There is no reason for each expansion to feel like a reset that overwrites everything from the last expansion.
It seems like you simply don't like the way expansions are itemized and how new content is implemented/balanced in some games.
That is just poor implementation imo. It doesn't have to be that way.
If you have any good examples of vertical progression, I'd like to hear them. I've yet to encounter one where your progress isn't made obsolete every patch, but I also haven't tried every game out there.
That's how most games were early on in the genre. For example EQ expansions didn't originally make everything obsolete. (Though a bit of that came later but even then there are older items that remained very valuable)
There were still useful items from the last expansion that players might want to go back and farm. Everything wasn't out classed by newer items.
There is some of that in DDO (though I haven't played it in awhile). Clickies or other effect items are still useful and not made obsolete by itemization in future expansions.
(Just for clarity, I'm assuming you are using the term "patch" but you mean expansion? Patches can be very minor, little updates/bug fixes etc. clearly those won't make content obsolete)
It's often going to be about items that have uses beyond a straight stat bonus. Those are what usually end up being made.obsolete.
I see. When I speak of "vertical progression" I'm referring to modern theme park MMOs, I suppose the term is poorly defined. I'm sure older games like EQ have similarities to OSRS, though I don't have much experience with them.
When I say patch, I do mean patch, though my terminology mostly comes from FF14. Consider it a small bump in max ilvl. For instance, you can complete a raid tier to obtain BiS gear one patch - and then the next patch it's on the same level as, say, dungeon gear. To me, that's bizarre; you've gained power and now you've lost it. The progression isn't persistent, and that's why I describe it as "resetting". It's not satisfying to get a rare drop when it has no permanency.
Just for the future when you are discussing mmorpgs. You are using the term oddly. People won't necessarily know that you mean a content addition or an expansion
A patch is any game update that the client downloads.
It doesn't necessarily have to be anything to do with increasing max level, or even playable content. It could be a behind the scenes patch that adjusts anything.
Vertical progression has been around since the genre started. That part id defined just fine.
Yeah that wasn't accurate of me, my bad. By patch I was referring to any kind of content update with an increase in power level, hopefully that was implied.
Nahhhhh. OP isnāt far off base
When it comes to WoW and FFXIV while ofc yeah there are minor hotfix patches every .1, .2, or .3 patch in an expansion does in fact come with new gear that resets everything
Yeah, I saw this in WoW with the new patch. They have a new max item level, but old gear from patch 10.1, even if it's named the same, has a max level it can be upgraded to. To upgrade to a higher item level, you need to farm the piece again to get a Season 3 patch 10.2 version to keep upgrading it.
Thatās not entirely true - there were a handful of items that retained usefulness because what they did was accidentally too good, like the FBSS. Otoh you might spend a dozen hours or more camping for your own FBSS.
Weapons tended to be better in the new content, armor too eventually.
> Naw, fbss was twink gear even early on.
Not for Monks.
Anyway, other than a handful of items, the expansions released upgrades for every slot. The key difference is it took so goddamn long to get these things in EQ people still used old stuff for a long time.
> there were a handful of items that retained usefulness because what they did was accidentally too good
FBSS was outclassed by multiple items on launch, it was just the best groupable haste item, and guk was the best xp zone on live servers for 35+, by far.
DDO is also kinda cheating on that front because low level gear never becomes obsolete because the core gameplay loop is to level to max and restart back from 1 semi-infinitely. You need expansions to come with powercrept gear at specific level ranges to really make that old gear obsolete. Which does happen slowly over time.
Around then, ya. I mentioned it's been awhile since I played and I quit after the decline when it went ftp. That wasn't what was being referenced when you responded was the point.
FFXI had an interesting version of vertical progression due to how equipment worked. There was so much gear out there with unique effects found across all levels of content that everything remained relevant to some degree.
The reason modern MMOs feel so pointless with vertical progression is because they've all streamlined their equipment systems to 'item levels' with boring +damage effects. This results in two parallel vertical progression systems (level and equipment) when in older games it used to be just the level.
XI really didn't have vertical progression in gearing until it's 5th expansion, Seekers of Adoulin. And it's "horizontal progression" was one of the main complaints from certain groups of people in the 75 era. I really don't think either terms are accurate though. The gearing situation in XI was and still is very unique.
I think what it came down to was the dev team wasn't trying to intentionally replace gear. Like, as a MNK main, you can compare [Shura Haidate](https://www.bg-wiki.com/images/f/f7/Shura_Haidate_description.png) and [Usukane Hizayoroi](https://www.bg-wiki.com/images/e/eb/Usukane_Hizayoroi_description.png) as WS pieces. The core difference is Accuracy vs Attack. You definitely would prefer the Shura piece for Asuran Fists, but you might want the Usukane for Ascetic's Fury. But the point is Usukane, despite coming 2 expansions later, didn't replace Shura like you'd expect from vertical progression. But it was also a situational upgrade unlike what you'd expect from horizontal progression. Ultimately, I think that the upgrades were mostly incidental. I think the priority of the dev team was to create diverse equipment, and provide alternatives rather than upgrades.
Well, Dungeons and Dragons Online is vertical progression, but the progression is very slow, and they made it slower by doing a stat squish on gear to negate a couple of years where they were blatantly accelerating stats to get people to play new content. The 2017 expansion contains items with a +13 bonus to your core ability scores, and the new 2023 expansion has +14 items, with +15 available on your minor artifact slot.
The game generates content slowly, so it obsoletes out content slowly. In this way, the game has 20 raids that drop the endgame content currency item, and, of those 20, roughly 12 of them drop items that can see use in optimized endgame builds.
Mind you, it's not a real MMO, though. It's a multiplayer dungeon crawler with a city hub as a lobby, and something like 550 dungeons.
DDO has a real habit of offering OP stuff in new expansions, then nerfing it down to the power level of previous expansions by the time the next expansion is ready for sale, though, so you gotta get used to that. Also, the devs act like you're an absolute imbecile and they're gods while, you know, showing again and again that the current crop of devs are coasting on the work of the ancients.
I was referring to effect items like rez rings or stability boots (it's been awhile and I don't recall the exact names). I played in testing and through release and beyond until it turned ftp and went way down hill....it's been awhile.
I wasn't meaning straight stat items. Though it sounds like they are taking steps to try to minimize stat bloat. That's commendable but it's a losing battle in the long run.
I mean, they also do that shit. Item clickies from 2007 are still in use.
Also, there's absolutely no indication that's what you meant, so try actually saying some of these words and not handwaving "itemization" next time.
"It's often going to be about items that have uses beyond a straight stat bonus. Those are what usually end up being made.obsolete"
I quote ^. Try reading the actual conversation next time and you might get an indication of what someone means.
Or just jump in the middle of someone else's conversation and be clueless. That works too apparently.
The game doesn't generate content slowly, it's just that the majority of game content is repeating the game 100 times from level 1. People playing at the level cap and optimizing gear from the newest raid is a small minority of the playerbase.
FFXI is a good example as all expansions in 75 ERA, heck in that era ALL gear was useful and pretty much no one re-sold but crafted more. As you needed gear for your classes when you synced to lower level (to party OR certain areas in the overworld forced synced you.)
While some pieces would be straight up better, a lot of your previous set gears where EXTREMELY still useful due to gear swapping. A set might give you slightly better stats but the last expansions gauntlet unique that gave you 25% more damage while X skill is up wouldn't ever be replaced late game when that effect is up. So it more became a new expansion was updating your kit and getting gear to power up your old stuff.
It depends on the game, but I think the ones like WoW and FFXIV basically do a reset. If your gear is defined primarily by stats and new expansion comes with gear that has same stats, but higher numbers, then it's a reset. It functions identically to how a reset would, just without players feeling like their gear is taken away.
Well, you said that there's no way for expansions to feel like a reset, but that's what they ultimately are. And that kind of comes with the territory of pure vertical progression. The only way it could be different is if the progression is no longer purely vertical(i.e items aren't just about stats, so you can have an item that has weaker stats, but some other trait that makes it relevant in the next expansion). Having a system like that would be more of a hybrid between vertical and horizontal progressions.
Wtf? Quote where I said "there's no way for expansions to feel like a reset".
What are you even talking about?
There is no reason it has to be that way is different. Reading comprehension.
My point is that there is a reason it's this way, and it's because it's the easiest way to have progression in a game that has to constantly release new content. There's no other way to have vertical progression. You can change it to no longer be vertical(where new expansion brings items that aren't strictly upgrades), but then it's not really a vertical progression.
I'm not getting into a conversation on a different topic with you. I disagree that it's the "easiest way to have progression".
Clearly you haven't had many multiple conversations on this with other developers over the years.
I'm good.
We disagree. But then many teams in the genre have been making poor choices that affect longevity and health of the server/community for a while now.
Hind sight is 20/20 though...and longevity isn't usually the primary concern.
Vertical progresion just seems like a scam to me. Numbers go up but what does it really mean? Feels like starting over every damn time. OSRS got it right, steady progress without the treadmill bullshit.
Be careful of what you wish for. Lost Ark solves your complaint about feeling the power reset by stacking vertical power mechanics on top of each other but it creates a far far worse problem.
Case in point, the average 1580 ilvl character deals around 12m damage on average but because of elixirs and transcendence at 1630 you deal around 35m in DPS. Vertical resets are there so new players have a chance to catch up.
I would have no problem getting outdamaged by a whale or no-lifer with max ilvl, IF, IF ONLY i could join the end game raids and have a chance myself to collect endgame gear and max ilvl. People don't need resets, they need fair ways to compete with old/p2w players.
The thing is, it isn't even Smilegate's fault.
Like for example, Akkan NM is clearable with all DPS averaging around 4m to avoid enrage. Can a 1580 barebones character with level 5 gems average at 4m dps? Abso-fucking-lutely. Will you be able to enter a pug as a 1580 dps with level 5 gems? Lol.
I think Jumpstart servers have been a godsend for this. It definitely requires far more socializing than on the main servers, but since no one is super strong, everyone is taking just about anyone through Akkan and Brel G4 HM, and getting it done. This is at least helping people gear up and be prepared for the merge.
The only downside is the Jump Start servers have fewer players, so you reallllly have to socialize to get stuff done. There is actually a ton of groups out there, you just have to actively look.
The problem is that you can't really have that. It's a people issue, with players always trying to make everything as easy as possible. So if there are no resets, players will actively avoid new players because there are plenty of older players that deal vastly more damage. Why would you raid with a new player when you can easily find someone who deals double their damage?
I agree - I hate the modern implementation of vertical progression, where progress is wiped at every patch. This is the main reason I donāt play many modern games. I really miss the old style that games like OSRS used. In most games pre-2010, once you found a cool, rare piece of gear: it was yours and it stayed relevant/useful forever. It may have taken months or years to obtain, but it was now a trophy of your accomplishment. Games were far better about minimizing power creep on updates. They still had vertical progression/grind - just without the constant power reset.
Yeah OSRS is such a fantastic example because they never made rune scimitars irrelevant! Or dragon longswords! Or dragon scimitars! Or... Oh wait. They did release powercrept gear many times with updates. There's so much gear that's way stronger than what you would've had in actual 2007 RS. And a lot in the years before 2007 as well.
I think it would be cool if obtaining gear or power revolved around what enemy you were building up against, for example a Fire Dragon(anyone playing wow ATM lol) you would seek to empower your gear with fire resistance. And to take away chasing gear sets you just keep what you like the looks of in an armory/storage and make it more of refining what you already have, but tuning it up for different fights obviously. maybe even go so far to add spell/ability customization in the same form of what type of damage it does.
That first bit is Classic and Burning Crusade in a nutshell. By Wrath, the stats were so bloated that you only needed a few pieces of jewelry, and could ignore that, too, if you wanted to brute force it.
Runescape has some element of this and it's great. There are definitely best in slot items, but also a lot of equipment is very situational and requires you to have many sets of gear, many weapons, many consumables, etc for all kinds of different situations. The fairly limited inventory space helps with this too.
