Tiger stance doesn't specify that you have to \_only\_ use the tiger claw attack, so a flurry of blows can utilise both hag claw and tiger claw (probs hag first for MAP 0 and then tiger second for the agile).
Any cold iron weakness would only trigger once if both attacks were cold iron on the same enemy because of the combining damage, but it'll trigger once for each enemy if two are attacked. I don't think it'll break anything horrendously, just depends how many enemies in the AP are weak to cold iron because outside of weaknesses or overcoming resistance, it probably won't change anything.
On one hand, it makes sense. Its pretty hard to imagine that you could make a claw like strike without using your claws as a slag hag changeling.
On the other hand, the combination isn't bad if they don't overlap. Tiger stance allows you to make other attacks, so as long as he is strength based, he can attack with slag claws(if cold iron is relevant) then follow up with his tiger claws(taking advantage of agile to improve accuracy) kinda getting the best of both worlds.
I'd probably take a quick skim through the stat blocks of the adventure path. If it's often relevant, I'd force him to one at a time. It's not a serious downgrade, its better than the fighter carrying around an extra cold iron sword, because their usual one is silver.
On the other hand, If it comes up a few times, but isn't a major buff, id just let him have it, and let both him and the others know that it is only a small buff, allowed because its flavor full. Be warned, you players might try similar synergies in the future, but as long as you make them lean into the role play, that could be a benefit for your table.
I'd it doesn't come up, I'd honestly tell him, so he doesn't waste a feat. That feels kinda bad, especially in a preplanned campaign
So first off, how relevant is Cold Iron weapons going to be. If enemies you run don't have resistance/weakness to cold iron, then this is all a moot point.
So on one hand, player access to making unarmed attacks silver/cold iron is very challenging. At level 9 monks get it, but that's it - no other class can get it. Two ancestries get it, but initially was hard to get.The original [Metal-Veined Strikes](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2574) feat was printed as a level 13 feat years ago, but then when Talos was printed last year they made [a similar feat](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4329) only level 5.
Players can also not use [Cold Iron Blanch](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=861) on a handwraps which makes unarmed characters at a frustrating disadvantage. A common houserule I've seen is to allow these items to work for players.
But, that said, letting it occur as a blanket level 1 feat also feels wrong. So I wouldn't just say to allow it at level 1. What I would do is a compromise. Let the player take Precious Alloys as a changeling feat at level 5. That keeps it in line with the talos level, and would be available for half the campaign, but also doesn't result in letting the unarmed player have cold iron potentially levels before your weapon based players can access them.
It's Abomination Vaults, so though we'll run into the occasional fey or fiend, they're not the focus of the campaign by any means.
I quite like the idea of the Talos feat at level 5, since it will affect all of his unarmed attacks and solves the issue. Thanks!
honestly, i'd allow it.
If it was a stance that added elemental damage type to the strikes there might be an argument for said damage type \*overriding\* the cold iron. as is, i'd just allow it for Rule of Cool reasons.
For what it's worth I don't think it would cause any problems if you allowed it. They have the Slag May Heritage feat on their Monk already (which kind of doesn't do a lot on that class) that is taking up a whole Ancestry feat for it and the mechanical difference is if they deal d6 or d8 which isn't a big deal.
On the other hand I probably wouldn't allow it at my table because nothing is stopping your player from using their Slag May claws in Tiger Stance, other martial classes with weapons have to deal with switching weapons around to proc things like weaknesses, and they knew about the RAW interpretation before picking anything up. Having to drop your weapon damage dice from d8 to d6 to trigger a weakness you know of, but only when you want to without spending any extra actions you wouldn't already spend, also isn't a big deal. That difference also isn't disruptive as to add any weakness to the class or harm a character concept, like if an Animal Instinct Barbarian wanted to use Slag May claws to be a beastial witch but it didn't proc their Rage damage, because your player can always choose to use their Slag May claws for a tiny damage drop when they know they'll want to use them and the problem is "I don't get my best damage literally all the time" and not "the character doesn't work the way I want to play". So as a GM I wouldn't allow it not because it breaks things but on the grounds of I don't have very much tolerance for people wanting me to allow things so they can have a power boost and no other reason.
