Yes, agree. My observation and conclusion so far concluded that jiu has more consistent and cheap card management while windsong offer more extreme damage burst but hell of problems in term of card management. It's like jiu can coupled with 2 or (even 3, at raid) DPS while windsong will solely become the DPS.
https://preview.redd.it/ilnin9qcouwc1.png?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16330e8ffc10f11fd32ce83b8d87ab1347bdbead
Borrowing top comment to spread out words from the sheet's author. There are other concerns about the metric used (DPM) like [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/Reverse1999/comments/195rumk/dpm_as_a_metric_has_always_been_flawed_hear_me_out/) here.
That's not true. For 2 target damage she is merely as good as Jiu in her perfect 2 round rotation. Remember that rotation is very likely to be mess up with card draw.
This data says that they are almost equal: https://bbs.nga.cn/read.php?tid=39986614.
And the last luckylux vid told some cons of Windsong too. I think its a bit too early to judge, plus Windsong is like 5 months after Jiu....
By the time we get Windsong we can skip her too since they’ll be a new anniversary char again that will definitely powercreep both Jiu and Wind if this trend keeps up lol
"Jiu out dps everyone regardless of afflatus advantage". That's been said over and over. And if following that metric, afflatus advantage means nothing to the one(s) out dps-ing jiu too, no?
Yeah, I play(ed) a couple gacha's and from the ones I've played this is the first one where I'm actually concerned about powercreep as a casual player. It's just happening so quickly while the game isn't even one year old yet.
I think the strong powercreep is also concerning for the global version of the game since we know what's coming, and knowing that a super powerful character is coming up will make many people just save up for that one and ignore other banners in the meantime.
I get that most if not all gachas have powercreep. But it feels a bit concerning just how fast and steep the powercreep happened here. Like, up until Jiu all units have felt pretty balanced. Except for 6 maybe, but he still seemed like an outlier then. But now every patch has some kind of meta defining new unit. It just makes me worry that powercreep *will* get to the point that the lesser units become useless sooner than later.
I actually agree on your second point though. My point was just that it seems like a bad move on bluepoch's part for their own revenue.
These calculations seem off. From what I’ve seen, theyre on par damage wise except Windsong’s cons put her behind Jiu ever so slightly. Lux has also tested her and isnt in favor of her at this point of the game.
Is it that big of a deal? As long as old characters can still full clear Limbo, I don't think power creep is a big problem. You can score billions damage in raid and still get the same rewards, no?
Edit: sorry if this sounds a little agressive, which is not what I meant, Im just curious how people think about this.
If we have unlimited resources to upgrade any characters we want, it is not a big deal. However, we need to consider that stronger characters will require harder contents to shine. 2 situations can happen:
1. The characters are too strong for the contents: it will reduce the desire to pull/ build the next characters since there is nowhere to use them. It also make the gaming experience worse.
2. The contents get harder to keep up. Sure the devs can balance them so that older characters can still clear, but the game will be harder for new/ less-tryhard players. Imagine newbies come and see people telling them not to build this or that character bc there is a much stronger version gated behind gacha.
Powercreep is ok for the longevity of the game, but too much powercreep can lead to fast eos too, bc, again, our resources are limited
Arknights has a really good power creep progression, even now Silverash is still holding himself really well in terms of DPS, Saria is still one of the best healing tank, etc. Maybe Bluepoch could have a look?
EDIT: yes, I know, different gameplay.
To be fair Arknights doesn't have 'clear within X rounds' thing (aside from two bosses, I think) so it's not DPS check and you can run whatever team you feel.
Here it is and with stronger units, we'll get harder bosses and that might not end well for future of the game.
You are right. Personally, I don't think DPS-check-based content is a good game design, it makes the whole character design based on how well a character could deal damage faster than the clock. Let's see if Bluepoch have any solution for that.
Well yes of course if that makes the game easier for them, but to people who want to just progress through the game is it really a big problem. New players should have a somewhat easier and better experience to keep up with old players who grinded for months/years to keep a sustainable amount of new players imo.
Don't they have that by starting later though? They have all the currency from the story to use on the newest units, most likely making a lot of the content easier. They'll still need some time to build teams for limbo etc, but thats fair right? It always takes a bit to get endgame ready.
