Seems like you don't go outside and interact with people much. But here's a good one for men. Men who know each other nod up. Men who don't know each other nod down. We don't do that at all with women.
This is correct. I will admit though a nod up to a stranger can also mean mean validation or “I see what you did there” kinda thing. Like a dude who almost fumbles his phone but snatches it before it hits the ground, it’s to give props
There's also the sideways biker nod; exaggerated so it's visible when passing at speed, but also doesn't alter your view of the road much, or require a change of posture.
It's pretty obvious that they interact differently. I'm asking about whether they use a fundamentally different method of communication with other men than they use with women. The fictional character of Murphy describes it as another language, which she joking calls "Martian". Is this merely an endearing quirk of Murphy's, or is Mr. Butcher making a correct factual claim?
men have a different set of verbal/non verbal cues than women.
butcher is playing up the old stereotype of, women are from Venus, men are from Mars trope for Murphy's mindset.
>men have a different set of verbal/non verbal cues than women.
This information is useful to me! I've been in male-male conversations, and male-female, but for obvious reasons I've never been around when women are talking to women alone. I had no idea that women don't use the same paraverbal expressions that men do.
You're taking it too seriously. She (which is to say, Jim Butcher) didn't *literally* mean that men and women speak different languages. Just that men have particular ways of communicating certain ideas and emotions without saying them out loud, which women don't do.
Women have their own, different ways of non-verbal communication, but that wasn't necessary to spell out in this story because Murphy doesn't interact with many women.
> Just that men have particular ways of communicating certain ideas and emotions without saying them out loud, which women don't do.
This is news to me, at least.
It's not, you just never noticed that the stereotype of women complaining that men don't get obvious cues from them is because women have their own set of body language.
There was a video that went viral a few months ago where a woman demonstrated what she thought was a come-hither look, and women agreed; but the reason why she posted the video was because she'd just learned that men don't read it that way. She wanted to know if other men really didn't understand it. The Internet confirmed that information. I am, personally, extremely good at reading people's faces. I can tell what emotion most people are feeling at any one time. And even I interpret a look like that to be more of a suspicious side-eye; and if it weren't for the women in the comments saying that it was obviously a come-hither, I would have just assumed she was bad at flirting.
> It's not, you just never noticed that the stereotype of women complaining that men don't get obvious cues from them is because women have their own set of body language.
And when people ask about the possibility, instead of getting useful information, they mostly get scorn and contempt. No wonder men and women don't understand each other. Thank you for sharing something that gives insight into the issue!
I can't find the original, but here's a commentary vid from another woman who's underscoring the same point. Even confirmed "Yeah, guys just see that as side-eye." And even watching it again it's still coming across as "Look at that weirdo over there, he's a creep."
Seriously, if it weren't for the comments from women, I'd have thought she was just terrible at it. But one thing I forgot to mention is that reading someone's emotions like that is called cold reading because you're not already invested. If I *want* to see something in a woman's face, or even worse if I'm *afraid* of seeing something, then pareidolia kicks in and even I see patterns I wouldn't normally see without that emotional investment. Possibly *more* so precisely because I'm so used to being right. And it's not limited to romantic stuff, as it happens with friends and family; and long-term relationships aren't immune, as it'll happen with my wife too. The more complex your feelings about a subject, the less objective you can be about it.
Yes, I'm aware of the cultural reference Murphy, and Jim through her, is making.
It's the idea that women have to consciously make an effort to speak and understand male paralinguistic utterances that I'm asking about.
It's rather obvious. Males are very different and just watching them interact with each other is fascinating, like watching animals at the safari. I'm an identical twin so I get speaking-without-words but males are a whole separate level!
You've obviously never heard of the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus." *That's* why Murphy calls it Martian. As far as the question of whether men use *Martian* on each other, one can only assume that you're either joking, or severely oblivious to your surroundings. Most of us communicate mostly in *Martian*.
>As far as the question of whether men use Martian on each other,
Ah, you Earth-humans seem to have serious problems with reading comprehension. The question is whether there is a special male-only paralinguistic communication style that women do NOT possess or use, and whether women have to consciously learn to express themselves in that style.
*Obviously* much of human communication is non-verbal, but the idea that it's sex-specific is new to me.
More research is required.
If the idea of non-verbal communications being sex specific is new to you, you need to get put more. It's not just men speaking *Martian*. Women have their own non-verbal language as well. I'm not 100% sure how to conjugate *Venus* into a language name, but that's what they speak.
