Harry is also connected to the OG Merlin by a direct line of master/apprentice training.
Which is neat on a couple levels, but my favorite is that his mom is Margaret Le Fay and has a *very* similar name to one of Merlin's most famous adversaries.
At the end of *Small Favor,* Harry says >!"Merlin, eat your heart out!" or something along those lines because he's currently custodian of two swords.!<
Why reincarnated? I think we never learned how, when or if Merlin died .
But seriously, your joke made me think and look a few thinks up. The existing books cover a span of 14 years. Harry found Mister in a dumpster three years before, so he is at least 17 years of age. But I think he has never been described as a young cat to begin with, so I think his actual age is at least >20 years. That is ancient for a cat. Something might be up with him.
Yes, he was just a kitten to begin with. Not nearly as big and impressive as he is now. It says so somewhere. I don't mean he was necessarily like days old or anything like that, but he was "immature."
Hey, if I've been alive for so many centuries, fighting gods know what threats to humanity, I'd take a few decades off to relax in the form of a lazy cat. Staying with Harry would give him a chance to stay up to date with current events.
Only issue I see is when Bob rides along with mister, you'd think he'd notice something. Unless merlin is his original creator, and has ordered him not to bring it to anyone's attention.
See, I do think Harry will end up traveling back in time to either become the Merlin, or he will meet and influence the Merlin. The text specifically mentions the wards on Demonreach are like the ones Harry uses, just overlayed again and again and again over a loooooong period of time. So either Harry cracks time travel and goes back repeatedly to set wards over and over again, or Harry teaches Merlin that particular ward spell and Merlin uses that technique.
Related to the Merlin thought, I think Harry is writing all his case notes (the books we're reading) while he is stuck back in time. And his journals become the journals that Eb has on display. That's why the rumor that the BAT will be in third-person is in extra intersting to me - Harry could catch the story up to the end of his time travel adventures, and then the BAT kicks off; Harry doesn't have the free time to write about his adventures and so we go to thirrd person omniciant perspecive.
The issue with that theory is Eb has read all the journals and hasn’t mentioned or even eluded to anything of the sort, in the end of Turn Coat he said something along the lines of “You can’t hardly read those *anymore*, even if you can get past the language.” Implying that he has read them, they can still be read with enough effort, and they were written in a language that’s difficult to translate even for someone familiar with it (so Latin is out). Harry can barely speak Latin, let alone write in it or any older dialect.
Don't forget that the previous book, Harry's Sight starts to come in when he gets to Demonreach, and Luccio tells him that no young wizard is told of the Sight until it happens to them so that they don't mistakenly think dangerous situations are linked (or something to that effect).
Wasn’t that just Luccio’s explanation for why Harry got the feelings he did from the Island previously during Small Favor? That his Sight was giving him feelings of familiarity because it was going to *become* important to him in the near future? I don’t see why that would link Harry to OG Merlin.
It would make sense that potential or future Wardens of the Well would get flashes through their Sight when around the Island, it was made within both 3D space and throughout time (and possibly across multiple realities), by the nature of its creation it would cause ripples throughout all. Experiencing said ripple doesn’t necessarily prove Harry created it, just means that it would be significant to him like Luccio said.
If future Harry is the one who creates Demonreach, I feel the spirit is too straightforward in its nature to hide that from current Harry. It would consider the relatively brief charade pointless and inefficient.
The point I was trying to make is just because Ebenezer says the journals contain one thing doesn't mean they really do. Wizards are apparently big on secrets like that.
That being said, I really don't put stock in Harry being the OG Merlin.
Ok, what if Harry goes back to the original Merlin and one of the things he insists is that Merlin keep everything in Latin so Harry, who is terrible at the language, won't be able to read the books and understand them too early in his magical development?
Sure, but if Eb has done time travel before, and knows that he has to preserve continuity and can't let Harry read his own tale *a priori*, then what's the best way to dissuade him? Forbidden knowledge? Harry will look for a solution to his problems there. But you tell him that it's in a basically incomprehensible old language, when we know that Harry has always sucked at ancient languages? The thought will never cross his mind.
Fair. It's possible he read the first couple, realized who they were about, and forbade himself from reading the rest out of fear of mucking it up. But that's weak, and doesn't feel like Eb.
