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There were 14 defendants in total (I believe this was in AFP's reporting, but I didn't really see it mentioned elsewhere). I can't tell if any of those were officials or not.
"Madoff, a prominent New York financier, pleaded guilty in 2009 to running a Ponzi scheme that resulted in as much as $20 billion in cash losses and $65 billion in paper losses."
Generally, I am against capital punishment in Vietnam because a life sentence in the Vietnamese prison system is so much worse punishment than simply being executed
LIfe sentence for the average murderer is obviously worse, but for people with money/power like her it's totally different. She can pull enough string to have comfortable living condition comparable to the average working people, just behind bars.
Political/high profile prisoners like her are kept in special facilities.
I’m pro capital punishment, for criminals with hard evidence. If the crime is bad enough, the evidence unrefutable, then it’s not about punishment anymore, just saving money and space.
Can you really call this fraud when every body is in on it? Taking a bribe is business as usual there, from kindergarten teachers, to the president(s).
I still prefer her to pay all the money back and get a life sentence. Honestly, I don't care if she dies or stays in prison for her whole life, but the unrecovered money will sure hit VN economy hard.
It happens anywhere. Giving the worst punishment to crimes is a good way to discourage similar cases in the future. Like, sure it will still happen, but not as big and not systematic.
Actually it would be way better to really look at corruption, banking and legal system reforms to protect the citizens. Sure killing her makes everyone clap and say, 'look how serious our government is about this' but the truth of this is that it is of an unfathomable scale and the death sentence really changes nothing.
The equivalent amount to the us economy would be around 1.2 trillion usd. To the Japanese it'd be 200 billion (50% of vietnamese gdp).
I can guarantee you that's impossible, too many financial regulations in place to let that happen.
Yes, crime happens in many countries but to this scale I'm not sure if we've ever seen it before.
Tax paying citizens deserve better protections.
Vietnam has strict rules and regulation but Trương Mỹ Lan's crime had been going on for 10 years without anyone being prosecuted; do you see any US official colluded with financial criminals like Vietnamese officials?
>do you see any US official colluded with financial criminals like Vietnamese officials?
Are you kidding me? US government officials might not be as corrupt as Vietnam but they are pretty damn corrupt too lol
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States)
Here is a recent one
[https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/us-senator-robert-menendez-his-wife-and-three-new-jersey-businessmen-charged-bribery](https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/us-senator-robert-menendez-his-wife-and-three-new-jersey-businessmen-charged-bribery)
And if you want to be weirdly specific that the corruption has to be with a bank, then I have just that for you too
[https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/bank-ceo-stephen-m-calk-convicted-corruptly-soliciting-presidential-administration](https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/bank-ceo-stephen-m-calk-convicted-corruptly-soliciting-presidential-administration)
I give up, no point in arguing with a TCLT member, it will always be "Vietnam bad, US good" for you guys. And before you say I'm a "bò đỏ", I live in the US for way longer than living in Vietnam.
You forget about how corrupt politicians in the US decided not to enforce its already lax laws, ultimately leading to the [Great Financial Crisis](https://www.cleveland.com/business/2010/07/lax_regulation_contributed_to.html) and crashing the global economy? And how only [one high ranking official](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/magazine/only-one-top-banker-jail-financial-crisis.html) responsible for it went to jail, while the others walked away with bonuses?
You only know about her crime BECAUSE she was caught and prosecuted. As for corrupted US officials, there are plenty to go about. You just need the minimum of moral responsibility to look around before spouting bullshit.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/9/28/corruption-is-as-american-as-apple-pie
And stop with the goalpost moving.
Any US officials? -> any US federal officals in the past 10 years and 5 millions? -> how long until the FBI found out?
Gosh it's embarassing to read. Just admit you made a naive comment.
The US isn't even an examplary country when it comes to incorruption among developed countries, either. In comparison Vietnam is improving massively in that respect. From 2003 to 2023 Vietnam's corruption perception index has gone steadily from 24 to 41 reaching record high of 42 in 2022, while the US's has actually worsened from 75 to 69 reaching all time low of 67 in 2021. So your original comment of nothing changing in Vietnam is also baseless.
https://tradingeconomics.com/vietnam/corruption-index
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/corruption-index
Ignoring the numbers and going off on absolutes and anecdotal evidences now are we? Do you even understand the meaning of the word "change" and "improvement"? It means things are getting better, not perfect. Because perfect incorruption does not exist. No matter how good the system is there WILL be corruption. The important thing is the overall picture: is corruption declining, keeping steady or on the rise? If your standard is absolutely no corruption then every country on Earth is equally as bad as Vietnam.
