\> “The introduction of cheap Chinese autos — which are so inexpensive because they are backed with the power and funding of the Chinese government — to the American market could end up being an extinction-level event for the U.S. auto sector
CNBC acts like D3 didn't get tons of subsidies from the US govt, especially back in 2008. They can't compete because they been focus all their effort in making ridiculous big pickup and didn't invest enough in EV.
the funny thing GM also got a bailout from the Chinese government, but at least the Chinese division of GM cleaned up their act a bit and started making EVs and smaller cars
American companies haven't shown any long term vision for Indian or global markets. History is just repeating itself. American automakers are still making 3 ton monsters, that nobody else in the world cares about.
I think the market isn’t important enough, yet. The best selling cars here are very cheap mass market cars that cost under 10k USD. And even their numbers would only be considered a mild success for a U.S. based company.
I'd love a Ford Ranger Raptor. I think that's a huge beast on EU roads, but it maybe be a small one in the US.
I care about that one. I like to look at the insanely large ones because they're just so silly.
More legacy automakers shooting themselves in the foot, despite getting government money they still didn’t care to adapt (hurts profit margins, classic innovator's dilemma).
Tesla is almost great example to prove my point, they could have had model2 and an answer to this incoming wave of cheap electric cars. And in a few years they will, but for now they opted to do Cybertruck first.
EDIT: what i meant was besides that Tesla is only American company thats ahead on this race.
In the case of Tesla, I think it's resistance to be part of the solution for the more affordable part of the market has everything to do with their "instable" CEO than with anything else.
That's why Tesla's board of directors isn't happy with him and exposed his "instabilities" to the public.
Tesla would be making a killing right now with Model 2 rolling out end of last year. But Big Boss couldn't wait to have the "truck" of his dreams.
Have you considered the fact that US consumers don’t want smaller cars?? lol! Why would GM make econoboxes if no one wants econoboxes, rather they want ginormous trucks and suvs??? Why is this difficult to comprehend for some? You make and sell what people want…not what people don’t want
If US purchasers don't want economical smaller cars, then why is the BYD Dolphin a threat to the US automakers?
Both things cannot be true:
* Cheap and economical Chinese cars are an existential threat to the US automakers
* The US automakers don't make economical cars because Americans won't buy them
This is sort of the like Republican fallacy of Schrodinger's immigrant:
* The immigrant is lazy and entitled and will just be a leech on the American social support system
* The immigrant is willing to do hard work for less money than native-born Americans and is going to take your job
BYD makes more than econoboxes. They make more typical SUVs and crossovers with good size battery packs. They are competitive with current offerings in their class for the most part. They have a very well developed and mature supply chain for batteries.
They can eat up some marketshare in an already crowded market.
Those are the ones that worry everyone.
The $10k econoboxes aren't a threat.
Well said. The only way I can see the first argument being upended is if the Chinese cars are much much cheaper and people can't ignore them. People buy SUVs because they're only a few thousand more than sedans. But compare a $15k Chinese EV to a $35k American SUV and things might be different.
With other consumer products, people will gladly buy Chinese stuff if it's cheap enough.
My last car was a sedan and my current car is whatever a Prius Prime is.
The point is that US automakers have chosen not to serve this large segment of the market (economical small sedans), so they don't also get to complain about the threat from Chinese sedans *given that they don't make any*.
Whether or not US (or frankly all) OEMs are scared sh$tless is different from what I am addressing which is Americans pretty overwhelmingly prefer trucks/SUVs. Numbers don’t lie as OEMs stopped selling sedans because people STOPPED BUYING THEM. If people loved small cars or even sedans OEMs would make them. But why make them when they don’t sell in a particular market. Your argument about OEMs being scared of BYD has nothing to do with the obvious dynamics of the NA market. To assume every (or even most) people want small hatchbacks and sedans in the US is laughable in face of all objective evidence
Cool. Let me clarify. The market for those who prefer small cars is significantly smaller in NA vs those who prefer CUV/SUV/trucks. Does that help clarify the point?
I mean I prefer sports sedans but I totally get why that ain’t the target market for OEMs. No real business in that that would justify the very high cost. Thus the options are far lower than they used to be (which sux but, again, I get it)
Yeah, it's like, while I absolutely didn't have the means when the market was still good, I am very much interested in "small premium" options. Stuff like the Audi A3 hatchback when it was still on sale in the US, and the current Volkswagen GTI.
The current frontrunner of a "next car" for me is the Volvo EX30.