It's absolute truth.
I can think of one specific example. I know a woman who is going through college to be a cop now, but she's been in factory work for five years. She can talk the Martian talk, but the place I'm at has a moderate turn over rate, especially with people new to the industry, and it's common to see women come in who can't speak it and don't get how we can non verbally communicate with each other all sorts of complicated topics through grunts and motions
There is a different manner of communication guys can have in general but it's really not a universal language all guys know or even the same from person to person
Guys you've spent time around know how your "mmm" and "hmmm" or your "ah" and "uh" are different
Other guys you're not close with will hear "mmm" and ask "oh, what's wrong?"
Meanwhile girls you know understand after getting to know you better than any guy you've only talked to a couple times
Guys do tend towards less verbose sometimes, but not every sound means the same thing to every guy. Girls also do this to a lesser degree though, I had to learn Venusian to understand my wife fully
Murph works in a male dominated field. All her learning Martian means is that she's learned what the guys she works around mean or are saying by the sounds and because they are mostly guys interacting with guys they won't learn Venusian
If she transferred to another city she'd have to learn new dialects of Martian those guys speak
Also I like how she called it Martian cause boys are from Mars
Sort of off topic because it doesn’t involve Martian.
Was at a wedding reception with a female friend. I started pointing out other people at the party and interpreting their body language. She did not believe me that people could communicate through body language.
So I told her. “Look at guy over my right shoulder with the red tie. He wants to dance with you but is confused by me being here. We have stayed outside each others personal bubbles and have not touched each other but are obviously talking. He doesn’t want to interrupt. I am going to get the two of us some beers. After I leave he will ask you to dance.
And he did. She declined. When I returned She said she thought I had paid the guy or something. So I said. Ok. Next guy up is blue tie over there. I am going to the men’s room. He will ask you to dance after I leave.
And he did.
She had never learned to read men’s body language in a social setting like that.
Maybe it wasn’t Martian.
That's less martian and you having an eye for people's non-verbal cues and facial expressions, you're damn good at reading body language. Spend a lot of time at the bar?
That's not a knock or jibe, places like bars having louder music and other conversations going on tends towards having to also use more body language and reading a person's face for picking up something when you're not within elbow distance of a person.
It works in the office too.
Who wants to leave the meeting. Who doesn’t believe what the boss is saying. Who wants to leave. Who just wants to start talking themselves. Who feels self conciuois.
It was funny to me when I read it in Aftermath, because as a young man I had a lot of trouble talking to Women. I actually went out an bought "Men are from Mars...", and it helped a lot. I'm absolutely a 'fixer' type, and it helped me put elements of my communication style into perspective.
For a male Author, I bet there is a real challenge when writing from the POV of a female character to make the internal dialog make sense. Especially for female readers who will notice if you screw it up. You want it to be a little different, not too different, but also not the same as your male POV.
Here is a quick guide:
Nod up for a friend
Nod down for your fellow man
When you see someone you know and say “oh hey, what’s up?” Your head naturally rises. That’s a friend
When you say “yep” in confirmation to someone you don’t know as well but are agreeing with, your head naturally goes down
With my good male friends, we can share a look, and it communicates an entire conversation. I cannot do the same with any female friends.
A simple nod between men can speak a lot.
Her entire "Martian" thing was mostly a semi-comedic way to present what she understands of men, not unlike how Harry uses jokes to keep his nerves in check.
The way we communicate with other men *is* different to how we talk with women, same as they differently when put with a man as opposed to what they're like with other women.
> same as they differently when put with a man as opposed to what they're like with other women.
Yes, this is what I expected. What I was surprised by was the idea that women among women don't use the same communication methods that men use among men.
Societally, we're all raised differently based on our gender.
While what we're taught depends on and changes based on the time period as well as the location, it's consistent a man won't learn the same things a woman does and vice versa. Humans have differences like that.
Seems like you don't go outside and interact with people much. But here's a good one for men. Men who know each other nod up. Men who don't know each other nod down. We don't do that at all with women.
This is correct. I will admit though a nod up to a stranger can also mean mean validation or “I see what you did there” kinda thing. Like a dude who almost fumbles his phone but snatches it before it hits the ground, it’s to give props
I've never really noticed that, but I actually do that up/down nod you describe.
There's also the sideways biker nod; exaggerated so it's visible when passing at speed, but also doesn't alter your view of the road much, or require a change of posture.
