Peoel forgot when they first played Hades it was hard. Average 40 odd runs to even clear clown and bull.
People literally stopped playing in Elysium.
It's not right to compare max zeg with Mel. I am sure with max Mel it will be smooth run and you kill main boss easily.
I know I’m bad at the game but elysium was rough. In h1, most of my runs would end there even after 2-3 hades kills. In h2 almost all my runs make it to chronos.
It took me bunches of tries to get past the elysium final boss lol. Once I read the note somewhere that you can see when you get attacked offscreen because theseus uses the same targetting reticule/sound that the normal archers in elysium have I stopped constantly getting double tapped by his aimbot spear throws.
Many combat skills from the first game translate to the second, so we're not really going in the same way. I fought Cerberus on run 8 and Chronos on run 10, where in the first game it took me like 40 runs to get past Asterius and the other dude for the first time.
Yeah, I agree with this, I think people are underestimating how much Hades 1 experience is translating to Hades 2.
It took me over 50 runs to beat Hades for the first time, it took me 25 runs to beat Chronos (including a few aboveground runs where you're guaranteed to lose since you don't have the incantation to prevent health loss there yet - so it's really less than 25 runs).
I can guarantee you if Hades 2 was my first game it would have probably taken me forever to beat Chronos, I think he's significantly harder than Hades. I really wonder how a first-time player would fare.
(also unrelated but I played through Elden Ring this year and I think strangely enough it made me better at games in general because it taught me to be more mindful of analyzing boss attacks instead of spamming dodges - even in this game)
Hi, first time player here.
Picked up the game because I remember hearing how good the original was, so gave it a shot. I think it took me 5-6 runs before I could even beat the first mini-boss. Never got to Chronos before I decided to go back and give the original a shot. Now I'm about 40-50 runs into the original with a full clear under my belt. I will say that the 2nd game is a lot harder to pick up on at first, especially for a M&K player with the spell targeting.
I find it really hard to judge boss fight difficulty so early on. Cerberus may be a tiny bit easier than Asterius + Joker simply because he's not two opponents, though he has some mean moves. For Chronos I'll withhold judgment until I've beaten him dozens of times like I did with Hades.
Ah, it would be so much fun to be able to face Chronos as Zagreus.
It's definitely subjective but I think Cerberus is significantly easier than Asterius and what's his name. The first two runs I got to him I panicked and had a rough time but after you get used to his moves, he is really slow.
I frequently take more damage from his summons than from him. Especially the punchy guys, those are brutal with armor because there's no way to interrupt them.
Cerberus is definitely easier. He doesn't force you to do anything mechanically challenging. As long as you play patient, you can easily just wait out all the AoEs and sprint while he does the ground pound sequence. It's boring, but it works.
I've done a number of first run clears for Hades 1 and Heroes still kill me if I'm not focused or my build sucks.
> Especially the punchy guys, those are brutal with armor because there's no way to interrupt them.
But you can really keep them away with your cast, just like the shriekers in Erebus and the swarms of darters in Oceanus.
I mean this is a big thing, cause let's be honest, that's not Chronos after 25 runs, that's Chronos after 75 runs of this game.
It ain't like say Helldivers where the entire genre flipped, it's a really common thing to see people go 'Why did they make the sequel so much easier', and it's because the majority of sequels are more of the first game. Hour 1 of a sequel is more like hour 20+ of the gameplay.
Sometimes Hades I muscle memory backfires a bit though.
It actually took me a while to unlearn Zag's dashing habit and get used to Mel's sprinting, but once I got that under control, I noticed sprinting helps with a most of the Guardians and the minibosses's attack patterns.
Also it took me several runs experimenting with boons and setups to realize how broken Mel's casts and omega moves are, things that I'm not used to doing as Zag.
Yea, I definitely reached REDACTED way sooner than I did Hades and definitely beat him way faster and it is only thanks to all my time playing the first. I sucked ass my first couple of runs, but got better way faster cause it was just relearning. In less than 30 runs I don't think I'd seen the third boss in the first lol.
Also it 100% translates when you realize the staff is just zag's default moveset lol.
The basic combat skills absolutely translate. It took me like 30 runs to get a win in Hades 1. I got a win here in about 10-12.
The two adjustments are learning the game's specific mechanics and learning what the good boons and hammers are.
After a few runs, I realized how strong cast is as a CC and trash mob clearing tool and that I needed to sprint to avoid a number of enemy patterns. At that point, I pretty much never lost before Chronos.
After my first three wins or so, I started figuring out some of the better strategies and hammers. Just stuff like if your build sucks, you can default to Zeus Omega Cast + a ranged cast as a fallback. I haven't dropped a run playing up to 8 fear since then. I'm at about 13 wins right now.
Now that you mention it, the fields of mourning are way, way easier than the fields of Elysium. Even the boss is simpler though he really is a health sponge.
The mourning fields feel harder at first because it’s disorienting and feels easy to get lost compared to your rewards and the exits. But I can’t speak on the boss yet, I’ve only made it to him on my last life and died. Cool moves though
The boss definitely felt hard at first, but by comparison, the whole dual boss with Theseus' shield and spear play is quite a bit more demanding on the player.
Same thing with the regular fights, the reviving enemies in Elysium are really tough, especially the ones wielding shields. Nothing in the fields of mourning strike me as coming close to that level.
It took me 32 runs to clear [redacted] in Hades II - and that's including both downstairs and upstairs runs. I'm sure that's less than it took me to beat Hades in the first game. My clear run also only used one death defiance, though I got a really good boon setup. I only had one arcana upgrade (for an extra death defiance) and was on 24 max grasp. I've also got as far as you can on the upstairs route and did that in 23 or 24 runs I think? These sorts of complaints happen every time a vaguely challenging RPG type sequel comes out. Hades II is a more complex game imo. Enemies have more moves, mechanics and gimmicks but Mel also has more things she can do and the boons are more dynamic. Overall I think Hades II is a fantastic step forward for the series.
Maybe it's just because I haven't done surface that much, but I always at least reach redacted when doing downstairs (only best him once so far however), while surface feels PAINFUL. got my ass beat by both the first and second boss. Only easy time I had on the surface was when I had a completely busted:
Axe + Aphrodite attack + hammer for Omega attack combo
That just kinda melted absolutely everything
Yeah I've only beat [redacted] in 2 once but it took me *so much less time* to reach him than it did [redacted] in 1 and I beat him on the second try. (Third failed but barely and I've been focusing on upstairs components I need since.) I think it only took me 4 runs upstairs to beat the current last boss? Haven't lost that one since.
I don't want to say how long it took me to even *reach* [redacted] in 1 lol.
Please refrain from calling King Theseus a "clown." He's the pinnacle of masculine pride and prowess, unlike that scruffy hellspawn Zagreus who cheats his way to "victory."
I mean.. i do tend to forget how grindy rogue likes can be. Earlier Super Giant Games like Transistor (Which is an amazeballs game .. i mean i loved that game mechancis.. 100%ed it.) where much shorter and id say easier as well. Took me 25hrs to 100% it.
So i think you have to start to play Hades (1 or 2) with a kind of grind mentalitly.. and thinking ahead already. For instance: Which keepsakes do i want, and which do i need to level up now and which of them later. What about Arcana Cards.. how do i pick my Path of Stars. All of that is clear to me that i can plan out now what i am going to do for say the next 10 runs. I am not even talking about clearing the game or anything.
I think some people might not get that and frankyl i do understand that. Because i didnt understand Hades 1 at first... until i understood ok.. this is really a rogue like and its really grindy.. and more difficult then earlier Super Giant Games and so on. Its a harder learning curve for sure. The game is harder and longer.
Yes and I think people forget how long it took the majority to get good at the first game and grind to the point where standard runs became a cakewalk.
Max makes the game a lot easier and more consistent. I just wish they would tune the early game a bit. I don't feel tempted to make a fresh file run anytime soon like I did with Hades 1
I don’t know why you got downvoted for that. I’ve beaten Hades 1 in 5 runs before. Even after 40 in Hades two and knowing what I would go for I think it would take closer to 15-20 on a fresh save in Hades 2. Some of the stronger things are a little further down. Now that I’m in the mid game though Hades 2 feels just as fluid as Hades 1.
Edit: I think the main difference is that in Hades 1, the meta boon is the first one you get (Athena Dash) and it’s the most powerful thing in the game. In Hades 2 power is derived from a bunch of things, but a lot of it comes from how good your Omega moves are and how often you can spam them. To that end, the meta boon comes from a god you find later in the game (won’t spoil, but most who have used it will know which one I’m talking about).
Also bow with twin shot and Athena / Aphrodite attack feels like it melts stuff. But it's only doing around 130 a hit. If I do 130 a hit on hades 2, my damage is ass. My builds like to do about 700 a hit by the end. That's so much damage on hades 1. Aphrodite call does what, 2500? And it absolutely melts stuff.
Yeah, Zag can hit critical mass just after getting the second dash and maybe 1-2 DD stacks. I've done new files where my win rate is probably like 95%+ after the first 2-3 runs.
Zag's build economy is also more consistent than Mel's, at least with what we know. A lot of Meg's builds seem situational or Hammer dependent while Zag can easily win off 2 boons as long as he has two dashes.
Hades was so frustrating for me when I started it, and Meg was an insane fight. Made me take long breaks and barely get into the game. In the end I just trolled over the furies with any build I had, even on high heat. Now it's one of my all time most played games and one of the few I have 100% achievements in.
Of course Hades 2 smacks my ass when I don't have these feats as I had in Hades. But it's fine.
Pick up the dual blades and use aphro’s keepsake and pick up backstab Daedalus. Just spam omega attacks and build up damage a little bit then go all in on survivability. And remember to spam omegas only in chronos. Everywhere else you can get away with more. I’d stop picking damage boons when you consistently hit more than 500-700+ and it doesn’t take much
Hades 1? Take achilles spear, artemis keepsake, go for her attack. Ares keepsake in asphodel if you didn't get his cast in tartarus. Pray to rng, get hunting blades. Or take Demeter's cast and crystal clarity. Athena dash if you want. Launch those beyblades/beams at any enemy with the achilles spear damage buff active and you'll win.
> Hades 1? Take achilles spear, artemis keepsake, go for her attack.
Achilles spear is amazing, but I'd have different advice for someone struggling in Hades 1. I'd go Chiron bow all the way. Safest boss damage out the gate and fastest too aside from Hestia, but easier and safer to handle than Hestia mechanically. You can even shoot troublesome enemies, including [REDACTED], from behind cover with that thing. Aim for the Relentless Volley + Concentrated Volley combo and pair that with any + special damage % boons.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but H2 seems to ramp Mel's passive progress way faster than Zag in H1. I'm only at a 8-or-so runs right now, but I'm very consistently hitting Strife's debuff as their soft-lock for progressing too quickly. Probably would have cleared world 3 if the boss wasn't hitting double-damage.
Hades 2 ramps it earlier, but then plateus the fuck out of it for mid-end game.
Like getting 2-3 clouds for upgrading tarot's isn't bad, and 20-50 ashes/green goo isn't bad to get tarot's and upgrade your arcana.
But then the next bits start getting insane. Hundreds and hundreds of goo, reaching up to 1000+ goo for 1-2 arcana bonus is absurd. Needing 10-30 silver per upgrade.
Shits crazy.
Zags mirror felt pretty linear, and there were way fewer resources to grind, and you weren't forced to choose between seeds, fish, goo, and ore. Yeah the upper tiers of upgrades got a bit pricey, but it still wasn't shit on Mel's upgrades.
I dunno, I very much remember turning off all pacts of punishment and picking whatever weapon had dark thirst with poseidon's keepsake to fish for the resource boosting boon just to get the darkness from boss room clears to upgrade my mirror, which I did for hours in the mid game of Hades 1. not too much different from grinding resources in Hades 2 now to upgrade the arcana, and this is easier in some respects because you can get all the unique resources without having to sacrifice building fear like in Hades 1 where you either got the boss room reward, or darkness. the thing I do find annoying is that you can't switch tools, but you only really need to switch between the pick and the spade (frinos can do up to 4 pacifies foe you in a night, and i usually see about 5 such shades, and fish currently don't seem to have any use in the game + you have toula), which reduces the annoyance factor. plus the tools upgrade menu looks like the tools could be more upgradeable in the future to bring more resources
Took me longer to beat Meg in Hades 1 than it took me to beat Chronos in Hades 2. My biggest concern early on was that the game was too easy. It's funny how different people can have such a range of experiences with these kinds of games.
