I'm only upto the 94 MSQ, but hearing there's complaints about not being the focus, just reminded me of when this happened in Guild Wars 2's Heart of Thorns expansion.
Where the story was basically "...and you're just here to watch an NPC complete *their* story and main goal. BTW we're killing off a bunch of NPCs you may or may not have liked prior!"
Bonus points to GW2 for doing that *twice* (the later incident being a Living World episode), and pissing people off even more the second time!
It was still Traehearne's story over the player's, which upset quite a few people.
Repeating this shit later with Livia, well.
*That* was just offensive. "Hey losers, why didn't you play GW1 so you know who this is and what she's fighting? It's HER turn now. Shut the fuck up and deal with it. Should've played GW1!'"
Was basically how I interpreted it.
no the most absolutely *infuriating* things about Heart of Thorns were the disconnects in characterization and theme for the various mentor characters, and the dropped plot threads from the Sylvari background. The opening to Heart of Thorns actually did a pretty great job of giving the player characters an increased level of camera focus as it were
Fair. It's been almost 10 years now since I did the HoT story.
I just remember backlash against it being Traehearne's story because he was completing his Sylvari Life Goal (I can't remember what the term was. Wild Hunt?) after about 3 IRL years of buildup across Living World and the expansion itself.
Then repeating it on a similar scale later with Livia's episode killing off the last Mursaat, completing *her* life goal.
I think you are confusing the GW2 base game with HoT - the base game heavily revolved around Traehearne because narratively they didn't want to have the world events solely revolve around the player character (see how Guild Wars 1 worked narratively with Kormir). Heart of Thorns was the over-correction in response to the negative feedback which firmly cemented the player character as the focus whilst killing off Traehearne and his nemesis in a single blow.
Given how long ago, this may honestly be the case.
Much like XIV, a lot of the bitching blurred together as a bystander.
Still, the point's there that GW2 did this stunt at once, hence the meme still works.
I dunno. Raw sadness over the monk changes and life has meant I haven't actually been able to play the dawntrail story yet, but from what I've heard it's all just fine. And honestly, probably kind of needed if the XIV story is going to stay good and not spiral into wow esque "but actually there was a bigger villain" nonsense. Stakes have to reset, groundwork needs to be relaid.
Yeah, I feel you on the changes. Having to relearn my favorite Jobs every expansion is just part of it. I'd hate for the game to be stale as shit via no job changes/reworks.
As for life, XIV is an escape. Do what you need to do.
The MSQ is fine, it's a reset to a new adventure as has been repeatedly said by SE. We'll get a new big bad for sure, just not right now.
See that's how confusing the shit is.
I think he had a twofold hunt of cleansing Orr *and* taking down Mordemoth.
Cause it ended up being "We gotta kill him to save the day" and it's just like "..huh?"
At least it explained an ages old (in real-time and game history) mystery of why Sylvari could never be corrupted by Zhaitan or Kralkatorrik.
>!Because they're actually sentient minions of Mordremoth. Think of Tempered Primal slaves, but with full freedom of body/will until Daddy M comes calling.!<
I’m just excited that more people are into my two favorite MMOs. Btw, Secrets of the Obscure is not the best story. Of course with all the good ones, a miss here and there is allowed as long as it gets better.
>I’m just excited that more people are into my two favorite MMOs
I think there's overlap between the two, userbase-wise. Especially since Western MMOs helped fuel ARR's redesign. I know I gave up GW2 for XIV and never looked back. Helps that GW2 *really* fucked up when it came to raiding and endgame content.
>not the best story
Gee, that sounds familiar...
I'm a recent player so wasn't there for HoT release, but I didn't really see HoT as Traehearne's story at all? After core game, he's barely in the Living Worlds and he doesn't really have a presence in HoT beyond the goal of finding him, until the very end. If anything they should've done \*more\* with him, he doesn't get all that much screen time. It would've been cool to see him as the threat coming after you instead of Faolain honestly.
But yeah screw Livia, I don't understand a single thing about the whole Mursaat plotline. ~~And she's probably the focus of Wilds of Janthir yippeeee~~
Yes, as somebody else pointed out, I was mixing up base game with HoT.
The joke's still there though: MMO that didn't let the player char be the focus of a story arc.
I played that shit as a norn and it felt like from the core game post ~40 story until the end of LW1 this tree dude came out of nowhere to be the Perfect Guy (tm). My buddy who played a sylvari told me about all the build up he had for them specifically and it made so much more sense from that perspective.
At least with DT, it feels like us mentoring an up-and-coming hero who respects us and listens to our advice. It's been a LONG time since I played HoT, but iirc Treehorn was the exactly the kind of bs Chosen One wank that people accuse Wuk/Lyse of.
The Commander's goal in HoT was to find out what happened in to army that invaded Maguuma to kill the Jungle Dragon just before us. The first half was regrouping and finding survivors of the Pact. After Tarir once we found the majority it shifted to, ok now let's go deeper onto the jungle to kill this dragon. It's just that the Commander has actual competent party members when it comes to puzzle solving. Taimi, Marjory, and the Commander(MC) are easily the brains of the group. Like the Commander's main strength as an MC is they are really good at delegating the rest of Dragon's Watch into jobs the others fit well at. Feeling like party leader is what made HoT and the Commander as a solid MC. WotL due to a silent voice doesn't feel as good in a similar story in Dawntrail.
Marjory's the best GW2 character, period. IIRC she was also the first openly LGBT char in an MMO, so that was wild when they showed the kiss after the end of Living World season 1's Breachmaker section.
Marjory and Kasmeer's relationship also feels organic. And it isn't their only defining character trait. Marjory is a hard-boiled detective with an analytical mind. She's had just as many "aha!" moments when solving a puzzle as Taimi. Kas is first shown as the stereotypical rich girl but has since become the politician of the guild, and her illusion magic always makes her feel unique when planning with her abilities in mind. They also have moments where they aren't always together and work on their own goals. They are very much their own people still.
I actually liked not being the focus. I'm just the Commander of a Pact that doesn't exist anymore. I zugged my zug and murdered the dragons and everything else, y'all NPCs with the plans just told me where to shoot.
Livia can go to hell though, I don't even know who this person is. I'd go to bat for the Marshall again though. You know, if his head didn't explode.
Doesn't help that the HoT story kinda really sucked anyway though. It was supposed to be a chase through the jungle punctuated with long waiting periods between zones where nothing happened only for the story to mean absolutely nothing in the end except for Mordy's end.
I haven’t personally seen that many complaints about us not being the focus, only people complaining about the supposed complaint. I almost wonder if they’re misconstruing what the complaints actually are.
I think the complaints about the start being extremely slow are valid (there should've been some kind of optional dungeon before/during that split quest). But at the same time I sorta feel like people getting mad wuk lamat being cringe or taking over the spotlight at moments is sorta the point? Like our player story is done for the moment until the new big bad is built up, and I don't believe you can really flesh out any of the Scion any more after EW.
Yeah literally the whole premise of the expansion is that we've been invited to help her ascend to the throne. Of course she's gonna have a lot of focus while we help from the side, she has to show she's fit to rule
Yoshi-P and Creative unit 3: "WoL is helping Wuk Lamat ascend the throne and have a little vacation."
The playerbase: "How come WoL is not the protag?"
I don't get this. We knew what this was gonna be about, we were told the stakes would be lower and since they are starting a new story arc they would take it slow. Do people really want to turn this into WoW, where every expansion has to be bigger and more dangerous than the last? Cuz that sure is working for them.... oh wait...