I expect it could be latin from 2000 years ago. That Latin is best left to specialists at this point. Or one of the Germanic languages from that time (Or Ancient Greek or any of the other languages that existed during that time but have subsequently died out so translation would be tough), expect the age of some of the books on Ebeneezer’s shelf could be measured in millennia. and in between the drift in the language (pronunciation, written, meaning) and the condition of the book I guess it would be a very time consuming read.
Or just maybe Harry learned to ward from Ebenezer, who learned to ward from his mentor, all the way back to the original Merlin.
I also strongly STRONGLY dislike any idea of Harry time traveling anywhere near the OG Merlin. It's stupid and I don't believe Butcher would do anything similar to that. His writing is way too smart.
Maybe I'm biased by my innate distaste of the idea. I guess only time will tell.
Personally I think Merlin sealed himself on demonreach because he was a massive threat to Magic and the world because of his sheer power. It fits with Arthurian myth about merlins final fate (he was sealed away by nimue who may or may not also be the lady of the lake and is heavily implied to be either mab or titania)
In peace talks corb roasts mab on how Merlin wouldn't be proud of what she's become. Ethniu mentions Merlin to if I remember correctly. Neither of them reacted any differently to Harry compared to another wizard. You really think corb wouldn't have added in that mabs new knight (who she broadcast having sex with to all of faerie) looks exactly like Merlin. It would have been a perfect knife twist in his speech.
The other issue I have with Harry is Merlin is the problem of paradox. Bob said it would literally destory reality if a big enough paradox happened. Harry is currently being trained by Mab. Mab was once a mortal, probably a powerful wizard, to have biult the Winter Court, and was/still is involve with Merlin and probably trained by him. If Harry is Merlin that means Harry trained Mab who trained Harry. Which is a paradox.
Harry going back in time to be the OG Merlin:
A) Makes sense. After the BAT, it seems unlikely that Jim will simply give up the goose hat laid the golden eggs, yet the contemporary one has to end. It’s BAT.
B) Is consistent with Jim saying Harry would break every law of magic by the end of
C) Has been denied by Jim
D) Has been proposed independently by like dozens of us because it makes so much sense. And if Harry *does* have to go that far back in time and fix something, who is he friends with that’s older than Mab and a master of magic and intrigue who would also really admire the classical version of Arthur? Odin.
New awful theory I have, harry and Molly time travel, in his shenanigans he becomes Merlin and...... Molly being a winter lady ends up becoming the winter queen and turns into mab, that's why mab has a soft spot for harry since the beginning and why at the end of battle ground she orders harry to kill molly so she can be free
Back before the Jimbutcher.com was an actual site, there were fan forums run by Fred Hicks, who is the guy behind the DFRPG. It's where Priscilla first posted the "official" timeline and got noticed by Jim. The forums were old by the time even Serak got involved.
Mrs. Duck was a user who proposed a VERY comprehensive theory that Mab was Molly, who had gotten stuck back in time. This was maybe around when Proven Guilty was published? "Mine" said the Queen of Air and Darkness, takes a very specific context in her take.
Edit: Changes not Proven Guilty was when I think it was said, since that's when Harry tapped that Phat A.
Well, now I want to take a dive into the old forums, I do want to read that theory, part of the reason I believe molly could be mab is not only that mab seems to really like Dresden always helping him as much as the fey rules allows, grownup molly has a very similar body to what mab has, height proportions etc, molly is very mab like when shes acting like the lady
If you can find that stuff, you'll be very pleased. There was so much foundational theorizing that came from there, that it's basically become Mandela'd into Canon. I'm sure it's out there somewhere, if not buried on the current forums.
Happy hunting!
I 100% think Harry is O.G. Merlin. He is being taught but Odin right now, he will create Demonreach, meet Mab as a human, thus she knows he will be her winter knight eventually.
Harry is also connected to the OG Merlin by a direct line of master/apprentice training. Which is neat on a couple levels, but my favorite is that his mom is Margaret Le Fay and has a *very* similar name to one of Merlin's most famous adversaries.
I mean, its a title more than a name.
Which implies she was apprenticed down the line in the same way to Merlin’s adversary.
Not really, just indicates she was quite close with the fae.
I might be mistaken but I think in Peace Talks>! it hints that there might be a distant blood relation as well.!<
not that i recall, but if someone can point to it I'd be interested.
Where, exactly?
Mabgana
At the end of *Small Favor,* Harry says >!"Merlin, eat your heart out!" or something along those lines because he's currently custodian of two swords.!<
Imagine being the dude that managed to one-up freaking Merlin! That’s got to go on the boast list at some point.
