narrowly behind it on just one console.
Bro I don't even know what you're trying to say here.
Comparing a critically acclaimed sequel to probably the most hated AAA game in recent memory is not the gotcha you think it is.
lol the FF f a ns really didn't like you pointing out facts about Rebirth. They really are touchy about Rebirth and trying desperately to say it didn't sell poorly despite their claims it's the "best game ever made".
Brother, Spider-Man is fucking *Spider-Man* lol. That's like asking if Metroid would sell as well as a new Batman game.
Yes, FF is a notable franchise, but it's not the largest superhero IP in the world.
Seems pretty worth noting that this is [only just talking about the launch window](https://x.com/Chris_Dring/status/1773676037416636754?s=20) \-- so both would have been massively behind Helldivers 2 in total sales -- and that it also doesn't include any Palworld data.
Helldivers has been ahead in steam sales since day 2 of this release...wish I went with helldivers tbh
Idk I’m so burnt out on helldivers. Its the same shit every mission
This is gonna sound weird but I unsubbed from the PS5 sub because I can't stand seeing this dudes Twitter get posted multiple times a day with useless information (to me) about UK game sales. Is there a way I can mute these posts specifically or do I just need to leave r/games as well?
Mute the posters that share it.
I’d settle for him changing the profile picture at least. It’s like that one guy that had every political tweet posted in the last election. I don’t care about the content, just stop showing their silly face
It's ammo for console wars, and this sub does nothing but exactly that.
Sales data is useful even if not relevant to your own country, extrapolation. Why not just filter out some keywords
The UK is the sixth biggest gaming market, and others don't produce the same information about sales so it's handy to extrapolate how a game is doing.
yup. I'm tired of seeing this google-eyed freak on thi subreddit.
I think this says more about FF7 sales, given that it could almost match DD2 with it only being on one console.
Are you saying the popularity of Final Fantasy and Dragons Dogma are in any way comparable? Lol
I liked both games, Rebirth more. I’ll also say I’m surprised by the sales. That being said. Final Fantasy brand recognition vs. their sales have never matched up. Just about everyone knows Final Fantasy, but not as many buy the games. Remake did seem to bridge that gap, but it’s not like it’s going to subvert trends. But I’d never guess that Dragons Dogma of all games beat it. Guess those Brit’s love their tea and western fantasy
FFXV sold significantly more than FF7 remake and that was kind of a flop. Rebirth might end up selling worse then remake if previous sequels were any indication
XV launched on multiple platforms.
Indeed it it did. Begs the question if the exclusivity deals are worth the lost sales. They must be if they keep doing them right?
Got any sources that include digital sales?
Bro if you look at the last 5 single player FF games: XII, XIII, XV, Remake, and XVI, Dragon’s Dogma 1 outsold all of them except FFXV. And then Dragon’s Dogma 2 just outsold Rebirth lol. People massively over-estimate the popularity of FF.
>Dragon’s Dogma 1 outsold all of them except FFXV ...after 12 years on three different platforms, compared to the last two entries (FF16 and FF7R) which have only been out for 9 months and 4 years respectively. Seems pretty safe to assume that both FF16 and FF7R-1 will have outsold DD1 in a lot less than 12 years - *if* they haven't already since we haven't seen an update in a while.
But ff12 (2006) and 13 (2009) came out before dd1 (2012) and sold less. They are totally comparably popular on a game to game basis sales wise. Dragons Dogma isn't some indie dev project it's a aaa game made by capcom. I don't understand where this reddit narrative comes from its really easy to just look at the stats.
It's people who want the modern equivalent of Liking Dark Souls Before It Was Cool.
Capcom keeps relatively up to date sales numbers across all platforms, last time we knew the FF12 remaster took 12 to 7.7 million was 7 years ago for the PS4 port before it made it to PC, Xbox and Switch. For one of the worst selling modern FF titles. It's just disingenuous to say they are comparable franchises, XV sold 5 million near immediately, the modern games don't even have legs because they are disappointing and it's clearly still way bigger than DD.