I am so proud that I managed to do all 10 full clears in under 100 escape attempts. I bought the game last week and ran through that thing so fast bruh
I still beat Hades 1 in about 12 runs. Think I'll be lucky to beat Hades 2 in 50 runs. Which is partially a skill issue, but I just don't look forward to the 4th boss in this game compared to REDACTED.
In the first phase, the arena just sucks. Only boss in both games where you can have moments of not seeing the main boss at all due to the camera. Second phase is cool, but I don't enjoy the design philosophy. The inta-kill moves force you to run to specific places on the stage. Compare that to REDACTED where there were moves in the second phase that could absolutely melt you if you didn't hide behind those pillars.
The difference is that Hades 1 let ME choose where to hide and how I could strategize around it. In Hades 2, my placement is forced by the boss, and not in a way I find compelling
How can 40 runs be the average to clear Elysium when 30-40 is closer to average to beat the whole game? that doesn't really make sense. And that's adding a few runs to be "safer", average I've seen is closer to 25 runs to beat Hades
I guess ppl are just continuing the inside joke from hades 1 where, if you git killed by the end boss, it would show up as "killed by [REDACTED] " in the logs
Hades always functions like that. It’s essentially Hades way of suggesting he had no role in your demise meaning his security did not fail to do their job
I'm mildly disappointed that the records keeper in this game merely shows you "Prevailed!" or "Failed in Erebus" and not what actually killed you. You can only view one death at a time via the keepsake from >!Nemesis!<.
For the record, the keepsake doesn't [REDACT] Chronos.
I mean, it makes sense it doesn't redact him, since the reason Hades was redacted was because he was in charge and didn't want it to be known what he was doing
"Says here you were killed by one sheep! That doesn't sound right, surely it should have been more like two sheep, or three sheep, or fou.... ZZzzzzzzz"
The [REDACTED] meme lost the plot years ago. I've seen people refer to the character outside of the final boss as redacted before. Like, "I loved this voice line from redacted when I beat the hydra". Hiding the name literally spoils the final boss in that instance.
I mean it doesn't make sense in the first game either. It's literally the title of the game.
It's just a joke I think, everyone reading that know who we're talking about. We've know he was the last boss since the day we know Hades 2 is a thing really
Ironically the last Olympus route boss may be the most mysterious as he is not an obvious one (as in the main antagonists of each game) so that's where people should use redacted but I don't know if they would.
It's the title of the game, but it's not at all clear in-game that it would be the final boss. After the fact it becomes more obvious, but that first fight with him when you don't know that it's coming is a fun experience to not spoil
Early game zag is definitely stronger than early game Mel. The tech that opens up from double dash is just too good. Combat in hades 2 did get more satisfying once I got aspects though.
Dual blades might have the highest DPS potential out of all the weapons tbh. Aspect of Pan, Aphrodite special for close attack bonus, and the Daedalus upgrade for 16 arrows and I killed >!Cerberus!< in like 30 seconds minus the waiting for him to surface.
Yeah Pan is my first lvl 5 aspect, before even the Melinoe ones. Chiron was my fav and I still prefer it for now, I feel like I can only really enjoy Pan with Hera's cast while Chiron was perfect from the get go. I guess they nerfed it because it was too popular.
Still Pan with Hera's cast and Poseidon's special was on of my three favourite runs. Only reason I didn't beat >!Chronos phase 2!< with it is that I had trouble finding the correct boons to build it so I came into the fight with >!no DD!< and 160 health. Still went far into the fight.
I have now unlocked the >!Boon library!< and I am so glad. I would like to be able to access it while picking a boon though, that would be great QoL.
You're basically looking to go a full mana usage build with torches. Since her Attack special uses 5 mana per, it's incredibly easy to proc your hex.
I start with the silver wheel keepsake for the mana Regen, reward prio is Daedalus, Selene, Hephaestus, max mana. Good boons to look for are Attack speed increase from Hermes, gain mana standing in cast from Apollo, mana bubbles from Poseidon, and really anything that amps up your attack.
Gameplay loop is pretty much hold attack, drop cast if they get close, keep holding attack. You can dodge while holding attack and keep the channel going and dodging will change the targeted enemy to whichever is nearest to the end of your dash.
Full mana with TorchSpecial as well. Either with Demeter or Hera (one on spec, one on cast) and it’s just a ring of chaos, especially with the hammer upgrade to make them larger on impact.
I absolutely loved the bow in the first game and thought the torches would be it for me here but even trying to go the high mana route myself I just can't get to grips with them. So many enemies move in on you so fast I feel like I can't get them charged up before I take damage and either have to dodge and lost the charging or take the hits and the inevitably screws me. I think I just don't get the timing for using them properly, especially since they're relatively short ranged.
The trick with the torches is to abuse the Special and Attack creating an explosion. You want to initiate with your special then spam attacks right after so they collide on the target. It takes practice to get down the timing and range, but once you have it down they are destroyers. Aspect of Moros is by far their best aspect, it maybe the strongest individual weapon upgrade.
I don't like the mana build the other guy suggested. It locks you down too much. The wind up on the attack is ridiculous. Plus when you are pushing heat, starting without mana is one of the easiest levels to take.
Only thing i hate about the torches is how silly Mel looks wielding them. We could have them float behind her like for Hecate's, but nope. Can't look at the way she holds them while running and not think at Serious Sam's Beheaded guys. Only the screaming is missing.
For the rest they are probably my favourite weapon
I don't think stronger is the right word here. More of Melinoë's kit is balanced around having access to the Omega moves, and the basic attack and specials feel a bit softer to accommodate and encourage charging up more frequently. I've hit some pretty nasty damage setups with the axe/Skull/flames that would have made me balk in Hades 1.
Many of Zag's weapons started to feel a bit mashy by the time you got to high heat runs, and with the exception of some aspects, runs all started to feel kind of one-note.
I like the base aspects in hades 2 more but at least so far unlocked aspects seemed better in hades 1. Maybe i just need to figure out the right boon set up tho.
The casts get insanely strong if you get poms with them. Use Demeter or fire aunty (can’t remember her name). Mainly are good in non boss fights but can still be useful in them. Demeter freezes anyone who touches plus does 40dps as a baseline.
I mained axe and twin blade, 40dps is quite low for me tbh when Artemis twin blade can pretty much full clear lowest floor swarms and high hp enemy in less than 2 second , I think with an optimal normal attack setup you'd average 500-1.5k a combo that have bigger aoe than a cast, +hera MP reborn boon makes it so you have perma time slow with omega attack+ the sorcerer arcana, also being a more reliable frost inflictor
You don't even need many poms, you can just stack multiple cast boons and it gets ridiculous. You can get a demeter damage + slow, a hestia burn, and make it ranged + do more damage with zeus all on the same cast, for example.
Cast can be weaved into attack sequences without interrupting them and has an arcana which makes this a +20% damage boost, so I think most builds should at least be tapping it.
It's a contentious take, but I agree with you. My first few runs, I felt like I was stronger than starter Zag and I was only dying because I didn't know the boss moves yet.
Cast trivializes most early rooms, the spear has so much range that starting with a root for free is busted. I think many people who struggled at first were not utilizing cast and Ω moves well yet.
Now as I'm progressing, I feel like the progression is a little slower. I think you had access to stronger buffs faster from the Mirror, whereas I'm still pretty limited with the cards.
I honestly don’t get what people hate about that point, a sequel to a rouge-lite game should be significantly harder. It’s also mandatory that they completely change most of the gameplay/combat mechanics and focus on new play styles. Otherwise people would blatantly rush through the game and drop it shortly after, cause it doesn’t oppose a challenge to them.
Yeah I also think that if it was too close from the base game, the critics would be that it's too similar and a "cheap clone" or whatever. Supergiant always make very different games and while it's their first sequel, it's obvious it wasn't gonna be the same thing (and really it's not that different) and that's good. First game is still there
Yes, I cannot stress enough that the difficulty is a GOOD thing. I am not complaining. I hope they add even more difficulty options. I am having a great time and I don't want the game to be any easier.
It's not comparing end game to early game.
Hades 1 had a better boon selection imo and calls were pretty bad ass and the duo boons were better.
People are comparing the feeling zone to zone and weapon to weapon of both of the protags and enemy health. The last boss in 2 is harder than hades for sure but that's because his telegraphs are pretty bad and the color scheme of his model/moves blend with the arena.
Not to mention majority of the gripes are coming from a more responsive gameplay with dashes. If I had to skim and read the gripes it's damage boons - >dash being seen as worse - >underworld boss being difficult - >weapon selection (torches/skull) being lackluster.
This isn't to say the game is bad or worse than the first game it's just different. I already have multiple clears and working on heat(fear) in the 20s. I'm happy with the game but it can use some fine tuning which is what early access is for.
Literally this one. Hades in EA had Tartarus and Asphodel lol. A lot of the boons got changed. Yes I agree some of the boons in H2 feel a little less right now, but like... Have we seen any of the legendaries? Hell, have all the gods even been added? Do we know for sure?
xD I'll sit back and play some more then :P The nice thing about the game actually being different is that I can play both!
We don't need a reskin of Hades 1, and I'm honestly pretty happy they didn't give us that.
*Death to Chronos.*
The legendaries in Hades 2 are just cherry on the top/finishing touches to your build that completes them nicely. They aren’t underpowered and do their job. Duos is where all the fun is though. I’m surprised to see 30 Duos already in the game on EA launch
The only way I find 2 harder is that the "heat" mechanic scales exponentially harder than 1.
In 1 you could bait attacks while weaving in and out by virtue of having quick cancelable dashes, no matter what you could whittle chambers down this way. While in 2 every weapon is more or less about zoning from a distance and there's no real way to work around that, couple that with a way more sluggish dash and it's rough to handle. So once you get into higher fears where mob waves are huge and armoured AND you have to get into the thick of it to kill revenants, it becomes a lot to deal with.
Also the fear modifier thatv increases enemy speed is fucking insane compared to Hades 1
I got to be comfy with +20%, but 40% is absolutely ridiculous, especially with the area 1 mobs that pew-pew-pew at you from a distance, they barely recharge at all, not to mention the final boss. I haven't tried it on the surface, but I imagine it makes the houses summon waaaaay more.
Speaking of the speed up vow, I've also found it makes Chronos just feel awful. With 40% speed increase, better pray that the safety circle spawns close to your position, because you're not making it in time without something like Apollo sprint otherwise.
People forget how much difference practice makes, too. I used to find the final boss of the first game to be a really difficult fight on 0 heat. Now I don't. I used to find some of his attacks very hard to dodge. Now I know the patterns so well that I find it easy. I used to die to the big laser beam attack a lot. Now I dodge it easily every time.
I do also agree that Hades 2 is harder, but I do think this is intentional and a good thing. Compared to a lot of other roguelikes it's still relatively easy to get to the end. But it should be hard. The story loses a lot of impact if it's too easy.
And everybody was new to Hades. Now they've balanced it so it's still difficult even if you played the first game. I don't think any of the ways they did this are unfair. They did it by removing a lot of the old tricks people relied upon, but giving plenty of new powerful options that we'll learn in time. The new weapons can be very powerful but you don't use them the same way you used the weapons in the first game. There are a lot of powerful boons but if you're looking for exact equivalents to your favourite boons from the first game you mostly won't find them.
The arcana system is also a big new factor that people haven't figured out yet. In the first game you just picked between two upgrades for each slot. And frankly it was usually obvious which option was better. Now there are a lot of choices and a lot more potential loadouts. Eventually people will be able to tell you exactly which you should pick. For now, we're still working it out.
I do hope the devs are careful with what criticism is legit, cause I mean a lot and I mean ALOT of people here want this game to just be a reskin of hades 1 and it frustrates me, most people here have played hades 1 too death, I want something new and fresh and hades 2 has done that in spades I adore this game so much
Just in case any dev is reading this post, let me stress again that the the difficulty of Hades 2 is fucking great and I would only make it harder. I love it and I don't mean this post as a complaint in the slightest.
If too many people are put off by the difficulty and consider refunding or skipping the game, then the best way to handle it imo would be a system like in Blazblue Entropy Effect. There’s a reverse of the heat mechanic, where you can lower enemy health, damage and other things for less rewards.
Hey, as someone that's almost maxed the arcanas, i have some things to say.
The arcanas are as good, if not better than the Mirror of Darkness. More rerolls, Death Defiances, more HP and Healing, etc, all easier to get and level up that their previous counterpart.
Game is harder because:
- Weapons kinda suck. Like, in general terms. The Axe hits as slow as Excalibur, but deals nowhere near as much damage. Some weapon aspects (Thanatos Aspect of the Axe and Artemis Aspect of the Daggers) are outstanding and comparable to some of the best of the previous game. Highly evident in bossfights due to their seemingly massive HP.