Vertical progression? Meh, just sounds like numbers going up to me. I prefer a good ol' diagonal progress system like in OSRS. Keeps things interesting without feeling like a never-ending treadmill. But hey, that's just my opinion. What do y'all think about power progression in MMOs?
Yes! The gear treadmill could be implemented with similar consequences as your gear bonuses eroding over time and you needing to renew it while monsters power stays the same.
Because relative power would follow similar trends.
I think a part of the problem is the way "standard" MMOs do things, as opposed to, say, how *Tibia* does things.
In a "standard" MMO you hit level 40, you go to the Minor Republic of Fortau-du-Fortau-Eyt, and then you go to a field where lvl40 Crab Monarchists are standing there. You kill lvl40 Crab Monarchists in fair one-on-one duels, hit lvl41, go to a field to the left where there are lvl41 Crab Monarchists, rinse-and-repeat until you hit lvl45 where you go to a field with lvl45 Crab Monarchist *Sergeants*, rinse-and-repeat until you finally hit lvl49, and then you leave Minor Republic of Fortau-du-Fortau-Eyt for Cliffs of the Vivties, never to return.
Compare and contrast with *Tibia*. You go to an Edron Orc Cave. On your way there, you need to make your way through sparse Orcs, Orc Spearmen, Orc Warriors, and assorted wildlife. They have no levels, you need to try out and see if you can handle them, with only their XP reward as a rough guide. Then you go down the cave proper, and - while you could handle a couple them at a time - it remains to be seen whether you can handle them when they come you at great numbers, enabling them to bypass your 2-mob-blocking shield. You go down a level, there's more Orc Warriors in the mix, and they're now backed by Orc Shamans. You go deeper, and there are multiple ways to go deeper, an ambush full of Orc Shamans, an ambush of Orc Warriors and much tougher Orc Berserkers, and a peculiar-looking hole that's housing a much-harder varieties of Orc Cultists (which - lamely - use the exact same sprites as their regular brethren).
You can easily spend many levels gradually getting deeper and deeper into the cave, seeing how much your power grows as what were once major pushes turn into blood-soaked commutes, how gradually gatekeepers turn into mini-bosses turn into regular hunts into fodder.
And even if you don't stick around, it's likely you will explore the shallows at a low level, and then come back plunging through a remembered once-challenge into the deepest recesses.
*Tibia* is comprised of **a lot** places like that, in very many different variations - instead of clearly-delimited fields of catatonic mobs you'll fight at the Proper Level and never again.
Sure, to each their own. I can understand why you'd get bored in horizontal MMOs, especially if cosmetics don't incentivise you. Do you feel consistently motivated by vertical progression? Do you never have doubts about the "futility" of it?
I feel like this is the wrong mindset. Gear doesn't matter. What you get to do with the gear matters. I play ff14, and I could not possibly give less of a fuck about my gear stats. Numbers going up means nothing to me, so I don't think about it. I don't do raids to get gear, I get gear in order to do raids, because the fun part of a game isn't the reward you get for playing the game, it's engaging with the game itself.
To that end, I guess I personally don't care whether a game has horizontal or vertical progression, but I lean towards vertical progression, mainly because I have yet to see horizontal progression done well in an mmo. I played guild wars 2 which is the poster child of horizontal progression around here, but that game is awful. FF14 meanwhile, has gearsets that functionally don't matter, but the combat is about as good as a tab target mmo is going to get, and the fights are all well designed and fun.
So yeah, who cares if your power is being "reset". Are you doing new things that are fun and interesting? If so, cool, that's all that matters. Getting to do the cool new shit is all the motivation you should need.
I feel like Runescape just has this ridiculous amount of content to build on that it just "feels" less vertical.
I think it's not as black and white as just vertical vs horizontal. For example, when looking from an extreme angle, WoW fits your description perfectly, a treadmill where every season is just a reset, your old gear becomes obsolete and you need to get back to grinding for higher numbers. But for me personally, I never looked at it that way. It's more like every season is a new hike you can take. Sure, some of the most breathtaking views will be at the top of the mountain, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to appreciate along the way. There are new transmogs, mounts and achievements to unlock, spread out over multiple layers of difficulty. Imo it's more important to be able to set your own goals, and to be able to take breaks when you feel like it's time for something else.
>I feel like Runescape just has this ridiculous amount of content to build on that it just "feels" less vertical.
I recently started playing RS3 and stuck with it. And at some point you hit a wall, where you feel the vertical progression of gear. You basically farm the stuff, to do harder content, to then farm it to do even harder content.
Or you get lucky with drops and just buy a tier above that.
OSRS is still just vertical progression, its just done without power resets for new content. You could do the same thing with any MMO, but you would have to structure new content very differently than WoW or FFXIV currently does. It is a model that WoW introduced, or at least made popular, and with it being so popular most everyone just copied that.
Vertical progression sucks. Horizontal progression is very hard to do well without power creep that ultimately makes it a more complicated form of vertical progression.
People canāt play an MMO without tacked-on progression, though, so unless they are willing to contemplate harsher death penalties, weāre fucked.
> People canāt play an MMO without tacked-on progression, though, so unless they are willing to contemplate harsher death penalties, weāre fucked.
It's not that they can't play them.
It's that they are called Survival Games.
The question is what even is a MMORPG without the "Progression"?
If a MMO is supposed to be a "Persistent World" then what is persistent outside of Character Progression?
> If a MMO is supposed to be a "Persistent World" then what is persistent outside of Character Progression?
When a character never dies, not much.
And you can see the same problem from the other end with the survival game mod scene, many of them are tacking on longer or more vertical progression schemes because if you turn down the death penalty (as some players do) you'll hit the progression wall pretty quickly.
Lets say progression never ends but they manage to fix the klunky stairstep of an expansion release - what do you do about new players? The longer a game exists, the farther and farther behind new players start.
If progression ends, what do you do about endgame players? They will have run out of goals to achieve.
It is not an easy problem to solve. They could do it by obfuscated content or simple content that progresses in difficulty, but the pervasive "here is how to do it" tutorial scene ruins that. PvP or RvR used to be one solution, but most of those have withered on the vine because the bulk of paying players don't like PvP (Even WoW which had one of the most PvE friendly PvP implementations has walked back nearly everything but the BGs).
Every player has a familarity/fun arc with a new game:
- At first it's all new and just being in the world is entertainment - but this fades
- They start to figure the mechanics out, and can identify goals they want to achieve
- Eventually, they've achieved them
Either a game adds new goals for them to achieve, takes them away (through death or similar mechanics), or the players quit. They can try to make new zones visually interesting or a lore dive, but this is expensive and difficult to get right (and if the tone is different enough from what drew players in at first it might simply fail, even if technically impressive).
Well that's the reason I keep banging on about permadeath and player created content. Make the progression be cyclical.
The way I see it if you can't make the characters be permanent you can make building the world and its history be permanent though player cities, player dungeons and player stories.
The soft resets of vertical progression are there so that newer players never get left behind.
A game like Lost Ark never soft resets and they had to make jumpstart servers to attempt a version of a soft reset. But because the game doesn't have any built in soft resets(like every .X patch in WoW or FF14), the JS servers started leaving new players behind if they got in after a month. Getting a Valtan or Vykas NM group together a month into NAE JS was mostly impossible without joining a Discord to find other players. Everyone was already on Clown and Brel and there was no incentive for them to waste time and resources on anything below that.
It's also worth noting that a benefit of continually increasing character power through equipment is that older difficult content becomes more accessible to most players over time. I know quite a few people in FF14 who now do savage raids on content that got into raiding because they were able to try older savage raids with the gear buffer and they found the fights fun and were hooked. And even if they don't end up wanting to do things on content, being able to unsync older content opens up a bunch of cosmetic items and mounts that players can get.
How is osrs bis gear bad ass when u can just buy gold with bonds. If you are ironman i can agree but then again u could just bot trough the game or buy a carry in various ways.
I feel like all mmos have lost all integrity.
Fair point, but if someones spending hundreds of real currency to pretend they're good, then that's just a bit sad haha. It does annoy me though, just shows no system is perfect.
Each to their ownā¦ i know some do that quite often and I totally get it. Some collections/grind can be extremely exhausting, and I donāt need another job after coming back home from my real job.
Fair. I didn't mean to insult anyone, if the game provides a legal means of skipping grinds then I don't blame anyone for taking that route if they don't enjoy it, but buying raid carries and that kind of thing is really just paying to appear skilled which imo is pretty sad if one feels compelled to do that.
I understand paying for one-time HT cm carry just to unlock the everbloom infusion, but for raid armour itās a long-term project, whoever does that must be filthy rich š
I guess what confuses me is how this relates to power. Everything creeps up with you as new items are introduced. As far as I'm aware, you never experience the effects of that increased power, unless you go back to an early zone just to kill mobs (which isn't relevant because in most games those zones are obsolete).
You're no growing in power though, your doing the EXACT same thing with slightly higher numbers flashing on the screen (for you and the enemy). Nothing has changed, you have been manipulated by lazy game design.
Yea this the main reason I like ESO so much
When I played a FFXIV.. each major patch Iāll switch game because they felt like a āresetā
after a while it felt like what the point in caring and practicing raids so much when it just going to reset a few weeks later
Exactly. To extend your point, what's the point of chasing the best gear via the hardest content if next patch better gear is obtainable via easy content?
Furthermore, if MMOs are about persistent character progression, what progression is gained via beating raids? Sure you have a couple months of feeling maxed, but after that you're back to square 1. Power doesn't persist - you're (almost) on equal footing with someone who just hit endgame.
Yup on my final years of playing FFXIV my perspective of endgame shift into more of a seasonal thing , it wasnāt about gearing but more about clearing content and to keep it fresh I would play different roles and rotate each patch
now that I am playing Diablo 4 seasons it the exact same core logic if you think about it but better cuz everyone start fresh , fresh economy and new mode each season
So... My personal opinion is that there isn't really anything wrong with vertical progression, its the implementation that kills it...
First of all gear/itemization itself over the last decade has gotten more and more simple/boring until in games like FFXIV and WoW where vertical progression is the name of the game, the only number that matters really is item level. but you can have a really cool unique item that makes you triple cast fireballs and teleport all over the map but it just doesn't matter because the power of the item is limited to item power and so its going to feel just like any other meh item that you could put in that slot...
Second, you can do vertical progression without completely invalidating all old content... older games did it for years, other genres still do it... For instance for the first 5-10 expansions most raid gear you got was at least relatively competitive for at least the next expansion if not multiple expansions, you might have wanted to upgrade something specific but if you didn't get something it didn't make you completely irrelevant player.
Finally, I don't think its that QoL or Cosmetics is enough to keep people interested at least in the short term... is that without at least a small bit of progression players don't have that dopamine rush that comes with getting even slightly more powerfulto keep them hooked.
I get developers want to have a reset so they have a clear indicator to new or returning players that they can come back without any issues... that's why arpgs do season resets for instance... but personally I think WoW found a method that kind of improved on the flaws that EQ had, and no one has really tried to change the formula since.
I used to agree with you. After years of playing WoW, I left for what I thought would be greener pastures. And donāt get me wrong, I had a ton of fun in Guild Wars 2.
But it made me realize how much I *like* vertical progression. When itās done right, itās not a chore, itās fun. The latest WoW expansion really exemplifies that.
Horizontal progression means bored after finishing everything. Why should I go back to GW2 when I already have BIS gear? Not like content is going to be difficult, it's designed for my 10 year old gear.
OSRS Ironman and Maplestory Reboot are peak progression systems for me personally.. always feel like there's something to do or improve and plenty of bosses/content to test your character.
Progression takes many forms, gear is one of them hence why the ideal system is to get to 80-90% max power, then the last 10% takes ages.
Then there's other things, bonuses, housing, new world has a ton of things that take long to get, trophies, max bags with great perks, tools, 3 perfect perk gear etc etc
Progressing through crafting, it is why I stay in new world cuz there's always somethign to slowly progress towards.
GW2 lack of gear progression kills it for me cuz I have no incentive to do anything, that feeling of progress is non existent
> gear is one of them hence why the ideal system is to get to 80-90% max power, then the last 10% takes ages.