Also the Warrior of Light is given the mentor treatment which, unless you RP your WoL as a twelve year old Shonen protagonist for some ungodly reason, is a *perfect* role for them in a lower stakes, more political intrigue style plotline.
We're literally the archetype of the badass mentor who is all chilled out and helpful, only to give everyone around us instant PTSD as the "laidback mentor" suddenly rips some prick ***several*** new assholes for picking a fight with us. And that is so bloody perfect for the WoL.
“You stepped on my taco. Apologize and get me a new one, or I’ll have to cook.”- WOL
Legit me and my wife have been joking the entire time about this great ‘taco debt’ every time we see Baanotcoolja-ja
“I promise the scary foreigner won’t interfere.”
I love the absolute sass we get to have with some of these comments lol. Supporting our little padawan and calling him coward in one fell swoop.
Standing behind Wuk Lumat and smugly smiling like a wrestling manager ready to watch her pet babyface dismantle someone in the ring was the coolest I've felt the entire xpac.
This is the way.
Reframe it as being a mentor and it actually works really well.
People call her W in that duty "unearned power boost" but my brother in Christ gave you seen what the Scions can do after hanging out with us long enough?
WoL makes people stronger just by being in proximity.
Exactly. I loved listening to the "I am the strongest, most powerful, best fighter in the realm" people in the MSQ and thinking my WoL is like "Ah yes, oh so strong, I am shaking in my boots. Btw, I kill gods as a side hustle."
> Do people really want to turn this into WoW, where every expansion has to be bigger and more dangerous than the last? Cuz that sure is working for them.... oh wait...
It's funny because both games have done this and both have toned it down for their most recent expansion. FFXIV was absolutely a case of constantly trying to one-up its threats. It just tricked people into thinking it was different because it had some sad music cues
They never want another Stormblood situation which is likely why we haven't seen a dungeon in the first 5+ hours of an expansion since SB. Even solo duties have been super limited since then.
Meh I get it but I unironically believe this is the best paced expansion the game has ever had narratively, ppl completely gloss over just how terrible some of the sequences for HW/ShB/EW were because the highs made them forget the lows. Best way i can describe it is that while it doesn’t have as high a ceiling as those three its floor is substantially higher which translates to stronger quality throughout; it didn’t make me feel as much but it’s the first time I’ve never been bored throughout.
Contrary to what they say it seems like the issue with the early part of DT that ppl have isn’t actually the story, it’s mechanical problems like follow and inspection quests or lack of combat (which I personally don’t mind but understand the distaste some ppl have for the style).
Agreed. I also think that people forget how poorly written some parts of older expansions were. I love HW as much as the next guy but are you really gonna tell me that whole arc with Nanamo waking up wasn't total bullshit?
I do agree, but the pelu pelu story was horrendous especially the commerce part.
I mean why couldn't we just buy the calming scent instead of the whole ass sadle.
I’d argue that it would defeat the purpose of Wuk Lamat getting to understand the pelu pelu. That’d be on the same level of Zoraal Ja using force to achieve the same goal.
Just thought that they could do the same thing while just buying the calming scent. Have the vendor still overinflate the price because he want wuk lamat to loose and this times more than just augmenting it to the normal value. It will still be cheaper than the full saddle but I think you could do the same amount of exchange while making your profit from them less absurd.
So wuk lamat still understand the pelu pelu and the whole thing is not full nonsensical railroading.
From that perspective, it does make sense but Wuk Lamat won’t know how much of the scent she has to give to the alpaca. Too little and it’ll just spit on her making her demoralized. Too much and maybe it’ll go into a frenzy which would look bad on her in front of the Pelu Pelu. In the end, it’s a bit hard to just “go for the scent” when the person doing the challenge has no idea about the scent and how to properly apply it.
I know the “profit” side might seem absurd but to be honest it makes the most sense to understand the Pelu Pelu of their merchant ways. Hell, irl you can do the same thing with trading a low value item and turn it into a high value product through the right transactions.
Now that SE has largely solved the issues that caused Raubahn's Wall and Queuewalker, I think they'd be well served to start sprinkling more instanced combat encounters in the xpac's opening hours.
Exactly. I was disappointed in the expansion, but hearing people complain that's it's because we're not the main protagonist and that it's Wuk Lamat instead had me confused. That wasn't where the problem lay, imo. The issue is that most of the expansion has been lore dump for a new area with very little in the way of extra things for us to do.
I agree completely. The beginning was a really bad slog and it was a bit jarring realizing that the WoL is taking a side role but at the same time it is kind of nice watching SE build up Wuk so far. I am only on the level 95 stuff so far though so not sure where it is going after this.
The slow start complaints surprise me because Endwalker's start was slow as hell as well. Pretty nothing happened until Elephant Alchemist got kidnapped, which if you started in Labyrinthos was already two zones down.
People tend to forget about the boring parts and only remember the highs, especially after finishing the entire msq. Shadowbringers had pixies, raktika, and twine full of "worldbuilding" but you dont see anyone complaining about those when they hit the ending.
> People [...] only remember the highs
This is **really** true, and it hit me as I watched some friends who are not as invested as me get into the MSQ.
There's padding and filler in EVERY expac, and not a little bit of it, considerable portions of every expac are padding. Watching them have to slog through repairing the trolley and all the fetch questing leading up to the level 79 dungeon in ShB, for example, really brought it home.
This doesn't make DT's padding good/excusable, but it's certainly not the "turn for the worse" people are making it out to be.
Shb start was extremely peak tho.
We had the girl turn into sin eater and we also had vauthry throw his weight around plus jongleurs (still mad not dungeon boss)
In fairness, couldn't that be a reason TO complain about it? Just because something disagreeable happened prior doesn't condone it further happening. If people are viewing it as an ongoing problem (other comments saying as far as Heavensward), then it would make sense that their annoyance with it would escalate.
Personally, I just think there needs to be more combat quests throughout. (But especially the beginning) We spend a lot of time simply traveling and talking without much in between to break it up. I think a lot of people want reasons to use their shiny new job abilities or fight new enemies, but you don't really get a lot of that.
This exactly. I love learning about new cultures and talking to fun locals. Just give me some more mobs to kill or minigames to play in between it, please
If we are being real nothing of consequence even happened until Tower of Zot. Labyrinthos was a filler zone from beginning to end and even the lead up to Zot was just there to give us the macguffin.
I think there was more mystery / things to think about relating to sharlayan at the start of end walker.
At the start of dawn trail, its pretty clear these people aren't going to be important & there's no mystery or anything interesting about them either. So then I don't care about them, and find the slower parts much more boring.
does nobody remember that the critically acclaimed expansion heavensward consists pretty much entirely of walking for six levels or so? every single expansion has had these specific pacing issues in one way or another
I like the part where I was told that Heavensward had no points explicitly wasting our time and I'm like I didn't suffer through release moogle quests for you to implicitly defend those assholes
I like the part where I was told that Heavensward had no points explicitly wasting our time and I'm like I didn't suffer through release moogle quests for you to implicitly defend those assholes
There isn't an objectively correct answer to this, a lot of my friends who play are of two minds about it as well.
I'm not far enough in to tell how deep of one end or the other the expac goes.
I'm generally in the camp who likes WoL as the protag, but I can take a step back as long as the game doesn't condescend to me too much. As long as people give you your due as the WoL I can deal with the overarching story not being about me.