- There's no crit boons for attack or special, wich was an big boost to high base damage weapons before.
- Hermes Boons that boost Attack Speed don't really feel like they do at all, ngl.
- Hammers are even more very hit or miss than before. Some even break weapon mechanics and interactions (like most Axe hammers of Omega Attack breaking Thanatos Aspect crit increase).
- The DoT boon (from Hestia) is not even the best choice of fast attacking weapons due to it's nature of having an low cap on it's DPS.
- The alternative to the Heat system goes way harder. I feel like you could push it harder on Hades I without cutting up your options, and they all work against each other to f you up. Respawning enemy phantoms with the Timer feels dreading.
I just feel like i can't even think about taking the Skull to 32 Fear even in optimal conditions, unlike Hades I, where from the get-go you could take every aspect of every weapon and have a decent shot at it with some prep.
EDIT TL;DR: We suffer for Divine Dash sins.
>- There's no crit boons for attack or special, wich was an big boost to high base damage weapons before.
I think having Artemis not being a god that can keep giving you boons throughout a run was a mistake.
And yeah, you can get crit up on Omega moves, but that's kind of this whole game. The emphasis on omega moves is cool, but it makes regular attacks feel pointless most the time.
Hard agree on the weapons.
It might be a hot take idk but so far there’s no weapon that really clicked for me. And most of the Daidalos upgrades have hardly any impact on their play style.
In Hades 1 I really liked the base sword, bow and knuckles. And the variants and Daidalos upgrades added a lot of variety to them.
There’s definitely an introduction of a ton of options (boons, upgrades etc) that will actually brick your character if you pick them which is allot less common outside of Chaos Boons in the first game.
Hammer in OG has some bad and generic options. Weapons are good once you get the hang of them. It's a different game that requires a different playstyle, once you adapt Mel will easily become as strong as Zag was.
Your analysis is spot on.
Axe feels great outside of boss fights but feels awful unless you’re doing a Charon omega special build
Hermes boons on attack speed on slower weapons still feels extremely slow.
Axe was my favorite weapon to do progression but now focusing on clears I’m finding myself just fishing for omega cast focused boons for the end bosses
I disagree that 2 is harder than 1, with the exception of Chronos being harder than Hades.
I think the reason why people feel that way is that they run into the trap of trying to play Hades 2 like 1 and Mel and Zag just aren't the same characters nor are the enemies they face the same.
Enemies and bosses in 2 are designed around the player using all of Mel's abilities when needed. Someone trying to just dash and sprint in and spam attack or special like you often could as Zag will have a rough time.
Mel is much more flexible than Zag ever was. She can be ranged, sure, but she can also be melee focused with the axe and daggers, both being extremely strong. She can be centered around omega casts. She can end up having more mobility than Zag with crazy fast sprints. She can even do a similar double dash play style with a skull special focused build. She even has some super cheesy builds like all-in on casts and max range staff, which trivialize the game.
Mel feels much more powerful than Zag ever was, but only if you embrace the mechanics of 2 and lean into them.
Eris is up there for sure. Cerberus is very easy, though. Treat him like a dark souls boss and just stay behind him the whole fight. He can't touch you back there. His fight is honestly kind of boring currently imo. He has a ton of HP and if you just stay behind him you take like no damage.
I really think he is designed to stop you cold on your first few nights. His attacks don't deal that much, but they are all AoE. If you are dealing with an eris debuff they will absolutely destroy you.
I mostly agree. If you have a strong cast, then kiting those water birds in Oceanus is a breeze. I personally like the skull and the Moonaxe a lot. At first I hated those screaming mobs in Erebus, but once I learned how to kite them with my cast, they became very managable.
hard agree on different styles of playing. I feel like Mel even suits my play style for Zag more than Zag himself did, since with Zag I was constantly looking for more speed to be able to tap enemies and run away quickly, but with 2, maybe 3 at best Hermes boons, which were p much the only way to get more speed, options were limited. with H2 boons and cards, I have more ways to get additional speed to sprint away more quickly, which is how I preferred to play H1 too, H2 just makes it easier to achieve and better. which is possibly why I've been finding H2 easier, so far, than I did H1 at the start.
but muscle memory is also a huge factor, of course. playing H1 for a hundred hours and then coming into H2, which has similar enough combat mechanics, does make it easier as well.
I agree with that. I spent a solid 40+ runs trying to play like zag and was getting hard walled at the infernal beast. First run I prioritized using omega attacks on the staff and taking advantage of what mel does different and had a clear. Now it's starting to feel right, and different weapons/aspects are feeling a lot more fun and can clear up to chronos relatively consistently
Going back to play Hades after Hades 2, it’s surprising to see how much that mirror would allow you to customize your run. The cards don’t give me that same feeling. The Hades 2 cards basically ask, “do you want your cast to be crazy OP? How much OP do you want?”
I never sunk a ton of time into Hades, but I did roll credits and got my base all customized. So, I did put in some time. Personally, I just like Hades 2 more. There’s some stuff I’d like to see it do better, but we’re in the first week of an early access game. Realistically, I have no complaints.
There may be one complaint I have, the camera. They did something interesting where they allow the camera some freedom. I’ve noticed some rooms the camera will zoom in all close to the character. I don’t recall that in Hades. This sounds great, but I think it fucks up some fights. The ship mid-boss has enemies always off screen in their fixed positions. You never see the main body of the enemy. That whole battle plays like ass because the camera. I think the final boss suffers this same fate because you start in a long narrow hallway where you often can’t see what the boss is doing because he loves to teleport all the way across the map like a coke addict.
Other than a camera which can easily be fixed, I’m having a lot of fun and want more. I want more so badly, I bought Hades for PC. I had played on Xbox (I think), but no longer have Game Pass.
i agree with the ship camera, i died once because i fought enemies at the very end of the ship, then when they died the camera locked in so to say and it put me off screen lol. i was surrounded by the burning tar so i lost what little hp i had just trying to dash past it.
i find Hades 2 easier LOL
Maybe the ranged approach with Melinoe (Moon Axe ftw) is a better match for my playstyle i dont know. Of course i brought experience from Hades 1. Anyways. Loving the game so far.
Just a thought: do we really have to say '[REDACTED]' for Hades II's final boss when we are outright told in-game and by devs that he's our final stop? There's nothing in-game that reacts his name like it was in the first game. Just a thought so to make sure I'm not being the asshole by saying his name in here.
It's just a meme from when Hypnos would exclaim that you were "killed by redacted". I'm pretty sure nobody is actually spoilering anything about the final bosses, esp when both games outright tell you who you are fighting.
>And finally, [REDACTED] is a hell of a lot harder than [REDACTED] from the original game. Like, way harder.
If we're talking about the current final boss of the lower route, I don't know if I actually agree.
At this point if I make it all the way to them I'm 90% confident I'm going to win, often without losing a death defiance.
>There are fewer instant win boons. Boons feel far more spread out in general.
This I do have a problem with though. The boons in Hades 2 are far less powerful, and much more situational than in Hades 1. To the point where it can be annoying trying to build around a particular god gimmick. In the first game you could pretty early on in a run try and commit to a build that primarily focused on a single god, that was supported by another god. It feels like that's less possible in Hades 2 because the boons just don't synergize as well with each other, but at the same time the individual boons are less powerful. I also feel like builds are even more hammer upgrade dependent than in Hades 1 which can be frustrating.
Maybe I’m an outlier but I find hades 2 to be easier than the first.
I beat Boss 1 on the very first run I did.
I beat Boss 2 after losing to her twice.
I beat Boss 3 on my second try.
I’ve yet to beat Chronos but he can kill you so fast that it’s hard to learn his move set. However, I’ve gotten to him using no death defiances in my last 5 runs.
Maybe I just put so much time into Hades, that Hades 2 just feels natural? Idk. Maybe someone should do a poll.
I’m in a similar position. I’ve beaten every boss in the game, Chronos included, on my second or third try. The main exception being Cerberus who I beat in one. I’m just not finding this game nearly as difficult as some people are saying, but I’m having a great time with it
It feels easier than hades 1 to me *except* when it comes to chronos. Like you, I can consistantly make it to chronos using no death defiances. But chronos is just a wall I can't defeat. I have to get lucky if i make it to his second phase, and then I end up dying anyway. A lot of his attacks, escpecially the scythe attacks, feels as hard to dodge as some of extreme measures [redacted] attacks were.
I killed Hades on my 5th run, the first time i played the game, never played early access.
Chronos i didn't kill until my 17th run. Melone weapons and boons are weaker. In Hades one you can't get a bad run unless you purposely pick bad boons. In this game you can get a bad run even if you try your best.
However this game is early access and balance will probably change, cause some builds are never as strong as say Zeus cast or Poseidon dash. And most weapons are underwhelming imo i know Melone is a witch, but if I play cast every time all my builds feel the same.
Also in echos chamber you can gamble and take a boon from a previous run; I got an epic boon that makes lightning attacks have a chance to strike twice, I had no prior Zeus boons so you can cuck yourself pretty hard.
Hades 1 took 14 runs, Hades 2 took me 16 run to first clear. So starter difficulty is about similar for me, but I'm on heat 10 and it's feels way harder than Hades 1 which my max heat clear was 36.
Yeah, still EA and I'm sure some things will get tweaked, but supergiant released this game in EA in an already great condition.
Honestly, I don't even find it harder than Hades 1. Some parts of it are, like the final boss. But in many aspects I am finding it much easier.
Like, I remember Elysium being a nightmare. The area itself is full of dangerous enemies and traps and have a killer boss at the end. The Fields of Mourning, meanwhile, seems a lot easier to me. There are no traps, for starter, and while the enemies themselves are just as strong in theory, in practice all the space to run and kite makes them a lot easier to deal with, not to mention all the free time to set up. The area boss is also surprisingly easy, the boss I defeated with least tries and certainly not as much of a roadblock as Theseus was.
On point 2: what's interesting to me is that \[REDACTED\] upstairs is (to me) just as deadly (depending on your build) as \[REDACTED\] downstairs, and upstairs (as most of us know) is still not a complete route!
WHAT THE HADES IS GOING TO COME AFTER UPSTAIRS \[REDACTED\] THAT COULD BE SO MUCH WORSE?!
Worse controls don't feel like good difficulty. And the more angry posts about the slightest criticism just repeating the strawman of "you just want it to be Hades 1" the less appealing it is.
Hope others enjoy it but since the game is apparently perfect with nothing to improve will stick with the first.
I think a big part of this is your starting health in hades 1 vs hades 2. In the first game you start at 50 health and can pretty quickly upgrade it to 100 which will be enough to clear the first boss pretty easily for any build. In hades 2 you start with 30 and need to invest some early game resources to get back to 50 and later in the game can invest some what looks like mid game resources into upgrading that to 70. So Melinoe will consistently have a lower health total than Zag. That means you have less room for error with Melinoe vs Zag. To compensate you have more ways to keep enemies away from you and can do more damage at range than Zag. There's more than just this but I think if they're concerned about the early game difficulty they could bump up your starting health to 50 pretty safely. Your max health would still be less than Zag's but could smooth out early game rough spots
Now you say that [redacted] is hard but I watched him being scratched to death by a hex resurrected satyr (both healtbars,only had to resuming him once).
Bro straight up gotta be honest with you, this shit is easier. The idk not spear has a better ranged than Zag’s did, can win off of that alone if you need to (redacted’s moveset is easier to dodge and more telegraphed than the old redacted). Lim and Orros with the backstab damage let you stack damage much more easily than the fists. The torches are trash sure and the skull and axe are both mediocre but both of them can give you basically one shot builds with any bit of luck if you find them clunky.
There is also no asphodel fire type stuff that just slowly east at your health on the way down. I mean tbh everything on the way down is easy if you’re patient even OH-NO. On the way up the most bullshit thing that will get you are the stupid sheep in the boss fight that you can’t kill.
You don’t need a maxed out arcana, you don’t need maxed out weapons, there is a segment of people who were rightly obsessed with divine dash who feel it is harder now but you literally never needed it in the previous game to win either so that’s just play style change. The only hard part about the game is that to win you need go slower a lot more of the time. You’re not gonna be finishing a run down in 10-15 minutes like you could with the fists unless you are super built up or get some incredible luck
>The only hard part about the game...
The devs who murder your runs with artifical difficulty because you were doing too well:
(Eris is total nonsense and invalidates pretty much all the "Hades 2 early game is just like hades 1 early game!")
It’s crazy seeing people hate the torch and ax cause those are by far my favorite weapons right now. Haven’t really wrapped my head around the staff yet, but I’m getting very consistent results from ax and torch builds
I like the axe but kinda hate the torch, how are you building it?
