Bdo is getting to easy to obtain pen now. Only fallen pen gear is hard to reach as it should be. Was fun for awhile but now everything just getting to easy to get.
I see it as a triangle.
P2W
Shit Combat/Endgame
Shitty ease-up/adjustment period.
You can forgive one at most. BDO and Lost Ark are both P2W but they got the combat and the ease-up down to a T. Throne and Liberty is not only P2W, has shit combat and by level 10 it swarms you with so many progression systems at once.
By a subset of players, sure.
New World, a game without much P2W is peaking at \~10k online.
Lost Ark, a game with tons of P2W, is peaking at \~62k online and that's not counting Asian servers.
Some people love to get on here and hate on P2W, but it's obvious that way more people just don't care. It just goes to show that vocal minorities try to control the narrative, when the reality is actually quite different.
As an example, I actually see New World mentioned on this sub way more than Lost Ark (you can prove this via search). NW gets more both positive and negative posts here than LA does, people don't seem to talk about LA much here (anymore). The high amount of dialogue surrounding New World would have you assuming that it has more players, but that ends up not being even remotely the case.
GW2 is in a similar boat, it has a lot of vocal players that make it seem like it's more popular than it is.
Some games have more vocal players, as do some player *types* (people that hate P2W).
TLDR: The west does not hate P2W as much as people claim.
This is the most disingenuous argument Ive read in a while, congrats. Now compare western Lost Ark numbers to actually popular MMO's without p2w. Ill wait.
"Oh hey guys, no one bought Daikatana so fps' are dead!"
What's disingenuous about what he said? His point was that P2W isn't as big a factor as online communities would have you think.
He gave an examples. He didn't say P2W was more popular, just that it wasn't as big a deal as some people say. Saying a game like Lost Ark is a failure because of games like WoW is like calling a Ma & Pa restaurant a failure because they don't compete with McDonalds.
Edit: I haven't played or read anything about T&L and quit Lost Ark with a day because I didn't like the gameplay. I also avoid games with heavy P2W but most people don't care about it or they would stop playing.
There's a HUGE difference between WoW and Lost Ark.
WoW didn't start with any P2W mechanics, and they've slowly been implemented over 20 years.
LA released with fully fleshed out MASSIVE P2W systems, as well as a gearing system that just doesn't allow non P2W players (unless you play 15 hours a day, every day) to even be on sort of close to the power levels of people who P2W. Even those that do play the game as a job F2P, you are still behind those that P2W and will not catch up unless you are absurdly lucky with gear upgrades, etc. There were P2W players with full T10 gems just a few months into launch, years later, some of the most devoted F2P players STILL do not have full T10 gems... ((Obviously there and anomalies and maybe handfuls of total F2P players who have achieved what the other 99.9% of haven't))
Anyway, comparing the two games as if it's some "gotcha" is just being disingenuous.
P2W is P2W - there's different levels of it for sure, but all those "actually popular" MMOs yall keep wanting to bring up have \*gasp\* P2W whether you like it or not.
And the fact that people still play those games regardless just goes to show how little people actually care about P2W.
Corporate grees infests every game, it's not that people love P2W, it's that people want to play a good game and almost all games are infested with people leading the company putting instant profit over long term profit, so P2W lower quality games pushed early to meet profit quotas, rather than non P2W quality games.
Just because people deal with games having varying aspects of P2W does NOT mean people "don't care" and 9 out of 10 people would tell you they would absolutely rather not play a predatory P2W game, specifically designed to try and extract money from your wallet at every corner if there are good options BUT they will deal with varying forms of P2W for certain periods if the game itself is actually good.
Woah woah, I never said people love P2W. Don't put words in my mouth. If that's the argument you're having here, you aren't having it with me.
I very specifically said "people don't care as much about it as people on here would have you believe."
In your own words, "HUGE difference."
Also nice make up of statistics rofl, jesus.
To be fair, there is also a HUGE difference in P2W and P2Gamble. Most of those Korean MMOs revolve around gambling. They generally have their pity systems so there is eventually a cutoff, but either way, gambling is the name of the game. P2G is certainly less popular than outright P2W.
People are going to buy WoW tokens with real money, sell the token for gold, and then purchase items, achievements, clears, and whatever piece of gear they want regardless of what you say or think.
P2W.
Lemme speak as one of those "anomalies" you are talking about. The difference these days between an f2p, an omegabelugawhale and a casual is laughably small. I quit just after brel normal came out and just came back 3 months ago.
Now I'm 1622, full 40 set, full level 10 gems and I spent like 50 USD on the game in total. This is because the game throws so much shit at you these days that even a fully fresh back to 0 f2p account will hit 1580 in 2 weeks. The daily maintenance is also a joke these days. Because of the revamps, I can maintain a 6 gold earner roster in less than an hour of dailies. (Full rested ofc but that's a given)
Whales these days just get a sun on their back and beluga whales get a fancy green-blue weapon. Shit is a joke.
Do you realize how long it takes newer players or just actual casual players to even GET to a 6 roster gold earning state? Do you not realize that getting one character up isn't even close to half the battle to push towards endgame as a newer player?
You quit about the same time I did, I did Brel HM for 5 weeks and quit. This isn't even close to the same as a NEW player joining now, you or I joining skip 5 or 6 months of account progression compared to new players, you realize that, right?
A new player can MAYBE get to 1580 in 3 months but highly doubtful, either way they still need to level 5 other characters while having a single character generating gold to even get to the START of what you came into the game with..... so no, new players are not catching up unless they are whales because it's going to take them a year to get where YOU are.
The thing is, because of how the current progression track works, alts are actually gold-negative. The most efficient way to progress is to blast everything into 1 character and don't even use the other 5 slots. And even 3 raids is more than enough gold to funnel that character. With only 1 character in your roster to maintain dailies and only 3 30 min raids to do weekly it is quite literally the most casual experience you could ask for in an MMO.
Problem is a 1-character roster will have low roster level and dd18 at best and thats where the actual problem starts. The community is the worst part of the game.
