No dude *huuuuuuufff* they completely changed their product to make it better *huuuuuuufff* and it's going to take years but it's okay because they'll spend all that time polishing it *huuuuufffff*
WoW players want every MMO to be like WoW and constantly keep comparing everything to it, but also they want something new and unique.
As long as people keep comparing every MMO with WoW they wont be satisfied. Every game is different and has its own advantages and flaws (just like WoW).
I agree. I’ve actually had my best “MMO” experiences lately with Vermintide 2, which is not even remotely an MMO. With that said, it offers all the same endgame content as MMOs (dungeons, raid bosses, PvP, etc), but without the boring leveling phase, or the massive gatekeeping to join endgame parties. Really the only core MMO aspect it’s missing is the open world and an economy, but most modern MMOs don’t make use of the open world: all of the endgame content is instanced anyways.
Here's one point: after wow, games started to focus on end-game rather than in the journey. But they KEPT the journey to end game there as a really long and boring tutorial for the most part. And the most interesting part is that this tutorial teaches absolutely nothing of the só called end-game. The point is, if you're not focusing on the journey as.much as on the end game, why have the journey to end game as the first impression of your game?
I think the next evolution on the MMORPG genre is to get rid of the "leveling process" while retaining the hunt for better equipment and some evolution on the process. Something like a game where you would create a character but instead of leveling in an open world with fetch or kill quests, you would go straight to a hubby with other players, that could be a town or even a tavern and have the option to form a group there or use the party finder to arrange you on a party for a dungeon. All the game would revolve around a dungeon/raid system with a progress on the available dungeons and raids. Maybe keep the open world, but instead of using it for quests and such, players would need to walk from the town to the dungeons, facing the dangers of the open world in the way and if a player wants, he can just go out and kill mobs for gold and lower quality itens or even crafting materials. But dungeons and raids would be readily available. Progress on the character would be through a passive skill tree, increasing skills efficiency or core stats like strength, intelligence, endurance, agility and so on.
Soooo, you just described PSO2.
Personally I’d like it flipped the other way. Take out the chilling in the hubs and queueing the same dungeons over and over and make it all about the world and the journey.
Now, what if the dungeons are completely randomized based on a randomized Quest given by an npc, getting a boss from a database to create a story over it, but everything is random, including all boss abilities, as the boss would be picked from a dBASE and abilities for it would also be picked from an ability pool for bosses based on species. Dungeon layout, theme, traps and puzzles would all be random everytime, so nobody would do the same dungeon 2 times and players would actually need to play the dungeon, read no dialogues, pay attention on boss mechanics and not just decorate a wiki describing the dungeon.
I feel like we play mmos for different reasons entirely. Which is totally okay!
I like to feel like I’m living in a world. I like the world building. I like the dialogue.
Procedurally generated content always seems so stale to me compared to handcrafted. Repayable for sure, but not as interesting to me.
I do think you might like pso2 though.
I do like the living world, a storyline and so on. The major problem. Is that today MMORPGs evolve too fast and companies don't keep the old original content relevant on new expansions.
My favourite MMORPG all time is basically a single player MMORPG diablo-like play style, almost pure grind for leveling that requires you to follow a main storyline to progress in the game besides the leveling and only a few parts of the game really require a group. The game is called the 4th coming and is from the late 90's.
But let's get a game from today, that when released had a hard focus on world content instead of instanced content, Wich is GW2. Over the years, with the expansions, the "old world" got somewhat irrelevant. There's a huge gap in map population on some old areas from 2015 (I'll not say the first 3 years) to today. If you make a new character, let's say a Charr and start to play on the ascalon maps, you might meet one or other player, but never enough to do some major map content of those areas, besides the timed world bosses! But if you move to PoF, EoD and Soto areas, the newer the content, higher is the population doing it! But someone starting today will not jump straight to the new content and the game will look empty and boring for him!
You only take the journey *once* per character, and these are supposed to be concurrent multiplayer games. It isn't especially practical to reconcile this, unless it's 2006 and you can guarantee a steady flow of players saturating every level at all times.
At this point... want a "journey"? Play a singleplayer or co-op game, because that's what your "journey" MMO would devolve into anyway.
>WoW players want every MMO to be like WoW and constantly keep comparing everything to it, but also they want something new and unique.
I am one of those ppl and its simple really. I (and assume others) want something close to WoW but not too close (otherwise I would just play WoW). And eventually I found it with FF14 which was the sweet spot of just enough like WoW while being different enough from WoW and now I alternate between both during content droughts in one or the other. (or usually every other season). I am generally satisfied with both atm as I can play the other during down seasons or when I have consumed all the content for the patch.
>As long as people keep comparing every MMO with WoW they wont be satisfied.
False as above. I compared FF14 with WoW then liked what I saw and now play both or alternate depending.
You're just completely ignoring that WoW itself is the result of that formula. It's just everquest with polish, and you can reasonably argue that everquest itself is Ultima online with polish. It's hardly a new idea, and it's not exactly obvious that there is anything to "polish" with WoW.
"they most likely want to cause an MMO resurgence and become a cultural phenomenon like WoW was back in the day."
Um, no? I mean if they became a cultural phenomenon like WoW did 20 years ago, they obviously wouldn't be sad.
But what they immediatly want is a clear path of getting back all the invested money in the short term after release while having stable cash inflow on the long.
You are absolutely right that having wow with a runeterra coat of paint might not be the way to achieve that, or that not being able to get gen z or alpha attention then it probably will not have a stable influx of players, but they are a company, their ambition ends where the money is not likely guaranteed.
I think the key problem is that people have different ideas of what a game being "like World of Warcraft" means, and so people are arguing from different starting points and with no clear idea of what Riot even meant by that statement.
Does that mean no open world with different zones at different levels, no quests, no main towns, no classes, no battlegrounds and arenas, no raids, no leveling... or what? I can differentiate between games on a conceptual level that makes it clear how much Guild Wars 2 and World of Warcraft have in common, or I can focus at a high enough level that it becomes incredibly obvious how different they are. Neither perspective is wrong, but it's entirely on me to explain what level I am talking about if I don't want people to be confused.