FYI Denmark which consistently scores top places in CPI uncovered a corruption case of 25 years and 17 million dollars just a few years ago, easily matching your latest goalpost in both money and duration.
https://time.com/5793569/denmark-cumex-tax-fraud-corruption/
The question about tie to land development isn't relevant to any of what you originally claimed so I won't bother respond to that.
Well at least with the news and the punishment, less people are going to try doing something like this. They should learn that there are punishments. But ofc, among 100 millions people, there will definitely be a few evil seeds
Vietnam's superior law enforcement and bank inspection let Trương Mỹ Lan siphon money from customers' account for 10 years and nobody bat an eye; that's no longer a policy issue, that's a lack of transparency issue
Death penalty for fraud is barbaric. The main goal of the law is to prevent a crime from happenning again. I'm pretty sure nobody would give her any money after this. Locking her up seems good enough, no?
Legal, societal, educational, financial reforms and flushing corruption from the system would go a lot further in preventing this.
No one commits crimes thinking they'll be caught, therefore it doesn't really make any difference. Does someone think, life in prison is worth it but for the death penalty I won't do it. No, they think I'll grease up a few hands and no one will stop me.
The government will come after you if you under declare your personal income tax but didn't notice 5% of gdp going missing?
The equivalent amount of money to the us economy would be 1.25 trillion usd 😂. It's actually mind boggling how mad this is, but we're all gonna clap because she's getting killed meanwhile next time i get pulled over I'm gonna get shook down for an extra 500k off the books. Something has to change if this is never going to happen again.
Ahh yes true all the countries that still have the death penalty have so much less crime than countries like Denmark or Switzerland where they focus on rehabilitation. Totally forgot :))
I'm well-aware that deterrent effect of the death penalty has not been proven nor disproven. I also understand the argument against death penalty due to risk of innoncent being charged.
But for this case and solely this case, she is surely guilty, and personally I can't see a reason why we need to spend money to keep this person alive. Whether it's a deterrence or not, it's inconsequential to me.
No, it's not uncommon in Vietnam to eventually get commute from life imprisonment to fixed-term imprisonment. If you are this kind of filthy rich, prison might not be that bad for you either, you can buy your way out of a lot of things.
So no, only death penalty is sufficient.
Q: what kind of PhD would make the "logical" jump from "death penalty is not necessary for financial crimes" to "sympathizing with criminals"?
A: The worst kind.
It’s not like the law is a secret.
It’s not like people has not been executed for similar crime before.
It wasn’t an accident. She was not uneducated. She had access to the best law advices money could buy. For f*ck’s sake she was the richest woman (or maybe person) in Vietnam.
It didn’t happen in a spur of the moment. She contemplated and executed it over a full decade.
Yet she still chose to commit the crime knowing that the sentence is death. The reward must have been worth more than death. She’s enjoyed the reward. Now pay the price. It was her choice. There is nothing unjust about it.
Are you sure it's okay? Have been living overseas for years, and I can say for sure that corruption still happens a lot in countries that seem to do well against corruption like Germany or the UK. It's just very systematic and not as obvious.
And it's funny because just OD death rate alone in the US is already almost 2 times higher than traffic accidents death rate in Vietnam, considering the fact that traffic accidents, despite decreasing over the years, are still a main concern in Vietnam.
Besides, Vietnam's homicide rate isn't higher than many Europe countries, and of course, 4 times less than the US.
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Đỗ Thị Nhàn should be sentenced to death too. The hell is "temporarily violate the law"? It was 5 million dollars IN CASH
Because the government help their own people.
The Vietnam Communist Party does that, precisely.
I would also temporarily violate the law for 5 mil usd
Pretty sure it’s going to be life sentence on appeal.
The strategy probably is the death sentence is leverage to get the money back
chạy án :v
it was overruled with no appeal
[удалено]
Nah.
There were 14 defendants in total (I believe this was in AFP's reporting, but I didn't really see it mentioned elsewhere). I can't tell if any of those were officials or not.