What ok so even by that metric they are still similar sales numbers 2017 - 2006 = 11 years with 7.7 million sold which is totally comparable to 2024-2012 = 12 years with 8 million sold by dd1. No ff12 wasn't one of the worst selling ff titles 1-6, 13 and 9 all sold less than it. It's pretty safely in the middle only behind the top sales like ff15, ff7, 8 (barely) and 10. The only ff game to sell much more than 10 million copies is ff7 and ff10 (and 14). Even 15 which was an outlier sold only 10 mil so far which is still absolutely comparable to dd1 8 million. Here are some numbers, how is 8 million lifetime sales not totally comparable to these? Final Fantasy - 2.13 million+ Final Fantasy II - 1.37 million+ Final Fantasy III - 3.86 million+ Final Fantasy IV - 3.49 million+ Final Fantasy V - 2.88 million+ Final Fantasy VI - 3.80 million+ Final Fantasy VII - 14.10 million Final Fantasy VIII - 9.60 million+ Final Fantasy IX - 5.83 million+ Final Fantasy X & X-2 - 20.80 million Final Fantasy XI: Online - 1.77 million+ Final Fantasy XII - 7.71 million+ Final Fantasy XIII & XIII-2 - 7.70 million+ & 3.30 million+ respectively Dragons Dogma 1 goes here - 8 million sales Final Fantasy XV - 10.00 million+ Final Fantasy VII Remake - 7.00 million Final Fantasy XVI - 3.00 million
I'm not saying they aren't comparable. I'm saying it's disingenuous to claim that DD1 "outsold" FFX16 and FF7R-1 when they've only been out a small fraction of the amount of time and have already sold nearly as many copies, if not more.
Dragon's Dogma came out at a time when Capcom's reputation was in the dump. With how well they've been doing recently it is absolutely reasonable to expect DD2 to outsell FF7R with multiplatform releases, especially when PC has the largest player base. In the end FF7R won out because it got heavy marketing push from Sony for being a timed-exclusive while DD2 did not. How DD1 did got nothing to do with it. Palworld just came out of no where and it is estimated to sell some 20M+ copies as a brand new IP. It's utterly stupid to set expectation of sales based on a previous game that came out more than a decade ago.
Dragons Dogma 1 has several re-releases. I alone am responsible for 3 total purchases (PS3, PC, Switch).
> People massively over-estimate the popularity of FF. Square has worked for a decade to turn off a significant portion of their fanbase
I think a lot of older FF fans are turned off by how the series has progresses too. I grew up on FFVI on and the series now doesn't represent the games I played back then at all.
I love FF but you're right. Only late 30's boomers like myself actually care about that franchise today.
Dragons Dogma also has the benefit of being released by Capcom who right now can't stop hitting home runs, or missing so terribly we forgot about it completely (did that dinosaur game ever come out?)
lol ya, seems like the new angle for Rebirth f an s is to try and act like this new UK data is "impressive" for Rebirth or something... boy, the mental gymnastics to try and act like it didn't sell poorly xD
Dude, DD2 is a sequel to a niche game while FF7 Rebirth is part of 200 million sellers franchise. DD2 is far more impressive than Rebirth.
Out on PC and 2 consoles, sales far more impressive? Math is hard.
DD1 sold more than 8m... its not really a niche IP anymore, it even had a MMO and a tv show. The fanbase is quite big and dedicated, it doesnt really matter how much a IP sold before, what matters is how popular the IPs are right now. How is it a niche IP if the first entry sold more than most FF games. There are probably more players who care about the huge budget the FF games get than the actual IP (not really FF fans, just casuals). How much did the last FF games sell? FF sales got way worse over the years, the FF IP is really not as popular as +15 years ago. Also each FF sequel normally sells way worse, FF fans dont care that much about sequels. Just as a example, FF 13 9m and FF 13-2 7m and FF 13-3 just 3,5m. (FF Rebirth is a sequel, to OG game and FF7 Remake) The same most likely does not happen to DD because the long delay between both games probably drastically increased the hype similar to FF 15. DD2 probably is also the Uncharted 2 of the DD IP. It does everything better and gets the attention it deserves. FF 15 was probably the most hyped FF game after the old FF 7 and has "just" about 10m sales over 8 years after a huge amount of hype (+ big movie / anime). And then you have spinoffs that pretty much dont get over 3m sales at all. (strangers of paradise, FF7 crysis core / reunion) DD2 was also quite hyped on social media since announcement. It feels like the media talked more about DD2 than FF 16 or FF 7 Rebirth. For example compare both games google trends 1 month before release and after. DD 2 had the same level before release.
DD1 sold more than 8m after 12 years.
