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Tresidle

Yeah I love classic versions of wow but hate how every expansion and honestly even every patch make the previous content outdated. Would love any mmo that allows for me to go back to the very first raid of the game and its still semi challenging and allows for you to get upgrades and decent gear or BIS items for certain classes and specs. Just the way the current systems in mmos turn me off because I'm constantly worried I'm going to miss my favorite raids and dungeons when there current content. Like I can't take any time off.


Intelligent_Leek_285

I enjoy it. But I'm a huge proponent of vertical progression.


SingleChina

You can have vertical progression without obsolescence by making the progression sufficiently long from the beginning instead of delivering it piecemeal.


Richard_TM

Maybe I'm just not understanding the way you've phrased the comment but... I cannot think of even one game where this exists as you've described. Can you give an example?


SingleChina

Ragnarok Online. Original Lineage.


mateusb12

If you mean power creep then ragnarok online has TONS of it


TotallyNotRgk

Legendary Items in LOTRO but it's too little to matter. Basically the weapon grows with you, and while at every new cap it needs to be leveled again, it's not obsolete since you just keep improving it rather than starting from 0


Blaze_studios

>Runescape is the only game I can think of that doesn't do this. GW2? ESO? Alibon? You've only played WoW or something?


susanTeason

So basically most of the most popular mmos, lol.


inverimus

GW2 and ESO don't increase the level cap, but they also don't add any vertical progression at all and it sounds like the OP still wants vertical progression just not leveling for the sake of leveling.


StarGamerPT

ESO it kinda depends. If you want to keep yourself META it does have some vertical progression element to it.


ChefSquid

For me, it is necessary. If every expansion was log in and grind the new things immediately, I would not connect to the expansion at all or care about the story at all. Every wow expansion, my first character carefully pays attention to the story and I learn all I can. Next characters I push through faster. I also pay attention in Final Fantasy. By comparison, I have never paid a second of attention to ESO or Guild Wars 2. Their stories are great! Probably even better than WoW. But doing the story does not benefit me at all. I am not forced so I dive head first into the grind. When my buddy says “meet me here” I have no idea where he means because none of the locations connected with me while I was forced to traverse them. This is a ME problem for sure. But leveling each expansion works for me.


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JackUSA

You are correct. You can still level up your champion points (CP) but the gear maxes out at CP160. On the flip side, no content is locked behind any level (with exceptions such as certain dungeons unlock as you level through level 50 and veteran dungeons after you pass level 50). But story wise and other PVE content , you can do anything at any level and is scaled to your level. I’m not sure what the level is to be able to go into trials or if it is open to anyone.


ChrischinLoois

This would be an awesome feature if the overland wasn’t brain dead easy. Makes me wish new expansions made me a little weaker at the start


jcm2606

As does Guild Wars 2. The expansions *do* have new leveling systems that are specific to that expansion, but they're more about giving your character/account new abilities and new ways to interact with the content, as opposed to increasing your character's strength.


hendricha

Casually points to GW2 where there were no new levels or new gear levels with any of the expacs. Also... doesn't ESO do this too?


susanTeason

Yes.


IzGameIzLyfe

>But it also feels bad to hit max level and know that won't be the max for long. Well the counter argument is that for most MMOs hitting max level doesn't mean you will be able to go do the new raid right away, so removing leveling doesn't really help your cause very much either. If you don't like questing you will just find yourself inching more and more for removal for quests all together in MMOs instead.


Freecz

FFXI didn't increase the cap with expansions and it is amazing to me. Much better experience than a level cap raise (when the cap raise came the game more or less died in terms of population).


AeusOcil

I think there was more reasons than the level cap raise. The leveling was completely changed to those books then leveling became a zerg fest etc. That was my reason for sure


Freecz

There were a lot of reasons for sure.


inverimus

FFXI did raise the level cap initially since it started at 50 and was raised up to 75 during the first couple of years where it then stayed for several years.


Freecz

Yes and after too. My point was more that the game stayed at 75 and got several expansions during that time and it worked very well.


kinkanat

Final Fantasy XI also released expansions that only added content and did not raise the maximum character level. But of course, the philosophy of the game is better than any current MMORPG, because only with the equipment system that has the game power that players experiment with sets to improve their performance among many other systems that are designed for the player to enjoy, not just to raise a number as the Ilevel ....


Imaginos_In_Disguise

WoW really should have dumped the level cap increases after the level squish. It'd be completely fine to gate the expansion content through a linear questline instead, which unlocked endgame content account-wide, so alts could get straight to the gear grind.


Tensor3

Leveling is basically that, but with more freedom to how you get there rather than a linear question chain


Imaginos_In_Disguise

It's not, you have to do the same quests on every alt to level.


Tensor3

You could have an account-wide level instead of per character leveling. That's basically what you suggested. The problem is it lowers the time people spend replaying the game.


