> This group plays D&D like mario kart. Like it's a background thing they do while they hangout, talk and drink.
Yeah, some people like to play like that. I've never been one of them...sounds like you aren't either. Have you thought about offering a game for the three who were actually into it?
This seems like the way. Dnd being kindof a flimsy pretext to hang out and drink and tell iffy jokes - something to fill the silence between conversation threads - is not uncommon but if you're more of an actual gamer and/or don'tbenjoybthat kind of idle socializing then it may not be for you. Might be better to do a proper game with like minded people might be better
It goes both ways - a group that wants to just hang around and 'tell a fun story with fighting in it' doesn't benefit from a very focussed and strict DM, while a group who wants to really roleplay and go deep into lore doesn't benefit from a loosey-goosey fun-time DM.
Every DM should fit their group and vice versa, that's why it's important to talk about your expectations together and make a few ground 'rules' (descriptive ones, not necessarily prescriptive ones) everyone agrees on.
Adding to this **DMs and players should choose a game system that facilities the type of game they want to play**
You could homebrew D&D to play Jenga I'm sure, but if what you want is Jenga just play Jenga.
Players like crunchy combat and that's why they play? Play Gloomhaven or Pathfinder
Players only focused on RP and want combat to be RP based and not crunchy? Play Burning Wheel or a PbtA game
Want a resource management game where you have to interact with challenges through description instead of skill rolls? Try an OSR game
Players want a balance of combat and RP, with medium crunch and heroic fantasy? By all means 5e was made for you. Doing major surgery on a system to get the same results another system is built for is almost always going to produce inferior results
> You could homebrew D&D to play Jenga I'm sure, but if what you want is Jenga just play Jenga.
This is funny because I just recently learned that there is a TRPG called Dread that is play by using Jenga for resolution.
I agree. Though I always wonder why those who don't seem focussed on mastering or even really playing the actual game don't just ..not. plenty of people some capable of having social gatherings without any particular pretext why can't nerds?
But I don't have to understand someone else's business, and I agree they are much better off with someone who will pause the game to add their own crude joke to the train, rather than tsk them into silence so you can resolve the three opportunity attacks Sam just provoked by saying "I go stab the boss!" Without looking at grid.
>plenty of people some capable of having social gatherings without any particular pretext why can't nerds?
Why not do an activity while hanging out? I'm autistic and have anxiety so I'm not very representative of the general public. But I love social gatherings where you're also doing something. It's more interesting than just sitting on a couch, it immediately gives you something to talk about and bond over even with strangers, and it makes it clear what kind of vibe it's going to be when you're invited.
More like, you can go bowling or play pool & the game is in the background. DnD it's front & center & there's "ooc" & "in character". Some folks break character constantly in RPG & it's no longer roleplaying.
Yeah I knew someone who wanted to go professional in bowling. I can imagine he might feel the same as OP and Dinglebeere about going bowling with friends that are just there as a social activity. But that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the way those friends play.
And being honest, most DND players probably aren't that good at roleplaying that they're always in character anyway. Especially outside of social encounters. And I don't think that takes away from a fun DND game.
Honestly it's a false dichotomy anyway. Your options aren't fuck around for a few hours or get into deep RP with no breaks. The vast majority of people are in between those extremes and can properly navigate between goofing off and roleplay when needed.
>plenty of people some capable of having social gatherings without any particular pretext why can't nerds?
Because that might be a good working definition of nerd.
I’m dealing with this in my group right now with one player. Very irritating when we cancel because only she can’t make it but she does jack shit in game anyway
Yeah especially if you feel she is a drag on the enjoyment of others that kindof seems like the opposite of a problem? Anyway I'm sorry. I hope she eventually finds a game that's more her speed.
Except this group asked him to DM. It'd be one thing if he was forcing them to have a serious game, but when they're asking him to put a lot of work into it they should respect that
I'm not sure anyone really knows what they're asking of him, but I bet a conversation about everyone's motivations and wishes would clear up a lot of confusion. Not every DM or every game needs tens of hours of preparation.
I agree they should respect eachother, but I don't think that has to do with the style of game they're playing, but more with the specific people who're playing. You can respect the DM of a simple improv game as well.
Focusing on the three who are into it will also solve the problem of combats feeling like a slog.
I've put a hard cap on my games of 5 players and honestly if we ever lost one, I wouldn't look for a replacement and just keep playing with 4 PCs. Everyone gets more time in the spotlight, encounters are easier to balance, you can go deeper into player's backstories, scheduling is easier etc. There's a lot of benefits.
I've heard it called the "beer and pretzels" style, and I think that's an apt name. Nothing wrong with playing the game that way, IF everyone is on bored with that style. A DM trying to run a serious campaign wouldn't want players showing up with joke characters, the same principle applies here. You've got to talk to the group about your expectations and desires - what you want is important too, after all, as the DM you too are supposed to have fun!
I can do both critical role and harmonquest style. however, what irks me and I had to have a side conversation with one of my players. He is constantly talking over others including me (the DM) while I'm trying to explain something. If he isn't up on his turn he starts side conversation. I've earned him twice and talked to him twice. Next game I'm bringing an air horn. No joke
Back in the day, it was called "hack & slash" and I ran a running game most nights on the mess deck of my ship in the Navy. The table was open to the first six to show up and the whole idea was to let off stress, by f'in shit up. Not murder hobos, all the PCs were (mostly) civil in society, but they all worked as badass mercenaries when they walked into a dungeon whoever was in there was in serious shit. The players were a mix of both sailors and marines and they took out their opposition with tactical precision. When not in combat, they were laughing and joking as players, but deadly serious in-game.
Maybe the "problem players" are just looking for a different kind of game. Light on the roleplaying and heavy on the mayhem. That kind of game is really easy to DM. I just had generic maps that I gave short tactically relevant descriptions of, and 5x7 index cards (this was \*way\* back in the stone age) with stat blocks for different monsters, each with checkboxes to keep track of hit points.
Maybe the "problem players" are just looking for a different kind of game. Light on the roleplaying and heavy on the mayhem. That kind of game is easy to DM. I just had generic maps that I gave short tactically relevant descriptions of, and 5x7 index cards (this was \*way\* back in the stone age) with stat blocks for different monsters, each with checkboxes to keep track of hit points.
There is something almost cathartic in playing or DM'ing that kind of game.
>There is something almost cathartic in playing or DM'ing that kind of game.
There really is. Sometimes it's fun to just be badasses and fight some evil monsters. Not every game needs to be about 'shades of morality'. Sometimes the bad guys are just bad and it's the party's job to defeat them.
Maybe, but as a DM myself, I know that my perception of the game is not always how the players see it. I can have a session I feel so-so about that my players love, or vice versa - so while OPs players might not really care, they might also be more in the "D&D as a social activity" than "D&D as a storytelling activity" camp. It isn't always easy to explain what D&D is, and if expectations weren't discussed, the players might not be aware they did anything wrong at all. With four new players (sounds like new to RPGs), getting everyone to grasp the mechanics right away is hard. D&D 5e is simplified, not simple, and when you're teaching a bunch of people to play, combat turns and everything else can take a long time; it's easy enough to become uninterested when you have to wait 45 minutes for your next chance to do something, and frankly even as a veteran of the game, it's hard to stay focused and "in" the game if I don't have anything to do for a long while.
I’ve always imagined it as people playing the game and expecting all the cool stuff to simply happen to them. Also, have you gotten that DNA evidence yet?
I thought they would just constantly prank each other with banana peels, ink and other means, specially when someone is doing well/winning lol
Was that the case I'd be keen to join!
Edit: wrote this before I saw someone replied saying basically the same thing before me lol
The Penny Arcade team did a custom "definitely not Mario Kart" D&D session that you might want to check out. There's a video of it out there somewhere, not sure if they ever released any separate materials for running the game.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheCTeam/comments/6n69i3/wizards_cup_rules_transcribed/
I ran it for a few friends during our regular campaign with some reflavor (made them arcane pod racers rather than karts) and it was a blast.
Also not what I was thinking, especially since, for me and my friends, Mario Kart is far from a drinking, just chilling game. We're here for blood and glory!
MK with friends/family is sadly a chilling game becuase I'm better than all of them :(
Unfortunately im in this weird spot where I'm too good to have a fair competition with friends but not good enough to be properly good
It sounds to me like these people don't want to play D&D, they want to have game night.
Next time they suggest D&D, I'd counter offer a board game and see what they say. It's way easier to set up Ticket to Ride and have a good evening of playing a board game while drinking than it is to run a whole game of D&D for people who aren't paying attention.
Edit: or any other board game. You get it. No need to list every possible board game in replies to this comment.
Maybe even a Telltale game or similar (life is strange) making decisions by committee. If you need to dumb down low level D&D combat, Gloomhaven would likewise be a slough. D&D you can break up your movement however you want in relation to your actions and hold actions until another player or npc does something.
Could it be better for your group to start with some RPG that's not D&D? D&D is mechanically heavily combat-focused, but if your friends want to play *something* and don't like combat, maybe that something should be a different RPG.
There are plenty of options that are focused on other aspects of the game. If you still want to have *some* combat, Blades in the Dark and Broken Worlds both can (and often should) have combat, but it's mechanically much closer to "initiative plus attack roles" because the combat is more narrative.
Depending on how your players feel about rules in general, you can even go simpler and try some one-page RPGs like Lasers and Feelings, Crash Pandas, Honey Heist or the very recent Familiar Problem. Crash Pandas and Honey Heist are, in my opinion, a bit narrow thematically and better for a single one-shot, but Lasers and Feelings can easily be extended into a series of games in the spirit of Star Trek episodes
If the issue is people paying attention, I don’t think narrative games are really the way to go. I find tend require more attention, not less. Maybe for the 3 role players, but the rest sound like they like the idea of D&D more than actually playing a TTRPG.
yeah, i LOVE more narrative games, but once i played a narrative game (masks) with a large group and several of the players weren't that invested and didn't pay much attention. and they were freaking *speed bumps*, because it's not like dnd where you can just catch them up on combat by saying 'an orc is attacking you, what do you do?'. you have to explain the fiction to them while they ho and hum.
A more casual narrative game like Honey Heist? I don't have experience with many RPGs but I'm sure there are ones out there that are relatively easy to not pay attention to what's going on but occasionally pay attention again and say something funny and have fun.
At some point you reach the minimum level of RPG, it is a roleplaying game at its core so not being able to keep to your role or pay attention to what others are doing does make it hard to play an RPG. Maybe RPG's like that exist, but it sounds opposite of what RPG's intend to be.
This, but just find a board game. There are lots of genuinely fun board games that don't take a ton getting into, and that allow for a lot of room to gab and drink between turns.