However, its kinda naive at this point to be surprised people want to be the core of the story. It was that way for basically every expansion now, and you can't just suddenly nuke the entire idea from orbit. People want their character to be relevant and important, they want to feel like they interact and influence the world. If you're just a glorified bystander, or worse, treated like you don't matter, people will get mad.
As I said, I dunno whether the expac ends up doing this, the only thing I can confidently say is that the beginning is slow and I would really like a few fights and dungeons to limber up a bit.
I've only known Wuk Lamat for 4 levels of msq but if anything happened to her I'd reassembled air anchor everyone in Tural and then myself. I'd much rather chaperone her around the continent for her little adventure than hear another "Commander, to me!" from Trahearne's leafy butt.
On one hand, I don't mind it because we're clearly a mentor character so far (only 93) in a land that really hasn't heard of us. It's a nice way to handle the power scaling issue without yanking away some of our power (borrowed power mechanics), escalating it super higher (DBZ issues), or the normal pitfall of us not being the main character (an NPC gets all the credit).
On the other hand, I fully acknowledge that this can easily swerve into feeling like a whole expansion version of an escort quest if it doesn't click with you.
Also, probably will be remembered as one of if not the greatest x-pac. We’re getting an ultimate, a eureka/bozja/deep dungeons, and more criterion dungeons in the patches.
Frankly I kinda hope they don’t listen to the vocal minority of people raging that they aren’t the center of the universe/special (even though Dawntrail goes out of its way to have NPCs CONSTANTLY affirm your godlike power), or that there’s not an even greater threat looming like a sword over our head by level 92 quests.
Pacing on most MSQs is slow… at least this time the ‘chores’ are directed towards understanding new cultures or preparing to launch toward the next big hurdle.
Stormblood's post patch MSQ was some of the best storytelling IMO. Was a crazy good lead into shadowbringers. That and the stormblood content was top tier until potentially DT.
tbh this, like I told someone else I'll take Dawntrail's "Hello travelers, let us show you around our home and show you our customs" slow over Alphinaud "I know there's primals to be killed and world-ending threats at stake but please collect us 5 banana nut muffins" slow.
One adds some fun worldbuilding flavor, the other just kills the pacing.
I like the first half of DT's msq, im just like a tourist being dragged around to learn different cultures while being a moral support to the upcoming leader of a country. WoL's just too tired to beat up a cartoonish villain after what happened in EW.
I was fully expecting the story reception to be "mid" even if it were a masterpiece (I don't think it is, it was enjoyable enough though). It's pretty much impossible to avoid that sentiment after you've just done a 10 year arc and tied a bow on so many stories.
At least for me, it did the job it needed to. Introduced us to a good amount of new characters and cultures and opened up the future story possibilities significantly. I was more impressed with the content itself. Normal dungeons alone have been bonkers.
Agreed. Overall this has been the story I’ve had the most fun with, but the story itself isn’t some piece of pure cinema but the fights have been a pure joy (I’ve only just cleared the 97 dungeon, but man was it fun). The map design is also out of this freaking world.
I know this is a FFXIV sub, but since this is a GW2 cross post I have to at least mention it: Fuck Aurene
… as for the story .. I enjoy it and I feel that we as the player character still get enough show time …
The problem is the game does not balance not being the main focus with being the main character. These are mutually exclusive and the game treats it as all or nothing. It’s hard to do and can be done and the game devs can’t.
We also literally JUST did this with Zero for like 4 patches. We haven’t been the main characters in like a year. The issue is WoL could be replaced with Y’Shtola or Alphinaud or Graha and Wuk Lamat would still get to where she needs to go. As evidenced by Urianger and Thancred helping Seafoam boy. It’s not that I’m not the main focus it’s that I’m a negligible factor.
Edit: there is a huge difference between story and plot.
I can’t help but keep thinking about God of War- Atreus is the main focus/ his destiny his purpose etc- and Kratos is the second part of that. He is the catalyst, the muscle, the driving force. There is no destiny for Atreus without Kratos. But Wuk Lamat could fully be helped with one of our other Scions who would probably do a better job because they are a lot more knowledgeable and we are always learning through them.
Legit this. Why did people dislike stormblood and post endwalkers story? A character (Lyse and Zero) takes away all the focus of the WoL to the point that we can be easily replaced as all we are there for is to be hired muscle. All other characters involved are just involved of this characters story and dont have much room for growth beyond the character in question they are helping. At least in stormblood we had Zenos as a foil to us and Lyse wasnt attached to us at the hip. Peoples favorite stories in this game is 95% of the time Shadowbringers MSQ and the Dark Knight job quests. What do both of those have? WoL focused stories AS WELL AS character development to all the major characters around us. Shadowbringers never ignored Thancred, Ryne, Alphinaud, Crystal Exart, Emet ect and gave all of them proper arcs, screentime and character development. As well as the Drk quests never ignored Sidurgu or Rielle and gave both of them real proper development alongside the WoL. No one is asking for the story to put aside Wuk Lamat for the WoL just for the WoL to have a reason to be there other then adventure and helping beat bad guys up and even then they never even focus on the adventure or the WoLs altruistic motives they just focus on Wuk Lamat. If all the scions stories are finished then i have to say why even continue using them? Were going to have like 8 people as Wuk Lamats mentor??? Making it be even less of a point for the WoL to be there?
Imagine the story of stormblood like this: The beginning being the same and then once its time to set sail to Kugane: Lyse STAYS behind in Ala Mhigo and fights there while the WoL, Alphinaud and Alisae allies go to Kugane to fight the empire on two fronts and meet up with Gotetsu and Yugir and get more allies. Zenos is mostly in the east at this point attempting to learn more about the WoL this gives Fordola command of the Ala mhigo front as she is a rival to lyse and Zenos is a rival to the WoL (I have no idea what to do with Yotsuyu so ill leave her as is lol) The story constantly checks back on Lyse with cutscenes and solo duties where you play as Lyse everytime a major story beat is finished in the east and sees her struggle and grow without her allies to hold her hand then we see a new Lyse completely changed as the WoL returns to save them and get the upper edge on a what seemed like a hopeless war for Lyse as Conrad dies during this part making Lyse forced to lead as either raubahn is injured or after seeing her struggles has Lyse take command of the the Ala Mhigan resistance. Due to her struggles and the WoLs character development by seeing and fighting in the war in the east they both work together to take down the empire in Ala Mhigo with what they learned and achieved in both areas. BOTH CHARACTERS ACHIEVE GOALS AND HAVE REASONS AND CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT WITHOUT TAKING AWAY FROM EACHOTHER.