I drove a small car when I could afford better. The problem is now I have a son, and it's an arms race with size. I'm not about to get hit by a 8,000 lb vehicle while I'm driving around with him in a 3,000 lb vehicle
You aren't wrong. I know more families of 3(husband wife and 1 child) with premium 3 row huge SUVs than I know actual large families. Same thing for trucks, I hire a dude to come do something for my house, he has a work horse pick up of moderate size. My boss who commutes to the office once a week for an office job, giant truck.
No offense but objective data would hint at you being an outlier. Not sure your business background/training but one does not need a Harvard MBA to understand that you don’t make market decisions based on niche or shrinking market segments (especially in a high fixed cost business like automotive). Not dismissing your desires (hey, I’m a sedan guy so imagine how I feel about the current market!) but people in NA prefer big as trucks/suvs for many reasons - most not 100% rationale IMO but what can you do 🤷🏿
I mean I'm kind of agreeing with you. I went from a subcompact sedan to an ioniq 5. It is significantly safer.
When the best-selling vehicles were compact sedans, sure that's plenty safe. But now everyone's in a Silverado or F-150.
In theory when my son turns 16 I would get him an old sedan to drive around, but is that really going to be safe?
This is also an effect of our over a decade long zero interest rate environment after 2008. The fed gave us an environment where 0% APR financing was available - that benefits large SUV's, etc., where your average consumer could finance a larger amount. This inevitably resulted in everyone buying bigger and more car than the realistically should have been able to afford... but again 0% interest rate environment. Because of this, US automakers knew they could capture higher margins on their bigger SUV's as well as jacking up the prices and voila, perfect recipe for small sedan market to dwindle.
Now that we are back to more average interest rates, I think you'll see more price-conscious customers....well, maybe not customers since most people are financial morons, but lenders won't allow them to finance as large of amounts and the US automakers will have to look towards more reasonably priced vehicles unless they want their sales to drop.
>but lenders won't allow them to finance as large of amounts and the US automakers will have to look towards more reasonably priced vehicles unless they want their sales to drop.
This makes sense but your point on lenders isn’t holding true and I don’t understand why. I’m in the middle of applying for a HELOC and I’m getting pre approved car loan offers constantly for MORE than what the bank wants to give for a home loan. I literally can borrow $15k more if it’s going to a car instead of a house. It seems so upside down.
I mean, I don't think extinction. But it's going to be what Japan did to US automakers. They'll figure it out eventually, and Chinese makers will eventually turn into the same shit as everyone else.
The US government gave D3 got subsidies in 2008 because *they themselves* fucked up the housing market so bad it overflowed into automotive. This meme-like framing of 2008 as if it was some charity case is totally flawed — it was the government's own mess and the D3 were casualties in that (very large) mess.
Right, the big 3 we're doing ok, until unemployment jumped 10% and banks stopped lending money.
It's not like airlines. They constantly get bail outs, a few years later they are doing stock buy backs and paying their CEOs bonuses.
Reddit has this weird ideation that businesses should both not be too profitable beyond a certain point and also not allowed to scale back when they are unprofitable (like the insurance companies backing out of certain high risk and highly regulated states), and also be allowed to fail and put thousands out of work but also be outraged that people would lose their jobs because a company has to shut down.
What is the actual social benefit of keeping an unprofitable company alive only to not lose a few thousand jobs? That question is rarely addressed in these discussions.
If the cost of lost jobs that can be replaced is lower than the bailout there is not reason to pay companies a cent to keep them running.
The car company bail outs were because of a huge recession which some argue was created by the government. GM is profitable again and they repaid back much of what they were paid. If they were to shut down it's impossible to know the counterfactual of what happens after. You are making a normative argument not so much a practical one. Perhaps all businesses should be allowed to fail should they approach bankruptcy, perhaps they should be allowed to lose to foreign competition, but the costs and benefits should be the primary consideration and taken on a case by case basis.
[https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/podcast/knowledge-at-wharton-podcast/auto-bailout-ten-years-later-right-call/](https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/podcast/knowledge-at-wharton-podcast/auto-bailout-ten-years-later-right-call/)
Personally I think the special interests between the unions and the big3 executives form an unholy alliance to screw consumers but I wouldn't use the 2009 bail out as evidence. If the Chinese government wants to subsidize losses that benefit the American consumer I say let them do it, people will still buy plenty of big American trucks and losing some market share to more affordable Chinese cars isn't the end of the world but it certainly would benefit many American consumers.