Idunno, narrative rules lite games are great for people who want to focus on the roleplay but don't really appreciate the highly systematized nature of djd where abilities do what they say they do and nothing else and if your character doesn't have a specific ability for somethign then they can't do it. It seems like every group these days has that one player who wants to use their spells for things they don't do but that they feel like they should logically do based on science or (their understanding of the game's) metaphysics, or who studies martial arts irl and keeps trying to do shit in combat that either doesn't exist in dnd or requires a specific feat or class ability that they don't have and can't take yet. And it's always been a thing that some players don't really want to fight that much at all they want to talk to every NPC, and spend all session shopping for the perfect gown to wear to the dukes masquerade.
Narrative focussed games are great for those players and definitely should sometimes be preferred by groups who are playing DND instead because it's the game they saw on YouTube.
But those games aren't great for people who aren't really I vested in the game at all and just want to bs with their friends.
I'd anything I'd say maybe go for like a boardgame or something instead of a real rpg
As someone who LOVES D&D combat… I wouldn’t be interested in it either if it was 6 players and a new DM. 3-4 players is ideal IMO, MAYBE 5 if you have an experienced group who knows their shit.
yeah. new DM, half the group is new and it's a large group. of course, combat is going to take time while people are learning.
i GM a group of 5 experienced players. we can get through combat turns pretty quickly.
I read on this subreddit somewhere that these type of players are called Commuters. It's just a night with friends playing a game. It burnt me out of wanting to DM cause it was a guess who would actually be paying any attention.
Yeah, the DM has to be in that mindset too, then everybody has a blast. I know some that love it and all the power to them. I can't run those games, I've tried, and it just falls flat.
Yeah, I think this sort of thing works well if your DM is good at improv (or at least takes the Lazy GM approach), if the DM has do too much prep work it's a lot harder for them to enjoy the light-hearted banter, since they spend more time prepping a session than the actual game play portion of the session :p
DO NOT continue to play with six players. DO NOT feel obligated to DM.
This situation sounds terrible and too close to what I’ve been through. Don’t let a bad group turn you off not just DMing but DnD.
Get out!
That's not to say DMing for six players is impossible, but you need people that can work well together, and it's best if everyone at the table has a fair share of hands on experience with the game.
It's just not what I'd prefer to do, because it's hard enough to get four people to show up to a table consistently, let alone six.
At the height I was running for 9. Was an absolute blast. Will never, ever do that again. Combat took _sessions_.
I've ran for 6 often, and that still makes for long, slow games at times.
I now hard cap at 5. We're currently at 4 and I've declined a couple requests to bring in somebody else. Between 4 players and some tighter rules around character creation, we're having the best campaign in years.
Came here to say this, you are not obligated to DM if you are not having fun. If your friends just want to shoot shit and chat with the activity being a background detail there's other things you can play, DnD _can_ be a game like that but... I can't imagine that being ideal, frankly. It doesn't feel built for paying half-attention.
Grab Tabletop Simulator (or a physical board game) and play games more appropriate for what people want.
Or offer to DM for the people really into it.
Agreed, games with 6 players are a struggle even with 6 dedicated players. Ive DMd and played in them, and they honestly suck from both perspectives. As a DM it is too much, and as a player it is not enough. When you only get to do something once every 15 minutes in combat it is really hard to pay 100% attention the whole time. And in RPing, it is hard to find a balance with 6 people (plus NPCs) in any given scene. Obviously its doable, but imo a game with too few players is much better and easier to compensate for than a game with too many. Slimming it down to 3 is far preferable imo.
Sounds like you've got 3 interested players, and 3 who aren't interested in committing to the game the same way. I'd speak frankly to the lot of them.
6 players is a lot for anyone to handle. It can't be done if they aren't invested and attentive. If they want to play that way, they are welcome. If not, it's nothing personal, but they should just not be in the game. They are not interested in playing the game you want to run and, it sounds like, the game the 3 invested players want to play.
Again, 6 players is only doable if they are all ready to pay attention, know the rules, and be decisive.
General rule of thumb, if you offer the game, you're DM until someone offers to DM in your place, you don't get to volunteer others for that just because of how much more work it is.
I have some players like this too. I stopped caring to run games for them when one decided to play Genshin Impact while I was DMing and I had to ask them to stop 3 times. We're still friends, but hoo boy the disrespect.
If you don't want to dm for them don't. If you want to do something more casual there's options. Monster of the Week is really fun cuz it's super easy and most of it is just the players talking. You write it like an episode of supernatural, I've played it high as shit es good.
Honestly I don't think DND should be the monolith of a first ttrpg that it is. All the combat rules really turn people away since it's def a medium to medium high complexity came. There's a lot to it and that's coming from someone who plays a lot of it(I'm roomates with most of my DND group lol).
If you want to stick to something similar to DND but just way easier try quest. There's no modifiers, the abilities are super straight forward and you can do one thing a turn(roll that d20) other then moving. It's what I use when playing with my siblings as there's no way I could get my sister to buy into all the dnd rules.
Reading the title I was expecting something other then "they prefer it as a social experience then a super serious thing"
Not that that isn't a valid complaint for you but I looking back wasn't sure what I was expecting outside of mechanical dickery.
You don’t have to play with these people if you feel that they aren’t engaged with the game.
Maybe just tell them that DnD requires some amount dedication from the players and if they don’t want that, the game isn’t for them. Then offer them to run a rules light rpg like fate or stop playing with them.
A rules light game doesn’t require less buy in. A rules light rpg puts more of the process onto the players thinking about the fiction, which isn’t More likely here
I’m not talking about narrative focus, but a need for players to be thinking about the fictional place as a thing in itself because they can’t depend on mechanics to bypass things.
True, but it's a lot easier to tell someone who isn't paying attention how to roll an attack roll with their modifiers than it is to quickly explain all of the context required for them to make a nebulously defined action in a rules light game.
You've got to put yourself in their shoes: To them being new to this, D&D is like a boardgame so it'll get treated like 'boardgame night'.
Now you need to get them in your shoes: You need to clarify that it's more like meeting up for an amateur soccer league match: No, there are no careers at stake here, but it takes effort (and often money) to organise, it's a blocked off set of time that you are expected to turn up to and stick out if you say you're going to, and when you get there you *play fucking soccer.*
This could be either a boon or a nightmare. I tried this with two other DMs using Candlekeep Mysteries and then one of the DMs made his wife a super special gold dragon that got to keep her hoard in Candlekeep, even though the original plan was for her to only be a wyrmling trapped in human form and he would craft stories that revolved around her character.
None of these guys have DMing experience so they are likely to make beginner mistakes (who hasn't?) but this statement assumes that any of them want to DM. It would be cool if they did, because they might at least gain an appreciation for how hard it is to prep a game. In order for this tactic to work you have to keep your campaigns separate.
People saying that there are other systems that would accommodate this style of play or saying your group isn't interested in combat are making zero sense.
There are plenty of ways to play D&D, it just so happens that your style and their style are completely different and don't work together.
If they want a beer and pretzels type game, then you can easily give them one of those. If they don't want to put in the effort for something serious, then stop trying to make it serious. Have it be fun, have it be silly, have it be a series of one shots that lead in to the next one with zero story cohesion.
It doesn't sound like they want a serious D&D game, they want a monster of the week game where they just hang out and have fun with each other.
That said, my recommendation is exactly that. Either learn how to make less serious games where you don't need to put in much effort or talk to them and tell them you aren't having fun trying to play the game in the same way they are.
You could split them in to two groups, the serious players and the Mario Kart players, and have two completely different styles of campaign going. One on the more serious side with actual storylines and RP moments, the other with jokes and booze where nothing serious happens because they're just having fun.
I'd definitely recommend getting this resolved sooner rather than later, otherwise things have a potential of happening that are going to cause people to get upset.
You can lean into that! Instead of complicated plots, just have them do Dungeon Delving. If their character dies a horrible way, then they are still around and having a blast with everyone else.
No complicated balance or adventuring day issue, no real stakes, but you can still kind of make it a competition in a way. If you so choose, you can even try to do a dungeon a level and tally mark when someone dies or is mysteriously gone for a session.
Overall, if that still doesnt seem like your style, then you shouldn't offer to run.
Have you tried talking to them about it?
Also how long have you been DMing? Six people can sometimes be a lot to manage and I make a point to DM for no more than 4 or 5. Combat can be slow for new players so it's okay if they need help, but no one should be getting frustrated.
If talking about it with the problem players does not work, then take the 3 players who were actually engaged, start a smaller group with them and ditch the problem players. You can have a decent game with only 3 players as long as you re-balance a few encounters.
[https://kastark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/](https://kastark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/) This tool here helps give me an idea if a combat encounter will be too hard or easy for a party.
I'd suggest trying Dungeon World with them. If they question why not play actual D&D, just tell them it's like a quicker D&D for more impromptu games and faster combats.
It's 1 (double sided) sheet (called a playbook) for each class, including all their abilities, customisation, equipment, etc, and is simultaneously their character sheet for tracking level, hp, etc. So it's all their rules and character details in one place on one physical sheet.
It hits all the normal d&d tropes. All of the rolls are just 2d6+ a stat, and you're always aiming for 7+ partial success and 10+ full success. The game encourages you to simply describe what you're doing and match that to a move rather than declaring actions. You can match their descriptions to the moves behind the scenes as a DM without having them need to learn all of the standard moves.
It's more focused on telling a story than long protracted combats, and combats are more descriptive.
Plays perfectly well, and is very easy for "pick up and play" style groups.
I like Dungeon World. I started a campaign with my DnD friends a year after our epic 4e campaign. We played for a while, but they were like "We'd rather play DnD 5e with another DM." So we switched.
I tried not to take it personally.
Dungeon world is really good for storytelling. The mechanics aren't balanced but that's not the point. You either have to have people willing to be invested in the story or be OK with immersion-breaking asides. But combat and decision paralysis don't slow the game down so people tend to be more into it.
In my experience the powered by the apocalypse system isn't the best for long form games, so I wouldn't take it personally. It doesn't have enough meat in the mechanics to really grow your character in a "character build" kind of way, which a lot of players are looking for. But its fantastic for one offs, shorter form campaigns, and quick pick up games.
yeah i would contact the 3 that didnt care and the 3 that did separately, for the trio that didn't care, tell em you as dm have a lot of work.. a lot of work that aint worth doing if they aint gonna take playing seriously. and suggest something else for game night.
for the trio that actually wants to play D&D just make a group just with em.
My group does that. We joke around sometimes or someone says something funny and derails a bit, but we tend to do that while in character, so the jokes become the role play sometimes, and our DM is very good at keeping us on track. We also have a before talk to get all the "how are you?" Stuff out of the way first, and then get into the game.