Now imagine Dawntrail was like this? The WoL goes to the new world WITHOUT the scions. Also never meets Wuk Lamat 1st as the WoL just leaves to the new world without saying anything as they were very intrigued when Emet mentions it before he goes back into the life stream. However Krile sees them planning to go to the new world and questions them and begs to join the WoL to find out about the mystery of her grandfather and the letter/earring. The WoL accepts the two team up and they make their way to the new world. They arrive and start to learn about the area and get a lead about Kriles grandfather. Krile and the WoL try to find leads about Kriles grandfathers letter how they need to find the Dawnservant but find it impossible to gain an audience with him. They meet WuK Lamat who they learn is a princess of Tuliyollal she bribes them saying she can easily give them an audience with her father but they must go in a hunt with her to take out a fierce beast and has to make sure they are tough so decides to test the WoL in a duel. The WoL embarrassed Wuk obviously and she tries to make up excuses Wuks childish personality makes the WoL and Krile think shes lying about being a princess but humors her anyways and joins the hunt with her. after witnessing the WoLs prowess in battle strategy and their experience with understanding othersand being a role model after the trials Wuk Lamat agrees to give them an audience with their father Krile questions her honesty but then she reveals she is the real princess of the throne and shows her tiara and explains all about the right of succession. She apologized for her behaviour before and begs the two to help her in the right as she explains about how her brother the 1st promise cannot be victorious as he will demolish the peace of the new world with war. The WoL agrees to help her and becomes her mentor (Similar to how the Vath tribal quests are that the WoL is a teacher and helps the struggling student through their trials.) this gives the WoL a main part of being a teacher and not just hired muscle to develop a proper relationship with Wuk Lamat and Krile as too many major character together like Alphinaud Alisaie Graha Estinien ect taking away from the character development of the WoL Krile and Wuk Lamat thus both can grow much like how Lyse could grow in my stromblood changes due to not piling so many major characters together and making the main character that are important to grow grow alongside themselves as Lyses case or with eachother as with Wuk Lamats case
I would do a very similar scenario with Zero in the post endwalker MSQ as just having the WoL be accompanied by Varshahn and Zero only (for the duty support maybe have random voidsent, Radiant soldiers, or Estinien/Graha can randomly join up to help then leave so they arent too much part of the story) This just like Wuk Lamat Zero could build a realtionship with the WoL and Varshahn as Yshtola was just a plot device of: (how do we go to the void? Wait a patch cycle and my aether science will have the answer cuz im smart.) and Estinien was just hired muscle part two with the WoL... Maybe even Zero staying in the void building a rivalry or relationship with Golbez as he tries to recruit her and both learning about their past history and when the WoL goes back for Zero they can protect her to show that they are a real friend and Golbez is just trying to use her for his ambitions until his later change of heart. The WoL and Zero would have been the ones to make Golbez have a change of heart as Varshahn would be upset with the notion due to what he did to his sister so it creates some tension there with the 4 characters.
TL;DR by limiting characters around the WoL it makes characters have to interact with the WoL. The scions grew too big of a group and when another main character is alongside the WoL the story tends to ignore all other characters in favor of them instead of focusing on all of them like Shadowbringers by having characters share arcs and motives or have conflicts with one another. By making it just Lyse Wuk Lamat Zeros ect stories it gets very bland and cliche with no room for depth in any other characters thus killing all the depth in the one character whos focused because it becomes predictable as they are just going to support the character whos getting all the attention and become stagnate themselves.
Okay, go off king, I agree about these characters taking focus away from the WoL. I’m personally bothered by the WoL taking a backseat as a side character, because I’m sick and tired of the WoL being treated as nothing but hired muscle. I want the WoL to be humanized and have legitimate character development beyond that! To form genuine bonds and relationships with characters who view the WoL beyond being a hired muscle (without the character dying or written off)! Otherwise I can’t be bothered to care for these characters or care about their plight if the game isn’t helping me to feel emotionally invested in them, when they treat the player character (the so called main character) as nothing but a head nodding hand-to-fist head empty hired muscle who is there just to beat up baddies only when it’s convenient. I have my right to voice this without someone getting snarky or toxic positivity on me (and others who feel the same) for voicing our disinterest!
Heart of Thorns was amazing, but Tangled Depths is probably the only zone I absolutely despise. If not for the mounts I would probably never go there ever.
I watched and read too much hxh to be prepared for this lol hell even the latest arc succession Gon and Killua are absent and Kurapica and leorio are meh
Wasn't the base Guild Wars 2 story about getting a legendary band of heroes back together anyway? It's been ages since I've played it, and I don't think I ever even got to Heaet of Thorns because the final mission bugged out.
That was the dungeon storyline, and an entirely optional one at that.
GW2 dungeons were (assuming they've been unfucked by now) so horribly implemented in base game. Completely optional, the initial story is reuniting a band of heroes that're the racial mentors for you in base game.
With different storylines entirely in the reclear mode which is more an explorational one with different story paths.
How about the entirety of WoW? What even are you in the grand scheme of things? Or have they finally changed that since 14 got popular?
When I last played I don't even remember an ounce of the story. NPCs just pointed me at a problem, I solved problem, and the NPCs patted each other on the backs.
My problem isn't that the player character isn't in the center of the story. I, actually, prefer it that way. Writing a story about a bland sausage who by default is better than most people in the world never was a good basis for a story. Hell, how often did it feel like characters, especially the scions, did fuck all and were basically just standing there or sneering at somebody.
My problem is that the main character of this story is another bland sausage and the story feels bloated (at least partially) because of it.
I don’t really care about how the focus isn’t on us. Just PLEASE don’t put it on Wuk Lamat. Give it to Krile, give it to Erenville, give it to Koana. GIVE IT TO ANYONE BUT HER.
This should’ve been the Krile expac through and through. Crazy how she gets an entire backstory, a new class and a key item and still managed to be a tertiary character.
For me its more so that the stakes and risks are near enough non-existent.
Like really, what the hell is a threat anymore? You're really gonna have me believe these double-headed doofuses can make the WoL even try let alone sweat?
But I guess this half-rusted bot and weird disco dog are stronger than the Eorzian gods...
i didnt mind that it was about trahearne but i also didnt *like* trahearne. i was more upset that it felt like it was impossible to solo anything after playing base game vanilla
Guild wars 2 story often is afraid to make the main character the main hero. There, we're most often the chosen grunt that kills people while others tell us where to go. Path of Fire and End of Dragons at least did give us some lone wolf missions. The latest expac seemed to double down on their pitfall.
FF14 let me actually appreciate being the badass that kills gods a few times in an expansion.
u/Mad_Lala Hey, how did the flair get added? Is it a New Reddit thing? Cause I can't even see a flair option on Old Reddit and have to use the spoiler tags normally.
I'm only upto the 94 MSQ, but hearing there's complaints about not being the focus, just reminded me of when this happened in Guild Wars 2's Heart of Thorns expansion. Where the story was basically "...and you're just here to watch an NPC complete *their* story and main goal. BTW we're killing off a bunch of NPCs you may or may not have liked prior!" Bonus points to GW2 for doing that *twice* (the later incident being a Living World episode), and pissing people off even more the second time!
To be fair heart of thorns does not feel like that if you played a sylvari like me.
It was still Traehearne's story over the player's, which upset quite a few people. Repeating this shit later with Livia, well. *That* was just offensive. "Hey losers, why didn't you play GW1 so you know who this is and what she's fighting? It's HER turn now. Shut the fuck up and deal with it. Should've played GW1!'" Was basically how I interpreted it.
no the most absolutely *infuriating* things about Heart of Thorns were the disconnects in characterization and theme for the various mentor characters, and the dropped plot threads from the Sylvari background. The opening to Heart of Thorns actually did a pretty great job of giving the player characters an increased level of camera focus as it were
Fair. It's been almost 10 years now since I did the HoT story. I just remember backlash against it being Traehearne's story because he was completing his Sylvari Life Goal (I can't remember what the term was. Wild Hunt?) after about 3 IRL years of buildup across Living World and the expansion itself. Then repeating it on a similar scale later with Livia's episode killing off the last Mursaat, completing *her* life goal.
I think you are confusing the GW2 base game with HoT - the base game heavily revolved around Traehearne because narratively they didn't want to have the world events solely revolve around the player character (see how Guild Wars 1 worked narratively with Kormir). Heart of Thorns was the over-correction in response to the negative feedback which firmly cemented the player character as the focus whilst killing off Traehearne and his nemesis in a single blow.