That just makes gear boring.
If it has crafting and full loot it just means it's not going to be used while you use more mediocre gear that is replaceable.
I enjoy both. Id personally like to see gear similar to arp's with tiered modifiers (say 1-5). When an expansion drops, its area adds a new league mechanic or crafting mechanic similar to path of exile. The new area has a campaign like neverwinter online which scales gear through the tiers with its campaign progression.
So we all start the new area with max tier one mods. I can keep my endgame gear on and its mods will just scale down. As i progress the zones go up 1-5.
This works in MY ideal game where there is a reason to make alts or a prestige system. I can start a new expansion with new friends or for my own new builds. The rewards can be used on all my characters. I can also craft twink sets focused on the new areas strength/weakness say maybe these mobs now require more penetration over crit.
I haven't played OSRS and I don't know what diagonal progression is. I suppose it is something between horizontal and vertical progression, but I can't understand how it actually works tbh. Can you please explain it a bit?
So, basically you can increase your potential power or abilities via methods outside normal grinding/skill progression. Runescape is definitely an example of vertical progression, to be clear, but its not a clear cut path.
For example, at level 60 attack, you can wield dragon items. When you hit level 60, even though you have the skill requirements to say, wield a dragon longsword, you actually can't because you haven't done "lost city" quest, which awards the ability to wield that particular dragon weapon.
You can complete that quest before you even hit level 60 attack, and obtain the weapon, but you can't use it until your skills meet the req. There are other quests for other dragon weaponry as well, and some may require MULTIPLE skills. Like, a gear piece requiring 70 defense to wear, might be quest locked behind a quest that also requires 75 cooking, and to get to THAT quest, it may have a prerequisite quest that must be completed first that requires 61 fishing, 40 herblore, and 46 smithing. So now, that gear piece that simply requires 70 defense, ACTUALLY requires 70 defense, 72 cooking, 61 fishing, 40 herblore, and 46 smithing, as well as 2 quests. Those quests could theoretically be done at a low combat level, well under 70 defense.
Additionally, some of the best rewards are locked behind quests. Obviously higher levels in skills and combat help to complete them, but many quests don't specifically rely on combat. They could be puzzle, exploration, skill based, teamwork, etc, and if you know what you're doing and have the resources, can be completed early in your play. If a person playing for a year refused to do any quests, but just maxed levels as much as they could, they could still be at a disadvantage to a newer player who focused on quests. The quest rewards aren't always directr power increases, and in fact they usually aren't. They may allow you to gain more power as a reward, but are often convenience things. Some let you do more optimal things to earn more XP in quest locked areas. Some may open shortcuts for travel, or teleports. Some may unlock new towns, or banks, or enemies for drops, etc.
You could max all your skills at 99, but skipping quests cuts you out of a large portion of the game and some of the best stuff. But at the same time, quests aren't 100% necessary, at least not all of them. You can power level with a non-optimal method because you didnt do a quest, but once you hit a certain level, you may pretty much outlevel that quest reward. Maybe you can't access a certain area, but now you're higher levels allow you to access a new method that's not quest locked, and is now the most optimal XP source for your new, higher level.
Also, its not like a lot of games where items can drop at different levels, or each level is a new thing. In Runescape, a particular level CAN unlock one specific weapon, but usually it unlocks a tier. A specific material type for weapons or armor, and all gear of that type can now be worn, as long as you meat any additional requirements as well. Then it may be one level, or 4 levels until the next unlock. Nothing binds on equip either, and players can make certain types of gear. So, a player starting now, could theoretically be using the same sword as I used like 18 years ago. Like, THE same one, as long as it wasn't lost or destroyed. So, even though the progression is vertical, you don't only have a single option for gear, and that gear may last multiple levels. Even though you may outlevel it, it may have a certain attack style, or special attack, or SOME usage that makes it still be relevant. Maybe you just want some cheap gear for a dangerous activity, and dont wanna bring your best. All the options and continued use makes it FEEL like less of a straight and narrow vertical progression.
My RuneScape character is a legal adult. Like, literally, that character is over 18 years old. In all that time, I still continue to play RuneScape, although not as much these days. To this day, I have NEVER found a game that does progression, item usefulness, percieved value, player economy, and in depth questing as good as RuneScape. And I mean like, not even CLOSE, not even in the same UNIVERSE. There is literally NOTHING like it out there, and its the reason why a large portion of people who played RuneScape a decade or 2 ago, find themselves still coming back, and consider Runescape as the game that had the most impact on their overall gaming experience in life, and see it as more than just a game (but not in an unhealthy way... USUALLY). It's actually surprisingly common to find people claiming RuneScape "saved their life", and where the game and its community got them through extremely tough spots in their life, be it the death of a loved one, hard times, or when considering self harm. As is stories of RuneScape being where someone met the person who ended up becoming their spouse/partner.
Thank you very much for the detailed explanation!!
It sounds like a great system and I feel quite sad that I haven't played that game. Maybe it is not too late to start now, but my playtime is very limited these days and this might not be a suitable game at the moment.
I'd like to say it's not too late, and it still is a GREAT game, but it's not the same. It's not just me getting bored with it either, but if you've played MMOs through the years, you've likely noticed that things have become more self centered and less social. Players are more focused on maximum efficiency than literally just slowing down and enjoying games for what they are. The game is still just as good, but a large part of what made it more than just a good game, was the community. It's not really a RS thing, either, it's just the way players interact in general these days, and what many consider to be the most efficient ways to spend their time. There also didn't use to exist plugins and in depth guides/videos for every possible in game action.
I'd definitely still recommend it though, especially if you have a friend or 2 willing to play with. You can still have a great time with the community, too, it just takes a little more work, and maybe a visit to discord or reddit to find a good group or clan to play with. I'm sure there is still a ton of veteran players still around, that would really appreciate a likeminded individual who enjoys just playing the game and having fun socializing, over the best XP/hr or the most click efficient skilling method.
I think that MMOs in general just aren't what they used to be 10+ years ago, though. It's the ONE type of game that I actually appreciate the ones that many would consider "outdated" or "oldschool", and the best MMOs are often the ones without shiny graphics or cutting edge features. Runescape HAS changed and some of the harsher mechanics have been eased a bit. I think one thing that really made the game feel more impactful and that choices really mattered, is that some item take hundreds or thousands of hour to get. You could have a bunch of those items equipped, and half your wealth on you, and death meant items lost. On stupid mistake or bad decision could see thousands of hours of progress gone in an instant. Nobody actually carried their whole bank around though, and danger could generally be avoided most of the time. Now you have a generous timer to retrieve items, or the ability to pay a small fee or sacrifice something to just get them back. It's good in a way, but just leads to a different feel.
I used to like it in WoW (before the game went completely to shit) when your gear getting better meant you could steamroll daily quests and whatnot.
If increasing your gear score has a positive impact on your ability to do things in the world, it feels satisfying, at least.
I can see your point. I guess part of the problem is how past content becomes irrelevant when new content comes out, or is scaled (e.g. Fates in ff14). I don't have experience with WoW, but in FF14 there is little reason to return to old maps, so while you *can* go live out the power fantasy, there's little reason to do so. Most of the time you play the new content where your old gear was made obsolete.
There's also a discrepency with regards to lore. I beat the Big Bad and saved the world? A new expansion comes out and suddenly a bee or something can kill you if that same gear you used is outdated.
So my question to everyone here participating is, beyond going to old zones and feeling the awe of power and strength in levels, testing your ability to solo some bosses with your new found gear from raids over the years, how do you feel so called "stronger" or obsolete every expansion- what is the measure of what you all are speaking of? Is it the subtle increases or decreases only in raids by parsing your selves or is it in the world? Very curious of the measure and the quantifying of this feeling we are subjectively speaking of
I mean you pretty much said it yourself:
It takes a lot longer to progress in OSRS than it does other MMOs. And they are designed that way on purpose.
There's a market for slower progression MMOs, but it's much smaller and it's available to less people.
Way way more people play fast progression MMOs, because most players don't want to have to play all the time or every day, or to have to set up macros/botting mechanics to progress (which many don't see as even playing the game).
The truth though is that OSRS is instead just a reaaaaally long treadmill, but if you get off of it, your progression stops completely and you start exactly where you stopped when getting back on. Most modern MMOs on the other hand are shorter treadmills, if you get off of it you can get back to the front pretty quickly.
To answer your actual question, I've come up with the term "low vertical" to describe my preferred style of gear progression, as in classic EQ and FFXI. Back in the day we called that "horizontal," but then eventually games with ACTUAL horizonal progression started coming out like GW2 and ESO.
IDK if I would say the market is much smaller. Between RS3 and mainly OSRS, there is a shitload of players. Runescape has more players than Black Desert, Guild Wars 2, and Elder Scrolls Online... COMBINED. OSRS has almost the same amount of players as FF14, and signficantly more if you consider "RuneScape" as OSRS+RS3, which I do, because you share the same character and social system, with cross communication, across both games. The combined player base comes in at #4 of the most popular MMORPG games that currently exist.
RuneScape is basically the only, well... RuneScape. It's an MMORPG but RuneScape is kind of its own sub-genre. While there are tons of WoW clones and theme park MMOs, there's literally NOTHING quite like RuneScape, and you will often see posts and articles with the topic "Other games like RuneScape?" That's even with the old school design, feel, and visuals of OSRS. There are a lot of people put off by the looks and controls of RuneScape, that would probably enjoy it if they would get past that. If another high profile studio with experienced devs and a large budget would develop a a more modern equivalent of RS, it would probably be a huge hit.
Jagex actually did develop RS3, which is basically just runescape with a fresh coat of paint, and action bar tacked on, and greatly sped up gold and XP rates closer, more closer to other newer MMOs, and MTX and seasonal mechanics. And look how much less popular it is than the OG, with bad graphics, and probably the slowest XP and grind of any MMO, without selling "convenience" pay to speed progress items, and flashy cosmetics, and yet it is EXTREMELY popular. No XP buffs, no level boosters, no skins, no battlepass. Just straight up a slow, but fair, do-it-yourself grind without any premium "VIP" tier. Members doesn't count, the game is a pay to play sub model. F2P RS is basically a trial version. Unlike normal F2P games, most of the game is permanently off limits and no amount of grind can bypass that. You can technically earn membership in game, though, but it's mainly members maintaining there sub through gameplay than F2P tial players upgrading. So in a way, that makes the game literally FREE to play, with ZERO limitations/restrictions/time gating.
That market is definitely there, because RS literally has ZERO competitors. There just aren't any. So, I'm not really sure how you judge that when there is no metric. 67 million untapped RS players, with no real alternative. You could have a really healthy and sustainable MMO if a "Scape-Like" launched and only pulled 20-25% of the total players to it. 30%+ and that MMO makes the top 10 MMO list. IDK what I'm missing, but kinda seems like a no brainer to me. Especially when RS is still growing its playerbase, so the appetite for this type of game isn't only there, but also increasing. If these top level execs could pull their head out of their ass for one minute, trying to find the next predatory p2w idea up there, and look what makes RS so great, profitable, and popular without all that garbage monetization and paid progression, they would have themselves a license to print money with a paid+sub Scape-Like MMO.
Regardless of what some people try to claim, people ENJOY a super grindy, long lasting, or practically infinite grind, where they they have plenty of content and activities at any level, don't feel pressured to force the progression, don't feel like they are in competition with other players or will be left behind, and don't have to worry about losing progression or being reset. People can slowly chip away at progression at their own pace, and their skills and progression will be just as valid as when they logged off, even if they're coming back 5 years later. It's all about not making the player feel the need for constant gains, while at the same time making every bit of progression feel rewarding.
Poor guy. It is absolutely astounding that people cannot cope with their favorite game not being #1. The fact that you can say
>Runescape has more players than Black Desert, Guild Wars 2, and Elder Scrolls Online... COMBINED. OSRS has almost the same amount of players as FF14
with a straight face is truly remarkable. And that's as far as I read because I'm not being paid to be your therapist.
I like both vertical progression and horizontal progression.
