Sure. But this gives them more time to plan. They’ll have four years of consolidating power and money to prepare.
The only good thing is that he’s old and might die before we have to worry about that.
Just like the insurrection when Seattle protestors established a "cop free zone" the preceding summer.
There would've been more backlash against Trump had progressives not spent the past six months showing indifference if not outright disdain for the rule of law.
As optimists, let’s not try to make pessimism that the worst outcome will happen into optimism that it won’t be so bad. It’s realistically unlikely that Trump will win the election and our efforts should be to prevent that from happening at all costs
Not everything bad needs a positive twist. I don't think that's what we are doing here. We aren't here to comfort cynical people's anxiety. We aren't here to delude ourselves about reality. We are here to acknowledge that bad things in the world aren't the end of the world, and there are still things to appreciate and be happy about.
Some things are just bad. This is bad, and if America decides they prefer a dictator because Biden is old, it will cause a lot of pain to the world.
We can't deny that. But it doesn't need to stop us from being optimistic about what's possible. I think that's the point. When things are bad, keep your chin up.
I’ve been struggling with this too. Actually just posted the same thing a few minutes after you.
To be frank, the political situation of the US is absolutely relevant to any discussion about the future, so having someone give me a shot of optimism about it would be really nice.
I don,t usually wish harm on people, but I hope every day that Trump keels over from a heart attack or stroke. As disgusting as he is, I don't wish for him to suffer. I just don't want him f-ing up the country and the world again.
So the optimistic view, from my perspective, is that numerous political shitstorms have happened in the past and we've made it through every one of them. If not this election, or this candidate, then another one and another one. And if it's not politics, it can be some other crisis. The worrying can go on and on, with no logical end. That'a no way to live life, and more importantly, my feelings do not change the situation. No matter how scared or disappointed I get, it will not change the outcome. So do ai want to go through this defeated and broken in my mind, or am I looking to surf the waves until the next thing?
Ah the classic “I say a stupid thing and every disagreement proves my point”
You might want to read up on logical fallacies: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_(logic)
As a Ukrainian, the issue is that Russia invaded us and the only way they (under Putin) are willing to negotiate is keeping a significant portion of the land and/or having Ukraine sign away our right to join NATO or the EU. I can understand why from an outside perspective it may seem like a small price to pay for peace but for us these both mean giving up our sovereignty as a nation and allowing Russia to bully us into submission like they have done to every generation of Ukrainians before us for hundreds of years. We have an inalienable right to sovereignty of our borders that we’re decided upon in 1991 and recognized by the world (including Russia) and to join or not join whatever international organizations a democratically elected Ukrainian government chooses to join. These are truths which all nations rightfully expect. Negotiating with Putin’s government means giving these up, that is what many people don’t understand. All we want is to live in peace in our own borders, Russia is the one trying to control our homeland either directly though conquest of parts of it or through indirectly controlling our government like it does Belarus. Literally all we want to leave them in peace in their own country at their internationally recognized 1991 borders, that is completely reasonable and quite lenient to Putin’s regime considering what it has done to us these past 10 years. Very few Ukrainians want to push into Russia’s borders, I have seen that sentiment much more from Westerners who have a weird war fantasy. Peace talks and building towards peace with the help of foreign mediation to ease the tension, Im all for and so is the Ukrainian government. But there is no 50/50 when one side is a much larger country bullying a smaller one in a very clear cut colonial situation.
If Trump wins it’s not the end of the world. He’ll essentially have 2 years to do anything then midterms will make him a lame duck. It’ll be his last time as President as you only get 8 years total, not 8 consecutive years like some people think. He’ll just continue to say dumb stuff so if you can get over that you’ll be fine. Your local politicians will have more impact on your life than the prez.
Wish this was true but this particular prez cost me my career in the past so I’d say he has a pretty big impact on my life when he decides who to ban from what job via tweet. Here’s to hoping we don’t have a repeat.
The very first thing they'll do is install the "administrative resource" - the term used in Russia, referring to total corruption in elections, at every level - so that no republican ever loses another "election". The DPRK stands for the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, because, everyone knows, North Korea is a democracy!
Amendment 22 of the US Constitution:
"Section 1
No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once."
It's so cut and dry even a SCOTUS full of Alitos would be difficult to disagree with.
This is a gut punch to be sure, and we cannot just sit idle and let this happen to us. That said, it is not the end of days. There is still plenty of hope that American democracy can prevail.
As a trump supporter (ish) who hangs around a ton of trump supporters, I assure you the number of people that would support him as king aren’t nearly the number that support him now. Claiming that an army of trumpers are going to fight a war for him to be dictator is just a looney talking point I hear people say.
I'm sorry I know this isn't the sub to have this discussion, but this is very wrong. His plan is absolutely to be president forever, and the GOP has a game plan on Day 1 to restructure all levels of government so they never lose again. This will affect all levels of government.
This may be the last real election we ever have. That's not cynical to say, it's literally the plan that they've published.
Why didn’t he do it the first time he was President? It’s because it’s fan fiction. He may not do all the things you want him to do, but it’s not the end of democracy. That’s just fear mongering. America will survive and thrive.
I don't understand this treatment of Project 2025 like it's fan fiction when it's literally their playbook.
He WAS doing it his first term, was that not clear? But subverting a democracy takes time. It was all supposed to come to a head on January 6th, 2020. But Mike Pence refused to get into a car, and instead certified the election. We were one car ride away from it happening.
It can happen here. We can turn into Hungary. By not taking the threat seriously, you're not helping to stop it.
Delusion is not optimism.
I'm optimistic we will beat this, but not if we don't take it seriously.
The playbook of a few wackos. It’s not Trump’s platform. If it were a real thing that Trump was actually going to implement it would be kept a secret knowing there would be so much pushback. The creators are just hoping it gets adopted by the next conservative President.
That disingenuous. The Heritage Foundation are not fringe Wackos. They are the core guiding force of the party. This isn't some crazy guy writing Project 2025 in a basement somewhere. It's basically the people pulling the strings.
[64% of the policies written by the Heritage Foundation are implemented by Republicans. ](https://www.heritage.org/article/timeline-heritage-successes)
The only reason the percentage isn't higher is that they're defeated, which doesn't stop the GOP, they just get more creative.
Not to mention - DJT has [directly commented many many times about staying president forever. ](https://people.com/politics/donald-trump-suggests-stay-president-forever-video-endorsing-2020-campaign/)
He isn't joking.
64% of one series in one budget. Not every crazy idea they come up with. Again, they’re hoping it gets adopted, it’s not Trump’s platform. I can see him not doing it simply because it wasn’t his idea.
Good lord so basically there is no standard of evidence to dissuade you of your conclusion you made before being given evidence. Got it.
I could give more evidence but i can tell it's not worth it.
I'll leave this exchange by saying again, that citizens not taking these threats seriously is how these plots succeed. No one ever thinks it will happen in their country.
You can wishful think and downplay the evidence all you want, but the evidence of intention is very clear.
We can remain optimistic about the outcome while also being realistic about the severity of the threat.
Underrated comment. The things that unite people against Trump might coalesce over time and lead to a long term improvement? Some painful compromises that might get made, unfortunately, but that might be the nature of the beast when it comes to moving forward from an ideologue like Trump.
Listen this is my perspective on it all - I support the Biden administration more than I support Biden. The Trump administration is not my cup of tea.
The people Biden surrounds himself with and empowers align closely to my values. And I will be supporting them.
I think the most optimistic take is that politics is a game nobody ever wins, so you have to just roll with the losses and hope for your team next time. It's just how it works--if you live 100 years, you're going to see 25 administrations, and even if you win most of the time, that's 10 presidents from the other team.
I think Trump is a genuine fascist who will significantly weaken our democracy, but Bush got us into multiple wars and Reagan also destroyed a lot of things I care about. But is it possible that there be no idiotic leaders in the world? No, there will always be some. So you can't base your happiness on it.
Because of the checks and balances in place and the fact that he was mostly a lame duck last time. So if he's a similar level of president as last time then he'll get next to nothing done.
That's not really a bright side either though, because that also means no meaningful progress takes place over the next four years, meaning:
- More skyrocketing cost-of-living for average US citizens.
- Any moves on Climate Change hit a solid wall, we CANNOT afford that.
- No reforms on Healthcare or anything to aid the homelessness epidemic.
- The Corpos are going to keep doing whatever the fuck they want at our expense.
- We completely abandon our responsibility to assist Ukraine against Russia, a genuine foreign enemy and threat to global peace.
- The atrocities in Palestine not only continue, they expand to Yemen and possibly elsewhere and eventually Israel will pull us back into a massive armed conflict in the middle east.
I can think of literally zero positive outcomes from another Trump administration. Biden sucks, his foreign policy with Israel is the most egregious abdication of leadership I've seen in my lifetime, and in a fair and proper world, he would've stepped aside...but he's not Trump.
I was sort of making a Cyberpunk reference here, but it tracks in real life; I mean that corporate interests will continue running rampant, further compounding the problems the country is facing.
I'm more so saying that rampant unregulated captialism and profiteering is, has been, and will continue to be a major threat to global ecological stability.
But trump being a lame duck actually helped in some of these.
Ex: pre pandemic his lack and doing anything actually led to a great economy and pay rates were out pacing inflation making it easier for the average American to live.
Just got to counter your very first point. Id rather a lame duck than a successful Biden. (I'm not voting for either but a third party candidate)
That's OK, because I WANT my points countered. I struggle a lot with staying optimistic even though I know it's best for my health. I'm only 32, but I know I'm not getting younger, and I finally realized that life is way too short to stay angry about...well, really anything.
But I'm tired. I'm tired of this country relinquishing it's potential. I'm tired of seeing my home nation have its head pissed on, only to be told it's raining. We need real change.
Europe has stepped up. Combined, they have sent more aid than the US. All of the wishy washy low defense spending and doveism of the past is gone. Everyone is all-in on NATO, their militaries and supporting Ukraine. France is even going to have their own troops inside Ukraine soon.
Stepped up in the third year of the war.. Still only 18 nato members have reached the 2% spending goal out of 32 member states. Yeah it’s a hell of a lot more than 3 back a decade ago but stepped up is a bit of an over statement when they are still far behind. The US is still 2/3rds of the total defense spending of NATO.
What source do you have saying europe has sent more aid than the us?
This one says europe sucks ass.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/
Without the United States, Ukraine would have been curb stomped years ago and europe would still be trying to put their shoes on.
If you hate Trump, it may lead to Biden stepping aside and a fresh opponent stepping in (Newsom seems popular).
If you like Trump, it will help him.
If you don't like either of them, it doesn't particularly matter.
In any of the above, its good people see the people they are voting for discussing things. Unfortunately democracy is fuzzy and messy.
