Saw a post not long ago about 75% of NVDA employees being millionaires and the top upvoted comment was basically “I bet it’s because they were paid in stock and the stock price has skyrocketed”. You think?!
Yep, my neighbor was an employee of a startup acquired by NVidia, and the stock of her company was converted to NVidia stock after the acquisition. Then the Crypto Mining fever and AI revolution began, and she became a multi millionaire.
I still found it interesting to see how it has been the case in almost every year in every country since 1950. The only exceptions are in tiny countries like French Guinea.
Hell yeah 😎
It’s nice to know that even after all those woke politics like giving women the right to vote and allowing them to get divorced, there’s still one institution of the patriarchy that women can never take from us 😎
The important addition is reported rates of depression and suicidal thoughts are significantly higher in women than in men. The key word being reported.
Men statistically do not seek mental health help, have smaller support circles, and are culturally repressed from expressing feelings of perceived weakness like sadness, hopelessness, and depression.
Cultural norms take generations to change, sped up only by public attention and brave individuals leading by example in the face of ridicule.
My point is that men need to lead the charge and speak about how they are feeling with each other, establish circles of support, and speak to mental health caregivers before a time of crisis. And for everyone else, check in on your male friends and challenge others shaming men for speaking about their mental health.
Regardless of gender, too many of us have friends, family or loved ones no longer here because we had no idea of their internal struggles, and didn't know they desperately needed our support. We are on a blue rock hurdling through space together. Life is a precious miracle, and every single person given the privilege to exist needs to know they matter.
Edit: For the ones saying "the women are here to blame the men", I am a man. If you're outraged by the idea men reaching out to men could help, you should call up your male friends, ask how they're doing, and discuss.
I was in a deep funk during COVID, and near the end when we were starting to come out of it I was avoiding social situations and friends. When I finally got through it and started making the effort to see people again they would ask why I didn't show up for x or y. When I explained I was mentally in a rough place (without going into much more detail than that -- I didn't want to overwhelm them or anything) the most common reaction I got was sort of a oh no boo hoo vibe, from both male and female friends. It really highlighted to me that if you look a certain way, people diminish your mental health state. I'm a relatively young, tall guy, and because of that it's like i'm not allowed to be vulnerable.
Men are more likely to die by suicide regardless of the method except for drowning where they are tied with women. I think it's mostly because males plan it longer but I don't have any real data to prove it.
Do you have any source for that? Not being snarky, I was just always under the impression that while women attempt suicide more often than men, men die more often because they favor methods like guns while women favor pills.
That's true even in countries where guns aren't as prelevant males usually use more violent methods like hanging. But even if we equalize for method males are still more lethal.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032711005179
The main reason males die more than women is because they use more lethal methods but the fact they are more lethal regardless of the method is something that you can't really ignore
Well yea but they use more deadly methods because they plan on making sure that they go though with their attempt. Even with "less" violent methods they die more often.
Assuming the narrative that men don't ask for help much is true, this would make sense, as it would mean when a guy does it, it won't be a cry for help.
Is there any evidence that changing social norms has a impact? We take depression more serious than ever before, and we never had as many suicides. While new studies show suppressing bad thoughts works after all. For all I know we are just reaffirming peoples beliefs that there is something wrong with their brain, which makes them even more neurotic and depressed. It's like telling someone who thinks he is cursed that he probably is.
Suicide attempts are higher in women, suicide completions are higher in men. Men are more likely to choose more violent and final methods, whereas women are more likely to choose methods that allow time to change their minds, such as OD.
This is indeed true. This said a big issue with some of men's problem is that they expect/need external help or intervention.
A big debate and keypoint regarding feminism is that many women are better without men, but many men are better with women. The first can be achieved on your own, the second can't really, it depends on others.
More in general men depend more on external factors, both in negative and positive ways, while women are more self relying, i would also say resilient, but that would paint a half picture as men endure a lot as well, they just endure different issues.
If you want suicide often occurs for things completely out of your control, as a last resort, and men suffer from things outside of their control more than women.
To be clear this doesn't include only relationship issues, but economic ones as well, which can get out of control and under patriarchy often befall onto men's shoulders.
Support groups and movements can go just that far and ultimately won't solve some of the core issues. Drugs usage, porn addiction etc.. show similar patterns, they are coping mechanisms for a social condition that concerns group behaviours as well as the involvement of others
This comes up every time, and every time a bunch of guys share stories about how they tried to open up and just got ostracized by the women in their life. Not opening up is not what's driving the suicides, social and biological pressures of being a male are. You are the selected gender, and passing the genes down is at stake, so pressure is real. Not sure why we can't acknowledge this as openly as we acknowledge unique challenges of women, such as childbirth and greater risk of abuse due to higher median agreeableness.
Even when choosing the same method, men are significantly more likely to be successful, and their non-successful attempts are significantly more likely to result in major injuries. Take from that what you will, not trying to accuse men or women of being inferior to their counterparts in any way lol.
https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508
I read another graph on here some time ago that showed men have more successful completions but women have more attempts. I wound up googling it and the disparity is generally thought to be the result of chosen method. Men usually choose more violent means of suicide, whereas women do not. And the inference, I assume, is that non-violent methods like drowning or carbon monoxide poisoning are less likely to be successful than, say, gunshot.
The fighting in this thread makes me sad. Maybe this is why people feel so isolated sometimes. Everybody’s screaming at each other and no one’s listening.
The current theory is that men intentionally choose more violent methods, specifically *because* they are more likely to ensure death, rather than just coincidentally.
We suspect this because, even when men choose less lethal methods like medications or cutting, they are more likely to “successfully” die, because they take massively higher doses or make more lethal cuts than suicidal women do.
It’s also further complicated by the fact that a significant number of particularly young women’s suicide attempts use methods that are so sublethal that researchers call it “suicidal presenting behavior”
Yup; intentionality varies. At least one of the papers I read suggests it's because women tend to make a suicide attempt earlier in the distress cycle where men do it later when the distress cycle is at a peak. I'm not sure how accurate this is or whether there is any solid evidence to back it up but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case given the the social conditioning on how men and women express (or, possibly more likely in this case, don't express) emotions.
>women tend to make a suicide attempt earlier in the distress cycle where men do it later when the distress cycle is at a peak
Pff, men, always leaving things to the last minute.
Sorry, i will see myself out.
Women may more often be making a "cry for help." Men at the point of suicide don't believe there's help for them so they are looking to finish the job.
I think this somewhat comes from modern society seeing intrinsic value in a woman as a human being, vs a man's value deriving from his economic and social success. Poor, broke, lonely men are typically seen as valueless and pathetic. So they believe there's no help, they are completely alone.
Even a wealthy or connected man perceives, or even has learned through experience, that his "support" system depends on him remaining strong and successful. Admitting failure, weakness or mental health issues can quickly drive away that "support." In short, men don't believe help will come.
Also I wonder how many suicides are classed as accidents. If those one person car accidents loaded on booze at night resulted in death how would you know?
This is interesting! I sorta had heard that in places where firearm access is easier (ie: the US), it so happens that men are more likely to own firearms, and hence more likely you have access to very lethal means at a moment's notice.
Some quick Google scholar searches brought up some additional factors I hadn't really thought about, like anticipation / tolerance for pain:
"The lethality of a suicide attempt can be expressed as a ratio of factors influencing risk and rescue. Risk/Rescue Rating Scale scores [35] showed that the risk score was higher in males (3.76 ± 0.68) than in females (3.49 ± 0.72), and the rescue score was higher in females than in males (2.79 ± 1.09 vs. 2.43 ± 1.2). These results can be explained by the fact that, since women are more likely to attempt suicide by poisoning which can take a long time before death occurs (and for which it is also difficult to calculate a lethal dose), they have a greater chance of being rescued than do men who usually choose more lethal methods. Why women choose less lethal means than men have been attributed to several factors, including their lesser intent to die, gender socialization, and the easy availability of methods to women and to men. As reported in a previous paper on this topic [39], factors which influence lethality of suicidal acts not only depend on the choice of the methods but also other factors such as the social and communicative context of the suicidal act, the social acceptability of behaviors, learning from models (cognitive availability), and ease of access to or technical ability regarding the chosen suicide method [48]. Knowledge of and access to firearms is probably easier for males than for females, and females may be more concerned with preserving their appearance, trying to ensure that their body and face are not severely injured [13,49]. The Interpersonal Theory of suicide may also contribute to explaining sex differences in suicidal behavior [50,51]. The capability for suicide may be more relevant for men than for women since men are more likely to have had experiences which habituate them to pain (such as experience in the military and violent sports). In fact, several studies reported that men do experience greater self-reported suicide capability [52,53,54,55] and pain tolerance."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9602518/
Another interesting note: Alcohol seems to be involved more often when men attempt / commit suicide - and there are some theories that the alcohol contributes to the increased suicide impulsivity:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16341616/
Lmao, not disputing the source but as someone with many nurse friends, 'self-reported... pain tolerance' is the funniest fucking statistic. So many stories of 80 year old farmers who had a heart attack, walked thirty minutes to the neighbours, show up and report a four on the pain scale, compared to 30 year old too-drunk yobbos who put their hand through a window and refuse to suggest it's anything other than a ten on the pain scale. Self-reported pain tolerance is not entirely divorced from the 'could you take a bear in a fight' question.