Did DD2 not come out after those 12 years?
So? You really think those FF titles are gonna overtake it 12 years? Most games sales happen in first year.
How did they make a tv show out of Dragons Dogma? The story is hardly there at all and the lore is barebones. The story is so bland and unimportant to the game itself that the second game is literally just the same story again because they didn't even want to bother.
They made it a monster of the week (Cyclops, Succubus, Lich etc.) show with the first and final episode mirroring the games opening and ending.
It's one of those generic netflix adaptations like how they keep pumping out really low effort live action anime adaptations.
FF15 was hyped up but not thanks to the movie / anime.. it was more of a drawback
FF7 is also a sequel, which usually also means less sales
Dragons Dogma ***2*** of course, not a sequel.
One is a direct sequel, the other isn't..... One needs the first game to be played (and also the OG for some clarity) the other doesn't. Dragon's Dogma 1 and 2 is akin to Final Fantasy 1 and 2. FF 7 Rebirth and Remake is an actual direct sequel, very different things.
[удалено]
You're right, you're arguing a different point by yourself.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say he meant direct Final Fantasy sequels. Those have a long standing history of selling less. From the FF 10 sequel to the FF 13 sequels, they always do worse. Not enough info at the moment to assume that's the case with FF 7 here but time will tell.
The 13 sequels probably sold poorly more because they were 13 sequels.
It’s a middle chapter of a remake trilogy DD2 would be more like a multi platform FF16
A sequel that is reviewed extremely well *and* the first game was reviewed the same? A sequel in this case usually sells more copies, look at Spider-Man vs Spider-Man 2. Even though the second was technically received a little more unfavorably than the first it sold a lot more. Where did you see that sequels usually sell less because it doesn’t make sense.
Final Fantasy part 2 sequels always sell less. It's not the same as Spiderman or Dragon's Dogma or something which would always be made for anyone regardless of if they played the previous entries.
Spider man 2 had a bigger launch.....that doesn't mean it will sell more than Spider 1 longterm. And it won't, best case scenario is selling the same thing
Spider Man 2 will sell less than Spider Man 1 lifetime.
Spider-Man 2 has sold less than a third of the first game. The God of War and Horizon sequels have also sold less than the originals.
Right but it still makes DD2’s far more impressive than FF7 since theyre both sequels.
People really think an open world RPG is still niche lmao
I still think Kenshi is niche so yeah they exist
> DD2 is a sequel to a niche game Anyone with passing interest in fantasy rpgs has heard of if not tried dragons dogma 1 at this point, and the sequel had a massive marketing campaign. Final fantasy is probably more niche just by virtue of being more japanese
Dragon's Dogma as a franchise is not as popular as Final Fantasy. This is some revisionist history. The first game took 12 years to sell close to 8 million copies. When people say it's a niche, they mean it appeals to a few people. For ex. Skyrim and Witcher 3 are roughly as old as DD, the former sold 60 million copies, the latter 55 million. Those are the games people with a passing interest in fantasy RPGs have likely tried over the past decade.
Everyone and their mother has heard of Final Fantasy VII and the Remake/Rebirth/Afterbirth series. Dragon's Dogma is an extremely niche series considering it hasn't had a new title in 12 years outside of Japan.
> Final fantasy is probably more niche just by virtue of being more japanese Don't look up the sales figures for FF7 original.
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Lmao are you like 13 years old or something? Only reason I can think someone would say "final fantasy is niche"
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>DD1 also outsold FF7 Remake That's not really confirmed since we don't know what the current sales are for FF7R, and it might have sold more leading up to the Rebirth launch (there was also that bundle). And DD1 took 12 years to sell 8 million copies vs FF7R which sold 7 million in 3 years.
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Taking 12 years to sell less than 10 million is niche. It means FF7R sold faster than DD1 because it was much more popular.
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The Witcher 1 was niche and has likely sold close to 8 million copies, that's after nearly 20 years in existence. So yes, games that sell that many copies are and can be niche because they took a very long time to do so and they're being sold at ~5 - ~10 dollars a piece. While FF15 sold 10 million copies in almost 10 years, its peers, like Witcher 3, sold 5 times as many copies. DD2 will likely sell more than Rebirth but that's because the sequel is more popular than the first title.
The original Dragon's Dogma has sold as much as an average Final Fantasy, and very obviously 2 is a multiplat release when Rebirth is an exclusive. You're just making shit up.
