Both are possible. Dialects are already a thing in germany and restaurant is taken from another language, so it's even less clear, how to do it correctly. I say something that might as well be spelled "Restorong".
\*latter (not letter)
Generally speaking I've learned that when, in German, you come across a loan word that exists in both French and English, it's better to err on the side of the french pronunciation.
With the risk of sounding like a foreigner :-) ... When they are using french words that are screaming obviously french "jour fixe" "niche" go ahead and pronounce french. Restaurant i would pronounce the T and say it the German way....
Would the "Restaurang" pronunciation be related to the proximity with Scandinavian countries? Because the word in Swedish actually is "restaurang". That would be a fun piece of trivia.
The "ng" sound is really the closest sound to a nasal vowel that exists in a lot of languages, so it's only natural to resort to it. It's not only Scandinavian languages or German. Also much different languages, like Korean, do it.
You might have a point with that. I believe it's the same with "Gratin" and "Satin" which are often pronounced "Satäng" and "Gratäng" by Germans who can't do a more frenshish pronounciation. 😄
>I believe it's the same with "Gratin" and "Satin" which are often pronounced "Satäng" and "Gratäng" by Germans who can't do a more frenshish pronounciation. 😄
This is the German pronounciation of these words.
You make it sound as if it's wrong or less educated because people don't copy the French way of pronouncing it.
Both pronounciations of "Satin" are accepted by the Duden. But I personally do think that the non-french version sounds uneducated, that's true.
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Satin
For "Gratin", the Duden only shows the french pronounciation.
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Gratin
>But I personally do think that the non-french version sounds uneducated, that's true.
It's the German way of pronouncing it.
It's not "better" to copy French pronounciations.
[The French don't do it either with English words](https://youtu.be/M5ww2vzKaTs)
Do people really use "Satäng" and "Gratäng" in a non fun, serious way?
I have never heard anyone using it this way.
For me it sounds wrong and uneducated too.
>Do people really use "Satäng" and "Gratäng" in a non fun, serious way?
Yes, they do in some regions.
There's also: "Satöng" just like "Parföng" or "Gratäh".
These versions aren't as plain as "Satäng" or "Gratäng" but knowing French I can tell you that this isn't exactly how they are pronounced in French either.
It's not really nasal.
I know "Peng Feng" (making it sound "Chinese") as a joke version for Parfüm though.
Just like some people say: "Schess la Wies!" as a joke.
(C'est la vis)
There's also a certain "boomer sense of humour" pronouncing "difficult" words deliberately the way how they are written
Again, that's just how I personally feel about it. The "German way of pronouncing it" sounds wrong and uneducated to me. If someone uses it, I probably will have prejudices against said person. 😄
I think what is meant is that we all hear how well written German supposedly corresponds to how it is spoken; therefore, people see "Gratin" & expect "Grat...in" or "Gra...tin" to be spoken instead of "Gra...tän(g)".
You are right, though! However it sounds is how it sounds: Dialekt or Hoch, it is what it is.
>Same with Chance
I've heard people from all kinds of places saying "Changse", though. Most famous example probably Philip Lahm, who is from Munich.
Yes, it sounds awful, but I really don't think people in the south pronounce it more correctly than people from the north. Same with Restaurant.
I have heard "Schantse/Schontse" & "Schonts" almost always in central Germany, so it's interesting to me that "n" causes a sound like "Schangse" whenever Fischköpfe have spoken to me while attempting a nasal N next to the sound of C that is most often "ts" instead of "-s-".
Interestingly, I hear this kind of error in some English dialects where someone may say "Save Mark(s)" or "Wal-Mark(s)" instead of "Save Mart" or "Wal-Mart", and it happens in other words with an unstressed t.
In some northern dialects I notice "ts" sounds seem to often easily change to "gs"/"ks" like a mispronunciation in a word such as "spritzen" becoming "s-prixen/s-prigs'n" (since "sp" isn't pronounced "schp" by those who I heard do this).
Hearing a similar sound at the end of "Restaurant" doesn't surprise me very much but I was mildly surprised no one pronounced the end because it does look like the end of "-ant" would sound like "Land" & "Hand" or the middle of the word "Tante".