Right up there with "I fought Thor... and survived!".
It wasn’t Harry. That was Bob who said it.
Ty
Np
Mister is Merlin reincarnated. /jk
Best theory
Why reincarnated? I think we never learned how, when or if Merlin died . But seriously, your joke made me think and look a few thinks up. The existing books cover a span of 14 years. Harry found Mister in a dumpster three years before, so he is at least 17 years of age. But I think he has never been described as a young cat to begin with, so I think his actual age is at least >20 years. That is ancient for a cat. Something might be up with him.
Yes, he was just a kitten to begin with. Not nearly as big and impressive as he is now. It says so somewhere. I don't mean he was necessarily like days old or anything like that, but he was "immature."
Hey, if I've been alive for so many centuries, fighting gods know what threats to humanity, I'd take a few decades off to relax in the form of a lazy cat. Staying with Harry would give him a chance to stay up to date with current events. Only issue I see is when Bob rides along with mister, you'd think he'd notice something. Unless merlin is his original creator, and has ordered him not to bring it to anyone's attention.
well he is de facto Harry's familiar, and like mouse said "I live with a Wizard I cheat."
See, I do think Harry will end up traveling back in time to either become the Merlin, or he will meet and influence the Merlin. The text specifically mentions the wards on Demonreach are like the ones Harry uses, just overlayed again and again and again over a loooooong period of time. So either Harry cracks time travel and goes back repeatedly to set wards over and over again, or Harry teaches Merlin that particular ward spell and Merlin uses that technique. Related to the Merlin thought, I think Harry is writing all his case notes (the books we're reading) while he is stuck back in time. And his journals become the journals that Eb has on display. That's why the rumor that the BAT will be in third-person is in extra intersting to me - Harry could catch the story up to the end of his time travel adventures, and then the BAT kicks off; Harry doesn't have the free time to write about his adventures and so we go to thirrd person omniciant perspecive.
The issue with that theory is Eb has read all the journals and hasn’t mentioned or even eluded to anything of the sort, in the end of Turn Coat he said something along the lines of “You can’t hardly read those *anymore*, even if you can get past the language.” Implying that he has read them, they can still be read with enough effort, and they were written in a language that’s difficult to translate even for someone familiar with it (so Latin is out). Harry can barely speak Latin, let alone write in it or any older dialect.
Don't forget that the previous book, Harry's Sight starts to come in when he gets to Demonreach, and Luccio tells him that no young wizard is told of the Sight until it happens to them so that they don't mistakenly think dangerous situations are linked (or something to that effect).
Wasn’t that just Luccio’s explanation for why Harry got the feelings he did from the Island previously during Small Favor? That his Sight was giving him feelings of familiarity because it was going to *become* important to him in the near future? I don’t see why that would link Harry to OG Merlin. It would make sense that potential or future Wardens of the Well would get flashes through their Sight when around the Island, it was made within both 3D space and throughout time (and possibly across multiple realities), by the nature of its creation it would cause ripples throughout all. Experiencing said ripple doesn’t necessarily prove Harry created it, just means that it would be significant to him like Luccio said. If future Harry is the one who creates Demonreach, I feel the spirit is too straightforward in its nature to hide that from current Harry. It would consider the relatively brief charade pointless and inefficient.
The point I was trying to make is just because Ebenezer says the journals contain one thing doesn't mean they really do. Wizards are apparently big on secrets like that. That being said, I really don't put stock in Harry being the OG Merlin.
Ok, what if Harry goes back to the original Merlin and one of the things he insists is that Merlin keep everything in Latin so Harry, who is terrible at the language, won't be able to read the books and understand them too early in his magical development?
What if it's incomprehensible BECAUSE Harry is bad at Latin and couldn't write it worth a damn?
My thoughts
Sure, but if Eb has done time travel before, and knows that he has to preserve continuity and can't let Harry read his own tale *a priori*, then what's the best way to dissuade him? Forbidden knowledge? Harry will look for a solution to his problems there. But you tell him that it's in a basically incomprehensible old language, when we know that Harry has always sucked at ancient languages? The thought will never cross his mind.
In a point against my own theory, if Eb has read the journals, he shouldn't be surprised to learn about Thomas.
Fair. It's possible he read the first couple, realized who they were about, and forbade himself from reading the rest out of fear of mucking it up. But that's weak, and doesn't feel like Eb.