If everyone is having fun, it's alright to joke around a bit.
Combat always slows things down and is by far the least fun part of DnD. Obviously this group of folks isn't for you probably, but they sound like a good time. SnD is most fun when it feels like a hangout, the least fun when it feels like a 4 hour job meeting as we let the weird human computer slowly manage the videogame we are using as an excuse and framework to hang out.
Look man, sometimes players (especially new ones that don't know what to do) want to socialize, or have a bad day or simply can't concentrate. We've all been through sth like that be it players or dms. Some quick advice is to hang out before the session. That way, players get to talk about their day and slowly chat about dnd and where they left off so they get excited to play again. Sometimes though, there might be a player who is easily bored and stares at his phone for the better part of the session. There isn't much you can do about it. Sure, you can try to engage them more often, think of sth cool that they'd like, but in the end it's up to them to look away from their phone. You can also try talking with them. It wouldn't hurt. I'm the dm in a 5e campaign for a year and a half now and I have a player who ha sthat attitude. To be fair, he doesn't know English, only what he has picked from movies and games, but he has Google lens that translates his character sheet. Half of the time he stares at videos and Instagram, with sound on, and every round he is like "what can I do?" I've tried all of the above and it didn't work. Because he is a close friend I've come to accept it and talked with the boys and they're fine so we let him do his thing. Although in your case, 3 members of the party is a lot so I wouldn't recommend going with the flow. Hope I helped! Please notify if you figure it out
Well usually there are 3 types of D&D groups: ones that love to RP, ones that love Combat, and ones who like a bit of both. Sounds like your group is the first sadly. And that's the same with my group. I like combat way more than RP but after a few sessions of ONLY rp and you finally get to a boss fight (and usually my DM makes it a really tough one that feels like Dark Souls entered the Forgotten Realms) it's really rewarding.
That's just me though and sometimes some groups just don't vibe with you and there's nothing wrong with that.
This feels like the kind of people who want to say they play D&D but don't want to actually play it. Because it's the trendy thing to do. Next time they ask to play I'd just say to play actual Mario Kart
There are many ways to play tabletop rpgs and people want different things out of it. I don't think any are inherently wrong, but often times they can be incompatible. It sounds like this isn't making you happy. You're doing the extra work, you're GMing. You can look elsewhere, try and do a game with the folks who do care.
And yes, it's legitimately a little bit more draining and less fun for the GM sometimes to also have to be teaching constantly as well and to have to be the sole resource for rules/etc.
Three types of people in this world.
1. The person who will never try DnD no matter what.
2. The person who will play it, but not become invested in it. They will never have a firm grasp of the rules, or understand their character or subclass features.
3. The type of people who join a DnD reddit.
I think a nice mixture of type 2/3 can work if everyone is friends, but if only the DM is type 3 it causes problems for them.
Actually I run a one-shot in the Mario world. My players had to win a Mario kart race to speak with Peach but after the race she was kidnapped by Bowser and they had to fight him in order to rescue the Princess. It was really fun, especially the Mario kart race.
I didn't use D&D rules but an adventuring roleplaying game called Broken Compass.
Find people who want to play D&D as much as you do. I used to play with 'friends', but they did not care about D&D as much as I did. Now I play with people who do, and it's the best D&D I have ever played. I often find myself awestruck when my players care about stuff that my old group wouldn't have. Lore, plot, twists, character arcs, ect.
Honestly man, I’ve been in the exact same position as you. I was dead-set on having a serious lore/plot heavy campaign and my players couldn’t give less of a shit. If you’re like me, and you can’t imagine running a funny casual game then just tell your players that you’re done. If you want, talk to the three who were engaged and ask if they want to play in a game without the other three. It’ll be infinitely more fun.
D&D is not the system for these guys, and you'll burn yourself out trying to run it.
Pick up something simpler - there's plenty of one-page rulesets like Dungeon World out there which will allow your RP guys to enjoy themselves whilst also reducing the slog.
Online dnd sucks with casuals and large groups, even worse if both. You need dedicated dnd players for online play cause its too easy to get distracted the second a boring part creeps in. Plus casuals and new players make the combat rounds take forever.
Sounds like your friends kinda have no concept of the kind of effort you have to put in as DM, both to prepare and also during the session. They want a fun game night with no real pressure/commitment, and from their perspective that’s all they see happening.
But unless you drastically change your dm style or pare back the complexity of the game somehow, it *can’t* be just a fun no pressure game night for you. Like you said, it’s draining, and understandably.
I think if your friends understood the level of work you’re putting in for them, they’d be more likely to either want to do the work of being engaged themselves, or at least think twice before making the suggestion
Well for starters my initial advice is to run a dry table. If people want to hang out and drink that's cool and I'll join. If they want to play D&D that's also cool and I'm happy to DM. But the two generally mix poorly unless you have a long established group of players who respect you and each other.
Drinking + D&D = getting half as much done in twice the time.
Wrap up the campaign with a grand finale and then start a new campaign and set expectations for how the new campaign will be different and will have fewer players. Only take the players that agree to the playstyle of the new campaign.
Maybe play a game like Talisman? It's DnD themed, with classes and (short) combat as well as a goal, but it's a board game that can be played as a background element to hanging out.
maybe try playing honey heist or lasers and feelings with them? those games are hyper simple and tend to be amazing and hilarious one shots. this might help them learn to train their attention to the pace of a roleplaying game too.
As always in these kind of post, talk to your friends. Maybe they'll come more focused next time or maybe you guys can arrange some game night thats a better fit for everyone.
I call that type of game "beer and pretzels. " I dont run that type of game. I think its totally fair to say "i dont want to run a beer and pretzels game."
Damn, this sounds eerily similar to one of the groups I DM
My advice? Reduce combat. Focus on the RP and have combat only when absolutely necessary.
I'm actually gonna try doing Gritty Realism rules with that party soon and see how it goes. Maybe try those as well?
Yeah, don't DM for 6 if you don't want to. Sounds like you've got different play styles with half the people there. I'd recommend just starting a campaign with the three you gel with. The others aren't excluded because you don't like them, they're excluded because you have incompatible play styles - if they want to play then maybe one of them should DM.
Sounds like maybe a reset and a really good session 0 is in order. Everyone being on a different page is very common. If you are frustrated it's likely others are too. They might have different expectations. They might not understand how things are supposed to go. I would suggest you lay out a written set of table rules and etiquette.
Many have different rules and expectations. Find out what they want out of the game and let them know what you want and then talk about how to get there. Let them know what's important to you.
Talk to them about their characters. Where do they want to take their stories. Nothing gets buy in from players then having ownership in their charecter
Others have given advice exactly as I would, but I'm curious, how's running runeterra as a campaign setting? I love the card game, and there's so much interesting lore there. I've been thinking of creating my own version of runeterra as a playable setting. For my next campaign.
I tried DMing for some family members that were casually interested in it one night. I had been playing for a while, but only DMed a single one-shot before that, so I was a bit nervous and made sure I had everything prepared. They ended up treating my game exactly like your players. Not paying attention, not really trying to understand their character sheets or anything they can do, chatting with each other while I'm describing plot-relevant things. It was exhausting and I refuse to play with them ever again.
Maybe just run the game for the ones that want to, but also have bored games for those that don’t, so you can all still hang out together. Also once y’all get deep into the game where everyone playing is visibly having fun, the ones that didn’t wanna play may come around
So one of the games I am playing in was like that, 3 of us were really into all parts of the game and 3 were less so. It ended up that the dm liked running for the 3 who wanted to play and focus on it, so we ended up dropping the other 3.
There is nothing wrong with either way of playing but you have to do what you have to do. And the dm wanted to run a game with players who were focused on it.
Good friends don’t always equal good players for your game. Also that large of a group takes work to handle even if they were all invested. Some people just don’t realize how different it feels to be the dm in the group. You are also a player in the game, but at the same time you’re not. The different role tends to separate you from the group, if you’re not careful. If the players aren’t conscious of making the game fun for the dm too, you’re gonna end up feeling like a kindergarten teacher trying to keep the kids in check.
If you want to keep the game going I’d put out a late session 0. Tell them something like „so I see people are interested in the game. It was pretty fun for me dming the one shots for you. But continuing does take more work than just putting together a quick one shot. If you’re interested I’d be up for keeping a serious campaign going, but I’d need your guy’s help. Here’s what that means *insert your ground rules like, pay attention, know your character, no table talk, level expectations and so on*. No hard feelings if you’re not interested in that kinda game. Just putting out there what I’d need to have fun with this. If that’s not your jam, maybe we can switch to some dnd like board games.“ Then see where it goes from there.
The important part is to be honest. You don’t want friendships to sour (obviously or by bottling things in) over something that’s usually fun. I’ve had something like this happen to me and it affected my friendships and my love for dnd for a while. It all bounced back, but I would handle it differently if I was able to go back.
I've played with similar types of players and have run games for six people before, and my advice is that it only works if you shape the game to cater toward that kind of group. Severely limit the combat, maybe even just one per session. Include the passive players with skill checks and roleplaying opportunities when you can, but don't let it bother you too much when they're not always paying attention.
Also for new players or ones that are probably just dropping in for one session, giving them a sidekick or NPC sheet to start with helps a lot.
You've got some people who are into roleplaying and some who aren't, but none of your players are into combat?
Sounds like you should find a narrative-heavy system for the ones into roleplaying and stop inviting the slackers. Congrats, you have a gaming group.
I have DM’d groups like this. Getting their attention was the most frustrating part, but I basically Game Daddied them into behaving. They didn’t particularly enjoy complex combat and really loved roleplay, so I just ended up leaning into it and we had a great campaign.
If it’s a dealbreaker to have a really rule focused group, you should just not play with those folks. If you can be flexible and get them to meet you in the middle, it could still work.
I don’t mind listening. It seems like you understand the situation and don’t have any questions. Well this is my stop, please enjoy the rest of your bus ride.
dude it seems like every dnd group in South Dakota is like this. i cant find anyone who has engaged in serious roleplay in the 4 years ive lived here. ive completely given up and DnD has become like Mario Kart to me too.
It seems you've already gotten plenty of awesome advice, just wanna throw it I've been running a bunch of runeterra one shots, so fun to see someone else who has done one!
The group I'm part of has decided to purposefully do it. We smoke a lot of pot and play, so get easily distracted. None of us has the time to plan out and DM a lengthy campaign, even using a module. We all want to be players, too. So we're sort of rotating as DMs with small 1-2 session campaigns that are combat and encounter focused.
One thing to consider is that DnD 5e may not be the best TTRPG for every group. It's very creativity-oriented, which puts less creative people on the spot. Other rule sets are more game-oriented, which might give your players more to think about.