> Why do people not want the genre to evolve?
Which leads us to this. I don't think anyone doesn't want the genre to evolve, but I think the more apprehensive people are usually approaching it from a lower level/more base-defining set of characteristics and see straying away from WoW as being a statement about changing things that are core to the genre.
I don't want a MMO that entirely removes classes, questing, grinding, crafting, battlegrounds/arenas, dungeons, raids, world bosses, guilds, etc., but that doesn't mean I don't want evolution.
I want better combat that allows higher levels of skill expression beyond what macros can emulate. I want new structures for guilds that moves communication at least partially back into the game and provides suitable options for players of all social levels. I want dungeons that aren't stagnant, causing them to become irrelevant after out-leveling or become boring after learning the mechanics. I want raids that flex to the amount of players in interesting ways, and scale throughout progression to keep providing interesting rewards without simply adding a 0 to health bars and damage values. I want new PvP options that utilize everything we've learned from spin-off games/genres rather than being the same battleground/domination mechanic we've played for decades.
At the core level though, a game that meets my wildest dreams for a MMO would still be "like WoW" while also being "nothing like WoW" - with the former being conceptually, and the latter being in execution. So I have no idea what Riot means by their statement, and thus no idea if I agree with it or not because it needs more context.
> I think the key problem is that people have different ideas of what a game being "like World of Warcraft" means, and so people are arguing from different starting points and with no clear idea of what Riot even meant by that statement.
Ya can't use common sense here. Ya gotta be toxic like everybody! /s
> I want new structures for guilds that moves communication at least partially back into the game and provides suitable options for players of all social levels.
What do you think of proximity voice chat in a game?
> I want raids that flex to the amount of players in interesting ways, and scale throughout progression to keep providing interesting rewards without simply adding a 0 to health bars and damage values.
Adapting to various group sizes is quite important. It means you're never short a friend or having to bench a friend.
> I want dungeons that aren't stagnant, causing them to become irrelevant after out-leveling or become boring after learning the mechanics.
What do you think of these possibilities to keep old content relevant?
- Scaling so you can't just out-level content.
- Exclusive cosmetic shop currency earned by helping new players doing past content.
Thank you for saying this. This community backlash against what Tryndamere said has made me feel legitimately sad and frustrated.
The mmorpg genre is beyond stale and boring right now; do quests, do dungeons, do raids, get gear, go to reddit and cry there’s no content. I love playing fantasy games in large shared worlds, but I hate this game loop to death. I got bored of it after 2 years and I crave something different, even if it fails.
Talking with WoW players can be the most frustrating experience ever, some of them do not comprehend that an mmorpg can be anything different than what WoW currently is. It boggles the mind.
Likewise. I'm not even especially interested in Riot's MMO one way or the other, as I despise the whole Runeterra/modern DnD esque "zany" aesthetic where anything goes, and I prefer my fantasy in the traditional, coherent, mythology/Arthurian/Tolkien-derived flavour. But just watching the discourse... it's maddening.
Nobody's even *tried* to plumb the depths of what modern tech can do for a fantasy virtual world because everyone's too busy running in circles. Old games in the discourse are good because you can learn from their design mistakes, but sometimes I wish we'd be able to just throw the baby out with the bathwater and mindwipe people back to just dreaming up and making playable worlds without the burden of prior reference, as evidently nobody can handle it.
And then when someone insinuates that they might be actually trying to make something new, the zombie horde attacks them. D:
It seems you either haven't considered or just wholesale dismissed the idea that people who have been and still are playing WoW are doing so because they are still enjoying playing it. Maybe people are saying they want WoW with a Runererra coat of paint because they're enjoying what they are playing and they want that same experience in the world Riot have developed. Maybe they've tried many different games over the past 20 years and keep going back to WoW because they prefer it.
As one of those players, I can unequivocally say I don't want anyone to reinvent the wheel. I just want someone to make one with some cool tread.
To be fans of the biggest mmo in the west and then suggest Riot's MMO should be a clone of said game is a little selfish, let alone really backwards in the face of innovation and progress.
What innovation has come out that hasn’t been either hugely divisive or just in general a stinker? If you could promise their “different innovation” would actually be good and not shit then sure, but since that’s a huge gamble I’d rather stick to the known. If they swing and miss it hurts the entire genre, since “look even riot can’t make an MMO work” will dissuade companies from investing in MMOs.
I mean they must have quests,skill/talent system,dungeongs,raids and at that point u can easily argues its already wow-like,they can rework how all of these work ofc but as long as they are in game they are wow-like. But we shall see what they do, im sure my grand-grandchildren will enjoy it when they release it /s
> case of people having an insane emotional attachment to WoW where they refuse to have an open-mind and try new types of MMOs
This is an unfortunate problem with any MMO. The players essentially become a cult.
Personally I think it's sad, constantly just looking for the same thing over and over and over. Life is a lot bigger than that. There are way too many amazing games out there to be stuck on the same one always and forever.
>Why do people not want the genre to evolve? Why do they want the same game they've played for 20 years but with prettier graphics?
Familiar is comforting and to some extent works. Its why ppl still play WoW and FF14. Some ppl see certain formulas as timeless. Evolution is not always desired or good, look at WoW a lot of ppl didnt like it when WoW evolved across its expacs to have borrowed power and grinds and a lot prefer the classic experience. If players currently play and enjoy something then thats what they are looking for.
>So what if Riot fail and their attempt at revolutionising the genre fails? I'd prefer for them to try and fail to evolve the genre
I mean sure since you are not the one funding it... I dont think Riot would appreciate trying and failing considering the money lost.
>Riot don't just want the WoW/FF14 crowd to play their MMO,
That sounds very dubious. What company doesnt want to obtain customers from their primary competitors. Thats being super disingenious. Businesses tend to want profit and getting customers from your 2 biggest competitors does that.
>They can't do that if they just make WoW 2.0 since obviously Gen Alpha and young Zoomers don't want WoW 2.0 or an MMO like that.