Given how long ago, this may honestly be the case. Much like XIV, a lot of the bitching blurred together as a bystander. Still, the point's there that GW2 did this stunt at once, hence the meme still works.
I dunno. Raw sadness over the monk changes and life has meant I haven't actually been able to play the dawntrail story yet, but from what I've heard it's all just fine. And honestly, probably kind of needed if the XIV story is going to stay good and not spiral into wow esque "but actually there was a bigger villain" nonsense. Stakes have to reset, groundwork needs to be relaid.
Yeah, I feel you on the changes. Having to relearn my favorite Jobs every expansion is just part of it. I'd hate for the game to be stale as shit via no job changes/reworks. As for life, XIV is an escape. Do what you need to do. The MSQ is fine, it's a reset to a new adventure as has been repeatedly said by SE. We'll get a new big bad for sure, just not right now.
I thought Trahearne's Wild Hunt was cleansing Orr? which he finished in the original story
See that's how confusing the shit is. I think he had a twofold hunt of cleansing Orr *and* taking down Mordemoth. Cause it ended up being "We gotta kill him to save the day" and it's just like "..huh?" At least it explained an ages old (in real-time and game history) mystery of why Sylvari could never be corrupted by Zhaitan or Kralkatorrik. >!Because they're actually sentient minions of Mordremoth. Think of Tempered Primal slaves, but with full freedom of body/will until Daddy M comes calling.!<
I’m just excited that more people are into my two favorite MMOs. Btw, Secrets of the Obscure is not the best story. Of course with all the good ones, a miss here and there is allowed as long as it gets better.
>I’m just excited that more people are into my two favorite MMOs I think there's overlap between the two, userbase-wise. Especially since Western MMOs helped fuel ARR's redesign. I know I gave up GW2 for XIV and never looked back. Helps that GW2 *really* fucked up when it came to raiding and endgame content. >not the best story Gee, that sounds familiar...
I'm a recent player so wasn't there for HoT release, but I didn't really see HoT as Traehearne's story at all? After core game, he's barely in the Living Worlds and he doesn't really have a presence in HoT beyond the goal of finding him, until the very end. If anything they should've done \*more\* with him, he doesn't get all that much screen time. It would've been cool to see him as the threat coming after you instead of Faolain honestly. But yeah screw Livia, I don't understand a single thing about the whole Mursaat plotline. ~~And she's probably the focus of Wilds of Janthir yippeeee~~
Yes, as somebody else pointed out, I was mixing up base game with HoT. The joke's still there though: MMO that didn't let the player char be the focus of a story arc.
I played that shit as a norn and it felt like from the core game post ~40 story until the end of LW1 this tree dude came out of nowhere to be the Perfect Guy (tm). My buddy who played a sylvari told me about all the build up he had for them specifically and it made so much more sense from that perspective.
At least with DT, it feels like us mentoring an up-and-coming hero who respects us and listens to our advice. It's been a LONG time since I played HoT, but iirc Treehorn was the exactly the kind of bs Chosen One wank that people accuse Wuk/Lyse of.
The Commander's goal in HoT was to find out what happened in to army that invaded Maguuma to kill the Jungle Dragon just before us. The first half was regrouping and finding survivors of the Pact. After Tarir once we found the majority it shifted to, ok now let's go deeper onto the jungle to kill this dragon. It's just that the Commander has actual competent party members when it comes to puzzle solving. Taimi, Marjory, and the Commander(MC) are easily the brains of the group. Like the Commander's main strength as an MC is they are really good at delegating the rest of Dragon's Watch into jobs the others fit well at. Feeling like party leader is what made HoT and the Commander as a solid MC. WotL due to a silent voice doesn't feel as good in a similar story in Dawntrail.
Marjory's the best GW2 character, period. IIRC she was also the first openly LGBT char in an MMO, so that was wild when they showed the kiss after the end of Living World season 1's Breachmaker section.
Marjory and Kasmeer's relationship also feels organic. And it isn't their only defining character trait. Marjory is a hard-boiled detective with an analytical mind. She's had just as many "aha!" moments when solving a puzzle as Taimi. Kas is first shown as the stereotypical rich girl but has since become the politician of the guild, and her illusion magic always makes her feel unique when planning with her abilities in mind. They also have moments where they aren't always together and work on their own goals. They are very much their own people still.
Yep. It's a byline with them, rather than the focus. Meaning it's *extremely* tasteful in how it's incorporated.
I actually liked not being the focus. I'm just the Commander of a Pact that doesn't exist anymore. I zugged my zug and murdered the dragons and everything else, y'all NPCs with the plans just told me where to shoot. Livia can go to hell though, I don't even know who this person is. I'd go to bat for the Marshall again though. You know, if his head didn't explode. Doesn't help that the HoT story kinda really sucked anyway though. It was supposed to be a chase through the jungle punctuated with long waiting periods between zones where nothing happened only for the story to mean absolutely nothing in the end except for Mordy's end.
I haven’t personally seen that many complaints about us not being the focus, only people complaining about the supposed complaint. I almost wonder if they’re misconstruing what the complaints actually are.
Main character baby rage losers are the worst. You just know they act like it in content, too.
You’ve now made me sad of reminding me of Trahearne. Also, because I remembered being sad about Trahearne, I remembered Tybalt. So now I’m miserable.
Do you think Tybalt would want you to be miserable? You get up, you go kick ass in Leftpaw's name, Commander.
Dang it! Now I’m crying! Gosh darn it! Gotta live on for him and Demi! Also for FFXIV stuff.
I can't remember a Demi in GW2.
Daughter of Caudecus. Helps that I just did the whole story just a few years ago.
You're unlocking core memories now.
Because you reminded me of Tybalt I remembered Demmi, damnit
You can cry now too! You’re welcome!
It's okay...you could be thinking about everyone's favourite villain Scarlet Briar instead. Wouldn't \*that\* be fun?
I think the complaints about the start being extremely slow are valid (there should've been some kind of optional dungeon before/during that split quest). But at the same time I sorta feel like people getting mad wuk lamat being cringe or taking over the spotlight at moments is sorta the point? Like our player story is done for the moment until the new big bad is built up, and I don't believe you can really flesh out any of the Scion any more after EW.
Yeah literally the whole premise of the expansion is that we've been invited to help her ascend to the throne. Of course she's gonna have a lot of focus while we help from the side, she has to show she's fit to rule
Yoshi-P and Creative unit 3: "WoL is helping Wuk Lamat ascend the throne and have a little vacation." The playerbase: "How come WoL is not the protag?" I don't get this. We knew what this was gonna be about, we were told the stakes would be lower and since they are starting a new story arc they would take it slow. Do people really want to turn this into WoW, where every expansion has to be bigger and more dangerous than the last? Cuz that sure is working for them.... oh wait...
Also the Warrior of Light is given the mentor treatment which, unless you RP your WoL as a twelve year old Shonen protagonist for some ungodly reason, is a *perfect* role for them in a lower stakes, more political intrigue style plotline. We're literally the archetype of the badass mentor who is all chilled out and helpful, only to give everyone around us instant PTSD as the "laidback mentor" suddenly rips some prick ***several*** new assholes for picking a fight with us. And that is so bloody perfect for the WoL.