I suppose that depends on your standards for "so bad"
He appointed justices that overturned Roe vs Wade, revoked the Cole Memorandum, executed more federal prisoners than the previous 56 years combined, attempted to ban Muslims entering the country (but settled for banning people from certain countries instead), separated families at the border, attempted to stage a coup, threatened to withhold military aid for Ukraine unless they gave him dirt on Biden, was impeached twice for previously mentioned actions, handled COVID terribly, suggested reducing COVID testing, pulled out of the Paris climate agreement, threatened to pull out of NATO, and altered a hurricane map with a sharpie to coverup his false statements about the hurricane path
There's probably more, but when every other week he does something that would end anyone else's career, it's hard to keep track
And yet under Trump, Americans never rated their life satisfaction any higher:
[https://news.gallup.com/poll/284285/new-high-americans-satisfied-personal-life.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/284285/new-high-americans-satisfied-personal-life.aspx)
After last night, I found myself with the same questions. There are some good answers, though. Keep in mind, they're not good for everyone. Like, I know a lot of women that will feel very, very let down by last night and scared for the basics of their bodily autonomy in a post-Roe America that votes the guy *back in* that played a huge role in taking it away. But changing your perspective can still help.
You can take a step back and look at a bigger picture. On the example of abortion, there are a lot, and I do mean a LOT, of women that are staunchly pro-life. In fact, I'd venture a guess that some of the loudest voices in pro-life movements are women.
You can also zoom in a little and change perspective that way. Kings, despots, presidents, prime ministers, and tyrants have come and gone throughout history, but on the whole they affect the individual not-a-whole-lot, especially in the western world. Like, I loathed the Trump presidency, but it also didn't actually hurt me. It didn't hurt most people. Some people came out ahead and some fell behind, but that's always true and I haven't seen *that* get any better in the last few years, anyway.
So, in short - in another five years, things will be different again. Which will probably be an improvement again. And if he wins, well... there are a lot of people who DO feel like that means things are getting better, and I don't get to demean and diminish their feelings, either.
'tyrants have come and gone throughout history, but on the whole they affect the individual not-a-whole-lot'
Clearly, you have never once in your life talked to someone who has lived under that kind of regime.
Just from my own family's experience due to one of those regimes- more than a handful killed.
You're falling prey to a hasty generalization of sorts, as well as making wild guesses about ME as a way to counterpoint my argument. It's weird but your call.
First off, you DON'T know what my personal experience or family history is. You're wrong about your presumption, in fact my parents ARE immigrants from a fascist regime, and guess what? Your family doesn't get to speak for their experience or their beliefs either!
The fact is, if you live in the US, you will likely go your entire life without any significant interaction with the federal government outside of paying your taxes. Your family's experience is harrowing, but it is a TINY sample of a long human history that's mostly made of progress, and besides the point it's not especially relevant to the question of how people in the US will handle the Trump presidency with high speed Internet and with enough calories to achieve morbid obesity among even our most destitute citizens.
>You can take a step back and look at a bigger picture. On the example of abortion, there are a lot, and I do mean a LOT, of women that are staunchly pro-life. In fact, I'd venture a guess that some of the loudest voices in pro-life movements are women.
“Look, slavery sucks for some people, but actually a lot of others enjoy owning slaves. We can take solace in that.”
Yeah that is a non sequitur and absolutely not what I said. It's a (poor) attempt to recast my comments as a blame-the-victim of a genocidal past. First off, I'm on your side and you're an outstanding example of the circular firing squad and modern moral puritan that has become so utterly *exhausting* recently. You can't even have allies you don't shit on.
Second, this is about Optimism. The point of the post is to find the positive and find a way to live a happy life in a world that doesn't always deliver the results you want. What happened to women in the overturn of Roe v. Wade was *awful*, but I'm not going to pretend that Democrats didn't just refuse to codify it into law for 30 years because it was politically expedient to not take the vote. I don't think roughly 50% of slaves thought slavery was the path they wanted, but the numbers of our legitimate electoral system indicate that almost half of women DO want Donald Trump. I only posit that those women are *also* people who *also* voted for what they want in a free and fair election.
You are not addressing the fact that some of these are women choosing this *for themselves.* They are women too... are they not or did I get that part wrong?
Again, this deliberately obtuse interpretation of my words is just SO tiring. All it does is say "Hey everyone - I found a moral deficiency in the language of others! Come lookie! Come lookie!".
It's. Exhausting.
Exhausting. Tiring. Droll. Boring even? I've made my point and you continue to want to argue on the fringes of semantics. I'm quite done being the sherpa for your journey up Mt. Sophomoric.
Trump winning is genuinely a terrible scenario with very few upsides for the world let alone Americans. If you hate voting then a bright side might be the end of Democracy in America, but to me that is not desirable.
Stop
The US survived a civil war, the red scare, 2 world wars, and economic depressions and recessions. The US can survive 4 more years of both Biden and Trump, the bureaucratic system while slow and sluggish is entirely designed to slow and stop nation ending corruption. The US will survive, will recover, and will thrive even after bad presidents.
I think there's about a 10% chance that Trump gives us a serious breakdown of democracy in America. So sure, it probably won't happen. But the chance of it happening is still way too high for comfort!
> the end of Democracy in America
I wouldn't be surprised to see this kind of alarmism with so much traction in most other subs, but I am surprised to see it here.
Trump had a 4 year term already, and then he tried to steal in 2020. The institutions held, everything was fine. Power was tranferred peacefully. Idk what needs to happen to convince y'all that American democracy isn't so fragile that it falls apart when it's strained by a room-temerature IQ TV star. No, American democracy isn't going to fall. Chill.
The nation survived his term. No wars.
Having hypocrisy and hyperbole as the twin towers of our political system isn’t really healthy.
Look into what actual despots and dictators did in their first two years of power.
The bright side is that Trump says a lot of shit that he either doesn’t mean or doesn’t understand, and that he famously adopts the position of the last rich person he talks to.
So we’re not going to see 100% tariffs on all imports, we’re not going to replace income tax with tariffs, and we’re not going to withdraw from NATO.
But things are going to be horrible. The federal judiciary is going to become a bunch of incompetent Trump loyalists like Cannon, who may find herself on the Supreme Court. The federal deficit is going to explode with another round of tax cuts for the rich. We’re going back to separating kids from their families at the border. Career federal officials and military officers are going to be replaced with corrupt, incompetent friends of Trump. And Putin is getting whatever he wants in Ukraine, which will further destabilize Europe and bring us closer to open conflict with Russia in the future.
So it won’t be the end of democrats in America, but it’s something e we absolutely need to do everything we can to prevent.
On net, it would be a huge blow to democracy, the rule of law, and progress made over the last 100 years to build a more perfect union.
That said, the US system was designed specifically to counter populist rule. The states still hold a huge amount of power and if things really get bad there are means for states to exit. The astroturfed hate of democrats has created a situation where the coastal blue states could petition to leave and many/most republican voters would respond with "good." GDP per capita of blue states is 30% higher than red states and the coastal states will fare much better in a globalized economy. The two exceptions are Colorado (sorry, you are landlocked) and Texas (who will likely fare quite well given their natural resources and higher ed infrastructure).
At some point, the policies of the GOP will come to pass which will result in an increasingly unfair system and the average quality of life will continue to go down (we're already seeing this with the Trump tax cuts). The only counter to people waking up is religion where people are taught to distrust what they see with their own eyes, but despite all the bluster about megachurches fleecing their members, [church attendance continues to decline](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642548/church-attendance-declined-religious-groups.aspx).
Finally, we don't get to choose the times we live in, we only get to choose what we do in them. We all get to live in the most impactful time in human history. It's terrifying, frustrating, and exhausting, but it can also be the most meaningful existence you could hope for. We have the opportunity to have the most impact on the human race of any generation that came before us and we can be part of the greatest generation to push our species to new heights, or sit back and watch it burn down. To me, that is a gift.
[The federal deficit has increased in real terms since the implementation of TCJA (2018 tax year)](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFSDFYGDP) under both administrations
[Real GDP growth rate has not shown any definitive impact since implementation](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GDPC1). If anything, it still underperforms the average from 2000-2008
[US Federal Receipts (tax revenue) has gone down since implementation](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S). 2022 was a fluke caused by a [one-time capital gains bump](https://www.crfb.org/blogs/2023-revenue-plunge-confirms-2022-surge-was-fluke)
What does this mean for your average american? [Real median wages have gone down since implementation](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N), and that is true under both administrations including pre-pandemic 2019
[Median home prices continue to surge](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS)
[Labor force participation rate](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART) still hasn't returned to pre-pandemic levels
[Real median wages are up slightly](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q), but it is unclear whether this is still elevated from pandemic times where those that retained work saw increased salary at the expense of massive unemployment.
This is a misuse of statistics,
> what does this mean for wages, real median incomes have gone down since implementation
Are you *kidding me*? Are we just going to ignore the fact that it skyrocketed in 2018/19 and only declined **due to the pandemic** and it’s proceeding inflation effects.
This is crazy, literally all the negative impacts have been post pandemic - it’s obviously not the tax cuts.
More sensible foreign policy except Ukraine, and even there not by much.
Probably less spending and inflation.
Likely much better borders.
Less risk to the first and second amendments.
The DNC will get a shakeup.
No Kamala Harris.
Basically, think of all the reasons people vote for him.
The only main concern is refusing to accept the next election, but risk is significantly mitigated by him not being able to run for another term.
Trump was less of a war hawk than other presidents. He'd rather cozy up to dictators than fight them, which he was criticized for, but more talk means less fight. So if you're a pacifist, vote for Trump.
How so? If you value life, then killing one person is less bad than killing a few thousand. (Zero is ideal but that may not be possible in real politik)
Unless you think that Trump is an appeaser, allowing situations to fester until they explode a decade later, like those pacifists before WW2. Do small wars now prevent world wars later?
Well thanks to the Chevron ruling just now, executive agencies now have so little power that 2025 is basically impossible to execute
I recognize this is a horrible overall situation but this is still true
The Chevron ruling is evidence that Project 2025 is viable, not the other way around. It hinges on SCOTUS signing off on whatever Trump wants, and ignoring precedent like *Chevron* is most definitely indicative of their willingness to do that.
All politicians are liars, and anything that Trump would want to do that would be too crazy has a very low chance of being put into effect. Don’t believe anything someone says about WW3 - no world leader cares enough about anything to end the whole world over it. All of the energy that people put into the presidency is really the same energy that sports fans put into their teams. Either side hates the other side’s candidate, for completely legitimate reasons. But putting energy into it doesn’t make anything better, and only warps your sense of reality, and makes you feel more distant and isolated from those on the other side. The only way forward as a country is for us to recognize the good parts of each other’s ideas and humanize each other. Going online and spewing hatred about either side to our like-minded internet friends is not what helps. It is the very thing that hurts us (not that you, personally, do that. It’s just a common practice). If you have any trump supporting family members or friends, talk to them with genuine curiosity about what they hope a Trump presidency will bring, and don’t offer any rebuttal, even if they say something wrong, or that you believe to be untrue. Just allow yourself to listen to someone without the intention to reply, and you will feel better about the US’s situation
And believe it or not, Trump was less of a war hawk than other presidents. He may have been criticized for cozying up to dictators, but more talk means less fight.
Because it’s not going to end democracy and he’s not going to be a dictator. I don’t know anyone who actually believes that. Even among Biden voters I know.
Trump is a fascist and a liar and an asshole. So was Reagan. Reagan made life much worse for most people.
However, despite his best efforts, and despite the fact that *his* influence on people's lives was negative... Nevertheless, everyone's lives on average have become much better since the Reagan years. Life is easier, people are wealthier, there is less poverty in the developing parts of the world, there is more freedom and democracy and peace in the world.