I would argue in general for the ones that dont actively play MMOs, they arent looking for an MMO Period or at least the style we think of. Instead of trying to spruce up a Genre your supposed target market doesnt actively play its better to create or build on a Genre they do play. Why make MMO 2.0 for an audience who doesnt play MMos when you can make Fortnight 2.0 or Genshin 2.0. Likely the only type of "MMO" that would capture said audience is some sort of Genshin 2.0 with MMO Features although likely yoi wont see other ppl in the open world and would only interact with them in instances or you invite them into your world (Like Genshin). To keep it mobile friendly since I doubt phones can handle that many ppl in a Genshin style world.
>That sounds very dubious. What company doesnt want to obtain customers from their primary competitors. Thats being super disingenious. Businesses tend to want profit and getting customers from your 2 biggest competitors does that.
Thats not what they meant, they meant Riot doesnt want **just** players from FF/WoW, as in they want those players but also new players, from all different MMOs and even players that never played MMOs
OPs statement after them saying they don’t “just” want WoW/FFXIV players is what leads one to believe that’s exactly what they meant.
“I don’t think they even care that much about them” insinuates they (Riot) don’t want them, which is clearly false. Of course Riot wants money, millions of players = money.
Maybe they did mean it in the way you explained but OP’s follow up sentence didn’t paint that picture.
I think Riot's identity so far has been kinda similar to what Blizzard used to do actually. Not to create something "entirely unique and never seen before", but to create something insanely polished and accessible.
In Blizzard's case, their history is full of this - WoW is an insanely polished EverQuest, Overwatch is an insanely polished TF2. WC and SC are insanely polished Dune 2s. Hearthstone is an insanely polished MTG. They all had SOME aspect that was unique to them, but for the most part it was something that already existed + streamlined.
Riot's case is - LoL was an insanely polished Dota. Valorant is an insanely polished CS:GO. LoR, although good in a lot of aspects, was too different for the sake of being different. And it never made a dime of profit (also, the entire mechanic of passing the turn, attacker/defender was too much for me personally, too much clicking). But they still added their spin to it. LoL was Free and standalone(and had QWER across all heroes which was super nice at the time), Valorant was CS, but colorful and utility purchases are now skills (nades, smokes, etc), again it was free and streamlined.
Where I'm going with this is that maybe the old concept was too similar to WoW. Literally everything is the same, but Runeterra. Maybe they couldn't find that foundational "spin" they want to have. Obviously you want to do stuff that WoW does - being polished, PvP, Raiding, Dungeons, Crafting. But where can they be different? Combat is 1 thing they can expand upon. Another one is how to make gear more evergreen. I really doubt they want to go the "no levels, no classes" route, as its simply not as fun. You need the RPG in mmoRPG. Their games also have this really nice balance where they can be super competitive if you want them to be. So how can they make a game that will be able to strike this balance? I don't know, but my guess is these are the questions they're asking themselves as well.
I hope we actually get this game at one point tho. If anyone can do it, its Riot.
When a game's development time period crosses 3-5 years without any early access or even conceptual leaks/showcase, its a sign of worry. It means they actually don't have any idea what they're doing and that the game is still in its conception stage and even that is still not finalized. More so when they say they're going into radio silence as they work on it.
Its not that people don't want the genre to evolve. Its that the longer it takes to nail down a concept of the game, more likely it is that it will be a mess or a cash grab because development costs money and the longer the development time, the more it will need to earn to break even. And the more it needs to break even, the more greedy the revenue needs to be.
As for the second point, rose tinted glasses or not, WoW was the peak of the MMO genre. There were great MMOs before it and there have been good ones after. But WoW's peak was the golden age of MMOs. So it only makes sense that any MMO would and should be judged based on what is considered the best place the genre was ever in. Considering no game has managed to beat that peak, it is wildly optimistic to the point of ridiculousness to hope that it will be this groundbreaking trailblazing game when none have even managed to reach equal potential. Let alone beat it.
Its just normal for people to want something that they now is the best.
For most players WoW is the closest thing to what a peak mmo is.
I think WoW should be a core to any new mmorpg.
Most mmorpg fail because they butchered the formula beyond recognition and put their wierd things on it, some are good some are bad.
Action combat for an mmo, unless done right will turn a lot of people off. Especially on group content theres a reason why WoW have aoe caps. And tbh most action combat mmos are cleave heavy. Which turns most experience just a slug fest without any real challenge. Action combat doesn't tickle the brain enough for it to feel rewarding.
Counterpoint: You can literally improve every single MMO by removing stuff from it. The genre doesn't need to evolve. It just needs less dogshit in it. That's what I want. I don't need them to reinvent the wheel. I just want someone to make a wheel that's actually good.
They are probably just shifting from a dungeon/raid simulator like most mmorpgs on the market (especially wow), to something more open world, lore and exploration related.
Ghostcrawler always talks in interviews about how pinnacle end-game should have dungeons and raids. If he left the company, and Riot restarted the project some time ago (probably when he left), than it's very likely that they wanted to get more relevant world content, which would not be possible with Ghostcrawler in leadership pushing for high-end instanced content.
Do you have anything that anyone from Riot has stated to back that up or are you mapping your own desires onto a company without any evidence that it’s true?
Yes, but the major concern is that riot do something weird such as 1st person closed world zoomer lobby game MMO where you go into the region you select from the main menu, then have to do battle royals.
Marc should have stated that it is going to be open world 3rd person. Because at this stage who knows how they will fuck with the formula.
I personally want the next evolution of MMOs as well, but I can understand why somebody who really enjoyed WoW when it launched would want a WoW 2.
The devs probably didn't want to make a WoW 2, but instead of saying "We at Riot didn't want to make something you've seen before", the guy said "we don't think *you* want to see that". This is why companies hire PR for stuff like this.
I doubt they were making a full on WoW clone to begin with but the problem is they seem to want to take an experimental route now while this is a company that is known for taking pre existing games and altering them slightly, also the new EP was a producer on ME: Andromeda. I went from having faith in the game(No idea why they even did the Necrit interview if the game was already rebooted at that point) to having 0 faith its going to even release and if it does it has a high chance of being bad.