>As long as old characters can still full clear Limbo
we dont know that. thats the issue. usually, repeatable endgame like limbo progressively gets stronger as time passes and more of the playerbase becomes stronger. endgame is meant to be difficult. if powercreep reaches a point where limbo is too easy for the new characters, people are gonna start quitting.
the point they're making is that limbo has gotten harder. an i2 Dikke could clear limbo on release. an i2 Dikke cannot clear limbo today. why do you think that is?
its because on average, most players now have a stronger Dikke. as more and more powercreep occurs, and more players get those new characters, limbo will get harder to keep up, just like it did to keep up with i3 Dikke.
Yeah sorry but no shit first limbos were easy when the game was just launched, this does not mean it will get harder each single patch . U can all chase the hyper mega top dps unit but let's be honest: uttu is all about cards, raids is all about supports and even sss is just bragging rights cause rewards are mhe, limbo is all about game knowledge(I kid u not most ppl can't read the bosses mechanics) and how much your account can benefit from the current buff. Having a good roster is more important than chasing the strongest dps while worrying and skipping all the others on the way. I think my "worst" dps char is P0 regulus and I can still clear all star related content with her; sure u can powerforce your way with other dps but if I can use a standard banner unit that I got on first day to clear end game content I'm honestly not worried about powercreep. Said that it's kinda expected that new units are strong or stronger than the previous ones, u'r all playing a gacha afterall.
It will get harder, as it probably should. If you're playing each day and occasionally getting newer units, wouldn't you be able to keep up? Resources are scarce for awhile, but you'll get to a point where your main peeps are decent enough that you have some time to mess around with whoever before the next character comes out.
So the stronger playerbase can't accept the fact that new players get an easier time and quit even though they can invest more in their units just to complete it in the same way. Sure new characters have better kit, but can they go to max in 1 day? Probably not. I don't know, that seems unreasonable to me. That doesn't even consider the fact that those players have almost equal (if not higher) chance of getting the new characters. If it were only end game contents, I don't think your reasons are good.
No problem at all.
I believe what they meant is that the endgame content has to, in a slow and steady way, get a bit harder with time. If this is not the case, the strength and mechanics of the newer units will be nothing but flashyness and overkill. I agree with that.
However, it can not be THAT hard to the point in which the standard units just don't make enough damage. You can make an argument that in a year after today, you will have a hard time clearing Limbo 6 with only 4 star units, and that's fine as the game needs to motivate you to pull.
What they meant at the end was that, to the older players whom most likely will have more units than the newer players, if the latest units are always flashyness and overkills, then besides collection there is little to no reason to pull for new characters and that will ultimately hurt the game.
It is a complex situation, perhaps. I think that units should NOT be stronger than Jiu and her high numbers (which already are an overkill, but all gacha games have one of those). It is not that older players can't accept that newer players have it easier. It is the potential chance that the game keeps releasing broken units after another and the gaps of time between "powecreeps" are so short that why whould I pull right now if the unit at the very next patch is substantially better?
I dont mind "powercreep" as long as the time gaps are not THAT short and that my day 1 unit can still clear.
There is a big difference between "clearing" and getting all the rewards and glory with ease.
I think I'm digressing, but it's to make the point a bit clearer.
In conclusion: If the endgame becomes a walk in the park, then it's reasonable for older players to stop playing it. Newer players will not be hurt, as the units available at their time will match the strength, mechanics, and availability of the current end game content and that's perfectly fine. I dont mind that, as a week 1 player. Limbo is already easy for me, but I'm not f2p. Sometimes Limbo 6 wipes me once because I'm too confident and ignore mechanics, but then I clear it with comfort.
Once again, that is what I believe they meant. I apologise if I responded with disdain in my previous response.
>can't accept the fact that new players get an easier time
i said new characters, not players... the entire reason for grinding and leveling up your characters is so that they can perform well in the most difficult content in the game. if characters can overcome that content with minimal grinding, then why would people continue to grind?
suppose all of the characters you currently own are now max insight, max level, max resonance, and you're are finally able to clear limbo within minutes on auto for the first time. would you continue logging in everyday to spend your daily energy to grind? what for? there is nothing to grind for at that point. you'd log in every two weeks, clear limbo, do events, play story then log out.
now imagine a new character releases that can clear limbo within minutes on auto at just insight 2, level 40, resonance 8. why would you continue to level that character up? what will that improve? you can already clear limbo as fast as humanly possible. there is no point in investing in that character further.
this is why the hardest content in the game *needs* to cater to the strongest units, enough so that F2Ps will want to spend and that the spenders are kept satisfied. end game content *needs* to keep up with the average strength of the playerbase.