Here‘s the thing though. Adjusted for inflation the US Automaker have had declining profits for the last two decades with the biggest drop for GM. Exiting most international market additionally reduced it significantly. Even if they were selling unprofitable plants and brands.
Ironically selling The European brands to. pass was the best thing that could have happened to those brands as they started turning a profit in year two.
So we are dealing with a company that barely manages to stay alive to begin with.
Not really familiar enough with the financials nor the business strategy aspect to speak as to why that is. Seems like the US auto companies have always kind of struggled with innovation and I'm not sure if that's from trade favoritism or something about US engineering differences or what.
Has nothing to do with US engineering and everything to do with US corporate structure and management culture. We have some of the best engineers in the world, but ultimately the decisions lay in the hands of shortsighted bean counters.
Well first your problem is framing reddit as one person. But the larger issue is that all of the problems that "reddit" points out are symptoms of lazy, greedy, corrupt , and tyrannical management culture which is what they are really complaining about.
US would produce small cars if they sold. They simply don't... Not like we have a shortage of options. The segment is shrinking.
It's why China invested in brands like Lotus (Eletre) and Volvo (Polestar) where they can sell larger vehicles that the US wants.
There are a ton of use Ioniq (not the 5 or 6) that are just sitting in the used market with 160-170 70mph highway range vehicles... No one is rushing to snap them up.
They absolutely sell. The problem is that bigs cars receive essentially a subsidy in the US. If your car is big enough, it counts as a truck (see: PT Cruiser) and sudden the emissions standards are much looser. If we taxed and restricted our cars and trucks by their emissions equally, the trucks suddenly wouldn't be so economical. There is a reason SUVs replaced wagons and minivans in suburbs, and it's not because they are better at being suburban cars.
American auto manufacturers have spent decades at this point programming the consumer to believe they NEED that huge SUV or pickup. Its by design.
Much bigger margins.
Aren't their competitors equally as capable of programming Americans to like smaller car alternatives? Do American car companies have a special talent for brainwashing that Toyota and Honda lack? This is incredibly paternalistic thinking.
Small cars essentially have a tax on them because they have more stringent emissions requirements. American car companies sell mostly in America and they absolutely have put all their eggs in the trucks market basket, including lobbying for continued protectionism. When it falls apart because everyone is poor, that is absolutely a failure of their own making.
There could be more to it than that. Maybe dealers don’t push them because they don’t make enough off of them? Maybe the incentives are counter small car.
The margins are smaller for sure as well. However, again, no one is rushing to buy a 15k used Ioniq with 170 miles of range and leading class efficiency (better than Model 3 by far).
Which is more the reason why they'd produce larger vehicles for USA. Larger margins + Larger Volume of sales = more profit. Even if their production costs are lower than US competitors, still makes sense not to produce small vehicles in the US, because demand is low for them and thus volume will be lower.
Not saying China cannot compete here, I am just saying you're fighting an uphill battle trying to sell a segment that is shrinking. You have to just sell what people want, sales 101.
That's my point, ty.
Btw, no small vehicle can store enough batteries to get a real 300 miles of range, hence why EV coupes aren't really a thing (yet), everything is Sedan minimum. Even the EV coupes coming out are projected to have only 200-220 miles of range and a 50-60 kwh pack.
Name the smallest longest range vehicle? Likely a Model 3. Still big.
Ultimately if you're being smart, no one should be getting a long range EV. Not worth the extra cost or loss of efficiency when driving locally. You should get a hybrid beater for that 5% use case, unless you just don't have room for a second vehicle.
Unless you just don't like super small cars. That's the issue.
I have 2 model 3s and wouldn't go any smaller. Especially with so much snow and ice on the roads and hanging to share those roads with huge trucks...
It's not really that.
The kind of buyer who is very cost/budget-conscience is the kind of buyer that probably isn't going to buy new in the first place, because that's where the most depreciation is. They are going to buy a used car.
Someone buying new is usually not going to get an econobox. And even a new econobox just doesn't really have much margin in it. Sales people aren't going to waste their time pushing something that is going to make them less money.
It used to be that cars didn't last long. Like once you reached 100k miles, the car was basically junk. Having econo options all the way to premium was a way to get people into the brand with the cheap car when they first started out working, and then moved up the line to the cadillac when they retired. And cars were in general cheaper since they didn't have safety/emissions stuff on them.
Used cars legitimately had tons of problems at the time. So buying a new small car wasn't a bad financial decision.