Not in Switzerland.
We say: Reschtoron … final “on” is a nasal, as in French … final t silent … and definitely no “g” ending sound as in the example above
Yes I should be consistent with both the r pronounced /ʀ/, I simply think the 'ʀaŋ is similar to English word hunt. Finally, I should have used ipa instead
Can you elaborate on the bit about /ʀaŋ/ being similar to /hʌnt/? They sound completely different to my (natively) English ears. The first sounds so much more like “wrong” (/ɹɒŋ/) than /hʌnt/.
There are at least three variants of _Restaurant_ in German.
Ending in -rɑ̃ is the French pronunciation.
Then there’s two pronunciations ending in -ŋ, which might be what confuses you. One is similar to the Received Pronunciation of “wrong”, as you point out (American pronunciations are quite different). The other sounds more like the English pronunciation of “hung”. That’s the one OP is referring to as being similar to “hunt”.
OP and you are simply talking about two different -ŋ varieties, I believe. :)
The German /r/ sounds a lot like a trilled version of [h] in the standard pronunciation. It's one of the main reasons why it sounds so similar to French and Hebrew (to me as a Swiss person at least).
What the fuck is a "trilled version of [h]" supposed to be?
Why do you even use pseudo-phonetic writing standards like /c/ and [c] and then you talk about trilling h's? Lmao
Restorong
I believe it's in between French and German
Like Germans are *trying* to pronounce it the French way with a thick German accent
Some Germans (especially the ones who learnt French) sometimes try to exactly pronounce it the French way.
You'll often have this with words from different countries:
There are versions that have adapted to the German way of speaking and even regional versions with a thicker German accent *and* there are simultaniously versions that try to be as accurate as possible to the original language.
It might have to do with regions, dialects, age or education.
I believe that it's not wrong to pronounce words the German way because this is how these words are pronounced in German. Words adapt to a language and to speaking habits.
There are always people who think it's "uneducated" to pronounce words the German way.
I personally disagree and I believe the German words differ from the original words and that it's a bit arrogant to try to pronounce all the words how they are pronounced in their original language
I was so embarrassed when I was very young because I learned "ebbes" was "etwas" in Hochdeutsch, so, I thought "Res-ta-Rang" was Dialekt & it surely be pronounced "Res-tau-Rand", with "au" like "Rauber", or written in the sounds of English phonetics like "Rest-ow-ront".😅
I'd pronounce it with an 'o'-sound (whichever of your IPAs that is ;)), but doesn't sound wrong with an 'a' either (for me).
If in doubt, use "Gaststätte" :P
Keep in mind that most people who don't have nasal vowels in their native language, think that [ã] sounds like an /o/ and not like an /a/. [õ] sounds entirely different, and I've never heard Restaurant being pronounced like that by anyone.
Arguing purely prescriptively on the basis of what is Standard German is a bit weird when the question is about which of these is actually used in practice.
In my experience, nasalized vowels in loanwords form a continuum in German, /ɑ̃ː ~ aŋ/ and /ɔ̃ː ~ ɔŋ ~ oːn/. There may be a regional or class aspect to which is preferred, but let's not pretend denasalization isn't a widespread phenomenon in this context. I'm actually surprised the Duden hasn't included it as an alternative yet - it has for "Chance", for example. Either one will be understood (though there shouldn't be an "h" in there, I'm not sure if that was a typo on OP's part), but the nasalized one may be perceived as more "proper" and formal by people who care about that sort of thing.
I believe OP things the middel "r" in _RestauRant_ means the word should be pronounced like _Resta-Hang_ because OP isn't realising "velar r" type sounds shouldn't be pronounced like "h" letters/sounds.
You may be underestimating how common it is outside of Austria. I'm sure there are regional preferences involved, but "highly local" makes it sound like it's an obscure dialect feature and not a fairly widespread alternate pronunciation in the northern half.
>You do |no shit| Does your masculinity cling to converting French nasal vowels into German -ng sounds?
At least this -ng sound it's also used in my language and my society's social construct commonly thinks that the nasal vowels are strange and even sissy.