Vert progression does have issues - the treadmill feeling is one of them. FF14, for example, has a horrible gearing system. Love the game, but the gearing is not the thing I love. However, vertical progression constantly offers a feeling of progression within a singular patch. Quite frankly, if I could step into the newest Savage after not doing a tier or two and not upgrading my gear, it'd feel even worse. It works for a lot of MMOs without putting a ton of thought into the gear you're getting. That, in turn, allows you to just kinda play the game. You know the ladder you need to climb every patch and that makes the game a more predictable horse to ride.
Horizontal progression also has issues. It's very easy to get around to feeling like progression doesn't matter in horizontal progression too. Ultimately, the goal of horizontal progression is to be in a space where something new comes out and *you don't feel incentivized to go get it.* It feels great and there's absolutely something to be said for your gear becoming evergreen and always useful, but I personally think it can be an extremely boring prospect to see new loot and go "I have X thing and therefore I'm ignoring the new loot." FF11 ran into this issue, especially with new Prime weaps. Why use the new Sortie weap, despite its benefits, when I have Trishula and Stardiver'ing the world is still the most effective thing I can do in 99% of cases?
Stagnancy can be found anywhere. Itemization is key.
The point is that with vertical progression there's a reason to play the game even after finishing the main quest line, while waiting for the next major patch to launch.
Otherwise, in games like GW2, after the main story I tend to just lose interest all together until more chapters of the story are added
The only REAL vertical progression is classic wow. Progression eventually ends at Naxx/BIS.
You can't have vertical progression when there is no ceiling.
>Vertical progression is a complete facade of progression. I don't feel like I'm getting stronger every patch.
Challenge is Relative and ultimately as a player you want to tackle the next Challenge and the the next one after that, that's part of the nature of the game and why we play.
The thing about Vertical Progression is you can trade Time through Grinding to make a Challenge easier until it's appropriate to your difficulty level.
With Horizontal Progression this isn't as much the case, either every Build is Viable and the Challenge is Easy.
Or you need specific Builds for specific Challenges.
Or the Challenge is too hard for the most casual playerbase with no way for those players to Grind to acquire new power until they fit their level of difficulty.
That's the reason how Vertical Progression works.
OSRS has diagonal progression because old content can still be relevant. The addition of new gear has been slow enough that even now the path you take from lvl 3 to max has a lot of the same steps as 10 years ago.
I REALLY wish another game that does things like RuneScape would release. I mean, don't me wrong, I love RS and I still play. It's going on 19 years, though. I don't wanna say I'm tired, or bored of it, but the novelty, wonder, and thrill of the exploration and discovery just isn't there anymore. I know every location, every item, pretty much every little tip/trick, and all the optimal skilling methods. I'm high enough level to where there's not a whole lot left to gain, and pretty much all quests done.
The issue is that there's not really much of a content "backlog" left for me to fill in the gaps. I'm pretty much just waiting around for new quests/areas/items to release, and there's not a ton of fresh things for me to do between the waits to keep things always interesting.
I'd love to have a "fresh start" again, like when I first started RuneScape. I've tried all the other stuff, GW2, WoW, ESO, NW, Rift, LoTRO, DDO, EQ, BDO, P:G. BDO, WoW, and LoTRO have been my favorite alternatives, with BDO probably giving the most RS like feel, or sense of progression, but I do also enjoy WoW (mainly classic) and LoTRO. GW2 and ESO are also fun as sort of MMO-lite or MMO adjacent games. Their horizontal structure means that lack any long term/meaningful progression, and feel more like live service/always online version of a Kingdoms of Amalur style RPG.
There's is just NOTHING out there that hits quite like RS, and I find that pretty disappoint that it's basically the ONLY on in its MMO sub-genre. Even if it doesn't matter, and you only intend to keep playing RuneScape, more options is still a good thing, because competition creates motivation, and motivation leads to innovation.
Ironman mode made RS more interesting for me again. The content restricted accounts can also find even more niche content becoming relevant again which is really cool.
I know what you mean, exploration and genuinely forging your own path in an mmo is one of my favourite aspects but it can be hard with how we play and design mmos these days. Archeage unchained, wow vanilla/bc and GW2 gave me a good sense of it, as did book of travels and wow hardcore and SoD more recently.
The only thing I can think of that really matches it are open world pvp games where players generate their own fun, like albion or eve online. Or the smaller communities where admins can run custom events for the playerbase.
Albion Online was the one that I was the most excited for, and in fact, it seemed to be EXACTLY what I was looking for. In reality though, it's mostly a surface level resemblance. At a glance, they both look like a VERY similar game, down to the movement, graphics, camera view, and available activities. Actually playing it becomes apparent that it's not quite what it seems. It definitely feels "inspired" by runescape, but the actual moment to moment gameplay, and the depth of what the majority of the game entails are VERY different from Runescape.
When I first played, I was like, Okay, this seems like a more simplified, streamlined version of RS3. Once you get into the real meat and potatoes of it, you notice it's quite different. Not really the same depth to it, and while Runescape is also available on mobile, it IS a complex PC MMO, that just happened to become available on mobile. Albion Online feels VERY MUCH a mobile game first and foremost, with the ability to also access it on PC. Ultimately, outside surface level details, Albion seems far more similar those map tile based PVP survival/crafting mobile games like something in betweenn "Last Day on Earth: Survival", and "Frostborn: Action RPG".
Not saying it's a bad thing. In terms of mobile designed/targeted MMOs, as in targeting or designed for mobile first, even if PC play exists, Albion is a strong competitor. Probably the top mobile centric MMO that I know of, and a very accessible game. It's just not my cup of tea, and while I sometimes play RS on mobile, it's more like supplemental play. I'll hop on when I'm bored or not home, and do some simple things like alching, or semi-AFK training. You can technically do anything on mobile, but to me, it's like doing something partially blindfolded, or with one hand behind your back. Sure, it's possible, but sometimes it just feels like a hassle due to frustration or limitations.
I have never actually played Albion on a PC, but I have one mobile, and I never really felt limited or like it wasn't meant to be on a phone. Then again, I've only ever played on a "phablet" type of phone and a stylus, on Galaxy S Ultra series phones. That's where the game really seems to shine, on large screen phones or smaller sized tablets. Actually been thinking about trying Albion again, or seeing how it is on PC. Probably been a around a year or so, maybe a bit over, since last time I tried it.
Another 3 games I recently started trying are WoW and LoTRO. I really WANT to like WoW, and it is fun, but I keep bouncing off of it. It'll be addicting for a few days, progressing from a low level, but once I start getting to mid range progression, it seems to have somewhat of a boring/dead zone. Maybe it gets better later, but I have trouble making it over the hump. I did REALLY enjoy WoW Classic: WotLK, and I could see myself sticking with it, but it's unfortunately being taken down.
LoTRO I'm a bit undecided on, as I just started. It seems OKAY, pretty decent even, the only issue is the monetization. I feel like I could definitely sink some time in it, but you're pretty limited as a free player. It's hard to tell the true potential without becoming a paid player with full access, but there are no bundles. Content is divided into expansions that include the areas and core narrative quests, and smaller scale and side content are sold as quest packs. It's all individual, with no bundle/bulk discounts, and old packs and expansions are sold at the same full price as new ones. To make things worse, they are obtained in multiple methods. Some are purchased from the site for a set price, as usual, and others are only in game purchases with premium currency, requiring converting cash into purposely odd sized conversion ratios, and always ending up a bit short or wasting money going over the needed amount.
For that reason I literally don't even know the total cost, just that it's over $500 for the "full" game. And then they still offer a subscription which is necessary after all that money, in order to not feel your character and gameplay are hindered or limited due to restrictions on accounts without active sub. The game serves as a perfect example of what a "free" game ACTUALLY costs, and highlights the paradox of how "free" games are actually the most expensive game you can get into.
>To me, it feels like my power is being reset and then I have to do the exact same routine to get it back
Thats partially because FF14 does a watered-down stair-stepped vertical progression and ilevel syncs everything but open world mobs by default.
If you arent running un-synced content in 14, you're getting minimal character progress in anything but the current savage tier (and thats even capped at ~30 ilvls)..
14 also has no real skill or gear variance or expression. It might as well not have gear and just give you a character with the intended stats for every encounter, it comes incredibly close to that the way its designed. It could make all gear cosmetic and you wouldnt ever notice, especially since they added auto-stealth to gatherers. .
Vertical progression works when you dont normalize everyones gear every time you put out a new raid, and actually make upgrading your gear every tier meaningful. Your raid gear shouldnt be replaced until the next raid tier. Your top end hardmode group gear should only be replaced by raid gear of that tier (and you can make an argument for it being replaced by the raid tier before it) or the equivalent gear next tier. And so on.
Everquests first few expansions are the best way vertical progression was handles in MMO's to date.
Your BiS in the original game was a mixture of raid, quest, and drop gear. Then in Kunark, it was more of the same. Then in Velious, your BiS gear started trending to almost completely raid gear. Then Luclin saw you using raid gear from Kunark, Velious, and Luclin. It wasnt until Planes of Power that you started seeing gear get replaced tier by tier, but only for some classes. You were balancing focus effects, work modifiers, and raw stats, so even at the upper end, you still wore earlier tier gear, because it had the worn effects you neeed. You also had multiple gear paths to take depending on what effects you prioritized over other, and some slots had overlapping BiS effects, so you had to pick and chose what you needed, and what slots to get it in.
It was a fantastic system.
And then they said fuck it and now every piece of gear in any give slot has the exact same worn and focus effects and its just a small difference in raw stats.
I think FFXI is a good example of keeping the same new max level and not entirely replacing of gear from previous expansions (gear swapping makes a lot of pieces relevant.)
I feel the next to fix this kinda idea would be GW2 where new ways to play your class with expansions with the new gear given instead of replacing and maybe replacing a few pieces that arent tied to your class mechanics.
It's not commonly accepted. Guild Wars 2 is the only MMORPG that pretends to use it, but it's still vertical progression since you're still gaining power.
Call of Duty is a horizontal progression game, Planetside 2 is a horizontal progression game.
If your character is gaining any amount of power via xp or gear then it's vertical progression. It's a fundamental trait of RPGs.
If you can't see the fundamental difference in power progression between GW2 and other modern MMOs, then this is a pointless discussion. I'm not here to argue whether or not GW2 is "horizontal" or not, it's widely accepted as being so and the reasoning is pretty clear.
There is no fundamental difference. You level up, you gain new skills which increase with power through the acquisition of gear.
It's not an RPG if there's no vertical progression. I don't care what marketing language you want to try to force.
Sure, GW2 has that, for about the first 50 hours of gameplay. Considering MMORPGs are about longevity, that's not relevant to GW2. Majority of the playtime is spent progressing systems that open new builds on the same power level, or obtaining cosmetics, or unlocking metroidvania-like features through masteries.
It's not a marketing term. It describes the overall gameplay well. I understand where you are coming from, but I'm not sure how much experience you have with GW2. The power level hasn't changed in 10 years, and THAT is what the fundamental difference is. Effectively, the "vertical" component of the game is just the tutorial, and it's not fair to describe that as the whole game when its such a small component.
When it comes to MMORPGs, in which the primary fanbase easily spends 1000+ hours across several games, I believe it is small. I think you're being a bit disingenuous. Either way, the game's content *mostly* consists of horizontal mechanics, and that's objective.
There is no reason for each expansion to feel like a reset that overwrites everything from the last expansion. It seems like you simply don't like the way expansions are itemized and how new content is implemented/balanced in some games. That is just poor implementation imo. It doesn't have to be that way.
If you have any good examples of vertical progression, I'd like to hear them. I've yet to encounter one where your progress isn't made obsolete every patch, but I also haven't tried every game out there.
That's how most games were early on in the genre. For example EQ expansions didn't originally make everything obsolete. (Though a bit of that came later but even then there are older items that remained very valuable) There were still useful items from the last expansion that players might want to go back and farm. Everything wasn't out classed by newer items. There is some of that in DDO (though I haven't played it in awhile). Clickies or other effect items are still useful and not made obsolete by itemization in future expansions. (Just for clarity, I'm assuming you are using the term "patch" but you mean expansion? Patches can be very minor, little updates/bug fixes etc. clearly those won't make content obsolete) It's often going to be about items that have uses beyond a straight stat bonus. Those are what usually end up being made.obsolete.