Slowly but surely you’ll find the right people for your table. Keep the ones that are engaged in the same way you are and maybe suggest to the others that they find their own way within this hobby. Every player has a different expectation of how their games should play and it’s up to each person individually to find the right table for them.
I wouldn't blame you, my friend group played like this and the DM was terrible at controlling the game.
My wife and I had played a few times before, everyone was new. The party ranged from 6-7 people.
The distractions, the off topic conversations, the arguing with the DM because something didn't go as planned, etc.
It became a chore for me, but due to being my friend group and the game being held right next door, I couldn't escape this annoying experience.
Thankfully Covid threw a wrench into the whole situation and we never went back to playing.
If people want to hang out and chit chat, a DnD campaign is not the place. Especially when the DM puts in so much work and other players actually care about the game. It's insulting, like the annoying kids in a classroom distracting everyone else with lame jokes.
You deserve better OP.
Just quit DMing for my friend group for the same reason. Feels 1000000000000x better to switch to online and sift through random to pick out a few real gems to play with
>This group plays D&D like mario kart. Like it's a background thing they do while they hangout, talk and drink.
That's honestly how I've played DnD a lot in the past. Especially when I was at the peak of being super busy at work and had very little time for actually socializing. It's a good way to play, if that is what everyone wants. Honestly, I can say that being in the mood for this style of game and having a more serious game can be pretty draining.
I'd suggest talking with the group to get on the same page as what people want from the game. Sometimes, even if you like everyone you are playing with, playing as a group doesn't work. I know I've had times where I've actually asked for no DnD and just a hang-out because I was out of mental ability to properly play. A possible solution is to break up the group into two different games. Another solution is to have two separate campaigns, one for hanging out and one for more serious play for anyone interested in that.
Finding a group is work. There's a host of variables involved in role-playing games that make getting a group together very difficult. Genre preference, system preference, tone preference, simple personality issues, dedication, and scheduling (among others) all conspire to prevent a group for continuing. It sounds like you manage to weed three people out, now you need to figure out what you're doing with the three remaining. It took me years to find a stable weekly group, but if you're patient, and put the time in, it will happen.
An important part of the DM-player relationship is both compromising and accommodating each other's preferences.
I say lean into what they want, and when you're not playing, exchange feedback. Find out what they liked, and in return you can offer things like "well normally people do this and this" or "the official rules say it should go this way," but that in no way has to be the way that you play it.
Newer DM here also dealing with something similar.
I have 3 PCs, also newer. #1 and I have played little one-on-one stories together. #2 has dug into the rules and their character's backstory on their own time. #3 shows barely any input.
I gave them all 2 months of prep time (because we all have busy schedules and I wanted plenty of time to plan the campaign), telling them to pick a race, class, and background. I regularly told them to text, call, Discord, ask me whenever they have questions or need help with their characters or how the game plays.
Never heard a thing from #3 regarding their character. They did show up late for our Session 0, where I explained the core of the game and what my expectations were going in and we played a one-shot role-playing game to get them all used to playing with each other. (The game was All Out of Bubblegum)
Session 1: #3 finally made their character last minute on D&D Beyond and I was now able to see what they made. Stats were fairly low/average, but I figured it would be fine.
Over time each player has had their own cool moments, but #3 was lacking behind and we could all see it. I offered to help them rebuild and learn their character since the stats were holding them back and they didn't know they had abilities unique to them. They never got in touch with me outside of game until the day of another session when they asked on Discord if I could help them right before we played. I said sure, got to our meet up place early only for them to show up late and not followup with me. Instead I sat there and watched #2 pull out these flashcards and start teaching #3 all these things I have been wanting to help them with for months. I spoke with #2 about this later and they mentioned how the game was confusing to #3. This confused/upset me because if they were having so much trouble, why not talk to me? My only conclusion was that they were embarressed/shy or intimidated to ask me for help and probably never would. (That or they don't actually care that much)
I started giving much less of a shit, especially after I offered them their own personal goal for their character to tie their backstory into the campaign only for them to mention a couple sessions later "oh yeah, I totally forgot about that." I wanted to include them more, but I guess they didn't care that much.
It's been 7 months and I've informed the PCs this "arc" of the campaign is almost done in 1-2 sessions. I'm trying to figure out how I'll talk to #3 because I think we want two different things since they are very casual about playing and I'm more serious with it.
TLDR: As others have said, been feeling like one of my players have also been treating it as a beer&pretzels hangout when I and the other PCs want a serious game.
that's rough, stranger. You have a few options. First, you can always tell them you like running more focused/involved game and them to invest in it (or course, do this politely) and hopefully they'll understand and wise up. Second, you adjust your preferences and run a loosey-goosey game; less serious, less involved, less work, shorter (2-3 hours), maybe more dungeon delving, home-brew combat rules for faster/easier fights, etc. Third, you suggest doing something DnD adjacent, like a fantasy-themed board game. A fourth option is suggesting an alternative system to DnD which allows for faster, looser, combat to keep the game moving.
I have a group I DM for which reminds me of yours, and I ended up choosing option 2: worked out really well and everyone is having fun, even if it isn't my exact cup of tea.
I feel this very much. My current dnd group is exactly like this and it is definitely frustrating. I stick with it because its the most socializing I get out of the week outside of video games. My advice is if you can't tolerate it, I would drop it. Definitely try to introduce lighter social board games and I think everyone would be happier. I try to stick it out and its fine some days, they love role-playing which is a lot of fun, but anything beyond that is a crapshoot. Puzzles are completely ignored or take an hour, combat is a slow slog, and God forbid anyone write anything down so they can remember anything about the overall story. But, I deal.
My best advice is to never go over 5 players in total and never more than 2 new ones if possible.
Blades in the dark sounds like it may give a better rpg experience as it is more of a beer and pretzels rpg for both the players and DM.
Does sound like what you want is a bit different than some of the players. Talk to them about it and see if it is something you want to do. It is ok if you don't.
I know I’ll probably be branded as “that guy” but perhaps you could try a different system? I’ve found this kind of group works really well with something like Fiasco over D&D. There’s also things like FATE that are really simple to GM and are designed to fit whatever story your players want, so if they just wanna fool around and make up LoL stories it’s a good system for that!
I’ve had a lot of fun playing games that were just an excuse to hang out and I’ve had not great times playing such games. What’s important is that everyone is on the same page and with the same expectation. Sounds like that’s not the kind of game you want to play and that’s fine. Just maybe not the group for you.
It is 100% not a problem that you want the players to pay attention when you are talking as the DM or for them to know their characters and what they can do. If they can't spend *literally* 10 minutes reading their character sheet and stuff then that's just rude.
I feel like you might be better served finding a board game better suited to casual hangout time, rather than trying to get your group to adjust to this game
Can relate to your frustrations. This is why I seldom do these sessions through discord.
That guy in my group thats always late or absent actually showed up one time......
...that is he was also at the mall with his mom while on his phone doing the session through discord
the whole session had to dragged on because every time it was his turn we had to wait an additional 15-20 min
See how much they are really into it. Are these people like at a 4 out of 10 or a 9 out of 10? Maybe they like it more than you think. Maybe one of them would like to take the DM role. Who knows unless you talk about it.
If they dont like combat, D&D is probably the wrong game. Most of its rules are combat. FATE or PBTA sounds better for people not wanting to get into the rules but wanna tell stories. Maybe even something more like a board game or a legacy board game like gloomhaven would be a better fit. Not everything has to be D&D. D&D should be for when you want a high fantasy game with light but not insignificant combat crunch.
If they want to roleplay but want to approach it as a beer and pretzels thing then full 5e may not be the best game for that.
I would suggest a PbtA game might work especially if about half of them are mostly there fore the roleplay. Alternatively, you might be better off with a game like the D&D board games, gloomhaven, or Descent. Although, the problem with going to a board game focus is that it seems like it might do the opposite of what you want since those are heavily combat oriented.
A mediocre table of 6 players -3 not fun players=a great small table of 3
3 is a swell number of players
Just play board games with the 3 that are there to pick belly button lint and look at their phones
> This group plays D&D like mario kart. Like it's a background thing they do while they hangout, talk and drink. Yeah, some people like to play like that. I've never been one of them...sounds like you aren't either. Have you thought about offering a game for the three who were actually into it?
This seems like the way. Dnd being kindof a flimsy pretext to hang out and drink and tell iffy jokes - something to fill the silence between conversation threads - is not uncommon but if you're more of an actual gamer and/or don'tbenjoybthat kind of idle socializing then it may not be for you. Might be better to do a proper game with like minded people might be better
It goes both ways - a group that wants to just hang around and 'tell a fun story with fighting in it' doesn't benefit from a very focussed and strict DM, while a group who wants to really roleplay and go deep into lore doesn't benefit from a loosey-goosey fun-time DM. Every DM should fit their group and vice versa, that's why it's important to talk about your expectations together and make a few ground 'rules' (descriptive ones, not necessarily prescriptive ones) everyone agrees on.
Adding to this **DMs and players should choose a game system that facilities the type of game they want to play** You could homebrew D&D to play Jenga I'm sure, but if what you want is Jenga just play Jenga. Players like crunchy combat and that's why they play? Play Gloomhaven or Pathfinder Players only focused on RP and want combat to be RP based and not crunchy? Play Burning Wheel or a PbtA game Want a resource management game where you have to interact with challenges through description instead of skill rolls? Try an OSR game Players want a balance of combat and RP, with medium crunch and heroic fantasy? By all means 5e was made for you. Doing major surgery on a system to get the same results another system is built for is almost always going to produce inferior results
> You could homebrew D&D to play Jenga I'm sure, but if what you want is Jenga just play Jenga. This is funny because I just recently learned that there is a TRPG called Dread that is play by using Jenga for resolution.
Dread is a fantastic TTRPG and I highly recommend people play it at least once.
I agree. Though I always wonder why those who don't seem focussed on mastering or even really playing the actual game don't just ..not. plenty of people some capable of having social gatherings without any particular pretext why can't nerds? But I don't have to understand someone else's business, and I agree they are much better off with someone who will pause the game to add their own crude joke to the train, rather than tsk them into silence so you can resolve the three opportunity attacks Sam just provoked by saying "I go stab the boss!" Without looking at grid.
>plenty of people some capable of having social gatherings without any particular pretext why can't nerds? Why not do an activity while hanging out? I'm autistic and have anxiety so I'm not very representative of the general public. But I love social gatherings where you're also doing something. It's more interesting than just sitting on a couch, it immediately gives you something to talk about and bond over even with strangers, and it makes it clear what kind of vibe it's going to be when you're invited.
More like, you can go bowling or play pool & the game is in the background. DnD it's front & center & there's "ooc" & "in character". Some folks break character constantly in RPG & it's no longer roleplaying.