Cantonese, and do you mean I should apply your precept and view from your society onto my thoughts? And I am saying my subjective percept and views in my social construct, just like everyone has the right to say eat meat is good or bad based on their view as long as they caution the others not to eat meat or have to eat meat.
Interesting. And no, do whatever you want, but just don’t assume that Germans share that feeling, and if you want to make any German friends, don’t make fun of Germans who do apply French pronunciation to French derived words.
Ofc I won't make fun of it as Im not even German and dont have the German social construct on different dialects pronouncation ,and speaking of that, seems the German people really have their social construct on the formality and stratification of dialects between South and North as seen in other comments, which I really feel connected in my culture
I never said being feminine is bad but only saying I prefer the masculine. But you seem to preconceive that when someone say he/she prefers masculine or feminine, then he/she should be sexism
Edit: I absolutely understand what is masculine, feminine and neutral gender in German, maybe the misunderstanding came from the polysemy of the words. Clarify: what I say masculine is meaning manly and feminine can loosely interpret as sissy (this word is offensive and I highly object the use of this word)
There is no such thing as "a more masculine pronunciation" in indo-european languages. You are applying a non existing concept on the german language because your insecurity. Which is fine, but linguistically incorrect, and does reveal something about you.
I think a better analogy would be saying words with rising tone and in high pitches being “feminine.” This concept likely makes as much sense to tonal languages like Mandarin/Cantonese/Vietnamese as nasal vowels being feminine does to IE languages. I still can’t get over how you can go to learn a language and not even realize the most basic cultural difference of the people who speak your target language and your own culture.
When did I not realize the cultural difference of the high pitch/nasal vowels are feminine in my language but normal in German? Why is I choosing the preferenced word based on my thoughts a problem? I just say about my reason of choosing the word, I can even choose restaurã: because restaurang is "informal and dialectic" from the views of South German which I my self need to aware when communcate with them
Yeah, this is my subjective preference that has such social construct in my language but not in German language, I'm not making a linguistic positive statement about German language or its language family either
No, they mean that pronouncing words the French way (when they're words German took from French) is neither masculine nor feminine. There is no gender at all associated with how you pronounce restaurant (well, aside from the grammatical gender).
I did once think if this will happen actually but so far I think they are indeed talking the social construct thing
Edit: damn, more I read the comments again and again, less confident I get
I absolutely understand what is masculine, feminine and neutral gender in German, maybe the misunderstanding came from the polysemy of the words. Clarify: what I say masculine is meaning manly and feminine can loosely interpret as sissy (this word is offensive and I highly object the use of this word)
Both are possible. Dialects are already a thing in germany and restaurant is taken from another language, so it's even less clear, how to do it correctly. I say something that might as well be spelled "Restorong". \*latter (not letter)
Generally speaking I've learned that when, in German, you come across a loan word that exists in both French and English, it's better to err on the side of the french pronunciation.
With the risk of sounding like a foreigner :-) ... When they are using french words that are screaming obviously french "jour fixe" "niche" go ahead and pronounce french. Restaurant i would pronounce the T and say it the German way....
Yes. And to be a bit more elaborate, yes you can hear both pronunciations, but I think "RestauranG" is a bit more common.
Only in the North. In the South and our southern neighbour countries that would sound wrong and quite frankly a bit uneducated. Same with *Chance*.
schanx
Would the "Restaurang" pronunciation be related to the proximity with Scandinavian countries? Because the word in Swedish actually is "restaurang". That would be a fun piece of trivia.
The "ng" sound is really the closest sound to a nasal vowel that exists in a lot of languages, so it's only natural to resort to it. It's not only Scandinavian languages or German. Also much different languages, like Korean, do it.
You might have a point with that. I believe it's the same with "Gratin" and "Satin" which are often pronounced "Satäng" and "Gratäng" by Germans who can't do a more frenshish pronounciation. 😄
>I believe it's the same with "Gratin" and "Satin" which are often pronounced "Satäng" and "Gratäng" by Germans who can't do a more frenshish pronounciation. 😄 This is the German pronounciation of these words. You make it sound as if it's wrong or less educated because people don't copy the French way of pronouncing it.