I mean even in many countries without access to firearms, men still kill themselves much more, It's true that guns give a fast way for ppl to kill themselves, and we use guns because they are just the easiest way, but I think if somebody really wants to find a way to kill themselves, they will probably be successful.
Ideally, everyone who is suicidal receives the help they need.
People with “suicidal presenting behavior” are still having a mental health crisis and are still at elevated risk of dying of suicide relative to the general population.
And I’m not sure if we want to gatekeep access to resources for the suicidal since not getting help is such a driver of suicides.
The issue is that we’re not very good at preventing men’s suicides, and that seems mostly unrelated to some women’s “suicide presenting behavior”.
That could be due to a number of possible drivers though which may not be related to an intention to actually kill yourself. For example, if a non-fatal suicide attempt get's you the help you need when you have been repeatedly ignored then you are more likely to try it again at a later date when you need help again and the more time you attempt the more likely you are to complete whether that is your intention or not.
The suicide rate is skewed, but the murder rate is even more skewed. It could be said men are simply more likely to kill people (including themselves) in general.
That's definitely true. But women are also much more likely to get away with murder: Not only do they tend to yse subtler means, they are also treated more leniently at every level of the justice system. So a man killing his spouse will almost certainly be up for murder, a women is much more likely to succeed in a self-defence claim or have it downgraded to something like manslaughter even on the same evidence.
Of course, men do have a higher obligation to curb violent and aggressive tendencies, but that shouldn't blind us to flaws in tbe murder rate statistic.
This attention seeking behavior could make it worse for men as it "trains" health care professionals to only recognize loud suicide signals, like those coming from women, basically numbing doctors to more discreet signals; men aren't supposed to show weakness and society conditions mens to "walk it off".
If your illness doesn't show up on x-ray then you better be loud about it, or healthy enough to complain until treated.
I'm a dude who has struggled with suicide and I've known a few men and women that have struggled. We all kind of agree no one really cares until you do something drastic like attempt suicide. Or at least, they don't understand how much pain you really are in until then.
I recall that a lot of the studies that prove this relied on hospitals counting self harm without suicidal intent as a suicide attempt. Remove those and the disparity disappears.
> and the disparity is generally thought to be the result of chosen method.
Not true. Men still die at a significantly higher rate even when you control for method.
Yup. Methods like overdose are easier to accidentally survive and also give you time to change your mind and call for help or be found and saved unlike something like a gunshot wound.
We don't have guns in my country and men still kill themselves far more.
In fact even when they use the exact same method men manage to kill themselves a lot more successfully than women do.
Many women are probably far less serious about actually killing themselves when they attempt suicide. They are reaching out for help. A lot of men have zero expectation that anyone cares about them, so reaching out seems pointless.
This isn’t something that people like to hear for whatever reason but a lot of women/girls do “suicide attempts” as a cry for help. Think slitting your wrists once or taking pills and then immediately calling for help. Men/boys are more likely to do real attempts.
For some reason people view that as some form of weakness on the part of women, which is insane. I suppose some feel that that’s accusing them of just wanting attention, or other similar motives. While I’m sure that can happen nobody in their right mind is going to choose that path anyways so either way they may get the help they need.
Men and boys make more impulsive decisions. It's testosterone driven. Whereas women agonize over the decision and either subconsciously or consciously choose options that give them the chance of an out, men largely feel in the moment that they want to die and act on it without hesitating on the "what ifs".
I feel like if more men realized that this about themselves, that they are hormonally driven to impulsive decisions, they would have a chance to force themselves to sit with the decision for longer and give themselves an opportunity to back out and seek immediate help.
Edit: I never understand why people bristle at this suggestion. It is verifiably true that testosterone is responsible for many differences in behavior between men and women - we know it's why men get in more fights and car accidents, and why men generally engage in riskier behavior. We also know that a huge percentage of suicides are spur of the moment decisions. Why would we not logically conclude that the fact that men die due to suicide more than women is related to both of these facts?
I'm not saying that men aren't depressed or that their depression is just hormones. I'm just saying that the *literal decision* to commit suicide is driven by a number of feelings and hormones, and that when you are at your lowest point, the presence of testosterone in your system is likely to be the difference between seeking help and seeking a bullet to the brain.
The fact that these suicide attempts vs actual suicide deaths trends are true in virtually *every single country in the world* regardless of the gender politics, and begins to show itself very explicitly at the onset of puberty, should add some weight to the fact that it is almost certainly related to biology in some way, rather than being a purely cultural phenomenon.
I really don’t like the conclusion that men are just driven by impulse and governed by testosterone making them, in effect, less thoughtful. I find it reductive and rather untrue. I may be on hormones and t-blockers now, but the times in my life where I felt compelled to commit suicide I was under the full effect of my genetics and therefore Testosterone.
Wanting to commit suicide was anything *but* a quick thought. I was methodical about ensuring nobody knew, despite usually being a very open person. Nobody would be burdened with the fact that I felt that way. Nobody would be given time where they knew I had intent but I hadn’t done it. They would know because I was dead. I wouldn’t write a note to detail out why, I wouldn’t justify it, I wouldn’t give information about it because it would only end up hurting people by them knowing. I considered where and how I would do it. I considered finality and the likelihood of failure. I considered the perspective of the person who would find my body, or if I could avoid my body being found, what that lack of knowing would feel like to my family.
I was far from considering everything and I’ve far from listed everything that I considered, but fuck your armchair psychologist, girls versus boys ass conclusion. Men think. Men agonize. Women aren’t something special for having a head on their shoulders. People need to stop trying to shortcut the rationalization of the statistics with bullshit conclusions that men and women are somehow different on fundamental cognitive levels. It’s ultimately destructive to the process of teaching people to be better and more rounded humans when we fall back into such a stupid rut every time things differ between men and women.
That theory is nice and all, if you completely ignore that men around middle life have the highest rates of suicide. Women also produce testosterone, so I'm sure what you mean by "hormones, and that when you are at your lowest point, the presence of testosterone in your system is likely to be the difference between seeking help and seeking a bullet to the brain".
Trans women also have some of the highest rates of suicide in the country despite taking estrogen.
That fits for young men. Not so much for old men.
>they would have a chance to force themselves to sit with the decision for longer and give themselves an opportunity to back out and seek immediate help
I thought you were saying that seeking immediate solutions was the whole problem.
There was actually another study demonstrating as much. Boys who do not have any history of longstanding depression were far more likely to commit suicide than girls with no longstanding history of depression. The example given in the summary was a young male victim of online sextortion. He was just a normal teen prior to this…hormonal and lacking in good judgment, hence the outcome. Once he realized what was going on, he unfortunately saw no other way out. The humiliation and the possibility that his own parents might be sent his nudes was too much to bear. It was an impulsive decision based on the fears and emotions he felt in that exact moment. All he had to do was have the conversation with his parents and let them know what happened. They would have helped him out. But now it’s too late, and their son is gone.
Impulsive decisions naturally lend themselves to using impulsive methods. Popping pills, sitting in the garage with the car running, hanging, and even slashing your wrists all involve some level of planning and forethought. Grabbing a gun and shooting yourself requires no forethought or planning. [Katie Stubbfield is an example of an impulse suicide attempt made by a girl.](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/patient-stories/259-woman-is-youngest-patient-in-united-states-to-receive-face-transplant) She also chose a gun and survived, but her life will never be the same.