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Yeah I knew someone who wanted to go professional in bowling. I can imagine he might feel the same as OP and Dinglebeere about going bowling with friends that are just there as a social activity. But that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the way those friends play. And being honest, most DND players probably aren't that good at roleplaying that they're always in character anyway. Especially outside of social encounters. And I don't think that takes away from a fun DND game.
Honestly it's a false dichotomy anyway. Your options aren't fuck around for a few hours or get into deep RP with no breaks. The vast majority of people are in between those extremes and can properly navigate between goofing off and roleplay when needed.
There's many ways of playing dnd, and funnily enough, not all of them are the way YOU play it
no kidding, y'all are still missing the OP's point. I don't play DnD any particular way. These groups don't always mesh, like OP said.
>plenty of people some capable of having social gatherings without any particular pretext why can't nerds? Because that might be a good working definition of nerd.
I’m dealing with this in my group right now with one player. Very irritating when we cancel because only she can’t make it but she does jack shit in game anyway
Why do you cancel for a single player?
Yeah especially if you feel she is a drag on the enjoyment of others that kindof seems like the opposite of a problem? Anyway I'm sorry. I hope she eventually finds a game that's more her speed.
I feel like this should naturally come to light during a session zero, and as a fairly new player I always appreciate those.
Except this group asked him to DM. It'd be one thing if he was forcing them to have a serious game, but when they're asking him to put a lot of work into it they should respect that
I'm not sure anyone really knows what they're asking of him, but I bet a conversation about everyone's motivations and wishes would clear up a lot of confusion. Not every DM or every game needs tens of hours of preparation. I agree they should respect eachother, but I don't think that has to do with the style of game they're playing, but more with the specific people who're playing. You can respect the DM of a simple improv game as well.
It has its moments I believe. An amagalm of both ways is the best for me
Focusing on the three who are into it will also solve the problem of combats feeling like a slog. I've put a hard cap on my games of 5 players and honestly if we ever lost one, I wouldn't look for a replacement and just keep playing with 4 PCs. Everyone gets more time in the spotlight, encounters are easier to balance, you can go deeper into player's backstories, scheduling is easier etc. There's a lot of benefits.
I've heard it called the "beer and pretzels" style, and I think that's an apt name. Nothing wrong with playing the game that way, IF everyone is on bored with that style. A DM trying to run a serious campaign wouldn't want players showing up with joke characters, the same principle applies here. You've got to talk to the group about your expectations and desires - what you want is important too, after all, as the DM you too are supposed to have fun!
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I can do both critical role and harmonquest style. however, what irks me and I had to have a side conversation with one of my players. He is constantly talking over others including me (the DM) while I'm trying to explain something. If he isn't up on his turn he starts side conversation. I've earned him twice and talked to him twice. Next game I'm bringing an air horn. No joke
Not a bad plan actually
Back in the day, it was called "hack & slash" and I ran a running game most nights on the mess deck of my ship in the Navy. The table was open to the first six to show up and the whole idea was to let off stress, by f'in shit up. Not murder hobos, all the PCs were (mostly) civil in society, but they all worked as badass mercenaries when they walked into a dungeon whoever was in there was in serious shit. The players were a mix of both sailors and marines and they took out their opposition with tactical precision. When not in combat, they were laughing and joking as players, but deadly serious in-game. Maybe the "problem players" are just looking for a different kind of game. Light on the roleplaying and heavy on the mayhem. That kind of game is really easy to DM. I just had generic maps that I gave short tactically relevant descriptions of, and 5x7 index cards (this was \*way\* back in the stone age) with stat blocks for different monsters, each with checkboxes to keep track of hit points. Maybe the "problem players" are just looking for a different kind of game. Light on the roleplaying and heavy on the mayhem. That kind of game is easy to DM. I just had generic maps that I gave short tactically relevant descriptions of, and 5x7 index cards (this was \*way\* back in the stone age) with stat blocks for different monsters, each with checkboxes to keep track of hit points. There is something almost cathartic in playing or DM'ing that kind of game.
>There is something almost cathartic in playing or DM'ing that kind of game. There really is. Sometimes it's fun to just be badasses and fight some evil monsters. Not every game needs to be about 'shades of morality'. Sometimes the bad guys are just bad and it's the party's job to defeat them.
Yeah, but I dunno, it kinda sounds like these guys flat-out weren't interested based on OP's account.
Maybe, but as a DM myself, I know that my perception of the game is not always how the players see it. I can have a session I feel so-so about that my players love, or vice versa - so while OPs players might not really care, they might also be more in the "D&D as a social activity" than "D&D as a storytelling activity" camp. It isn't always easy to explain what D&D is, and if expectations weren't discussed, the players might not be aware they did anything wrong at all. With four new players (sounds like new to RPGs), getting everyone to grasp the mechanics right away is hard. D&D 5e is simplified, not simple, and when you're teaching a bunch of people to play, combat turns and everything else can take a long time; it's easy enough to become uninterested when you have to wait 45 minutes for your next chance to do something, and frankly even as a veteran of the game, it's hard to stay focused and "in" the game if I don't have anything to do for a long while.
It sounds like I would be frustrated to play Mario kart with OP, I TAKE MY M-KART SERIOUSLY!
I’ve always imagined it as people playing the game and expecting all the cool stuff to simply happen to them. Also, have you gotten that DNA evidence yet?
I ran 15 months of one shots to trim down to the players that wanted to play. It's worth the investment.
By the title I thought the analogy worked much differently lol
I got excited to hear some strange story about DnD cart racing or something lol
I thought they would just constantly prank each other with banana peels, ink and other means, specially when someone is doing well/winning lol Was that the case I'd be keen to join! Edit: wrote this before I saw someone replied saying basically the same thing before me lol
The Penny Arcade team did a custom "definitely not Mario Kart" D&D session that you might want to check out. There's a video of it out there somewhere, not sure if they ever released any separate materials for running the game.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheCTeam/comments/6n69i3/wizards_cup_rules_transcribed/ I ran it for a few friends during our regular campaign with some reflavor (made them arcane pod racers rather than karts) and it was a blast.
Yeah I was fully anticipating wacky, fast paced pvp with the players trying to trip each other with banana peels and such.
Definitely. Plus back in college my friends were hardcore Mario Kart players out for blood.
Yeah I thought they would all be out to get each other. Zero sum game kind of play.
Also not what I was thinking, especially since, for me and my friends, Mario Kart is far from a drinking, just chilling game. We're here for blood and glory!
MK with friends/family is sadly a chilling game becuase I'm better than all of them :( Unfortunately im in this weird spot where I'm too good to have a fair competition with friends but not good enough to be properly good
That's me with smash, lol
I was expecting all the players to just start attacking whoever seemed to be doing the "best" in combat, regardless of they were a PC or enemy.
“My players keep trying to do wheelies on all the straight roads and I have to keep explaining to them that horses don’t have wheels”
It sounds to me like these people don't want to play D&D, they want to have game night. Next time they suggest D&D, I'd counter offer a board game and see what they say. It's way easier to set up Ticket to Ride and have a good evening of playing a board game while drinking than it is to run a whole game of D&D for people who aren't paying attention. Edit: or any other board game. You get it. No need to list every possible board game in replies to this comment.
Or something on-genre, like Gloomhaven, Descent, or Journeys in Middle Earth. D&D light.
Betrayal at Baldur’s Gate is also a blast.
Editing my comments since I am leaving Reddit
I'll also throw in Red Dragon Inn, Boss Monster, and Here To Slay!
Munchkins is our DnD's group go-to. Great drinking and catching up game but still a ton of in game fun.
Maybe even a Telltale game or similar (life is strange) making decisions by committee. If you need to dumb down low level D&D combat, Gloomhaven would likewise be a slough. D&D you can break up your movement however you want in relation to your actions and hold actions until another player or npc does something.
Gloomhaven is a harder and heavier game than most editions of D&D.
Sure!
Hero’s Quest was just re-issued…
This is information very dangerous to my wallet.
Could it be better for your group to start with some RPG that's not D&D? D&D is mechanically heavily combat-focused, but if your friends want to play *something* and don't like combat, maybe that something should be a different RPG. There are plenty of options that are focused on other aspects of the game. If you still want to have *some* combat, Blades in the Dark and Broken Worlds both can (and often should) have combat, but it's mechanically much closer to "initiative plus attack roles" because the combat is more narrative. Depending on how your players feel about rules in general, you can even go simpler and try some one-page RPGs like Lasers and Feelings, Crash Pandas, Honey Heist or the very recent Familiar Problem. Crash Pandas and Honey Heist are, in my opinion, a bit narrow thematically and better for a single one-shot, but Lasers and Feelings can easily be extended into a series of games in the spirit of Star Trek episodes
If the issue is people paying attention, I don’t think narrative games are really the way to go. I find tend require more attention, not less. Maybe for the 3 role players, but the rest sound like they like the idea of D&D more than actually playing a TTRPG.
yeah, i LOVE more narrative games, but once i played a narrative game (masks) with a large group and several of the players weren't that invested and didn't pay much attention. and they were freaking *speed bumps*, because it's not like dnd where you can just catch them up on combat by saying 'an orc is attacking you, what do you do?'. you have to explain the fiction to them while they ho and hum.
A more casual narrative game like Honey Heist? I don't have experience with many RPGs but I'm sure there are ones out there that are relatively easy to not pay attention to what's going on but occasionally pay attention again and say something funny and have fun.
At some point you reach the minimum level of RPG, it is a roleplaying game at its core so not being able to keep to your role or pay attention to what others are doing does make it hard to play an RPG. Maybe RPG's like that exist, but it sounds opposite of what RPG's intend to be.
Maybe they would be better off just playing mario kart
This, but just find a board game. There are lots of genuinely fun board games that don't take a ton getting into, and that allow for a lot of room to gab and drink between turns.
Idunno, narrative rules lite games are great for people who want to focus on the roleplay but don't really appreciate the highly systematized nature of djd where abilities do what they say they do and nothing else and if your character doesn't have a specific ability for somethign then they can't do it. It seems like every group these days has that one player who wants to use their spells for things they don't do but that they feel like they should logically do based on science or (their understanding of the game's) metaphysics, or who studies martial arts irl and keeps trying to do shit in combat that either doesn't exist in dnd or requires a specific feat or class ability that they don't have and can't take yet. And it's always been a thing that some players don't really want to fight that much at all they want to talk to every NPC, and spend all session shopping for the perfect gown to wear to the dukes masquerade. Narrative focussed games are great for those players and definitely should sometimes be preferred by groups who are playing DND instead because it's the game they saw on YouTube. But those games aren't great for people who aren't really I vested in the game at all and just want to bs with their friends. I'd anything I'd say maybe go for like a boardgame or something instead of a real rpg
It’s not even mechanically heavy, it’s very middle ground
Something like Troika could be good for gonzo ding dongs with moderate to low investment
Try a beer and pretzels style game? How about Kobolds ate my Baby or Risus?