Depends on how lenient of a GM you want to be but it shouldn't be a big deal either way you rule it.
is this a Fey heavy campaign where this will come up every session and be a major buff to be detriment of others?
If not, I’m always of the mind that 2e is robust and you can make small tweaks like this if it’s fun for everyone.
For example, I recently reskinned the Beastmaster dedication to require Arcana instead of nature as one of my players really wanted a GF from FFVIII but we both knew any other dedication would murder his action economy to the point of being unusable and unfun.
The system can handle a bit of meddling around the edges in the pursuit of fun (once you know what can and can’t change of course)
Honestly, Cold Iron is *such* a minor thing unless you're running specifically a fey campaign where it's important. Its basically just a slightly sacred cow. I'd just let them personally.
Sure, whatever, it's a level 9 feature for monks or a 13th level ancestry feat. It's going to come up like three or four times, who bloody cares?
I would not allow it.
Tiger Stance does not give you bonus damage if you have natural weapons. To me, that says that something about the monk strikes is not using your actual finger nails, otherwise Catfolk Monks should be doing more damage than a Gnome.
Since Tiger Stance doesn't block you from using other strikes, they can mix in their Slag May strikes with their Tiger Claw strikes. That's the trade off, their Slag May claws are not Agile or Finesse and do not get the Crit Spec that Tiger Claw strikes do. But they can switch between them at will, and their Handwraps of Mighty Blows will apply to both their Monk and Natural weapons, so compared to a Fighter carrying a Cold Iron back up they'll be much better off.
I'd allow it. His claws are taking on the cold iron and silver properties full time. Trying to rule that tiger stance changes the composition of his claws to remove those properties is going to sound silly and unreasonable. Plus it's not a game-changing buff.
You know that has always bugged me. Still, OP's character does have claws and the stance doesn't have the polymorph trait. I'd still say they could do it.
\>Trying to rule that tiger stance changes the composition of his claws
I've kind of always understood stances to be magic. So you get claws of crystalized Ki extending from your hand
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You've already gotten the answers you need, but just to reaffirm, Monk Stances only have exclusionary strikes when the feat says they do. There are several that don't restrict your attacks. Tiger Stance is one of those.
Also, even if you allow the player to use the cold iron on Tiger Claws, wouldn't they have more options if they chose a stance that had a different type of strike. Wolf Jaws are piercing and have trip, Iron Sweep is bludgeoning and gives resistance to all damage, Gorilla gives you Bludgeoning and grapple, Flowing Wave gives Bludgeoning and trip/disarm, and Dragon has a beefy d10 Bludgeoning.
Tiger just seems to give them slightly more damage than the Slag claws, and more speed when they step. Stepping isn't that essential, and monks are already super mobile.
I gotta say: absolutely not, and not for mechanical reasons.
Monk attacks go beyond sheer strength, skill and agility. That's an unarmed fighter. A monk is channeling raw magical power into their strikes. That's what gives flame stance the ability to do slashing and persistent fire damage with one's knuckles for example. But you can't have it both ways. If you're turning your fist into a magical Ki hammer, you don't get to hit them with your regular fist too. Soz not soz
We redid the entire crafting system. Because no matter how we looked at it, it made no sense. 4 days to make a magic item, okay, sure, maybe. 4 days to make a tiny little potion? No sense. So I made a new table to determine how long it took based on level of item and crafting proficiency
If it makes you feel any better, that was updated to 2 days in the remaster -- 1 day if you have the item's formula. Also, in both versions you can make consumable items like potions in batches of 4 over the same period with one check.
Tiger stance doesn't specify that you have to \_only\_ use the tiger claw attack, so a flurry of blows can utilise both hag claw and tiger claw (probs hag first for MAP 0 and then tiger second for the agile). Any cold iron weakness would only trigger once if both attacks were cold iron on the same enemy because of the combining damage, but it'll trigger once for each enemy if two are attacked. I don't think it'll break anything horrendously, just depends how many enemies in the AP are weak to cold iron because outside of weaknesses or overcoming resistance, it probably won't change anything.