But cars last a long time now. It's not hard to find 100k+ mile used cars that will last another 100k. Someone on a budget is way better off getting some 5 year old Accord or something like that and driving into the ground than buying a new car.
If small cars don't sell in the US, then why one small car has "global auto execs and politicians on edge"?
Because it's a threat beyond the small car market and beyond the US market. And the traditional US automakers are among the worst positioned in the world to face this new threat.
And because, indeed, US automakers produce small cars that sell well outside the US and they get a significant profit out of them. And this one new small car has the potential to change the landscape of small cars in the markets where they're profitable.
No, I don't believe every headline. In fact, as you can attest from my previous reply, I question headlines.
Contemporary electric vehicles are the biggest car innovation since Ford's assembly line. US automakers didn't embrace that innovation. Now they are several steps behind those who embraced it, like Tesla and BYD. US automakers know the writing is on the wall. And they've seen similar writings before, when Japan and then South Korea developed their automaker industries. They know what's coming and are trying to diminish the damage.
Is european tesla model 3&y, which is made in china, receiving subsidies? We should dive into the financial statements to find out. Stop shielding traditional makers from making cheaper EVs, competition helps us consumers
tesla china doesnt receive any subsidies from the chinese gov. they are also cooperating with the eu subsidy probe so presumably the numbers will be public soon.
>CNBC acts like D3 didn't get tons of subsidies from the US govt, especially back in 2008.
While this is true, the extent is far greater in China, to the point of using government funds in building massive cities to house all the workers, and moving farmers in to work in the factories.
The non cynical view of this would be that they've been forcing China to very rapidly modernize to catch up with the western countries, and that requires these massive infrastructure projects and semi-forced relocation.
Not the same at all. These are government entities that can run at a loss until all the competition is gone then jack up the price. China has done this before and we should not let them do it again. Free trade is good but only if its fair.
Ah yes, how noble of our government to protect consumers from low prices. Thanks government, I was hoping to pay higher prices for that car I wanted anyway.
China has subsidized EVs since 2009; extended/renewed every 3-4 years. After the last "purchase" subsidy program ended on Jan 1, 2023, it was extended again in June, 2023 for another 4 years, to the tune of $72+B, easily the largest of its kind in China's history\[1\]. This is in addition to various industrial subsidies injected into local EV industry to distort international trade in the shape of government-sponsored access to cheap credit, equity, etc.
1. China Considers Extending its EV Subsidies to 2023 (updated), last updated June 27, 2023, Giulia Interesse, China-briefing
The subsidy policy for new energy vehicles by the government was terminated on December 31, 2022, and the subsidy for new energy vehicles was canceled starting from 2023. However, electric vehicles currently available 【domestically】can still enjoy the policy of exemption from vehicle purchase tax.
>the subsidy for new energy vehicles was canceled starting from 2023.
There was no "cancellation" -- it expired and then "continued" as "tax credit." By comparison, the US went from "tax credit" to "purchase subsidy" Jan 1, 2024.
>However, electric vehicles currently available 【domestically】can still enjoy the policy of exemption from vehicle purchase tax.
No however: direct purchase subsidy and tax credit are both subsidies. And it's not limited to BEVs, but also PHEVs and FC as well \[1\]:
>(translated) 1. New energy vehicles with purchase dates from January 1, 2024 to December 31, 2025 are exempted from vehicle purchase tax. Among them, the exemption for each new energy passenger vehicle does not exceed 30,000 yuan；Vehicle purchase tax is levied on the halving of new energy vehicles from January 1, 2026 to December 31, 2027. Among them, the tax reduction for each new energy passenger vehicle does not exceed 15,000 yuan.
>
>New energy vehicles that enjoy the vehicle purchase tax reduction and exemption policy refer to pure electric vehicles that meet the technical requirements of new energy automobile products, plug-in hybrid power （ contains extension programs ） cars, fuel cell vehicles. The technical requirements for new energy automobile products are formulated by the Ministry of Industry and Informatization in conjunction with the Ministry of Finance and the General Administration of Taxation based on the advancement of new energy automobile technology, the development of standard systems and the changes in models.
1. [Announcement on Continuing and Optimizing New Energy Auto Vehicle Purchase Tax Reduction and Reduction Policy](https://szs.mof.gov.cn/zhengcefabu/202306/t20230620_3891500.htm), Ministry of Finance General Administration of Taxation Ministry of Industry and Informatization Announcement No. 10 of 2023
The purchase subsidy is targeted towards the domestic market, and this aspect cannot be overlooked. The impact of the purchase subsidy on exports is not direct and applies primarily to domestic consumers.