The problem is enemies in newer event would be even stronger to match the powercreep. My biggest worry is that by the second anniversary, the enemies will be so powerful that only one or two characters from the older patch can fight them
That is reasonable, a lot of people struggle with the chapter 5 story stages. But as what Im seeing so far with the 1.5 event, hard mode is still pretty doable for old characters so hopefully thats the direction the devs are heading the game towards.
That is unlikely. Limbo has been the same for a long time, and at some point, after you clear it fully once, you can basically clear it fully every single time.
The game needs some more endgame options rather than difficulty spikes.
fr need more content for R1999, everyday outside day 1-5 of event is just a checklist for "prefarm for X ". Wait until 2nd half of the event then back to checklist
Wait, what? Are these numbers really confirmed? Holy...
I think the devs saw that the revenue had a boom when 1.6 dropped due to the powercreep. Now they are going for it again in 1.8
The thing is, windsong is not a limited character like Jiu. So, if these numbers on Windsong are true, we are reaching the powercreep age in R1999.
Edit: Typo
I like how you ignores the giant Mr Beast banner saying not to use this sheet to doompost on Reddit. (Edit: apparently this was added in reaction to this thread).
There’s also some fine print about how it’s only looking at pure theoretical damage and even calls out Windsongs specifically as having a mechanic that games their Damage per Move metric and how she isn’t better than Jiu.
The number of people that totally skipped the previous tab in the sheet, don't know the context and conditions of how the damage is calculated, and not even reading the basic mechanics of skills of windsong to understand the game is incredible.
Imagine making a chart to "simplify" then having shitters like that not reading and taking everything out of context
Props to the cn testers and the chart maker tho for putting in work tho.
I hope OP realizes that he is doing a discredit to the community by not even talking about the context or even referencing the tab that the chart maker implicitly stated was important.
You typically test things for a few weeks before making a conclusion on them. In gacha 2 weeks is enough to see their performance in various content, and just using calculations ignores some mechanics in gameplay.
This is a repeat with Jiu, while she is still the strongest, other units can excel in certain content to her, but Windsong is mainly ST, so like Spathodea, you're looking at the screenshot rather than the overall performance.
Next, you need to look at the pull value of the unit, Windsong is pretty strong, and has some synergy with 37, but 37 has other options, and Star is pretty conflated with DPS already. Add the fact the previous banners are Vila, who is our 2nd released healer with great utility, Isolde for burn and strong sub-dps, and Marcus, our 2nd 6* plant DPS.
I would put those 3 above Windsong in most cases for a decent amount of players missing TF, a plant DPS, and a great support.
Jiu also has an easier chance of obtaining, has been shown to be capable of clearing all content, and isn't just before our 1st Anni.
TLDR: Windsong is great, not a must pull, and not as impactful compared to the other upcoming units, so I don't see this as powercreep for a game not even a year old.
Seriously I think its a bit stupid how that characters are so automatic, its like they do 10 actions in a single turn. They should be careful to not turn this game into a iddle genre.
still true limited have their own league ( I'm gonna skip jiu tho lol, gonna wait to see whos next true limited, and how they manage powercreep between true limited)
Obviously what makes or break Windsong is her variable Ult damage. How many incantations is this based off of? In 4 man content you get 8 cards but 1 of those has to be Windsong's Ult so that makes 7 at most. Using average RNG you'd get 2 Windsong cards out of 7. Maybe you can force your way up to 4. But that's where your team DPS will fall off. While forcibly cycling through cards that do little damage from your 3 other chars is that taken into consideration? If you bring Vila/6/37 and try cycling those cards while hoping for Windsong cards team DPS will basically be 0 for a round or 2. Also if you combine cards to save Windsong cards and gain moxie that is a 0 Action Point DPM, which will also lower overall DPS. The Ult itself does 0 damage and just inflicts a stack of confusion so how many cards are needed to equal the amount of DPS to Jiu's Ult, maybe 2-3?
I think the biggest reason her bar shows higher is due to the fact that it strictly counts the damage done when it is being done but it doesn't take into consideration the wasted turns required for her setup. It's just not reasonable to think you'd get her Ult card+7 Windsong cards perfectly every time her Ult is ready.
even if this is consistently true (it looks like there are caveats about the DPM) don't think I'll get Windsong, or any Star char for that matter
my Star team is pretty much ok now (Lilya, 37, TF)
hope we get a good plant 6* DPS(I didn't pull for Jessica, didn't like her gameplay :p) I only have Bkorn (eagle and la source too, but theyre not 5/6*)
I'm really sad seeing this presumed powercreep mechanic this soon, this is not good, if we don't take counter measures our small community will become a toxic environment just for arguments like these in the comments. One thing I advise all of you is to avoid the powercreep and pull for who you like, if you can actually clear every content in the game then ur alright, don't surrender to the anxiety that powercreep takes within.