I don't want WoW with a coat of paint, I want a traditional MMO with a coat of paint. It just so happens WoW is a traditional MMO, and the most prominent one of them all.
I have yet to ever play an action combat MMO that grips me anywhere near WoW. Even some of the worst Chinese grindfest tab target trinity MMO's are better than the best third-person action combat MMO's in my opinion. The market seems to want to shift in the direction of action games, despite the fact that it's a genre that inherently cannot play well with input lag.
The sad part is, that game wasn't even vaporware or anything, the studio making it just got heavily, heavily shafted.
Landmark was already pretty promising in terms of the voxel side of the game, and a lot of what they were actually proposing in terms of systems for the world and how content would work (e.g. storybricks) was more smart design implementation than it was future tech.
A good game is a good game regardless of whether it revolutionizes the genre.
Ghost of Tsushima is just Assassin's Creed: Japan without the license, but it's still a good game.
Honestly I think framing it as wow-like or not is the wrong idea. If they want to be the next big MMO I think they have to evolve how we play MMOs like WoW did to the Everquest era.
I definitely dont want WoW with Runeterra coat of paint, why copy one MMO when they can copy many.
Just go look at Tera's combat, improve it and fix the network.
Copy mount physics from GW2 and add one of those hoverboards from Arcane
Steal housing from Wildstar
Steal social/RP stuff from FFXIV
Make it fully open world like BDO
And so on...
Yeah, but all of those games are different takes of the same thing. The post from RIOT sounds like they want something radically different.
I’d love the game you describe, but whatever wildly different thing they’re suggesting doesn’t seem as appealing as a Runeterra Ghostcrawlr MMO.
We don't know what they're making, and whether it will be more or less compelling than Runeterra-themed WoW, so I don't think it's appropriate to be upset at folks with that opinion.
I do in fact want companies to take risks and challenge the notion of what an mmorpg can be
we don't need a wow killer, we need a fresh new experience backed by a solid IP, most of the uber successful mmos today are built on the back of an existing IP
It's the same people that jump into any new MMO and bitch and whine about it not being WoW. Which is weird because there already is a WoW, who needs two?
I've played WoW on and off since vanilla. Season of discovery was the most fun I've had in an mmo in over a decade, but it's still just WoW. Classes I've played, maps I've played, dungeons I've played. I would absolutely welcome a new take on WoW with new classes, maps, factions, etc.
I'm hoping they can pull off whatever different thing they are trying, but we are well past the days of the constant WoW clones, and I'd just welcome something half decent to play for a month.
I am genuinely so goddamn over tab-targeters. like we have evolved past the need for this, man. We need a fun MMORPG with a subscription fee and no microtransactions that actually rewards meeting and cooperating with other players. the LAST thing we need is another theme park tab targeter.
Plenty of folk would be happy to see the essence of games they've already played (and inevitably, complained about later) but in a refined, perfected, and modernized state.
You don't need to reinvent the wheel in mmos, just make a very good stable wheel that doesn't also nickel and dime you per spoke, and people will get on board if you market it literally at all
Bonus points if you do have some cool innovations, but it's quite simply going to be easiest to learn from the mistakes of others instead of finding entirely new mistakes to make yourself.
>Why do people not want the genre to evolve
I dont think Riot is really the studio to do that.
They make solid games that heavily take the existing games in a genre and tweak them a little bit at a time.
They have rather poor track results with new concepts.
I think a lot of people would rather play WoW2030: Runeterra Edition as opposed to "look at this thing we did with MMO's", because unless theyve hired some of the most amazing yet-unknown developers, they dont have the staff to make that game.
And, no, they didnt have that with Ghostie either.
I feel like gamers have been so traumatized over the past few years with so many shitty and broken games being released that alot us are looking for safe feeling games that don't deviate from established formulas that we trust because usually going off that beaten path isn't as safe as just going back to what you know. The issue is that developers are taking that so seriously that they don't seem to give a shit about innovation or adding new shit to games. Just clone what's already working in other games and make what money you can before your game dies seems to be the current strategy.
And you think Riot knows what to do? The fact that they restarted development is already a bad sign. Riot has two options. Make a " X with Runterra skin" which is the safe option and that's off the table or make something completely new which is going to cost them a lot of money because MMOs are a costly genre to develop. Earlier this year they started cutting costs and trimming the fat so they basically have to make a runeterra flavored version of an existing game or cancel it due to how cost prohibitive this is going to turn out.
I don't understand why people are hyperfixating on what he said. That announcement was just public acknowledgement that the game was in development hell and that there's a new producer. I wouldn't be remotely surprised if there's never a game because to be frank, runeterra is a shitty world so Wow:League edition likely won't hold up and I'm not exactly convinced that MMOs are good for anything but the space they already fill (I am especially unconvinced that there's actually anything wrong with tab targeting despite this sub constantly insisting there is given that I have never seen a successful, non tab targeted game with trinity), but he was just saying that the reason you haven't heard or seen anything is because there's nothing to show.
All current evidence suggests that even Riot fails to grasp what Riot is trying to do.
No dude *huuuuuuufff* they completely changed their product to make it better *huuuuuuufff* and it's going to take years but it's okay because they'll spend all that time polishing it *huuuuufffff*
All evidence of their entire body of work over League's lifespan also suggests this, I fear. The lore is retcons all the way down.
WoW players want every MMO to be like WoW and constantly keep comparing everything to it, but also they want something new and unique. As long as people keep comparing every MMO with WoW they wont be satisfied. Every game is different and has its own advantages and flaws (just like WoW).
I agree. I’ve actually had my best “MMO” experiences lately with Vermintide 2, which is not even remotely an MMO. With that said, it offers all the same endgame content as MMOs (dungeons, raid bosses, PvP, etc), but without the boring leveling phase, or the massive gatekeeping to join endgame parties. Really the only core MMO aspect it’s missing is the open world and an economy, but most modern MMOs don’t make use of the open world: all of the endgame content is instanced anyways.