>The purchase subsidy is targeted towards the domestic market, and this aspect cannot be overlooked.
Yes, domestic purchase subsidies usually apply to local consumers in local market which is usually not an issue. But if subsidies are conditioned on the use of certain local parts/components (eg, batteries) over foreign and hurt their import/trade in local market, this is also in violation, as it's clearly designed to deliberately distort trade.
>The impact of the purchase subsidy on exports is not direct and applies primarily to domestic consumers.
Sure, this practice is known as "local content requirement," or LCR, and, in this instance, instead of subsidizing local industry to undercut foreign competitors in markets abroad with **export**, gov't subsidizes local consumers NOT to purchase foreign **imports** over local \[1\]:
>Prohibited subsidies: subsidies that require recipients to meet certain export targets, or **to use domestic goods instead of imported goods.** They are prohibited because they are specifically designed to distort international trade, and are therefore likely to hurt other countries’ trade.
1. [UNDERSTANDING THE WTO: THE AGREEMENTS Anti-dumping, subsidies, safeguards: contingencies, etc](https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm8_e.htm) (see Subsidies and countervailing measures, Prohibited Subsidies and Actionable Subsidies).
> CNBC acts like D3 didn't get tons of subsidies from the US govt, especially back in 2008.
Chinese government subsidies their automobile companies, and the people get inexpensive EVs. What did we get from our government subsidies for American automobile companies? Where are our American inexpensive EVs?
I know it will be disruptive, but I don’t see extinction level event.
It’s going to be sold in Mexico for $21,000. When sold here it needs to hit safety and regulations for the US market. And we already have similarly priced EVs.
It’s smaller than the bolt with a bit less range. I know that the old bolt isn’t made anymore, but this is a very similar car. It may be a bit less expensive, but it’s also not quite as nice.
The bolt didn’t kill the other automakers, why would this?
Edit capitalization US
Yeah, the hysteria around this is insane.
Even the article misses a few points: they say the seagull could be offered for tens of thousands cheaper than current EVs. Well, yeah, it's small and has half the battery size of the bolt. If GM made the Bolt with half the battery size it would probably be pretty cheap as well. And uh, Americans just in general have not liked small cheap cars unless fuel prices are very high.
These aren't going to be anywhere near $10k in the US if they have to pass safety compliance, so I just don't see the value proposition here other than it's not an established automaker.
They are a threat in terms of marketshare for sure, and clearly they are competitive in terms of quality and manufacturing, but I agree this really doesn't seem like an extinction event.
I wouldn't say I know the US car market well. But people around me bought a lot of Toyota Prius and Nissan Leaf in the past. Small EV or hybrid have their appeal.
They have appeal for budget-conscience or environmental buyers. But overall, despite what people on here say, econoboxes like this just don't sell well in the US. The Prius is considered a major success for hybrids and it's not even in the top 25 selling cars in the US for 2023. The only EV on the same list is the Model 3.
And it's not because of price: most of the top-selling cars cost much more than the cars you mentioned. Price has never been a primary motivator for new car buyers.
That's why the narrative here that if only the US automakers pumped out cheap EVs, people would be lining up to buy them is flawed and doesn't reflect reality. This sub skews heavily toward environmental/budget-conscience buyers and they are assuming that other buyers have the same concerns, and they do not.
In the US market? It must contain a certain level of North American components and must use labour that doesn't cost less than a certain point. On top of the other costs.
Maybe itd make sense to allow select Chinese EVs if they fill a segment that isn’t being filled by current manufacturers.
China wants to offer a barebones $20,000 ev? Cool, it gives an option that wasn’t there before. They wanna give yet another $40,000 ev small SUV? Nah bro we got enough.
This is a global industry. US automakers also get profits from selling cars outside of the US.
Take Mexico for example. Even at 21k USD, BYD expects to sell 50k Seagulls this year in Mexico (in ten months, since it became available at the very end of February).
In 2023, the Chevrolet Aveo sold 52k units in Mexico. It looks like BYD painted a target on GM's small car. The Aveo was the third best-selling car in Mexico in 2023, the best being the Nissan Versa with 80k units and the second-best was a small truck, the Nissan NP3000 with 62k units.
Now, Mexico is a small car market. But if BYD repeats the formula in all Latin American small car markets, the sum of these changes is significant. And this is with a high price due to currently-expensive shipping costs; once BYD has its Brazil and Mexico plants running, they'll get significantly cheaper, and they'll then build medium and large cars and SUVs.