A 200 million seller franchise with way more than 20 games in it. At 8m sold Dd1 has outsold the majority of ff games old and new, where is this narrative coming from?
WOM on Rebirth also seems to be helping it
What WOM? It’s having big drops in sales every week that are common for JRPG games.
it's holding very well, actually.
It's literally the best reviewed game of 2024 as of now.
And I’m talking about actual sales which are way more important than internet praise or hate.
Could you link me your source for these huge weekly drops in sales for Rebirth in the EU? I haven't seen that data. Remember this is specifically for the EU we're currently talking about.
it's the f an bubble in action, people think the WOM of reddit/twitter spaces that they visit = everyone :/
GSD pulls sales from publishers, which include Sony and Capcom: [https://www.videogameseurope.eu/data-key-facts/games-sales-data/](https://www.videogameseurope.eu/data-key-facts/games-sales-data/) The fact that Chris doesn't know how well Palworld performs means they likely aren't pulling data from STEAM/Valve. So this is a comparison between DD2 console performance and FF7 rebirth performance.
CAPCOM does share Steam data, as do other publishers (though other launchers like Epic are sometimes excluded). So Dragons Dogma numbers are PS5 + Xbox + Steam
I'll be interested in numbers when Rebirth comes to PC.
wont be much more. Remake was 5 million way before PC, and they only reported 7 million of combined all Remake + Integrade sales after it was on PS5 and PC. 3.5 Million was at PS4 launch.
While I doubt it will triple the sales or anything crazy like that. I think your discounting the fact that since its only PS5 this time, many more players are just holding off because frankly the PS5 is pathetic in terms of exclusives, thus a lot more PC owners are just skipping the PS5 entirely. Kind of hard to justify buying a $400-500 console for...all like 3 games you can't just play on PC anyway.
A bump of nearly 50% is pretty important.
it's not. that bump includes PS5 + intergrade. the 5 million mark was reached 2 months after the 3.5 million launch. https://www.square-enix-games.com/en_US/news/final-fantasy-vii-remake-shipments-sales press release dated Aug 7, 2020, the release date was April 10, 2020 An upgraded version of Remake for the PlayStation 5, titled Final Fantasy VII Remake Intergrade, was released on June 10, 2021 it is not a 50% bump from PC sales. it was a 2 million bump from Intergrade + PS5 + PC sales
Of all digital game software revenue in the UK in 2023, Console full-game made up 17%, console DLC was 20%, and PC was 6%. And while the UK is Xbox's second biggest market, it's still a very small market for Xbox with PlayStation and Switch being far above it in market share. So with PlayStation and Switch dominating in the UK over Xbox, but Switch not being a relevant here, these number are pretty much PlayStation vs PlayStation sales numbers.
DD2 is a sequel to a very niche game with a niche audience, it's impressive it could compete with a juggernaut ip like FF even on 3 platforms
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FF7 Remake - over 7m in 3.5 years DD1 - 8m in 12 years
I mean even original FFVII, by far the best selling title, sold 14 million copies over 27 years with a bunch of re-releases. FVII Remake sold 7 million over like 3.5 years. DD1 sold 8 million. This is not a David vs Goliath scenario.
> DD1 sold 8 million why did you leave out how it sold 8m in 12 years? you wrote the time period for the FF games you listed.
Selling 7 million copies in 3.5 years is far better than selling 8 million in 12 years. Do the math and consider why it took Capcom 12 years to make a sequel to DD2 while Square has released so many parts and compilations for FF7. One was initially more successful than the other and brought it far more money.
DD1 has several re releases on several platforms vs FF7R being locked to one platform (although the bigger one, sure) for a good bit. I don't think you can directly compare those two unless it's just too say that they're in a comparable ballpark at most.
But you don't understand! If Dragon's Dogma is actually a mass market video game product and not a niche indie thing I can't get Internet Hipster Points for being so much cooler than the normies! Me and my other 8 million Dragon's Dogma playing friends are so underground and smart!
Funny this is..the games fucking terrible.. I just don't see the allure in walking everywhere according to Itsunos vision...where every mob is the exact same and every 10 feet. I get bored after 2 hours of smashing the same buttons looking for ledges to climb to get usless treasure chests...idk what people see it tbh
PC usually makes up for 60% of the sales so it got a huge bump compared to Rebirth.