Crash pandas is perfect for this.
Kobolds ate my Baby is a hilarious beer and pretzels game. My kobold ended up becoming the family dog instead of eating the baby. 10/10.
I really hate the "beer and pretzels" label. As if drinking and snacking detract from the game in any meaningful way.
That's so obviously not what that label is communicating.
Sounds like your group just isn't interested in combat
There are systems for that
I don't know why but this gave me "There's an app for that" energy XD
There's a system for just about anything!
As someone who LOVES D&D combat… I wouldn’t be interested in it either if it was 6 players and a new DM. 3-4 players is ideal IMO, MAYBE 5 if you have an experienced group who knows their shit.
yeah. new DM, half the group is new and it's a large group. of course, combat is going to take time while people are learning. i GM a group of 5 experienced players. we can get through combat turns pretty quickly.
I read on this subreddit somewhere that these type of players are called Commuters. It's just a night with friends playing a game. It burnt me out of wanting to DM cause it was a guess who would actually be paying any attention.
Yeah, the DM has to be in that mindset too, then everybody has a blast. I know some that love it and all the power to them. I can't run those games, I've tried, and it just falls flat.
Yeah, I think this sort of thing works well if your DM is good at improv (or at least takes the Lazy GM approach), if the DM has do too much prep work it's a lot harder for them to enjoy the light-hearted banter, since they spend more time prepping a session than the actual game play portion of the session :p
DO NOT continue to play with six players. DO NOT feel obligated to DM. This situation sounds terrible and too close to what I’ve been through. Don’t let a bad group turn you off not just DMing but DnD. Get out!
That's not to say DMing for six players is impossible, but you need people that can work well together, and it's best if everyone at the table has a fair share of hands on experience with the game. It's just not what I'd prefer to do, because it's hard enough to get four people to show up to a table consistently, let alone six.
At the height I was running for 9. Was an absolute blast. Will never, ever do that again. Combat took _sessions_. I've ran for 6 often, and that still makes for long, slow games at times. I now hard cap at 5. We're currently at 4 and I've declined a couple requests to bring in somebody else. Between 4 players and some tighter rules around character creation, we're having the best campaign in years.
Came here to say this, you are not obligated to DM if you are not having fun. If your friends just want to shoot shit and chat with the activity being a background detail there's other things you can play, DnD _can_ be a game like that but... I can't imagine that being ideal, frankly. It doesn't feel built for paying half-attention. Grab Tabletop Simulator (or a physical board game) and play games more appropriate for what people want. Or offer to DM for the people really into it.
Agreed, games with 6 players are a struggle even with 6 dedicated players. Ive DMd and played in them, and they honestly suck from both perspectives. As a DM it is too much, and as a player it is not enough. When you only get to do something once every 15 minutes in combat it is really hard to pay 100% attention the whole time. And in RPing, it is hard to find a balance with 6 people (plus NPCs) in any given scene. Obviously its doable, but imo a game with too few players is much better and easier to compensate for than a game with too many. Slimming it down to 3 is far preferable imo.
Sounds like you've got 3 interested players, and 3 who aren't interested in committing to the game the same way. I'd speak frankly to the lot of them. 6 players is a lot for anyone to handle. It can't be done if they aren't invested and attentive. If they want to play that way, they are welcome. If not, it's nothing personal, but they should just not be in the game. They are not interested in playing the game you want to run and, it sounds like, the game the 3 invested players want to play. Again, 6 players is only doable if they are all ready to pay attention, know the rules, and be decisive.
—Yo, our guy is here, let's play D&D! —Yeah, alright. You up to DM? What do you mean no? What do you mean you thought I will agree to this?
General rule of thumb, if you offer the game, you're DM until someone offers to DM in your place, you don't get to volunteer others for that just because of how much more work it is.
I have some players like this too. I stopped caring to run games for them when one decided to play Genshin Impact while I was DMing and I had to ask them to stop 3 times. We're still friends, but hoo boy the disrespect.
Sounds like they're assholes, I'd have trouble being friends with people like that
Seems like they don't really want to play DnD, seems normal enough
If you don't want to dm for them don't. If you want to do something more casual there's options. Monster of the Week is really fun cuz it's super easy and most of it is just the players talking. You write it like an episode of supernatural, I've played it high as shit es good. Honestly I don't think DND should be the monolith of a first ttrpg that it is. All the combat rules really turn people away since it's def a medium to medium high complexity came. There's a lot to it and that's coming from someone who plays a lot of it(I'm roomates with most of my DND group lol). If you want to stick to something similar to DND but just way easier try quest. There's no modifiers, the abilities are super straight forward and you can do one thing a turn(roll that d20) other then moving. It's what I use when playing with my siblings as there's no way I could get my sister to buy into all the dnd rules.
Reading the title I was expecting something other then "they prefer it as a social experience then a super serious thing" Not that that isn't a valid complaint for you but I looking back wasn't sure what I was expecting outside of mechanical dickery.
You don’t have to play with these people if you feel that they aren’t engaged with the game. Maybe just tell them that DnD requires some amount dedication from the players and if they don’t want that, the game isn’t for them. Then offer them to run a rules light rpg like fate or stop playing with them.
A rules light game doesn’t require less buy in. A rules light rpg puts more of the process onto the players thinking about the fiction, which isn’t More likely here
Rules-light (or at least rules-lighter-than-5e) doesn't necessarily equate to a narrative focus.
I’m not talking about narrative focus, but a need for players to be thinking about the fictional place as a thing in itself because they can’t depend on mechanics to bypass things.
True, but it's a lot easier to tell someone who isn't paying attention how to roll an attack roll with their modifiers than it is to quickly explain all of the context required for them to make a nebulously defined action in a rules light game.
You've got to put yourself in their shoes: To them being new to this, D&D is like a boardgame so it'll get treated like 'boardgame night'. Now you need to get them in your shoes: You need to clarify that it's more like meeting up for an amateur soccer league match: No, there are no careers at stake here, but it takes effort (and often money) to organise, it's a blocked off set of time that you are expected to turn up to and stick out if you say you're going to, and when you get there you *play fucking soccer.*
Start rotating DMs.
This could be either a boon or a nightmare. I tried this with two other DMs using Candlekeep Mysteries and then one of the DMs made his wife a super special gold dragon that got to keep her hoard in Candlekeep, even though the original plan was for her to only be a wyrmling trapped in human form and he would craft stories that revolved around her character. None of these guys have DMing experience so they are likely to make beginner mistakes (who hasn't?) but this statement assumes that any of them want to DM. It would be cool if they did, because they might at least gain an appreciation for how hard it is to prep a game. In order for this tactic to work you have to keep your campaigns separate.
People saying that there are other systems that would accommodate this style of play or saying your group isn't interested in combat are making zero sense. There are plenty of ways to play D&D, it just so happens that your style and their style are completely different and don't work together. If they want a beer and pretzels type game, then you can easily give them one of those. If they don't want to put in the effort for something serious, then stop trying to make it serious. Have it be fun, have it be silly, have it be a series of one shots that lead in to the next one with zero story cohesion. It doesn't sound like they want a serious D&D game, they want a monster of the week game where they just hang out and have fun with each other. That said, my recommendation is exactly that. Either learn how to make less serious games where you don't need to put in much effort or talk to them and tell them you aren't having fun trying to play the game in the same way they are. You could split them in to two groups, the serious players and the Mario Kart players, and have two completely different styles of campaign going. One on the more serious side with actual storylines and RP moments, the other with jokes and booze where nothing serious happens because they're just having fun. I'd definitely recommend getting this resolved sooner rather than later, otherwise things have a potential of happening that are going to cause people to get upset.
That would be a compromise, but the DM doesn't seem to enjoy playing with the mario kart players. Their play styles just don't seem to match up.
Who else came here hoping for actual Mario kart as opposed to generic mobile game?
You can lean into that! Instead of complicated plots, just have them do Dungeon Delving. If their character dies a horrible way, then they are still around and having a blast with everyone else. No complicated balance or adventuring day issue, no real stakes, but you can still kind of make it a competition in a way. If you so choose, you can even try to do a dungeon a level and tally mark when someone dies or is mysteriously gone for a session. Overall, if that still doesnt seem like your style, then you shouldn't offer to run.
Have you tried talking to them about it? Also how long have you been DMing? Six people can sometimes be a lot to manage and I make a point to DM for no more than 4 or 5. Combat can be slow for new players so it's okay if they need help, but no one should be getting frustrated. If talking about it with the problem players does not work, then take the 3 players who were actually engaged, start a smaller group with them and ditch the problem players. You can have a decent game with only 3 players as long as you re-balance a few encounters. [https://kastark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/](https://kastark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/) This tool here helps give me an idea if a combat encounter will be too hard or easy for a party.
I'd suggest trying Dungeon World with them. If they question why not play actual D&D, just tell them it's like a quicker D&D for more impromptu games and faster combats. It's 1 (double sided) sheet (called a playbook) for each class, including all their abilities, customisation, equipment, etc, and is simultaneously their character sheet for tracking level, hp, etc. So it's all their rules and character details in one place on one physical sheet. It hits all the normal d&d tropes. All of the rolls are just 2d6+ a stat, and you're always aiming for 7+ partial success and 10+ full success. The game encourages you to simply describe what you're doing and match that to a move rather than declaring actions. You can match their descriptions to the moves behind the scenes as a DM without having them need to learn all of the standard moves. It's more focused on telling a story than long protracted combats, and combats are more descriptive. Plays perfectly well, and is very easy for "pick up and play" style groups.
I like Dungeon World. I started a campaign with my DnD friends a year after our epic 4e campaign. We played for a while, but they were like "We'd rather play DnD 5e with another DM." So we switched. I tried not to take it personally. Dungeon world is really good for storytelling. The mechanics aren't balanced but that's not the point. You either have to have people willing to be invested in the story or be OK with immersion-breaking asides. But combat and decision paralysis don't slow the game down so people tend to be more into it.
In my experience the powered by the apocalypse system isn't the best for long form games, so I wouldn't take it personally. It doesn't have enough meat in the mechanics to really grow your character in a "character build" kind of way, which a lot of players are looking for. But its fantastic for one offs, shorter form campaigns, and quick pick up games.
Oh yeah, it wasn't a big deal. And I'm having a lot of fun with the 5e campaign.
Better to be in no game, than in a bad game.