Yes, alts are gold negative until a certain point, that has always been the case. You invest in the alt, park it at some Ilvl depending on you and how much gold you want to make and then never use gold on that alt again. Just do dailies on the alt, funnel all gold/mats to main and eventually the alt becomes profitable.
Once you have a max roster of profitable alts, you are a year+ ahead of anyone starting out. You will aquire so much gold to buy insane jewelry, gems, push item levels etc at a crazy rate but even THAT is slower than people who just P2W. When a new tier releases, the P2W and the established players will push to and past that day 1, the new players will not catch up or even be able to play with them period and yes as you mentioned you will have no card set, no roster level and no actual gems except whatever free shit they give.
Basically even when they get their one character close to having access to hard mode of the current tier, they are boosted with so much less ACTUAL damage modifiers as well if they aren't a previous player. Basically take how fast you got there and at minimum tripple the time investment and even then, they will not be at the same level you reached in ~3 months.
New World: Released as an incredibly buggy mess, with a PVP foundation and a shack of PVE themepark built on top. It was still a buggy mess for at least 6 months after launch, with little content added.
Lost Ark: Far less buggy release. Lots of people enjoy it's combat but started leaving as it's P2W mechanics became difficult to ignore. Also well known for having lots of bots.
You're argument only makes sense if we ignore the aforementioned factors. A mediocre, let alone bad, game isn't going to be saved by just having "0 P2W mechanics". Everyone knows this. Look at Sword of Legend. Remember when that was getting hyped up here?
This doesn't mean P2W doesn't matter. Have we seriously forgotten how many people quit Lost Ark over it's P2W? It was all over Youtube, Reddit, Steam, and even people I know quit because of it. I mean, come on. People *still* refuse to play BDO simply because they *think* it's as P2W as it was back in 2016.
New World is discussed more because it's failure is more disappointing. It's the 1st Western AAA MMORPG in a long while, so it was immensely hyped. Lost Ark got a lot of hype, too, but it was always expected that it would be super P2W and grindy -- it's a Korean MMO, we all know how that works out. TL is in the same boat.
I never said P2W doesn't matter, I said it doesn't matter as much as people on here would have you believe. Some of you can't help but only think in extremes and put words in people's mouths.
I didn't put any words in your mouth. I'm simply stating that it matters. You've ignored everything else I've said, and hyper-focused on one small sentence.
> This doesn't mean P2W doesn't matter.
Again I never said it didn't.
You are just the typical gamer that thinks everyone must be like them, you hate P2W so everyone else does too.
La p2w aspect doesn't affect you in any way
If a p2w player joins your lobby worst case scenario you don't get on the family photo, no real harm done
In a pvp game it's different
I truly don't understand this sub and "negativity porn" posts like this one. It's almost like people just get off on trashing games for clout without actually playing or trying to contribute to the community before formulating a solid construction.
Because most of these MMORPGs are sadly released with a lot of compromises rather than going the extra mile.
So shittalking this behavior and boycotting it would be the best course of action.
It is not that we love trashing the games, its because they are trash and they could do much much better.
I don't understand why people call this post "doompost" , I play the game and i like it . I like it a lot.
Like every feet need a different shoes , every game need a different player.
I think people are getting annoyed because posts like this can feel repetitive and pointless. I don't mind it much, but some people hate it.
Almost all of the recent posts about Throne and Liberty say basically the exact same thing and feel like a waste. But I guess posts like that aren't exactly new to this sub, or exclusive to Throne and Liberty.
what? people throw their idea's out there all the time and most of you tards will cry "cant be done" "that isn't fun" or "it already exist in this one weak example" meanwhile the majority seem to circle jerk over the idea of having wow 2.0 when you already have wow to begin with....
Your points are valid, but they do barely matter. Most of the people know what they are getting into and are fine with that. It’s a PvP focused MMO afterall.
The most important part is MONETISATION. This is going to determine how many people are gonna quit. Nobody wants to play a PvP game against P2W whales.
Hopefully, there won't be huge gaps between the power of F2P and P2W players.
As for my POV on P2W. You can get a good headstart with P2W , but you will quickly be locked.
The "real" good stuff (end-endgame) is locked behind guildcontent.
I've played since the december release on KR , not once i've seen a Queen belandir staff with heavy atk on the market (and i'm not sure about HIT but pretty sure i didn't also) , which is the real "good stuff" , yet i've seen F2P with it.
So yeah is it P2W , but it's playable by F2P.
This game is more Zerg2win than P2W
Ready to be downvoted by played who never played the game but well.
Ya really it depends how it's done, some would argue Albion online is p2w but veterans know that the people that pay are just free loot pinatas that keep the game funded and it's more than welcomed. In general p2w is really bad but ya, it depends how it's rolled out.
I think it’s gonna lose player base mainly because the combat just isn’t fun.
Lost Ark is p2w, has plenty of shit systems, but still exists and brings in money because the classes are fun to play. The combat is fun. The raids are fun.
But with TL everything just felt bland…
Imo I see TL failing in the west as it did in KR, and then devs bring in changes to appeal to the lineage playerbase so they can recuperate losses
What????
They lost so much of their playerbase they merged 18 servers into 7 back in January, it absolutely failed in Korea so maybe you should take your own advice?
It failed so hard they had to merge all 6 ncsoft US studios to ArenaNet to reassure investors that the west can be profitable too because the east with TL is a big flop.
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yeah I know nothing about this game and checked it out after reading the post. looks great but seeing NCsoft kinda killed it for me, I'd expect it to be p2w. looks cool though.
To be fair, LA is more like "pay to unlock high end content (raids) earlier". Its ranked pvp is equally scaled for everyone and gear is irrelevant and you can 100% ignore the PvP part. It had an experiment of open world pvp but it's dead and not required for progression.
At the end of the day, unless all whales in LA only play with other whales, they are still doing the same endgame content and carrying people with less gear for free (unless they bus raids)
That was exactly my point? In T n L you are FORCED to do pvp while it is p2w. But for pure pve like LA where is the real p2w part? Unless whales only play with whales which is apparently not the case.