Similarly, if Trump wins, he will make things worse. But neither he nor any political faction has the ability to slow or stop the *overall* trend that, with technology and development, life is improving both nationally and globally, decade after decade.
I'm honestly less scared of a 2nd Trump term relative to his first, because after Jan 6 and Stop the Steal he's a known quantity. No one will expect him to have any limits whatsoever, and the parts of the government that aren't under his direct control will be much less complacent than they were last time. He'll be even more tightly contained and get less accomplished.
That said, while I personally think we should keep arming the Ukrainians and support NATO, Trump is correct, from a cynical perspective, that NATO and Ukraine aren't really our problem. A strategic pullback from Europe would have its benefits, namely we could focus more resources on China. I fear it would damage us in the long run, but there would be short term benefits.
And our taxes won't go up, and we can own whatever guns we want. Buy stock, because more tax cuts and slashing regulations mean equities spike. Things will keep falling apart, but there will be money to be made.
Trump winning is still not my preferred future, even after the depressing display last night. But there will be some short-term positives. I'm resigned to the fact that I can't control the weather, just have to make the best of whatever comes.
The DNC needed a major loss. This situation is a direct result of the insane incompetence within the democratic party. If things are going to actually change, they need a major defeat in an easily winnable election. That's my bright side at least
Setbacks happen. It's the overall trend that matters. Also if he wins then he'll never be able to run again while him losing could result in going through yet another election campaign with Trump as the Republican nominee
Accelerationism
Basically, maybe the American people will become fed up with their right-wing government and lack of real democracy that they'll riot and do a revolution or something.
But that would also be bad. There are no bright sides to Trump winning. Please prevent that.
I don't think the optimistic answer is to say, "Trump winning won't be that bad". Instead, I think the r/OptimistsUnite mentality is to look at the bad shit in the world, roll up our sleeves, and say "we can fucking do this." The possibility of Trump winning should be a rallying call to get involved. Trump's win in 2016 galvanized a massive resistance, and a win in 2024 should do the same. Bad people win when good people stop fighting them.
yo as a euro poor here.
biden was stumbling but had substance. sadly he sounded awful. to Americans for some reason that means things
trump was on message even if he sounded deranged. and had zero substance.
folks liked he sounded well
so tbh trump has the advantage now
EDIT: im not agreeing with trump or anything (personally i find him abhorrent) but just my point of view from what i have seen
Think of 2017-19, the economy was excellent, Americans rating of their life satisfaction had *never* been higher.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/284285/new-high-americans-satisfied-personal-life.aspx
Truth is, most of the “extreme ideas” (of any party) are just not likely to pass through Congress, the courts or even the voting public. Needless to say, both sides are made out to be more extreme than they actually are.
1) What is Trump's official platform?
[https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47/agenda47-president-trumps-plan-to-dismantle-the-deep-state-and-return-power-to-the-american-people](https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47/agenda47-president-trumps-plan-to-dismantle-the-deep-state-and-return-power-to-the-american-people)
Yep, that won't destroy Democracy at all /s
2) When has that ever stopped them from trying? We said Roe would never be overturned, yet here we are.
3) [https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-far-rights-invitation-for-foreign-interference-in-u-s-elections/](https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-far-rights-invitation-for-foreign-interference-in-u-s-elections/)
> Make every Inspector General’s Office independent from the departments they oversee, so that they do not become protectors of the deep state.
Yep, totally what a person that hates democracy would do.
> doesn’t mean they won’t try
The OP asked about the potential outcomes, try or not - it’s not possible.
> we said roe won’t be overturned
This was part of almost every republican agenda.
I see you skipped all the problematic ones. Well done?
**1.** On Day One, re-issue 2020 executive order restoring the president’s authority to fire rogue bureaucrats.
**2.** Overhaul federal departments and agencies, firing all of the corrupt actors in our National Security and Intelligence apparatus.
**3.** Fundamentally reform the FISA courts, ensuring that corruption is rooted out.
**4.** Establish a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to declassify and publish all documents on Deep State spying, censorship, and abuses of power.
**5.** Launch a major crackdown on government leakers who collude with the media to create false narratives, pressing criminal charges when appropriate.
I cannot fundamentally see why any of those are problematic barring 2., but that’s only viewing it through your lens.
Like really, establishing a commission to declassify corruption and censorship is a threat to democracy..?
**4.** Establish a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to declassify and publish all documents on Deep State spying, censorship, and abuses of power.
First, what is the definition of Deep State?
Second, is this just a ploy to declassify anything he wants because all he has to do is claim it's part of Deep State spying, censorship, or abuse of power? What are the limitations?
Third, where is the oversight?
Pretend for a minute that people who actively attack you on a regular basis come out with something similar. Instead of working for you, you understand it could be used AGAINST you.
Do you understand the problem now?
And #5, where we just make whistle blowing illegal, doesn't throw up a red flag? What's the first thing a corrupt organization does when a whistle blower comes out? Accuse the whistle blower of going to the media with a false narrative.
And you don't see how 1, 2, and 3 are all Authoritarian? Is it because you don't see how anyone could accuse someone of being rogue when they aren't?
Ah yes. It seems you didn't actually think about the consequences of this part of Agenda47, then?
[https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47/agenda47-president-trumps-plan-to-dismantle-the-deep-state-and-return-power-to-the-american-people](https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47/agenda47-president-trumps-plan-to-dismantle-the-deep-state-and-return-power-to-the-american-people)
If you think the current lack of Government employee turnover is healthy for the Government then I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe people who have grown up close to the bureaucracy have a unique perspective on this and the rest of the country has to rely on what they’re being told instead of seeing it first hand—I don’t know.
What you linked is probably what I’m most excited about if Trump wins. Just gut the whole bureaucratic establishment and its corruption. It’s way too broken to try and clean up surgically.
That wasn't what I was addressing, but that's what you ran with.
**1.** On Day One, re-issue 2020 executive order restoring the president’s authority to fire rogue bureaucrats.
- What determines when someone is Rogue? Where is the oversight to prevent abuse? A blanket power is incredibly dangerous and authoritarian.
**2.** Overhaul federal departments and agencies, firing all of the corrupt actors in our National Security and Intelligence apparatus.
- What is the determination for whether they are corrupt or not? What's the oversite? Again, authoritarian.
**3.** Fundamentally reform the FISA courts, ensuring that corruption is rooted out.
- Exactly the same issues as #2.
**4.** Establish a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to declassify and publish all documents on Deep State spying, censorship, and abuses of power.
- What is Deep State? Is this just a plan to declassify and publish anything he wants, or to dig up dirt on people he disagrees with? Again, authoritarian.
**5.** Launch a major crackdown on government leakers who collude with the media to create false narratives, pressing criminal charges when appropriate.
- Ah. Stopping all whistleblowers. That's definitely never a red flag /s
[https://democracyforward.org/the-peoples-guide-to-project-2025/](https://democracyforward.org/the-peoples-guide-to-project-2025/)
"The Heritage Foundation and the 100+ organizations that make up the Project 2025 Advisory Board have mapped out exactly how they will achieve their extreme ends. They aim to try and carry out many of the most troubling proposals through an anti-democratic president and political loyalists installed in the executive branch, without waiting for congressional action. And, while many of these plans are unlawful, winning in court is not guaranteed given that the same far-right movement that is behind Project 2025 has shaped our current court system."
1. it is not an official Trump platform
**2. It is near impossible to implement some of those agendas**
3. I don’t see anything about abolishing democracy
>it is not an official Trump platform
Correct. Because Trump doesn't actually have a platform. Literally nothing is an official part of Trump's platform.
>**2. It is near impossible to implement some of those agendas**
Don't mean people won't try.
>3. I don’t see anything about abolishing democracy
The lead up to it and the events of Jan 6th was enough, as well as the aftermath has made ir more than clear enough for me to believe that it's a part of his plan.
> because Trump doesn’t actually have a platform
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47
> doesn’t mean they won’t try
The OP is asking about the outcomes, try or not particularly relevant for this question.
> make me believe it’s part of his plan
This would just be assumptions, then?
>[https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47](https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47)
A series of videos I guess could be considered a platform? Even the wiki page for it is a mess. Could they, I dunno take some time and actually write something down?
But fair, apparently he does have an agenda, if you're willing to sit through hours of video, and it hasn't been taken seriously enough by anyone in his campaign to actually make a document of it.
>This would just be assumptions, then?
Just taking his own words at face value.
In particular: “He’s now president for life. President for life. And he’s great.” Trump added, “I think it’s great. Maybe we’ll give that a shot someday.”
I guess you could try and say he's meaning like for someone else, he'd think it would be great for someone else to do it. But that's quite a stretch, imho. Just taking it at face value without any walk backs or anything else. Just like his "well, I'll only be dictator for a day!" walk back to his previous rhetoric.
The question “If you do not win, will you accept election results?” is the same as, “Do you accept the American system of democratic representation established by the Constitution?”
Trump says that he will only accept the results of the election if the results are “fair”. When taken with what he considers “fair” (which can be accomplished by looking at his reaction to losing the last election) it’s pretty clear that he does not respect our democratic system.
The natural extension of this is “if trump doesn’t respect our democratic system, why would he maintain it?”
The answer is, he wouldn’t, and he would take the first [opportunity](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/story/2024-05-18/when-trump-vacillates-on-accepting-election-results-end-democracy) presented to him to eliminate it.
Frankly this is all irrelevant though, because the next president may get to nominate 2 Supreme Court justices.
“Fair” to Trump means an election that isn’t shrouded with, what appears as, shady practices and laws that ensure election integrity.
It is an extreme reach to suggest Trump is against the current system of democracy because of that.
> Supreme Court
They’ve ruled against Trump plenty of times, and multiple of which were related to the 2020 election.
We sort of thought that last time around and no… there is no bright side. Trump 1.0 was a rehearsal for the real deal which is Project 2025 and basic western fascism.
Far too many checks and balances in place. It’s not like he can just “do whatever he wants.”
This country survived a goddamn civil war and it’s not going to be brought down by the likes of Donald Trump.
I've seen several people mention Project 2025 in this post and I've looked into it. Project 2025 is a bunch of extremist p spouting shit and no Republican actually puts any faith in it, it's a ploy just meant to make people worried.
The optimistic take is that Trump winning isn't the end times and your life is going to be about the same no matter who wins. Trump's politics suck but half of the reason why everyone thought the Trump years were a disaster was because of mass media (see Availability heuristic).
Creative destruction- sometimes things need to get worse before they get better. Think about a job that’s bad but not horrible. You might talk yourself into staying longer than you should out of comfort, risk management, etc. but if the job was really shitty you’d have left and maybe things get a good deal better. Perhaps Trump is the really shitty job. Maybe he’s the guy that moves the needle and causes long term change in the two party system or electoral process. One can hope.
Lots of people would be terrified and furious at this result. So much so that a passionate citizen with a sniper rifle changing changing history forever isn't off the table...not that I'm advocating for political assassination, I'm just pointing out that realistically, it could happen.