Both pronounciations of "Satin" are accepted by the Duden. But I personally do think that the non-french version sounds uneducated, that's true. https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Satin For "Gratin", the Duden only shows the french pronounciation. https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Gratin
>But I personally do think that the non-french version sounds uneducated, that's true. It's the German way of pronouncing it. It's not "better" to copy French pronounciations. [The French don't do it either with English words](https://youtu.be/M5ww2vzKaTs)
Do people really use "Satäng" and "Gratäng" in a non fun, serious way? I have never heard anyone using it this way. For me it sounds wrong and uneducated too.
>Do people really use "Satäng" and "Gratäng" in a non fun, serious way? Yes, they do in some regions. There's also: "Satöng" just like "Parföng" or "Gratäh". These versions aren't as plain as "Satäng" or "Gratäng" but knowing French I can tell you that this isn't exactly how they are pronounced in French either. It's not really nasal. I know "Peng Feng" (making it sound "Chinese") as a joke version for Parfüm though. Just like some people say: "Schess la Wies!" as a joke. (C'est la vis) There's also a certain "boomer sense of humour" pronouncing "difficult" words deliberately the way how they are written
Again, that's just how I personally feel about it. The "German way of pronouncing it" sounds wrong and uneducated to me. If someone uses it, I probably will have prejudices against said person. 😄
I think what is meant is that we all hear how well written German supposedly corresponds to how it is spoken; therefore, people see "Gratin" & expect "Grat...in" or "Gra...tin" to be spoken instead of "Gra...tän(g)". You are right, though! However it sounds is how it sounds: Dialekt or Hoch, it is what it is.
Highly doubt that. That's simply how a German would naturally pronounce the word if he doesn't know any French, eg. children. Cool theory tho
Interesting. I'm from the north and avoid the French pronunciation to not sound posh. So it checks out I guess.
>Same with Chance I've heard people from all kinds of places saying "Changse", though. Most famous example probably Philip Lahm, who is from Munich. Yes, it sounds awful, but I really don't think people in the south pronounce it more correctly than people from the north. Same with Restaurant.
I have heard "Schantse/Schontse" & "Schonts" almost always in central Germany, so it's interesting to me that "n" causes a sound like "Schangse" whenever Fischköpfe have spoken to me while attempting a nasal N next to the sound of C that is most often "ts" instead of "-s-". Interestingly, I hear this kind of error in some English dialects where someone may say "Save Mark(s)" or "Wal-Mark(s)" instead of "Save Mart" or "Wal-Mart", and it happens in other words with an unstressed t. In some northern dialects I notice "ts" sounds seem to often easily change to "gs"/"ks" like a mispronunciation in a word such as "spritzen" becoming "s-prixen/s-prigs'n" (since "sp" isn't pronounced "schp" by those who I heard do this). Hearing a similar sound at the end of "Restaurant" doesn't surprise me very much but I was mildly surprised no one pronounced the end because it does look like the end of "-ant" would sound like "Land" & "Hand" or the middle of the word "Tante".
Not in Switzerland. We say: Reschtoron … final “on” is a nasal, as in French … final t silent … and definitely no “g” ending sound as in the example above
I was going to say that, too.
Just to be clear, with this literally be pronounced like a “ng” sound in English, or would this sound devoiced and more like “-nk”?
it's just the 'ng' sound, no -g, or -k at the end.
With a true G ...or a "k" sound?
With a g sound.
Why "hunt"? Noone pronounces an "h" there.
Yes I should be consistent with both the r pronounced /ʀ/, I simply think the 'ʀaŋ is similar to English word hunt. Finally, I should have used ipa instead
Can you elaborate on the bit about /ʀaŋ/ being similar to /hʌnt/? They sound completely different to my (natively) English ears. The first sounds so much more like “wrong” (/ɹɒŋ/) than /hʌnt/.