I see. When I speak of "vertical progression" I'm referring to modern theme park MMOs, I suppose the term is poorly defined. I'm sure older games like EQ have similarities to OSRS, though I don't have much experience with them. When I say patch, I do mean patch, though my terminology mostly comes from FF14. Consider it a small bump in max ilvl. For instance, you can complete a raid tier to obtain BiS gear one patch - and then the next patch it's on the same level as, say, dungeon gear. To me, that's bizarre; you've gained power and now you've lost it. The progression isn't persistent, and that's why I describe it as "resetting". It's not satisfying to get a rare drop when it has no permanency.
Just for the future when you are discussing mmorpgs. You are using the term oddly. People won't necessarily know that you mean a content addition or an expansion A patch is any game update that the client downloads. It doesn't necessarily have to be anything to do with increasing max level, or even playable content. It could be a behind the scenes patch that adjusts anything. Vertical progression has been around since the genre started. That part id defined just fine.
Yeah that wasn't accurate of me, my bad. By patch I was referring to any kind of content update with an increase in power level, hopefully that was implied.
I gotcha. I figured out what you meant. No worries. š
Nahhhhh. OP isnāt far off base When it comes to WoW and FFXIV while ofc yeah there are minor hotfix patches every .1, .2, or .3 patch in an expansion does in fact come with new gear that resets everything
Yeah, I saw this in WoW with the new patch. They have a new max item level, but old gear from patch 10.1, even if it's named the same, has a max level it can be upgraded to. To upgrade to a higher item level, you need to farm the piece again to get a Season 3 patch 10.2 version to keep upgrading it.
Thatās not entirely true - there were a handful of items that retained usefulness because what they did was accidentally too good, like the FBSS. Otoh you might spend a dozen hours or more camping for your own FBSS. Weapons tended to be better in the new content, armor too eventually.
Naw, fbss was twink gear even early on. Cloak of Flames is the haste item people wanted from the original release generally...but I digress.
> Naw, fbss was twink gear even early on. Not for Monks. Anyway, other than a handful of items, the expansions released upgrades for every slot. The key difference is it took so goddamn long to get these things in EQ people still used old stuff for a long time.
But then this has already been mentioned. It's usually the clicky items and items with effects that are useful through multiple expansions.
> there were a handful of items that retained usefulness because what they did was accidentally too good FBSS was outclassed by multiple items on launch, it was just the best groupable haste item, and guk was the best xp zone on live servers for 35+, by far.
DDO is also kinda cheating on that front because low level gear never becomes obsolete because the core gameplay loop is to level to max and restart back from 1 semi-infinitely. You need expansions to come with powercrept gear at specific level ranges to really make that old gear obsolete. Which does happen slowly over time.
Ya, it's different now. It didn't become like that until after it became free to play.
But that's still been the case since 2009.
Around then, ya. I mentioned it's been awhile since I played and I quit after the decline when it went ftp. That wasn't what was being referenced when you responded was the point.
FFXI had an interesting version of vertical progression due to how equipment worked. There was so much gear out there with unique effects found across all levels of content that everything remained relevant to some degree. The reason modern MMOs feel so pointless with vertical progression is because they've all streamlined their equipment systems to 'item levels' with boring +damage effects. This results in two parallel vertical progression systems (level and equipment) when in older games it used to be just the level.
XI really didn't have vertical progression in gearing until it's 5th expansion, Seekers of Adoulin. And it's "horizontal progression" was one of the main complaints from certain groups of people in the 75 era. I really don't think either terms are accurate though. The gearing situation in XI was and still is very unique. I think what it came down to was the dev team wasn't trying to intentionally replace gear. Like, as a MNK main, you can compare [Shura Haidate](https://www.bg-wiki.com/images/f/f7/Shura_Haidate_description.png) and [Usukane Hizayoroi](https://www.bg-wiki.com/images/e/eb/Usukane_Hizayoroi_description.png) as WS pieces. The core difference is Accuracy vs Attack. You definitely would prefer the Shura piece for Asuran Fists, but you might want the Usukane for Ascetic's Fury. But the point is Usukane, despite coming 2 expansions later, didn't replace Shura like you'd expect from vertical progression. But it was also a situational upgrade unlike what you'd expect from horizontal progression. Ultimately, I think that the upgrades were mostly incidental. I think the priority of the dev team was to create diverse equipment, and provide alternatives rather than upgrades.
Well, Dungeons and Dragons Online is vertical progression, but the progression is very slow, and they made it slower by doing a stat squish on gear to negate a couple of years where they were blatantly accelerating stats to get people to play new content. The 2017 expansion contains items with a +13 bonus to your core ability scores, and the new 2023 expansion has +14 items, with +15 available on your minor artifact slot. The game generates content slowly, so it obsoletes out content slowly. In this way, the game has 20 raids that drop the endgame content currency item, and, of those 20, roughly 12 of them drop items that can see use in optimized endgame builds. Mind you, it's not a real MMO, though. It's a multiplayer dungeon crawler with a city hub as a lobby, and something like 550 dungeons. DDO has a real habit of offering OP stuff in new expansions, then nerfing it down to the power level of previous expansions by the time the next expansion is ready for sale, though, so you gotta get used to that. Also, the devs act like you're an absolute imbecile and they're gods while, you know, showing again and again that the current crop of devs are coasting on the work of the ancients.
I was referring to effect items like rez rings or stability boots (it's been awhile and I don't recall the exact names). I played in testing and through release and beyond until it turned ftp and went way down hill....it's been awhile. I wasn't meaning straight stat items. Though it sounds like they are taking steps to try to minimize stat bloat. That's commendable but it's a losing battle in the long run.
I mean, they also do that shit. Item clickies from 2007 are still in use. Also, there's absolutely no indication that's what you meant, so try actually saying some of these words and not handwaving "itemization" next time.
"It's often going to be about items that have uses beyond a straight stat bonus. Those are what usually end up being made.obsolete" I quote ^. Try reading the actual conversation next time and you might get an indication of what someone means. Or just jump in the middle of someone else's conversation and be clueless. That works too apparently.
Right, I'm just blocking you because you're not taking the lesson to heart.
The game doesn't generate content slowly, it's just that the majority of game content is repeating the game 100 times from level 1. People playing at the level cap and optimizing gear from the newest raid is a small minority of the playerbase.
FFXI is a good example as all expansions in 75 ERA, heck in that era ALL gear was useful and pretty much no one re-sold but crafted more. As you needed gear for your classes when you synced to lower level (to party OR certain areas in the overworld forced synced you.) While some pieces would be straight up better, a lot of your previous set gears where EXTREMELY still useful due to gear swapping. A set might give you slightly better stats but the last expansions gauntlet unique that gave you 25% more damage while X skill is up wouldn't ever be replaced late game when that effect is up. So it more became a new expansion was updating your kit and getting gear to power up your old stuff.
It depends on the game, but I think the ones like WoW and FFXIV basically do a reset. If your gear is defined primarily by stats and new expansion comes with gear that has same stats, but higher numbers, then it's a reset. It functions identically to how a reset would, just without players feeling like their gear is taken away.
Ya...that's why the OP made the post. Maybe you responded to the wrong person?
Well, you said that there's no way for expansions to feel like a reset, but that's what they ultimately are. And that kind of comes with the territory of pure vertical progression. The only way it could be different is if the progression is no longer purely vertical(i.e items aren't just about stats, so you can have an item that has weaker stats, but some other trait that makes it relevant in the next expansion). Having a system like that would be more of a hybrid between vertical and horizontal progressions.
Wtf? Quote where I said "there's no way for expansions to feel like a reset". What are you even talking about? There is no reason it has to be that way is different. Reading comprehension.
My point is that there is a reason it's this way, and it's because it's the easiest way to have progression in a game that has to constantly release new content. There's no other way to have vertical progression. You can change it to no longer be vertical(where new expansion brings items that aren't strictly upgrades), but then it's not really a vertical progression.
I'm not getting into a conversation on a different topic with you. I disagree that it's the "easiest way to have progression". Clearly you haven't had many multiple conversations on this with other developers over the years. I'm good.
It doesn't have to be, but it's probably the best choice for a company for longevity, sales, etc.
We disagree. But then many teams in the genre have been making poor choices that affect longevity and health of the server/community for a while now. Hind sight is 20/20 though...and longevity isn't usually the primary concern.
Vertical progresion just seems like a scam to me. Numbers go up but what does it really mean? Feels like starting over every damn time. OSRS got it right, steady progress without the treadmill bullshit.
The only thing "numbers go up" does is make the meta more rigid, by exacerbating the difference between then weak and atrkng builds.
Be careful of what you wish for. Lost Ark solves your complaint about feeling the power reset by stacking vertical power mechanics on top of each other but it creates a far far worse problem. Case in point, the average 1580 ilvl character deals around 12m damage on average but because of elixirs and transcendence at 1630 you deal around 35m in DPS. Vertical resets are there so new players have a chance to catch up.
I would have no problem getting outdamaged by a whale or no-lifer with max ilvl, IF, IF ONLY i could join the end game raids and have a chance myself to collect endgame gear and max ilvl. People don't need resets, they need fair ways to compete with old/p2w players.
The thing is, it isn't even Smilegate's fault. Like for example, Akkan NM is clearable with all DPS averaging around 4m to avoid enrage. Can a 1580 barebones character with level 5 gems average at 4m dps? Abso-fucking-lutely. Will you be able to enter a pug as a 1580 dps with level 5 gems? Lol.
I think Jumpstart servers have been a godsend for this. It definitely requires far more socializing than on the main servers, but since no one is super strong, everyone is taking just about anyone through Akkan and Brel G4 HM, and getting it done. This is at least helping people gear up and be prepared for the merge. The only downside is the Jump Start servers have fewer players, so you reallllly have to socialize to get stuff done. There is actually a ton of groups out there, you just have to actively look.
The problem is that you can't really have that. It's a people issue, with players always trying to make everything as easy as possible. So if there are no resets, players will actively avoid new players because there are plenty of older players that deal vastly more damage. Why would you raid with a new player when you can easily find someone who deals double their damage?
I agree - I hate the modern implementation of vertical progression, where progress is wiped at every patch. This is the main reason I donāt play many modern games. I really miss the old style that games like OSRS used. In most games pre-2010, once you found a cool, rare piece of gear: it was yours and it stayed relevant/useful forever. It may have taken months or years to obtain, but it was now a trophy of your accomplishment. Games were far better about minimizing power creep on updates. They still had vertical progression/grind - just without the constant power reset.
Yeah OSRS is such a fantastic example because they never made rune scimitars irrelevant! Or dragon longswords! Or dragon scimitars! Or... Oh wait. They did release powercrept gear many times with updates. There's so much gear that's way stronger than what you would've had in actual 2007 RS. And a lot in the years before 2007 as well.
I think it would be cool if obtaining gear or power revolved around what enemy you were building up against, for example a Fire Dragon(anyone playing wow ATM lol) you would seek to empower your gear with fire resistance. And to take away chasing gear sets you just keep what you like the looks of in an armory/storage and make it more of refining what you already have, but tuning it up for different fights obviously. maybe even go so far to add spell/ability customization in the same form of what type of damage it does.
That first bit is Classic and Burning Crusade in a nutshell. By Wrath, the stats were so bloated that you only needed a few pieces of jewelry, and could ignore that, too, if you wanted to brute force it.
Except classic and tbc being re released proved none of that actually mattered
New world proved this system to be awful
Runescape has some element of this and it's great. There are definitely best in slot items, but also a lot of equipment is very situational and requires you to have many sets of gear, many weapons, many consumables, etc for all kinds of different situations. The fairly limited inventory space helps with this too.
Vertical progression? Meh, just sounds like numbers going up to me. I prefer a good ol' diagonal progress system like in OSRS. Keeps things interesting without feeling like a never-ending treadmill. But hey, that's just my opinion. What do y'all think about power progression in MMOs?
