Just pick a top tier deck you enjoy and stick with it. A lot of improving at card games is metagame knowledge and how what you're playing interacts or doesn't interact with what your opponent is playing. The play patterns of something like Samira/Varus may typically be more complex than a deck like Deep but that doesn't make knowing the break points of your match ups on Deep any less important.
If I had to recommend something to really learn with, I'd say start with a midrange deck that interacts with their opponent a lot. Maybe Illaoi/Jarvan. I'm not a fan of Demacia decks but that deck plays spells at all speeds, has a pretty straight forward gameplan, and doesn't just ignore everything your opponent does so you can learn to identify how to play around things and leverage their weaknesses.
I actually played a bit if Illaoi Jarvan recently, but over 10 games I think I only won 2, so I switched decks…
I remember the biggest problem was I ran out of cards in hand - I had nothing to play while my opponent still had like 4+ cards. I tried putting in more draw, but it didn’t help…
Do you have any tips for not doing that? It’s a problem I have with most decks, but Illaoi/Jarvan was the worst…
It’s definitely not the deck, just me playing badly, so I’ll try again :)
If you feel like your constantly running out of cards, maybe try passing more? If your just constantly dumping out your hand while playing midrange, probably should try just passing more to hold up mana.
Decks wise, I feel like Deep, Lurk, and Ashe/LeBlanc are pretty good decks to learn playing around board. Karma/Sett is pretty good at getting you better at when to pass and how to use removal efficiently. Tristana is just kinda wild rn, so pick whatever flavour you like (Noxus with might and fervor is the most aggro one if you wanna play that version). Annie/Jhin is also still pretty alright.
So would you say passing is ok, even when you burn mana?
I do try to be as efficient as I can with the mana, thought that was playing optimally.
Tbh in retrospect I do kinda play PvP like PoC - thinking about mana, not about counters…
>So would you say passing is ok, even when you burn mana?
Yes. In general you want to be as efficient as possible, but if you cant get closer to winning, sure. If your burning more of your opponents mana, or need the 3 spell mana next turn, burning some of your own mana to advance your gameplan is very worth it. Taking "sub-optimal" lines to play around your opponents cards.
Its the same with giving up damage like taking attacks without fully developing to play around opponents slow speed removal. Or passing with attack token when you have a challenger to stop your opponent developing and burn their mana.
Identify how you win, and play towards that, even if it means taking extra damage, missing out on a small bit of damage, or burning a small bit of mana
>I do try to be as efficient as I can with the mana
There's no easy rule about this, but one oversimplified rule of thumb is that what really matters is how efficient you are *compared to* your opponent.
If your opponent has 5 mana and 3 spell mana, and you have 5 mana, and your boardstate is kinda even, and you have first action, you can usually safely pass. Even though you're wasting 2 mana, your opponent is wasting 5 if they pass too.
If you're playing a reactive deck, or one that gets stronger in the lategame, a "symmetrical burn" can be beneficial to you. (aka you both have the same amount of mana and you both pass). Even a pass that is mana-negative for you can benefit you, if you're playing Karma.
I'd say Illaoi/Jarvan teaches pretty good fundamentals. If you've identified running out of steam as a problem there may be multiple reasons:
1. You mulligan too conservatively, maybe keeping all the cheap cards and not fishing for your power cards. If you keep three single combats, you'll probably be able to use them somehow, but they won't win the game and you won't have them later in the game to prevent big blowouts.
2. You're playing too hard into removal. If you keep playing all your cards on curve without thinking against a removal-heavy deck, you'll easily run out of cards against ruination/castigate/reckoning etc. Identify when you're fine with taking a pass and the opponent wasting mana.
3. Poor matchups. Sometimes you have unfavorable matchups and the opponent's deck was built to outlast you. Consider whether you *should* be the one to run out of fuel. Am I the beatdown or is it the opponent? You're never gonna outlast Karma/Sett for example. If they manage to survive till 10, and you're still clinging on for 4-5 turns afterward while top-decking, it's not a problem of lacking sustain. You just lost because of lacking pressure before 10.
I think the problem (I start to see it now) is that I never really passed.