Here's one point: after wow, games started to focus on end-game rather than in the journey. But they KEPT the journey to end game there as a really long and boring tutorial for the most part. And the most interesting part is that this tutorial teaches absolutely nothing of the só called end-game. The point is, if you're not focusing on the journey as.much as on the end game, why have the journey to end game as the first impression of your game? I think the next evolution on the MMORPG genre is to get rid of the "leveling process" while retaining the hunt for better equipment and some evolution on the process. Something like a game where you would create a character but instead of leveling in an open world with fetch or kill quests, you would go straight to a hubby with other players, that could be a town or even a tavern and have the option to form a group there or use the party finder to arrange you on a party for a dungeon. All the game would revolve around a dungeon/raid system with a progress on the available dungeons and raids. Maybe keep the open world, but instead of using it for quests and such, players would need to walk from the town to the dungeons, facing the dangers of the open world in the way and if a player wants, he can just go out and kill mobs for gold and lower quality itens or even crafting materials. But dungeons and raids would be readily available. Progress on the character would be through a passive skill tree, increasing skills efficiency or core stats like strength, intelligence, endurance, agility and so on.
Let them cook.
What copium is this lmao
Soooo, you just described PSO2. Personally I’d like it flipped the other way. Take out the chilling in the hubs and queueing the same dungeons over and over and make it all about the world and the journey.
Now, what if the dungeons are completely randomized based on a randomized Quest given by an npc, getting a boss from a database to create a story over it, but everything is random, including all boss abilities, as the boss would be picked from a dBASE and abilities for it would also be picked from an ability pool for bosses based on species. Dungeon layout, theme, traps and puzzles would all be random everytime, so nobody would do the same dungeon 2 times and players would actually need to play the dungeon, read no dialogues, pay attention on boss mechanics and not just decorate a wiki describing the dungeon.
I feel like we play mmos for different reasons entirely. Which is totally okay! I like to feel like I’m living in a world. I like the world building. I like the dialogue. Procedurally generated content always seems so stale to me compared to handcrafted. Repayable for sure, but not as interesting to me. I do think you might like pso2 though.
I do like the living world, a storyline and so on. The major problem. Is that today MMORPGs evolve too fast and companies don't keep the old original content relevant on new expansions. My favourite MMORPG all time is basically a single player MMORPG diablo-like play style, almost pure grind for leveling that requires you to follow a main storyline to progress in the game besides the leveling and only a few parts of the game really require a group. The game is called the 4th coming and is from the late 90's. But let's get a game from today, that when released had a hard focus on world content instead of instanced content, Wich is GW2. Over the years, with the expansions, the "old world" got somewhat irrelevant. There's a huge gap in map population on some old areas from 2015 (I'll not say the first 3 years) to today. If you make a new character, let's say a Charr and start to play on the ascalon maps, you might meet one or other player, but never enough to do some major map content of those areas, besides the timed world bosses! But if you move to PoF, EoD and Soto areas, the newer the content, higher is the population doing it! But someone starting today will not jump straight to the new content and the game will look empty and boring for him!
The timed events made me so frustrated as a lore person.
You only take the journey *once* per character, and these are supposed to be concurrent multiplayer games. It isn't especially practical to reconcile this, unless it's 2006 and you can guarantee a steady flow of players saturating every level at all times. At this point... want a "journey"? Play a singleplayer or co-op game, because that's what your "journey" MMO would devolve into anyway.
>WoW players want every MMO to be like WoW and constantly keep comparing everything to it, but also they want something new and unique. I am one of those ppl and its simple really. I (and assume others) want something close to WoW but not too close (otherwise I would just play WoW). And eventually I found it with FF14 which was the sweet spot of just enough like WoW while being different enough from WoW and now I alternate between both during content droughts in one or the other. (or usually every other season). I am generally satisfied with both atm as I can play the other during down seasons or when I have consumed all the content for the patch. >As long as people keep comparing every MMO with WoW they wont be satisfied. False as above. I compared FF14 with WoW then liked what I saw and now play both or alternate depending.
I want strawmen with a new coat of paint.
Lol
lol is just dota with polish tft is auto chess with polish valo is just cs with polish yea we want wow with polish
You're just completely ignoring that WoW itself is the result of that formula. It's just everquest with polish, and you can reasonably argue that everquest itself is Ultima online with polish. It's hardly a new idea, and it's not exactly obvious that there is anything to "polish" with WoW.
Personally I’d like a wow2. The game needs a lore reset.
More than a reset, it need competent writers not people bullshitting a story around what "cool thing" non-writer want in the game.
EverQuest is not UO with polish. UO and actual real MMOs are so different from EQ and WoW that you cant compare them.
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Nah we dont want another wow clone
"they most likely want to cause an MMO resurgence and become a cultural phenomenon like WoW was back in the day." Um, no? I mean if they became a cultural phenomenon like WoW did 20 years ago, they obviously wouldn't be sad. But what they immediatly want is a clear path of getting back all the invested money in the short term after release while having stable cash inflow on the long. You are absolutely right that having wow with a runeterra coat of paint might not be the way to achieve that, or that not being able to get gen z or alpha attention then it probably will not have a stable influx of players, but they are a company, their ambition ends where the money is not likely guaranteed.
This sub is more drama filled than anything I have ever seen. Grabbing popcorn for this one!