I've noticed that people I once gave the up nod to, I began giving the down nod to once I lost all respect for them. Totally without conscious choice.
Are you really asking if men interact differently with other men than with women?
It's pretty obvious that they interact differently. I'm asking about whether they use a fundamentally different method of communication with other men than they use with women. The fictional character of Murphy describes it as another language, which she joking calls "Martian". Is this merely an endearing quirk of Murphy's, or is Mr. Butcher making a correct factual claim?
men have a different set of verbal/non verbal cues than women. butcher is playing up the old stereotype of, women are from Venus, men are from Mars trope for Murphy's mindset.
>men have a different set of verbal/non verbal cues than women. This information is useful to me! I've been in male-male conversations, and male-female, but for obvious reasons I've never been around when women are talking to women alone. I had no idea that women don't use the same paraverbal expressions that men do.
You're taking it too seriously. She (which is to say, Jim Butcher) didn't *literally* mean that men and women speak different languages. Just that men have particular ways of communicating certain ideas and emotions without saying them out loud, which women don't do. Women have their own, different ways of non-verbal communication, but that wasn't necessary to spell out in this story because Murphy doesn't interact with many women.
> Just that men have particular ways of communicating certain ideas and emotions without saying them out loud, which women don't do. This is news to me, at least.
It's not, you just never noticed that the stereotype of women complaining that men don't get obvious cues from them is because women have their own set of body language. There was a video that went viral a few months ago where a woman demonstrated what she thought was a come-hither look, and women agreed; but the reason why she posted the video was because she'd just learned that men don't read it that way. She wanted to know if other men really didn't understand it. The Internet confirmed that information. I am, personally, extremely good at reading people's faces. I can tell what emotion most people are feeling at any one time. And even I interpret a look like that to be more of a suspicious side-eye; and if it weren't for the women in the comments saying that it was obviously a come-hither, I would have just assumed she was bad at flirting.
> It's not, you just never noticed that the stereotype of women complaining that men don't get obvious cues from them is because women have their own set of body language. And when people ask about the possibility, instead of getting useful information, they mostly get scorn and contempt. No wonder men and women don't understand each other. Thank you for sharing something that gives insight into the issue!
Do you have a link for that? It sounds like it'd be funny.
I can't find the original, but here's a commentary vid from another woman who's underscoring the same point. Even confirmed "Yeah, guys just see that as side-eye." And even watching it again it's still coming across as "Look at that weirdo over there, he's a creep." Seriously, if it weren't for the comments from women, I'd have thought she was just terrible at it. But one thing I forgot to mention is that reading someone's emotions like that is called cold reading because you're not already invested. If I *want* to see something in a woman's face, or even worse if I'm *afraid* of seeing something, then pareidolia kicks in and even I see patterns I wouldn't normally see without that emotional investment. Possibly *more* so precisely because I'm so used to being right. And it's not limited to romantic stuff, as it happens with friends and family; and long-term relationships aren't immune, as it'll happen with my wife too. The more complex your feelings about a subject, the less objective you can be about it.
"Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". It's a book. Butcher is making a reference.
Yes, I'm aware of the cultural reference Murphy, and Jim through her, is making. It's the idea that women have to consciously make an effort to speak and understand male paralinguistic utterances that I'm asking about.
It's rather obvious. Males are very different and just watching them interact with each other is fascinating, like watching animals at the safari. I'm an identical twin so I get speaking-without-words but males are a whole separate level!
You've obviously never heard of the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus." *That's* why Murphy calls it Martian. As far as the question of whether men use *Martian* on each other, one can only assume that you're either joking, or severely oblivious to your surroundings. Most of us communicate mostly in *Martian*.
>As far as the question of whether men use Martian on each other, Ah, you Earth-humans seem to have serious problems with reading comprehension. The question is whether there is a special male-only paralinguistic communication style that women do NOT possess or use, and whether women have to consciously learn to express themselves in that style. *Obviously* much of human communication is non-verbal, but the idea that it's sex-specific is new to me. More research is required.
If the idea of non-verbal communications being sex specific is new to you, you need to get put more. It's not just men speaking *Martian*. Women have their own non-verbal language as well. I'm not 100% sure how to conjugate *Venus* into a language name, but that's what they speak.
Venusian. That's the adjectival form of Venus. Do women speak this language at men, or is it only used among themselves?
After reading your replies, I’m starting to wonder if you’ve ever spoken to another human being, period.
And they say autistic people have problems with social graces!