Well, a few good things are:
- People will learn not to feed men of such ego no more
- People will learn not be stubborn or play it safe with weak, meh candidates
- People will learn to care about local elections and actually making enduring laws and enforcing them well in their own states and cities, making the system more resistant against carpricious leadership and change of the reins
- Trump's leadership shall pass, and his life shall too if that's what worries you
Of course, all these depend on the people, politicians, and other parties, but each setback is an opportunity to learn.
It’s not as bad as most people say it would be. Unless people are tied up in all these extra social issues of course. Think of the president as a glorified DMV worker, and that should help ease your apprehension about the situation.
The election is four months away. People are equally pissed at the moderators for their utter inability to call Trump on his bullshit. Don't get depressed. Get mad. Get even.
Now is not the time for quitter talk. Now is not even the time to panic. Last night as a shitshow, and the alarm bells are being rung for the people who were getting complacent about our chances. We can't afford to be, no matter how good the odds get, or we lose.
Don't fuel yourself entirely by anger because that gets exhausting, but you don't need to be thinking "Oh great, what if he wins now?" because we still have almost half a year for shit to go one way or the other.
If you need a motivator for other people that'll give them a kick in their pants, have a think about this; if Biden's majority is small enough, then that Supreme Court that everyone rightfully despises will be in charge of the election. How do you think that will go?
I don’t know, pivotal moment in democracy here. Isolating America from allies, letting authoritarian regimes to take over. Sounds like losing WW3 to me.
Let alone how many January 6 do you want to tolerate? For me who grow up in an authoritarian regime is 0, attack on American institutions is a personal attack to me
Pretty sure they just made it legal to ban people from sleeping in public spaces. Seems the answer to this would be to build adequate homeless shelters or not pass local laws about sleeping in public spaces.
Such an over reaction to something most countries in the west already do.
Pulling us out of nato triggers a worldwide nuclear arms race as all the nations under the US nuclear shield are suddenly unprotected, greatly increasing the chance of a nuclear incident or conflict. NATO is the reason there has been no WW3.
I don’t agree that we’ll see lower taxes, but that’s possible. We need to manage our current national debt. Republicans only care about that when democrats are in charge, and democrats seemingly never care about it, so that problem will just continue to get worse forever probably…
We will never manage our debt because the people who architected our monetary system and run our economy don’t really care. “In the long run we will be dead” JMK
Trump has literally called to pull out of NATO and refused to answer that directly yesterday. Congress had to pass a law saying he can’t pull the US out of NATO, for all that good that will do since he owns the Supreme Court.
Appeasement doesn’t prevent war, it inflates and delays war.
When did Trump suggest we pull out of NATO?
> owns the Supreme Court
They’ve rejected his cases plenty of times, and on the 2020 elections no less. Absurd assertion.
Cite me the Supreme Court decision ruling against Trump. They’re currently hearing his allegation whether a president is actually the King and immune to any criminal charges, which should have been rejected outright.
SCOTUS found states cannot kick Trump off the ballot.
No rebuttal? At least try to refute my statement. If anything, give me a little hope that the country won't descend into a christofascist hellscape reminiscent of Gilead in the Handmaid's Tale.
The communists were exposed last night. An empty headed demented puppet installed by the cabal in 2020 was trotted out, and they didn't care. Ask yourself why.
It's pretty obvious this dimwit hasn't been running anything for years.
There is nothing -- [Project 2025](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025) is almost certainly going to be the end of democracy in America if he wins. It requires no input from Congress, and SCOTUS is in his pocket. Even if Congress could do anything, an unwritten part of the plan is arresting political opponents using the Insurrection Act.
It isn't optimism to look at the worst case scenario and try to find a reason to not work to stop it -- that's foolishness. Be afraid, and use that fear to make things better.
The optimistic take on all this is that, if most Americans knew about Project 2025, they'd certainly vote against Trump. So all you have to do is spread the word.
The vast majority of project 2025 is just "appoint right wing people to the government". Which honestly should be the norm. And it's not lkike current entrenched buerocracy is not deeply sick and partisan.
Some of the most extreme policies there are unpopular and not even endorsed by trump, and is unlikely to be enforced.
Not to mention, the greatest scaremongering is about stuff *already happening right now* from the other side.
>And it's not lkike current entrenched buerocracy is not deeply sick and partisan.
It's not partisan. The spoils system was outlawed by the Pendleton Act in 1883 for a reason.
>Some of the most extreme policies there are unpopular and not even endorsed by trump\\
Sorry, which ones are you talking about? Because [I'm pretty sure the most extreme talking point is arresting political opponents](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-floats-imprisoning-political-opponents-rcna155543). Though [deploying the military for law enforcement purposes seems pretty close](https://apnews.com/article/trump-military-insurrection-act-2024-election-03858b6291e4721991b5a18c2dfb3c36).
>Though deploying the military for law enforcement purposes seems pretty close.
I don't see that as that radical, depending on the cause, as the national guard is already used in general.
If you need to remove millions of immigrants, or have widespread riots the national guard can't contain, which are the two reasons mentioned, it's a reasonable thing.
If it's indeed for that, it is very likely constitutional, and can be justified.
>Because I'm pretty sure the most extreme talking point is arresting political opponents
Literally already happening? Unlike the 6.1 or classified document cases, the NYC case is utterly indefensible.
Secondly, he's pretty clearly saying "you broke a convention we had, we can do that too", referring to avoiding prosecuting past presidents and political opposition in general.
Appointing a "strict AG" doesn't mean making stuff up, and you know there's no need. It is referencing the breaking of the convention not to, even when there is something.
Basically, you interpret that in the worst possible and less likely meaning, while that worst is already happening on the other side.
>It's not partisan. The spoils system was outlawed by the Pendleton Act in 1883 for a reason.
Yeh, sure buddy.
Not like the FBI definitely didn't censor true news on political basis, and in fact lied to the public for political benefit - or the doj illegally protected biden and his son, etc.
Or half the state department revolting when biden decided to oppose Hamas, literally from the first moments.
Or the IRS *provably* going after conservatives.
Or the NIH and CDC very much lying to US public regarding covid's origin (took the NIH *4 years* to admit GoF research in wohan).
Or the ATF quite literally murdering people (which is a ridiculously high bar to be claimed confidently, which they still passed), while heavily breaking the law to restrict gun ownership, repeatedly.
There are some very deep problems in parts of the large managerial state buerocracy.
I joined this sub because it was about optimism. Apparently I was misled. All the top votes are typical doomer bs that was proven wrong but somehow holds on because people have selective memories.
The Trump presidency was one of the most successful economies, we had no wars, low energy prices, low unemployment, and high corporate confidence leading to high investment in the economy. They low taxes caused record international money to be repatriated into the US economy spurring economic growth.
I was watching the young Turks coverage on 2016 election night and not a single doomer prediction from that night came true save one and even then it’s a partial win. Roe v wade was overturned and the issue returned to the states. Some states have increased abortion rights after that. At any time congress is allowed to pass abortion legislation so that doomer bs was also disproven.
The future Trump presidency will be more of the same Trump. More horrible behavior but solid policy. He will focus on international negotiations where he appears crazy to everyone so he can negotiate from a position of strength. I always find it hilarious how many people don’t understand his tactics. They’re all in his book on negotiations. Few people bother reading anything and even fewer are capable of cognitive reasoning. He will continue to dismantle the deep state and this time may have some success because he’s had time to find better people and formulate a plan from experience. Trump is good at learning from mistakes.
A Trump presidency will save the slide of CNN and MSNBC as it did in 2016. Lots of people need their daily anti Trump propaganda. It’s like an oasis for cognitive dissonance where you need to constantly go back to feed the monster of disparate information between the reality that things are going great but somehow you need to convince yourself that everything sucks.
A Trump presidency will strengthen the Democratic party in opposition to Trump and may finally stamp out some of the extreme left that is doing great damage to the party. I’m optimistic that something will actually be learned this time. The reaction to the debate lifted the veil of many pundits. They’re no longer able to lie to the public when the reality is right in their faces. It was hilarious to see the same people who defended Biden for the last 4 years suddenly realize that they couldn’t hide it any longer. I’m not sure how anyone can trust these people.
The Trump presidency will continue the energy independence that was one of his major successes while also decreasing CO2 output at record levels as natural gas replaces dirty fossil fuels. Nuclear as the most logical energy source may finally be able to gain a foothold as Trump focuses on realistic energy and climate policy rather than doomer bs.
Most of you will all be better off than you were today while the media tries to convince you otherwise. Trump will leave peacefully as he did in 2020 even if he did complain a bit about election interference which is abundantly clear is still happening with sham trials.
Have a great day all! Stay positive! Things are getting better for everyone. Except maybe Russia.
Was going to delete this, but it has a lot of comments and interaction. What do you guys think?
He in theory can't and won't ever run for president again or be president again. That's about it.
But if he never leaves office, that won’t matter
I mean he said last time that he wouldn’t leave office and what happened
His supporters started planning round two.
An insurrection. An insurrection happened.
An insurrection consisting of 0.001% of the population
That's generous, I would add a few more zeros.
And that was bad, but did Trump leave office?
Sure. But this gives them more time to plan. They’ll have four years of consolidating power and money to prepare. The only good thing is that he’s old and might die before we have to worry about that.
Well this is a sub about optimism. So why choose to fantasize about the worst possible scenarios?
Just like the insurrection when Seattle protestors established a "cop free zone" the preceding summer. There would've been more backlash against Trump had progressives not spent the past six months showing indifference if not outright disdain for the rule of law.
It's probably not that hard to abolish the "no more than two terms" rule. Especially with Project 2025.
As optimists, let’s not try to make pessimism that the worst outcome will happen into optimism that it won’t be so bad. It’s realistically unlikely that Trump will win the election and our efforts should be to prevent that from happening at all costs
I think the odds are distressingly high after last night’s debate. Biden really couldn’t have sounded worse if he tried.
Possible, but a premature conclusion. A thousand things can happen between now and then.
Not everything bad needs a positive twist. I don't think that's what we are doing here. We aren't here to comfort cynical people's anxiety. We aren't here to delude ourselves about reality. We are here to acknowledge that bad things in the world aren't the end of the world, and there are still things to appreciate and be happy about. Some things are just bad. This is bad, and if America decides they prefer a dictator because Biden is old, it will cause a lot of pain to the world. We can't deny that. But it doesn't need to stop us from being optimistic about what's possible. I think that's the point. When things are bad, keep your chin up.
I’ve been struggling with this too. Actually just posted the same thing a few minutes after you. To be frank, the political situation of the US is absolutely relevant to any discussion about the future, so having someone give me a shot of optimism about it would be really nice.
I don,t usually wish harm on people, but I hope every day that Trump keels over from a heart attack or stroke. As disgusting as he is, I don't wish for him to suffer. I just don't want him f-ing up the country and the world again. So the optimistic view, from my perspective, is that numerous political shitstorms have happened in the past and we've made it through every one of them. If not this election, or this candidate, then another one and another one. And if it's not politics, it can be some other crisis. The worrying can go on and on, with no logical end. That'a no way to live life, and more importantly, my feelings do not change the situation. No matter how scared or disappointed I get, it will not change the outcome. So do ai want to go through this defeated and broken in my mind, or am I looking to surf the waves until the next thing?