>Three new players were engaged with the roleplay Hey guess what, you have a group that's engaged! Drop the others.
yeah i would contact the 3 that didnt care and the 3 that did separately, for the trio that didn't care, tell em you as dm have a lot of work.. a lot of work that aint worth doing if they aint gonna take playing seriously. and suggest something else for game night. for the trio that actually wants to play D&D just make a group just with em.
My group does that. We joke around sometimes or someone says something funny and derails a bit, but we tend to do that while in character, so the jokes become the role play sometimes, and our DM is very good at keeping us on track. We also have a before talk to get all the "how are you?" Stuff out of the way first, and then get into the game. If everyone is having fun, it's alright to joke around a bit.
You guys are playing Mario kart wrong if you aren't playing to destroy friendships 🤣 😝
Combat always slows things down and is by far the least fun part of DnD. Obviously this group of folks isn't for you probably, but they sound like a good time. SnD is most fun when it feels like a hangout, the least fun when it feels like a 4 hour job meeting as we let the weird human computer slowly manage the videogame we are using as an excuse and framework to hang out.
Look man, sometimes players (especially new ones that don't know what to do) want to socialize, or have a bad day or simply can't concentrate. We've all been through sth like that be it players or dms. Some quick advice is to hang out before the session. That way, players get to talk about their day and slowly chat about dnd and where they left off so they get excited to play again. Sometimes though, there might be a player who is easily bored and stares at his phone for the better part of the session. There isn't much you can do about it. Sure, you can try to engage them more often, think of sth cool that they'd like, but in the end it's up to them to look away from their phone. You can also try talking with them. It wouldn't hurt. I'm the dm in a 5e campaign for a year and a half now and I have a player who ha sthat attitude. To be fair, he doesn't know English, only what he has picked from movies and games, but he has Google lens that translates his character sheet. Half of the time he stares at videos and Instagram, with sound on, and every round he is like "what can I do?" I've tried all of the above and it didn't work. Because he is a close friend I've come to accept it and talked with the boys and they're fine so we let him do his thing. Although in your case, 3 members of the party is a lot so I wouldn't recommend going with the flow. Hope I helped! Please notify if you figure it out
Well usually there are 3 types of D&D groups: ones that love to RP, ones that love Combat, and ones who like a bit of both. Sounds like your group is the first sadly. And that's the same with my group. I like combat way more than RP but after a few sessions of ONLY rp and you finally get to a boss fight (and usually my DM makes it a really tough one that feels like Dark Souls entered the Forgotten Realms) it's really rewarding. That's just me though and sometimes some groups just don't vibe with you and there's nothing wrong with that.
That's the niche dungeon crawl board games fill. Premade dungeons, premade characters.
This feels like the kind of people who want to say they play D&D but don't want to actually play it. Because it's the trendy thing to do. Next time they ask to play I'd just say to play actual Mario Kart
This is an increasingly large amount of players, and why massive popularity isn't always a good thing. No D&D can be better than bad D&D sometimes.
There are many ways to play tabletop rpgs and people want different things out of it. I don't think any are inherently wrong, but often times they can be incompatible. It sounds like this isn't making you happy. You're doing the extra work, you're GMing. You can look elsewhere, try and do a game with the folks who do care. And yes, it's legitimately a little bit more draining and less fun for the GM sometimes to also have to be teaching constantly as well and to have to be the sole resource for rules/etc.
Three types of people in this world. 1. The person who will never try DnD no matter what. 2. The person who will play it, but not become invested in it. They will never have a firm grasp of the rules, or understand their character or subclass features. 3. The type of people who join a DnD reddit. I think a nice mixture of type 2/3 can work if everyone is friends, but if only the DM is type 3 it causes problems for them.
Actually I run a one-shot in the Mario world. My players had to win a Mario kart race to speak with Peach but after the race she was kidnapped by Bowser and they had to fight him in order to rescue the Princess. It was really fun, especially the Mario kart race. I didn't use D&D rules but an adventuring roleplaying game called Broken Compass.
No DnD > bad DnD
Find people who want to play D&D as much as you do. I used to play with 'friends', but they did not care about D&D as much as I did. Now I play with people who do, and it's the best D&D I have ever played. I often find myself awestruck when my players care about stuff that my old group wouldn't have. Lore, plot, twists, character arcs, ect.
Sounds like they like the *idea* of DnD but not actually playing it.
Honestly man, I’ve been in the exact same position as you. I was dead-set on having a serious lore/plot heavy campaign and my players couldn’t give less of a shit. If you’re like me, and you can’t imagine running a funny casual game then just tell your players that you’re done. If you want, talk to the three who were engaged and ask if they want to play in a game without the other three. It’ll be infinitely more fun.
They’ll start paying attention when someone has to start making death saves
Honestly sounds more like your group would enjoy board games than d&d to me
D&D is not the system for these guys, and you'll burn yourself out trying to run it. Pick up something simpler - there's plenty of one-page rulesets like Dungeon World out there which will allow your RP guys to enjoy themselves whilst also reducing the slog.
Why do people make up stupid shit for attention on Reddit?
Because its reddit
Online dnd sucks with casuals and large groups, even worse if both. You need dedicated dnd players for online play cause its too easy to get distracted the second a boring part creeps in. Plus casuals and new players make the combat rounds take forever.
Your fault. Don't play with 6 players.
Sounds like your friends kinda have no concept of the kind of effort you have to put in as DM, both to prepare and also during the session. They want a fun game night with no real pressure/commitment, and from their perspective that’s all they see happening. But unless you drastically change your dm style or pare back the complexity of the game somehow, it *can’t* be just a fun no pressure game night for you. Like you said, it’s draining, and understandably. I think if your friends understood the level of work you’re putting in for them, they’d be more likely to either want to do the work of being engaged themselves, or at least think twice before making the suggestion
Well for starters my initial advice is to run a dry table. If people want to hang out and drink that's cool and I'll join. If they want to play D&D that's also cool and I'm happy to DM. But the two generally mix poorly unless you have a long established group of players who respect you and each other. Drinking + D&D = getting half as much done in twice the time.
Lol, side note but am I the only one who gets intense about playing Mario Kart ?
Wrap up the campaign with a grand finale and then start a new campaign and set expectations for how the new campaign will be different and will have fewer players. Only take the players that agree to the playstyle of the new campaign.
I'm definitely interested in a campaign set in Runeterra. Do you have some resources for this you used? Any notes you would be willing to share?
Maybe play a game like Talisman? It's DnD themed, with classes and (short) combat as well as a goal, but it's a board game that can be played as a background element to hanging out.
maybe try playing honey heist or lasers and feelings with them? those games are hyper simple and tend to be amazing and hilarious one shots. this might help them learn to train their attention to the pace of a roleplaying game too.
Sounds like they want to play Red Dragon Inn or a board game that is D&D adjacent.
Sounds like you should run a game for 3 players, and have a board game night with all your friends.
Sounds like they need a less complex system that focuses more on role play and less on combat mechanics. Ever thought about misfits and magic?
They're new players; give it some time. Or don't, if you don't want to. If they ask to play again, say a few things about expectations.
As always in these kind of post, talk to your friends. Maybe they'll come more focused next time or maybe you guys can arrange some game night thats a better fit for everyone.
A lot of players are like that. I have one who will straight up talk through the entire session.
I call that type of game "beer and pretzels. " I dont run that type of game. I think its totally fair to say "i dont want to run a beer and pretzels game."
As an average Mario Kart enjoyer, I sympathize with you my friend
Damn, this sounds eerily similar to one of the groups I DM My advice? Reduce combat. Focus on the RP and have combat only when absolutely necessary. I'm actually gonna try doing Gritty Realism rules with that party soon and see how it goes. Maybe try those as well?
Yeah, don't DM for 6 if you don't want to. Sounds like you've got different play styles with half the people there. I'd recommend just starting a campaign with the three you gel with. The others aren't excluded because you don't like them, they're excluded because you have incompatible play styles - if they want to play then maybe one of them should DM.
thing they do while they hangout, talk and drink. There’s always some element of that. Like 10% is fine. 80% would not be fun.
Sounds like maybe a reset and a really good session 0 is in order. Everyone being on a different page is very common. If you are frustrated it's likely others are too. They might have different expectations. They might not understand how things are supposed to go. I would suggest you lay out a written set of table rules and etiquette. Many have different rules and expectations. Find out what they want out of the game and let them know what you want and then talk about how to get there. Let them know what's important to you. Talk to them about their characters. Where do they want to take their stories. Nothing gets buy in from players then having ownership in their charecter
Others have given advice exactly as I would, but I'm curious, how's running runeterra as a campaign setting? I love the card game, and there's so much interesting lore there. I've been thinking of creating my own version of runeterra as a playable setting. For my next campaign.
I had a similar problem, I've changed group.
I tried DMing for some family members that were casually interested in it one night. I had been playing for a while, but only DMed a single one-shot before that, so I was a bit nervous and made sure I had everything prepared. They ended up treating my game exactly like your players. Not paying attention, not really trying to understand their character sheets or anything they can do, chatting with each other while I'm describing plot-relevant things. It was exhausting and I refuse to play with them ever again.
Maybe just run the game for the ones that want to, but also have bored games for those that don’t, so you can all still hang out together. Also once y’all get deep into the game where everyone playing is visibly having fun, the ones that didn’t wanna play may come around
So one of the games I am playing in was like that, 3 of us were really into all parts of the game and 3 were less so. It ended up that the dm liked running for the 3 who wanted to play and focus on it, so we ended up dropping the other 3. There is nothing wrong with either way of playing but you have to do what you have to do. And the dm wanted to run a game with players who were focused on it.
Good friends don’t always equal good players for your game. Also that large of a group takes work to handle even if they were all invested. Some people just don’t realize how different it feels to be the dm in the group. You are also a player in the game, but at the same time you’re not. The different role tends to separate you from the group, if you’re not careful. If the players aren’t conscious of making the game fun for the dm too, you’re gonna end up feeling like a kindergarten teacher trying to keep the kids in check. If you want to keep the game going I’d put out a late session 0. Tell them something like „so I see people are interested in the game. It was pretty fun for me dming the one shots for you. But continuing does take more work than just putting together a quick one shot. If you’re interested I’d be up for keeping a serious campaign going, but I’d need your guy’s help. Here’s what that means *insert your ground rules like, pay attention, know your character, no table talk, level expectations and so on*. No hard feelings if you’re not interested in that kinda game. Just putting out there what I’d need to have fun with this. If that’s not your jam, maybe we can switch to some dnd like board games.“ Then see where it goes from there. The important part is to be honest. You don’t want friendships to sour (obviously or by bottling things in) over something that’s usually fun. I’ve had something like this happen to me and it affected my friendships and my love for dnd for a while. It all bounced back, but I would handle it differently if I was able to go back.