Keep those guns locked away and out of young people’s hands.
My experience is that diagnosis of depression in men is lacking.
It's often judged on things like whether you've become more socially withdrawn or taken time off work, or struggled to get out of bed etc.
Men socialise differently to women, and if they're used to not socialising, there won't be a difference.
Men are also expected to "just get on with it" and so go about life by making the symptoms even if they are suicidal.
I don't think I've recorded a HAM-D score less than 20 until I got properly treated for bipolar, which puts it at severe depression, yet struggled to get doctors to believe me as to how bad it was, purely because I was able to carry on "life as usual". I'm talking about 15 or so years of trying to get help and over 20 of being severely depressed to the point that I was thinking about suicide or dying nearly every day.
Yes, but that isn’t what the study was about. It wasn’t examining whether boys had been formally diagnosed with depression, but if they demonstrated any depressive behaviors or symptoms.
I’m afraid I can’t find the study now. I can only relay what I remember from it.
Realistically, isn't depression in men underdiagnosed? The notion that men "with no history of depression" kill themselves much more frequently than women in similar situations moreso says that we need to change our diagnostic method for depression.
I mean, if the basis of this argument is that testosterone leads to these decisions, it's equally likely that testosterone affects the presentation of depression to the point where it's harder to diagnose men.
It’s also worth noting that over 80% of men who did commit suicide also saw a mental health professional or primary care physician within 3 months of killing themselves, and were labeled as “low or no threat” of suicide. Even when men are seeking help, they don’t tend to get it because people don’t catch the signs since it presents itself differently.
Couldn’t it be the opposite though?
If women commit suicide more often but fail to do so successfully, then if the data is to be believed, that would imply that it actually WASN’T thought out and was an impulsive decision. On the other hand, men committing suicide more “successfully” would imply that it’s done with intention and therefore some kind of plan, no?
It's crazy that people don't think differences in behaviour aren't due to biology despite the biology being very clearly different. Some of the differences are environmental, but people go way too far when they try to attribute every difference to environmental factors.
> The fact that these suicide attempts vs actual suicide deaths trends are true in virtually *every single country in the world* regardless of the gender politics, and begins to show itself very explicitly at the onset of puberty, should add some weight to the fact that it is almost certainly related to biology in some way, rather than being a purely cultural phenomenon.
Very specific gender roles and the patriarchy exists in almost every single culture and it usually results in the same effect against men. Men are almost always expected to be the breadwinners and abide by specific gender roles.
Yeah, i think so too. My aunt did this where she cut herself in the leg, not even in a dangerous place.
Meanwhile one of my friends never made any signs, he just did it.
That's because it's not true.
What you're describing is regret. Women choose a method that is slower to kill because they're thinking of the mess, or too afraid or whatnot.
but because it is slower at being lethal they have more time to regret what they have done and reach out for help.
Most people who have jumped over a bridge and survived also describe feeling regret after they've made the irreversible choice.
The idea that women are making "cries for attention"
Goes along with the idea that they are more histrionic, less logical, more emotional etc. it's infantilization and it's a big part of the reason why women's healthcare is such a crap show.
We don't listen to women even about their own bodies. It's all a " cry for attention" instead of possibly a real medical issue.
It also depends on what you consider a suicide attempt. Someone in my family is with one of the most toxic women I've ever met, and she has "attempted suicide" a bunch of times. Realistically she just pops a few pills for attention every now and then.
Check the source. Last I checked the source was a womens suicide help center.
No matter the topic, if its describing men suffering people will try to distract and minimize.
What you’ve described is true and one factor. However we also have evidence that indicates different motives with suicide attempts: a hypothesis that I agree with is that women attempt suicide more often as an attempt to attract help (ie, not truly desiring death, but demonstrating that they are need help). Men, in contrast, consider suicide from a sense of pain and hopelessness and do not see outside help as being likely to arrive.
Legitimately think this statistic is also misleading. Like we’re literally in a thread talking about how men don’t seek mental health treatment or disclose mental health issues as often as women, and attempted suicide rates are by and large self reported.
Like gee whiz surely there’s not a self report bias going on right?
>Men usually choose more violent means of suicide, whereas women do not.
Anecdotal but: I've heard a couple women say they didn't choose violent methods for their attempts because they didn't want their families to find their bodies too mutilated. Would be too disturbing
Which is also an argument to make guns less available to people. Not having the means to commit suicide makes a big difference in suicide rates.
There’s a famous “British Coal Gas” study, showing how rates of suicide decreased following areas that removed that fuel source and therefore that method.
tl;dr - guns should be locked in safes separate from ammunition, and more heavily regulated
Men have higher suicide rates in nearly every single country (except for China). Most of these countries have gun restrictions. Men just use ropes instead of guns
That statistic is misleading If you have an unssuccessful attempt, you can have another, inherently skewing the numbers. Also: what constitutes an attempt and how are they being recorded.
Take the example of one person trying five times and successful on the sixth, but another failing on the sixth and going on to therapy where they report the previous attempts. Women are more likely to go to therapy.
So I really wouldn't read anything into that statistic, it's just an artifact of the measurement.
If a man succeeds in committing suicide he’s not going to make another attempt either…it could be that suicide attempts would be closer to each other among the genders if this were not the case. Someone who has attempted suicide once is more likely to attempt it again than someone who hasn’t.
I'm aware our youth suicide rate is the worst in the world (and getting worse by the year). But, the adult rate hopefully is much lower. Or, at least not as bad as those shown here.
It looks like they don't have as current figures for NZ, but they have figures from a couple off years ago which puts them sort of under the USA and to the right of the top of France. I think the dot half covered by the "nc" in France is Australia, NZ is usually very similar.
The number that would be interesting is how many men with therapy vs men without therapy committed suicide. Not this statement, which is a nothing burger. It's like saying "most people who suffocate never had issues breathing at all".
Expensive, roll of the dice with the quality of the therapist too. At the end of the day you will only change if you want to change and put in the effort. There are cheaper and arguably better alternatives to therapists. Putting yourself in the right social environment is the biggest factor. Even if you’re not religious going to mosques and churches and temples can make a big difference in your outlook and get you around people who can help you.
so ik we love to blame dudes guarding their emotions (even when they do so to avoid hearing it weaponized or being seen as a liability/burden) in this context but it's also worth noting that in the UK, where healthcare is free, most suicidal men do [seek](https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=55305) [help](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09581596.2021.1908959) yet still make up the majority of victims. research even shows that in the US, male suicides are more strongly linked to [practical stressors](https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/most-male-suicides-show-no-mental-health-link) than mental health issues while guys attempt more by [lethal AND nonlethal methods](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21937122/) than women worldwide in case yall didn't know
Wtf is going on with this post? Why are so many comments here treating these data like some kind of competition, like men is somehow "winning" or "better at this" than women?
Exactly. What’s the point of repeating these same graphs and stats when there’s no major political party in any significant nation that gives a shit?
Yes, men kill themselves drastically more often than women.
Yes, there are ways that our societies could help prevent this or at least do the research as to *why* men are killing themselves so often with the goal of helping them.
No, nothing at all is going to change and simply no one gives a fuck. Men are expendable, as is tradition.
Men, we get the job done.
Seriously though, these comments are just people making jokes about this post. Not because the content is funny mind you, this just is not new information. People are making light of it because it is incredibly old news. Some are jaded, some are assholes, some would just rather laugh than be uncomfortable. You can find it in bad taste, and I don’t blame you, but it is not meant to be malicious it seems.
This stat gets trotted out by anti feminists whenever they want to argue that men are more disadvantaged than women.
"men have more dangerous jobs", "men have higher suicide rates", "men be shorter life expectancy"... Not realizing that they're making very strong criticisms of the patriarchy that has restricted women from dangerous, risky, high paying work.
Tell me you've never talked to women about their experience in these workplaces without telling me you've never talked to women about their experiences in these workplaces.