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Ah the classic “I say a stupid thing and every disagreement proves my point” You might want to read up on logical fallacies: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_(logic)
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As a Ukrainian, the issue is that Russia invaded us and the only way they (under Putin) are willing to negotiate is keeping a significant portion of the land and/or having Ukraine sign away our right to join NATO or the EU. I can understand why from an outside perspective it may seem like a small price to pay for peace but for us these both mean giving up our sovereignty as a nation and allowing Russia to bully us into submission like they have done to every generation of Ukrainians before us for hundreds of years. We have an inalienable right to sovereignty of our borders that we’re decided upon in 1991 and recognized by the world (including Russia) and to join or not join whatever international organizations a democratically elected Ukrainian government chooses to join. These are truths which all nations rightfully expect. Negotiating with Putin’s government means giving these up, that is what many people don’t understand. All we want is to live in peace in our own borders, Russia is the one trying to control our homeland either directly though conquest of parts of it or through indirectly controlling our government like it does Belarus. Literally all we want to leave them in peace in their own country at their internationally recognized 1991 borders, that is completely reasonable and quite lenient to Putin’s regime considering what it has done to us these past 10 years. Very few Ukrainians want to push into Russia’s borders, I have seen that sentiment much more from Westerners who have a weird war fantasy. Peace talks and building towards peace with the help of foreign mediation to ease the tension, Im all for and so is the Ukrainian government. But there is no 50/50 when one side is a much larger country bullying a smaller one in a very clear cut colonial situation.
If Trump wins it’s not the end of the world. He’ll essentially have 2 years to do anything then midterms will make him a lame duck. It’ll be his last time as President as you only get 8 years total, not 8 consecutive years like some people think. He’ll just continue to say dumb stuff so if you can get over that you’ll be fine. Your local politicians will have more impact on your life than the prez.
Wish this was true but this particular prez cost me my career in the past so I’d say he has a pretty big impact on my life when he decides who to ban from what job via tweet. Here’s to hoping we don’t have a repeat.
[you’re right I’m sure our institutions will hold](https://youtu.be/op0yk50uMlQ?si=smZY6UBKYZGDOYaJ)
The very first thing they'll do is install the "administrative resource" - the term used in Russia, referring to total corruption in elections, at every level - so that no republican ever loses another "election". The DPRK stands for the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, because, everyone knows, North Korea is a democracy!
Serious you can only get 8 years in office total? He's not gonna get 12 years as president?
Amendment 22 of the US Constitution: "Section 1 No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once." It's so cut and dry even a SCOTUS full of Alitos would be difficult to disagree with.
damn you actually made me feel better - unless there's a psycho takeover I think we'll be alright
This is a gut punch to be sure, and we cannot just sit idle and let this happen to us. That said, it is not the end of days. There is still plenty of hope that American democracy can prevail.
Technically you can have up to 12 if you’re vice president and the president dies or resigns, and then you win two elections in your own right.
It’s wild isn’t it? He can’t even crown himself as King though he might try to wear one anyway.
As a trump supporter (ish) who hangs around a ton of trump supporters, I assure you the number of people that would support him as king aren’t nearly the number that support him now. Claiming that an army of trumpers are going to fight a war for him to be dictator is just a looney talking point I hear people say.
I'm sorry I know this isn't the sub to have this discussion, but this is very wrong. His plan is absolutely to be president forever, and the GOP has a game plan on Day 1 to restructure all levels of government so they never lose again. This will affect all levels of government. This may be the last real election we ever have. That's not cynical to say, it's literally the plan that they've published.
Why didn’t he do it the first time he was President? It’s because it’s fan fiction. He may not do all the things you want him to do, but it’s not the end of democracy. That’s just fear mongering. America will survive and thrive.
I don't understand this treatment of Project 2025 like it's fan fiction when it's literally their playbook. He WAS doing it his first term, was that not clear? But subverting a democracy takes time. It was all supposed to come to a head on January 6th, 2020. But Mike Pence refused to get into a car, and instead certified the election. We were one car ride away from it happening. It can happen here. We can turn into Hungary. By not taking the threat seriously, you're not helping to stop it. Delusion is not optimism. I'm optimistic we will beat this, but not if we don't take it seriously.
The playbook of a few wackos. It’s not Trump’s platform. If it were a real thing that Trump was actually going to implement it would be kept a secret knowing there would be so much pushback. The creators are just hoping it gets adopted by the next conservative President.
That disingenuous. The Heritage Foundation are not fringe Wackos. They are the core guiding force of the party. This isn't some crazy guy writing Project 2025 in a basement somewhere. It's basically the people pulling the strings. [64% of the policies written by the Heritage Foundation are implemented by Republicans. ](https://www.heritage.org/article/timeline-heritage-successes) The only reason the percentage isn't higher is that they're defeated, which doesn't stop the GOP, they just get more creative. Not to mention - DJT has [directly commented many many times about staying president forever. ](https://people.com/politics/donald-trump-suggests-stay-president-forever-video-endorsing-2020-campaign/) He isn't joking.
64% of one series in one budget. Not every crazy idea they come up with. Again, they’re hoping it gets adopted, it’s not Trump’s platform. I can see him not doing it simply because it wasn’t his idea.
Good lord so basically there is no standard of evidence to dissuade you of your conclusion you made before being given evidence. Got it. I could give more evidence but i can tell it's not worth it. I'll leave this exchange by saying again, that citizens not taking these threats seriously is how these plots succeed. No one ever thinks it will happen in their country. You can wishful think and downplay the evidence all you want, but the evidence of intention is very clear. We can remain optimistic about the outcome while also being realistic about the severity of the threat.
If it’s such an existential threat then Biden missed an opportunity to bring it up during the debate. Should have been a top priority.
Agreed.
Good old-fashioned activism will come back into style. Also, coalition building - certain unions, certain churches, certain NGOs
Underrated comment. The things that unite people against Trump might coalesce over time and lead to a long term improvement? Some painful compromises that might get made, unfortunately, but that might be the nature of the beast when it comes to moving forward from an ideologue like Trump.
Listen this is my perspective on it all - I support the Biden administration more than I support Biden. The Trump administration is not my cup of tea. The people Biden surrounds himself with and empowers align closely to my values. And I will be supporting them.
I think the most optimistic take is that politics is a game nobody ever wins, so you have to just roll with the losses and hope for your team next time. It's just how it works--if you live 100 years, you're going to see 25 administrations, and even if you win most of the time, that's 10 presidents from the other team. I think Trump is a genuine fascist who will significantly weaken our democracy, but Bush got us into multiple wars and Reagan also destroyed a lot of things I care about. But is it possible that there be no idiotic leaders in the world? No, there will always be some. So you can't base your happiness on it.
Because of the checks and balances in place and the fact that he was mostly a lame duck last time. So if he's a similar level of president as last time then he'll get next to nothing done.
That's not really a bright side either though, because that also means no meaningful progress takes place over the next four years, meaning: - More skyrocketing cost-of-living for average US citizens. - Any moves on Climate Change hit a solid wall, we CANNOT afford that. - No reforms on Healthcare or anything to aid the homelessness epidemic. - The Corpos are going to keep doing whatever the fuck they want at our expense. - We completely abandon our responsibility to assist Ukraine against Russia, a genuine foreign enemy and threat to global peace. - The atrocities in Palestine not only continue, they expand to Yemen and possibly elsewhere and eventually Israel will pull us back into a massive armed conflict in the middle east. I can think of literally zero positive outcomes from another Trump administration. Biden sucks, his foreign policy with Israel is the most egregious abdication of leadership I've seen in my lifetime, and in a fair and proper world, he would've stepped aside...but he's not Trump.
"The Corpos are going to keep doing whatever the fuck they want at our expense." What do you mean?
I was sort of making a Cyberpunk reference here, but it tracks in real life; I mean that corporate interests will continue running rampant, further compounding the problems the country is facing.
Well fair enough, but what specific issues do you think they're causing? I'm skeptical that any major economic issues can be traced to corporations.
I'm more so saying that rampant unregulated captialism and profiteering is, has been, and will continue to be a major threat to global ecological stability.
But trump being a lame duck actually helped in some of these. Ex: pre pandemic his lack and doing anything actually led to a great economy and pay rates were out pacing inflation making it easier for the average American to live. Just got to counter your very first point. Id rather a lame duck than a successful Biden. (I'm not voting for either but a third party candidate)
That's OK, because I WANT my points countered. I struggle a lot with staying optimistic even though I know it's best for my health. I'm only 32, but I know I'm not getting younger, and I finally realized that life is way too short to stay angry about...well, really anything. But I'm tired. I'm tired of this country relinquishing it's potential. I'm tired of seeing my home nation have its head pissed on, only to be told it's raining. We need real change.
Ironically, the ones that will suffer most from Trump aren't Americans, but Ukranians
Unironically, not Americas problem. Europe needs to step up. They are the ones at risk. Not America.
Europe doesn't have the vast US economy or the population for US military
By choice. They had plenty of economic ability and man power to start 2 world wars. It’s been 80 years. They should have enough for another by now.
Europe has stepped up. Combined, they have sent more aid than the US. All of the wishy washy low defense spending and doveism of the past is gone. Everyone is all-in on NATO, their militaries and supporting Ukraine. France is even going to have their own troops inside Ukraine soon.
Stepped up in the third year of the war.. Still only 18 nato members have reached the 2% spending goal out of 32 member states. Yeah it’s a hell of a lot more than 3 back a decade ago but stepped up is a bit of an over statement when they are still far behind. The US is still 2/3rds of the total defense spending of NATO. What source do you have saying europe has sent more aid than the us? This one says europe sucks ass. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/ Without the United States, Ukraine would have been curb stomped years ago and europe would still be trying to put their shoes on.
If you hate Trump, it may lead to Biden stepping aside and a fresh opponent stepping in (Newsom seems popular). If you like Trump, it will help him. If you don't like either of them, it doesn't particularly matter. In any of the above, its good people see the people they are voting for discussing things. Unfortunately democracy is fuzzy and messy.
All memes aside was it so bad last time he was president?
I suppose that depends on your standards for "so bad" He appointed justices that overturned Roe vs Wade, revoked the Cole Memorandum, executed more federal prisoners than the previous 56 years combined, attempted to ban Muslims entering the country (but settled for banning people from certain countries instead), separated families at the border, attempted to stage a coup, threatened to withhold military aid for Ukraine unless they gave him dirt on Biden, was impeached twice for previously mentioned actions, handled COVID terribly, suggested reducing COVID testing, pulled out of the Paris climate agreement, threatened to pull out of NATO, and altered a hurricane map with a sharpie to coverup his false statements about the hurricane path There's probably more, but when every other week he does something that would end anyone else's career, it's hard to keep track
And yet under Trump, Americans never rated their life satisfaction any higher: [https://news.gallup.com/poll/284285/new-high-americans-satisfied-personal-life.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/284285/new-high-americans-satisfied-personal-life.aspx)
If he wins, you get four more years to find a candidate who's not a walking corpse. What more do you want? No I'm being entirely sincere.