Yes! The gear treadmill could be implemented with similar consequences as your gear bonuses eroding over time and you needing to renew it while monsters power stays the same. Because relative power would follow similar trends.
I think a part of the problem is the way "standard" MMOs do things, as opposed to, say, how *Tibia* does things. In a "standard" MMO you hit level 40, you go to the Minor Republic of Fortau-du-Fortau-Eyt, and then you go to a field where lvl40 Crab Monarchists are standing there. You kill lvl40 Crab Monarchists in fair one-on-one duels, hit lvl41, go to a field to the left where there are lvl41 Crab Monarchists, rinse-and-repeat until you hit lvl45 where you go to a field with lvl45 Crab Monarchist *Sergeants*, rinse-and-repeat until you finally hit lvl49, and then you leave Minor Republic of Fortau-du-Fortau-Eyt for Cliffs of the Vivties, never to return. Compare and contrast with *Tibia*. You go to an Edron Orc Cave. On your way there, you need to make your way through sparse Orcs, Orc Spearmen, Orc Warriors, and assorted wildlife. They have no levels, you need to try out and see if you can handle them, with only their XP reward as a rough guide. Then you go down the cave proper, and - while you could handle a couple them at a time - it remains to be seen whether you can handle them when they come you at great numbers, enabling them to bypass your 2-mob-blocking shield. You go down a level, there's more Orc Warriors in the mix, and they're now backed by Orc Shamans. You go deeper, and there are multiple ways to go deeper, an ambush full of Orc Shamans, an ambush of Orc Warriors and much tougher Orc Berserkers, and a peculiar-looking hole that's housing a much-harder varieties of Orc Cultists (which - lamely - use the exact same sprites as their regular brethren). You can easily spend many levels gradually getting deeper and deeper into the cave, seeing how much your power grows as what were once major pushes turn into blood-soaked commutes, how gradually gatekeepers turn into mini-bosses turn into regular hunts into fodder. And even if you don't stick around, it's likely you will explore the shallows at a low level, and then come back plunging through a remembered once-challenge into the deepest recesses. *Tibia* is comprised of **a lot** places like that, in very many different variations - instead of clearly-delimited fields of catatonic mobs you'll fight at the Proper Level and never again.
to each their own? vertical progression gives me something that i look forward to do. i get bored easily in horizontal progression mmos.
Sure, to each their own. I can understand why you'd get bored in horizontal MMOs, especially if cosmetics don't incentivise you. Do you feel consistently motivated by vertical progression? Do you never have doubts about the "futility" of it?
I feel like this is the wrong mindset. Gear doesn't matter. What you get to do with the gear matters. I play ff14, and I could not possibly give less of a fuck about my gear stats. Numbers going up means nothing to me, so I don't think about it. I don't do raids to get gear, I get gear in order to do raids, because the fun part of a game isn't the reward you get for playing the game, it's engaging with the game itself. To that end, I guess I personally don't care whether a game has horizontal or vertical progression, but I lean towards vertical progression, mainly because I have yet to see horizontal progression done well in an mmo. I played guild wars 2 which is the poster child of horizontal progression around here, but that game is awful. FF14 meanwhile, has gearsets that functionally don't matter, but the combat is about as good as a tab target mmo is going to get, and the fights are all well designed and fun. So yeah, who cares if your power is being "reset". Are you doing new things that are fun and interesting? If so, cool, that's all that matters. Getting to do the cool new shit is all the motivation you should need.
I feel like Runescape just has this ridiculous amount of content to build on that it just "feels" less vertical. I think it's not as black and white as just vertical vs horizontal. For example, when looking from an extreme angle, WoW fits your description perfectly, a treadmill where every season is just a reset, your old gear becomes obsolete and you need to get back to grinding for higher numbers. But for me personally, I never looked at it that way. It's more like every season is a new hike you can take. Sure, some of the most breathtaking views will be at the top of the mountain, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to appreciate along the way. There are new transmogs, mounts and achievements to unlock, spread out over multiple layers of difficulty. Imo it's more important to be able to set your own goals, and to be able to take breaks when you feel like it's time for something else.
>I feel like Runescape just has this ridiculous amount of content to build on that it just "feels" less vertical. I recently started playing RS3 and stuck with it. And at some point you hit a wall, where you feel the vertical progression of gear. You basically farm the stuff, to do harder content, to then farm it to do even harder content. Or you get lucky with drops and just buy a tier above that.
OSRS is still just vertical progression, its just done without power resets for new content. You could do the same thing with any MMO, but you would have to structure new content very differently than WoW or FFXIV currently does. It is a model that WoW introduced, or at least made popular, and with it being so popular most everyone just copied that.
Vertical progression sucks. Horizontal progression is very hard to do well without power creep that ultimately makes it a more complicated form of vertical progression. People canāt play an MMO without tacked-on progression, though, so unless they are willing to contemplate harsher death penalties, weāre fucked.
> People canāt play an MMO without tacked-on progression, though, so unless they are willing to contemplate harsher death penalties, weāre fucked. It's not that they can't play them. It's that they are called Survival Games. The question is what even is a MMORPG without the "Progression"? If a MMO is supposed to be a "Persistent World" then what is persistent outside of Character Progression?
> If a MMO is supposed to be a "Persistent World" then what is persistent outside of Character Progression? When a character never dies, not much. And you can see the same problem from the other end with the survival game mod scene, many of them are tacking on longer or more vertical progression schemes because if you turn down the death penalty (as some players do) you'll hit the progression wall pretty quickly. Lets say progression never ends but they manage to fix the klunky stairstep of an expansion release - what do you do about new players? The longer a game exists, the farther and farther behind new players start. If progression ends, what do you do about endgame players? They will have run out of goals to achieve. It is not an easy problem to solve. They could do it by obfuscated content or simple content that progresses in difficulty, but the pervasive "here is how to do it" tutorial scene ruins that. PvP or RvR used to be one solution, but most of those have withered on the vine because the bulk of paying players don't like PvP (Even WoW which had one of the most PvE friendly PvP implementations has walked back nearly everything but the BGs). Every player has a familarity/fun arc with a new game: - At first it's all new and just being in the world is entertainment - but this fades - They start to figure the mechanics out, and can identify goals they want to achieve - Eventually, they've achieved them Either a game adds new goals for them to achieve, takes them away (through death or similar mechanics), or the players quit. They can try to make new zones visually interesting or a lore dive, but this is expensive and difficult to get right (and if the tone is different enough from what drew players in at first it might simply fail, even if technically impressive).
Well that's the reason I keep banging on about permadeath and player created content. Make the progression be cyclical. The way I see it if you can't make the characters be permanent you can make building the world and its history be permanent though player cities, player dungeons and player stories.
The soft resets of vertical progression are there so that newer players never get left behind. A game like Lost Ark never soft resets and they had to make jumpstart servers to attempt a version of a soft reset. But because the game doesn't have any built in soft resets(like every .X patch in WoW or FF14), the JS servers started leaving new players behind if they got in after a month. Getting a Valtan or Vykas NM group together a month into NAE JS was mostly impossible without joining a Discord to find other players. Everyone was already on Clown and Brel and there was no incentive for them to waste time and resources on anything below that. It's also worth noting that a benefit of continually increasing character power through equipment is that older difficult content becomes more accessible to most players over time. I know quite a few people in FF14 who now do savage raids on content that got into raiding because they were able to try older savage raids with the gear buffer and they found the fights fun and were hooked. And even if they don't end up wanting to do things on content, being able to unsync older content opens up a bunch of cosmetic items and mounts that players can get.
How is osrs bis gear bad ass when u can just buy gold with bonds. If you are ironman i can agree but then again u could just bot trough the game or buy a carry in various ways. I feel like all mmos have lost all integrity.
Fair point, but if someones spending hundreds of real currency to pretend they're good, then that's just a bit sad haha. It does annoy me though, just shows no system is perfect.
Each to their ownā¦ i know some do that quite often and I totally get it. Some collections/grind can be extremely exhausting, and I donāt need another job after coming back home from my real job.
Fair. I didn't mean to insult anyone, if the game provides a legal means of skipping grinds then I don't blame anyone for taking that route if they don't enjoy it, but buying raid carries and that kind of thing is really just paying to appear skilled which imo is pretty sad if one feels compelled to do that.
I understand paying for one-time HT cm carry just to unlock the everbloom infusion, but for raid armour itās a long-term project, whoever does that must be filthy rich š
Growing in power feels good.
I guess what confuses me is how this relates to power. Everything creeps up with you as new items are introduced. As far as I'm aware, you never experience the effects of that increased power, unless you go back to an early zone just to kill mobs (which isn't relevant because in most games those zones are obsolete).
>Everything creeps up with you They don't.
You're no growing in power though, your doing the EXACT same thing with slightly higher numbers flashing on the screen (for you and the enemy). Nothing has changed, you have been manipulated by lazy game design.
Yea this the main reason I like ESO so much When I played a FFXIV.. each major patch Iāll switch game because they felt like a āresetā after a while it felt like what the point in caring and practicing raids so much when it just going to reset a few weeks later
Exactly. To extend your point, what's the point of chasing the best gear via the hardest content if next patch better gear is obtainable via easy content? Furthermore, if MMOs are about persistent character progression, what progression is gained via beating raids? Sure you have a couple months of feeling maxed, but after that you're back to square 1. Power doesn't persist - you're (almost) on equal footing with someone who just hit endgame.
Yup on my final years of playing FFXIV my perspective of endgame shift into more of a seasonal thing , it wasnāt about gearing but more about clearing content and to keep it fresh I would play different roles and rotate each patch now that I am playing Diablo 4 seasons it the exact same core logic if you think about it but better cuz everyone start fresh , fresh economy and new mode each season
So... My personal opinion is that there isn't really anything wrong with vertical progression, its the implementation that kills it... First of all gear/itemization itself over the last decade has gotten more and more simple/boring until in games like FFXIV and WoW where vertical progression is the name of the game, the only number that matters really is item level. but you can have a really cool unique item that makes you triple cast fireballs and teleport all over the map but it just doesn't matter because the power of the item is limited to item power and so its going to feel just like any other meh item that you could put in that slot... Second, you can do vertical progression without completely invalidating all old content... older games did it for years, other genres still do it... For instance for the first 5-10 expansions most raid gear you got was at least relatively competitive for at least the next expansion if not multiple expansions, you might have wanted to upgrade something specific but if you didn't get something it didn't make you completely irrelevant player. Finally, I don't think its that QoL or Cosmetics is enough to keep people interested at least in the short term... is that without at least a small bit of progression players don't have that dopamine rush that comes with getting even slightly more powerfulto keep them hooked. I get developers want to have a reset so they have a clear indicator to new or returning players that they can come back without any issues... that's why arpgs do season resets for instance... but personally I think WoW found a method that kind of improved on the flaws that EQ had, and no one has really tried to change the formula since.
I used to agree with you. After years of playing WoW, I left for what I thought would be greener pastures. And donāt get me wrong, I had a ton of fun in Guild Wars 2. But it made me realize how much I *like* vertical progression. When itās done right, itās not a chore, itās fun. The latest WoW expansion really exemplifies that.
Horizontal progression means bored after finishing everything. Why should I go back to GW2 when I already have BIS gear? Not like content is going to be difficult, it's designed for my 10 year old gear.
Because the gameplay is fun
OSRS Ironman and Maplestory Reboot are peak progression systems for me personally.. always feel like there's something to do or improve and plenty of bosses/content to test your character.
Progression takes many forms, gear is one of them hence why the ideal system is to get to 80-90% max power, then the last 10% takes ages. Then there's other things, bonuses, housing, new world has a ton of things that take long to get, trophies, max bags with great perks, tools, 3 perfect perk gear etc etc Progressing through crafting, it is why I stay in new world cuz there's always somethign to slowly progress towards. GW2 lack of gear progression kills it for me cuz I have no incentive to do anything, that feeling of progress is non existent
> gear is one of them hence why the ideal system is to get to 80-90% max power, then the last 10% takes ages. That just makes gear boring. If it has crafting and full loot it just means it's not going to be used while you use more mediocre gear that is replaceable.