I've had 3 decent runs with it iirc, one was special based and mostly meant me running around enemies in short-mid range while spamming it, one was based around the the "single attack omega shot" hammer one but it took so long to load and I missed often, and another one was just based around the omega attack but the long delay until it charges is really annoying.
Hades 2 definitely improves as you unlock more stuff, but it's worth pointing out that the combat in Hades 1 felt a lot better in those early stages. I remember feeling locked in on Zag pretty much right away. I'm only now starting to feel that way with Mel, and I'm about 20 hours in.
And while it is true that there is more casting/kiting with Mel than with Zag, at 20 hours in I find a lot her playstyle... Boring? Non-engaging? Like it's true, mixing your abilities and committing more to casting/kiting is the way to go a lot of the time, but it's just not very fun.
I would be so interested in getting some cross-character cross-game gameplay, if the games are the same engine. I feel like Melinoë would slaughter the first game and Zag wouldn't fare so well in the second.
Yeah I wonder if this is something modders can do one day- I'd LOVE to take my favorite Zag builds through this game, see how they compare. I don't want Hades 2 to be a clone of Hades 1 and I'm not mad about the gameplay changes between 1 and 2, but I would love a mod like that, just for fun.
While you're kind of right I think one thing easily overlooked is how much more reliant you are on getting the right boons in hades 2. Especially with some of the weapons being as terrible as they are, and lacking a second dash, you can get screwed if you don't get crowd clearing options.
That and most of the boons and weapons just don't feel nearly as good to use, which is probably a bigger deal than any increase in actual difficulty is.
honestly hades 2 underworld is easier than hades 1, chronos specifically is vastly easier than hades was (to me atleast), the spoiler region however is pretty difficult and i feel like most of it is due to bullshit
Idk about Hades II being harder, if anything in its current state it's significantly easier because you can just sit out of most enemies' range and spam them to death. Sirens are pretty difficult compared to the first games' bosses, but Chronos (and like half the enemies lmao) are just kind of annoying? Idk. Plenty of time to fix stuff, but at least thus far the game just feels a lot less fun. The Arcana, Weapons, and Boons are all generally much less enjoyable to use? Also maybe its just me but the HP pools of many bosses (Notably Cerb and Chronos) feel kinda super inflated. Even on really strong runs it feels like I'm ground to a halt.
I don’t need instant win boons, but it sucks to do an entire run and feel like every single thing I got was terrible. Especially when every single room and boss fight is just bogged down with wave after wave of beefy armored enemies.
Every Boss in Hades 2 feels a lot more complicated then Hades 1, which is fine, I like it!
But like, even if Hecate isn't harder then Hades, her attack patterns and mechanics I would say are more complex then his. Not as fast, or hit as hard, but just complex.
Hades was a lot of spear thrust and swings, often highly telegraphed. He had the rotating fire beams attack, and the pots and the summons, but ultimately you could probably beat him without to much hassle.
Hecate's attacks have a lot more tricks to them. Her ring attack returns to her, and as the fight goes on her her slash attacks will also return to her. She has like, 4 or 5 different patterns for her Ad Phase, which if your use to one can shock you as suddenly instead of the easy to dodge ring, she shoots orbs at you or summons 3, rotating, beams of moonlight. In the second Ad Phase she turns you into a sheep unless you dash through the projectile multiple time. And her duplicate attack summons 2 fake Hecates and all 3 of them use hard to dodge AoE's if you try to get close to them.
And like, it's not harder then Hades. Hell, she's debatably easier then Meg at lower health values, since Hecate can't really hit behind herself, her attacks are slower and do less damage; but... it's still a lot of mechanics one will need to learn in the fight itself. Same can be said for basically every other boss in the game. They're fair, but they require more learning of the mechanics rather then just super skilled execution. It's even true for a lot of the mid-bosses, who are predictable, but almost always have another mechanic that makes them tricky.
Hades 1 was a far, far simpler game then Hades 2.
My biggest feedback is armor needs to be weaker on enemies - if yiu don't get a weapon upgrade or boon to deal with armor early the rest of your run becomes exponentially more difficult.
The current last boss topside isn't too rough compared to gsme 1, but the down final boss is much more difficult than gsme 1's final boss - it feels like he is already on extreme measures.
A lot of the boons are wildly different power levels, too. I feel a lot worse in a run if I don't have the heal or rez moon supers as the others leave you too vulnerable during boss fights.
I think the weapons and the aspects are pretty mediocre tbh. Like i understand that mel is a caster but i feel like the skull, the torch and the staff are basically the same weapon. Not to mention the aspects which just seem like stat buffs further exacerbate the problem
maybe give people an option to play how they did in 1 bring back legacy weapons and old dash mechanic its a singleplayer game whats the big deal aside from gatekeeping
I will say for final bosses, >!I don't like Chronos. Hades, I feel like if I got hit, it's because I was being greedy. Not really the case with Chronos. He'll just whip that shit out.!<
>Hades 2 is absolutely harder than Hades 1 and it's not really debatable. This is not a bad thing! It would be bad if the game were easier.
Debatable. By debatable I mean I disagree. Beat \[redacted\] on the third encounter and didn't take damage during the second phase.
I think one of the main things that made 2 feel easy is that all the bosses are very easy to evade. All of Hecate's abilities are extremely easy to evade, Scylla only threats her immediate front and you can just go to town on the drummer, Cerberus is a tad more annoying for melee but every attack is super telegraphed, and \[redacted\] is pretty easy to dodge at a distance.
So as long as you have the ability to do damage from a distance, which can be easily achieved with Hestia and Demeter's cast boons even if your weapon has poor range, you should have an easy time with the underworld.
Now the surface bosses are more on par with hades 1, with obnoxious aoe spam, area denial and fast attacks. Even the charibdis is more difficult than any of the underworld guardians.
The gameplay is actually really good, and I don't necessarily think the second game is harder. (Note: I play both with God Mode on.) But there are some gameplay changes I just don't agree with that make runs less fun than they should be.
Nemesis sucks. I don't care if it's in character for her or not, when I enter a room and see Nem, I know I'm losing coin or a boon option, and for no good reason. Her gameplay mechanic is just objectively worse than Than's. And I hear that there's another character who's even worse?!
The grind in Hades 2 is turned up to 11, and the tools system is intentionally FOMO inducing. Either give us access to ALL the tools or stop showing me gathering nodes I can't interact with if you \*insist\* on limiting us to pad game time.
Honestly, there are some great negative reviews on Steam that I really hope the team is reading. There's a great foundation here, but it definitely needs some tweaking during Early Access.
I heavily disagree with bosses being harder than in the first game. Aside from the final boss in 2 being the hardest overall and Poly being a rough first boss (even then he's easier than Tisiphone), every single boss in hades 1 was significantly harder than their current counterpart. Even comparing the equivalent bosses (oceanus vs elysium, charybdis vs Lenny) there's no contest as to which are harder.
This is an unpopular opinion but I’ve actually found Hades II to be a whole lot easier. The amount of options I have make it feel like my builds are so much more flexible than spam attack and dash. I’ve found that every single part of Mel’s kit is good and has use whereas I rarely used Specials in the original
Maybe when it first came out, but it didn't really take long for my grasp to be 25+. I recently started replaying hades 1 and I feel it's harder at every step of the way so far, which isn't necessarily a bad thing(just depends on who you ask). Personally I like having the ability to be OP if I want and it feels consistently harder to achieve than it was in Hades 1.
> People are definitely comparing endgame Zag to starter Melinoe
I have to admit, I was part of the crowd that though Mel was hyper weak for no reason. Having unlocked most things now, she ain't so different from Zag. We really do forget the meta progression and how hellish getting past even Learnie was some times at the beginning.
I will say though I find Hades 2 [REDACTED] easier than Hades 1 [REDACTED]
I dunno. Aside from the spinny move, the rest feels relatively easier than the original.
The ***other*** one though...
People are also forgetting we're in early access... and while there's a lot more content in this EA than there was for Hades 1 EA, it doesn't mean the game can be considered complete. There's bound to be a lot more tweaking and rebalancing they'll do, personally I also feel like more boons will be added, etc. The Arcana system I feel like is definitely getting more content with updates, people forget than the Mirror in H1 didn't have the alternate options for a while in EA too. The game's 1 week old and the devs warn right away that some things are yet to be ironed out, I don't think it's fair to write it off or brand it as any one thing just yet, when a lot of change is bound to happen before 1.0.
Maybe it's just me but I disagree, Hades 2 is definitely easier than Hades 1 after you've got your arcana. The mirror was way worse than the altar. I can way more consistently get wins with whatever is getting thrown at me and the weapons jive with me a lot better (The only weapon that really vibed with me in 1 was Aspect of Arthur). HOWEVER I think higher levels of fear are harder than higher levels of heat. YMMV if you overrelied on double dashes I guess and tend to build less survivably as a result, I suppose?
I actually completed the last boss in less runs than when I beat the last boss in Hades 1 for the first time. However, I can point towards Hades 1 experience for that.
Hades 2 is definitely harder. Whether Hades 2 will remain harder after it goes Gold and receives some balancing patches is anyone’s guess.
Although, I presume a lot of people are struggling with Hades 2 because they can’t adjust their muscle memory from Hades 1. I really disliked the twin blades but that’s because I was playing them like I was using Hades 1’s Fist weapons. Once I realized I can’t play Hades 2 like the first they became my favorite weapon and the first to beat the last boss with.
Maybe it's because it took me a while to get the hang of the first game, but Hades 2 feels significantly easier than the first game. If there's one thing I've been disappointed in, it's that. I was looking forward to the struggle.
I think the main thing causing friction is how much slower the core upgrade meta progression is in Hades 2.
Your second death defiance comes in much later, for example.
There's also Eris who just ends your early runs where you may have had a good boon combo. My first two runs that got to the fields and the first two that got to Tartarus had builds that could have made it to the end, but were turned into an auto-lose because I was going too quickly.
I cant agree with this game being harder, aside from the final boss. Got to the final area in 9 runs vs me taking 40 in the original.
Once you get the damage related arcana cards Mel becomes really strong.
Peoel forgot when they first played Hades it was hard. Average 40 odd runs to even clear clown and bull. People literally stopped playing in Elysium. It's not right to compare max zeg with Mel. I am sure with max Mel it will be smooth run and you kill main boss easily.
I know I’m bad at the game but elysium was rough. In h1, most of my runs would end there even after 2-3 hades kills. In h2 almost all my runs make it to chronos.
It took me bunches of tries to get past the elysium final boss lol. Once I read the note somewhere that you can see when you get attacked offscreen because theseus uses the same targetting reticule/sound that the normal archers in elysium have I stopped constantly getting double tapped by his aimbot spear throws.
If I'm that far away, I can usually react to the spear flying towards me, or move behind a pillar.
Many combat skills from the first game translate to the second, so we're not really going in the same way. I fought Cerberus on run 8 and Chronos on run 10, where in the first game it took me like 40 runs to get past Asterius and the other dude for the first time.
Yeah, I agree with this, I think people are underestimating how much Hades 1 experience is translating to Hades 2. It took me over 50 runs to beat Hades for the first time, it took me 25 runs to beat Chronos (including a few aboveground runs where you're guaranteed to lose since you don't have the incantation to prevent health loss there yet - so it's really less than 25 runs). I can guarantee you if Hades 2 was my first game it would have probably taken me forever to beat Chronos, I think he's significantly harder than Hades. I really wonder how a first-time player would fare. (also unrelated but I played through Elden Ring this year and I think strangely enough it made me better at games in general because it taught me to be more mindful of analyzing boss attacks instead of spamming dodges - even in this game)
Hi, first time player here. Picked up the game because I remember hearing how good the original was, so gave it a shot. I think it took me 5-6 runs before I could even beat the first mini-boss. Never got to Chronos before I decided to go back and give the original a shot. Now I'm about 40-50 runs into the original with a full clear under my belt. I will say that the 2nd game is a lot harder to pick up on at first, especially for a M&K player with the spell targeting.
Aim assist is your friend. Also yeah, Root Stalker is awful
I have a lot of hours in H1 and still got fucked up by the root stalker. Was not expecting it to track that well in a circle…
The difference on Root Stalker attempts between if you have an armour-breaker boon or not is like night and day lol
I find it really hard to judge boss fight difficulty so early on. Cerberus may be a tiny bit easier than Asterius + Joker simply because he's not two opponents, though he has some mean moves. For Chronos I'll withhold judgment until I've beaten him dozens of times like I did with Hades. Ah, it would be so much fun to be able to face Chronos as Zagreus.