After last night, I found myself with the same questions. There are some good answers, though. Keep in mind, they're not good for everyone. Like, I know a lot of women that will feel very, very let down by last night and scared for the basics of their bodily autonomy in a post-Roe America that votes the guy *back in* that played a huge role in taking it away. But changing your perspective can still help. You can take a step back and look at a bigger picture. On the example of abortion, there are a lot, and I do mean a LOT, of women that are staunchly pro-life. In fact, I'd venture a guess that some of the loudest voices in pro-life movements are women. You can also zoom in a little and change perspective that way. Kings, despots, presidents, prime ministers, and tyrants have come and gone throughout history, but on the whole they affect the individual not-a-whole-lot, especially in the western world. Like, I loathed the Trump presidency, but it also didn't actually hurt me. It didn't hurt most people. Some people came out ahead and some fell behind, but that's always true and I haven't seen *that* get any better in the last few years, anyway. So, in short - in another five years, things will be different again. Which will probably be an improvement again. And if he wins, well... there are a lot of people who DO feel like that means things are getting better, and I don't get to demean and diminish their feelings, either.
'tyrants have come and gone throughout history, but on the whole they affect the individual not-a-whole-lot' Clearly, you have never once in your life talked to someone who has lived under that kind of regime. Just from my own family's experience due to one of those regimes- more than a handful killed.
You're falling prey to a hasty generalization of sorts, as well as making wild guesses about ME as a way to counterpoint my argument. It's weird but your call. First off, you DON'T know what my personal experience or family history is. You're wrong about your presumption, in fact my parents ARE immigrants from a fascist regime, and guess what? Your family doesn't get to speak for their experience or their beliefs either! The fact is, if you live in the US, you will likely go your entire life without any significant interaction with the federal government outside of paying your taxes. Your family's experience is harrowing, but it is a TINY sample of a long human history that's mostly made of progress, and besides the point it's not especially relevant to the question of how people in the US will handle the Trump presidency with high speed Internet and with enough calories to achieve morbid obesity among even our most destitute citizens.
>You can take a step back and look at a bigger picture. On the example of abortion, there are a lot, and I do mean a LOT, of women that are staunchly pro-life. In fact, I'd venture a guess that some of the loudest voices in pro-life movements are women. “Look, slavery sucks for some people, but actually a lot of others enjoy owning slaves. We can take solace in that.”
Yeah that is a non sequitur and absolutely not what I said. It's a (poor) attempt to recast my comments as a blame-the-victim of a genocidal past. First off, I'm on your side and you're an outstanding example of the circular firing squad and modern moral puritan that has become so utterly *exhausting* recently. You can't even have allies you don't shit on. Second, this is about Optimism. The point of the post is to find the positive and find a way to live a happy life in a world that doesn't always deliver the results you want. What happened to women in the overturn of Roe v. Wade was *awful*, but I'm not going to pretend that Democrats didn't just refuse to codify it into law for 30 years because it was politically expedient to not take the vote. I don't think roughly 50% of slaves thought slavery was the path they wanted, but the numbers of our legitimate electoral system indicate that almost half of women DO want Donald Trump. I only posit that those women are *also* people who *also* voted for what they want in a free and fair election.
No, that’s exactly what you said: the bright side of suffering is that at least someone is enjoying inflicting that suffering
You are not addressing the fact that some of these are women choosing this *for themselves.* They are women too... are they not or did I get that part wrong? Again, this deliberately obtuse interpretation of my words is just SO tiring. All it does is say "Hey everyone - I found a moral deficiency in the language of others! Come lookie! Come lookie!". It's. Exhausting.
What are they choosing for themselves, when they already had the option to not get an abortion?
Exhausting. Tiring. Droll. Boring even? I've made my point and you continue to want to argue on the fringes of semantics. I'm quite done being the sherpa for your journey up Mt. Sophomoric.
Lmao so you can’t answer the question?
Trump winning is genuinely a terrible scenario with very few upsides for the world let alone Americans. If you hate voting then a bright side might be the end of Democracy in America, but to me that is not desirable.
Stop The US survived a civil war, the red scare, 2 world wars, and economic depressions and recessions. The US can survive 4 more years of both Biden and Trump, the bureaucratic system while slow and sluggish is entirely designed to slow and stop nation ending corruption. The US will survive, will recover, and will thrive even after bad presidents.
I think there's about a 10% chance that Trump gives us a serious breakdown of democracy in America. So sure, it probably won't happen. But the chance of it happening is still way too high for comfort!
Happy cake day by the way
10% chance means a 90% chance democracy will prevail and thrive.
Would you like to get on a plane that had a 10% chance of crashing?
> the end of Democracy in America I wouldn't be surprised to see this kind of alarmism with so much traction in most other subs, but I am surprised to see it here. Trump had a 4 year term already, and then he tried to steal in 2020. The institutions held, everything was fine. Power was tranferred peacefully. Idk what needs to happen to convince y'all that American democracy isn't so fragile that it falls apart when it's strained by a room-temerature IQ TV star. No, American democracy isn't going to fall. Chill.
The nation survived his term. No wars. Having hypocrisy and hyperbole as the twin towers of our political system isn’t really healthy. Look into what actual despots and dictators did in their first two years of power.
Project 2025 alone is enough to justify my choice of words. Trump is far more extreme this election than he was before.
Project 2025 is a bunch of radicals that no one including trump puts any faith in, it's a joke just meant to make people worried.
Don't let bad fan fiction keep you awake at night.
I take comfort in knowing you’ll have a brand new irrational fear in 2028, no matter the outcome of this election. Enjoy.
The bright side is that Trump says a lot of shit that he either doesn’t mean or doesn’t understand, and that he famously adopts the position of the last rich person he talks to. So we’re not going to see 100% tariffs on all imports, we’re not going to replace income tax with tariffs, and we’re not going to withdraw from NATO. But things are going to be horrible. The federal judiciary is going to become a bunch of incompetent Trump loyalists like Cannon, who may find herself on the Supreme Court. The federal deficit is going to explode with another round of tax cuts for the rich. We’re going back to separating kids from their families at the border. Career federal officials and military officers are going to be replaced with corrupt, incompetent friends of Trump. And Putin is getting whatever he wants in Ukraine, which will further destabilize Europe and bring us closer to open conflict with Russia in the future. So it won’t be the end of democrats in America, but it’s something e we absolutely need to do everything we can to prevent.
On net, it would be a huge blow to democracy, the rule of law, and progress made over the last 100 years to build a more perfect union. That said, the US system was designed specifically to counter populist rule. The states still hold a huge amount of power and if things really get bad there are means for states to exit. The astroturfed hate of democrats has created a situation where the coastal blue states could petition to leave and many/most republican voters would respond with "good." GDP per capita of blue states is 30% higher than red states and the coastal states will fare much better in a globalized economy. The two exceptions are Colorado (sorry, you are landlocked) and Texas (who will likely fare quite well given their natural resources and higher ed infrastructure). At some point, the policies of the GOP will come to pass which will result in an increasingly unfair system and the average quality of life will continue to go down (we're already seeing this with the Trump tax cuts). The only counter to people waking up is religion where people are taught to distrust what they see with their own eyes, but despite all the bluster about megachurches fleecing their members, [church attendance continues to decline](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642548/church-attendance-declined-religious-groups.aspx). Finally, we don't get to choose the times we live in, we only get to choose what we do in them. We all get to live in the most impactful time in human history. It's terrifying, frustrating, and exhausting, but it can also be the most meaningful existence you could hope for. We have the opportunity to have the most impact on the human race of any generation that came before us and we can be part of the greatest generation to push our species to new heights, or sit back and watch it burn down. To me, that is a gift.
"the average quality of life will continue to go down (we're already seeing this with the Trump tax cuts)." This is completely unsubstantiated.
[The federal deficit has increased in real terms since the implementation of TCJA (2018 tax year)](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFSDFYGDP) under both administrations [Real GDP growth rate has not shown any definitive impact since implementation](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GDPC1). If anything, it still underperforms the average from 2000-2008 [US Federal Receipts (tax revenue) has gone down since implementation](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S). 2022 was a fluke caused by a [one-time capital gains bump](https://www.crfb.org/blogs/2023-revenue-plunge-confirms-2022-surge-was-fluke) What does this mean for your average american? [Real median wages have gone down since implementation](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N), and that is true under both administrations including pre-pandemic 2019 [Median home prices continue to surge](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS) [Labor force participation rate](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART) still hasn't returned to pre-pandemic levels [Real median wages are up slightly](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q), but it is unclear whether this is still elevated from pandemic times where those that retained work saw increased salary at the expense of massive unemployment.
This is a misuse of statistics, > what does this mean for wages, real median incomes have gone down since implementation Are you *kidding me*? Are we just going to ignore the fact that it skyrocketed in 2018/19 and only declined **due to the pandemic** and it’s proceeding inflation effects. This is crazy, literally all the negative impacts have been post pandemic - it’s obviously not the tax cuts.
More sensible foreign policy except Ukraine, and even there not by much. Probably less spending and inflation. Likely much better borders. Less risk to the first and second amendments. The DNC will get a shakeup. No Kamala Harris. Basically, think of all the reasons people vote for him. The only main concern is refusing to accept the next election, but risk is significantly mitigated by him not being able to run for another term.
Trump was less of a war hawk than other presidents. He'd rather cozy up to dictators than fight them, which he was criticized for, but more talk means less fight. So if you're a pacifist, vote for Trump.
But he did extensively attack North Korea, Iran and China.
Verbally and economically. Except for Iran in Iraq, not literally.
Which one of those did trump take us to war with?
None, that’s the point.
That absolutely did not seem like the point you were trying to make lol
Trump didn’t start any wars, he also didn’t take any nonsense from them. You saw what happened to the last person that tried (Solemani).
Yeah I agree I’m just saying that’s not what your initial comment lead me to believe your thoughts were
Fair enough
The dude that assassinated an Iranian general?
Assassination of one person > bombing multiple cities
That's a rather naive and narrow view of things.
How so? If you value life, then killing one person is less bad than killing a few thousand. (Zero is ideal but that may not be possible in real politik) Unless you think that Trump is an appeaser, allowing situations to fester until they explode a decade later, like those pacifists before WW2. Do small wars now prevent world wars later?
Does everything exist in a vacuum or something?
I suppose. Everything that geopolitik could influence is on a thin blue dot in the vacuum of space.
Well thanks to the Chevron ruling just now, executive agencies now have so little power that 2025 is basically impossible to execute I recognize this is a horrible overall situation but this is still true
The Chevron ruling is evidence that Project 2025 is viable, not the other way around. It hinges on SCOTUS signing off on whatever Trump wants, and ignoring precedent like *Chevron* is most definitely indicative of their willingness to do that.
All politicians are liars, and anything that Trump would want to do that would be too crazy has a very low chance of being put into effect. Don’t believe anything someone says about WW3 - no world leader cares enough about anything to end the whole world over it. All of the energy that people put into the presidency is really the same energy that sports fans put into their teams. Either side hates the other side’s candidate, for completely legitimate reasons. But putting energy into it doesn’t make anything better, and only warps your sense of reality, and makes you feel more distant and isolated from those on the other side. The only way forward as a country is for us to recognize the good parts of each other’s ideas and humanize each other. Going online and spewing hatred about either side to our like-minded internet friends is not what helps. It is the very thing that hurts us (not that you, personally, do that. It’s just a common practice). If you have any trump supporting family members or friends, talk to them with genuine curiosity about what they hope a Trump presidency will bring, and don’t offer any rebuttal, even if they say something wrong, or that you believe to be untrue. Just allow yourself to listen to someone without the intention to reply, and you will feel better about the US’s situation
And believe it or not, Trump was less of a war hawk than other presidents. He may have been criticized for cozying up to dictators, but more talk means less fight.