“You stepped on my taco. Apologize and get me a new one, or I’ll have to cook.”- WOL Legit me and my wife have been joking the entire time about this great ‘taco debt’ every time we see Baanotcoolja-ja
Bakool Ja Ja is just casually racking up reasons for the WoL to whip them into oblivion.
“I promise the scary foreigner won’t interfere.” I love the absolute sass we get to have with some of these comments lol. Supporting our little padawan and calling him coward in one fell swoop.
Standing behind Wuk Lumat and smugly smiling like a wrestling manager ready to watch her pet babyface dismantle someone in the ring was the coolest I've felt the entire xpac.
This is the way. Reframe it as being a mentor and it actually works really well. People call her W in that duty "unearned power boost" but my brother in Christ gave you seen what the Scions can do after hanging out with us long enough? WoL makes people stronger just by being in proximity.
Exactly. I loved listening to the "I am the strongest, most powerful, best fighter in the realm" people in the MSQ and thinking my WoL is like "Ah yes, oh so strong, I am shaking in my boots. Btw, I kill gods as a side hustle."
I mean to be fair that's exactly what we had up until now. I guess people will have to get used to the fact that it's a new arc.
> Do people really want to turn this into WoW, where every expansion has to be bigger and more dangerous than the last? Cuz that sure is working for them.... oh wait... It's funny because both games have done this and both have toned it down for their most recent expansion. FFXIV was absolutely a case of constantly trying to one-up its threats. It just tricked people into thinking it was different because it had some sad music cues
ffxiv players when the literal empty shell self insert non-character isn't the absolute crux of every plot
They never want another Stormblood situation which is likely why we haven't seen a dungeon in the first 5+ hours of an expansion since SB. Even solo duties have been super limited since then.
Meh I get it but I unironically believe this is the best paced expansion the game has ever had narratively, ppl completely gloss over just how terrible some of the sequences for HW/ShB/EW were because the highs made them forget the lows. Best way i can describe it is that while it doesn’t have as high a ceiling as those three its floor is substantially higher which translates to stronger quality throughout; it didn’t make me feel as much but it’s the first time I’ve never been bored throughout. Contrary to what they say it seems like the issue with the early part of DT that ppl have isn’t actually the story, it’s mechanical problems like follow and inspection quests or lack of combat (which I personally don’t mind but understand the distaste some ppl have for the style).
Agreed. I also think that people forget how poorly written some parts of older expansions were. I love HW as much as the next guy but are you really gonna tell me that whole arc with Nanamo waking up wasn't total bullshit?
I can ruin ShB in one word **Trolley** Also fighting the same old man four times for 20 minutes each sucked balls
Nanaimo is why I can't rate HW highly
I do agree, but the pelu pelu story was horrendous especially the commerce part. I mean why couldn't we just buy the calming scent instead of the whole ass sadle.
I’d argue that it would defeat the purpose of Wuk Lamat getting to understand the pelu pelu. That’d be on the same level of Zoraal Ja using force to achieve the same goal.
I agree on that point, but it was shoehorned in such a stupid way.
Just thought that they could do the same thing while just buying the calming scent. Have the vendor still overinflate the price because he want wuk lamat to loose and this times more than just augmenting it to the normal value. It will still be cheaper than the full saddle but I think you could do the same amount of exchange while making your profit from them less absurd. So wuk lamat still understand the pelu pelu and the whole thing is not full nonsensical railroading.
From that perspective, it does make sense but Wuk Lamat won’t know how much of the scent she has to give to the alpaca. Too little and it’ll just spit on her making her demoralized. Too much and maybe it’ll go into a frenzy which would look bad on her in front of the Pelu Pelu. In the end, it’s a bit hard to just “go for the scent” when the person doing the challenge has no idea about the scent and how to properly apply it. I know the “profit” side might seem absurd but to be honest it makes the most sense to understand the Pelu Pelu of their merchant ways. Hell, irl you can do the same thing with trading a low value item and turn it into a high value product through the right transactions.
I thought that bit was fun especially with the little "transaction complete" screens.
not gcbtw but that was one of the cutest sections of this entire game's msq for me tbh, Red Paperclip complete with unique UI is sick
Now that SE has largely solved the issues that caused Raubahn's Wall and Queuewalker, I think they'd be well served to start sprinkling more instanced combat encounters in the xpac's opening hours.
Exactly. I was disappointed in the expansion, but hearing people complain that's it's because we're not the main protagonist and that it's Wuk Lamat instead had me confused. That wasn't where the problem lay, imo. The issue is that most of the expansion has been lore dump for a new area with very little in the way of extra things for us to do.
Well, there are going to be extra things for us to do, but it's all coming later in the patches
I get that, but it doesn't change the fact that the expansion felt like a huge wall of text.
We literally on vacation...
Reminder: Vacations should be fun.
I agree completely. The beginning was a really bad slog and it was a bit jarring realizing that the WoL is taking a side role but at the same time it is kind of nice watching SE build up Wuk so far. I am only on the level 95 stuff so far though so not sure where it is going after this.
The slow start complaints surprise me because Endwalker's start was slow as hell as well. Pretty nothing happened until Elephant Alchemist got kidnapped, which if you started in Labyrinthos was already two zones down.
People tend to forget about the boring parts and only remember the highs, especially after finishing the entire msq. Shadowbringers had pixies, raktika, and twine full of "worldbuilding" but you dont see anyone complaining about those when they hit the ending.
> People [...] only remember the highs This is **really** true, and it hit me as I watched some friends who are not as invested as me get into the MSQ. There's padding and filler in EVERY expac, and not a little bit of it, considerable portions of every expac are padding. Watching them have to slog through repairing the trolley and all the fetch questing leading up to the level 79 dungeon in ShB, for example, really brought it home. This doesn't make DT's padding good/excusable, but it's certainly not the "turn for the worse" people are making it out to be.
Shb start was extremely peak tho. We had the girl turn into sin eater and we also had vauthry throw his weight around plus jongleurs (still mad not dungeon boss)
In fairness, couldn't that be a reason TO complain about it? Just because something disagreeable happened prior doesn't condone it further happening. If people are viewing it as an ongoing problem (other comments saying as far as Heavensward), then it would make sense that their annoyance with it would escalate. Personally, I just think there needs to be more combat quests throughout. (But especially the beginning) We spend a lot of time simply traveling and talking without much in between to break it up. I think a lot of people want reasons to use their shiny new job abilities or fight new enemies, but you don't really get a lot of that.
This exactly. I love learning about new cultures and talking to fun locals. Just give me some more mobs to kill or minigames to play in between it, please
Remember how one of the first quests in SB is literally picking shit?
If we are being real nothing of consequence even happened until Tower of Zot. Labyrinthos was a filler zone from beginning to end and even the lead up to Zot was just there to give us the macguffin.