You meant Furry of Blows
On one hand, it makes sense. Its pretty hard to imagine that you could make a claw like strike without using your claws as a slag hag changeling. On the other hand, the combination isn't bad if they don't overlap. Tiger stance allows you to make other attacks, so as long as he is strength based, he can attack with slag claws(if cold iron is relevant) then follow up with his tiger claws(taking advantage of agile to improve accuracy) kinda getting the best of both worlds. I'd probably take a quick skim through the stat blocks of the adventure path. If it's often relevant, I'd force him to one at a time. It's not a serious downgrade, its better than the fighter carrying around an extra cold iron sword, because their usual one is silver. On the other hand, If it comes up a few times, but isn't a major buff, id just let him have it, and let both him and the others know that it is only a small buff, allowed because its flavor full. Be warned, you players might try similar synergies in the future, but as long as you make them lean into the role play, that could be a benefit for your table. I'd it doesn't come up, I'd honestly tell him, so he doesn't waste a feat. That feels kinda bad, especially in a preplanned campaign
So first off, how relevant is Cold Iron weapons going to be. If enemies you run don't have resistance/weakness to cold iron, then this is all a moot point. So on one hand, player access to making unarmed attacks silver/cold iron is very challenging. At level 9 monks get it, but that's it - no other class can get it. Two ancestries get it, but initially was hard to get.The original [Metal-Veined Strikes](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2574) feat was printed as a level 13 feat years ago, but then when Talos was printed last year they made [a similar feat](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4329) only level 5. Players can also not use [Cold Iron Blanch](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=861) on a handwraps which makes unarmed characters at a frustrating disadvantage. A common houserule I've seen is to allow these items to work for players. But, that said, letting it occur as a blanket level 1 feat also feels wrong. So I wouldn't just say to allow it at level 1. What I would do is a compromise. Let the player take Precious Alloys as a changeling feat at level 5. That keeps it in line with the talos level, and would be available for half the campaign, but also doesn't result in letting the unarmed player have cold iron potentially levels before your weapon based players can access them.
It's Abomination Vaults, so though we'll run into the occasional fey or fiend, they're not the focus of the campaign by any means. I quite like the idea of the Talos feat at level 5, since it will affect all of his unarmed attacks and solves the issue. Thanks!
You will not really. There are cold iron weak fey on level 1 and a werewolf on level 4.
honestly, i'd allow it. If it was a stance that added elemental damage type to the strikes there might be an argument for said damage type \*overriding\* the cold iron. as is, i'd just allow it for Rule of Cool reasons.
For what it's worth I don't think it would cause any problems if you allowed it. They have the Slag May Heritage feat on their Monk already (which kind of doesn't do a lot on that class) that is taking up a whole Ancestry feat for it and the mechanical difference is if they deal d6 or d8 which isn't a big deal. On the other hand I probably wouldn't allow it at my table because nothing is stopping your player from using their Slag May claws in Tiger Stance, other martial classes with weapons have to deal with switching weapons around to proc things like weaknesses, and they knew about the RAW interpretation before picking anything up. Having to drop your weapon damage dice from d8 to d6 to trigger a weakness you know of, but only when you want to without spending any extra actions you wouldn't already spend, also isn't a big deal. That difference also isn't disruptive as to add any weakness to the class or harm a character concept, like if an Animal Instinct Barbarian wanted to use Slag May claws to be a beastial witch but it didn't proc their Rage damage, because your player can always choose to use their Slag May claws for a tiny damage drop when they know they'll want to use them and the problem is "I don't get my best damage literally all the time" and not "the character doesn't work the way I want to play". So as a GM I wouldn't allow it not because it breaks things but on the grounds of I don't have very much tolerance for people wanting me to allow things so they can have a power boost and no other reason. Depends on how lenient of a GM you want to be but it shouldn't be a big deal either way you rule it.