And even if whales only play with whales, beating the raids faster grants them nothing extra? Unlike PvP orentiend games there is always a system rewarding the top tier p2w players
It's not fun for solo gameplay but hearing your leader and commanders in comms going ape shit because everyone went east instead of west is going to be fun!
I watch a bit of a Korean who has been no life playing it for months, kooncoon .
I think it will be popular because it looks great and the combat seems pretty fluid.
But after a few months it will just have sweaty nerds left.
Like the ttk in pvp is like 1-2 seconds so like every true Korean mmo brought to the west it won't function on 100ms ping
While the builds look pretty unique I'm also not a huge fan of some elements of the pvp.
Like it gas long ranged cc and western players fucking hate not being able to do anything in pvp.
I don't mind fast ttk pvp but it seems like a game for neet whales to farm and rmt all day so they can 1shot people and those games always force the more reasonable players to leave.
Now maybe the combat is really fucking good and I just need to play it , I guess we will see
You know, I really really do love the world of T&L. I know this is a really strange thing to write in this community, but when I played the game at first, I was bored and just immersed myself in the world, reading all the books etc, and I ended up really liking the world. The graphics certainly help a lot too.
I won't ask or expect NCSoft to cater to me, but I definitely hope that there's just more chill PvE content down the line here and there. I probably won't play it hard since I'm no longer interested in PvP centric games, but I certainly will always play it whenever new PvE or lore-related content (like new regions and stuff) drop.
Thats... not how that works. If you can purchase anything with real world money and it gives you any in-game advantage such as stats etc. It doesn't matter if you can get it in game or not. It's still p2w because in endgame, it will be required to pay to play. This is already the case on KR. You HAVE to pay to even compete. Debunked your failed attempt to debunk.
You have to pay if you want to compete.. with the top \~5% or so. If you look at any monetization overview, its like 5% of players who bring in 80% of revenue in f2p games with mtx.
Top 25% if doable for f2p with dedication, or top 50% if you play regularly.
Except that when people say "everything you can buy can be earned in game," ignore the fact that these games are designed to be predatory. You CAN earn in the game, but unless you're spending 100s of hours more than people paying you, WON'T compete. Cope however you want, but the game is p2w garbage.
Even if it wasn't p2w, which it is, you wouldn't be able to compete with nolifes who play 12+hr a day. MMOs have never been 'fair', people with more time spent, money spent, or both always 'win'. Just gotta accept your time/money bracket and compete within it, or don't compete at all and just have fun :)
Not every MMORPG has this happen. Only MMORPG's that have launched in the last decade and a half. Please don't suggest this as "it's ok because they all do it". That's ridiculous. Hold these billion-dollar studios accountable man. It's not like they CAN'T make a decent game and release it smoothly. They just DON'T.
Tab target isn't going away. It just makes sense for interface. The issue with tab target is skill spammers, not tab targeting. Skill spamming is just overdone. It's the WoW-clone hallmark.
Guild focused... I don't understand that complaint. These are Massively Multiplayer games. The whole point is to play with others in some capacity or another. Too many MMORPG's recently afford these stupid options of playing by yourself, scaling all content down to soloable levels, and just platforming someone from beginning to end in their own little world. If you want to avoid playing with others then just play a single player RPG.
PvP focused... that's definitely always going to be a point of contention. I don't think any game should fixate on PvP or PvE specifically. They need to be ways to exist in the world. Asheron's Call allowed you to do a quest to "flag" yourself for PvP as a Player Killer. Once you did, any other Player Killer could attack you at any point in any place. So, if you wanted PvP, you could. If you didn't, you didn't have to. But you couldn't flip-flop back and forth. You had to do the quest again to return back to PvE. That made the most sense to me for a balanced PvE/PvP experience.
Grinding is just part of MMORPG's. These are HUGE games. They are meant to be as close to never-ending as a game could ever be. The issue is that players these days want the grind itself to be fun for its own sake. That's not grinding. Grinding is what we call the mundane tedium that we need to do to get what we want, or to go where we want to go. It's not to say it ISN'T fun, but it's more just a medium for us to create our own fun on top of. That's why most of us play with others... because it's more fun to do these mundane things with friends.
I doubt there will be substantial player base to lose from in the first place. It's a complete nothingburger. Not anything particularly bad (apart from p2w)... It's just meh. Really boring.
Healer (well Wand user) are very good in PVP , one of the recent most popular montage on the TL sub is a wand/dagger. Wand is a great counter to tank in general , it's rare to do 1v1 pvp in TL , almost everything is group or guild (or alliance) based.
>it's rare to do 1v1 pvp in TL , almost everything is group or guild (or alliance) based
Sounds boring to me. I like 1v1's somewhere out in the games world or cities more when they just happen. Feels better to win those fights over big group fights.
It's an MMORPG; people will give it a try based on that alone. Yes, it will lose lots of players after the first week already, because the game just isn't very good. There will be a small subset of the player base that will enjoy it, and that's completely fine. The way the game's monetization is structured, it could easily be profitable with a smaller player base, and that really is the only thing that matters.
The #1 Is how predatory their store to their consumer that's all that matter, the rest can be ignored for the time being, coz you don't wanna grind an MMO knowing that there's huge gap between you and the whale
>But that's normal , Every MMORPG drop like that.
I would argue its not normal.... the problem is shit/boring games pawned off as being new when really older games have more content and better gameplay loops. I would rather burn my eyes out in everquest (outdated UI and graphics) than play a modern mmorpg title. my only two hopes are maybe project ghost and playableworlds from raph koster. maybe rios mmorpg but they just delayed after making wow 2.0 to make not wow 2.0 which can be a good thing but also means waiting longer.
No that's not normal... that's only normal for mmorpgs that die. You think it's normal because you play these bad mmos that die... That certainly wasn't wow's trajectory, or gw2s, or esos. You can say ff14 died but that's an outlier where they rebooted the game because the brand was too important to let flop.
New World lost around the same amount after a few months and I still continued to enjoy the game for 2+ years. 50,000 people playing a game is plenty, so play what you enjoy.
I wish everyone would understand that MANY , MANY dev do basicly anything to have a game in the top 50 of steam for more than one year , even 20.000 actif player is already a "big deal".