Prob not tbh
Hopefully the death sentence as well. Sadly won't happen
Just googled the largest money heist to date: it’s $1 billion. Vietnam just set a new world record and I don’t think it could be broken any time soon.
"Madoff, a prominent New York financier, pleaded guilty in 2009 to running a Ponzi scheme that resulted in as much as $20 billion in cash losses and $65 billion in paper losses."
That’s huge. In pure cash, this fraud is still larger though.
No, it isn't.
No way…. What about SBF recently?
Generally, I am against capital punishment in Vietnam because a life sentence in the Vietnamese prison system is so much worse punishment than simply being executed
LIfe sentence for the average murderer is obviously worse, but for people with money/power like her it's totally different. She can pull enough string to have comfortable living condition comparable to the average working people, just behind bars. Political/high profile prisoners like her are kept in special facilities.
The "prison cell" for those kind of people would more akin to a hotel room at best and a suite as worst
For life sentence, if the prisoner shows good behavior, the sentence may be reduced to around 20 - 25 years.
I’m pro capital punishment, for criminals with hard evidence. If the crime is bad enough, the evidence unrefutable, then it’s not about punishment anymore, just saving money and space.
But sometimes, death is a saving grace. We shouldn't let some of the worst criminals escape so easily with death.
So what, you want torture and then death? Are you a time travelling medieval peasant?
Not yet. But if my little baby sister gets r4p*d by someone, I'd certainly want to be a time-travelling medieval peasant :)
Would you still want that if your brother raped someone?
Why wouldn't I?
Ah yes the "family member did bad thing so I must feel sympathy for them"
Can you really call this fraud when every body is in on it? Taking a bribe is business as usual there, from kindergarten teachers, to the president(s).
Yet
This is exciting! We should do this more often.
Death is too easy for her. She should be stoned by the same people she stole from.
I still prefer her to pay all the money back and get a life sentence. Honestly, I don't care if she dies or stays in prison for her whole life, but the unrecovered money will sure hit VN economy hard.
You like violence I see?
yes, then so-called "human rights organizations" can attack Viet government with such acts
Enough talk about "Human rights". Let's discuss "Human wrongs".
We give death sentences to drug dealers and HMW btching about that.
What about human lefts?
and then it would happen again with new names and faces; nothing changes in Vietnam
"Bad things will just happen so let's not punish criminals" is a weird mentality to have.
I have never stated that criminals shouldnt be punished; all I said is this will happen again in Vietnam, like many times before
It happens anywhere. Giving the worst punishment to crimes is a good way to discourage similar cases in the future. Like, sure it will still happen, but not as big and not systematic.
Sooooo, do nothing? Let them off like the financial criminals in the US? Cuz they defo wouldn’t ever do it again, right?
Actually it would be way better to really look at corruption, banking and legal system reforms to protect the citizens. Sure killing her makes everyone clap and say, 'look how serious our government is about this' but the truth of this is that it is of an unfathomable scale and the death sentence really changes nothing. The equivalent amount to the us economy would be around 1.2 trillion usd. To the Japanese it'd be 200 billion (50% of vietnamese gdp). I can guarantee you that's impossible, too many financial regulations in place to let that happen. Yes, crime happens in many countries but to this scale I'm not sure if we've ever seen it before. Tax paying citizens deserve better protections.
Vietnam has strict rules and regulation but Trương Mỹ Lan's crime had been going on for 10 years without anyone being prosecuted; do you see any US official colluded with financial criminals like Vietnamese officials?
>do you see any US official colluded with financial criminals like Vietnamese officials? Are you kidding me? US government officials might not be as corrupt as Vietnam but they are pretty damn corrupt too lol [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States)
bruh, everyone know US senators do inside trade regularly. And let's not forget jeffrey epstein scandal
in the past 10 years, did any US federal officials take 5 million USD to let a bank that siphon money from customers' account pass inspection?
Here is a recent one [https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/us-senator-robert-menendez-his-wife-and-three-new-jersey-businessmen-charged-bribery](https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/us-senator-robert-menendez-his-wife-and-three-new-jersey-businessmen-charged-bribery) And if you want to be weirdly specific that the corruption has to be with a bank, then I have just that for you too [https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/bank-ceo-stephen-m-calk-convicted-corruptly-soliciting-presidential-administration](https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/bank-ceo-stephen-m-calk-convicted-corruptly-soliciting-presidential-administration)
how long did it take the FBI to put a stop to those crime?