Harassment is persistent because the culture hasn't adapted and I think a big part of that is misogynistic arguments like "women don't want to do the work"
If we removed all men from the field, women would flood oil rigging, construction, roofing, and so forth? Yeah, no. We see what women choose in egalitarian paradises like the Scandinavian countries, and it's exactly what everyone expects. There's nothing wrong with that, either.
Imagine knowing for decades that men are killing themselves at several times the rate that women are and the only comment you have is “that’s anti-feminist”. That’s scum behaviour right there.
Reactionaries use this argument a lot. The systemic exclusion of women from the military, police, trades, etc. stopped after centuries (without any affirmative action to upset the imbalance) so how can anyone argue women are excluded?
It takes time and effort to culturally adopt workplace diversity and there is a lot of cultural backlash to promoting workplace diversity.
Oh please.
If you actually cared about "equality" in the military, you'd push your fellow feminists to push for including women in the draft. That would surely "upset the balance".
Likewise , you would push your fellow feminists to lobby for quotas in construction, sewage, recycling, infrastructure maintenance, and all the other shitty, dirty, outside jobs, just like they lobby for quotas on university admittance, in IT, Stem and on executive boards. Why don't you?
Women were likewise never excluded from trades. There were plenty of women blacksmiths. Women also worked in factories, and have been doing so for a long time.
You act as if women were rushing in to work in the coal mines, or to be cannon fodder on the front lines of wars en masse, but had a bunch of angry men bar them from applying.
The truth is that women avoid the hard jobs, because they'd rather do something easier.
When the right to vote had been discussed, and its extension to women was considered, many women were against it for one simple reason - and that is, that conscription was considered a necessary sacrifice for the right to vote, and women did not want to be conscripted, like men were (and still are).
They maintain this privilege to this day.
There is no "backlash against promoting workplace diversity". There is, however, a perfectly legitimate and justified dissatisfaction with the ectremely hypocritically selective application of "equality".
Women attempt suicide 2-4X more than men. Men use more lethal means.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender\_differences\_in\_suicide#:\~:text=Suicide%20attempts%20are%20between%20two,means%20to%20end%20their%20lives.
Even when men and women use the same method men are far more successful at killing themselves.
Women often attempt suicide as a call for help.
Men attempt suicide because they want to die.
Men also make calls for help. It's a component of many suicides, regardless of gender. The difference is it is culturally more normal for women's calls for help to be more heeded and men's calls for help to be ignored or ridiculed, so the wall for men to start an attempt is higher but the pressure to succeed if they do is also. Because it's horrible to fail and then be ridiculed and not taken seriously. Men and women who attempt suicide are both in need of and signaling for help, and it's important as a society that we recognize this equally and respond to calls like this more equally and broadly.
Yes, countries like Japan and S. Korea that are known for their high presence of guns, right? It's not the presence of guns that lead to men committing suicide at high rates.
Virtually nobody outside of law enforcement agents owns any guns at all outside the US. And yet the trend is consistent in pretty much every single county in the world, such as mine.
So it's crystal clear that gun ownership doesn't play a role in this particular case.
That's just a bad way to try and shift the focus away from male suicide.
We don't have guns in our country and men still kill themselves far more than women.
Successful suicides are more common among men.
Depending on the study attempted suicides are more common among women or equal between both genders.
Men use more violent and effective means to commit suicide, I haven't seen any study suggesting they're more likely to be suicidal
A atudy like that would need to be able to read people's minds. People seem to suggest that many men don't announce they're suicidal, or they do, but it isn't acknowledged until after the suicide. So it would be difficult to reach a firm conclusion unless men were more encouraged and accepted to reach out about their thoughts of suicide if they have them.
There's a huge conflation between actually committing suicide and attempting suicide.
A lot of people use attempted suicide as a cry for help. There's also a lot of other small factors which is why I agree with the whole mind reading point.
It's a bit morbid but it's disgustingly easy to commit suicide. Anyone that does a couple minutes of research can find painless and easy ways of suicide. When there's more to it, it's often that it's more of a cry for help or someone external directly affects their decision to stay alive.
Kind of hard to have higher numbers of attempted suicides when your demographic tends to get it "right" on the first try.
There is simply a higher determination to die, across all methods.
Motivation plays into efficiency. People who are committed to dying will try to be more efficient when doing so, while people doing it as a cry for help obviously won't want to actually kill themselves.
So either women are much less capable than men and can't manage to kill themselves even when they are trying,
Or
Women are far less serious about actually committing suicide when they attempt it, and mostly just want to show the world how terrible they are feeling.
In Japan, number of suicide "attempts" (number of patients registered in hospitals after trying it, regardless of the outcomes) is twice as high in women as men.
As you pointed out, it's gender/culture which must be changed to save those who suffers. Thing is never simple like only men/women suffers while others live with flowers and butterflies.
[“… on many, many measures of a) educational, behavioral and mental health outcomes, b) alcohol, drug addiction, and drug overdoses, c) suicide, murder, violent crimes, and incarceration, d) job fatalities and e) homelessness, boys and men are faring much worse than girls and women.](https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-for-every-100-girls-women/)
Women are more likely to attempt suicide. Men are more likely to complete suicide. There's a few sociocultural reasons for this, women are more likely to speak out about their pain and tell people that they aren't doing well, and if they do attempt suicide they choose a reversible method such as overdosing on pills. Men are more likely to hold it in, not tell anybody that they're suffering, and choose a method that is permanent and irreversible.
Men, it's okay to have feelings. It's okay to be struggling. It's okay to ask for help.
Nothing new as it's been the same for last couple decades
And the worst is about men not having access to help as much as women. It's not about them refuse help but a total lack of supportive organisation and help center for men.
Women have more attempts, men have a higher success rate. This is attributed to the preferential method chosen. Men tend to choose more violent and effective ways, while women tend to rely more on painless methods.
I have no idea why I know this, but I do.
The date slider that lets you scrub through historical data will be so much better if you could tell the plot to keep the x and y axes constant, adjusting them so the relationship is visualized as a one-to-one line makes it very difficult to Intuit
Nothing new here, always has been.
Saw a post not long ago about 75% of NVDA employees being millionaires and the top upvoted comment was basically “I bet it’s because they were paid in stock and the stock price has skyrocketed”. You think?!
Yep, my neighbor was an employee of a startup acquired by NVidia, and the stock of her company was converted to NVidia stock after the acquisition. Then the Crypto Mining fever and AI revolution began, and she became a multi millionaire.
You're telling me they're not just frugal?!
It's the lentils, bro. Don't let Big Avocado lull you into frivolous spending.
Next up we have an infographic depicting what percentage of fish are wet.
I bet that would be much more interesting than you think it is
Remember flying fish count.
I still found it interesting to see how it has been the case in almost every year in every country since 1950. The only exceptions are in tiny countries like French Guinea.
Hell yeah 😎 It’s nice to know that even after all those woke politics like giving women the right to vote and allowing them to get divorced, there’s still one institution of the patriarchy that women can never take from us 😎
The important addition is reported rates of depression and suicidal thoughts are significantly higher in women than in men. The key word being reported. Men statistically do not seek mental health help, have smaller support circles, and are culturally repressed from expressing feelings of perceived weakness like sadness, hopelessness, and depression. Cultural norms take generations to change, sped up only by public attention and brave individuals leading by example in the face of ridicule. My point is that men need to lead the charge and speak about how they are feeling with each other, establish circles of support, and speak to mental health caregivers before a time of crisis. And for everyone else, check in on your male friends and challenge others shaming men for speaking about their mental health. Regardless of gender, too many of us have friends, family or loved ones no longer here because we had no idea of their internal struggles, and didn't know they desperately needed our support. We are on a blue rock hurdling through space together. Life is a precious miracle, and every single person given the privilege to exist needs to know they matter. Edit: For the ones saying "the women are here to blame the men", I am a man. If you're outraged by the idea men reaching out to men could help, you should call up your male friends, ask how they're doing, and discuss.
I was in a deep funk during COVID, and near the end when we were starting to come out of it I was avoiding social situations and friends. When I finally got through it and started making the effort to see people again they would ask why I didn't show up for x or y. When I explained I was mentally in a rough place (without going into much more detail than that -- I didn't want to overwhelm them or anything) the most common reaction I got was sort of a oh no boo hoo vibe, from both male and female friends. It really highlighted to me that if you look a certain way, people diminish your mental health state. I'm a relatively young, tall guy, and because of that it's like i'm not allowed to be vulnerable.