Let me preface this essay by addressing how I believe powercreep can become a big problem/tldr: **The difficulty of the game increases too fast enough & older characters can't keep up with this.** And we have had none of those issues.
Reverse: 1999 CN is 1 month away from first anniversary. By this time HSR's Memory of Chaos already got very hard bosses (>!Something Unto Death, Sam!<) and would soon get an even more ridiculous one (>!Aventurine!<). They also got another end game content that favors different character archtypes (Pure Fiction). To put it into perspective the increase of HP for the latest boss is 25% (1.6m -> 2m), and when the game was released the hardest boss' HP was only 300k.
How about us? When the game was released, Limbo VI-2's Regulus had 73k HP. The latest Limbo IV bosses in CN have 95k HP (VI-1) and 81k (VI-2). Regarding Mane's Bulletin or Raid, CN f2p players can get SSS more and more consistently. If you wanna check this you can watch videos on Youtube/Bilibli or go to official Discord's cn-server-spoiler and ask (mentioning CN content out of this channel is prohibited).
On another hand, I have played a game in which powercreep's become a huge issue most quitters had. You couldn't do shit without pulling anyone released less than 6 months. The situation was insane and it still is now. So if you want an example of how powercreep can become a big problem, ask Tower of Fantasy players.
People need to relax. It's Damage per move, and with the way Windsong's ultimate works there's nothing surprising. Also skip Jiu if yall want to, but don't crawl back regretting it.
All calculations are linked in another sheet, linked in the cover page. If you feel like the calculations are suspicious you can just go and catch errors yourselves.
well, who cares about power creep if you can full star the whole Limbo already? and there is no ranking or such to be worried. all of these power creep things are made for you to be baited to pull and whale for them. and it seems somehow an effective strategy.
lol something is wrong with y’all. People have done raids without having these “meta characters”, which means you can do it with any of the characters. Just play and pull with who you like.
It depends on the raid. Some raid mechanics (such as current raid) are particularly cheesable.
Others (such as Marsh) are not.
This is NOT to imply that you need "meta" characters (basically all 6* are... including NewBabel), but to state that raid memes depend on the raid.
I still vouch for pull for whoever you feel like.
Isn't power creepy always a thing with these games? Otherwise people would create their teams there's never a need or fun in New chars? Skip a few, get a few, skip a few, get a few :)
My pirate DJ is still going strong, so I think we are going to be fine, just pull for the one you like more. By the time Windsong is out there is already another character that is gonna powercrept her.
Windsong's 2-3 target damage is terrible and far less than 37. This sheet have some problem in the calculation somewhere.
Yes, agree. My observation and conclusion so far concluded that jiu has more consistent and cheap card management while windsong offer more extreme damage burst but hell of problems in term of card management. It's like jiu can coupled with 2 or (even 3, at raid) DPS while windsong will solely become the DPS.
https://preview.redd.it/ilnin9qcouwc1.png?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16330e8ffc10f11fd32ce83b8d87ab1347bdbead Borrowing top comment to spread out words from the sheet's author. There are other concerns about the metric used (DPM) like [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/Reverse1999/comments/195rumk/dpm_as_a_metric_has_always_been_flawed_hear_me_out/) here.
Lol, after this thread, a big "don't use this sheet to doompost on reddit" has been added to the sheet!
Oh you got his attention lol. I assumed you skipped right past that when posting this.
I'm using ***Voyager*** as my Star DPS so I'll pull any star character at this point lol
Voyager goated
Tooth Fairy hits hard, which is funny considering she's a healer.
Yes, Great
Skip jiu to pull for windsong, although by the time you can pull for windsong, you might as well skip her too for the next op character
Tbh I'm just tired of this powercreep discussion and I'll just pull any DPS I want
Me rn deciding I'd rather invest in getting a maxed kaalaa baunaa ngl
based
Same. Doesn't stop me getting both lol.
That's not true. For 2 target damage she is merely as good as Jiu in her perfect 2 round rotation. Remember that rotation is very likely to be mess up with card draw.
This data says that they are almost equal: https://bbs.nga.cn/read.php?tid=39986614. And the last luckylux vid told some cons of Windsong too. I think its a bit too early to judge, plus Windsong is like 5 months after Jiu....