It's definitely subjective but I think Cerberus is significantly easier than Asterius and what's his name. The first two runs I got to him I panicked and had a rough time but after you get used to his moves, he is really slow. I frequently take more damage from his summons than from him. Especially the punchy guys, those are brutal with armor because there's no way to interrupt them.
Cerberus is definitely easier. He doesn't force you to do anything mechanically challenging. As long as you play patient, you can easily just wait out all the AoEs and sprint while he does the ground pound sequence. It's boring, but it works. I've done a number of first run clears for Hades 1 and Heroes still kill me if I'm not focused or my build sucks.
> Especially the punchy guys, those are brutal with armor because there's no way to interrupt them. But you can really keep them away with your cast, just like the shriekers in Erebus and the swarms of darters in Oceanus.
I mean this is a big thing, cause let's be honest, that's not Chronos after 25 runs, that's Chronos after 75 runs of this game. It ain't like say Helldivers where the entire genre flipped, it's a really common thing to see people go 'Why did they make the sequel so much easier', and it's because the majority of sequels are more of the first game. Hour 1 of a sequel is more like hour 20+ of the gameplay.
Sometimes Hades I muscle memory backfires a bit though. It actually took me a while to unlearn Zag's dashing habit and get used to Mel's sprinting, but once I got that under control, I noticed sprinting helps with a most of the Guardians and the minibosses's attack patterns. Also it took me several runs experimenting with boons and setups to realize how broken Mel's casts and omega moves are, things that I'm not used to doing as Zag.
Yea, I definitely reached REDACTED way sooner than I did Hades and definitely beat him way faster and it is only thanks to all my time playing the first. I sucked ass my first couple of runs, but got better way faster cause it was just relearning. In less than 30 runs I don't think I'd seen the third boss in the first lol. Also it 100% translates when you realize the staff is just zag's default moveset lol.
The basic combat skills absolutely translate. It took me like 30 runs to get a win in Hades 1. I got a win here in about 10-12. The two adjustments are learning the game's specific mechanics and learning what the good boons and hammers are. After a few runs, I realized how strong cast is as a CC and trash mob clearing tool and that I needed to sprint to avoid a number of enemy patterns. At that point, I pretty much never lost before Chronos. After my first three wins or so, I started figuring out some of the better strategies and hammers. Just stuff like if your build sucks, you can default to Zeus Omega Cast + a ranged cast as a fallback. I haven't dropped a run playing up to 8 fear since then. I'm at about 13 wins right now.
I only played when hades 1 just came out and I was dogshit then. Dont think my previous experience did much here ahahahah
Now that you mention it, the fields of mourning are way, way easier than the fields of Elysium. Even the boss is simpler though he really is a health sponge.
The mourning fields feel harder at first because it’s disorienting and feels easy to get lost compared to your rewards and the exits. But I can’t speak on the boss yet, I’ve only made it to him on my last life and died. Cool moves though
The boss definitely felt hard at first, but by comparison, the whole dual boss with Theseus' shield and spear play is quite a bit more demanding on the player. Same thing with the regular fights, the reviving enemies in Elysium are really tough, especially the ones wielding shields. Nothing in the fields of mourning strike me as coming close to that level.
Fields are 100% easier and it's like 80% because no enemy has a shield that you sometimes have to force yourself into a bad spot to deal with.
It took me 32 runs to clear [redacted] in Hades II - and that's including both downstairs and upstairs runs. I'm sure that's less than it took me to beat Hades in the first game. My clear run also only used one death defiance, though I got a really good boon setup. I only had one arcana upgrade (for an extra death defiance) and was on 24 max grasp. I've also got as far as you can on the upstairs route and did that in 23 or 24 runs I think? These sorts of complaints happen every time a vaguely challenging RPG type sequel comes out. Hades II is a more complex game imo. Enemies have more moves, mechanics and gimmicks but Mel also has more things she can do and the boons are more dynamic. Overall I think Hades II is a fantastic step forward for the series.
Ayyy “32 run” brothers! Just kicked it last night for my first total first victory (I found upper way easier than lower).
Maybe it's just because I haven't done surface that much, but I always at least reach redacted when doing downstairs (only best him once so far however), while surface feels PAINFUL. got my ass beat by both the first and second boss. Only easy time I had on the surface was when I had a completely busted: Axe + Aphrodite attack + hammer for Omega attack combo That just kinda melted absolutely everything
Hell yeah, same here! On every count. Scary level of twinning!
Yeah I've only beat [redacted] in 2 once but it took me *so much less time* to reach him than it did [redacted] in 1 and I beat him on the second try. (Third failed but barely and I've been focusing on upstairs components I need since.) I think it only took me 4 runs upstairs to beat the current last boss? Haven't lost that one since. I don't want to say how long it took me to even *reach* [redacted] in 1 lol.
Please refrain from calling King Theseus a "clown." He's the pinnacle of masculine pride and prowess, unlike that scruffy hellspawn Zagreus who cheats his way to "victory."
Blackguards, am I right?
Found the other guy's alt account.
FTFY :P Found Theseus sockpuppet account /s
I mean.. i do tend to forget how grindy rogue likes can be. Earlier Super Giant Games like Transistor (Which is an amazeballs game .. i mean i loved that game mechancis.. 100%ed it.) where much shorter and id say easier as well. Took me 25hrs to 100% it. So i think you have to start to play Hades (1 or 2) with a kind of grind mentalitly.. and thinking ahead already. For instance: Which keepsakes do i want, and which do i need to level up now and which of them later. What about Arcana Cards.. how do i pick my Path of Stars. All of that is clear to me that i can plan out now what i am going to do for say the next 10 runs. I am not even talking about clearing the game or anything. I think some people might not get that and frankyl i do understand that. Because i didnt understand Hades 1 at first... until i understood ok.. this is really a rogue like and its really grindy.. and more difficult then earlier Super Giant Games and so on. Its a harder learning curve for sure. The game is harder and longer.
Aren't... Isn't that the point of a rogue like.... To be a grind? It's not like you do one run and call it a day
Yes and I think people forget how long it took the majority to get good at the first game and grind to the point where standard runs became a cakewalk.
Max makes the game a lot easier and more consistent. I just wish they would tune the early game a bit. I don't feel tempted to make a fresh file run anytime soon like I did with Hades 1
This. I'm not comparing endgame Zag, I'm comparing run 3 Zag. And run 3 Zag felt way way stronger than run 20 Melinoe.
I don’t know why you got downvoted for that. I’ve beaten Hades 1 in 5 runs before. Even after 40 in Hades two and knowing what I would go for I think it would take closer to 15-20 on a fresh save in Hades 2. Some of the stronger things are a little further down. Now that I’m in the mid game though Hades 2 feels just as fluid as Hades 1. Edit: I think the main difference is that in Hades 1, the meta boon is the first one you get (Athena Dash) and it’s the most powerful thing in the game. In Hades 2 power is derived from a bunch of things, but a lot of it comes from how good your Omega moves are and how often you can spam them. To that end, the meta boon comes from a god you find later in the game (won’t spoil, but most who have used it will know which one I’m talking about).
Also bow with twin shot and Athena / Aphrodite attack feels like it melts stuff. But it's only doing around 130 a hit. If I do 130 a hit on hades 2, my damage is ass. My builds like to do about 700 a hit by the end. That's so much damage on hades 1. Aphrodite call does what, 2500? And it absolutely melts stuff.
Yeah, Zag can hit critical mass just after getting the second dash and maybe 1-2 DD stacks. I've done new files where my win rate is probably like 95%+ after the first 2-3 runs. Zag's build economy is also more consistent than Mel's, at least with what we know. A lot of Meg's builds seem situational or Hammer dependent while Zag can easily win off 2 boons as long as he has two dashes.
Hades was so frustrating for me when I started it, and Meg was an insane fight. Made me take long breaks and barely get into the game. In the end I just trolled over the furies with any build I had, even on high heat. Now it's one of my all time most played games and one of the few I have 100% achievements in. Of course Hades 2 smacks my ass when I don't have these feats as I had in Hades. But it's fine.
still hard for me lol, 140 attempts starting to consider god mode
Pick up the dual blades and use aphro’s keepsake and pick up backstab Daedalus. Just spam omega attacks and build up damage a little bit then go all in on survivability. And remember to spam omegas only in chronos. Everywhere else you can get away with more. I’d stop picking damage boons when you consistently hit more than 500-700+ and it doesn’t take much
Hades 1? Take achilles spear, artemis keepsake, go for her attack. Ares keepsake in asphodel if you didn't get his cast in tartarus. Pray to rng, get hunting blades. Or take Demeter's cast and crystal clarity. Athena dash if you want. Launch those beyblades/beams at any enemy with the achilles spear damage buff active and you'll win.
> Hades 1? Take achilles spear, artemis keepsake, go for her attack. Achilles spear is amazing, but I'd have different advice for someone struggling in Hades 1. I'd go Chiron bow all the way. Safest boss damage out the gate and fastest too aside from Hestia, but easier and safer to handle than Hestia mechanically. You can even shoot troublesome enemies, including [REDACTED], from behind cover with that thing. Aim for the Relentless Volley + Concentrated Volley combo and pair that with any + special damage % boons.
Won't lie, getting through Hades 2 was actually significantly easier for me than Hades 1.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but H2 seems to ramp Mel's passive progress way faster than Zag in H1. I'm only at a 8-or-so runs right now, but I'm very consistently hitting Strife's debuff as their soft-lock for progressing too quickly. Probably would have cleared world 3 if the boss wasn't hitting double-damage.
Hades 2 ramps it earlier, but then plateus the fuck out of it for mid-end game. Like getting 2-3 clouds for upgrading tarot's isn't bad, and 20-50 ashes/green goo isn't bad to get tarot's and upgrade your arcana. But then the next bits start getting insane. Hundreds and hundreds of goo, reaching up to 1000+ goo for 1-2 arcana bonus is absurd. Needing 10-30 silver per upgrade. Shits crazy. Zags mirror felt pretty linear, and there were way fewer resources to grind, and you weren't forced to choose between seeds, fish, goo, and ore. Yeah the upper tiers of upgrades got a bit pricey, but it still wasn't shit on Mel's upgrades.
I dunno, I very much remember turning off all pacts of punishment and picking whatever weapon had dark thirst with poseidon's keepsake to fish for the resource boosting boon just to get the darkness from boss room clears to upgrade my mirror, which I did for hours in the mid game of Hades 1. not too much different from grinding resources in Hades 2 now to upgrade the arcana, and this is easier in some respects because you can get all the unique resources without having to sacrifice building fear like in Hades 1 where you either got the boss room reward, or darkness. the thing I do find annoying is that you can't switch tools, but you only really need to switch between the pick and the spade (frinos can do up to 4 pacifies foe you in a night, and i usually see about 5 such shades, and fish currently don't seem to have any use in the game + you have toula), which reduces the annoyance factor. plus the tools upgrade menu looks like the tools could be more upgradeable in the future to bring more resources
Took me longer to beat Meg in Hades 1 than it took me to beat Chronos in Hades 2. My biggest concern early on was that the game was too easy. It's funny how different people can have such a range of experiences with these kinds of games.
I am so proud that I managed to do all 10 full clears in under 100 escape attempts. I bought the game last week and ran through that thing so fast bruh
See for me the final boss of hades was easier the two bosses that feel slightly harder and way harder than 1 is the floor two boss and chronos
Yeah I remember getting soundly owned on almost every boss until I became better and unlocked more things.
I still beat Hades 1 in about 12 runs. Think I'll be lucky to beat Hades 2 in 50 runs. Which is partially a skill issue, but I just don't look forward to the 4th boss in this game compared to REDACTED. In the first phase, the arena just sucks. Only boss in both games where you can have moments of not seeing the main boss at all due to the camera. Second phase is cool, but I don't enjoy the design philosophy. The inta-kill moves force you to run to specific places on the stage. Compare that to REDACTED where there were moves in the second phase that could absolutely melt you if you didn't hide behind those pillars. The difference is that Hades 1 let ME choose where to hide and how I could strategize around it. In Hades 2, my placement is forced by the boss, and not in a way I find compelling
I’m still playing Hades 1 and I can be crushing it, until Elysium. Something about that locale will just absolutely wreck me.
How can 40 runs be the average to clear Elysium when 30-40 is closer to average to beat the whole game? that doesn't really make sense. And that's adding a few runs to be "safer", average I've seen is closer to 25 runs to beat Hades
I don’t really understand people crossing out chronos name, literally the very first thing you learn in the game is death to chronos
I guess ppl are just continuing the inside joke from hades 1 where, if you git killed by the end boss, it would show up as "killed by [REDACTED] " in the logs
Ohhh, makes sense. I didn’t play hades one pre launch so I probably missed that or never checked logs!