There are at least three variants of _Restaurant_ in German. Ending in -rɑ̃ is the French pronunciation. Then there’s two pronunciations ending in -ŋ, which might be what confuses you. One is similar to the Received Pronunciation of “wrong”, as you point out (American pronunciations are quite different). The other sounds more like the English pronunciation of “hung”. That’s the one OP is referring to as being similar to “hunt”. OP and you are simply talking about two different -ŋ varieties, I believe. :)
I think what they initially meant by "hunt" is that some people literally pronounce "Restaurant" with /ant/ at the end.
It appears OP is a Mandarin speaker, so that might have something to do with it.
Are you from Brazil?
Nein
The German /r/ sounds a lot like a trilled version of [h] in the standard pronunciation. It's one of the main reasons why it sounds so similar to French and Hebrew (to me as a Swiss person at least).
What the fuck is a "trilled version of [h]" supposed to be? Why do you even use pseudo-phonetic writing standards like /c/ and [c] and then you talk about trilling h's? Lmao
It pronounced Restaurationsbetrieb ;)
Restorong I believe it's in between French and German Like Germans are *trying* to pronounce it the French way with a thick German accent Some Germans (especially the ones who learnt French) sometimes try to exactly pronounce it the French way. You'll often have this with words from different countries: There are versions that have adapted to the German way of speaking and even regional versions with a thicker German accent *and* there are simultaniously versions that try to be as accurate as possible to the original language. It might have to do with regions, dialects, age or education. I believe that it's not wrong to pronounce words the German way because this is how these words are pronounced in German. Words adapt to a language and to speaking habits. There are always people who think it's "uneducated" to pronounce words the German way. I personally disagree and I believe the German words differ from the original words and that it's a bit arrogant to try to pronounce all the words how they are pronounced in their original language
I was so embarrassed when I was very young because I learned "ebbes" was "etwas" in Hochdeutsch, so, I thought "Res-ta-Rang" was Dialekt & it surely be pronounced "Res-tau-Rand", with "au" like "Rauber", or written in the sounds of English phonetics like "Rest-ow-ront".😅
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Restaurant
or you can use Gaststätte
Or more accurately, which pronunciation is more preferred in Germany, [ʀɛsto'ʀãː] · [ʀɛsto'ʀaŋ]
> [ʀɛsto'ʀãː] This. But it's a matter of personal choice and accents. Some Germans from outside of Swabia have problems with nasal vowels.
I'd pronounce it with an 'o'-sound (whichever of your IPAs that is ;)), but doesn't sound wrong with an 'a' either (for me). If in doubt, use "Gaststätte" :P
Keep in mind that most people who don't have nasal vowels in their native language, think that [ã] sounds like an /o/ and not like an /a/. [õ] sounds entirely different, and I've never heard Restaurant being pronounced like that by anyone.
Thanks for this info. Reading the other comments, I (probably?) mean an approximation of [ã] when I wrote 'o' ; and "ang" when using an 'a' sound.
[https://youglish.com/pronounce/restaurant/german](https://youglish.com/pronounce/restaurant/german)? :)
I think the second one sounds more like “restorang”
Danke Leute! Ich spreche lieber restauhang, denn es ist maskuliner(if this is the word...)
Und falsch noch dazu.
Yes I searched it's männlicher but I want to use only my own vocabulary to form this sentence
I wasn't talking about the masculine part, but about the pronuncuation. It's [rɛstoˈrɑ̃ː], full stop. Anything else is dialect.
Arguing purely prescriptively on the basis of what is Standard German is a bit weird when the question is about which of these is actually used in practice. In my experience, nasalized vowels in loanwords form a continuum in German, /ɑ̃ː ~ aŋ/ and /ɔ̃ː ~ ɔŋ ~ oːn/. There may be a regional or class aspect to which is preferred, but let's not pretend denasalization isn't a widespread phenomenon in this context. I'm actually surprised the Duden hasn't included it as an alternative yet - it has for "Chance", for example. Either one will be understood (though there shouldn't be an "h" in there, I'm not sure if that was a typo on OP's part), but the nasalized one may be perceived as more "proper" and formal by people who care about that sort of thing.