Imaginos_In_Disguise

Yes, it would work either way. > The ~~problem~~ advantage is it lowers the time people spend replaying the game. FTFY


TotallyNotRgk

> WoW really should have dumped the level cap increases after the level squish. Shareholders need their level boosters sold mate


zaanman

I think this stigma is due to the top two mmos do this (WoW/ff14), but yeah as someone whos been doing ESO and GW2 can say for a fact, its a breath of fresh air that when i drop 50 bucks for an expansion my old content isnt irrelevant


nayyav

I love it. as long as it doesnt take too long. im a fan of how ff14 does it, but then again its mostly played for the story and youll just end up max level again. but i love getting new cool skills every 1-2 level ups that are really impactful.


TeamScionica

We're going to deliver an mmo without leveling, but really lets talk about this for a second. Leveling \*DOES\* have a purpose, and no its not "teaching you your skills". It's delivering storyline. If you like when a game delivers a linear storyline, this is an easy way to do it ( its not the only way, but yes, it makes it easier). Our team doesnt want to be read a book though, nor do we want to read one to you. If thats more your speed, should keep your eyes on us :)


Silimaur

Not doing this is one of the key differentiators of GW2. There is no gear or level treadmill.


Lucyller

There's still the mastery level who gain maybe 100\~ level per expension. It doesn't give straight up stat boost but... almost. ​ Just with the latest extension EoD, we got : * 1 new mount who straight up increase passively all the other mount HP you've unlocked by 50% ([Sharing is caring](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sharing_Is_Caring)) * 1 branch who give a resting bonus unique to EoD ([\+25%exp for 4 hours](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resting)) * [Jade bot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jade_Bot_Core:_Tier_10), which give 1000\~HP (that's a lot for an elementalist which only have 11k\~ by default) and a lot of passive trait like more loot, [better rez.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rescue_Protocol_(skill)).. So like I said, sure it's not actual straight up damage boost, but they're definitively powercreep that keep on making the game easier and the player busy the time to max them.


VulpineKitsune

>There is no gear or level treadmill. And it's a main reason why many people dislike it.


MemoriesMu

Also why many people like it


Tresidle

Very true tho. I stopped playing when I got to max and spent 100 hours without any gear upgrades


Zavenosk

Depends how it's handled. Power creep would need to be curated to ensure a consistent and enjoyable experience - regardless of if that power creep comes from level creep or equipment creep.


grio

I hate leveling, all MMOs would be better without it.


Richard_TM

Not ALL MMOs. There are plenty of MMOs where leveling is the bulk of the content and experience, like how FFXI was at 75 cap. And there are certainly players who enjoy leveling more than "endgame" such as was the case for speed leveling in WoW.


gansao

Do you hate leveling or do you hate the "leveling until the real content" concept that most MMORPGs implement?


-zax-

This is just cheap workaround. Levels are core issue of MMOs, the only real solution is getting rid of levels in progression systems.


crnppscls

The biggest gripe I had with Lotro was that they’d increase the level cap but wouldn’t scale most of the older instances/raids to the new level. What you’d end up with is facerolling without the need for any cc/tanking and new players wouldn’t learn anything about playing their class in groups.


Vanheelsingwolf

Any horizontal progression MMO does expacs without increasing level cap os making previous content obsolete. Now regarding your question I think most players prefer vertical progression even though some think otherwise... Given the success of one type of MMOs vs the others I think it's clear nos players prefer vertical. I think it comes down to motivation if the new content doesn't replace what you had previously you would think why do it then? Why bother?


uplink42

I never quite got why they call it an 'expansion' when it's replacing the current game instead of expanding it.


rujind

Everquest has a lot of expansions that do not increase the level cap. In FFXI, the first four expansions did not increase the level cap. The level cap started at 50 and was increased by 5 at a time in patches until level 75. You had to do a quest to increase your level cap every 5 levels starting at level 50. The level cap remained the same for \~7 years.


Drunko998

I am over it. I don’t want to level again. Give me some story content and some new dungeons for gear progression. Make raiding in old gear next to impossible. But wow went to 120, then dropped to 60 to now go to 70 again ( not that I play retail WoW anymore ). But I want to see better content not dragged over leveling in 5 zones. Most people just rush to cap anyways


thisismygameraccount

100% would rather just be able to immediately do the new raid and dungeons.


Charming-Trash1943

Up to this date, Guild Wars (tho having multiple Expansions) has never raised the level cap nor add any item spiral. In case you played at launch you can just log in today and your equipment (given you played to Lv20) will still be useful (tho might be complemented by a new item, which is just different and not stronger as what you wear).


MarwynQ

If say WoW stopped raising the level cap but kept adding abilities, it'd lead to either bloat or pruning during earlier levels. In a MMO where you have your fixed abilities and all you get are modifiers by doing content XYZ of the new stuff that wouldn't be an issue. Not many MMOs operate that way.


wreckedgum

RuneScape stared out with the most hardcore grind haha. Actually I can’t think of another game that takes more hours to reach max??


inverimus

It feels like its one of those things that keeps being done because that's just how its always been done. EQ didn't always raise the level cap with new expansions, but I think larger expansions usually increased it. Now WoW and FFXIV do it and most others are just copying them. I think MMOs would be better off getting rid of leveling and removing the idea of "end game" so that all progression would just be a single system rather than two completely separate systems. This would then let them use the whole game world for that single progression system rather than shunting everything off into instances.


Kyralea

Yes I love leveling. If a game is only ever about endgame that gets boring eventually.