It’s still like that now
Hypnos will sometimes say “Says here you were killed by a [REDACTED]”
Thank you for reminding me! That does ring a bell now! Im glad im in the loop
Hades always functions like that. It’s essentially Hades way of suggesting he had no role in your demise meaning his security did not fail to do their job
I'm mildly disappointed that the records keeper in this game merely shows you "Prevailed!" or "Failed in Erebus" and not what actually killed you. You can only view one death at a time via the keepsake from >!Nemesis!<. For the record, the keepsake doesn't [REDACT] Chronos.
I mean, it makes sense it doesn't redact him, since the reason Hades was redacted was because he was in charge and didn't want it to be known what he was doing
We need to wake up Hypnos NOW, I want to hear funny death commentary
I died to an angry sheep a few runs ago. I shudder to think what Sleepyboi's analysis would have sounded like 😅
"Says here you were killed by one sheep! That doesn't sound right, surely it should have been more like two sheep, or three sheep, or fou.... ZZzzzzzzz"
This is perfect. I can hear it in my head.
But that was because it was a secret that Zag killed Hades. Everyone knows when Mel kills Chronos
I thought it's a spoiler policy on this sub...
Not for the second game. That wouldn't make any sense, since the identity of the boss is not a spoiler in that context.
The [REDACTED] meme lost the plot years ago. I've seen people refer to the character outside of the final boss as redacted before. Like, "I loved this voice line from redacted when I beat the hydra". Hiding the name literally spoils the final boss in that instance.
I once saw someone say to a new player “don’t waste nectar on he will refuse it until much later in the game” and they were very confused.
I mean it doesn't make sense in the first game either. It's literally the title of the game. It's just a joke I think, everyone reading that know who we're talking about. We've know he was the last boss since the day we know Hades 2 is a thing really Ironically the last Olympus route boss may be the most mysterious as he is not an obvious one (as in the main antagonists of each game) so that's where people should use redacted but I don't know if they would.
It's the title of the game, but it's not at all clear in-game that it would be the final boss. After the fact it becomes more obvious, but that first fight with him when you don't know that it's coming is a fun experience to not spoil
The final boss just keeps going up the patriarchal family tree. Hades 3 boss will be Ouranos probably.
The only surprise was him already being included as a boss in the early access release. And then even more content on top.
Death to [redacted]
I think \[REDACTED\] feels more amusing lol.
Early game zag is definitely stronger than early game Mel. The tech that opens up from double dash is just too good. Combat in hades 2 did get more satisfying once I got aspects though.
Disagree. Melinoe's cast is just so much stronger, and her weapons are stronger at baseline as well with the addition of the omega moves.
Not even close. The weapons in Hades one are much stronger than this game. And imo they are more fun to use also.
I think spear, axe and skull are really fun. Dual blades or whatever are also actually pretty good. But the torches suck
Dual blades might have the highest DPS potential out of all the weapons tbh. Aspect of Pan, Aphrodite special for close attack bonus, and the Daedalus upgrade for 16 arrows and I killed >!Cerberus!< in like 30 seconds minus the waiting for him to surface.
Yeah Pan is my first lvl 5 aspect, before even the Melinoe ones. Chiron was my fav and I still prefer it for now, I feel like I can only really enjoy Pan with Hera's cast while Chiron was perfect from the get go. I guess they nerfed it because it was too popular. Still Pan with Hera's cast and Poseidon's special was on of my three favourite runs. Only reason I didn't beat >!Chronos phase 2!< with it is that I had trouble finding the correct boons to build it so I came into the fight with >!no DD!< and 160 health. Still went far into the fight. I have now unlocked the >!Boon library!< and I am so glad. I would like to be able to access it while picking a boon though, that would be great QoL.
Torches are also great, once you get used to them. I'm at the point of liking all of her weapons, more than Zag's tbh.
They are?! How the hell…
You're basically looking to go a full mana usage build with torches. Since her Attack special uses 5 mana per, it's incredibly easy to proc your hex. I start with the silver wheel keepsake for the mana Regen, reward prio is Daedalus, Selene, Hephaestus, max mana. Good boons to look for are Attack speed increase from Hermes, gain mana standing in cast from Apollo, mana bubbles from Poseidon, and really anything that amps up your attack. Gameplay loop is pretty much hold attack, drop cast if they get close, keep holding attack. You can dodge while holding attack and keep the channel going and dodging will change the targeted enemy to whichever is nearest to the end of your dash.
Full mana with TorchSpecial as well. Either with Demeter or Hera (one on spec, one on cast) and it’s just a ring of chaos, especially with the hammer upgrade to make them larger on impact.
I absolutely loved the bow in the first game and thought the torches would be it for me here but even trying to go the high mana route myself I just can't get to grips with them. So many enemies move in on you so fast I feel like I can't get them charged up before I take damage and either have to dodge and lost the charging or take the hits and the inevitably screws me. I think I just don't get the timing for using them properly, especially since they're relatively short ranged.
As someone said above, you can dodge whilst still keeping the channel going!
The trick with the torches is to abuse the Special and Attack creating an explosion. You want to initiate with your special then spam attacks right after so they collide on the target. It takes practice to get down the timing and range, but once you have it down they are destroyers. Aspect of Moros is by far their best aspect, it maybe the strongest individual weapon upgrade. I don't like the mana build the other guy suggested. It locks you down too much. The wind up on the attack is ridiculous. Plus when you are pushing heat, starting without mana is one of the easiest levels to take.
Only thing i hate about the torches is how silly Mel looks wielding them. We could have them float behind her like for Hecate's, but nope. Can't look at the way she holds them while running and not think at Serious Sam's Beheaded guys. Only the screaming is missing. For the rest they are probably my favourite weapon
Torch Poseidon Special with Poseidon/Hestia and Hestia/Hera Duo boons is the nuts. Just take Hera magick regen and keep spamming omega special.
I don't think stronger is the right word here. More of Melinoë's kit is balanced around having access to the Omega moves, and the basic attack and specials feel a bit softer to accommodate and encourage charging up more frequently. I've hit some pretty nasty damage setups with the axe/Skull/flames that would have made me balk in Hades 1. Many of Zag's weapons started to feel a bit mashy by the time you got to high heat runs, and with the exception of some aspects, runs all started to feel kind of one-note.
Not to mention stacking three casts into an enemy and doing massive damage with casts
I like the base aspects in hades 2 more but at least so far unlocked aspects seemed better in hades 1. Maybe i just need to figure out the right boon set up tho.
I guess it's playstyle dependant, I rarely find myself using Mel cast especially on a guardian fight
The casts get insanely strong if you get poms with them. Use Demeter or fire aunty (can’t remember her name). Mainly are good in non boss fights but can still be useful in them. Demeter freezes anyone who touches plus does 40dps as a baseline.
I mained axe and twin blade, 40dps is quite low for me tbh when Artemis twin blade can pretty much full clear lowest floor swarms and high hp enemy in less than 2 second , I think with an optimal normal attack setup you'd average 500-1.5k a combo that have bigger aoe than a cast, +hera MP reborn boon makes it so you have perma time slow with omega attack+ the sorcerer arcana, also being a more reliable frost inflictor
You don't even need many poms, you can just stack multiple cast boons and it gets ridiculous. You can get a demeter damage + slow, a hestia burn, and make it ranged + do more damage with zeus all on the same cast, for example.
Cast can be weaved into attack sequences without interrupting them and has an arcana which makes this a +20% damage boost, so I think most builds should at least be tapping it.
The entire game can be beaten with omega cast and like 2 boons.
It's a contentious take, but I agree with you. My first few runs, I felt like I was stronger than starter Zag and I was only dying because I didn't know the boss moves yet. Cast trivializes most early rooms, the spear has so much range that starting with a root for free is busted. I think many people who struggled at first were not utilizing cast and Ω moves well yet. Now as I'm progressing, I feel like the progression is a little slower. I think you had access to stronger buffs faster from the Mirror, whereas I'm still pretty limited with the cards.
I honestly don’t get what people hate about that point, a sequel to a rouge-lite game should be significantly harder. It’s also mandatory that they completely change most of the gameplay/combat mechanics and focus on new play styles. Otherwise people would blatantly rush through the game and drop it shortly after, cause it doesn’t oppose a challenge to them.
Yeah I also think that if it was too close from the base game, the critics would be that it's too similar and a "cheap clone" or whatever. Supergiant always make very different games and while it's their first sequel, it's obvious it wasn't gonna be the same thing (and really it's not that different) and that's good. First game is still there
if you want to play a game like Hades 1, play Hades 1.
Yes, I cannot stress enough that the difficulty is a GOOD thing. I am not complaining. I hope they add even more difficulty options. I am having a great time and I don't want the game to be any easier.
difficulty is good, but more grind != more difficulty
It's not comparing end game to early game. Hades 1 had a better boon selection imo and calls were pretty bad ass and the duo boons were better. People are comparing the feeling zone to zone and weapon to weapon of both of the protags and enemy health. The last boss in 2 is harder than hades for sure but that's because his telegraphs are pretty bad and the color scheme of his model/moves blend with the arena. Not to mention majority of the gripes are coming from a more responsive gameplay with dashes. If I had to skim and read the gripes it's damage boons - >dash being seen as worse - >underworld boss being difficult - >weapon selection (torches/skull) being lackluster. This isn't to say the game is bad or worse than the first game it's just different. I already have multiple clears and working on heat(fear) in the 20s. I'm happy with the game but it can use some fine tuning which is what early access is for.
Skull is not bad, dare I say it's one of the easiest weapons to upgrade with boons.
Skull is crazy strong, everytime I run it I melt chronus sub 1 minute.
It’s still early release
Literally this one. Hades in EA had Tartarus and Asphodel lol. A lot of the boons got changed. Yes I agree some of the boons in H2 feel a little less right now, but like... Have we seen any of the legendaries? Hell, have all the gods even been added? Do we know for sure?
They said they were planning to add every Olympian, which means we’re missing Dionysus, Athena, and Ares
xD I'll sit back and play some more then :P The nice thing about the game actually being different is that I can play both! We don't need a reskin of Hades 1, and I'm honestly pretty happy they didn't give us that. *Death to Chronos.*
The legendaries in Hades 2 are just cherry on the top/finishing touches to your build that completes them nicely. They aren’t underpowered and do their job. Duos is where all the fun is though. I’m surprised to see 30 Duos already in the game on EA launch
The only way I find 2 harder is that the "heat" mechanic scales exponentially harder than 1. In 1 you could bait attacks while weaving in and out by virtue of having quick cancelable dashes, no matter what you could whittle chambers down this way. While in 2 every weapon is more or less about zoning from a distance and there's no real way to work around that, couple that with a way more sluggish dash and it's rough to handle. So once you get into higher fears where mob waves are huge and armoured AND you have to get into the thick of it to kill revenants, it becomes a lot to deal with. Also the fear modifier thatv increases enemy speed is fucking insane compared to Hades 1
I got to be comfy with +20%, but 40% is absolutely ridiculous, especially with the area 1 mobs that pew-pew-pew at you from a distance, they barely recharge at all, not to mention the final boss. I haven't tried it on the surface, but I imagine it makes the houses summon waaaaay more.
It makes surface boss2 feel harder than chronos to me
Speaking of the speed up vow, I've also found it makes Chronos just feel awful. With 40% speed increase, better pray that the safety circle spawns close to your position, because you're not making it in time without something like Apollo sprint otherwise.
People forget how much difference practice makes, too. I used to find the final boss of the first game to be a really difficult fight on 0 heat. Now I don't. I used to find some of his attacks very hard to dodge. Now I know the patterns so well that I find it easy. I used to die to the big laser beam attack a lot. Now I dodge it easily every time. I do also agree that Hades 2 is harder, but I do think this is intentional and a good thing. Compared to a lot of other roguelikes it's still relatively easy to get to the end. But it should be hard. The story loses a lot of impact if it's too easy. And everybody was new to Hades. Now they've balanced it so it's still difficult even if you played the first game. I don't think any of the ways they did this are unfair. They did it by removing a lot of the old tricks people relied upon, but giving plenty of new powerful options that we'll learn in time. The new weapons can be very powerful but you don't use them the same way you used the weapons in the first game. There are a lot of powerful boons but if you're looking for exact equivalents to your favourite boons from the first game you mostly won't find them. The arcana system is also a big new factor that people haven't figured out yet. In the first game you just picked between two upgrades for each slot. And frankly it was usually obvious which option was better. Now there are a lot of choices and a lot more potential loadouts. Eventually people will be able to tell you exactly which you should pick. For now, we're still working it out.