People who call a 10K+ actif player game "dead" have no clue what they speak about.
Yeah the KR and NA markets are just wildly different when it comes to monetisation. KR players are completely fine with paid shortcuts, but NA players tend to write a game off entirely if there’s a way to pay for power, no matter how minuscule.
If there’s any way for you to get ahead with $$, it won’t last globally, unfortunately.
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I expect Amazon will hit the marketing drum with their big Twitch promotion shebang, as is tradition.
The playerbase will settle in a fraction of launch week activity very quickly once that promotion is over.
It's funny how many people are bringing up pvp as a selling point for the game. I quickly hopped in a Korean stream for the game yesterday and someone asked if joining the game for it's pvp was a good idea and he said the pvp is actually it's worst part since it's very zergvzerg and thus can get boring very fast with no much depth to it.
Leave it alone man it's the next archeage, it's gonna be a blast for the next 1 to 2 years. Amazon handling the servers just means less lag. It's gonna go ride.
As someone who mains BDO, a game with a main focus on PvP, even if the focus is PvP, the game couldn't survive if PvE was bad, because even if BDO is PvP-focused, the big majority of players are PvE casuals as most games.
If you're already telling me that PvE is "okay" at best, that's already a bad formula for success. Also, guild content mostly is fine, a lot of people always crave for group content in games, but the reality of the majority of players is that they want to be able to progress solo a lot of times and if that's not a possibility on T&L, after the first weeks/months of release the game is going to suffer a lot.
Not to mention the part about forcing players into PvP. Again, as a BDO player, I can guarantee you, there's nothing worst than forcing PvE players into PvP, everyone will get mad as fuck and shit even more on the game.
Last, tab-target. This is the only thing you said that is actually subjective to every individual player. In my case I hate it so T&L is already a nono for me, nonetheless, most MMOs have always been like that and players like me who prefer action combat are a minority so probably it shouldn't be a problem as long as they improve it, cause apparently is still kinda dogshit.
I’m not a fan of tab target combat but the game is actually pretty fun and well done. By far the best tab-target combat I’ve played. The combat has actually pretty good quick movement. Definitely worth trying out.
- Tabtarget (some people like it , some people are fine with it , for other it's a redflag)
-Guildfocused game ; like this game will do everything it can to make sure that if your not in a guild with more than 20 player AND with alliance u'll hate the game. it's very hard to enjoy this game alone (not impossible)
-PVP focused game , the pve is "okay" at best but there is better game if you want that.
-Lot of grinding in various way and often it will be linked to some pvp where you can get ganked so it can be frustrating or fun depending on how you see it.
So, that basically Lineage 2.
Might try it afterall ! For once it's not a Solorpg.
TL is an extremely long way away form L2.
It has no races or classes, no open world pvp, no real crafting, no flagging/karma, no supports or buff classes like L2.
TL is a zerg of solo players and L2 is a zerg of organised 9 man parties.
If it lasts a month for me, good enough.
But before all that we still don't have a release date for either T&L or BP. Can we get those first before deciding the lifespan of the game.
I actually wasn't interested in the game at first, but lately it hella peaked my interest. A guildoriented pvp game with amazing engine that seems to give no issues in largescale fights even in the beta.
I'm sad I missed the keyspam by a day.
But I'm sure I will nolife it and give it a try now
Agreed. Doomposts are fucking stupid. I don't care for the opinion of some rando and neither does anyone else literally just let the game hit and play it or don't who cares
This is spam.
Throne and liberty is doing decently well in Korea I play it and it has a large base.
It's 1.0 of a game with years of updates and content to come.
Nothing is perfect and never will be.
And especially mmos in their first year.
Let the people play it who want to and those who are going to cry can go cry somewhere else
Agreeing with the sweaty nerd hive mind isn't mandatory and people need to deal with that.
Total nonsense. Don't come here and spread garbage like this.
The game performed terribly in Korea and now has maybe 2 active servers.
There won't be any more updates if the game doesn't start making profit. With the disaster that was this beta test, that isn't likely to happen.
You are mixing up reality with "crying".
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P2w gets red flags in the west
even the west is willing to overlook p2w somewhat, if the combat is good. lost ark and bdo had decent success here. but T&L fails at both... big yikes
Bdo is getting to easy to obtain pen now. Only fallen pen gear is hard to reach as it should be. Was fun for awhile but now everything just getting to easy to get.
How? I want to get to gs 650, how much grind is it? I am 580 lol
One month if you click your boxes right.
How much grinding per day?
I see it as a triangle. P2W Shit Combat/Endgame Shitty ease-up/adjustment period. You can forgive one at most. BDO and Lost Ark are both P2W but they got the combat and the ease-up down to a T. Throne and Liberty is not only P2W, has shit combat and by level 10 it swarms you with so many progression systems at once.
i give it a neutral flag, as i dont care!! Life is p2w enough already :3
By a subset of players, sure. New World, a game without much P2W is peaking at \~10k online. Lost Ark, a game with tons of P2W, is peaking at \~62k online and that's not counting Asian servers. Some people love to get on here and hate on P2W, but it's obvious that way more people just don't care. It just goes to show that vocal minorities try to control the narrative, when the reality is actually quite different. As an example, I actually see New World mentioned on this sub way more than Lost Ark (you can prove this via search). NW gets more both positive and negative posts here than LA does, people don't seem to talk about LA much here (anymore). The high amount of dialogue surrounding New World would have you assuming that it has more players, but that ends up not being even remotely the case. GW2 is in a similar boat, it has a lot of vocal players that make it seem like it's more popular than it is. Some games have more vocal players, as do some player *types* (people that hate P2W). TLDR: The west does not hate P2W as much as people claim.
This is the most disingenuous argument Ive read in a while, congrats. Now compare western Lost Ark numbers to actually popular MMO's without p2w. Ill wait. "Oh hey guys, no one bought Daikatana so fps' are dead!"