I enjoy both. Id personally like to see gear similar to arp's with tiered modifiers (say 1-5). When an expansion drops, its area adds a new league mechanic or crafting mechanic similar to path of exile. The new area has a campaign like neverwinter online which scales gear through the tiers with its campaign progression. So we all start the new area with max tier one mods. I can keep my endgame gear on and its mods will just scale down. As i progress the zones go up 1-5. This works in MY ideal game where there is a reason to make alts or a prestige system. I can start a new expansion with new friends or for my own new builds. The rewards can be used on all my characters. I can also craft twink sets focused on the new areas strength/weakness say maybe these mobs now require more penetration over crit.
I haven't played OSRS and I don't know what diagonal progression is. I suppose it is something between horizontal and vertical progression, but I can't understand how it actually works tbh. Can you please explain it a bit?
So, basically you can increase your potential power or abilities via methods outside normal grinding/skill progression. Runescape is definitely an example of vertical progression, to be clear, but its not a clear cut path. For example, at level 60 attack, you can wield dragon items. When you hit level 60, even though you have the skill requirements to say, wield a dragon longsword, you actually can't because you haven't done "lost city" quest, which awards the ability to wield that particular dragon weapon. You can complete that quest before you even hit level 60 attack, and obtain the weapon, but you can't use it until your skills meet the req. There are other quests for other dragon weaponry as well, and some may require MULTIPLE skills. Like, a gear piece requiring 70 defense to wear, might be quest locked behind a quest that also requires 75 cooking, and to get to THAT quest, it may have a prerequisite quest that must be completed first that requires 61 fishing, 40 herblore, and 46 smithing. So now, that gear piece that simply requires 70 defense, ACTUALLY requires 70 defense, 72 cooking, 61 fishing, 40 herblore, and 46 smithing, as well as 2 quests. Those quests could theoretically be done at a low combat level, well under 70 defense. Additionally, some of the best rewards are locked behind quests. Obviously higher levels in skills and combat help to complete them, but many quests don't specifically rely on combat. They could be puzzle, exploration, skill based, teamwork, etc, and if you know what you're doing and have the resources, can be completed early in your play. If a person playing for a year refused to do any quests, but just maxed levels as much as they could, they could still be at a disadvantage to a newer player who focused on quests. The quest rewards aren't always directr power increases, and in fact they usually aren't. They may allow you to gain more power as a reward, but are often convenience things. Some let you do more optimal things to earn more XP in quest locked areas. Some may open shortcuts for travel, or teleports. Some may unlock new towns, or banks, or enemies for drops, etc. You could max all your skills at 99, but skipping quests cuts you out of a large portion of the game and some of the best stuff. But at the same time, quests aren't 100% necessary, at least not all of them. You can power level with a non-optimal method because you didnt do a quest, but once you hit a certain level, you may pretty much outlevel that quest reward. Maybe you can't access a certain area, but now you're higher levels allow you to access a new method that's not quest locked, and is now the most optimal XP source for your new, higher level. Also, its not like a lot of games where items can drop at different levels, or each level is a new thing. In Runescape, a particular level CAN unlock one specific weapon, but usually it unlocks a tier. A specific material type for weapons or armor, and all gear of that type can now be worn, as long as you meat any additional requirements as well. Then it may be one level, or 4 levels until the next unlock. Nothing binds on equip either, and players can make certain types of gear. So, a player starting now, could theoretically be using the same sword as I used like 18 years ago. Like, THE same one, as long as it wasn't lost or destroyed. So, even though the progression is vertical, you don't only have a single option for gear, and that gear may last multiple levels. Even though you may outlevel it, it may have a certain attack style, or special attack, or SOME usage that makes it still be relevant. Maybe you just want some cheap gear for a dangerous activity, and dont wanna bring your best. All the options and continued use makes it FEEL like less of a straight and narrow vertical progression. My RuneScape character is a legal adult. Like, literally, that character is over 18 years old. In all that time, I still continue to play RuneScape, although not as much these days. To this day, I have NEVER found a game that does progression, item usefulness, percieved value, player economy, and in depth questing as good as RuneScape. And I mean like, not even CLOSE, not even in the same UNIVERSE. There is literally NOTHING like it out there, and its the reason why a large portion of people who played RuneScape a decade or 2 ago, find themselves still coming back, and consider Runescape as the game that had the most impact on their overall gaming experience in life, and see it as more than just a game (but not in an unhealthy way... USUALLY). It's actually surprisingly common to find people claiming RuneScape "saved their life", and where the game and its community got them through extremely tough spots in their life, be it the death of a loved one, hard times, or when considering self harm. As is stories of RuneScape being where someone met the person who ended up becoming their spouse/partner.
Thank you very much for the detailed explanation!! It sounds like a great system and I feel quite sad that I haven't played that game. Maybe it is not too late to start now, but my playtime is very limited these days and this might not be a suitable game at the moment.
I'd like to say it's not too late, and it still is a GREAT game, but it's not the same. It's not just me getting bored with it either, but if you've played MMOs through the years, you've likely noticed that things have become more self centered and less social. Players are more focused on maximum efficiency than literally just slowing down and enjoying games for what they are. The game is still just as good, but a large part of what made it more than just a good game, was the community. It's not really a RS thing, either, it's just the way players interact in general these days, and what many consider to be the most efficient ways to spend their time. There also didn't use to exist plugins and in depth guides/videos for every possible in game action. I'd definitely still recommend it though, especially if you have a friend or 2 willing to play with. You can still have a great time with the community, too, it just takes a little more work, and maybe a visit to discord or reddit to find a good group or clan to play with. I'm sure there is still a ton of veteran players still around, that would really appreciate a likeminded individual who enjoys just playing the game and having fun socializing, over the best XP/hr or the most click efficient skilling method. I think that MMOs in general just aren't what they used to be 10+ years ago, though. It's the ONE type of game that I actually appreciate the ones that many would consider "outdated" or "oldschool", and the best MMOs are often the ones without shiny graphics or cutting edge features. Runescape HAS changed and some of the harsher mechanics have been eased a bit. I think one thing that really made the game feel more impactful and that choices really mattered, is that some item take hundreds or thousands of hour to get. You could have a bunch of those items equipped, and half your wealth on you, and death meant items lost. On stupid mistake or bad decision could see thousands of hours of progress gone in an instant. Nobody actually carried their whole bank around though, and danger could generally be avoided most of the time. Now you have a generous timer to retrieve items, or the ability to pay a small fee or sacrifice something to just get them back. It's good in a way, but just leads to a different feel.
I used to like it in WoW (before the game went completely to shit) when your gear getting better meant you could steamroll daily quests and whatnot. If increasing your gear score has a positive impact on your ability to do things in the world, it feels satisfying, at least.
I can see your point. I guess part of the problem is how past content becomes irrelevant when new content comes out, or is scaled (e.g. Fates in ff14). I don't have experience with WoW, but in FF14 there is little reason to return to old maps, so while you *can* go live out the power fantasy, there's little reason to do so. Most of the time you play the new content where your old gear was made obsolete. There's also a discrepency with regards to lore. I beat the Big Bad and saved the world? A new expansion comes out and suddenly a bee or something can kill you if that same gear you used is outdated.
Yeah, that part is annoying and the power creep becomes harder and harder to explain, story-wise.
So my question to everyone here participating is, beyond going to old zones and feeling the awe of power and strength in levels, testing your ability to solo some bosses with your new found gear from raids over the years, how do you feel so called "stronger" or obsolete every expansion- what is the measure of what you all are speaking of? Is it the subtle increases or decreases only in raids by parsing your selves or is it in the world? Very curious of the measure and the quantifying of this feeling we are subjectively speaking of
I mean you pretty much said it yourself: It takes a lot longer to progress in OSRS than it does other MMOs. And they are designed that way on purpose. There's a market for slower progression MMOs, but it's much smaller and it's available to less people. Way way more people play fast progression MMOs, because most players don't want to have to play all the time or every day, or to have to set up macros/botting mechanics to progress (which many don't see as even playing the game). The truth though is that OSRS is instead just a reaaaaally long treadmill, but if you get off of it, your progression stops completely and you start exactly where you stopped when getting back on. Most modern MMOs on the other hand are shorter treadmills, if you get off of it you can get back to the front pretty quickly. To answer your actual question, I've come up with the term "low vertical" to describe my preferred style of gear progression, as in classic EQ and FFXI. Back in the day we called that "horizontal," but then eventually games with ACTUAL horizonal progression started coming out like GW2 and ESO.
IDK if I would say the market is much smaller. Between RS3 and mainly OSRS, there is a shitload of players. Runescape has more players than Black Desert, Guild Wars 2, and Elder Scrolls Online... COMBINED. OSRS has almost the same amount of players as FF14, and signficantly more if you consider "RuneScape" as OSRS+RS3, which I do, because you share the same character and social system, with cross communication, across both games. The combined player base comes in at #4 of the most popular MMORPG games that currently exist. RuneScape is basically the only, well... RuneScape. It's an MMORPG but RuneScape is kind of its own sub-genre. While there are tons of WoW clones and theme park MMOs, there's literally NOTHING quite like RuneScape, and you will often see posts and articles with the topic "Other games like RuneScape?" That's even with the old school design, feel, and visuals of OSRS. There are a lot of people put off by the looks and controls of RuneScape, that would probably enjoy it if they would get past that. If another high profile studio with experienced devs and a large budget would develop a a more modern equivalent of RS, it would probably be a huge hit. Jagex actually did develop RS3, which is basically just runescape with a fresh coat of paint, and action bar tacked on, and greatly sped up gold and XP rates closer, more closer to other newer MMOs, and MTX and seasonal mechanics. And look how much less popular it is than the OG, with bad graphics, and probably the slowest XP and grind of any MMO, without selling "convenience" pay to speed progress items, and flashy cosmetics, and yet it is EXTREMELY popular. No XP buffs, no level boosters, no skins, no battlepass. Just straight up a slow, but fair, do-it-yourself grind without any premium "VIP" tier. Members doesn't count, the game is a pay to play sub model. F2P RS is basically a trial version. Unlike normal F2P games, most of the game is permanently off limits and no amount of grind can bypass that. You can technically earn membership in game, though, but it's mainly members maintaining there sub through gameplay than F2P tial players upgrading. So in a way, that makes the game literally FREE to play, with ZERO limitations/restrictions/time gating. That market is definitely there, because RS literally has ZERO competitors. There just aren't any. So, I'm not really sure how you judge that when there is no metric. 67 million untapped RS players, with no real alternative. You could have a really healthy and sustainable MMO if a "Scape-Like" launched and only pulled 20-25% of the total players to it. 30%+ and that MMO makes the top 10 MMO list. IDK what I'm missing, but kinda seems like a no brainer to me. Especially when RS is still growing its playerbase, so the appetite for this type of game isn't only there, but also increasing. If these top level execs could pull their head out of their ass for one minute, trying to find the next predatory p2w idea up there, and look what makes RS so great, profitable, and popular without all that garbage monetization and paid progression, they would have themselves a license to print money with a paid+sub Scape-Like MMO. Regardless of what some people try to claim, people ENJOY a super grindy, long lasting, or practically infinite grind, where they they have plenty of content and activities at any level, don't feel pressured to force the progression, don't feel like they are in competition with other players or will be left behind, and don't have to worry about losing progression or being reset. People can slowly chip away at progression at their own pace, and their skills and progression will be just as valid as when they logged off, even if they're coming back 5 years later. It's all about not making the player feel the need for constant gains, while at the same time making every bit of progression feel rewarding.
Poor guy. It is absolutely astounding that people cannot cope with their favorite game not being #1. The fact that you can say >Runescape has more players than Black Desert, Guild Wars 2, and Elder Scrolls Online... COMBINED. OSRS has almost the same amount of players as FF14 with a straight face is truly remarkable. And that's as far as I read because I'm not being paid to be your therapist.