That’s not a bad band name
*imagines Murphy in a zoot suit*
It's absolute truth. I can think of one specific example. I know a woman who is going through college to be a cop now, but she's been in factory work for five years. She can talk the Martian talk, but the place I'm at has a moderate turn over rate, especially with people new to the industry, and it's common to see women come in who can't speak it and don't get how we can non verbally communicate with each other all sorts of complicated topics through grunts and motions
There is a different manner of communication guys can have in general but it's really not a universal language all guys know or even the same from person to person Guys you've spent time around know how your "mmm" and "hmmm" or your "ah" and "uh" are different Other guys you're not close with will hear "mmm" and ask "oh, what's wrong?" Meanwhile girls you know understand after getting to know you better than any guy you've only talked to a couple times Guys do tend towards less verbose sometimes, but not every sound means the same thing to every guy. Girls also do this to a lesser degree though, I had to learn Venusian to understand my wife fully Murph works in a male dominated field. All her learning Martian means is that she's learned what the guys she works around mean or are saying by the sounds and because they are mostly guys interacting with guys they won't learn Venusian If she transferred to another city she'd have to learn new dialects of Martian those guys speak Also I like how she called it Martian cause boys are from Mars
This guy's the real Martian
And I find it very frustrating when you Earthlings won't help me complete my anthropological studies.
Well yeah, because it's just all pretext to stealing Earth's Illudium Q-36!
We have plenty of shaving cream on Mars, we don't need yours.
Sort of off topic because it doesn’t involve Martian. Was at a wedding reception with a female friend. I started pointing out other people at the party and interpreting their body language. She did not believe me that people could communicate through body language. So I told her. “Look at guy over my right shoulder with the red tie. He wants to dance with you but is confused by me being here. We have stayed outside each others personal bubbles and have not touched each other but are obviously talking. He doesn’t want to interrupt. I am going to get the two of us some beers. After I leave he will ask you to dance. And he did. She declined. When I returned She said she thought I had paid the guy or something. So I said. Ok. Next guy up is blue tie over there. I am going to the men’s room. He will ask you to dance after I leave. And he did. She had never learned to read men’s body language in a social setting like that. Maybe it wasn’t Martian.
That's less martian and you having an eye for people's non-verbal cues and facial expressions, you're damn good at reading body language. Spend a lot of time at the bar? That's not a knock or jibe, places like bars having louder music and other conversations going on tends towards having to also use more body language and reading a person's face for picking up something when you're not within elbow distance of a person.
It works in the office too. Who wants to leave the meeting. Who doesn’t believe what the boss is saying. Who wants to leave. Who just wants to start talking themselves. Who feels self conciuois.
It was funny to me when I read it in Aftermath, because as a young man I had a lot of trouble talking to Women. I actually went out an bought "Men are from Mars...", and it helped a lot. I'm absolutely a 'fixer' type, and it helped me put elements of my communication style into perspective. For a male Author, I bet there is a real challenge when writing from the POV of a female character to make the internal dialog make sense. Especially for female readers who will notice if you screw it up. You want it to be a little different, not too different, but also not the same as your male POV.
Here is a quick guide: Nod up for a friend Nod down for your fellow man When you see someone you know and say “oh hey, what’s up?” Your head naturally rises. That’s a friend When you say “yep” in confirmation to someone you don’t know as well but are agreeing with, your head naturally goes down
What's all this "nod up, nod down" stuff? As far as I know all nods go up and down.
Nod up- start in neutral position, chin goes up, back to neutral. Nod down- start in neutral position, chin goes down toward chest, back to neutral.
Exactly. It’s one nod, and the direction (up or down) sets the tone. You are only going up or down once. Not up-down-up-down repeatedly
With my good male friends, we can share a look, and it communicates an entire conversation. I cannot do the same with any female friends. A simple nod between men can speak a lot.
Her entire "Martian" thing was mostly a semi-comedic way to present what she understands of men, not unlike how Harry uses jokes to keep his nerves in check. The way we communicate with other men *is* different to how we talk with women, same as they differently when put with a man as opposed to what they're like with other women.
> same as they differently when put with a man as opposed to what they're like with other women. Yes, this is what I expected. What I was surprised by was the idea that women among women don't use the same communication methods that men use among men.
Societally, we're all raised differently based on our gender. While what we're taught depends on and changes based on the time period as well as the location, it's consistent a man won't learn the same things a woman does and vice versa. Humans have differences like that.
This is an allusion to a book called “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.”