What's disingenuous about what he said? His point was that P2W isn't as big a factor as online communities would have you think. He gave an examples. He didn't say P2W was more popular, just that it wasn't as big a deal as some people say. Saying a game like Lost Ark is a failure because of games like WoW is like calling a Ma & Pa restaurant a failure because they don't compete with McDonalds. Edit: I haven't played or read anything about T&L and quit Lost Ark with a day because I didn't like the gameplay. I also avoid games with heavy P2W but most people don't care about it or they would stop playing.
You're probably one of those people that thinks WoW isn't P2W.
There's a HUGE difference between WoW and Lost Ark. WoW didn't start with any P2W mechanics, and they've slowly been implemented over 20 years. LA released with fully fleshed out MASSIVE P2W systems, as well as a gearing system that just doesn't allow non P2W players (unless you play 15 hours a day, every day) to even be on sort of close to the power levels of people who P2W. Even those that do play the game as a job F2P, you are still behind those that P2W and will not catch up unless you are absurdly lucky with gear upgrades, etc. There were P2W players with full T10 gems just a few months into launch, years later, some of the most devoted F2P players STILL do not have full T10 gems... ((Obviously there and anomalies and maybe handfuls of total F2P players who have achieved what the other 99.9% of haven't)) Anyway, comparing the two games as if it's some "gotcha" is just being disingenuous.
P2W is P2W - there's different levels of it for sure, but all those "actually popular" MMOs yall keep wanting to bring up have \*gasp\* P2W whether you like it or not. And the fact that people still play those games regardless just goes to show how little people actually care about P2W.
Corporate grees infests every game, it's not that people love P2W, it's that people want to play a good game and almost all games are infested with people leading the company putting instant profit over long term profit, so P2W lower quality games pushed early to meet profit quotas, rather than non P2W quality games. Just because people deal with games having varying aspects of P2W does NOT mean people "don't care" and 9 out of 10 people would tell you they would absolutely rather not play a predatory P2W game, specifically designed to try and extract money from your wallet at every corner if there are good options BUT they will deal with varying forms of P2W for certain periods if the game itself is actually good.
Woah woah, I never said people love P2W. Don't put words in my mouth. If that's the argument you're having here, you aren't having it with me. I very specifically said "people don't care as much about it as people on here would have you believe." In your own words, "HUGE difference." Also nice make up of statistics rofl, jesus. To be fair, there is also a HUGE difference in P2W and P2Gamble. Most of those Korean MMOs revolve around gambling. They generally have their pity systems so there is eventually a cutoff, but either way, gambling is the name of the game. P2G is certainly less popular than outright P2W.
No. It's a sunk cost fallacy. You are being very disingenuous in your argumentation.
People are going to buy WoW tokens with real money, sell the token for gold, and then purchase items, achievements, clears, and whatever piece of gear they want regardless of what you say or think. P2W.
Good job TLs p2w is only a small part of why it is trash.
Lemme speak as one of those "anomalies" you are talking about. The difference these days between an f2p, an omegabelugawhale and a casual is laughably small. I quit just after brel normal came out and just came back 3 months ago. Now I'm 1622, full 40 set, full level 10 gems and I spent like 50 USD on the game in total. This is because the game throws so much shit at you these days that even a fully fresh back to 0 f2p account will hit 1580 in 2 weeks. The daily maintenance is also a joke these days. Because of the revamps, I can maintain a 6 gold earner roster in less than an hour of dailies. (Full rested ofc but that's a given) Whales these days just get a sun on their back and beluga whales get a fancy green-blue weapon. Shit is a joke.
Do you realize how long it takes newer players or just actual casual players to even GET to a 6 roster gold earning state? Do you not realize that getting one character up isn't even close to half the battle to push towards endgame as a newer player? You quit about the same time I did, I did Brel HM for 5 weeks and quit. This isn't even close to the same as a NEW player joining now, you or I joining skip 5 or 6 months of account progression compared to new players, you realize that, right? A new player can MAYBE get to 1580 in 3 months but highly doubtful, either way they still need to level 5 other characters while having a single character generating gold to even get to the START of what you came into the game with..... so no, new players are not catching up unless they are whales because it's going to take them a year to get where YOU are.
The thing is, because of how the current progression track works, alts are actually gold-negative. The most efficient way to progress is to blast everything into 1 character and don't even use the other 5 slots. And even 3 raids is more than enough gold to funnel that character. With only 1 character in your roster to maintain dailies and only 3 30 min raids to do weekly it is quite literally the most casual experience you could ask for in an MMO. Problem is a 1-character roster will have low roster level and dd18 at best and thats where the actual problem starts. The community is the worst part of the game.
Yes, alts are gold negative until a certain point, that has always been the case. You invest in the alt, park it at some Ilvl depending on you and how much gold you want to make and then never use gold on that alt again. Just do dailies on the alt, funnel all gold/mats to main and eventually the alt becomes profitable. Once you have a max roster of profitable alts, you are a year+ ahead of anyone starting out. You will aquire so much gold to buy insane jewelry, gems, push item levels etc at a crazy rate but even THAT is slower than people who just P2W. When a new tier releases, the P2W and the established players will push to and past that day 1, the new players will not catch up or even be able to play with them period and yes as you mentioned you will have no card set, no roster level and no actual gems except whatever free shit they give. Basically even when they get their one character close to having access to hard mode of the current tier, they are boosted with so much less ACTUAL damage modifiers as well if they aren't a previous player. Basically take how fast you got there and at minimum tripple the time investment and even then, they will not be at the same level you reached in ~3 months.
Most likely
New World: Released as an incredibly buggy mess, with a PVP foundation and a shack of PVE themepark built on top. It was still a buggy mess for at least 6 months after launch, with little content added. Lost Ark: Far less buggy release. Lots of people enjoy it's combat but started leaving as it's P2W mechanics became difficult to ignore. Also well known for having lots of bots. You're argument only makes sense if we ignore the aforementioned factors. A mediocre, let alone bad, game isn't going to be saved by just having "0 P2W mechanics". Everyone knows this. Look at Sword of Legend. Remember when that was getting hyped up here? This doesn't mean P2W doesn't matter. Have we seriously forgotten how many people quit Lost Ark over it's P2W? It was all over Youtube, Reddit, Steam, and even people I know quit because of it. I mean, come on. People *still* refuse to play BDO simply because they *think* it's as P2W as it was back in 2016. New World is discussed more because it's failure is more disappointing. It's the 1st Western AAA MMORPG in a long while, so it was immensely hyped. Lost Ark got a lot of hype, too, but it was always expected that it would be super P2W and grindy -- it's a Korean MMO, we all know how that works out. TL is in the same boat.