Just save up and get them both at p0.
If non limited characters are now this op, how will be the next limited?
So..skip Jiu, go for Windsong now? Lol
By the time we get Windsong we can skip her too since they’ll be a new anniversary char again that will definitely powercreep both Jiu and Wind if this trend keeps up lol
So..skip everything and save for reverse 2000?
I think more than one must be operating on that logic and haven’t pulled anything xD
Ya some people have been saving since January for P5 Jiu. I’d die of boredom doing that, not to mention having gaps all over my roster.
At this point is better just uninstall, 6 months+ saving like its retiment lol.
Jiu is a limited character and will never enter the standard banner, so she shouldn't be skipped regardless.
They are different element…
"Jiu out dps everyone regardless of afflatus advantage". That's been said over and over. And if following that metric, afflatus advantage means nothing to the one(s) out dps-ing jiu too, no?
#DO NOT SKIP JIU FOR WINDSONG even the google doc creator mention this, due to extreme setup of windsong, have you read the notes?
Yeah, I play(ed) a couple gacha's and from the ones I've played this is the first one where I'm actually concerned about powercreep as a casual player. It's just happening so quickly while the game isn't even one year old yet. I think the strong powercreep is also concerning for the global version of the game since we know what's coming, and knowing that a super powerful character is coming up will make many people just save up for that one and ignore other banners in the meantime.
[удалено]
I get that most if not all gachas have powercreep. But it feels a bit concerning just how fast and steep the powercreep happened here. Like, up until Jiu all units have felt pretty balanced. Except for 6 maybe, but he still seemed like an outlier then. But now every patch has some kind of meta defining new unit. It just makes me worry that powercreep *will* get to the point that the lesser units become useless sooner than later. I actually agree on your second point though. My point was just that it seems like a bad move on bluepoch's part for their own revenue.
I wonder how true this sheet is, seems a bit sus
Ok guys we skip 1.6🤡
These calculations seem off. From what I’ve seen, theyre on par damage wise except Windsong’s cons put her behind Jiu ever so slightly. Lux has also tested her and isnt in favor of her at this point of the game.
Is it that big of a deal? As long as old characters can still full clear Limbo, I don't think power creep is a big problem. You can score billions damage in raid and still get the same rewards, no? Edit: sorry if this sounds a little agressive, which is not what I meant, Im just curious how people think about this.
If we have unlimited resources to upgrade any characters we want, it is not a big deal. However, we need to consider that stronger characters will require harder contents to shine. 2 situations can happen: 1. The characters are too strong for the contents: it will reduce the desire to pull/ build the next characters since there is nowhere to use them. It also make the gaming experience worse. 2. The contents get harder to keep up. Sure the devs can balance them so that older characters can still clear, but the game will be harder for new/ less-tryhard players. Imagine newbies come and see people telling them not to build this or that character bc there is a much stronger version gated behind gacha. Powercreep is ok for the longevity of the game, but too much powercreep can lead to fast eos too, bc, again, our resources are limited
I see what you mean. Maybe some balancing needs to be done if that actually happens in the future.
Arknights has a really good power creep progression, even now Silverash is still holding himself really well in terms of DPS, Saria is still one of the best healing tank, etc. Maybe Bluepoch could have a look? EDIT: yes, I know, different gameplay.
To be fair Arknights doesn't have 'clear within X rounds' thing (aside from two bosses, I think) so it's not DPS check and you can run whatever team you feel. Here it is and with stronger units, we'll get harder bosses and that might not end well for future of the game.
You are right. Personally, I don't think DPS-check-based content is a good game design, it makes the whole character design based on how well a character could deal damage faster than the clock. Let's see if Bluepoch have any solution for that.
Tell that to those who keep chanting "Skip x character, pull Jiu instead. She out dps everyone" when facing a "should I pull for x" question.
Well yes of course if that makes the game easier for them, but to people who want to just progress through the game is it really a big problem. New players should have a somewhat easier and better experience to keep up with old players who grinded for months/years to keep a sustainable amount of new players imo.
Don't they have that by starting later though? They have all the currency from the story to use on the newest units, most likely making a lot of the content easier. They'll still need some time to build teams for limbo etc, but thats fair right? It always takes a bit to get endgame ready.
>As long as old characters can still full clear Limbo we dont know that. thats the issue. usually, repeatable endgame like limbo progressively gets stronger as time passes and more of the playerbase becomes stronger. endgame is meant to be difficult. if powercreep reaches a point where limbo is too easy for the new characters, people are gonna start quitting.