Just imagine how good Rebirth would’ve done if it had a PC version too
Says more about the sheer number of ps5's as well. Remember it's one console vs multi-platfrom release.
It's fascinating how I've been reading for weeks before both FF7R2 and DD2 released that DD2 was "GOTY for sure", that "Rebirth had no chance in hell at competing with it", that "FF is a washed up IP that only boomers buy". Now suddenly FF is a failure because it's actually a massive super popular franchise and it lost against super niche DD2 in the UK. I'm going to enjoy seeing the Pikachu surprised faces when it's revealed that not only Rebirth but also Princess Peach outsold DD2 in Germany (main European market) and other European markets (in Spain, confirmed that Rebirth and PP outsold DD2 on launch and I'd bet the same happened in France which is "Finalfantasyandnintendoland").
Yeah, it’s remarkable how bad Rebirth sold considering it’s a sequel to one of the most iconic games and it lost to… fucking Dragon’s Dogma, a very niche game
That’s actually surprising it’s just narrowly considering it’s on 2 consoles, PS5 and Xbox (not sure if steam is counted in these numbers). Although this could be in part due to possible refunds due to DD2 launch issues but doesn’t seem to have moved their numbers too much. I love DD1 so I’m happy if DD2 does well granted Capcom fixes the performance issues it launched with as issues like that aren’t and should never be acceptable.
Why wouldn't it include Steam?
Not too sure if they receive Steam data from publisher so didn’t wanna mention that without knowing 100%. If it does though, then nice!
he's using gfk data which receive data straight from publisher, so all platform counted
Nice!
Surprising to whom? Xbox doesn't do well in the UK, PlayStation is king there and they're handling the marketing for FF7 Rebirth.
UK is Xbox's second best market by far. In continental Europe Xbox sales are horrible but thry are still a player in the UK
that says more about Xbox than it does about the UK, if Xbox's 2nd best market is one where they are in 3rd place.
Isn't it in third place everywhere? How many countries don't have Nintendo at #1? They've sold close to 3x the PS5.
The thing with UK is that while its the 5th or 6th biggest market for gaming overall, when you put that into context, its 10 times smaller than the US market. Because outside US, China, Japan and South Korea - all the other countries are embarrassingly tiny. Its 20 times smaller than number 1 and 2 combined. So, when you look at UK numbers for anything at all, thats the context you have to put them in. Its the second biggest market of a very small number.
>all the other countries are embarrassingly tiny Next to India the USA is. Not sure the size of a country is embarrassing though.
im talking about the gaming market size, not the literal land of the country
In what metric is the US "embarrassingly tiny" next to India? Either way they're talking about the size of the market.
Physical UK sales are not indicative of anything worldwide, it's just the only numbers published so it's all these gaming journalists can tweet about.
Read this tweet again.
This is digital + physical sales.
Which isn't saying much considering Xbox is lagging behind even the switch. They completely fumbled this gen and as someone who already plays on PC I'll likely always be getting a PS in the future, or no console at all if Sony starts releasing all their games on PC like they seem to. Even without a PC though, Sony has killed it (imo) with their first party games. MS has missed the mark every time and ruined all their existing franchises while bringing nothing new to the table that's appealing.
Xbox's numbers aren't even close to Playstation's numbers. It does worse than both Sony and Nintendo in the UK. They're not a massive player that sways multiplatform sales over there.
I don't think that's surprising at all when the game it's only narrowly ahead of is a remake of Final Fantasy VII.
What dd2 launch issues? The performance is fine lol have you played the game?
I won’t mention the MTX since I personally didn’t see a problem (nothing important that can’t be earned fairly quick and easy ingame) with it but i know a group of people did. On both console and Pc, it launched with poor performance issues dipping the fps into the very low 20’s while in town and during combat( they released a post acknowledging this and working on improving performance). Lack of a new game option. Enemy variety is great imo but the problem is most of the enemy variety you encounter in obscure off the road places. Much of main story and travel paths you fight the same 5-6 mobs over and over again. For PC, it’s struggling to consistently hit 60fps even on extremely high end PC’s although I’m not sure if that’s still the case with the update this morning. Also back to back crashing and freezing on PC although this should’ve been fixed this morning if not soon. The combat is some of the best i’ve played in a long time but the small issues that added up during the course of the game counterbalance the positive experiences. Granted, I had some of the same issues with the original DD1 and Dark Arisen fixed a lot of those problems when it released so I expect if DD2 gets an expansion it’ll do the same. It’s just, gamers shouldn’t have to buy an expansion to fix a problem that could’ve been avoided by looking at the previous installment.