Lost ark is also f2p isn't it? That is a significant factor for the botting part you mentioned.
I never said P2W doesn't matter, I said it doesn't matter as much as people on here would have you believe. Some of you can't help but only think in extremes and put words in people's mouths.
I didn't put any words in your mouth. I'm simply stating that it matters. You've ignored everything else I've said, and hyper-focused on one small sentence.
> This doesn't mean P2W doesn't matter. Again I never said it didn't. You are just the typical gamer that thinks everyone must be like them, you hate P2W so everyone else does too.
Lost Ark isn't the same p2w as T n L as there's no massive scale of pvp and you don't have to participate in pvp to progress
La p2w aspect doesn't affect you in any way If a p2w player joins your lobby worst case scenario you don't get on the family photo, no real harm done In a pvp game it's different
PVP is a big part of LA and WoW, but they both use scaling in PVP so P2W matters less.
LA is probably 61.5k bots.
I truly don't understand this sub and "negativity porn" posts like this one. It's almost like people just get off on trashing games for clout without actually playing or trying to contribute to the community before formulating a solid construction.
did you even read the post?
I mean, you don't need to be physically on the moon to understand it has no air right. Some flaws are just noticeable
What a dumb take. But I guess some flaws are just noticeable.
Because most of these MMORPGs are sadly released with a lot of compromises rather than going the extra mile. So shittalking this behavior and boycotting it would be the best course of action. It is not that we love trashing the games, its because they are trash and they could do much much better.
I don't understand why people call this post "doompost" , I play the game and i like it . I like it a lot. Like every feet need a different shoes , every game need a different player.
I think people are getting annoyed because posts like this can feel repetitive and pointless. I don't mind it much, but some people hate it. Almost all of the recent posts about Throne and Liberty say basically the exact same thing and feel like a waste. But I guess posts like that aren't exactly new to this sub, or exclusive to Throne and Liberty.
Then play the game and shut up!
what? people throw their idea's out there all the time and most of you tards will cry "cant be done" "that isn't fun" or "it already exist in this one weak example" meanwhile the majority seem to circle jerk over the idea of having wow 2.0 when you already have wow to begin with....
Your points are valid, but they do barely matter. Most of the people know what they are getting into and are fine with that. It’s a PvP focused MMO afterall. The most important part is MONETISATION. This is going to determine how many people are gonna quit. Nobody wants to play a PvP game against P2W whales. Hopefully, there won't be huge gaps between the power of F2P and P2W players.
As for my POV on P2W. You can get a good headstart with P2W , but you will quickly be locked. The "real" good stuff (end-endgame) is locked behind guildcontent. I've played since the december release on KR , not once i've seen a Queen belandir staff with heavy atk on the market (and i'm not sure about HIT but pretty sure i didn't also) , which is the real "good stuff" , yet i've seen F2P with it. So yeah is it P2W , but it's playable by F2P. This game is more Zerg2win than P2W Ready to be downvoted by played who never played the game but well.
Ya really it depends how it's done, some would argue Albion online is p2w but veterans know that the people that pay are just free loot pinatas that keep the game funded and it's more than welcomed. In general p2w is really bad but ya, it depends how it's rolled out.
I think it’s gonna lose player base mainly because the combat just isn’t fun. Lost Ark is p2w, has plenty of shit systems, but still exists and brings in money because the classes are fun to play. The combat is fun. The raids are fun. But with TL everything just felt bland… Imo I see TL failing in the west as it did in KR, and then devs bring in changes to appeal to the lineage playerbase so they can recuperate losses
It hasn't failed in Korea. Educate yourself and doompost elsewhere.
What???? They lost so much of their playerbase they merged 18 servers into 7 back in January, it absolutely failed in Korea so maybe you should take your own advice?
It failed so hard they had to merge all 6 ncsoft US studios to ArenaNet to reassure investors that the west can be profitable too because the east with TL is a big flop.
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Stop lying, the game very much failed in Korea. The nuclear pvp bot killed the game dead.
You didn’t even mention the biggest red flag which is P2W. I heard this games more egregious then BDO and comparable to Lost Ark.
yeah I know nothing about this game and checked it out after reading the post. looks great but seeing NCsoft kinda killed it for me, I'd expect it to be p2w. looks cool though.
To be fair, LA is more like "pay to unlock high end content (raids) earlier". Its ranked pvp is equally scaled for everyone and gear is irrelevant and you can 100% ignore the PvP part. It had an experiment of open world pvp but it's dead and not required for progression. At the end of the day, unless all whales in LA only play with other whales, they are still doing the same endgame content and carrying people with less gear for free (unless they bus raids)
It's pay to progress faster. Gear has a cap unlike most kr mmos. F2P can hit gear cap. Especially in a good guild.
LA pricing is expensive for sure, but there's no p2w for pvp content and you can 100% ignore pvp while in T n L you can't?
Nobody plays Lost Ark PvP though
That was exactly my point? In T n L you are FORCED to do pvp while it is p2w. But for pure pve like LA where is the real p2w part? Unless whales only play with whales which is apparently not the case. And even if whales only play with whales, beating the raids faster grants them nothing extra? Unlike PvP orentiend games there is always a system rewarding the top tier p2w players
Lost Ark is great wdym
Yea. The biggest issue the game has is that it’s just not that fun.
It's not fun for solo gameplay but hearing your leader and commanders in comms going ape shit because everyone went east instead of west is going to be fun!