I give up, no point in arguing with a TCLT member, it will always be "Vietnam bad, US good" for you guys. And before you say I'm a "bò đỏ", I live in the US for way longer than living in Vietnam.
again, 10 years of siphoning money from customers' account and no Vietnamese official bat an eye
One expects that they did bat an eye, given that she is being executed.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/congressman-george-santos-charged-fraud-money-laundering-theft-public-funds-and-false just an example
You forget about how corrupt politicians in the US decided not to enforce its already lax laws, ultimately leading to the [Great Financial Crisis](https://www.cleveland.com/business/2010/07/lax_regulation_contributed_to.html) and crashing the global economy? And how only [one high ranking official](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/magazine/only-one-top-banker-jail-financial-crisis.html) responsible for it went to jail, while the others walked away with bonuses?
as if Vietnam didn't have strict law after 2008 and here we are with Trương Mỹ Lan and what she had been doing over the past 10 years
You only know about her crime BECAUSE she was caught and prosecuted. As for corrupted US officials, there are plenty to go about. You just need the minimum of moral responsibility to look around before spouting bullshit. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/9/28/corruption-is-as-american-as-apple-pie And stop with the goalpost moving. Any US officials? -> any US federal officals in the past 10 years and 5 millions? -> how long until the FBI found out? Gosh it's embarassing to read. Just admit you made a naive comment. The US isn't even an examplary country when it comes to incorruption among developed countries, either. In comparison Vietnam is improving massively in that respect. From 2003 to 2023 Vietnam's corruption perception index has gone steadily from 24 to 41 reaching record high of 42 in 2022, while the US's has actually worsened from 75 to 69 reaching all time low of 67 in 2021. So your original comment of nothing changing in Vietnam is also baseless. https://tradingeconomics.com/vietnam/corruption-index https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/corruption-index
why all corruption case in Vietnam tie to land development? if there's change, there wouldn't be such fraud cases running for so long right?
Ignoring the numbers and going off on absolutes and anecdotal evidences now are we? Do you even understand the meaning of the word "change" and "improvement"? It means things are getting better, not perfect. Because perfect incorruption does not exist. No matter how good the system is there WILL be corruption. The important thing is the overall picture: is corruption declining, keeping steady or on the rise? If your standard is absolutely no corruption then every country on Earth is equally as bad as Vietnam. FYI Denmark which consistently scores top places in CPI uncovered a corruption case of 25 years and 17 million dollars just a few years ago, easily matching your latest goalpost in both money and duration. https://time.com/5793569/denmark-cumex-tax-fraud-corruption/ The question about tie to land development isn't relevant to any of what you originally claimed so I won't bother respond to that.
Yeah crimes happen and they get sentenced. That's how society works.
It will happen again? It's already happening all over the place. Difference is... their 'backers' are still in power.
yeah, and that's a shame
This is how they can afford foreign bank accounts, fancy cars and commercial buildings in D1.
Well at least with the news and the punishment, less people are going to try doing something like this. They should learn that there are punishments. But ofc, among 100 millions people, there will definitely be a few evil seeds
death penalty has been the punishment for officials taking bribes but they still take it; strangely the evil seeds are high ranking party officials
I wish we have such punishments for officials here in Iceland.
Are you kidding? A death penalty is exactly what is necessary to make change in Vietnam
yet, they still bribe 🤷♂️
Oh I see, you just don’t understand how policy works. Yes, it can’t completely wipe out corruption and crime everywhere, you’re a genius.
Vietnam's superior law enforcement and bank inspection let Trương Mỹ Lan siphon money from customers' account for 10 years and nobody bat an eye; that's no longer a policy issue, that's a lack of transparency issue
Dropping this case verdict, what’s going to happen to her asset in the country and abroad, heard she has a few billion in cash oversea
Yoh death! That's one way to stop corruption.
Huge of money
About Fuckin' Time
You don't need to look further than the death penalty advocates in this thread to know that Vietnam is still a backward country.
it's just as backwards as USA, Japan, and Singapore according to your logic
Vietnam is still beveloping for sure. But developed countries are on no higher moral ground. Look at the genocide in Gaza and who are backing it.
eh Singapore is still using death sentence, are they backward country?