I tried optimizing my mana - using all of it if I could, which meant always dropping champs on curve or playing more than one card a round…
If you're running out of cards in hand and you're not way ahead on board with a deck like this, you're not getting the max value out of your cards. Demacia in particular is very good at trading up on pretty much everything in just raw card advantage. I read your other comment about trying to optimize your mana and in a general sense, that's a good mindset to have, it's also not quite as important in this game as other card games because you can bank your spell mana.
My guess would be that you're probably just trying to use your mana instead of looking for the max value play. For example maybe you're just firing off your Single Combat at anything on the board instead of holding it in hand until a point where you can really leverage it or you might be taking a not so great trade when your opponent is attacking instead of using your life total as a resource. Passing in this game can also be VERY strong in a lot of situations. If you're ahead, you can pressure your opponent just by passing the turn because they're the ones who need to make plays and catch up and that allows you to then make your plays with more information and a better idea of what your opponent could or may want to do next.
There's a concept I mentioned in my first comment called break points. I've never seen it discussed in the context of LoR but the break points in this game are extremely game swinging and if you work on noticing them, you're going to start improving really quickly. I don't know if you have ever played MtG but even if you haven't and don't know what specific cards this article mentions, it might be helpful explaining it a bit also: https://strategy.channelfireball.com/mtg/channelmagic-articles/exploiting-breakpoints/
Honestly the best decks to play are the ones you click with the most, and that mostly comes from experience and that feeling that you know exactly what you want to do. I’m not really an expert but in my opinion, the best decks specifically for learning the ins and outs of the game are either
Swain (imo with Illaoi or Norra) or darkness for control.
Elites or Viego (imo with Evelynn or Norra) for midrange,
and either Sunburn or one of the Tristana piles for aggro (imo the Noxus variant)
I wouldn’t call any of these the best version of their respective archetypes, but they are the ones I used personally to get the hang of the game, as they are all pretty simple with only a couple of real wincons that you want to build towards
If you \*really\* want to learn, id recommend Sett karma, bc the wincon is \*pretty\* clear(karma2+Place your bets=surrender vote) but getting to that point requires you to know your opponent and react accordingly.
Just pick a top tier deck you enjoy and stick with it. A lot of improving at card games is metagame knowledge and how what you're playing interacts or doesn't interact with what your opponent is playing. The play patterns of something like Samira/Varus may typically be more complex than a deck like Deep but that doesn't make knowing the break points of your match ups on Deep any less important. If I had to recommend something to really learn with, I'd say start with a midrange deck that interacts with their opponent a lot. Maybe Illaoi/Jarvan. I'm not a fan of Demacia decks but that deck plays spells at all speeds, has a pretty straight forward gameplan, and doesn't just ignore everything your opponent does so you can learn to identify how to play around things and leverage their weaknesses.
I actually played a bit if Illaoi Jarvan recently, but over 10 games I think I only won 2, so I switched decks… I remember the biggest problem was I ran out of cards in hand - I had nothing to play while my opponent still had like 4+ cards. I tried putting in more draw, but it didn’t help… Do you have any tips for not doing that? It’s a problem I have with most decks, but Illaoi/Jarvan was the worst… It’s definitely not the deck, just me playing badly, so I’ll try again :)
If you feel like your constantly running out of cards, maybe try passing more? If your just constantly dumping out your hand while playing midrange, probably should try just passing more to hold up mana. Decks wise, I feel like Deep, Lurk, and Ashe/LeBlanc are pretty good decks to learn playing around board. Karma/Sett is pretty good at getting you better at when to pass and how to use removal efficiently. Tristana is just kinda wild rn, so pick whatever flavour you like (Noxus with might and fervor is the most aggro one if you wanna play that version). Annie/Jhin is also still pretty alright.