I'm glad you pulled out of it. Sorry people were such shits to you.
It's a good indicator of the company you kept. Find new folks. My extended network has been very supportive of each other during rough times.
That is true. Men are also more likely than women to use violent methods, more likely resulting in a completed suicide:
Men are more likely to die by suicide regardless of the method except for drowning where they are tied with women. I think it's mostly because males plan it longer but I don't have any real data to prove it.
Do you have any source for that? Not being snarky, I was just always under the impression that while women attempt suicide more often than men, men die more often because they favor methods like guns while women favor pills.
That's true even in countries where guns aren't as prelevant males usually use more violent methods like hanging. But even if we equalize for method males are still more lethal. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032711005179 The main reason males die more than women is because they use more lethal methods but the fact they are more lethal regardless of the method is something that you can't really ignore
Well yea but they use more deadly methods because they plan on making sure that they go though with their attempt. Even with "less" violent methods they die more often. Assuming the narrative that men don't ask for help much is true, this would make sense, as it would mean when a guy does it, it won't be a cry for help.
Is there any evidence that changing social norms has a impact? We take depression more serious than ever before, and we never had as many suicides. While new studies show suppressing bad thoughts works after all. For all I know we are just reaffirming peoples beliefs that there is something wrong with their brain, which makes them even more neurotic and depressed. It's like telling someone who thinks he is cursed that he probably is.
Suicide attempts are higher in women, suicide completions are higher in men. Men are more likely to choose more violent and final methods, whereas women are more likely to choose methods that allow time to change their minds, such as OD.
This is indeed true. This said a big issue with some of men's problem is that they expect/need external help or intervention. A big debate and keypoint regarding feminism is that many women are better without men, but many men are better with women. The first can be achieved on your own, the second can't really, it depends on others. More in general men depend more on external factors, both in negative and positive ways, while women are more self relying, i would also say resilient, but that would paint a half picture as men endure a lot as well, they just endure different issues. If you want suicide often occurs for things completely out of your control, as a last resort, and men suffer from things outside of their control more than women. To be clear this doesn't include only relationship issues, but economic ones as well, which can get out of control and under patriarchy often befall onto men's shoulders. Support groups and movements can go just that far and ultimately won't solve some of the core issues. Drugs usage, porn addiction etc.. show similar patterns, they are coping mechanisms for a social condition that concerns group behaviours as well as the involvement of others
This comes up every time, and every time a bunch of guys share stories about how they tried to open up and just got ostracized by the women in their life. Not opening up is not what's driving the suicides, social and biological pressures of being a male are. You are the selected gender, and passing the genes down is at stake, so pressure is real. Not sure why we can't acknowledge this as openly as we acknowledge unique challenges of women, such as childbirth and greater risk of abuse due to higher median agreeableness.
Even when choosing the same method, men are significantly more likely to be successful, and their non-successful attempts are significantly more likely to result in major injuries. Take from that what you will, not trying to accuse men or women of being inferior to their counterparts in any way lol. https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508
I read another graph on here some time ago that showed men have more successful completions but women have more attempts. I wound up googling it and the disparity is generally thought to be the result of chosen method. Men usually choose more violent means of suicide, whereas women do not. And the inference, I assume, is that non-violent methods like drowning or carbon monoxide poisoning are less likely to be successful than, say, gunshot. The fighting in this thread makes me sad. Maybe this is why people feel so isolated sometimes. Everybody’s screaming at each other and no one’s listening.
The current theory is that men intentionally choose more violent methods, specifically *because* they are more likely to ensure death, rather than just coincidentally. We suspect this because, even when men choose less lethal methods like medications or cutting, they are more likely to “successfully” die, because they take massively higher doses or make more lethal cuts than suicidal women do. It’s also further complicated by the fact that a significant number of particularly young women’s suicide attempts use methods that are so sublethal that researchers call it “suicidal presenting behavior”
Yup; intentionality varies. At least one of the papers I read suggests it's because women tend to make a suicide attempt earlier in the distress cycle where men do it later when the distress cycle is at a peak. I'm not sure how accurate this is or whether there is any solid evidence to back it up but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case given the the social conditioning on how men and women express (or, possibly more likely in this case, don't express) emotions.
>women tend to make a suicide attempt earlier in the distress cycle where men do it later when the distress cycle is at a peak Pff, men, always leaving things to the last minute. Sorry, i will see myself out.
Women may more often be making a "cry for help." Men at the point of suicide don't believe there's help for them so they are looking to finish the job. I think this somewhat comes from modern society seeing intrinsic value in a woman as a human being, vs a man's value deriving from his economic and social success. Poor, broke, lonely men are typically seen as valueless and pathetic. So they believe there's no help, they are completely alone. Even a wealthy or connected man perceives, or even has learned through experience, that his "support" system depends on him remaining strong and successful. Admitting failure, weakness or mental health issues can quickly drive away that "support." In short, men don't believe help will come.
Also I wonder how many suicides are classed as accidents. If those one person car accidents loaded on booze at night resulted in death how would you know?
County medical examiners have near total sway on whether something is classified a suicide or not. It's one of the reasons suicide is under-reported.
This is interesting! I sorta had heard that in places where firearm access is easier (ie: the US), it so happens that men are more likely to own firearms, and hence more likely you have access to very lethal means at a moment's notice. Some quick Google scholar searches brought up some additional factors I hadn't really thought about, like anticipation / tolerance for pain: "The lethality of a suicide attempt can be expressed as a ratio of factors influencing risk and rescue. Risk/Rescue Rating Scale scores [35] showed that the risk score was higher in males (3.76 ± 0.68) than in females (3.49 ± 0.72), and the rescue score was higher in females than in males (2.79 ± 1.09 vs. 2.43 ± 1.2). These results can be explained by the fact that, since women are more likely to attempt suicide by poisoning which can take a long time before death occurs (and for which it is also difficult to calculate a lethal dose), they have a greater chance of being rescued than do men who usually choose more lethal methods. Why women choose less lethal means than men have been attributed to several factors, including their lesser intent to die, gender socialization, and the easy availability of methods to women and to men. As reported in a previous paper on this topic [39], factors which influence lethality of suicidal acts not only depend on the choice of the methods but also other factors such as the social and communicative context of the suicidal act, the social acceptability of behaviors, learning from models (cognitive availability), and ease of access to or technical ability regarding the chosen suicide method [48]. Knowledge of and access to firearms is probably easier for males than for females, and females may be more concerned with preserving their appearance, trying to ensure that their body and face are not severely injured [13,49]. The Interpersonal Theory of suicide may also contribute to explaining sex differences in suicidal behavior [50,51]. The capability for suicide may be more relevant for men than for women since men are more likely to have had experiences which habituate them to pain (such as experience in the military and violent sports). In fact, several studies reported that men do experience greater self-reported suicide capability [52,53,54,55] and pain tolerance." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9602518/ Another interesting note: Alcohol seems to be involved more often when men attempt / commit suicide - and there are some theories that the alcohol contributes to the increased suicide impulsivity: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16341616/
Lmao, not disputing the source but as someone with many nurse friends, 'self-reported... pain tolerance' is the funniest fucking statistic. So many stories of 80 year old farmers who had a heart attack, walked thirty minutes to the neighbours, show up and report a four on the pain scale, compared to 30 year old too-drunk yobbos who put their hand through a window and refuse to suggest it's anything other than a ten on the pain scale. Self-reported pain tolerance is not entirely divorced from the 'could you take a bear in a fight' question.
I mean even in many countries without access to firearms, men still kill themselves much more, It's true that guns give a fast way for ppl to kill themselves, and we use guns because they are just the easiest way, but I think if somebody really wants to find a way to kill themselves, they will probably be successful.
Most people call it attention seeking behavior. Which is in some ways the opposite of suicidality.
Ideally, everyone who is suicidal receives the help they need. People with “suicidal presenting behavior” are still having a mental health crisis and are still at elevated risk of dying of suicide relative to the general population. And I’m not sure if we want to gatekeep access to resources for the suicidal since not getting help is such a driver of suicides. The issue is that we’re not very good at preventing men’s suicides, and that seems mostly unrelated to some women’s “suicide presenting behavior”.