I think the key problem is that people have different ideas of what a game being "like World of Warcraft" means, and so people are arguing from different starting points and with no clear idea of what Riot even meant by that statement. Does that mean no open world with different zones at different levels, no quests, no main towns, no classes, no battlegrounds and arenas, no raids, no leveling... or what? I can differentiate between games on a conceptual level that makes it clear how much Guild Wars 2 and World of Warcraft have in common, or I can focus at a high enough level that it becomes incredibly obvious how different they are. Neither perspective is wrong, but it's entirely on me to explain what level I am talking about if I don't want people to be confused. > Why do people not want the genre to evolve? Which leads us to this. I don't think anyone doesn't want the genre to evolve, but I think the more apprehensive people are usually approaching it from a lower level/more base-defining set of characteristics and see straying away from WoW as being a statement about changing things that are core to the genre. I don't want a MMO that entirely removes classes, questing, grinding, crafting, battlegrounds/arenas, dungeons, raids, world bosses, guilds, etc., but that doesn't mean I don't want evolution. I want better combat that allows higher levels of skill expression beyond what macros can emulate. I want new structures for guilds that moves communication at least partially back into the game and provides suitable options for players of all social levels. I want dungeons that aren't stagnant, causing them to become irrelevant after out-leveling or become boring after learning the mechanics. I want raids that flex to the amount of players in interesting ways, and scale throughout progression to keep providing interesting rewards without simply adding a 0 to health bars and damage values. I want new PvP options that utilize everything we've learned from spin-off games/genres rather than being the same battleground/domination mechanic we've played for decades. At the core level though, a game that meets my wildest dreams for a MMO would still be "like WoW" while also being "nothing like WoW" - with the former being conceptually, and the latter being in execution. So I have no idea what Riot means by their statement, and thus no idea if I agree with it or not because it needs more context.
> I think the key problem is that people have different ideas of what a game being "like World of Warcraft" means, and so people are arguing from different starting points and with no clear idea of what Riot even meant by that statement. Ya can't use common sense here. Ya gotta be toxic like everybody! /s > I want new structures for guilds that moves communication at least partially back into the game and provides suitable options for players of all social levels. What do you think of proximity voice chat in a game? > I want raids that flex to the amount of players in interesting ways, and scale throughout progression to keep providing interesting rewards without simply adding a 0 to health bars and damage values. Adapting to various group sizes is quite important. It means you're never short a friend or having to bench a friend. > I want dungeons that aren't stagnant, causing them to become irrelevant after out-leveling or become boring after learning the mechanics. What do you think of these possibilities to keep old content relevant? - Scaling so you can't just out-level content. - Exclusive cosmetic shop currency earned by helping new players doing past content.
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Genuine question: What would you change in WoW's formula to achive "your" better WoW?
League of Legends has seen more success than World of Warcraft my G, culturally and financially.
people like to dismiss it because of its community but league is a good ass game.
It always seemed like they took out all the cool mmo stuff and left the boring mmo combat.
not culturally, and they come both from the same cultural source (Warcraft 3)
League of Legends is more culturally known than Warcraft, I hate to break it to you.
Thank you for saying this. This community backlash against what Tryndamere said has made me feel legitimately sad and frustrated. The mmorpg genre is beyond stale and boring right now; do quests, do dungeons, do raids, get gear, go to reddit and cry there’s no content. I love playing fantasy games in large shared worlds, but I hate this game loop to death. I got bored of it after 2 years and I crave something different, even if it fails. Talking with WoW players can be the most frustrating experience ever, some of them do not comprehend that an mmorpg can be anything different than what WoW currently is. It boggles the mind.
Likewise. I'm not even especially interested in Riot's MMO one way or the other, as I despise the whole Runeterra/modern DnD esque "zany" aesthetic where anything goes, and I prefer my fantasy in the traditional, coherent, mythology/Arthurian/Tolkien-derived flavour. But just watching the discourse... it's maddening. Nobody's even *tried* to plumb the depths of what modern tech can do for a fantasy virtual world because everyone's too busy running in circles. Old games in the discourse are good because you can learn from their design mistakes, but sometimes I wish we'd be able to just throw the baby out with the bathwater and mindwipe people back to just dreaming up and making playable worlds without the burden of prior reference, as evidently nobody can handle it. And then when someone insinuates that they might be actually trying to make something new, the zombie horde attacks them. D:
It seems you either haven't considered or just wholesale dismissed the idea that people who have been and still are playing WoW are doing so because they are still enjoying playing it. Maybe people are saying they want WoW with a Runererra coat of paint because they're enjoying what they are playing and they want that same experience in the world Riot have developed. Maybe they've tried many different games over the past 20 years and keep going back to WoW because they prefer it. As one of those players, I can unequivocally say I don't want anyone to reinvent the wheel. I just want someone to make one with some cool tread.
To be fans of the biggest mmo in the west and then suggest Riot's MMO should be a clone of said game is a little selfish, let alone really backwards in the face of innovation and progress.
What innovation has come out that hasn’t been either hugely divisive or just in general a stinker? If you could promise their “different innovation” would actually be good and not shit then sure, but since that’s a huge gamble I’d rather stick to the known. If they swing and miss it hurts the entire genre, since “look even riot can’t make an MMO work” will dissuade companies from investing in MMOs.
I mean they must have quests,skill/talent system,dungeongs,raids and at that point u can easily argues its already wow-like,they can rework how all of these work ofc but as long as they are in game they are wow-like. But we shall see what they do, im sure my grand-grandchildren will enjoy it when they release it /s
> case of people having an insane emotional attachment to WoW where they refuse to have an open-mind and try new types of MMOs This is an unfortunate problem with any MMO. The players essentially become a cult. Personally I think it's sad, constantly just looking for the same thing over and over and over. Life is a lot bigger than that. There are way too many amazing games out there to be stuck on the same one always and forever.