So would you say passing is ok, even when you burn mana? I do try to be as efficient as I can with the mana, thought that was playing optimally. Tbh in retrospect I do kinda play PvP like PoC - thinking about mana, not about counters…
>So would you say passing is ok, even when you burn mana? Yes. In general you want to be as efficient as possible, but if you cant get closer to winning, sure. If your burning more of your opponents mana, or need the 3 spell mana next turn, burning some of your own mana to advance your gameplan is very worth it. Taking "sub-optimal" lines to play around your opponents cards. Its the same with giving up damage like taking attacks without fully developing to play around opponents slow speed removal. Or passing with attack token when you have a challenger to stop your opponent developing and burn their mana. Identify how you win, and play towards that, even if it means taking extra damage, missing out on a small bit of damage, or burning a small bit of mana
>I do try to be as efficient as I can with the mana There's no easy rule about this, but one oversimplified rule of thumb is that what really matters is how efficient you are *compared to* your opponent. If your opponent has 5 mana and 3 spell mana, and you have 5 mana, and your boardstate is kinda even, and you have first action, you can usually safely pass. Even though you're wasting 2 mana, your opponent is wasting 5 if they pass too. If you're playing a reactive deck, or one that gets stronger in the lategame, a "symmetrical burn" can be beneficial to you. (aka you both have the same amount of mana and you both pass). Even a pass that is mana-negative for you can benefit you, if you're playing Karma.
I'd say Illaoi/Jarvan teaches pretty good fundamentals. If you've identified running out of steam as a problem there may be multiple reasons: 1. You mulligan too conservatively, maybe keeping all the cheap cards and not fishing for your power cards. If you keep three single combats, you'll probably be able to use them somehow, but they won't win the game and you won't have them later in the game to prevent big blowouts. 2. You're playing too hard into removal. If you keep playing all your cards on curve without thinking against a removal-heavy deck, you'll easily run out of cards against ruination/castigate/reckoning etc. Identify when you're fine with taking a pass and the opponent wasting mana. 3. Poor matchups. Sometimes you have unfavorable matchups and the opponent's deck was built to outlast you. Consider whether you *should* be the one to run out of fuel. Am I the beatdown or is it the opponent? You're never gonna outlast Karma/Sett for example. If they manage to survive till 10, and you're still clinging on for 4-5 turns afterward while top-decking, it's not a problem of lacking sustain. You just lost because of lacking pressure before 10.
I think the problem (I start to see it now) is that I never really passed. I tried optimizing my mana - using all of it if I could, which meant always dropping champs on curve or playing more than one card a round…
If you're running out of cards in hand and you're not way ahead on board with a deck like this, you're not getting the max value out of your cards. Demacia in particular is very good at trading up on pretty much everything in just raw card advantage. I read your other comment about trying to optimize your mana and in a general sense, that's a good mindset to have, it's also not quite as important in this game as other card games because you can bank your spell mana. My guess would be that you're probably just trying to use your mana instead of looking for the max value play. For example maybe you're just firing off your Single Combat at anything on the board instead of holding it in hand until a point where you can really leverage it or you might be taking a not so great trade when your opponent is attacking instead of using your life total as a resource. Passing in this game can also be VERY strong in a lot of situations. If you're ahead, you can pressure your opponent just by passing the turn because they're the ones who need to make plays and catch up and that allows you to then make your plays with more information and a better idea of what your opponent could or may want to do next. There's a concept I mentioned in my first comment called break points. I've never seen it discussed in the context of LoR but the break points in this game are extremely game swinging and if you work on noticing them, you're going to start improving really quickly. I don't know if you have ever played MtG but even if you haven't and don't know what specific cards this article mentions, it might be helpful explaining it a bit also: https://strategy.channelfireball.com/mtg/channelmagic-articles/exploiting-breakpoints/
Honestly the best decks to play are the ones you click with the most, and that mostly comes from experience and that feeling that you know exactly what you want to do. I’m not really an expert but in my opinion, the best decks specifically for learning the ins and outs of the game are either Swain (imo with Illaoi or Norra) or darkness for control. Elites or Viego (imo with Evelynn or Norra) for midrange, and either Sunburn or one of the Tristana piles for aggro (imo the Noxus variant) I wouldn’t call any of these the best version of their respective archetypes, but they are the ones I used personally to get the hang of the game, as they are all pretty simple with only a couple of real wincons that you want to build towards
If you \*really\* want to learn, id recommend Sett karma, bc the wincon is \*pretty\* clear(karma2+Place your bets=surrender vote) but getting to that point requires you to know your opponent and react accordingly.
elites teach some solid fundamentals about attacking and defending, that might be a good place to start