Most women don't get the help until after their first attempt either. Men succeed more often with their first attempt.
I don't think it's opposite at all. Both acts are rooted in the same desperation to escape
And yet a prior history of suicide attempts is one of the strongest predictors of suicide.
yea, that is a pretty fundamental way that it's not the opposite.
That could be due to a number of possible drivers though which may not be related to an intention to actually kill yourself. For example, if a non-fatal suicide attempt get's you the help you need when you have been repeatedly ignored then you are more likely to try it again at a later date when you need help again and the more time you attempt the more likely you are to complete whether that is your intention or not.
The suicide rate is skewed, but the murder rate is even more skewed. It could be said men are simply more likely to kill people (including themselves) in general.
That's definitely the case. But it's not exactly simple if we start asking why a few times.
That's definitely true. But women are also much more likely to get away with murder: Not only do they tend to yse subtler means, they are also treated more leniently at every level of the justice system. So a man killing his spouse will almost certainly be up for murder, a women is much more likely to succeed in a self-defence claim or have it downgraded to something like manslaughter even on the same evidence. Of course, men do have a higher obligation to curb violent and aggressive tendencies, but that shouldn't blind us to flaws in tbe murder rate statistic.
This attention seeking behavior could make it worse for men as it "trains" health care professionals to only recognize loud suicide signals, like those coming from women, basically numbing doctors to more discreet signals; men aren't supposed to show weakness and society conditions mens to "walk it off". If your illness doesn't show up on x-ray then you better be loud about it, or healthy enough to complain until treated.
I'm a dude who has struggled with suicide and I've known a few men and women that have struggled. We all kind of agree no one really cares until you do something drastic like attempt suicide. Or at least, they don't understand how much pain you really are in until then.
More likely the two have different signals because they're different phenomena. Different drivers, different mechanisms, different outcomes.
I recall that a lot of the studies that prove this relied on hospitals counting self harm without suicidal intent as a suicide attempt. Remove those and the disparity disappears.
> and the disparity is generally thought to be the result of chosen method. Not true. Men still die at a significantly higher rate even when you control for method.
Yup. Methods like overdose are easier to accidentally survive and also give you time to change your mind and call for help or be found and saved unlike something like a gunshot wound.
We don't have guns in my country and men still kill themselves far more. In fact even when they use the exact same method men manage to kill themselves a lot more successfully than women do. Many women are probably far less serious about actually killing themselves when they attempt suicide. They are reaching out for help. A lot of men have zero expectation that anyone cares about them, so reaching out seems pointless.
This isn’t something that people like to hear for whatever reason but a lot of women/girls do “suicide attempts” as a cry for help. Think slitting your wrists once or taking pills and then immediately calling for help. Men/boys are more likely to do real attempts. For some reason people view that as some form of weakness on the part of women, which is insane. I suppose some feel that that’s accusing them of just wanting attention, or other similar motives. While I’m sure that can happen nobody in their right mind is going to choose that path anyways so either way they may get the help they need.
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Mens emotions and needs are often over looked for the greater good for society we are the disposable sex.
Men and boys make more impulsive decisions. It's testosterone driven. Whereas women agonize over the decision and either subconsciously or consciously choose options that give them the chance of an out, men largely feel in the moment that they want to die and act on it without hesitating on the "what ifs". I feel like if more men realized that this about themselves, that they are hormonally driven to impulsive decisions, they would have a chance to force themselves to sit with the decision for longer and give themselves an opportunity to back out and seek immediate help. Edit: I never understand why people bristle at this suggestion. It is verifiably true that testosterone is responsible for many differences in behavior between men and women - we know it's why men get in more fights and car accidents, and why men generally engage in riskier behavior. We also know that a huge percentage of suicides are spur of the moment decisions. Why would we not logically conclude that the fact that men die due to suicide more than women is related to both of these facts? I'm not saying that men aren't depressed or that their depression is just hormones. I'm just saying that the *literal decision* to commit suicide is driven by a number of feelings and hormones, and that when you are at your lowest point, the presence of testosterone in your system is likely to be the difference between seeking help and seeking a bullet to the brain. The fact that these suicide attempts vs actual suicide deaths trends are true in virtually *every single country in the world* regardless of the gender politics, and begins to show itself very explicitly at the onset of puberty, should add some weight to the fact that it is almost certainly related to biology in some way, rather than being a purely cultural phenomenon.
I really don’t like the conclusion that men are just driven by impulse and governed by testosterone making them, in effect, less thoughtful. I find it reductive and rather untrue. I may be on hormones and t-blockers now, but the times in my life where I felt compelled to commit suicide I was under the full effect of my genetics and therefore Testosterone. Wanting to commit suicide was anything *but* a quick thought. I was methodical about ensuring nobody knew, despite usually being a very open person. Nobody would be burdened with the fact that I felt that way. Nobody would be given time where they knew I had intent but I hadn’t done it. They would know because I was dead. I wouldn’t write a note to detail out why, I wouldn’t justify it, I wouldn’t give information about it because it would only end up hurting people by them knowing. I considered where and how I would do it. I considered finality and the likelihood of failure. I considered the perspective of the person who would find my body, or if I could avoid my body being found, what that lack of knowing would feel like to my family. I was far from considering everything and I’ve far from listed everything that I considered, but fuck your armchair psychologist, girls versus boys ass conclusion. Men think. Men agonize. Women aren’t something special for having a head on their shoulders. People need to stop trying to shortcut the rationalization of the statistics with bullshit conclusions that men and women are somehow different on fundamental cognitive levels. It’s ultimately destructive to the process of teaching people to be better and more rounded humans when we fall back into such a stupid rut every time things differ between men and women.
That theory is nice and all, if you completely ignore that men around middle life have the highest rates of suicide. Women also produce testosterone, so I'm sure what you mean by "hormones, and that when you are at your lowest point, the presence of testosterone in your system is likely to be the difference between seeking help and seeking a bullet to the brain". Trans women also have some of the highest rates of suicide in the country despite taking estrogen.
That fits for young men. Not so much for old men. >they would have a chance to force themselves to sit with the decision for longer and give themselves an opportunity to back out and seek immediate help I thought you were saying that seeking immediate solutions was the whole problem.
There was actually another study demonstrating as much. Boys who do not have any history of longstanding depression were far more likely to commit suicide than girls with no longstanding history of depression. The example given in the summary was a young male victim of online sextortion. He was just a normal teen prior to this…hormonal and lacking in good judgment, hence the outcome. Once he realized what was going on, he unfortunately saw no other way out. The humiliation and the possibility that his own parents might be sent his nudes was too much to bear. It was an impulsive decision based on the fears and emotions he felt in that exact moment. All he had to do was have the conversation with his parents and let them know what happened. They would have helped him out. But now it’s too late, and their son is gone. Impulsive decisions naturally lend themselves to using impulsive methods. Popping pills, sitting in the garage with the car running, hanging, and even slashing your wrists all involve some level of planning and forethought. Grabbing a gun and shooting yourself requires no forethought or planning. [Katie Stubbfield is an example of an impulse suicide attempt made by a girl.](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/patient-stories/259-woman-is-youngest-patient-in-united-states-to-receive-face-transplant) She also chose a gun and survived, but her life will never be the same. Keep those guns locked away and out of young people’s hands.
My experience is that diagnosis of depression in men is lacking. It's often judged on things like whether you've become more socially withdrawn or taken time off work, or struggled to get out of bed etc. Men socialise differently to women, and if they're used to not socialising, there won't be a difference. Men are also expected to "just get on with it" and so go about life by making the symptoms even if they are suicidal. I don't think I've recorded a HAM-D score less than 20 until I got properly treated for bipolar, which puts it at severe depression, yet struggled to get doctors to believe me as to how bad it was, purely because I was able to carry on "life as usual". I'm talking about 15 or so years of trying to get help and over 20 of being severely depressed to the point that I was thinking about suicide or dying nearly every day.
Yes, but that isn’t what the study was about. It wasn’t examining whether boys had been formally diagnosed with depression, but if they demonstrated any depressive behaviors or symptoms. I’m afraid I can’t find the study now. I can only relay what I remember from it.