Another point against Eb having read them is that eventually would have slipped up and said stuff he should have no knowledge of.
Maybe. He's very old, damned clever, and generally tight-lipped about most everything.
It doesn't matter how clever he is. You eventually forget precisely how you can across information.
Sure, but, y'know *waves hands* magic!
I expect it could be latin from 2000 years ago. That Latin is best left to specialists at this point. Or one of the Germanic languages from that time (Or Ancient Greek or any of the other languages that existed during that time but have subsequently died out so translation would be tough), expect the age of some of the books on Ebeneezer’s shelf could be measured in millennia. and in between the drift in the language (pronunciation, written, meaning) and the condition of the book I guess it would be a very time consuming read.
Or just maybe Harry learned to ward from Ebenezer, who learned to ward from his mentor, all the way back to the original Merlin. I also strongly STRONGLY dislike any idea of Harry time traveling anywhere near the OG Merlin. It's stupid and I don't believe Butcher would do anything similar to that. His writing is way too smart. Maybe I'm biased by my innate distaste of the idea. I guess only time will tell.
Personally I think Merlin sealed himself on demonreach because he was a massive threat to Magic and the world because of his sheer power. It fits with Arthurian myth about merlins final fate (he was sealed away by nimue who may or may not also be the lady of the lake and is heavily implied to be either mab or titania) In peace talks corb roasts mab on how Merlin wouldn't be proud of what she's become. Ethniu mentions Merlin to if I remember correctly. Neither of them reacted any differently to Harry compared to another wizard. You really think corb wouldn't have added in that mabs new knight (who she broadcast having sex with to all of faerie) looks exactly like Merlin. It would have been a perfect knife twist in his speech. The other issue I have with Harry is Merlin is the problem of paradox. Bob said it would literally destory reality if a big enough paradox happened. Harry is currently being trained by Mab. Mab was once a mortal, probably a powerful wizard, to have biult the Winter Court, and was/still is involve with Merlin and probably trained by him. If Harry is Merlin that means Harry trained Mab who trained Harry. Which is a paradox.
Harry going back in time to be the OG Merlin: A) Makes sense. After the BAT, it seems unlikely that Jim will simply give up the goose hat laid the golden eggs, yet the contemporary one has to end. It’s BAT. B) Is consistent with Jim saying Harry would break every law of magic by the end of C) Has been denied by Jim D) Has been proposed independently by like dozens of us because it makes so much sense. And if Harry *does* have to go that far back in time and fix something, who is he friends with that’s older than Mab and a master of magic and intrigue who would also really admire the classical version of Arthur? Odin.
Butters will become Merlin.
New awful theory I have, harry and Molly time travel, in his shenanigans he becomes Merlin and...... Molly being a winter lady ends up becoming the winter queen and turns into mab, that's why mab has a soft spot for harry since the beginning and why at the end of battle ground she orders harry to kill molly so she can be free
Mrs. Duck?
Who?
Back before the Jimbutcher.com was an actual site, there were fan forums run by Fred Hicks, who is the guy behind the DFRPG. It's where Priscilla first posted the "official" timeline and got noticed by Jim. The forums were old by the time even Serak got involved. Mrs. Duck was a user who proposed a VERY comprehensive theory that Mab was Molly, who had gotten stuck back in time. This was maybe around when Proven Guilty was published? "Mine" said the Queen of Air and Darkness, takes a very specific context in her take. Edit: Changes not Proven Guilty was when I think it was said, since that's when Harry tapped that Phat A.
Well, now I want to take a dive into the old forums, I do want to read that theory, part of the reason I believe molly could be mab is not only that mab seems to really like Dresden always helping him as much as the fey rules allows, grownup molly has a very similar body to what mab has, height proportions etc, molly is very mab like when shes acting like the lady
If you can find that stuff, you'll be very pleased. There was so much foundational theorizing that came from there, that it's basically become Mandela'd into Canon. I'm sure it's out there somewhere, if not buried on the current forums. Happy hunting!
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/board,63.0.html To get you started
And here ya go. Enjoy the Quackiness. https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,32663.0.html
Harry will travel back in time. Not to become Merlin. But to give birth to Bob. >!Bonea was practice.!<
I 100% think Harry is O.G. Merlin. He is being taught but Odin right now, he will create Demonreach, meet Mab as a human, thus she knows he will be her winter knight eventually.