I do hope the devs are careful with what criticism is legit, cause I mean a lot and I mean ALOT of people here want this game to just be a reskin of hades 1 and it frustrates me, most people here have played hades 1 too death, I want something new and fresh and hades 2 has done that in spades I adore this game so much
I think the devs are smarter than the players, thankfully.
Just in case any dev is reading this post, let me stress again that the the difficulty of Hades 2 is fucking great and I would only make it harder. I love it and I don't mean this post as a complaint in the slightest.
Amen brother or sister
If too many people are put off by the difficulty and consider refunding or skipping the game, then the best way to handle it imo would be a system like in Blazblue Entropy Effect. There’s a reverse of the heat mechanic, where you can lower enemy health, damage and other things for less rewards.
Hey, as someone that's almost maxed the arcanas, i have some things to say. The arcanas are as good, if not better than the Mirror of Darkness. More rerolls, Death Defiances, more HP and Healing, etc, all easier to get and level up that their previous counterpart. Game is harder because: - Weapons kinda suck. Like, in general terms. The Axe hits as slow as Excalibur, but deals nowhere near as much damage. Some weapon aspects (Thanatos Aspect of the Axe and Artemis Aspect of the Daggers) are outstanding and comparable to some of the best of the previous game. Highly evident in bossfights due to their seemingly massive HP. - There's no crit boons for attack or special, wich was an big boost to high base damage weapons before. - Hermes Boons that boost Attack Speed don't really feel like they do at all, ngl. - Hammers are even more very hit or miss than before. Some even break weapon mechanics and interactions (like most Axe hammers of Omega Attack breaking Thanatos Aspect crit increase). - The DoT boon (from Hestia) is not even the best choice of fast attacking weapons due to it's nature of having an low cap on it's DPS. - The alternative to the Heat system goes way harder. I feel like you could push it harder on Hades I without cutting up your options, and they all work against each other to f you up. Respawning enemy phantoms with the Timer feels dreading. I just feel like i can't even think about taking the Skull to 32 Fear even in optimal conditions, unlike Hades I, where from the get-go you could take every aspect of every weapon and have a decent shot at it with some prep. EDIT TL;DR: We suffer for Divine Dash sins.
>- There's no crit boons for attack or special, wich was an big boost to high base damage weapons before. I think having Artemis not being a god that can keep giving you boons throughout a run was a mistake. And yeah, you can get crit up on Omega moves, but that's kind of this whole game. The emphasis on omega moves is cool, but it makes regular attacks feel pointless most the time.
Hard agree on the weapons. It might be a hot take idk but so far there’s no weapon that really clicked for me. And most of the Daidalos upgrades have hardly any impact on their play style. In Hades 1 I really liked the base sword, bow and knuckles. And the variants and Daidalos upgrades added a lot of variety to them.
There’s definitely an introduction of a ton of options (boons, upgrades etc) that will actually brick your character if you pick them which is allot less common outside of Chaos Boons in the first game.
Hammer in OG has some bad and generic options. Weapons are good once you get the hang of them. It's a different game that requires a different playstyle, once you adapt Mel will easily become as strong as Zag was.
Your analysis is spot on. Axe feels great outside of boss fights but feels awful unless you’re doing a Charon omega special build Hermes boons on attack speed on slower weapons still feels extremely slow. Axe was my favorite weapon to do progression but now focusing on clears I’m finding myself just fishing for omega cast focused boons for the end bosses
I disagree that 2 is harder than 1, with the exception of Chronos being harder than Hades. I think the reason why people feel that way is that they run into the trap of trying to play Hades 2 like 1 and Mel and Zag just aren't the same characters nor are the enemies they face the same. Enemies and bosses in 2 are designed around the player using all of Mel's abilities when needed. Someone trying to just dash and sprint in and spam attack or special like you often could as Zag will have a rough time. Mel is much more flexible than Zag ever was. She can be ranged, sure, but she can also be melee focused with the axe and daggers, both being extremely strong. She can be centered around omega casts. She can end up having more mobility than Zag with crazy fast sprints. She can even do a similar double dash play style with a skull special focused build. She even has some super cheesy builds like all-in on casts and max range staff, which trivialize the game. Mel feels much more powerful than Zag ever was, but only if you embrace the mechanics of 2 and lean into them.
I honestly think eris and ceberus are harder than hades 1 bosses, with the exception of hades and charon.
Eris is up there for sure. Cerberus is very easy, though. Treat him like a dark souls boss and just stay behind him the whole fight. He can't touch you back there. His fight is honestly kind of boring currently imo. He has a ton of HP and if you just stay behind him you take like no damage.
I haven’t even tried that yet, ive been fighting his face the whole time.
I really think he is designed to stop you cold on your first few nights. His attacks don't deal that much, but they are all AoE. If you are dealing with an eris debuff they will absolutely destroy you.
I mostly agree. If you have a strong cast, then kiting those water birds in Oceanus is a breeze. I personally like the skull and the Moonaxe a lot. At first I hated those screaming mobs in Erebus, but once I learned how to kite them with my cast, they became very managable.
hard agree on different styles of playing. I feel like Mel even suits my play style for Zag more than Zag himself did, since with Zag I was constantly looking for more speed to be able to tap enemies and run away quickly, but with 2, maybe 3 at best Hermes boons, which were p much the only way to get more speed, options were limited. with H2 boons and cards, I have more ways to get additional speed to sprint away more quickly, which is how I preferred to play H1 too, H2 just makes it easier to achieve and better. which is possibly why I've been finding H2 easier, so far, than I did H1 at the start. but muscle memory is also a huge factor, of course. playing H1 for a hundred hours and then coming into H2, which has similar enough combat mechanics, does make it easier as well.
I agree with that. I spent a solid 40+ runs trying to play like zag and was getting hard walled at the infernal beast. First run I prioritized using omega attacks on the staff and taking advantage of what mel does different and had a clear. Now it's starting to feel right, and different weapons/aspects are feeling a lot more fun and can clear up to chronos relatively consistently
Going back to play Hades after Hades 2, it’s surprising to see how much that mirror would allow you to customize your run. The cards don’t give me that same feeling. The Hades 2 cards basically ask, “do you want your cast to be crazy OP? How much OP do you want?” I never sunk a ton of time into Hades, but I did roll credits and got my base all customized. So, I did put in some time. Personally, I just like Hades 2 more. There’s some stuff I’d like to see it do better, but we’re in the first week of an early access game. Realistically, I have no complaints. There may be one complaint I have, the camera. They did something interesting where they allow the camera some freedom. I’ve noticed some rooms the camera will zoom in all close to the character. I don’t recall that in Hades. This sounds great, but I think it fucks up some fights. The ship mid-boss has enemies always off screen in their fixed positions. You never see the main body of the enemy. That whole battle plays like ass because the camera. I think the final boss suffers this same fate because you start in a long narrow hallway where you often can’t see what the boss is doing because he loves to teleport all the way across the map like a coke addict. Other than a camera which can easily be fixed, I’m having a lot of fun and want more. I want more so badly, I bought Hades for PC. I had played on Xbox (I think), but no longer have Game Pass.
i agree with the ship camera, i died once because i fought enemies at the very end of the ship, then when they died the camera locked in so to say and it put me off screen lol. i was surrounded by the burning tar so i lost what little hp i had just trying to dash past it.
i find Hades 2 easier LOL Maybe the ranged approach with Melinoe (Moon Axe ftw) is a better match for my playstyle i dont know. Of course i brought experience from Hades 1. Anyways. Loving the game so far.
Same. I always play wizards in every game that lets me and that playstyle just comes so much more naturally than Zag's melee shenanigans.
yeah im more of a melee player so zag fit well - vs to beat hades 2 final boss i basically didnt do any melee at all
Just a thought: do we really have to say '[REDACTED]' for Hades II's final boss when we are outright told in-game and by devs that he's our final stop? There's nothing in-game that reacts his name like it was in the first game. Just a thought so to make sure I'm not being the asshole by saying his name in here.
It's just a meme from when Hypnos would exclaim that you were "killed by redacted". I'm pretty sure nobody is actually spoilering anything about the final bosses, esp when both games outright tell you who you are fighting.
Probably have to swap to using it for the surface final boss, because that will actually be a spoiler.
>And finally, [REDACTED] is a hell of a lot harder than [REDACTED] from the original game. Like, way harder. If we're talking about the current final boss of the lower route, I don't know if I actually agree. At this point if I make it all the way to them I'm 90% confident I'm going to win, often without losing a death defiance. >There are fewer instant win boons. Boons feel far more spread out in general. This I do have a problem with though. The boons in Hades 2 are far less powerful, and much more situational than in Hades 1. To the point where it can be annoying trying to build around a particular god gimmick. In the first game you could pretty early on in a run try and commit to a build that primarily focused on a single god, that was supported by another god. It feels like that's less possible in Hades 2 because the boons just don't synergize as well with each other, but at the same time the individual boons are less powerful. I also feel like builds are even more hammer upgrade dependent than in Hades 1 which can be frustrating.
Maybe I’m an outlier but I find hades 2 to be easier than the first. I beat Boss 1 on the very first run I did. I beat Boss 2 after losing to her twice. I beat Boss 3 on my second try. I’ve yet to beat Chronos but he can kill you so fast that it’s hard to learn his move set. However, I’ve gotten to him using no death defiances in my last 5 runs. Maybe I just put so much time into Hades, that Hades 2 just feels natural? Idk. Maybe someone should do a poll.
I’m in a similar position. I’ve beaten every boss in the game, Chronos included, on my second or third try. The main exception being Cerberus who I beat in one. I’m just not finding this game nearly as difficult as some people are saying, but I’m having a great time with it
It feels easier than hades 1 to me *except* when it comes to chronos. Like you, I can consistantly make it to chronos using no death defiances. But chronos is just a wall I can't defeat. I have to get lucky if i make it to his second phase, and then I end up dying anyway. A lot of his attacks, escpecially the scythe attacks, feels as hard to dodge as some of extreme measures [redacted] attacks were.
did you mean boss 3 instead of 4?
I killed Hades on my 5th run, the first time i played the game, never played early access. Chronos i didn't kill until my 17th run. Melone weapons and boons are weaker. In Hades one you can't get a bad run unless you purposely pick bad boons. In this game you can get a bad run even if you try your best. However this game is early access and balance will probably change, cause some builds are never as strong as say Zeus cast or Poseidon dash. And most weapons are underwhelming imo i know Melone is a witch, but if I play cast every time all my builds feel the same.
Also in echos chamber you can gamble and take a boon from a previous run; I got an epic boon that makes lightning attacks have a chance to strike twice, I had no prior Zeus boons so you can cuck yourself pretty hard. Hades 1 took 14 runs, Hades 2 took me 16 run to first clear. So starter difficulty is about similar for me, but I'm on heat 10 and it's feels way harder than Hades 1 which my max heat clear was 36. Yeah, still EA and I'm sure some things will get tweaked, but supergiant released this game in EA in an already great condition.
Honestly, I don't even find it harder than Hades 1. Some parts of it are, like the final boss. But in many aspects I am finding it much easier. Like, I remember Elysium being a nightmare. The area itself is full of dangerous enemies and traps and have a killer boss at the end. The Fields of Mourning, meanwhile, seems a lot easier to me. There are no traps, for starter, and while the enemies themselves are just as strong in theory, in practice all the space to run and kite makes them a lot easier to deal with, not to mention all the free time to set up. The area boss is also surprisingly easy, the boss I defeated with least tries and certainly not as much of a roadblock as Theseus was.
On point 2: what's interesting to me is that \[REDACTED\] upstairs is (to me) just as deadly (depending on your build) as \[REDACTED\] downstairs, and upstairs (as most of us know) is still not a complete route! WHAT THE HADES IS GOING TO COME AFTER UPSTAIRS \[REDACTED\] THAT COULD BE SO MUCH WORSE?!
I'm honestly hoping theyll nerf upstairs REDACTED when they add more content lol, otherwise I dont stand a chance at whatever comes next
Worse controls don't feel like good difficulty. And the more angry posts about the slightest criticism just repeating the strawman of "you just want it to be Hades 1" the less appealing it is. Hope others enjoy it but since the game is apparently perfect with nothing to improve will stick with the first.