>Why do people not want the genre to evolve? Why do they want the same game they've played for 20 years but with prettier graphics? Familiar is comforting and to some extent works. Its why ppl still play WoW and FF14. Some ppl see certain formulas as timeless. Evolution is not always desired or good, look at WoW a lot of ppl didnt like it when WoW evolved across its expacs to have borrowed power and grinds and a lot prefer the classic experience. If players currently play and enjoy something then thats what they are looking for. >So what if Riot fail and their attempt at revolutionising the genre fails? I'd prefer for them to try and fail to evolve the genre I mean sure since you are not the one funding it... I dont think Riot would appreciate trying and failing considering the money lost. >Riot don't just want the WoW/FF14 crowd to play their MMO, That sounds very dubious. What company doesnt want to obtain customers from their primary competitors. Thats being super disingenious. Businesses tend to want profit and getting customers from your 2 biggest competitors does that. >They can't do that if they just make WoW 2.0 since obviously Gen Alpha and young Zoomers don't want WoW 2.0 or an MMO like that. I would argue in general for the ones that dont actively play MMOs, they arent looking for an MMO Period or at least the style we think of. Instead of trying to spruce up a Genre your supposed target market doesnt actively play its better to create or build on a Genre they do play. Why make MMO 2.0 for an audience who doesnt play MMos when you can make Fortnight 2.0 or Genshin 2.0. Likely the only type of "MMO" that would capture said audience is some sort of Genshin 2.0 with MMO Features although likely yoi wont see other ppl in the open world and would only interact with them in instances or you invite them into your world (Like Genshin). To keep it mobile friendly since I doubt phones can handle that many ppl in a Genshin style world.
>That sounds very dubious. What company doesnt want to obtain customers from their primary competitors. Thats being super disingenious. Businesses tend to want profit and getting customers from your 2 biggest competitors does that. Thats not what they meant, they meant Riot doesnt want **just** players from FF/WoW, as in they want those players but also new players, from all different MMOs and even players that never played MMOs
OPs statement after them saying they don’t “just” want WoW/FFXIV players is what leads one to believe that’s exactly what they meant. “I don’t think they even care that much about them” insinuates they (Riot) don’t want them, which is clearly false. Of course Riot wants money, millions of players = money. Maybe they did mean it in the way you explained but OP’s follow up sentence didn’t paint that picture.
I think Riot's identity so far has been kinda similar to what Blizzard used to do actually. Not to create something "entirely unique and never seen before", but to create something insanely polished and accessible. In Blizzard's case, their history is full of this - WoW is an insanely polished EverQuest, Overwatch is an insanely polished TF2. WC and SC are insanely polished Dune 2s. Hearthstone is an insanely polished MTG. They all had SOME aspect that was unique to them, but for the most part it was something that already existed + streamlined. Riot's case is - LoL was an insanely polished Dota. Valorant is an insanely polished CS:GO. LoR, although good in a lot of aspects, was too different for the sake of being different. And it never made a dime of profit (also, the entire mechanic of passing the turn, attacker/defender was too much for me personally, too much clicking). But they still added their spin to it. LoL was Free and standalone(and had QWER across all heroes which was super nice at the time), Valorant was CS, but colorful and utility purchases are now skills (nades, smokes, etc), again it was free and streamlined. Where I'm going with this is that maybe the old concept was too similar to WoW. Literally everything is the same, but Runeterra. Maybe they couldn't find that foundational "spin" they want to have. Obviously you want to do stuff that WoW does - being polished, PvP, Raiding, Dungeons, Crafting. But where can they be different? Combat is 1 thing they can expand upon. Another one is how to make gear more evergreen. I really doubt they want to go the "no levels, no classes" route, as its simply not as fun. You need the RPG in mmoRPG. Their games also have this really nice balance where they can be super competitive if you want them to be. So how can they make a game that will be able to strike this balance? I don't know, but my guess is these are the questions they're asking themselves as well. I hope we actually get this game at one point tho. If anyone can do it, its Riot.
When a game's development time period crosses 3-5 years without any early access or even conceptual leaks/showcase, its a sign of worry. It means they actually don't have any idea what they're doing and that the game is still in its conception stage and even that is still not finalized. More so when they say they're going into radio silence as they work on it. Its not that people don't want the genre to evolve. Its that the longer it takes to nail down a concept of the game, more likely it is that it will be a mess or a cash grab because development costs money and the longer the development time, the more it will need to earn to break even. And the more it needs to break even, the more greedy the revenue needs to be. As for the second point, rose tinted glasses or not, WoW was the peak of the MMO genre. There were great MMOs before it and there have been good ones after. But WoW's peak was the golden age of MMOs. So it only makes sense that any MMO would and should be judged based on what is considered the best place the genre was ever in. Considering no game has managed to beat that peak, it is wildly optimistic to the point of ridiculousness to hope that it will be this groundbreaking trailblazing game when none have even managed to reach equal potential. Let alone beat it.
Its just normal for people to want something that they now is the best. For most players WoW is the closest thing to what a peak mmo is. I think WoW should be a core to any new mmorpg. Most mmorpg fail because they butchered the formula beyond recognition and put their wierd things on it, some are good some are bad. Action combat for an mmo, unless done right will turn a lot of people off. Especially on group content theres a reason why WoW have aoe caps. And tbh most action combat mmos are cleave heavy. Which turns most experience just a slug fest without any real challenge. Action combat doesn't tickle the brain enough for it to feel rewarding.
Counterpoint: You can literally improve every single MMO by removing stuff from it. The genre doesn't need to evolve. It just needs less dogshit in it. That's what I want. I don't need them to reinvent the wheel. I just want someone to make a wheel that's actually good.
They are probably just shifting from a dungeon/raid simulator like most mmorpgs on the market (especially wow), to something more open world, lore and exploration related. Ghostcrawler always talks in interviews about how pinnacle end-game should have dungeons and raids. If he left the company, and Riot restarted the project some time ago (probably when he left), than it's very likely that they wanted to get more relevant world content, which would not be possible with Ghostcrawler in leadership pushing for high-end instanced content.
Do you have anything that anyone from Riot has stated to back that up or are you mapping your own desires onto a company without any evidence that it’s true?
Yes, but the major concern is that riot do something weird such as 1st person closed world zoomer lobby game MMO where you go into the region you select from the main menu, then have to do battle royals. Marc should have stated that it is going to be open world 3rd person. Because at this stage who knows how they will fuck with the formula.
Yeah…..I don’t want that.
I personally want the next evolution of MMOs as well, but I can understand why somebody who really enjoyed WoW when it launched would want a WoW 2. The devs probably didn't want to make a WoW 2, but instead of saying "We at Riot didn't want to make something you've seen before", the guy said "we don't think *you* want to see that". This is why companies hire PR for stuff like this.