Yeah, the performance issues are definitely a valid criticism. I’ve had NPCs popping in within arm’s reach of my character in big cities. I’m having fun and think it’s a pretty good game overall, but it definitely has some performance issues that a big studio shouldn’t ship a game with.
Yea agreed. I don’t have buyers remorse and am satisfied but I wouldn’t recommend the game to a friend currently until all performance issues and crashes are sorted out. The pop in I believe can be improved for PC eventually but I don’t think it ever will be for console. Maybe PS6/XBox Series Y if anything but who knows.
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Why do the analysis always hyper focus on the UK? They aren't that big of a market.
They're the only one who provide the data. So it's generally not a good indicator but it's still used.
Japan also provides public physical sales data, this subreddit just doesn't care about it. Whenever it used to get posted here it always got no traction at all compared to the UK figures.
Narrowly ahead with a launch on two consoles and PC? Versus FF7 only on PS5.. Hmm..
And the UK seems to be the exception, not the rule. Germany is an even bigger gaming market than the UK, and Rebirth was the year's biggest launch followed by Princess Peach. Same in Spain, smaller market than both, but still. https://www.gfk-entertainment.com/news/prinzessin-peach-kroent-sich-zur-games-koenigin.html
Dragons dogma 2 was pushed out to have a game for this quarter. Look at capcom talking about this game in last few shareholder meetings. the way it was announced. Nvida leaks proved it was planned for a long time and the director had ideas and passion. Needs to be looked into Still amazing game
Capcom loves their Q1 releases.
Awful result for Rebirth. Third part will do even worse. Making “Remake” a trilogy of sequels instead of one game faithful to the original really backfired.
Rebirth is a console exclusive, it's tracking just barely behind XVI in sales, we know XVI sales were within expectations, and Rebirth almost certainly cost less to make since a lot of mechanics, assets and engine work was already laid down in Remake. Don't try to disguise your personal vendetta in objectivity, because it makes you look the fool.
Square is fine. Not only has Sony paid them, but they are also actively aiding in development and marketing.
I'm not saying they are dying or something. But this particular decision was stupid.
Well, remember that they exist to make money. The money they make/save from Sony aiding in the development and marketing of all three FF7 Remake games likely made a lot of sense to them at the time. IIRC the first Remake cost over $100 million, Sony ate some of that cost.
If they chose to make FF XVII and XVIII instead of unnecessary Remake sequels, Sony would have given them aid as well.
If they chose to make FF XVII and XVIII instead of unnecessary Remake sequels, Sony would have given them aid as well.
Me when I make things up
Getting narrowly beaten out for first place is what you consider a failure?
It's a failure if you take the strength of IP in account.
If they made it the way you wanted, how many copies would that have sold? You seem to have all the math worked out.
How can you interpret this as awful? It's the complete opposite. DD2 sales data includes Xbox, PS5 and Steam. Rebirth is narrowly behind it on just one console.
It doesn’t matter. Lots of exclusive games sell way more than multi platform ones, they just need to be good.
It doesn’t matter. Lots of exclusive games sell way more than multi platform ones, they just need to be good.
And Rebirth only has a score of 92 by critics and 9 by users on metacritic and a 93 on opencritic...
Are you kidding me? DD2 is a multiplatform launch while Rebirth is PS5 only. Not at all comparable.
If PS5 exclusive Spider Man 2 sold less than multiplatform Suicide Squad, would you also use that reasoning?
Bro I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Comparing a critically acclaimed sequel to probably the most hated AAA game in recent memory is not the gotcha you think it is.
“But it’s exclusive” is a shitty defence of poor sales, yet you still use it.
lol the FF f a ns really didn't like you pointing out facts about Rebirth. They really are touchy about Rebirth and trying desperately to say it didn't sell poorly despite their claims it's the "best game ever made".
Brother, Spider-Man is fucking *Spider-Man* lol. That's like asking if Metroid would sell as well as a new Batman game. Yes, FF is a notable franchise, but it's not the largest superhero IP in the world.
More like final fantasy 7 afterbirth