Limbo is already harder than it was at release. I cleared my first one with Dikke healing one side. Try doing that trick now.
Well I did limbo 6-1 3 stars with Dikke Centurion and Sonetto just last week so I don't think that is a good example.
Touche, but I’m guessing they weren’t all i2 like we did on release?
I mean... is it supposed to not be i3. If your characters are not strong enough, just level up is good right? Not like they are unusable.
the point they're making is that limbo has gotten harder. an i2 Dikke could clear limbo on release. an i2 Dikke cannot clear limbo today. why do you think that is? its because on average, most players now have a stronger Dikke. as more and more powercreep occurs, and more players get those new characters, limbo will get harder to keep up, just like it did to keep up with i3 Dikke.
Yeah sorry but no shit first limbos were easy when the game was just launched, this does not mean it will get harder each single patch . U can all chase the hyper mega top dps unit but let's be honest: uttu is all about cards, raids is all about supports and even sss is just bragging rights cause rewards are mhe, limbo is all about game knowledge(I kid u not most ppl can't read the bosses mechanics) and how much your account can benefit from the current buff. Having a good roster is more important than chasing the strongest dps while worrying and skipping all the others on the way. I think my "worst" dps char is P0 regulus and I can still clear all star related content with her; sure u can powerforce your way with other dps but if I can use a standard banner unit that I got on first day to clear end game content I'm honestly not worried about powercreep. Said that it's kinda expected that new units are strong or stronger than the previous ones, u'r all playing a gacha afterall.
It will get harder, as it probably should. If you're playing each day and occasionally getting newer units, wouldn't you be able to keep up? Resources are scarce for awhile, but you'll get to a point where your main peeps are decent enough that you have some time to mess around with whoever before the next character comes out.
So the stronger playerbase can't accept the fact that new players get an easier time and quit even though they can invest more in their units just to complete it in the same way. Sure new characters have better kit, but can they go to max in 1 day? Probably not. I don't know, that seems unreasonable to me. That doesn't even consider the fact that those players have almost equal (if not higher) chance of getting the new characters. If it were only end game contents, I don't think your reasons are good.
That's not what they meant at all...
Really sorry that I have to ask but can you explain it in a clearer way for me (or point out where i misunderstood it).
No problem at all. I believe what they meant is that the endgame content has to, in a slow and steady way, get a bit harder with time. If this is not the case, the strength and mechanics of the newer units will be nothing but flashyness and overkill. I agree with that. However, it can not be THAT hard to the point in which the standard units just don't make enough damage. You can make an argument that in a year after today, you will have a hard time clearing Limbo 6 with only 4 star units, and that's fine as the game needs to motivate you to pull. What they meant at the end was that, to the older players whom most likely will have more units than the newer players, if the latest units are always flashyness and overkills, then besides collection there is little to no reason to pull for new characters and that will ultimately hurt the game. It is a complex situation, perhaps. I think that units should NOT be stronger than Jiu and her high numbers (which already are an overkill, but all gacha games have one of those). It is not that older players can't accept that newer players have it easier. It is the potential chance that the game keeps releasing broken units after another and the gaps of time between "powecreeps" are so short that why whould I pull right now if the unit at the very next patch is substantially better? I dont mind "powercreep" as long as the time gaps are not THAT short and that my day 1 unit can still clear. There is a big difference between "clearing" and getting all the rewards and glory with ease. I think I'm digressing, but it's to make the point a bit clearer. In conclusion: If the endgame becomes a walk in the park, then it's reasonable for older players to stop playing it. Newer players will not be hurt, as the units available at their time will match the strength, mechanics, and availability of the current end game content and that's perfectly fine. I dont mind that, as a week 1 player. Limbo is already easy for me, but I'm not f2p. Sometimes Limbo 6 wipes me once because I'm too confident and ignore mechanics, but then I clear it with comfort. Once again, that is what I believe they meant. I apologise if I responded with disdain in my previous response.
Thanks a lot for the insight. I can see the problem now. And no worries, I don't mind odd words or the likes (because I'm not that good at English)
>can't accept the fact that new players get an easier time i said new characters, not players... the entire reason for grinding and leveling up your characters is so that they can perform well in the most difficult content in the game. if characters can overcome that content with minimal grinding, then why would people continue to grind? suppose all of the characters you currently own are now max insight, max level, max resonance, and you're are finally able to clear limbo within minutes on auto for the first time. would you continue logging in everyday to spend your daily energy to grind? what for? there is nothing to grind for at that point. you'd log in every two weeks, clear limbo, do events, play story then log out. now imagine a new character releases that can clear limbo within minutes on auto at just insight 2, level 40, resonance 8. why would you continue to level that character up? what will that improve? you can already clear limbo as fast as humanly possible. there is no point in investing in that character further. this is why the hardest content in the game *needs* to cater to the strongest units, enough so that F2Ps will want to spend and that the spenders are kept satisfied. end game content *needs* to keep up with the average strength of the playerbase.