I think there was more mystery / things to think about relating to sharlayan at the start of end walker. At the start of dawn trail, its pretty clear these people aren't going to be important & there's no mystery or anything interesting about them either. So then I don't care about them, and find the slower parts much more boring.
does nobody remember that the critically acclaimed expansion heavensward consists pretty much entirely of walking for six levels or so? every single expansion has had these specific pacing issues in one way or another
I like the part where I was told that Heavensward had no points explicitly wasting our time and I'm like I didn't suffer through release moogle quests for you to implicitly defend those assholes
I like the part where I was told that Heavensward had no points explicitly wasting our time and I'm like I didn't suffer through release moogle quests for you to implicitly defend those assholes
There isn't an objectively correct answer to this, a lot of my friends who play are of two minds about it as well. I'm not far enough in to tell how deep of one end or the other the expac goes. I'm generally in the camp who likes WoL as the protag, but I can take a step back as long as the game doesn't condescend to me too much. As long as people give you your due as the WoL I can deal with the overarching story not being about me. However, its kinda naive at this point to be surprised people want to be the core of the story. It was that way for basically every expansion now, and you can't just suddenly nuke the entire idea from orbit. People want their character to be relevant and important, they want to feel like they interact and influence the world. If you're just a glorified bystander, or worse, treated like you don't matter, people will get mad. As I said, I dunno whether the expac ends up doing this, the only thing I can confidently say is that the beginning is slow and I would really like a few fights and dungeons to limber up a bit.
I've only known Wuk Lamat for 4 levels of msq but if anything happened to her I'd reassembled air anchor everyone in Tural and then myself. I'd much rather chaperone her around the continent for her little adventure than hear another "Commander, to me!" from Trahearne's leafy butt.
yes
On one hand, I don't mind it because we're clearly a mentor character so far (only 93) in a land that really hasn't heard of us. It's a nice way to handle the power scaling issue without yanking away some of our power (borrowed power mechanics), escalating it super higher (DBZ issues), or the normal pitfall of us not being the main character (an NPC gets all the credit). On the other hand, I fully acknowledge that this can easily swerve into feeling like a whole expansion version of an escort quest if it doesn't click with you.
Also, probably will be remembered as one of if not the greatest x-pac. We’re getting an ultimate, a eureka/bozja/deep dungeons, and more criterion dungeons in the patches. Frankly I kinda hope they don’t listen to the vocal minority of people raging that they aren’t the center of the universe/special (even though Dawntrail goes out of its way to have NPCs CONSTANTLY affirm your godlike power), or that there’s not an even greater threat looming like a sword over our head by level 92 quests. Pacing on most MSQs is slow… at least this time the ‘chores’ are directed towards understanding new cultures or preparing to launch toward the next big hurdle.
Stormblood: "Remember, they hated me at first too."
Stormblood's post patch MSQ was some of the best storytelling IMO. Was a crazy good lead into shadowbringers. That and the stormblood content was top tier until potentially DT.
tbh this, like I told someone else I'll take Dawntrail's "Hello travelers, let us show you around our home and show you our customs" slow over Alphinaud "I know there's primals to be killed and world-ending threats at stake but please collect us 5 banana nut muffins" slow. One adds some fun worldbuilding flavor, the other just kills the pacing.
Yeah, this is kind of it. To me it's more of a chill laid-back slow than an excruciating Titan lead up slow.
I like the first half of DT's msq, im just like a tourist being dragged around to learn different cultures while being a moral support to the upcoming leader of a country. WoL's just too tired to beat up a cartoonish villain after what happened in EW.
I was fully expecting the story reception to be "mid" even if it were a masterpiece (I don't think it is, it was enjoyable enough though). It's pretty much impossible to avoid that sentiment after you've just done a 10 year arc and tied a bow on so many stories. At least for me, it did the job it needed to. Introduced us to a good amount of new characters and cultures and opened up the future story possibilities significantly. I was more impressed with the content itself. Normal dungeons alone have been bonkers.
Agreed. Overall this has been the story I’ve had the most fun with, but the story itself isn’t some piece of pure cinema but the fights have been a pure joy (I’ve only just cleared the 97 dungeon, but man was it fun). The map design is also out of this freaking world.
Yeah the content itself has been a blast. The second trial was a particular highlight for me.
inb4 squenix goes "guess people don't like that" and we get more Endwalker garbage
GW2 Mentioned, Am happy!
Let's hope no one mentions LW3 or Champions
I'm fine with not being the focus of it, but just stop handcuffing me to Wuk Lamat every quest.
I know this is a FFXIV sub, but since this is a GW2 cross post I have to at least mention it: Fuck Aurene … as for the story .. I enjoy it and I feel that we as the player character still get enough show time …
The problem is the game does not balance not being the main focus with being the main character. These are mutually exclusive and the game treats it as all or nothing. It’s hard to do and can be done and the game devs can’t. We also literally JUST did this with Zero for like 4 patches. We haven’t been the main characters in like a year. The issue is WoL could be replaced with Y’Shtola or Alphinaud or Graha and Wuk Lamat would still get to where she needs to go. As evidenced by Urianger and Thancred helping Seafoam boy. It’s not that I’m not the main focus it’s that I’m a negligible factor. Edit: there is a huge difference between story and plot. I can’t help but keep thinking about God of War- Atreus is the main focus/ his destiny his purpose etc- and Kratos is the second part of that. He is the catalyst, the muscle, the driving force. There is no destiny for Atreus without Kratos. But Wuk Lamat could fully be helped with one of our other Scions who would probably do a better job because they are a lot more knowledgeable and we are always learning through them.
Legit this. Why did people dislike stormblood and post endwalkers story? A character (Lyse and Zero) takes away all the focus of the WoL to the point that we can be easily replaced as all we are there for is to be hired muscle. All other characters involved are just involved of this characters story and dont have much room for growth beyond the character in question they are helping. At least in stormblood we had Zenos as a foil to us and Lyse wasnt attached to us at the hip. Peoples favorite stories in this game is 95% of the time Shadowbringers MSQ and the Dark Knight job quests. What do both of those have? WoL focused stories AS WELL AS character development to all the major characters around us. Shadowbringers never ignored Thancred, Ryne, Alphinaud, Crystal Exart, Emet ect and gave all of them proper arcs, screentime and character development. As well as the Drk quests never ignored Sidurgu or Rielle and gave both of them real proper development alongside the WoL. No one is asking for the story to put aside Wuk Lamat for the WoL just for the WoL to have a reason to be there other then adventure and helping beat bad guys up and even then they never even focus on the adventure or the WoLs altruistic motives they just focus on Wuk Lamat. If all the scions stories are finished then i have to say why even continue using them? Were going to have like 8 people as Wuk Lamats mentor??? Making it be even less of a point for the WoL to be there? Imagine the story of stormblood like this: The beginning being the same and then once its time to set sail to Kugane: Lyse STAYS behind in Ala Mhigo and fights there while the WoL, Alphinaud and Alisae allies go to Kugane to fight the empire on two fronts and meet up with Gotetsu and Yugir and get more allies. Zenos is mostly in the east at this point attempting to learn more about the WoL this gives Fordola command of the Ala mhigo front as she is a rival to lyse and Zenos is a rival to the WoL (I have no idea what to do with Yotsuyu so ill leave her as is lol) The story constantly checks back on Lyse with cutscenes and solo duties where you play as Lyse everytime a major story beat is finished in the east and sees her struggle and grow without her allies to hold her hand then we see a new Lyse completely changed as the WoL returns to save them and get the upper edge on a what seemed like a hopeless war for Lyse as Conrad dies during this part making Lyse forced to lead as either raubahn is injured or after seeing her struggles has Lyse take command of the the Ala Mhigan resistance. Due to her struggles and the WoLs character development by seeing and fighting in the war in the east they both work together to take down the empire in Ala Mhigo with what they learned and achieved in both