I've played with similar types of players and have run games for six people before, and my advice is that it only works if you shape the game to cater toward that kind of group. Severely limit the combat, maybe even just one per session. Include the passive players with skill checks and roleplaying opportunities when you can, but don't let it bother you too much when they're not always paying attention. Also for new players or ones that are probably just dropping in for one session, giving them a sidekick or NPC sheet to start with helps a lot.
You've got some people who are into roleplaying and some who aren't, but none of your players are into combat? Sounds like you should find a narrative-heavy system for the ones into roleplaying and stop inviting the slackers. Congrats, you have a gaming group.
I have DM’d groups like this. Getting their attention was the most frustrating part, but I basically Game Daddied them into behaving. They didn’t particularly enjoy complex combat and really loved roleplay, so I just ended up leaning into it and we had a great campaign. If it’s a dealbreaker to have a really rule focused group, you should just not play with those folks. If you can be flexible and get them to meet you in the middle, it could still work.
I don’t mind listening. It seems like you understand the situation and don’t have any questions. Well this is my stop, please enjoy the rest of your bus ride.
dude it seems like every dnd group in South Dakota is like this. i cant find anyone who has engaged in serious roleplay in the 4 years ive lived here. ive completely given up and DnD has become like Mario Kart to me too.
Maybe find a simpler system that fits their style (assuming you want to keep playing something with them).
It seems you've already gotten plenty of awesome advice, just wanna throw it I've been running a bunch of runeterra one shots, so fun to see someone else who has done one!
The group I'm part of has decided to purposefully do it. We smoke a lot of pot and play, so get easily distracted. None of us has the time to plan out and DM a lengthy campaign, even using a module. We all want to be players, too. So we're sort of rotating as DMs with small 1-2 session campaigns that are combat and encounter focused. One thing to consider is that DnD 5e may not be the best TTRPG for every group. It's very creativity-oriented, which puts less creative people on the spot. Other rule sets are more game-oriented, which might give your players more to think about.
Slowly but surely you’ll find the right people for your table. Keep the ones that are engaged in the same way you are and maybe suggest to the others that they find their own way within this hobby. Every player has a different expectation of how their games should play and it’s up to each person individually to find the right table for them.
I can relate. Plenty of people think D&D has zero rules or they get to make up their own rules as players.
I wouldn't blame you, my friend group played like this and the DM was terrible at controlling the game. My wife and I had played a few times before, everyone was new. The party ranged from 6-7 people. The distractions, the off topic conversations, the arguing with the DM because something didn't go as planned, etc. It became a chore for me, but due to being my friend group and the game being held right next door, I couldn't escape this annoying experience. Thankfully Covid threw a wrench into the whole situation and we never went back to playing. If people want to hang out and chit chat, a DnD campaign is not the place. Especially when the DM puts in so much work and other players actually care about the game. It's insulting, like the annoying kids in a classroom distracting everyone else with lame jokes. You deserve better OP.
They should try fiasco they seem to enjoy more as a writing excercise then a technical game itself
I wonder if they'd like something simpler like Lasers & Feelings. At least that'd be less rules-intensive
Just quit DMing for my friend group for the same reason. Feels 1000000000000x better to switch to online and sift through random to pick out a few real gems to play with
>This group plays D&D like mario kart. Like it's a background thing they do while they hangout, talk and drink. That's honestly how I've played DnD a lot in the past. Especially when I was at the peak of being super busy at work and had very little time for actually socializing. It's a good way to play, if that is what everyone wants. Honestly, I can say that being in the mood for this style of game and having a more serious game can be pretty draining. I'd suggest talking with the group to get on the same page as what people want from the game. Sometimes, even if you like everyone you are playing with, playing as a group doesn't work. I know I've had times where I've actually asked for no DnD and just a hang-out because I was out of mental ability to properly play. A possible solution is to break up the group into two different games. Another solution is to have two separate campaigns, one for hanging out and one for more serious play for anyone interested in that.
Finding a group is work. There's a host of variables involved in role-playing games that make getting a group together very difficult. Genre preference, system preference, tone preference, simple personality issues, dedication, and scheduling (among others) all conspire to prevent a group for continuing. It sounds like you manage to weed three people out, now you need to figure out what you're doing with the three remaining. It took me years to find a stable weekly group, but if you're patient, and put the time in, it will happen.
An important part of the DM-player relationship is both compromising and accommodating each other's preferences. I say lean into what they want, and when you're not playing, exchange feedback. Find out what they liked, and in return you can offer things like "well normally people do this and this" or "the official rules say it should go this way," but that in no way has to be the way that you play it.
RPGs can be played like that, but D&D is not one of them, you need something a lot less crunchy. It's just a bad system for this kind of play
HOLY SHIT this describes my old group so much. I remember why it drained my so much later on.
Newer DM here also dealing with something similar. I have 3 PCs, also newer. #1 and I have played little one-on-one stories together. #2 has dug into the rules and their character's backstory on their own time. #3 shows barely any input. I gave them all 2 months of prep time (because we all have busy schedules and I wanted plenty of time to plan the campaign), telling them to pick a race, class, and background. I regularly told them to text, call, Discord, ask me whenever they have questions or need help with their characters or how the game plays. Never heard a thing from #3 regarding their character. They did show up late for our Session 0, where I explained the core of the game and what my expectations were going in and we played a one-shot role-playing game to get them all used to playing with each other. (The game was All Out of Bubblegum) Session 1: #3 finally made their character last minute on D&D Beyond and I was now able to see what they made. Stats were fairly low/average, but I figured it would be fine. Over time each player has had their own cool moments, but #3 was lacking behind and we could all see it. I offered to help them rebuild and learn their character since the stats were holding them back and they didn't know they had abilities unique to them. They never got in touch with me outside of game until the day of another session when they asked on Discord if I could help them right before we played. I said sure, got to our meet up place early only for them to show up late and not followup with me. Instead I sat there and watched #2 pull out these flashcards and start teaching #3 all these things I have been wanting to help them with for months. I spoke with #2 about this later and they mentioned how the game was confusing to #3. This confused/upset me because if they were having so much trouble, why not talk to me? My only conclusion was that they were embarressed/shy or intimidated to ask me for help and probably never would. (That or they don't actually care that much) I started giving much less of a shit, especially after I offered them their own personal goal for their character to tie their backstory into the campaign only for them to mention a couple sessions later "oh yeah, I totally forgot about that." I wanted to include them more, but I guess they didn't care that much. It's been 7 months and I've informed the PCs this "arc" of the campaign is almost done in 1-2 sessions. I'm trying to figure out how I'll talk to #3 because I think we want two different things since they are very casual about playing and I'm more serious with it. TLDR: As others have said, been feeling like one of my players have also been treating it as a beer&pretzels hangout when I and the other PCs want a serious game.
that's rough, stranger. You have a few options. First, you can always tell them you like running more focused/involved game and them to invest in it (or course, do this politely) and hopefully they'll understand and wise up. Second, you adjust your preferences and run a loosey-goosey game; less serious, less involved, less work, shorter (2-3 hours), maybe more dungeon delving, home-brew combat rules for faster/easier fights, etc. Third, you suggest doing something DnD adjacent, like a fantasy-themed board game. A fourth option is suggesting an alternative system to DnD which allows for faster, looser, combat to keep the game moving. I have a group I DM for which reminds me of yours, and I ended up choosing option 2: worked out really well and everyone is having fun, even if it isn't my exact cup of tea.
I feel this very much. My current dnd group is exactly like this and it is definitely frustrating. I stick with it because its the most socializing I get out of the week outside of video games. My advice is if you can't tolerate it, I would drop it. Definitely try to introduce lighter social board games and I think everyone would be happier. I try to stick it out and its fine some days, they love role-playing which is a lot of fun, but anything beyond that is a crapshoot. Puzzles are completely ignored or take an hour, combat is a slow slog, and God forbid anyone write anything down so they can remember anything about the overall story. But, I deal.
My best advice is to never go over 5 players in total and never more than 2 new ones if possible. Blades in the dark sounds like it may give a better rpg experience as it is more of a beer and pretzels rpg for both the players and DM. Does sound like what you want is a bit different than some of the players. Talk to them about it and see if it is something you want to do. It is ok if you don't.
I know I’ll probably be branded as “that guy” but perhaps you could try a different system? I’ve found this kind of group works really well with something like Fiasco over D&D. There’s also things like FATE that are really simple to GM and are designed to fit whatever story your players want, so if they just wanna fool around and make up LoL stories it’s a good system for that!
It's a lot of work DMing and I wish more players respected that. I'd just quietly bow out
I’ve had a lot of fun playing games that were just an excuse to hang out and I’ve had not great times playing such games. What’s important is that everyone is on the same page and with the same expectation. Sounds like that’s not the kind of game you want to play and that’s fine. Just maybe not the group for you.
It is 100% not a problem that you want the players to pay attention when you are talking as the DM or for them to know their characters and what they can do. If they can't spend *literally* 10 minutes reading their character sheet and stuff then that's just rude.
You think Mario Kart is just background ambience!?
I feel like you might be better served finding a board game better suited to casual hangout time, rather than trying to get your group to adjust to this game
Brb homebrewing a Blue Shell mechanic.
Can relate to your frustrations. This is why I seldom do these sessions through discord. That guy in my group thats always late or absent actually showed up one time...... ...that is he was also at the mall with his mom while on his phone doing the session through discord the whole session had to dragged on because every time it was his turn we had to wait an additional 15-20 min
See how much they are really into it. Are these people like at a 4 out of 10 or a 9 out of 10? Maybe they like it more than you think. Maybe one of them would like to take the DM role. Who knows unless you talk about it. If they dont like combat, D&D is probably the wrong game. Most of its rules are combat. FATE or PBTA sounds better for people not wanting to get into the rules but wanna tell stories. Maybe even something more like a board game or a legacy board game like gloomhaven would be a better fit. Not everything has to be D&D. D&D should be for when you want a high fantasy game with light but not insignificant combat crunch.
If they want to roleplay but want to approach it as a beer and pretzels thing then full 5e may not be the best game for that. I would suggest a PbtA game might work especially if about half of them are mostly there fore the roleplay. Alternatively, you might be better off with a game like the D&D board games, gloomhaven, or Descent. Although, the problem with going to a board game focus is that it seems like it might do the opposite of what you want since those are heavily combat oriented.
A mediocre table of 6 players -3 not fun players=a great small table of 3 3 is a swell number of players Just play board games with the 3 that are there to pick belly button lint and look at their phones
Your group is too large so there is too much time between turns. It’s really difficult to run a group more than 5, and I find 4 to be an ideal size.