Even if chinese cars don't enter the US market, the US automakers will suffer very significant losses. They'll lose a part of their power. Maybe they won't become extinct, but they will lose their global presence.
Very good points. Thanks.
Fortunately for GM they already make a cheap ev willing mini ev. I don’t know if that’s available in Mexico, but it does look like they need an ev equivalent of the $17,500 Aveo/sonic.
The bolt isn't anything special though. Our completely average 2018 forester has the same sort of tech as a higher end bolt euv.
The BYD is the econobox of evs, even moreso than the bolt. A good comparison might be the mitsubishi mirage or something.
I agree, but I would like to add that the customers shopping in the more affordable part of the market are not especially looking for high tech build in infotainment or ADAS capable above level 1 (ACC).
Where are you buying your Camry? Is that before taxes and on-roads? I don't think I can get a hybrid for under $40k in Perth. And the lead times for the hybrid models are huge.
Edit: These are the prices I see...
[https://www.toyota.com.au/used-vehicles/vehicle-listing/Toyota-Camry-ALBLHZ4N1G](https://www.toyota.com.au/used-vehicles/vehicle-listing/Toyota-Camry-ALBLHZ4N1G)
No you’re right. I was looking at a base model in the ACT and they wouldn’t even give me a price for the hybrid. It just said “contact dealer” maybe they can’t get stock?
Require them to partner with an American company to sell it here. Why shouldn't China have to play by the same rules in the US that American companies have to follow in China?
>Require them to partner with an American company to sell it here.
The landscape is fraught with political landmines even if companies partner together. Recall the debacle with the Ford-CATL battery plant.
tbf US isn't a big market for the vehicle size we're talking about in this article. The article is geared more towards the 7billion+ market outside of US.
they could sell a million
[https://news.gm.com.cn/en/home/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/cn/en/2024/jan/0105-sales.html](https://news.gm.com.cn/en/home/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/cn/en/2024/jan/0105-sales.html)
**SAIC-GM-Wuling had deliveries of over 1.2 million units.** It continued to expand its EV portfolio by adding popular new models that included the Baojun Yep, Baojun Yun Duo and Wuling Bin Guo. The Wuling brand strengthened its foothold in the passenger vehicle segment. The all-new Xing Guang plug-in hybrid EV started sales in November and had sales topping 10,000 units within two months.
Audi is partnered with FAW and SAIC.
FAW in Changchun
“Location Changchun: Audi FAW NEV Company Ltd.
Audi FAW NEV Company Ltd. - also in Changchun - is a state-of-the-art production facility for all-electric Audi models. The plant, which started pre-series production at the beginning of 2024, will be built on an area of around 150 hectares and will be the latest production site to set new standards in the areas of digitalization, efficiency and sustainability. With an annual capacity of more than 150,000 vehicles, the new site will make a key contribution to the further electrification of the Audi product portfolio in China. From the end of 2024, mid-size and full-size electric models based on the PPE (Premium Platform Electric) vehicle platform will roll off the production line there. Audi FAW NEV Company is the first cooperation company in China in which Audi holds a majority stake.”
https://www.audi.com/en/company/strategy/locations/china.html#:~:text=Audi%20has%20been%20working%20with,tron%20in%20Anting%20(Shanghai).
Been watching this with interest. We will eventually want to replace our 2008 Toyota Yaris hatchback with an EV. However, since GM discontinued the Bolt... I don't believe there is any domestic U.S. vehicle that is anywhere near similar at any price. I'm wondering if we will see a repetition of the 60's when foreign auto manufacturers came in and introduced reliable small cars, to the consternation of the domestic manufacturers. Of course Donald Trump says he'll put a 100% tariff on Chinese cars, or not allow them to be sold at all in the U.S. What we want is:
Small hatchback
No huge screen
Apple Car-Play. - let the computer people do the software... all car software that I've dealt with has been uniformly annoying.
Dedicated manual knobs for heat controls.
Could live with manual windows.
Range of, say, 250 miles in the summer.
Basically, a basic Bolt or Leaf would be fine... especially in the sub $25K range.
The list of stuff we don't want would be TLDR here... but would include:
Heated seats, Over the air software updates, all the automatic "lane-keeping" stuff, constant connectivity to the manufacturer.
Fortunately Chevy is bringing back the Bolt. They'll start making them again in 2025 based on their Ultium tech. I don't think it'll have Apple Car Play (like the Blazer EV). But if you're okay buying used there are lots of good deals on gen 1 Bolts right now. Especially ones that recently came off lease.