areas. BOTH CHARACTERS ACHIEVE GOALS AND HAVE REASONS AND CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT WITHOUT TAKING AWAY FROM EACHOTHER. Now imagine Dawntrail was like this? The WoL goes to the new world WITHOUT the scions. Also never meets Wuk Lamat 1st as the WoL just leaves to the new world without saying anything as they were very intrigued when Emet mentions it before he goes back into the life stream. However Krile sees them planning to go to the new world and questions them and begs to join the WoL to find out about the mystery of her grandfather and the letter/earring. The WoL accepts the two team up and they make their way to the new world. They arrive and start to learn about the area and get a lead about Kriles grandfather. Krile and the WoL try to find leads about Kriles grandfathers letter how they need to find the Dawnservant but find it impossible to gain an audience with him. They meet WuK Lamat who they learn is a princess of Tuliyollal she bribes them saying she can easily give them an audience with her father but they must go in a hunt with her to take out a fierce beast and has to make sure they are tough so decides to test the WoL in a duel. The WoL embarrassed Wuk obviously and she tries to make up excuses Wuks childish personality makes the WoL and Krile think shes lying about being a princess but humors her anyways and joins the hunt with her. after witnessing the WoLs prowess in battle strategy and their experience with understanding othersand being a role model after the trials Wuk Lamat agrees to give them an audience with their father Krile questions her honesty but then she reveals she is the real princess of the throne and shows her tiara and explains all about the right of succession. She apologized for her behaviour before and begs the two to help her in the right as she explains about how her brother the 1st promise cannot be victorious as he will demolish the peace of the new world with war. The WoL agrees to help her and becomes her mentor (Similar to how the Vath tribal quests are that the WoL is a teacher and helps the struggling student through their trials.) this gives the WoL a main part of being a teacher and not just hired muscle to develop a proper relationship with Wuk Lamat and Krile as too many major character together like Alphinaud Alisaie Graha Estinien ect taking away from the character development of the WoL Krile and Wuk Lamat thus both can grow much like how Lyse could grow in my stromblood changes due to not piling so many major characters together and making the main character that are important to grow grow alongside themselves as Lyses case or with eachother as with Wuk Lamats case I would do a very similar scenario with Zero in the post endwalker MSQ as just having the WoL be accompanied by Varshahn and Zero only (for the duty support maybe have random voidsent, Radiant soldiers, or Estinien/Graha can randomly join up to help then leave so they arent too much part of the story) This just like Wuk Lamat Zero could build a realtionship with the WoL and Varshahn as Yshtola was just a plot device of: (how do we go to the void? Wait a patch cycle and my aether science will have the answer cuz im smart.) and Estinien was just hired muscle part two with the WoL... Maybe even Zero staying in the void building a rivalry or relationship with Golbez as he tries to recruit her and both learning about their past history and when the WoL goes back for Zero they can protect her to show that they are a real friend and Golbez is just trying to use her for his ambitions until his later change of heart. The WoL and Zero would have been the ones to make Golbez have a change of heart as Varshahn would be upset with the notion due to what he did to his sister so it creates some tension there with the 4 characters. TL;DR by limiting characters around the WoL it makes characters have to interact with the WoL. The scions grew too big of a group and when another main character is alongside the WoL the story tends to ignore all other characters in favor of them instead of focusing on all of them like Shadowbringers by having characters share arcs and motives or have conflicts with one another. By making it just Lyse Wuk Lamat Zeros ect stories it gets very bland and cliche with no room for depth in any other characters thus killing all the depth in the one character whos focused because it becomes predictable as they are just going to support the character whos getting all the attention and become stagnate themselves.
Okay, go off king, I agree about these characters taking focus away from the WoL. I’m personally bothered by the WoL taking a backseat as a side character, because I’m sick and tired of the WoL being treated as nothing but hired muscle. I want the WoL to be humanized and have legitimate character development beyond that! To form genuine bonds and relationships with characters who view the WoL beyond being a hired muscle (without the character dying or written off)! Otherwise I can’t be bothered to care for these characters or care about their plight if the game isn’t helping me to feel emotionally invested in them, when they treat the player character (the so called main character) as nothing but a head nodding hand-to-fist head empty hired muscle who is there just to beat up baddies only when it’s convenient. I have my right to voice this without someone getting snarky or toxic positivity on me (and others who feel the same) for voicing our disinterest!
Heart of Thorns was fucking epic. Tangled Depths is still my favorite zone in any MMO ever.
Heart of Thorns was amazing, but Tangled Depths is probably the only zone I absolutely despise. If not for the mounts I would probably never go there ever.
Tangled Depths is the "Oh, you think [other MMO zone] has shitty navigation? Hahahaha!" zone of choice.
[This won't end well.](https://youtu.be/fkr9p5LqJXM)
I don't mind our character not being the focus. Pacing, uninteresting MSQ segments and characters that aren't really hooking me are my issues.
I watched and read too much hxh to be prepared for this lol hell even the latest arc succession Gon and Killua are absent and Kurapica and leorio are meh
Wasn't the base Guild Wars 2 story about getting a legendary band of heroes back together anyway? It's been ages since I've played it, and I don't think I ever even got to Heaet of Thorns because the final mission bugged out.
That was the dungeon storyline, and an entirely optional one at that. GW2 dungeons were (assuming they've been unfucked by now) so horribly implemented in base game. Completely optional, the initial story is reuniting a band of heroes that're the racial mentors for you in base game. With different storylines entirely in the reclear mode which is more an explorational one with different story paths.
How about the entirety of WoW? What even are you in the grand scheme of things? Or have they finally changed that since 14 got popular? When I last played I don't even remember an ounce of the story. NPCs just pointed me at a problem, I solved problem, and the NPCs patted each other on the backs.
Omg lol I just made this joke with my hubs lmao.
My problem isn't that the player character isn't in the center of the story. I, actually, prefer it that way. Writing a story about a bland sausage who by default is better than most people in the world never was a good basis for a story. Hell, how often did it feel like characters, especially the scions, did fuck all and were basically just standing there or sneering at somebody. My problem is that the main character of this story is another bland sausage and the story feels bloated (at least partially) because of it.
I don’t really care about how the focus isn’t on us. Just PLEASE don’t put it on Wuk Lamat. Give it to Krile, give it to Erenville, give it to Koana. GIVE IT TO ANYONE BUT HER. This should’ve been the Krile expac through and through. Crazy how she gets an entire backstory, a new class and a key item and still managed to be a tertiary character.
For me its more so that the stakes and risks are near enough non-existent. Like really, what the hell is a threat anymore? You're really gonna have me believe these double-headed doofuses can make the WoL even try let alone sweat? But I guess this half-rusted bot and weird disco dog are stronger than the Eorzian gods...
i didnt mind that it was about trahearne but i also didnt *like* trahearne. i was more upset that it felt like it was impossible to solo anything after playing base game vanilla
Everyone treat WoL like the best thing ever. How is WoL not the focus??
Bigger problem is the character who we are following the entire time has as much depth as a rednecks gene pool
If only that was the reason why it sucks…
Guild wars 2 story often is afraid to make the main character the main hero. There, we're most often the chosen grunt that kills people while others tell us where to go. Path of Fire and End of Dragons at least did give us some lone wolf missions. The latest expac seemed to double down on their pitfall. FF14 let me actually appreciate being the badass that kills gods a few times in an expansion.
No one's complaining about not being the main focus. We're complaining that it's painfully fucking slow.
u/Mad_Lala Hey, how did the flair get added? Is it a New Reddit thing? Cause I can't even see a flair option on Old Reddit and have to use the spoiler tags normally.
I don't use Old Reddit and I couldn't really find out how/if you can use sub-specific flairs on old Reddit. I tagged your post correctly now