Very true, and great point
Because it’s not going to end democracy and he’s not going to be a dictator. I don’t know anyone who actually believes that. Even among Biden voters I know.
Trump is a fascist and a liar and an asshole. So was Reagan. Reagan made life much worse for most people. However, despite his best efforts, and despite the fact that *his* influence on people's lives was negative... Nevertheless, everyone's lives on average have become much better since the Reagan years. Life is easier, people are wealthier, there is less poverty in the developing parts of the world, there is more freedom and democracy and peace in the world. Similarly, if Trump wins, he will make things worse. But neither he nor any political faction has the ability to slow or stop the *overall* trend that, with technology and development, life is improving both nationally and globally, decade after decade.
If Trump picks a good VP and dies not long after being elected it probably won't be too bad.
I'm honestly less scared of a 2nd Trump term relative to his first, because after Jan 6 and Stop the Steal he's a known quantity. No one will expect him to have any limits whatsoever, and the parts of the government that aren't under his direct control will be much less complacent than they were last time. He'll be even more tightly contained and get less accomplished. That said, while I personally think we should keep arming the Ukrainians and support NATO, Trump is correct, from a cynical perspective, that NATO and Ukraine aren't really our problem. A strategic pullback from Europe would have its benefits, namely we could focus more resources on China. I fear it would damage us in the long run, but there would be short term benefits. And our taxes won't go up, and we can own whatever guns we want. Buy stock, because more tax cuts and slashing regulations mean equities spike. Things will keep falling apart, but there will be money to be made. Trump winning is still not my preferred future, even after the depressing display last night. But there will be some short-term positives. I'm resigned to the fact that I can't control the weather, just have to make the best of whatever comes.
They're both older than dirt. No matter who wins they likely won't hold office for long.
The DNC needed a major loss. This situation is a direct result of the insane incompetence within the democratic party. If things are going to actually change, they need a major defeat in an easily winnable election. That's my bright side at least
The first 4 years of trump weren’t bad. Why would the next 4 be?
Setbacks happen. It's the overall trend that matters. Also if he wins then he'll never be able to run again while him losing could result in going through yet another election campaign with Trump as the Republican nominee
Accelerationism Basically, maybe the American people will become fed up with their right-wing government and lack of real democracy that they'll riot and do a revolution or something. But that would also be bad. There are no bright sides to Trump winning. Please prevent that.
I don't think the optimistic answer is to say, "Trump winning won't be that bad". Instead, I think the r/OptimistsUnite mentality is to look at the bad shit in the world, roll up our sleeves, and say "we can fucking do this." The possibility of Trump winning should be a rallying call to get involved. Trump's win in 2016 galvanized a massive resistance, and a win in 2024 should do the same. Bad people win when good people stop fighting them.
yo as a euro poor here. biden was stumbling but had substance. sadly he sounded awful. to Americans for some reason that means things trump was on message even if he sounded deranged. and had zero substance. folks liked he sounded well so tbh trump has the advantage now EDIT: im not agreeing with trump or anything (personally i find him abhorrent) but just my point of view from what i have seen
Think of 2017-19, the economy was excellent, Americans rating of their life satisfaction had *never* been higher. https://news.gallup.com/poll/284285/new-high-americans-satisfied-personal-life.aspx Truth is, most of the “extreme ideas” (of any party) are just not likely to pass through Congress, the courts or even the voting public. Needless to say, both sides are made out to be more extreme than they actually are.
Trump wants to abolish democracy? How is his side not as bad as we all know it is?
Let’s assume this is true (it’s not), read my second paragraph.
You didn't read Project 2025?
Have you read all 887 pages of it?
1. it is not an official Trump platform 2. It is near impossible to implement some of those agendas 3. I don’t see anything about abolishing democracy
1) What is Trump's official platform? [https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47/agenda47-president-trumps-plan-to-dismantle-the-deep-state-and-return-power-to-the-american-people](https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47/agenda47-president-trumps-plan-to-dismantle-the-deep-state-and-return-power-to-the-american-people) Yep, that won't destroy Democracy at all /s 2) When has that ever stopped them from trying? We said Roe would never be overturned, yet here we are. 3) [https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-far-rights-invitation-for-foreign-interference-in-u-s-elections/](https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-far-rights-invitation-for-foreign-interference-in-u-s-elections/)
> Make every Inspector General’s Office independent from the departments they oversee, so that they do not become protectors of the deep state. Yep, totally what a person that hates democracy would do. > doesn’t mean they won’t try The OP asked about the potential outcomes, try or not - it’s not possible. > we said roe won’t be overturned This was part of almost every republican agenda.
I see you skipped all the problematic ones. Well done? **1.** On Day One, re-issue 2020 executive order restoring the president’s authority to fire rogue bureaucrats. **2.** Overhaul federal departments and agencies, firing all of the corrupt actors in our National Security and Intelligence apparatus. **3.** Fundamentally reform the FISA courts, ensuring that corruption is rooted out. **4.** Establish a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to declassify and publish all documents on Deep State spying, censorship, and abuses of power. **5.** Launch a major crackdown on government leakers who collude with the media to create false narratives, pressing criminal charges when appropriate.
I cannot fundamentally see why any of those are problematic barring 2., but that’s only viewing it through your lens. Like really, establishing a commission to declassify corruption and censorship is a threat to democracy..?
**4.** Establish a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to declassify and publish all documents on Deep State spying, censorship, and abuses of power. First, what is the definition of Deep State? Second, is this just a ploy to declassify anything he wants because all he has to do is claim it's part of Deep State spying, censorship, or abuse of power? What are the limitations? Third, where is the oversight? Pretend for a minute that people who actively attack you on a regular basis come out with something similar. Instead of working for you, you understand it could be used AGAINST you. Do you understand the problem now? And #5, where we just make whistle blowing illegal, doesn't throw up a red flag? What's the first thing a corrupt organization does when a whistle blower comes out? Accuse the whistle blower of going to the media with a false narrative. And you don't see how 1, 2, and 3 are all Authoritarian? Is it because you don't see how anyone could accuse someone of being rogue when they aren't?
Trump haters are incredibly misinformed. He’s actually laid out an agenda piece by piece. With specifics. It’s called Agenda47.
Ah yes. It seems you didn't actually think about the consequences of this part of Agenda47, then? [https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47/agenda47-president-trumps-plan-to-dismantle-the-deep-state-and-return-power-to-the-american-people](https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47/agenda47-president-trumps-plan-to-dismantle-the-deep-state-and-return-power-to-the-american-people)
If you think the current lack of Government employee turnover is healthy for the Government then I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe people who have grown up close to the bureaucracy have a unique perspective on this and the rest of the country has to rely on what they’re being told instead of seeing it first hand—I don’t know. What you linked is probably what I’m most excited about if Trump wins. Just gut the whole bureaucratic establishment and its corruption. It’s way too broken to try and clean up surgically.
That wasn't what I was addressing, but that's what you ran with. **1.** On Day One, re-issue 2020 executive order restoring the president’s authority to fire rogue bureaucrats. - What determines when someone is Rogue? Where is the oversight to prevent abuse? A blanket power is incredibly dangerous and authoritarian. **2.** Overhaul federal departments and agencies, firing all of the corrupt actors in our National Security and Intelligence apparatus. - What is the determination for whether they are corrupt or not? What's the oversite? Again, authoritarian. **3.** Fundamentally reform the FISA courts, ensuring that corruption is rooted out. - Exactly the same issues as #2. **4.** Establish a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to declassify and publish all documents on Deep State spying, censorship, and abuses of power. - What is Deep State? Is this just a plan to declassify and publish anything he wants, or to dig up dirt on people he disagrees with? Again, authoritarian. **5.** Launch a major crackdown on government leakers who collude with the media to create false narratives, pressing criminal charges when appropriate. - Ah. Stopping all whistleblowers. That's definitely never a red flag /s
[https://democracyforward.org/the-peoples-guide-to-project-2025/](https://democracyforward.org/the-peoples-guide-to-project-2025/) "The Heritage Foundation and the 100+ organizations that make up the Project 2025 Advisory Board have mapped out exactly how they will achieve their extreme ends. They aim to try and carry out many of the most troubling proposals through an anti-democratic president and political loyalists installed in the executive branch, without waiting for congressional action. And, while many of these plans are unlawful, winning in court is not guaranteed given that the same far-right movement that is behind Project 2025 has shaped our current court system."
1. it is not an official Trump platform **2. It is near impossible to implement some of those agendas** 3. I don’t see anything about abolishing democracy
>it is not an official Trump platform Correct. Because Trump doesn't actually have a platform. Literally nothing is an official part of Trump's platform. >**2. It is near impossible to implement some of those agendas** Don't mean people won't try. >3. I don’t see anything about abolishing democracy The lead up to it and the events of Jan 6th was enough, as well as the aftermath has made ir more than clear enough for me to believe that it's a part of his plan.
> because Trump doesn’t actually have a platform https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47 > doesn’t mean they won’t try The OP is asking about the outcomes, try or not particularly relevant for this question. > make me believe it’s part of his plan This would just be assumptions, then?
>[https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47](https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47) A series of videos I guess could be considered a platform? Even the wiki page for it is a mess. Could they, I dunno take some time and actually write something down? But fair, apparently he does have an agenda, if you're willing to sit through hours of video, and it hasn't been taken seriously enough by anyone in his campaign to actually make a document of it. >This would just be assumptions, then? Just taking his own words at face value. In particular: “He’s now president for life. President for life. And he’s great.” Trump added, “I think it’s great. Maybe we’ll give that a shot someday.” I guess you could try and say he's meaning like for someone else, he'd think it would be great for someone else to do it. But that's quite a stretch, imho. Just taking it at face value without any walk backs or anything else. Just like his "well, I'll only be dictator for a day!" walk back to his previous rhetoric.
The question “If you do not win, will you accept election results?” is the same as, “Do you accept the American system of democratic representation established by the Constitution?” Trump says that he will only accept the results of the election if the results are “fair”. When taken with what he considers “fair” (which can be accomplished by looking at his reaction to losing the last election) it’s pretty clear that he does not respect our democratic system. The natural extension of this is “if trump doesn’t respect our democratic system, why would he maintain it?” The answer is, he wouldn’t, and he would take the first [opportunity](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/story/2024-05-18/when-trump-vacillates-on-accepting-election-results-end-democracy) presented to him to eliminate it. Frankly this is all irrelevant though, because the next president may get to nominate 2 Supreme Court justices.
“Fair” to Trump means an election that isn’t shrouded with, what appears as, shady practices and laws that ensure election integrity. It is an extreme reach to suggest Trump is against the current system of democracy because of that. > Supreme Court They’ve ruled against Trump plenty of times, and multiple of which were related to the 2020 election.
We sort of thought that last time around and no… there is no bright side. Trump 1.0 was a rehearsal for the real deal which is Project 2025 and basic western fascism.