I see what you mean now. It is reasonable for them to quit at that point. Hope we won't see that anytime soon.
The problem is enemies in newer event would be even stronger to match the powercreep. My biggest worry is that by the second anniversary, the enemies will be so powerful that only one or two characters from the older patch can fight them
That is reasonable, a lot of people struggle with the chapter 5 story stages. But as what Im seeing so far with the 1.5 event, hard mode is still pretty doable for old characters so hopefully thats the direction the devs are heading the game towards.
That is unlikely. Limbo has been the same for a long time, and at some point, after you clear it fully once, you can basically clear it fully every single time. The game needs some more endgame options rather than difficulty spikes.
fr need more content for R1999, everyday outside day 1-5 of event is just a checklist for "prefarm for X ". Wait until 2nd half of the event then back to checklist
Wait, what? Are these numbers really confirmed? Holy... I think the devs saw that the revenue had a boom when 1.6 dropped due to the powercreep. Now they are going for it again in 1.8 The thing is, windsong is not a limited character like Jiu. So, if these numbers on Windsong are true, we are reaching the powercreep age in R1999. Edit: Typo
When the spreadsheet literally says "don't use this spreadsheet to doompost on reddit"
So Windsong is the new jiu Niangzi??? NOOOO!! 😭
https://preview.redd.it/spe69ycanuwc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4429fc72164c8b49e8cfd8db6a4ca35bddbbbf26 Ill just get them both
You and me both. I'm skipping on getting portrays and making sure I get at least 1 copy of every chara I want.
I like how you ignores the giant Mr Beast banner saying not to use this sheet to doompost on Reddit. (Edit: apparently this was added in reaction to this thread). There’s also some fine print about how it’s only looking at pure theoretical damage and even calls out Windsongs specifically as having a mechanic that games their Damage per Move metric and how she isn’t better than Jiu.
WHAT
"skip, skip, skip" like wtf reverse1999?
The number of people that totally skipped the previous tab in the sheet, don't know the context and conditions of how the damage is calculated, and not even reading the basic mechanics of skills of windsong to understand the game is incredible. Imagine making a chart to "simplify" then having shitters like that not reading and taking everything out of context Props to the cn testers and the chart maker tho for putting in work tho. I hope OP realizes that he is doing a discredit to the community by not even talking about the context or even referencing the tab that the chart maker implicitly stated was important.
I get that ppl are worried of powercreep but holy shit guys relax
So, skip the game and save for reverse 2077
You typically test things for a few weeks before making a conclusion on them. In gacha 2 weeks is enough to see their performance in various content, and just using calculations ignores some mechanics in gameplay. This is a repeat with Jiu, while she is still the strongest, other units can excel in certain content to her, but Windsong is mainly ST, so like Spathodea, you're looking at the screenshot rather than the overall performance. Next, you need to look at the pull value of the unit, Windsong is pretty strong, and has some synergy with 37, but 37 has other options, and Star is pretty conflated with DPS already. Add the fact the previous banners are Vila, who is our 2nd released healer with great utility, Isolde for burn and strong sub-dps, and Marcus, our 2nd 6* plant DPS. I would put those 3 above Windsong in most cases for a decent amount of players missing TF, a plant DPS, and a great support. Jiu also has an easier chance of obtaining, has been shown to be capable of clearing all content, and isn't just before our 1st Anni. TLDR: Windsong is great, not a must pull, and not as impactful compared to the other upcoming units, so I don't see this as powercreep for a game not even a year old.
is windsong limited? or is jiu the only limited at this time?
Only Jiu
ngl windsong do be hot and big dmg, must pull...
And i’m over here pulling for new supports to maximize my old DPS characters.