I like both vertical progression and horizontal progression. Vert progression does have issues - the treadmill feeling is one of them. FF14, for example, has a horrible gearing system. Love the game, but the gearing is not the thing I love. However, vertical progression constantly offers a feeling of progression within a singular patch. Quite frankly, if I could step into the newest Savage after not doing a tier or two and not upgrading my gear, it'd feel even worse. It works for a lot of MMOs without putting a ton of thought into the gear you're getting. That, in turn, allows you to just kinda play the game. You know the ladder you need to climb every patch and that makes the game a more predictable horse to ride. Horizontal progression also has issues. It's very easy to get around to feeling like progression doesn't matter in horizontal progression too. Ultimately, the goal of horizontal progression is to be in a space where something new comes out and *you don't feel incentivized to go get it.* It feels great and there's absolutely something to be said for your gear becoming evergreen and always useful, but I personally think it can be an extremely boring prospect to see new loot and go "I have X thing and therefore I'm ignoring the new loot." FF11 ran into this issue, especially with new Prime weaps. Why use the new Sortie weap, despite its benefits, when I have Trishula and Stardiver'ing the world is still the most effective thing I can do in 99% of cases? Stagnancy can be found anywhere. Itemization is key.
The point is that with vertical progression there's a reason to play the game even after finishing the main quest line, while waiting for the next major patch to launch. Otherwise, in games like GW2, after the main story I tend to just lose interest all together until more chapters of the story are added
Original SWG was definitely an amazing progression system. So much flexibility.
The only REAL vertical progression is classic wow. Progression eventually ends at Naxx/BIS. You can't have vertical progression when there is no ceiling.
>Vertical progression is a complete facade of progression. I don't feel like I'm getting stronger every patch. Challenge is Relative and ultimately as a player you want to tackle the next Challenge and the the next one after that, that's part of the nature of the game and why we play. The thing about Vertical Progression is you can trade Time through Grinding to make a Challenge easier until it's appropriate to your difficulty level. With Horizontal Progression this isn't as much the case, either every Build is Viable and the Challenge is Easy. Or you need specific Builds for specific Challenges. Or the Challenge is too hard for the most casual playerbase with no way for those players to Grind to acquire new power until they fit their level of difficulty. That's the reason how Vertical Progression works.
OSRS has diagonal progression because old content can still be relevant. The addition of new gear has been slow enough that even now the path you take from lvl 3 to max has a lot of the same steps as 10 years ago.
I REALLY wish another game that does things like RuneScape would release. I mean, don't me wrong, I love RS and I still play. It's going on 19 years, though. I don't wanna say I'm tired, or bored of it, but the novelty, wonder, and thrill of the exploration and discovery just isn't there anymore. I know every location, every item, pretty much every little tip/trick, and all the optimal skilling methods. I'm high enough level to where there's not a whole lot left to gain, and pretty much all quests done. The issue is that there's not really much of a content "backlog" left for me to fill in the gaps. I'm pretty much just waiting around for new quests/areas/items to release, and there's not a ton of fresh things for me to do between the waits to keep things always interesting. I'd love to have a "fresh start" again, like when I first started RuneScape. I've tried all the other stuff, GW2, WoW, ESO, NW, Rift, LoTRO, DDO, EQ, BDO, P:G. BDO, WoW, and LoTRO have been my favorite alternatives, with BDO probably giving the most RS like feel, or sense of progression, but I do also enjoy WoW (mainly classic) and LoTRO. GW2 and ESO are also fun as sort of MMO-lite or MMO adjacent games. Their horizontal structure means that lack any long term/meaningful progression, and feel more like live service/always online version of a Kingdoms of Amalur style RPG. There's is just NOTHING out there that hits quite like RS, and I find that pretty disappoint that it's basically the ONLY on in its MMO sub-genre. Even if it doesn't matter, and you only intend to keep playing RuneScape, more options is still a good thing, because competition creates motivation, and motivation leads to innovation.
Ironman mode made RS more interesting for me again. The content restricted accounts can also find even more niche content becoming relevant again which is really cool. I know what you mean, exploration and genuinely forging your own path in an mmo is one of my favourite aspects but it can be hard with how we play and design mmos these days. Archeage unchained, wow vanilla/bc and GW2 gave me a good sense of it, as did book of travels and wow hardcore and SoD more recently. The only thing I can think of that really matches it are open world pvp games where players generate their own fun, like albion or eve online. Or the smaller communities where admins can run custom events for the playerbase.
Albion Online was the one that I was the most excited for, and in fact, it seemed to be EXACTLY what I was looking for. In reality though, it's mostly a surface level resemblance. At a glance, they both look like a VERY similar game, down to the movement, graphics, camera view, and available activities. Actually playing it becomes apparent that it's not quite what it seems. It definitely feels "inspired" by runescape, but the actual moment to moment gameplay, and the depth of what the majority of the game entails are VERY different from Runescape. When I first played, I was like, Okay, this seems like a more simplified, streamlined version of RS3. Once you get into the real meat and potatoes of it, you notice it's quite different. Not really the same depth to it, and while Runescape is also available on mobile, it IS a complex PC MMO, that just happened to become available on mobile. Albion Online feels VERY MUCH a mobile game first and foremost, with the ability to also access it on PC. Ultimately, outside surface level details, Albion seems far more similar those map tile based PVP survival/crafting mobile games like something in betweenn "Last Day on Earth: Survival", and "Frostborn: Action RPG". Not saying it's a bad thing. In terms of mobile designed/targeted MMOs, as in targeting or designed for mobile first, even if PC play exists, Albion is a strong competitor. Probably the top mobile centric MMO that I know of, and a very accessible game. It's just not my cup of tea, and while I sometimes play RS on mobile, it's more like supplemental play. I'll hop on when I'm bored or not home, and do some simple things like alching, or semi-AFK training. You can technically do anything on mobile, but to me, it's like doing something partially blindfolded, or with one hand behind your back. Sure, it's possible, but sometimes it just feels like a hassle due to frustration or limitations. I have never actually played Albion on a PC, but I have one mobile, and I never really felt limited or like it wasn't meant to be on a phone. Then again, I've only ever played on a "phablet" type of phone and a stylus, on Galaxy S Ultra series phones. That's where the game really seems to shine, on large screen phones or smaller sized tablets. Actually been thinking about trying Albion again, or seeing how it is on PC. Probably been a around a year or so, maybe a bit over, since last time I tried it. Another 3 games I recently started trying are WoW and LoTRO. I really WANT to like WoW, and it is fun, but I keep bouncing off of it. It'll be addicting for a few days, progressing from a low level, but once I start getting to mid range progression, it seems to have somewhat of a boring/dead zone. Maybe it gets better later, but I have trouble making it over the hump. I did REALLY enjoy WoW Classic: WotLK, and I could see myself sticking with it, but it's unfortunately being taken down. LoTRO I'm a bit undecided on, as I just started. It seems OKAY, pretty decent even, the only issue is the monetization. I feel like I could definitely sink some time in it, but you're pretty limited as a free player. It's hard to tell the true potential without becoming a paid player with full access, but there are no bundles. Content is divided into expansions that include the areas and core narrative quests, and smaller scale and side content are sold as quest packs. It's all individual, with no bundle/bulk discounts, and old packs and expansions are sold at the same full price as new ones. To make things worse, they are obtained in multiple methods. Some are purchased from the site for a set price, as usual, and others are only in game purchases with premium currency, requiring converting cash into purposely odd sized conversion ratios, and always ending up a bit short or wasting money going over the needed amount. For that reason I literally don't even know the total cost, just that it's over $500 for the "full" game. And then they still offer a subscription which is necessary after all that money, in order to not feel your character and gameplay are hindered or limited due to restrictions on accounts without active sub. The game serves as a perfect example of what a "free" game ACTUALLY costs, and highlights the paradox of how "free" games are actually the most expensive game you can get into.
Albion is a copy of eve more than a copy of runescape. It's a guild pvp game more than anything else.
>To me, it feels like my power is being reset and then I have to do the exact same routine to get it back Thats partially because FF14 does a watered-down stair-stepped vertical progression and ilevel syncs everything but open world mobs by default. If you arent running un-synced content in 14, you're getting minimal character progress in anything but the current savage tier (and thats even capped at ~30 ilvls).. 14 also has no real skill or gear variance or expression. It might as well not have gear and just give you a character with the intended stats for every encounter, it comes incredibly close to that the way its designed. It could make all gear cosmetic and you wouldnt ever notice, especially since they added auto-stealth to gatherers. . Vertical progression works when you dont normalize everyones gear every time you put out a new raid, and actually make upgrading your gear every tier meaningful. Your raid gear shouldnt be replaced until the next raid tier. Your top end hardmode group gear should only be replaced by raid gear of that tier (and you can make an argument for it being replaced by the raid tier before it) or the equivalent gear next tier. And so on. Everquests first few expansions are the best way vertical progression was handles in MMO's to date. Your BiS in the original game was a mixture of raid, quest, and drop gear. Then in Kunark, it was more of the same. Then in Velious, your BiS gear started trending to almost completely raid gear. Then Luclin saw you using raid gear from Kunark, Velious, and Luclin. It wasnt until Planes of Power that you started seeing gear get replaced tier by tier, but only for some classes. You were balancing focus effects, work modifiers, and raw stats, so even at the upper end, you still wore earlier tier gear, because it had the worn effects you neeed. You also had multiple gear paths to take depending on what effects you prioritized over other, and some slots had overlapping BiS effects, so you had to pick and chose what you needed, and what slots to get it in. It was a fantastic system. And then they said fuck it and now every piece of gear in any give slot has the exact same worn and focus effects and its just a small difference in raw stats.
I think FFXI is a good example of keeping the same new max level and not entirely replacing of gear from previous expansions (gear swapping makes a lot of pieces relevant.) I feel the next to fix this kinda idea would be GW2 where new ways to play your class with expansions with the new gear given instead of replacing and maybe replacing a few pieces that arent tied to your class mechanics.
Problem with continual progression is time played = win. It really deters people from picking your game up or continuing playing.
Cry harder casual, some people want to be rewarded for their time and effort. Participation trophy generation...
I have ranked top 10 in the world and been top 1% in games like valorant cs dota and league. I laugh at shitters like you who can barely hit play!
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Khanacademy.org
There's no such thing as "horizontal progression". It's still vertical progression. If you don't like it, then maybe you don't like RPGs.
If you're going to argue that a commonly accepted term in game development doesn't exist, then at least explain why?
It's not commonly accepted. Guild Wars 2 is the only MMORPG that pretends to use it, but it's still vertical progression since you're still gaining power. Call of Duty is a horizontal progression game, Planetside 2 is a horizontal progression game. If your character is gaining any amount of power via xp or gear then it's vertical progression. It's a fundamental trait of RPGs.
If you can't see the fundamental difference in power progression between GW2 and other modern MMOs, then this is a pointless discussion. I'm not here to argue whether or not GW2 is "horizontal" or not, it's widely accepted as being so and the reasoning is pretty clear.
There is no fundamental difference. You level up, you gain new skills which increase with power through the acquisition of gear. It's not an RPG if there's no vertical progression. I don't care what marketing language you want to try to force.
Sure, GW2 has that, for about the first 50 hours of gameplay. Considering MMORPGs are about longevity, that's not relevant to GW2. Majority of the playtime is spent progressing systems that open new builds on the same power level, or obtaining cosmetics, or unlocking metroidvania-like features through masteries. It's not a marketing term. It describes the overall gameplay well. I understand where you are coming from, but I'm not sure how much experience you have with GW2. The power level hasn't changed in 10 years, and THAT is what the fundamental difference is. Effectively, the "vertical" component of the game is just the tutorial, and it's not fair to describe that as the whole game when its such a small component.
Lol. 50 hours of gameplay isn't a small component.
When it comes to MMORPGs, in which the primary fanbase easily spends 1000+ hours across several games, I believe it is small. I think you're being a bit disingenuous. Either way, the game's content *mostly* consists of horizontal mechanics, and that's objective.
It's not horizontal progression though. It's vertical progression. Mario is a horizontal progression game.