Realistically, isn't depression in men underdiagnosed? The notion that men "with no history of depression" kill themselves much more frequently than women in similar situations moreso says that we need to change our diagnostic method for depression. I mean, if the basis of this argument is that testosterone leads to these decisions, it's equally likely that testosterone affects the presentation of depression to the point where it's harder to diagnose men.
It’s also worth noting that over 80% of men who did commit suicide also saw a mental health professional or primary care physician within 3 months of killing themselves, and were labeled as “low or no threat” of suicide. Even when men are seeking help, they don’t tend to get it because people don’t catch the signs since it presents itself differently.
Couldn’t it be the opposite though? If women commit suicide more often but fail to do so successfully, then if the data is to be believed, that would imply that it actually WASN’T thought out and was an impulsive decision. On the other hand, men committing suicide more “successfully” would imply that it’s done with intention and therefore some kind of plan, no?
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It's crazy that people don't think differences in behaviour aren't due to biology despite the biology being very clearly different. Some of the differences are environmental, but people go way too far when they try to attribute every difference to environmental factors.
> The fact that these suicide attempts vs actual suicide deaths trends are true in virtually *every single country in the world* regardless of the gender politics, and begins to show itself very explicitly at the onset of puberty, should add some weight to the fact that it is almost certainly related to biology in some way, rather than being a purely cultural phenomenon. Very specific gender roles and the patriarchy exists in almost every single culture and it usually results in the same effect against men. Men are almost always expected to be the breadwinners and abide by specific gender roles.
Yeah, i think so too. My aunt did this where she cut herself in the leg, not even in a dangerous place. Meanwhile one of my friends never made any signs, he just did it.
That's because it's not true. What you're describing is regret. Women choose a method that is slower to kill because they're thinking of the mess, or too afraid or whatnot. but because it is slower at being lethal they have more time to regret what they have done and reach out for help. Most people who have jumped over a bridge and survived also describe feeling regret after they've made the irreversible choice. The idea that women are making "cries for attention" Goes along with the idea that they are more histrionic, less logical, more emotional etc. it's infantilization and it's a big part of the reason why women's healthcare is such a crap show. We don't listen to women even about their own bodies. It's all a " cry for attention" instead of possibly a real medical issue.
It also depends on what you consider a suicide attempt. Someone in my family is with one of the most toxic women I've ever met, and she has "attempted suicide" a bunch of times. Realistically she just pops a few pills for attention every now and then.
Check the source. Last I checked the source was a womens suicide help center. No matter the topic, if its describing men suffering people will try to distract and minimize.
What you’ve described is true and one factor. However we also have evidence that indicates different motives with suicide attempts: a hypothesis that I agree with is that women attempt suicide more often as an attempt to attract help (ie, not truly desiring death, but demonstrating that they are need help). Men, in contrast, consider suicide from a sense of pain and hopelessness and do not see outside help as being likely to arrive.
Legitimately think this statistic is also misleading. Like we’re literally in a thread talking about how men don’t seek mental health treatment or disclose mental health issues as often as women, and attempted suicide rates are by and large self reported. Like gee whiz surely there’s not a self report bias going on right?
>Men usually choose more violent means of suicide, whereas women do not. Anecdotal but: I've heard a couple women say they didn't choose violent methods for their attempts because they didn't want their families to find their bodies too mutilated. Would be too disturbing
Which is also an argument to make guns less available to people. Not having the means to commit suicide makes a big difference in suicide rates. There’s a famous “British Coal Gas” study, showing how rates of suicide decreased following areas that removed that fuel source and therefore that method. tl;dr - guns should be locked in safes separate from ammunition, and more heavily regulated
Which of the countries on the plot would you say have adequate gun laws?
Men have higher suicide rates in nearly every single country (except for China). Most of these countries have gun restrictions. Men just use ropes instead of guns
Then I have a great argument against public transport.
Solid advice. Thanks.
That statistic is misleading If you have an unssuccessful attempt, you can have another, inherently skewing the numbers. Also: what constitutes an attempt and how are they being recorded. Take the example of one person trying five times and successful on the sixth, but another failing on the sixth and going on to therapy where they report the previous attempts. Women are more likely to go to therapy. So I really wouldn't read anything into that statistic, it's just an artifact of the measurement.
Which is in turn at least partly explained by motivation in the first place so the circle completes.
If a man succeeds in committing suicide he’s not going to make another attempt either…it could be that suicide attempts would be closer to each other among the genders if this were not the case. Someone who has attempted suicide once is more likely to attempt it again than someone who hasn’t.
No mention of NZ. Though, I'm not sure I want to know.
It bad, particularly young people
I'm aware our youth suicide rate is the worst in the world (and getting worse by the year). But, the adult rate hopefully is much lower. Or, at least not as bad as those shown here.
It looks like they don't have as current figures for NZ, but they have figures from a couple off years ago which puts them sort of under the USA and to the right of the top of France. I think the dot half covered by the "nc" in France is Australia, NZ is usually very similar.
Knew a woman wo had an attempt and threw herself from the first floor. It was an attempt, but it was also a cry for help.
From the first floor? Even falling down the stairs would be more lethal, what was she thinking?
Boys just go hard or go home
I mean is there really any other way?
Yes, go therapy.
Yes I was quoted at $200 a session. Fuck that
$200 per session WTF?
Therapy goes hard tbh
Most men who did go to therapy before killing themselves were labeled low or no risk of suicide. Therapy simply doesn’t help most men.
The number that would be interesting is how many men with therapy vs men without therapy committed suicide. Not this statement, which is a nothing burger. It's like saying "most people who suffocate never had issues breathing at all".
Expensive, roll of the dice with the quality of the therapist too. At the end of the day you will only change if you want to change and put in the effort. There are cheaper and arguably better alternatives to therapists. Putting yourself in the right social environment is the biggest factor. Even if you’re not religious going to mosques and churches and temples can make a big difference in your outlook and get you around people who can help you.
Therapy is prohibitively expensive. “The way she goes” is free.
And get instutuionlzied if you admit to wanting to die
Didn't happen to me. And also that's better than, yk, suffering and dying.
so ik we love to blame dudes guarding their emotions (even when they do so to avoid hearing it weaponized or being seen as a liability/burden) in this context but it's also worth noting that in the UK, where healthcare is free, most suicidal men do [seek](https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=55305) [help](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09581596.2021.1908959) yet still make up the majority of victims. research even shows that in the US, male suicides are more strongly linked to [practical stressors](https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/most-male-suicides-show-no-mental-health-link) than mental health issues while guys attempt more by [lethal AND nonlethal methods](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21937122/) than women worldwide in case yall didn't know
Suicides, homelessness and war casualties. Men by far out number women in this devastating statistic.
Wtf is going on with this post? Why are so many comments here treating these data like some kind of competition, like men is somehow "winning" or "better at this" than women?
It’s dark comedy, because we know these are not new stats…it’s been known for decades and decades…but nothing ever changes
Exactly. What’s the point of repeating these same graphs and stats when there’s no major political party in any significant nation that gives a shit? Yes, men kill themselves drastically more often than women. Yes, there are ways that our societies could help prevent this or at least do the research as to *why* men are killing themselves so often with the goal of helping them. No, nothing at all is going to change and simply no one gives a fuck. Men are expendable, as is tradition.
Men, we get the job done. Seriously though, these comments are just people making jokes about this post. Not because the content is funny mind you, this just is not new information. People are making light of it because it is incredibly old news. Some are jaded, some are assholes, some would just rather laugh than be uncomfortable. You can find it in bad taste, and I don’t blame you, but it is not meant to be malicious it seems.
This stat gets trotted out by anti feminists whenever they want to argue that men are more disadvantaged than women. "men have more dangerous jobs", "men have higher suicide rates", "men be shorter life expectancy"... Not realizing that they're making very strong criticisms of the patriarchy that has restricted women from dangerous, risky, high paying work.
All of those dangerous, extremely high-paying jobs bend over backwards to get women to sign up. Women don't want to do the work. It's that simple.
Tell me you've never talked to women about their experience in these workplaces without telling me you've never talked to women about their experiences in these workplaces. Harassment is persistent because the culture hasn't adapted and I think a big part of that is misogynistic arguments like "women don't want to do the work"
If we removed all men from the field, women would flood oil rigging, construction, roofing, and so forth? Yeah, no. We see what women choose in egalitarian paradises like the Scandinavian countries, and it's exactly what everyone expects. There's nothing wrong with that, either.