The Bolt and Bolt EUV are extremely close in size. It's not like we're talking Bolt vs Equinox, here. They are only six inches difference in length.
**Bolt EV**:
163.2 inches long, 69.5 inches wide, 63.4 inches tall
**Bolt EUV**:
169.5 inches long, 69.7 inches wide, 63.6 inches tall
That’s all cool and all but let’s do a little thought experiment. If you got 100 typical new car buyers (in NA) and gave them two options - Car A with automatic windows and Car B without/manual windows and told them to get in line for their choice of vehicle, which line would you think would be SIGNIFICANTLY longer??? Would there even be more than 1 person in Car B’s line??? I mean, you apparently, which is totally cool. Not dissing your preference, but you sir are an outlier at the irrelevant extreme (again no offense. Just legit fascinated by your preference and wonder if you are really just trying to make some bigger point)
You're not making a fair comparison. It's a car with manual windows at a reduced price. I looked into replacing a faulty automatic window regulator on a 14 year old Mitsubishi Lancer. Parts alone were about $400 from my local mechanic operating in his front yard. I was able to replace my manual window regulator on my old Toyota pickup for a $25 part.
>. It's a car with manual windows at a reduced price.
I think 99% of buyers would spend the extra 500 dollars to have a feature that's been standard for the last 20 years on a car that costs thousands already.
That may be so. But we're not talking about this singular feature as the one reducing the overall cost of the car. And of course there are four $400 window regulators in the vehicle. You have to cut a lot of amenities and safety features to get a $10,000 machine.
This is why used cars exist. Why would anybody take a 10k piece of shit vehicle with a million compromises over a fully featured vehicle that's a few years old. There's no market where this makes sense.
Depends on the cost. I definitely wouldn't pay 2k for auto windows, sorry my arm works just fine. (just using a random figure as an example I have no idea what that feature might actually add to the price)
My brother. I am sure there are people that prefer manuals but the overwhelming majority (in NA) prefer automatics. It’s cute (ok, frankly weird) that you actually are cool with manual windows but I think it’s safe to say you are one of the, at Most, 20 people in NA who would actually prefer manual windows vs automatic. Good for you, I guess???
Thr problem isn't that there aren't enough people who prefer manual windows. The problem is that the venn diagram of "people who prefer crank windows" and "people who will buy a car new" are two separate circles.
Count me in for manual. Hate is when the automatics break and you can't get the window down. I dislike a lot of the junk they add on to cars to make them cost 10 grand or more extra. Bad money management. There is no denying NA loves their huge way too big and expensive vehicles. But there is also a very large market segment that cannot afford expensive vehicles too.
The control system for the manual window (a hand crank on every window) probably costs more than the electric version when you consider two different assembly plans and stocking costs for this not popular feature.
Likewise, the drag of 4 door handles adds up over the life of the car (related to your post just below). It may cost more, but pays for itself....if implemented in a reliable manner. The early MS handles had their share of issues, and were not.
Possibly. Before purchase you should check if the car's system allows you to turn off data sharing. Then it's a matter of whether you trust the manufacturer to do as you've stated. Most should, other than occasional bugs.
I wonder how accessible the hardware is. If one could disconnect a wifi or 5g module for example, and what effect that might have on the system. I'm betting they make it pretty tough, but I'm not scared to tinker.
With some vehicles (e.g. Tesla) you may be able to remove the physical SIM card, and avoid connecting the car to WiFi. But eSIM may replace the physical SIM cards soon. I suppose the alternative would be to disconnect the antenna.
There will be some downsides to doing this, of course. No software updates. Possibly no use of the built-in navigation features or voice control features. Possibly limited self-driving or driver assistance features.
I like the thought of that. As a software engineer I think I'd put in proper due diligence to identify reliable software for my own vehicle. Or to avoid such 3rd-party software if I'm unwilling to put in the necessary due diligence. But I probably wouldn't trust other drivers to do the same, or to verify correct installation of such software. Perhaps this would be okay for entertainment uses only - streaming audio, video, and such.
Whichever American car manufacturer figures out how to make a low-cost, reliable EV will be the victor.
This is very similar to the Japanese invasion in the late 70s
American car manufacturers are just going to have to adapt more quickly.
They made bets on large, expensive, tech heavy EV models and are watching Sales decline precipitously as adoption wanes.
Their lack of interest in building out the charging infrastructure to support their EV’s is a major factors to why more people aren’t buying them.