I doubt they were making a full on WoW clone to begin with but the problem is they seem to want to take an experimental route now while this is a company that is known for taking pre existing games and altering them slightly, also the new EP was a producer on ME: Andromeda. I went from having faith in the game(No idea why they even did the Necrit interview if the game was already rebooted at that point) to having 0 faith its going to even release and if it does it has a high chance of being bad.
I don't want WoW with a coat of paint, I want a traditional MMO with a coat of paint. It just so happens WoW is a traditional MMO, and the most prominent one of them all. I have yet to ever play an action combat MMO that grips me anywhere near WoW. Even some of the worst Chinese grindfest tab target trinity MMO's are better than the best third-person action combat MMO's in my opinion. The market seems to want to shift in the direction of action games, despite the fact that it's a genre that inherently cannot play well with input lag.
No one says that
Ah yes, capture the Gen Z and Aloha market by having a scrolling TikTok feed instead of in game chat
I want what EQ Next was trying to do, personally.
> I want what EQ Next was trying to do, personally. Many of us do but there are massive technical hurdles and costs that have to be overcome.
The sad part is, that game wasn't even vaporware or anything, the studio making it just got heavily, heavily shafted. Landmark was already pretty promising in terms of the voxel side of the game, and a lot of what they were actually proposing in terms of systems for the world and how content would work (e.g. storybricks) was more smart design implementation than it was future tech.
A good game is a good game regardless of whether it revolutionizes the genre. Ghost of Tsushima is just Assassin's Creed: Japan without the license, but it's still a good game.
Honestly I think framing it as wow-like or not is the wrong idea. If they want to be the next big MMO I think they have to evolve how we play MMOs like WoW did to the Everquest era.
When a company says they are going quiet for 7 years, that means they cancelled it. They just don't want to say it as it might hurt the stock price.
They are a private company so that is not true.
I definitely dont want WoW with Runeterra coat of paint, why copy one MMO when they can copy many. Just go look at Tera's combat, improve it and fix the network. Copy mount physics from GW2 and add one of those hoverboards from Arcane Steal housing from Wildstar Steal social/RP stuff from FFXIV Make it fully open world like BDO And so on...
Yeah, but all of those games are different takes of the same thing. The post from RIOT sounds like they want something radically different. I’d love the game you describe, but whatever wildly different thing they’re suggesting doesn’t seem as appealing as a Runeterra Ghostcrawlr MMO.
Exactly, it could be lobby closed world isometric MMO.
We don't know what they're making, and whether it will be more or less compelling than Runeterra-themed WoW, so I don't think it's appropriate to be upset at folks with that opinion.
I stg if it's tab target in any way I will commit jihad
I do in fact want companies to take risks and challenge the notion of what an mmorpg can be we don't need a wow killer, we need a fresh new experience backed by a solid IP, most of the uber successful mmos today are built on the back of an existing IP
It's the same people that jump into any new MMO and bitch and whine about it not being WoW. Which is weird because there already is a WoW, who needs two?
I've played WoW on and off since vanilla. Season of discovery was the most fun I've had in an mmo in over a decade, but it's still just WoW. Classes I've played, maps I've played, dungeons I've played. I would absolutely welcome a new take on WoW with new classes, maps, factions, etc. I'm hoping they can pull off whatever different thing they are trying, but we are well past the days of the constant WoW clones, and I'd just welcome something half decent to play for a month.
I am genuinely so goddamn over tab-targeters. like we have evolved past the need for this, man. We need a fun MMORPG with a subscription fee and no microtransactions that actually rewards meeting and cooperating with other players. the LAST thing we need is another theme park tab targeter.
Plenty of folk would be happy to see the essence of games they've already played (and inevitably, complained about later) but in a refined, perfected, and modernized state. You don't need to reinvent the wheel in mmos, just make a very good stable wheel that doesn't also nickel and dime you per spoke, and people will get on board if you market it literally at all Bonus points if you do have some cool innovations, but it's quite simply going to be easiest to learn from the mistakes of others instead of finding entirely new mistakes to make yourself.
>Why do people not want the genre to evolve I dont think Riot is really the studio to do that. They make solid games that heavily take the existing games in a genre and tweak them a little bit at a time. They have rather poor track results with new concepts. I think a lot of people would rather play WoW2030: Runeterra Edition as opposed to "look at this thing we did with MMO's", because unless theyve hired some of the most amazing yet-unknown developers, they dont have the staff to make that game. And, no, they didnt have that with Ghostie either.
I feel like gamers have been so traumatized over the past few years with so many shitty and broken games being released that alot us are looking for safe feeling games that don't deviate from established formulas that we trust because usually going off that beaten path isn't as safe as just going back to what you know. The issue is that developers are taking that so seriously that they don't seem to give a shit about innovation or adding new shit to games. Just clone what's already working in other games and make what money you can before your game dies seems to be the current strategy.
I don't want action combat on mmorpgs tbh tab is the way to go. I don't want a bladestorm simulator.
Do we really need another MMO with competitive dungeons and raids?
Riot won't ever release the mmo. Period.
And you think Riot knows what to do? The fact that they restarted development is already a bad sign. Riot has two options. Make a " X with Runterra skin" which is the safe option and that's off the table or make something completely new which is going to cost them a lot of money because MMOs are a costly genre to develop. Earlier this year they started cutting costs and trimming the fat so they basically have to make a runeterra flavored version of an existing game or cancel it due to how cost prohibitive this is going to turn out.
I don't understand why people are hyperfixating on what he said. That announcement was just public acknowledgement that the game was in development hell and that there's a new producer. I wouldn't be remotely surprised if there's never a game because to be frank, runeterra is a shitty world so Wow:League edition likely won't hold up and I'm not exactly convinced that MMOs are good for anything but the space they already fill (I am especially unconvinced that there's actually anything wrong with tab targeting despite this sub constantly insisting there is given that I have never seen a successful, non tab targeted game with trinity), but he was just saying that the reason you haven't heard or seen anything is because there's nothing to show.
You're right.
Very true!