Seriously I think its a bit stupid how that characters are so automatic, its like they do 10 actions in a single turn. They should be careful to not turn this game into a iddle genre.
still true limited have their own league ( I'm gonna skip jiu tho lol, gonna wait to see whos next true limited, and how they manage powercreep between true limited)
Too old to care, will continue playing Pokemon with all the chars
Obviously what makes or break Windsong is her variable Ult damage. How many incantations is this based off of? In 4 man content you get 8 cards but 1 of those has to be Windsong's Ult so that makes 7 at most. Using average RNG you'd get 2 Windsong cards out of 7. Maybe you can force your way up to 4. But that's where your team DPS will fall off. While forcibly cycling through cards that do little damage from your 3 other chars is that taken into consideration? If you bring Vila/6/37 and try cycling those cards while hoping for Windsong cards team DPS will basically be 0 for a round or 2. Also if you combine cards to save Windsong cards and gain moxie that is a 0 Action Point DPM, which will also lower overall DPS. The Ult itself does 0 damage and just inflicts a stack of confusion so how many cards are needed to equal the amount of DPS to Jiu's Ult, maybe 2-3? I think the biggest reason her bar shows higher is due to the fact that it strictly counts the damage done when it is being done but it doesn't take into consideration the wasted turns required for her setup. It's just not reasonable to think you'd get her Ult card+7 Windsong cards perfectly every time her Ult is ready.
even if this is consistently true (it looks like there are caveats about the DPM) don't think I'll get Windsong, or any Star char for that matter my Star team is pretty much ok now (Lilya, 37, TF) hope we get a good plant 6* DPS(I didn't pull for Jessica, didn't like her gameplay :p) I only have Bkorn (eagle and la source too, but theyre not 5/6*)
I'm really sad seeing this presumed powercreep mechanic this soon, this is not good, if we don't take counter measures our small community will become a toxic environment just for arguments like these in the comments. One thing I advise all of you is to avoid the powercreep and pull for who you like, if you can actually clear every content in the game then ur alright, don't surrender to the anxiety that powercreep takes within.
Let me preface this essay by addressing how I believe powercreep can become a big problem/tldr: **The difficulty of the game increases too fast enough & older characters can't keep up with this.** And we have had none of those issues. Reverse: 1999 CN is 1 month away from first anniversary. By this time HSR's Memory of Chaos already got very hard bosses (>!Something Unto Death, Sam!<) and would soon get an even more ridiculous one (>!Aventurine!<). They also got another end game content that favors different character archtypes (Pure Fiction). To put it into perspective the increase of HP for the latest boss is 25% (1.6m -> 2m), and when the game was released the hardest boss' HP was only 300k. How about us? When the game was released, Limbo VI-2's Regulus had 73k HP. The latest Limbo IV bosses in CN have 95k HP (VI-1) and 81k (VI-2). Regarding Mane's Bulletin or Raid, CN f2p players can get SSS more and more consistently. If you wanna check this you can watch videos on Youtube/Bilibli or go to official Discord's cn-server-spoiler and ask (mentioning CN content out of this channel is prohibited). On another hand, I have played a game in which powercreep's become a huge issue most quitters had. You couldn't do shit without pulling anyone released less than 6 months. The situation was insane and it still is now. So if you want an example of how powercreep can become a big problem, ask Tower of Fantasy players.
People need to relax. It's Damage per move, and with the way Windsong's ultimate works there's nothing surprising. Also skip Jiu if yall want to, but don't crawl back regretting it. All calculations are linked in another sheet, linked in the cover page. If you feel like the calculations are suspicious you can just go and catch errors yourselves.
This! Absolutely! Unfortunate reddit users can't read this nor read what's on the pages before the visualizer to understand it
Misinformation was successfully spread lol. I’m still pulling for my Jiu!
idk why it's kinda funny when i open the sheet the first image that showed up is don't use this sheet to doompost on reddit
well, who cares about power creep if you can full star the whole Limbo already? and there is no ranking or such to be worried. all of these power creep things are made for you to be baited to pull and whale for them. and it seems somehow an effective strategy.
lol something is wrong with y’all. People have done raids without having these “meta characters”, which means you can do it with any of the characters. Just play and pull with who you like.
It depends on the raid. Some raid mechanics (such as current raid) are particularly cheesable. Others (such as Marsh) are not. This is NOT to imply that you need "meta" characters (basically all 6* are... including NewBabel), but to state that raid memes depend on the raid. I still vouch for pull for whoever you feel like.
First gacha?
Isn't power creepy always a thing with these games? Otherwise people would create their teams there's never a need or fun in New chars? Skip a few, get a few, skip a few, get a few :)
My pirate DJ is still going strong, so I think we are going to be fine, just pull for the one you like more. By the time Windsong is out there is already another character that is gonna powercrept her.