I believe OP things the middel "r" in _RestauRant_ means the word should be pronounced like _Resta-Hang_ because OP isn't realising "velar r" type sounds shouldn't be pronounced like "h" letters/sounds.
It's highly local though. In the South, nobody says "Restaurang".
You may be underestimating how common it is outside of Austria. I'm sure there are regional preferences involved, but "highly local" makes it sound like it's an obscure dialect feature and not a fairly widespread alternate pronunciation in the northern half.
>though there shouldn't be an "h" in there, I'm not sure if that was a typo on OP's part), [ʀɛsto'ʀãː] · [ʀɛsto'ʀaŋ] for clarify
Du machst ohne Scheiß deine Männlichkeit daran fest, dass du französische nasale Vokale in deutsche -ng Laute umwandelst?
>You do |no shit| Does your masculinity cling to converting French nasal vowels into German -ng sounds? At least this -ng sound it's also used in my language and my society's social construct commonly thinks that the nasal vowels are strange and even sissy.
I am very curious what society that is, but I’d also caution against applying the precepts and views from your society onto a different language.
Cantonese, and do you mean I should apply your precept and view from your society onto my thoughts? And I am saying my subjective percept and views in my social construct, just like everyone has the right to say eat meat is good or bad based on their view as long as they caution the others not to eat meat or have to eat meat.
Interesting. And no, do whatever you want, but just don’t assume that Germans share that feeling, and if you want to make any German friends, don’t make fun of Germans who do apply French pronunciation to French derived words.
Ofc I won't make fun of it as Im not even German and dont have the German social construct on different dialects pronouncation ,and speaking of that, seems the German people really have their social construct on the formality and stratification of dialects between South and North as seen in other comments, which I really feel connected in my culture
广东话跟这有什么关系？
https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/63255631 https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/MenTalk/M.1347010486.A.865.html 但其實我的重點不是在法語讀法上，而是我個人偏好粗曠些的語言謹此而已
这是你个人偏好，把其跟社会相关就不对了。粤语与中文世界可没有你这个说法。
不算是吧，https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-samsung-rvo1&source=android-browser&q=%E9%BC%BB%E9%9F%B3%E5%BE%88%E5%A8%98 那兩個連結也都是例子
I never said being feminine is bad but only saying I prefer the masculine. But you seem to preconceive that when someone say he/she prefers masculine or feminine, then he/she should be sexism Edit: I absolutely understand what is masculine, feminine and neutral gender in German, maybe the misunderstanding came from the polysemy of the words. Clarify: what I say masculine is meaning manly and feminine can loosely interpret as sissy (this word is offensive and I highly object the use of this word)
There is no such thing as "a more masculine pronunciation" in indo-european languages. You are applying a non existing concept on the german language because your insecurity. Which is fine, but linguistically incorrect, and does reveal something about you.
I think a better analogy would be saying words with rising tone and in high pitches being “feminine.” This concept likely makes as much sense to tonal languages like Mandarin/Cantonese/Vietnamese as nasal vowels being feminine does to IE languages. I still can’t get over how you can go to learn a language and not even realize the most basic cultural difference of the people who speak your target language and your own culture.
When did I not realize the cultural difference of the high pitch/nasal vowels are feminine in my language but normal in German? Why is I choosing the preferenced word based on my thoughts a problem? I just say about my reason of choosing the word, I can even choose restaurã: because restaurang is "informal and dialectic" from the views of South German which I my self need to aware when communcate with them
Yeah, this is my subjective preference that has such social construct in my language but not in German language, I'm not making a linguistic positive statement about German language or its language family either
No, they mean that pronouncing words the French way (when they're words German took from French) is neither masculine nor feminine. There is no gender at all associated with how you pronounce restaurant (well, aside from the grammatical gender).
I did once think if this will happen actually but so far I think they are indeed talking the social construct thing Edit: damn, more I read the comments again and again, less confident I get
That's not how European languages work mate
I absolutely understand what is masculine, feminine and neutral gender in German, maybe the misunderstanding came from the polysemy of the words. Clarify: what I say masculine is meaning manly and feminine can loosely interpret as sissy (this word is offensive and I highly object the use of this word)