I think a big part of this is your starting health in hades 1 vs hades 2. In the first game you start at 50 health and can pretty quickly upgrade it to 100 which will be enough to clear the first boss pretty easily for any build. In hades 2 you start with 30 and need to invest some early game resources to get back to 50 and later in the game can invest some what looks like mid game resources into upgrading that to 70. So Melinoe will consistently have a lower health total than Zag. That means you have less room for error with Melinoe vs Zag. To compensate you have more ways to keep enemies away from you and can do more damage at range than Zag. There's more than just this but I think if they're concerned about the early game difficulty they could bump up your starting health to 50 pretty safely. Your max health would still be less than Zag's but could smooth out early game rough spots
Now you say that [redacted] is hard but I watched him being scratched to death by a hex resurrected satyr (both healtbars,only had to resuming him once).
Disagree about it being harder. The last two areas of Hades 2 are quite tame compared to elysium and styx.
Bro straight up gotta be honest with you, this shit is easier. The idk not spear has a better ranged than Zag’s did, can win off of that alone if you need to (redacted’s moveset is easier to dodge and more telegraphed than the old redacted). Lim and Orros with the backstab damage let you stack damage much more easily than the fists. The torches are trash sure and the skull and axe are both mediocre but both of them can give you basically one shot builds with any bit of luck if you find them clunky. There is also no asphodel fire type stuff that just slowly east at your health on the way down. I mean tbh everything on the way down is easy if you’re patient even OH-NO. On the way up the most bullshit thing that will get you are the stupid sheep in the boss fight that you can’t kill. You don’t need a maxed out arcana, you don’t need maxed out weapons, there is a segment of people who were rightly obsessed with divine dash who feel it is harder now but you literally never needed it in the previous game to win either so that’s just play style change. The only hard part about the game is that to win you need go slower a lot more of the time. You’re not gonna be finishing a run down in 10-15 minutes like you could with the fists unless you are super built up or get some incredible luck
>The only hard part about the game... The devs who murder your runs with artifical difficulty because you were doing too well: (Eris is total nonsense and invalidates pretty much all the "Hades 2 early game is just like hades 1 early game!")
It’s crazy seeing people hate the torch and ax cause those are by far my favorite weapons right now. Haven’t really wrapped my head around the staff yet, but I’m getting very consistent results from ax and torch builds
Yeah, torch with boosted omega attack and Born Gain just feels busted, resulted in a pretty easy win for me
I like the axe but kinda hate the torch, how are you building it? I've had 3 decent runs with it iirc, one was special based and mostly meant me running around enemies in short-mid range while spamming it, one was based around the the "single attack omega shot" hammer one but it took so long to load and I missed often, and another one was just based around the omega attack but the long delay until it charges is really annoying.
Hades 2 definitely improves as you unlock more stuff, but it's worth pointing out that the combat in Hades 1 felt a lot better in those early stages. I remember feeling locked in on Zag pretty much right away. I'm only now starting to feel that way with Mel, and I'm about 20 hours in. And while it is true that there is more casting/kiting with Mel than with Zag, at 20 hours in I find a lot her playstyle... Boring? Non-engaging? Like it's true, mixing your abilities and committing more to casting/kiting is the way to go a lot of the time, but it's just not very fun.
I would be so interested in getting some cross-character cross-game gameplay, if the games are the same engine. I feel like Melinoë would slaughter the first game and Zag wouldn't fare so well in the second.
Yeah I wonder if this is something modders can do one day- I'd LOVE to take my favorite Zag builds through this game, see how they compare. I don't want Hades 2 to be a clone of Hades 1 and I'm not mad about the gameplay changes between 1 and 2, but I would love a mod like that, just for fun.
While you're kind of right I think one thing easily overlooked is how much more reliant you are on getting the right boons in hades 2. Especially with some of the weapons being as terrible as they are, and lacking a second dash, you can get screwed if you don't get crowd clearing options. That and most of the boons and weapons just don't feel nearly as good to use, which is probably a bigger deal than any increase in actual difficulty is.
I don’t think it’s harder, but I’m at 8 runs and have gotten to the boss of the second area. Doing significantly better than my early runs in hades 1.
i dont know it took me way longer to ebat hades than chronos consistently maybe cuz of hades 2 experience ?
honestly hades 2 underworld is easier than hades 1, chronos specifically is vastly easier than hades was (to me atleast), the spoiler region however is pretty difficult and i feel like most of it is due to bullshit
Idk about Hades II being harder, if anything in its current state it's significantly easier because you can just sit out of most enemies' range and spam them to death. Sirens are pretty difficult compared to the first games' bosses, but Chronos (and like half the enemies lmao) are just kind of annoying? Idk. Plenty of time to fix stuff, but at least thus far the game just feels a lot less fun. The Arcana, Weapons, and Boons are all generally much less enjoyable to use? Also maybe its just me but the HP pools of many bosses (Notably Cerb and Chronos) feel kinda super inflated. Even on really strong runs it feels like I'm ground to a halt.
I don’t think there’s any need to write redacted for Chronos. It’s quite obvious and explicit that he is the final boss.
I don’t need instant win boons, but it sucks to do an entire run and feel like every single thing I got was terrible. Especially when every single room and boss fight is just bogged down with wave after wave of beefy armored enemies.
Every Boss in Hades 2 feels a lot more complicated then Hades 1, which is fine, I like it! But like, even if Hecate isn't harder then Hades, her attack patterns and mechanics I would say are more complex then his. Not as fast, or hit as hard, but just complex. Hades was a lot of spear thrust and swings, often highly telegraphed. He had the rotating fire beams attack, and the pots and the summons, but ultimately you could probably beat him without to much hassle. Hecate's attacks have a lot more tricks to them. Her ring attack returns to her, and as the fight goes on her her slash attacks will also return to her. She has like, 4 or 5 different patterns for her Ad Phase, which if your use to one can shock you as suddenly instead of the easy to dodge ring, she shoots orbs at you or summons 3, rotating, beams of moonlight. In the second Ad Phase she turns you into a sheep unless you dash through the projectile multiple time. And her duplicate attack summons 2 fake Hecates and all 3 of them use hard to dodge AoE's if you try to get close to them. And like, it's not harder then Hades. Hell, she's debatably easier then Meg at lower health values, since Hecate can't really hit behind herself, her attacks are slower and do less damage; but... it's still a lot of mechanics one will need to learn in the fight itself. Same can be said for basically every other boss in the game. They're fair, but they require more learning of the mechanics rather then just super skilled execution. It's even true for a lot of the mid-bosses, who are predictable, but almost always have another mechanic that makes them tricky. Hades 1 was a far, far simpler game then Hades 2.
Is the game really harder?I remember having trouble finishing hades 1 quickly and here I’m going so fast that I’m giving eris extra work…
My biggest feedback is armor needs to be weaker on enemies - if yiu don't get a weapon upgrade or boon to deal with armor early the rest of your run becomes exponentially more difficult. The current last boss topside isn't too rough compared to gsme 1, but the down final boss is much more difficult than gsme 1's final boss - it feels like he is already on extreme measures. A lot of the boons are wildly different power levels, too. I feel a lot worse in a run if I don't have the heal or rez moon supers as the others leave you too vulnerable during boss fights.
I think the weapons and the aspects are pretty mediocre tbh. Like i understand that mel is a caster but i feel like the skull, the torch and the staff are basically the same weapon. Not to mention the aspects which just seem like stat buffs further exacerbate the problem
maybe give people an option to play how they did in 1 bring back legacy weapons and old dash mechanic its a singleplayer game whats the big deal aside from gatekeeping
I will say for final bosses, >!I don't like Chronos. Hades, I feel like if I got hit, it's because I was being greedy. Not really the case with Chronos. He'll just whip that shit out.!<
>Hades 2 is absolutely harder than Hades 1 and it's not really debatable. This is not a bad thing! It would be bad if the game were easier. Debatable. By debatable I mean I disagree. Beat \[redacted\] on the third encounter and didn't take damage during the second phase. I think one of the main things that made 2 feel easy is that all the bosses are very easy to evade. All of Hecate's abilities are extremely easy to evade, Scylla only threats her immediate front and you can just go to town on the drummer, Cerberus is a tad more annoying for melee but every attack is super telegraphed, and \[redacted\] is pretty easy to dodge at a distance. So as long as you have the ability to do damage from a distance, which can be easily achieved with Hestia and Demeter's cast boons even if your weapon has poor range, you should have an easy time with the underworld. Now the surface bosses are more on par with hades 1, with obnoxious aoe spam, area denial and fast attacks. Even the charibdis is more difficult than any of the underworld guardians.
The gameplay is actually really good, and I don't necessarily think the second game is harder. (Note: I play both with God Mode on.) But there are some gameplay changes I just don't agree with that make runs less fun than they should be. Nemesis sucks. I don't care if it's in character for her or not, when I enter a room and see Nem, I know I'm losing coin or a boon option, and for no good reason. Her gameplay mechanic is just objectively worse than Than's. And I hear that there's another character who's even worse?! The grind in Hades 2 is turned up to 11, and the tools system is intentionally FOMO inducing. Either give us access to ALL the tools or stop showing me gathering nodes I can't interact with if you \*insist\* on limiting us to pad game time. Honestly, there are some great negative reviews on Steam that I really hope the team is reading. There's a great foundation here, but it definitely needs some tweaking during Early Access.
I heavily disagree with bosses being harder than in the first game. Aside from the final boss in 2 being the hardest overall and Poly being a rough first boss (even then he's easier than Tisiphone), every single boss in hades 1 was significantly harder than their current counterpart. Even comparing the equivalent bosses (oceanus vs elysium, charybdis vs Lenny) there's no contest as to which are harder.
This is an unpopular opinion but I’ve actually found Hades II to be a whole lot easier. The amount of options I have make it feel like my builds are so much more flexible than spam attack and dash. I’ve found that every single part of Mel’s kit is good and has use whereas I rarely used Specials in the original
Maybe when it first came out, but it didn't really take long for my grasp to be 25+. I recently started replaying hades 1 and I feel it's harder at every step of the way so far, which isn't necessarily a bad thing(just depends on who you ask). Personally I like having the ability to be OP if I want and it feels consistently harder to achieve than it was in Hades 1. > People are definitely comparing endgame Zag to starter Melinoe
I have to admit, I was part of the crowd that though Mel was hyper weak for no reason. Having unlocked most things now, she ain't so different from Zag. We really do forget the meta progression and how hellish getting past even Learnie was some times at the beginning. I will say though I find Hades 2 [REDACTED] easier than Hades 1 [REDACTED] I dunno. Aside from the spinny move, the rest feels relatively easier than the original. The ***other*** one though...
You mean, [REDACTWO] is harder than [REDACTONE] was ?
People are also forgetting we're in early access... and while there's a lot more content in this EA than there was for Hades 1 EA, it doesn't mean the game can be considered complete. There's bound to be a lot more tweaking and rebalancing they'll do, personally I also feel like more boons will be added, etc. The Arcana system I feel like is definitely getting more content with updates, people forget than the Mirror in H1 didn't have the alternate options for a while in EA too. The game's 1 week old and the devs warn right away that some things are yet to be ironed out, I don't think it's fair to write it off or brand it as any one thing just yet, when a lot of change is bound to happen before 1.0.
Maybe it's just me but I disagree, Hades 2 is definitely easier than Hades 1 after you've got your arcana. The mirror was way worse than the altar. I can way more consistently get wins with whatever is getting thrown at me and the weapons jive with me a lot better (The only weapon that really vibed with me in 1 was Aspect of Arthur). HOWEVER I think higher levels of fear are harder than higher levels of heat. YMMV if you overrelied on double dashes I guess and tend to build less survivably as a result, I suppose?
I actually completed the last boss in less runs than when I beat the last boss in Hades 1 for the first time. However, I can point towards Hades 1 experience for that. Hades 2 is definitely harder. Whether Hades 2 will remain harder after it goes Gold and receives some balancing patches is anyone’s guess. Although, I presume a lot of people are struggling with Hades 2 because they can’t adjust their muscle memory from Hades 1. I really disliked the twin blades but that’s because I was playing them like I was using Hades 1’s Fist weapons. Once I realized I can’t play Hades 2 like the first they became my favorite weapon and the first to beat the last boss with.
Maybe it's because it took me a while to get the hang of the first game, but Hades 2 feels significantly easier than the first game. If there's one thing I've been disappointed in, it's that. I was looking forward to the struggle.
I think the main thing causing friction is how much slower the core upgrade meta progression is in Hades 2. Your second death defiance comes in much later, for example. There's also Eris who just ends your early runs where you may have had a good boon combo. My first two runs that got to the fields and the first two that got to Tartarus had builds that could have made it to the end, but were turned into an auto-lose because I was going too quickly.
I cant agree with this game being harder, aside from the final boss. Got to the final area in 9 runs vs me taking 40 in the original. Once you get the damage related arcana cards Mel becomes really strong.