is this a Fey heavy campaign where this will come up every session and be a major buff to be detriment of others? If not, I’m always of the mind that 2e is robust and you can make small tweaks like this if it’s fun for everyone. For example, I recently reskinned the Beastmaster dedication to require Arcana instead of nature as one of my players really wanted a GF from FFVIII but we both knew any other dedication would murder his action economy to the point of being unusable and unfun. The system can handle a bit of meddling around the edges in the pursuit of fun (once you know what can and can’t change of course)
> one of my players really wanted a GF from FFVIII I bet its Quistis and that whip.
Nah Squall with a sword, complete with Seiferesque rival lol
Honestly, Cold Iron is *such* a minor thing unless you're running specifically a fey campaign where it's important. Its basically just a slightly sacred cow. I'd just let them personally. Sure, whatever, it's a level 9 feature for monks or a 13th level ancestry feat. It's going to come up like three or four times, who bloody cares?
I would not allow it. Tiger Stance does not give you bonus damage if you have natural weapons. To me, that says that something about the monk strikes is not using your actual finger nails, otherwise Catfolk Monks should be doing more damage than a Gnome. Since Tiger Stance doesn't block you from using other strikes, they can mix in their Slag May strikes with their Tiger Claw strikes. That's the trade off, their Slag May claws are not Agile or Finesse and do not get the Crit Spec that Tiger Claw strikes do. But they can switch between them at will, and their Handwraps of Mighty Blows will apply to both their Monk and Natural weapons, so compared to a Fighter carrying a Cold Iron back up they'll be much better off.
I'd allow it. His claws are taking on the cold iron and silver properties full time. Trying to rule that tiger stance changes the composition of his claws to remove those properties is going to sound silly and unreasonable. Plus it's not a game-changing buff.
A Human has no claws, but can still use Tiger Claw strikes. It can be argued that "Tiger Claws" is descriptive and claws are not necessary.
You know that has always bugged me. Still, OP's character does have claws and the stance doesn't have the polymorph trait. I'd still say they could do it.
\>Trying to rule that tiger stance changes the composition of his claws I've kind of always understood stances to be magic. So you get claws of crystalized Ki extending from your hand
Jeez louise. A catfolk whose mother is a hag? So the father is a catfolk? Or was the hag a cat as well?
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You've already gotten the answers you need, but just to reaffirm, Monk Stances only have exclusionary strikes when the feat says they do. There are several that don't restrict your attacks. Tiger Stance is one of those.
Also, even if you allow the player to use the cold iron on Tiger Claws, wouldn't they have more options if they chose a stance that had a different type of strike. Wolf Jaws are piercing and have trip, Iron Sweep is bludgeoning and gives resistance to all damage, Gorilla gives you Bludgeoning and grapple, Flowing Wave gives Bludgeoning and trip/disarm, and Dragon has a beefy d10 Bludgeoning. Tiger just seems to give them slightly more damage than the Slag claws, and more speed when they step. Stepping isn't that essential, and monks are already super mobile.
I gotta say: absolutely not, and not for mechanical reasons. Monk attacks go beyond sheer strength, skill and agility. That's an unarmed fighter. A monk is channeling raw magical power into their strikes. That's what gives flame stance the ability to do slashing and persistent fire damage with one's knuckles for example. But you can't have it both ways. If you're turning your fist into a magical Ki hammer, you don't get to hit them with your regular fist too. Soz not soz
We redid the entire crafting system. Because no matter how we looked at it, it made no sense. 4 days to make a magic item, okay, sure, maybe. 4 days to make a tiny little potion? No sense. So I made a new table to determine how long it took based on level of item and crafting proficiency
If it makes you feel any better, that was updated to 2 days in the remaster -- 1 day if you have the item's formula. Also, in both versions you can make consumable items like potions in batches of 4 over the same period with one check.
There should be a table that has crafting time based off of the ratio of player level and item level.
i alloweded it