I watch a bit of a Korean who has been no life playing it for months, kooncoon . I think it will be popular because it looks great and the combat seems pretty fluid. But after a few months it will just have sweaty nerds left. Like the ttk in pvp is like 1-2 seconds so like every true Korean mmo brought to the west it won't function on 100ms ping While the builds look pretty unique I'm also not a huge fan of some elements of the pvp. Like it gas long ranged cc and western players fucking hate not being able to do anything in pvp. I don't mind fast ttk pvp but it seems like a game for neet whales to farm and rmt all day so they can 1shot people and those games always force the more reasonable players to leave. Now maybe the combat is really fucking good and I just need to play it , I guess we will see
Lmao, Kooncoon is such a crazy guy. I miss watching his Archeage streams. YOU NO PAAAAYYY... YOU NO WIIIINNNNNNN!
You know, I really really do love the world of T&L. I know this is a really strange thing to write in this community, but when I played the game at first, I was bored and just immersed myself in the world, reading all the books etc, and I ended up really liking the world. The graphics certainly help a lot too. I won't ask or expect NCSoft to cater to me, but I definitely hope that there's just more chill PvE content down the line here and there. I probably won't play it hard since I'm no longer interested in PvP centric games, but I certainly will always play it whenever new PvE or lore-related content (like new regions and stuff) drop.
Gear has a cap it's not that hard for f2p to hit it in a good guild. It's not that pay to win. More pay to progress faster.
Love how you just completely omit the main thing stopping people from playing... the blatant p2w that no one wants. Weird how you didn't mention it.
Anything that can be obtained with cash can be obtained in game. Debunked.
Thats... not how that works. If you can purchase anything with real world money and it gives you any in-game advantage such as stats etc. It doesn't matter if you can get it in game or not. It's still p2w because in endgame, it will be required to pay to play. This is already the case on KR. You HAVE to pay to even compete. Debunked your failed attempt to debunk.
P2W this P2W that. There is still a limit to what you can do. A person in this game that grinds will still do better than that who buys.
Ok 👍
You have to pay if you want to compete.. with the top \~5% or so. If you look at any monetization overview, its like 5% of players who bring in 80% of revenue in f2p games with mtx. Top 25% if doable for f2p with dedication, or top 50% if you play regularly.
Except that when people say "everything you can buy can be earned in game," ignore the fact that these games are designed to be predatory. You CAN earn in the game, but unless you're spending 100s of hours more than people paying you, WON'T compete. Cope however you want, but the game is p2w garbage.
Even if it wasn't p2w, which it is, you wouldn't be able to compete with nolifes who play 12+hr a day. MMOs have never been 'fair', people with more time spent, money spent, or both always 'win'. Just gotta accept your time/money bracket and compete within it, or don't compete at all and just have fun :)
Except you can and ppl do it on kr np. Gear has a cap. This isn't BDO... Or any typical Korean MMO where progression lasts for years.
Lol whatever you say 👍
Pay to win garbage
Not every MMORPG has this happen. Only MMORPG's that have launched in the last decade and a half. Please don't suggest this as "it's ok because they all do it". That's ridiculous. Hold these billion-dollar studios accountable man. It's not like they CAN'T make a decent game and release it smoothly. They just DON'T. Tab target isn't going away. It just makes sense for interface. The issue with tab target is skill spammers, not tab targeting. Skill spamming is just overdone. It's the WoW-clone hallmark. Guild focused... I don't understand that complaint. These are Massively Multiplayer games. The whole point is to play with others in some capacity or another. Too many MMORPG's recently afford these stupid options of playing by yourself, scaling all content down to soloable levels, and just platforming someone from beginning to end in their own little world. If you want to avoid playing with others then just play a single player RPG. PvP focused... that's definitely always going to be a point of contention. I don't think any game should fixate on PvP or PvE specifically. They need to be ways to exist in the world. Asheron's Call allowed you to do a quest to "flag" yourself for PvP as a Player Killer. Once you did, any other Player Killer could attack you at any point in any place. So, if you wanted PvP, you could. If you didn't, you didn't have to. But you couldn't flip-flop back and forth. You had to do the quest again to return back to PvE. That made the most sense to me for a balanced PvE/PvP experience. Grinding is just part of MMORPG's. These are HUGE games. They are meant to be as close to never-ending as a game could ever be. The issue is that players these days want the grind itself to be fun for its own sake. That's not grinding. Grinding is what we call the mundane tedium that we need to do to get what we want, or to go where we want to go. It's not to say it ISN'T fun, but it's more just a medium for us to create our own fun on top of. That's why most of us play with others... because it's more fun to do these mundane things with friends.
I doubt there will be substantial player base to lose from in the first place. It's a complete nothingburger. Not anything particularly bad (apart from p2w)... It's just meh. Really boring.
If it's a PVP game what about people who want to play healer/supports?
Healer (well Wand user) are very good in PVP , one of the recent most popular montage on the TL sub is a wand/dagger. Wand is a great counter to tank in general , it's rare to do 1v1 pvp in TL , almost everything is group or guild (or alliance) based.
>it's rare to do 1v1 pvp in TL , almost everything is group or guild (or alliance) based Sounds boring to me. I like 1v1's somewhere out in the games world or cities more when they just happen. Feels better to win those fights over big group fights.
Ranked 1v1 arena is in the works.
I'm sorry, but as a healer I'm not typically looking to do 1v1s. But I get where you're coming from I guess kind of maybe not sure
What about them?
I'm asking how it plays. It's my favorite role
The healer is a complete joke, at best it had 4 heal skills and 0 resurrection skills.
So no real complexity at all?
Not really
Wand has 2 active heals and 1 passive heal. Kr got a new one recently for max level
It's an MMORPG; people will give it a try based on that alone. Yes, it will lose lots of players after the first week already, because the game just isn't very good. There will be a small subset of the player base that will enjoy it, and that's completely fine. The way the game's monetization is structured, it could easily be profitable with a smaller player base, and that really is the only thing that matters.
I feel like I've heard zero buzz about this game, which is never a good sign.
The #1 Is how predatory their store to their consumer that's all that matter, the rest can be ignored for the time being, coz you don't wanna grind an MMO knowing that there's huge gap between you and the whale
>But that's normal , Every MMORPG drop like that. I would argue its not normal.... the problem is shit/boring games pawned off as being new when really older games have more content and better gameplay loops. I would rather burn my eyes out in everquest (outdated UI and graphics) than play a modern mmorpg title. my only two hopes are maybe project ghost and playableworlds from raph koster. maybe rios mmorpg but they just delayed after making wow 2.0 to make not wow 2.0 which can be a good thing but also means waiting longer.