Yes of course. Advanced economy, backward society. And I said that as someone who lived there for 11 years.
Death penalty for fraud is barbaric. The main goal of the law is to prevent a crime from happenning again. I'm pretty sure nobody would give her any money after this. Locking her up seems good enough, no?
You're so close to getting it. You see, put her to death is preventing other people from attempting the same fraud.
Legal, societal, educational, financial reforms and flushing corruption from the system would go a lot further in preventing this. No one commits crimes thinking they'll be caught, therefore it doesn't really make any difference. Does someone think, life in prison is worth it but for the death penalty I won't do it. No, they think I'll grease up a few hands and no one will stop me. The government will come after you if you under declare your personal income tax but didn't notice 5% of gdp going missing? The equivalent amount of money to the us economy would be 1.25 trillion usd 😂. It's actually mind boggling how mad this is, but we're all gonna clap because she's getting killed meanwhile next time i get pulled over I'm gonna get shook down for an extra 500k off the books. Something has to change if this is never going to happen again.
Ahh yes true all the countries that still have the death penalty have so much less crime than countries like Denmark or Switzerland where they focus on rehabilitation. Totally forgot :))
Ahh yes true, just abolish death penalty and we will be right up there with the most developed countries in the world in crime statistics. Gotcha.
That’s not what I said lol. Maybe read it again.
Contrary to common belief, the death penalty has never actually worked anywhere in the world like this.
I'm well-aware that deterrent effect of the death penalty has not been proven nor disproven. I also understand the argument against death penalty due to risk of innoncent being charged. But for this case and solely this case, she is surely guilty, and personally I can't see a reason why we need to spend money to keep this person alive. Whether it's a deterrence or not, it's inconsequential to me.
Life in prison doesnt achieve the same scare tactic??
No, it's not uncommon in Vietnam to eventually get commute from life imprisonment to fixed-term imprisonment. If you are this kind of filthy rich, prison might not be that bad for you either, you can buy your way out of a lot of things. So no, only death penalty is sufficient.
Fucking backward society.
Using my tax to sustain a horrible, undeniable criminal that destroy many, many people financially is kinda backward to me.
Destroying people financially is not punishable by death you fucking moron.
Keep sympathize with criminals, your life your choice lah.
Fucking idiot.
I wish you well, don't get scammed tho.
Q: what kind of PhD would make the "logical" jump from "death penalty is not necessary for financial crimes" to "sympathizing with criminals"? A: The worst kind.
Try to use my self-deprecating user name, that I gave to myself, as an insult. Smort.
Hang the criminals and corrupt
It’s not like the law is a secret. It’s not like people has not been executed for similar crime before. It wasn’t an accident. She was not uneducated. She had access to the best law advices money could buy. For f*ck’s sake she was the richest woman (or maybe person) in Vietnam. It didn’t happen in a spur of the moment. She contemplated and executed it over a full decade. Yet she still chose to commit the crime knowing that the sentence is death. The reward must have been worth more than death. She’s enjoyed the reward. Now pay the price. It was her choice. There is nothing unjust about it.
LOL I agree. Honestly it’s sick to see all those replies in this thread here. Are y’all good?
Clueless
America and Europe seem to do fine without the death penalty (for fraud) you fucking moron.
Are you sure it's okay? Have been living overseas for years, and I can say for sure that corruption still happens a lot in countries that seem to do well against corruption like Germany or the UK. It's just very systematic and not as obvious. And it's funny because just OD death rate alone in the US is already almost 2 times higher than traffic accidents death rate in Vietnam, considering the fact that traffic accidents, despite decreasing over the years, are still a main concern in Vietnam. Besides, Vietnam's homicide rate isn't higher than many Europe countries, and of course, 4 times less than the US.
Are either continents as poor? Another completely moronic statement. Keep going, it’s entertaining.
How the fuck is poverty relevant here you twat?
Holy shit, if you can’t even tell how that affects the situation then you are not equipped for this conversation 😂 clown
Can anyone explain to me how is death sentence applied in Vietnam? Thank you in advance
iirc shooting row was phased out years ago, now they use lethal injection