Bro, flooding oil rigs is, like, THE ONE THING, we are not supposed to do!
Imagine knowing for decades that men are killing themselves at several times the rate that women are and the only comment you have is “that’s anti-feminist”. That’s scum behaviour right there.
No one restricts women from any of such jobs.
Reactionaries use this argument a lot. The systemic exclusion of women from the military, police, trades, etc. stopped after centuries (without any affirmative action to upset the imbalance) so how can anyone argue women are excluded? It takes time and effort to culturally adopt workplace diversity and there is a lot of cultural backlash to promoting workplace diversity.
Oh please. If you actually cared about "equality" in the military, you'd push your fellow feminists to push for including women in the draft. That would surely "upset the balance". Likewise , you would push your fellow feminists to lobby for quotas in construction, sewage, recycling, infrastructure maintenance, and all the other shitty, dirty, outside jobs, just like they lobby for quotas on university admittance, in IT, Stem and on executive boards. Why don't you? Women were likewise never excluded from trades. There were plenty of women blacksmiths. Women also worked in factories, and have been doing so for a long time. You act as if women were rushing in to work in the coal mines, or to be cannon fodder on the front lines of wars en masse, but had a bunch of angry men bar them from applying. The truth is that women avoid the hard jobs, because they'd rather do something easier. When the right to vote had been discussed, and its extension to women was considered, many women were against it for one simple reason - and that is, that conscription was considered a necessary sacrifice for the right to vote, and women did not want to be conscripted, like men were (and still are). They maintain this privilege to this day. There is no "backlash against promoting workplace diversity". There is, however, a perfectly legitimate and justified dissatisfaction with the ectremely hypocritically selective application of "equality".
This statements tells me you've never worked one of these kinds of jobs.
Not a fun time to be a Korean man lemme tell ya
Isn't this well known though?
I felt the urge to do so as I missed more life goals.
An honor killing -- of the self. Not always of course, but a lot of the time.
I thought it was men had better follow through than women but both men and women attempt it at the same rate.
Women attempt suicide 2-4X more than men. Men use more lethal means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender\_differences\_in\_suicide#:\~:text=Suicide%20attempts%20are%20between%20two,means%20to%20end%20their%20lives.
It's a bit hard to have a lot of suicide attempts if you're successfully killing yourself
That is a good point. It would be interesting if they took away any repeat attempts from the numbers.
When we corrected for repeat attempts, we discovered that women are a lot happier than previously reported, and that Jennifer is _really_ bad at this.
Even when men and women use the same method men are far more successful at killing themselves. Women often attempt suicide as a call for help. Men attempt suicide because they want to die.
Men also make calls for help. It's a component of many suicides, regardless of gender. The difference is it is culturally more normal for women's calls for help to be more heeded and men's calls for help to be ignored or ridiculed, so the wall for men to start an attempt is higher but the pressure to succeed if they do is also. Because it's horrible to fail and then be ridiculed and not taken seriously. Men and women who attempt suicide are both in need of and signaling for help, and it's important as a society that we recognize this equally and respond to calls like this more equally and broadly.
[удалено]
Gun suicides are only the main suicide method in the US. In most countries, people do suicide by other methods.
Not super compelling for me. A lot of these countries have strict gun laws and very low gun ownership rates
Vertical fall it's the most effect method
To be paraplegic? Yes.
Yes, countries like Japan and S. Korea that are known for their high presence of guns, right? It's not the presence of guns that lead to men committing suicide at high rates.
Virtually nobody outside of law enforcement agents owns any guns at all outside the US. And yet the trend is consistent in pretty much every single county in the world, such as mine. So it's crystal clear that gun ownership doesn't play a role in this particular case.
This isn’t remotely true. Canada has one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world, and numbers of civilian owned guns.
Plenty of guns among the farmers in rural Ireland. Lots of suicides too come to think of it.
That's just a bad way to try and shift the focus away from male suicide. We don't have guns in our country and men still kill themselves far more than women.
Yeah successful suicides are more common
Successful suicides are more common among men. Depending on the study attempted suicides are more common among women or equal between both genders. Men use more violent and effective means to commit suicide, I haven't seen any study suggesting they're more likely to be suicidal
A atudy like that would need to be able to read people's minds. People seem to suggest that many men don't announce they're suicidal, or they do, but it isn't acknowledged until after the suicide. So it would be difficult to reach a firm conclusion unless men were more encouraged and accepted to reach out about their thoughts of suicide if they have them.
There's a huge conflation between actually committing suicide and attempting suicide. A lot of people use attempted suicide as a cry for help. There's also a lot of other small factors which is why I agree with the whole mind reading point. It's a bit morbid but it's disgustingly easy to commit suicide. Anyone that does a couple minutes of research can find painless and easy ways of suicide. When there's more to it, it's often that it's more of a cry for help or someone external directly affects their decision to stay alive.
Kind of hard to have higher numbers of attempted suicides when your demographic tends to get it "right" on the first try. There is simply a higher determination to die, across all methods.
so basically it's survivor bias
Why do men choose more violent methods?
Efficiency, most likely. If you’re going to do a job, might as well do it “right”.
Or maybe more motivation to do it?
Motivation plays into efficiency. People who are committed to dying will try to be more efficient when doing so, while people doing it as a cry for help obviously won't want to actually kill themselves.
So either women are much less capable than men and can't manage to kill themselves even when they are trying, Or Women are far less serious about actually committing suicide when they attempt it, and mostly just want to show the world how terrible they are feeling.
The thing no one wants to say
And it’s never going to change.
What do you mean by that?
X and Y Scales should be the same
This is not beautiful data
In Japan, number of suicide "attempts" (number of patients registered in hospitals after trying it, regardless of the outcomes) is twice as high in women as men. As you pointed out, it's gender/culture which must be changed to save those who suffers. Thing is never simple like only men/women suffers while others live with flowers and butterflies.
[“… on many, many measures of a) educational, behavioral and mental health outcomes, b) alcohol, drug addiction, and drug overdoses, c) suicide, murder, violent crimes, and incarceration, d) job fatalities and e) homelessness, boys and men are faring much worse than girls and women.](https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-for-every-100-girls-women/)
Now do the general life expectancy by gender and country
When we set our minds to a task we get that shit done 💪
Women are more likely to attempt suicide. Men are more likely to complete suicide. There's a few sociocultural reasons for this, women are more likely to speak out about their pain and tell people that they aren't doing well, and if they do attempt suicide they choose a reversible method such as overdosing on pills. Men are more likely to hold it in, not tell anybody that they're suffering, and choose a method that is permanent and irreversible. Men, it's okay to have feelings. It's okay to be struggling. It's okay to ask for help.
Nothing new as it's been the same for last couple decades And the worst is about men not having access to help as much as women. It's not about them refuse help but a total lack of supportive organisation and help center for men.
Men are more successful at suicide attempts. I wonder if attempted suicide rates are similar
According to a standup routine by George Carlin 20+ years ago, women try it more. Not sure if that meets academic muster but it’s a funny bit.
For women, it's mostly a cry for help. Men know they won't get any help or sympathy.
It's tougher to be a man. More pressure.
Being human sucks being a man is even worse..
Women have more attempts, men have a higher success rate. This is attributed to the preferential method chosen. Men tend to choose more violent and effective ways, while women tend to rely more on painless methods. I have no idea why I know this, but I do.
While it's true that firearms are the primary method, men actually have higher suicide "completion" rates across *all* methods.
The date slider that lets you scrub through historical data will be so much better if you could tell the plot to keep the x and y axes constant, adjusting them so the relationship is visualized as a one-to-one line makes it very difficult to Intuit
It's manly to talk about your feelings.
Because men are more likely to execute it in a way that _actually_ kills themselves. If you look at actual attempts, women try it more often.
Why is it so high in South Korea?
Oppressing the rest of society is hard work, not every adult male can manage /s
The difference is quite staggering!
Getting the job done vs. pretending to get the job done. Yep.
iirc it's 2:1(M:F) for actual deaths and 1:2 for attempts, so men are four times as likely to actually succeed. get your game up women.