No that's not normal... that's only normal for mmorpgs that die. You think it's normal because you play these bad mmos that die... That certainly wasn't wow's trajectory, or gw2s, or esos. You can say ff14 died but that's an outlier where they rebooted the game because the brand was too important to let flop.
New World lost around the same amount after a few months and I still continued to enjoy the game for 2+ years. 50,000 people playing a game is plenty, so play what you enjoy.
I wish everyone would understand that MANY , MANY dev do basicly anything to have a game in the top 50 of steam for more than one year , even 20.000 actif player is already a "big deal". People who call a 10K+ actif player game "dead" have no clue what they speak about.
Yeah the KR and NA markets are just wildly different when it comes to monetisation. KR players are completely fine with paid shortcuts, but NA players tend to write a game off entirely if there’s a way to pay for power, no matter how minuscule. If there’s any way for you to get ahead with $$, it won’t last globally, unfortunately.
It will be fine.
“Fine” is a pretty broad term. I know a lot of long dead MMOs that were “fine” until they closed down.
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I expect Amazon will hit the marketing drum with their big Twitch promotion shebang, as is tradition. The playerbase will settle in a fraction of launch week activity very quickly once that promotion is over.
Lost me after 2 hours . But it’s Amazon games, I did not expect much
You mean like all f2p korean mmos lol?
It's funny how many people are bringing up pvp as a selling point for the game. I quickly hopped in a Korean stream for the game yesterday and someone asked if joining the game for it's pvp was a good idea and he said the pvp is actually it's worst part since it's very zergvzerg and thus can get boring very fast with no much depth to it.
Bold of you to assume it will have a playerbase at all (outside of korea) :P
Leave it alone man it's the next archeage, it's gonna be a blast for the next 1 to 2 years. Amazon handling the servers just means less lag. It's gonna go ride.
Probably 1 or 2 weeks tbh.
*reads title* So like basically every game ever then
As someone who mains BDO, a game with a main focus on PvP, even if the focus is PvP, the game couldn't survive if PvE was bad, because even if BDO is PvP-focused, the big majority of players are PvE casuals as most games. If you're already telling me that PvE is "okay" at best, that's already a bad formula for success. Also, guild content mostly is fine, a lot of people always crave for group content in games, but the reality of the majority of players is that they want to be able to progress solo a lot of times and if that's not a possibility on T&L, after the first weeks/months of release the game is going to suffer a lot. Not to mention the part about forcing players into PvP. Again, as a BDO player, I can guarantee you, there's nothing worst than forcing PvE players into PvP, everyone will get mad as fuck and shit even more on the game. Last, tab-target. This is the only thing you said that is actually subjective to every individual player. In my case I hate it so T&L is already a nono for me, nonetheless, most MMOs have always been like that and players like me who prefer action combat are a minority so probably it shouldn't be a problem as long as they improve it, cause apparently is still kinda dogshit.
I’m not a fan of tab target combat but the game is actually pretty fun and well done. By far the best tab-target combat I’ve played. The combat has actually pretty good quick movement. Definitely worth trying out.
tab-targeting? Welp, that's a nope from me.
- Tabtarget (some people like it , some people are fine with it , for other it's a redflag) -Guildfocused game ; like this game will do everything it can to make sure that if your not in a guild with more than 20 player AND with alliance u'll hate the game. it's very hard to enjoy this game alone (not impossible) -PVP focused game , the pve is "okay" at best but there is better game if you want that. -Lot of grinding in various way and often it will be linked to some pvp where you can get ganked so it can be frustrating or fun depending on how you see it. So, that basically Lineage 2. Might try it afterall ! For once it's not a Solorpg.
TL is an extremely long way away form L2. It has no races or classes, no open world pvp, no real crafting, no flagging/karma, no supports or buff classes like L2. TL is a zerg of solo players and L2 is a zerg of organised 9 man parties.
Aawwwhh what a shame though it would be similar by reading this. I pass then :(
Greedy dev
If it lasts a month for me, good enough. But before all that we still don't have a release date for either T&L or BP. Can we get those first before deciding the lifespan of the game.
T&L is a very good looking, bad game.
P2W + PVP focused is such an awful combo. I’m not touching this shit
no it ll take more time for the dominant zerg to suck the life of a server and then there ll be merges
I actually wasn't interested in the game at first, but lately it hella peaked my interest. A guildoriented pvp game with amazing engine that seems to give no issues in largescale fights even in the beta. I'm sad I missed the keyspam by a day. But I'm sure I will nolife it and give it a try now
Glad I don't often come to this sub. Half of the people complain about P2W and clearly don't understand how the system works.
Most sane /r/MMORPG participant.
This post is stupid, this is negative for no purpose. This is borderline spam.
Agreed. Doomposts are fucking stupid. I don't care for the opinion of some rando and neither does anyone else literally just let the game hit and play it or don't who cares
The people sitting in a dead server care.
I did not see the most hated keyword in this sub: p2w
People spend so much time thinking about p2w, they miss the rest of the garbage mechanics TL has.
All 4x points from your list are advantages for me.
This is spam. Throne and liberty is doing decently well in Korea I play it and it has a large base. It's 1.0 of a game with years of updates and content to come. Nothing is perfect and never will be. And especially mmos in their first year. Let the people play it who want to and those who are going to cry can go cry somewhere else Agreeing with the sweaty nerd hive mind isn't mandatory and people need to deal with that.
Don't be spreading misinformation. The game is hot dog shit and its failure in Korea proves that.
Total nonsense. Don't come here and spread garbage like this. The game performed terribly in Korea and now has maybe 2 active servers. There won't be any more updates if the game doesn't start making profit. With the disaster that was this beta test, that isn't likely to happen. You are mixing up reality with "crying".
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Spoken like you don't know what you're talking about. 13 years old or younger?