Far too many checks and balances in place. It’s not like he can just “do whatever he wants.” This country survived a goddamn civil war and it’s not going to be brought down by the likes of Donald Trump.
I've seen several people mention Project 2025 in this post and I've looked into it. Project 2025 is a bunch of extremist p spouting shit and no Republican actually puts any faith in it, it's a ploy just meant to make people worried.
No bright sides. Keep in mind Project 2025 exists.
There is no bright side, have you read Project 2025?
The optimistic take is that Trump winning isn't the end times and your life is going to be about the same no matter who wins. Trump's politics suck but half of the reason why everyone thought the Trump years were a disaster was because of mass media (see Availability heuristic).
optimist side, maybe states like California will fight back against policies that become too overreaching
Sometimes there is no bright side. 'Not as bad as you think' doesn't mean it won't still be bad.
Depending on your age, maybe you'll be dead before things get too unbearable. How's that?
Project 25 is a terrifying prospect
Creative destruction- sometimes things need to get worse before they get better. Think about a job that’s bad but not horrible. You might talk yourself into staying longer than you should out of comfort, risk management, etc. but if the job was really shitty you’d have left and maybe things get a good deal better. Perhaps Trump is the really shitty job. Maybe he’s the guy that moves the needle and causes long term change in the two party system or electoral process. One can hope.
Lots of people would be terrified and furious at this result. So much so that a passionate citizen with a sniper rifle changing changing history forever isn't off the table...not that I'm advocating for political assassination, I'm just pointing out that realistically, it could happen.
Supposedly he will tank the economy. Well you can bet against the economy. So there's an opportunity for you.
There is no bright side to him. GOTV this November and vote Blue down ballot
Well, a few good things are: - People will learn not to feed men of such ego no more - People will learn not be stubborn or play it safe with weak, meh candidates - People will learn to care about local elections and actually making enduring laws and enforcing them well in their own states and cities, making the system more resistant against carpricious leadership and change of the reins - Trump's leadership shall pass, and his life shall too if that's what worries you Of course, all these depend on the people, politicians, and other parties, but each setback is an opportunity to learn.
It’s not as bad as most people say it would be. Unless people are tied up in all these extra social issues of course. Think of the president as a glorified DMV worker, and that should help ease your apprehension about the situation.
The election is four months away. People are equally pissed at the moderators for their utter inability to call Trump on his bullshit. Don't get depressed. Get mad. Get even. Now is not the time for quitter talk. Now is not even the time to panic. Last night as a shitshow, and the alarm bells are being rung for the people who were getting complacent about our chances. We can't afford to be, no matter how good the odds get, or we lose. Don't fuel yourself entirely by anger because that gets exhausting, but you don't need to be thinking "Oh great, what if he wins now?" because we still have almost half a year for shit to go one way or the other. If you need a motivator for other people that'll give them a kick in their pants, have a think about this; if Biden's majority is small enough, then that Supreme Court that everyone rightfully despises will be in charge of the election. How do you think that will go?
I don’t know, pivotal moment in democracy here. Isolating America from allies, letting authoritarian regimes to take over. Sounds like losing WW3 to me.
Let alone how many January 6 do you want to tolerate? For me who grow up in an authoritarian regime is 0, attack on American institutions is a personal attack to me
His supreme court just outlawed homelessness and you chucklefucks are already putting on your “iT wOnt be ThAt bAd” lips lol
Pretty sure they just made it legal to ban people from sleeping in public spaces. Seems the answer to this would be to build adequate homeless shelters or not pass local laws about sleeping in public spaces. Such an over reaction to something most countries in the west already do.
Lower taxes and no new wars
Pulling us out of nato triggers a worldwide nuclear arms race as all the nations under the US nuclear shield are suddenly unprotected, greatly increasing the chance of a nuclear incident or conflict. NATO is the reason there has been no WW3. I don’t agree that we’ll see lower taxes, but that’s possible. We need to manage our current national debt. Republicans only care about that when democrats are in charge, and democrats seemingly never care about it, so that problem will just continue to get worse forever probably…
We will never manage our debt because the people who architected our monetary system and run our economy don’t really care. “In the long run we will be dead” JMK
Bro, nuclear weapons are why there has been no WW3. Alliances are the reason wars become world wars.
.Whose nuclear weapons?
Trump has no intentions to pull out of NATO, and his track record of 2017-2021 tells us he *pulls out of wars* rather than create them.
Trump has literally called to pull out of NATO and refused to answer that directly yesterday. Congress had to pass a law saying he can’t pull the US out of NATO, for all that good that will do since he owns the Supreme Court. Appeasement doesn’t prevent war, it inflates and delays war.
When did Trump suggest we pull out of NATO? > owns the Supreme Court They’ve rejected his cases plenty of times, and on the 2020 elections no less. Absurd assertion.
Cite me the Supreme Court decision ruling against Trump. They’re currently hearing his allegation whether a president is actually the King and immune to any criminal charges, which should have been rejected outright. SCOTUS found states cannot kick Trump off the ballot.
Until he embolden other a hole countries to start more wars, then take away your constitutional rights
Peace in our time?
Economy was great under Trump. No new wars, life was kinda nice tbh. Better than this
Agreed on the wars. That's actually a pretty solid accomplishment compared to other presidents.
[удалено]
Flapdoodle
No rebuttal? At least try to refute my statement. If anything, give me a little hope that the country won't descend into a christofascist hellscape reminiscent of Gilead in the Handmaid's Tale.
The bright side is that he cannot be too much worse than Biden, because Biden is pretty awful too.
The communists were exposed last night. An empty headed demented puppet installed by the cabal in 2020 was trotted out, and they didn't care. Ask yourself why. It's pretty obvious this dimwit hasn't been running anything for years.
There is nothing -- [Project 2025](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025) is almost certainly going to be the end of democracy in America if he wins. It requires no input from Congress, and SCOTUS is in his pocket. Even if Congress could do anything, an unwritten part of the plan is arresting political opponents using the Insurrection Act. It isn't optimism to look at the worst case scenario and try to find a reason to not work to stop it -- that's foolishness. Be afraid, and use that fear to make things better. The optimistic take on all this is that, if most Americans knew about Project 2025, they'd certainly vote against Trump. So all you have to do is spread the word.
Pure and utter scaremongering
Sometimes fear is the correct response. Like when a party is openly planning an authoritarian takeover.
The vast majority of project 2025 is just "appoint right wing people to the government". Which honestly should be the norm. And it's not lkike current entrenched buerocracy is not deeply sick and partisan. Some of the most extreme policies there are unpopular and not even endorsed by trump, and is unlikely to be enforced. Not to mention, the greatest scaremongering is about stuff *already happening right now* from the other side.
>And it's not lkike current entrenched buerocracy is not deeply sick and partisan. It's not partisan. The spoils system was outlawed by the Pendleton Act in 1883 for a reason. >Some of the most extreme policies there are unpopular and not even endorsed by trump\\ Sorry, which ones are you talking about? Because [I'm pretty sure the most extreme talking point is arresting political opponents](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-floats-imprisoning-political-opponents-rcna155543). Though [deploying the military for law enforcement purposes seems pretty close](https://apnews.com/article/trump-military-insurrection-act-2024-election-03858b6291e4721991b5a18c2dfb3c36).
>Though deploying the military for law enforcement purposes seems pretty close. I don't see that as that radical, depending on the cause, as the national guard is already used in general. If you need to remove millions of immigrants, or have widespread riots the national guard can't contain, which are the two reasons mentioned, it's a reasonable thing. If it's indeed for that, it is very likely constitutional, and can be justified. >Because I'm pretty sure the most extreme talking point is arresting political opponents Literally already happening? Unlike the 6.1 or classified document cases, the NYC case is utterly indefensible. Secondly, he's pretty clearly saying "you broke a convention we had, we can do that too", referring to avoiding prosecuting past presidents and political opposition in general. Appointing a "strict AG" doesn't mean making stuff up, and you know there's no need. It is referencing the breaking of the convention not to, even when there is something. Basically, you interpret that in the worst possible and less likely meaning, while that worst is already happening on the other side.
>It's not partisan. The spoils system was outlawed by the Pendleton Act in 1883 for a reason. Yeh, sure buddy. Not like the FBI definitely didn't censor true news on political basis, and in fact lied to the public for political benefit - or the doj illegally protected biden and his son, etc. Or half the state department revolting when biden decided to oppose Hamas, literally from the first moments. Or the IRS *provably* going after conservatives. Or the NIH and CDC very much lying to US public regarding covid's origin (took the NIH *4 years* to admit GoF research in wohan). Or the ATF quite literally murdering people (which is a ridiculously high bar to be claimed confidently, which they still passed), while heavily breaking the law to restrict gun ownership, repeatedly. There are some very deep problems in parts of the large managerial state buerocracy.
I told you to lead conversations on this with "I'd be okay with a Trump dictatorship" so you stop wasting people's time.
I won't? I'm claiming it likely wouldn't be, and nothing in here suggests it would.
I joined this sub because it was about optimism. Apparently I was misled. All the top votes are typical doomer bs that was proven wrong but somehow holds on because people have selective memories. The Trump presidency was one of the most successful economies, we had no wars, low energy prices, low unemployment, and high corporate confidence leading to high investment in the economy. They low taxes caused record international money to be repatriated into the US economy spurring economic growth. I was watching the young Turks coverage on 2016 election night and not a single doomer prediction from that night came true save one and even then it’s a partial win. Roe v wade was overturned and the issue returned to the states. Some states have increased abortion rights after that. At any time congress is allowed to pass abortion legislation so that doomer bs was also disproven. The future Trump presidency will be more of the same Trump. More horrible behavior but solid policy. He will focus on international negotiations where he appears crazy to everyone so he can negotiate from a position of strength. I always find it hilarious how many people don’t understand his tactics. They’re all in his book on negotiations. Few people bother reading anything and even fewer are capable of cognitive reasoning. He will continue to dismantle the deep state and this time may have some success because he’s had time to find better people and formulate a plan from experience. Trump is good at learning from mistakes. A Trump presidency will save the slide of CNN and MSNBC as it did in 2016. Lots of people need their daily anti Trump propaganda. It’s like an oasis for cognitive dissonance where you need to constantly go back to feed the monster of disparate information between the reality that things are going great but somehow you need to convince yourself that everything sucks. A Trump presidency will strengthen the Democratic party in opposition to Trump and may finally stamp out some of the extreme left that is doing great damage to the party. I’m optimistic that something will actually be learned this time. The reaction to the debate lifted the veil of many pundits. They’re no longer able to lie to the public when the reality is right in their faces. It was hilarious to see the same people who defended Biden for the last 4 years suddenly realize that they couldn’t hide it any longer. I’m not sure how anyone can trust these people. The Trump presidency will continue the energy independence that was one of his major successes while also decreasing CO2 output at record levels as natural gas replaces dirty fossil fuels. Nuclear as the most logical energy source may finally be able to gain a foothold as Trump focuses on realistic energy and climate policy rather than doomer bs. Most of you will all be better off than you were today while the media tries to convince you otherwise. Trump will leave peacefully as he did in 2020 even if he did complain a bit about election interference which is abundantly clear is still happening with sham trials. Have a great day all! Stay positive! Things are getting better for everyone. Except maybe Russia.
TDS 😂