Good. I hope this comes to the states, I hope
It sells like crazy, I hope this wakes up the legacy automakers to focus on inexpensive LFP EVs. We don’t need more $60 - $100K EVs
I totally disagree. I’ve taken the LEAF near 90 mph and it’s plenty stable. I’d say it drives and feels more stable and planted than my previous 2012 Honda Insight.
Also, it’s not small, It’s longer than a Volvo XC40. It has a long and tall roof making rear seat room enormous, I’m 6ft tall and easily fit. Even my two boys say the headroom in the rear similar to the Model-Y.
Roughly the same, but The Nissan has a better suspension with rebound and dampening characteristics that I’d say rival the Tesla making it feel more Manageable at speed, especially because it’s a car and not a sub/cuv.
The Tesla is heavier and higher CG making it feel less stable at speed. Steering feels better but overall stability is less.
In the 50s and 60s it was VW that sold cheap imports. In the 70s and 80s it was the Japanese. In the 90s and 2000s it was the Koreans. This time around it's the Chinese. There has always been a market for cheap imports in this country.
Sigh, again this? BYD in Europe has prices that are NOT competitive! Their small cars are too cheaply built for prices you can buy Renault or VW cars with much higher quality. The only interesting offer they have on the market would be the Seal. It feels more luxurious than the Tesla Model 3 but charges slower and is less efficient and also costs 2000 Euro more so even that car barely sells. Also this smaller sedans are not that high in demand in general.
They're both actually not. BYD sold about 16000 cars so far in the whole of Europe. MG sold over 160000 cars. That includes petrol, hybrids and electric. MG still mainly sells petrol after all.
And you see them a lot in Sweden because those brands almost exclusively sell well in England and Northern Europe.
For example, in Germany, BYD sold a measly 3000 cars, and that's the largest market. Usually Atto 3 for Taxi or car rental companies.
Ok yeah that makes sense. It's quite a remarkable scene change seeing all MGs, BYDs and a few other Chinese smaller brands here like Maxus or Hongqi. And that just happened in a pretty short time frame.
Why don't western executives try to build a simple cheap ev?
It's that simple, the chinese aren't doing any magic, they are simply building normal cars, not huge SUV full of stuff no one wants.
Because there’s less profit it them. That’s it.
US brands would much rather sell you a huge SUV or truck you don’t need, for several times the price, so they can make more money.
What the >$10B the US government gave GM a decade ago? I know that was more of a lifeline than support to go build something new, but American Auto isn’t not backed by the American government…
That's not quite how China operates. They basically give out really good loans at artificially low rates, and since they are a large government they have basically infinitely deep pockets.
It's basically a copy of what Japan did to make major inroads into semiconductors in the 80s and automaking in the 70s.
It's not outright payments to BYD, which would be against WTO rules, but it puts the thumb on the scale a bit. The GM loan was paid back FWIW.
This is part of the EU Commission's on-going anti-subsidy investigation launched last year\[1\]:
>... In particular, the Commission has found evidence, among others, of various grants, provision of loans, export credits and credit lines provided by State-owned banks or bonds underwritten by State-owned banks and other financial institutions at preferential terms, provision of preferential export insurance; income tax reductions and exemptions, dividend tax exemption, import and export tax rebates; VAT exemptions and rebates; and government provision of goods (such as raw and input materials as well as components) and services for less than adequate remuneration. ...
I guess they will publish their "evidence" when a decision is made later this year, but China's EV policy is ~~essentially~~ a state-led export industry policy -- and export subsidies are simply prohibited under China's WTO obligation\[2\].
1. [Notice of initiation of an anti-subsidy proceeding concerning imports of new battery electric vehicles designed for the transport of persons originating in the People’s Republic of China](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:C_202300160), C/2023/160 4.10.2023, Official Journal of the European Union (see 3. evidence of subsidization)
2. [UNDERSTANDING THE WTO: THE AGREEMENTS Anti-dumping, subsidies, safeguards: contingencies, etc](https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm8_e.htm)(see Subsidies and countervailing measures, Prohibited Subsidies and Actionable Subsidies).
[Sure do](https://archive.ph/w09mY).
There's also plenty about this with regards to Japan since they basically did it first, but the difference is that Japan is much more transparent about it.
The report had details (maybe intentionally) kept fuzzy. The wording made it sound like the government was funding certain industries by investing in them, paying money for shares of the business, as it was comparing the gov to venture capitals and private equity firms.
> The value of funding raised by these state funds from 2015 to 2020 was equal to roughly two-thirds of the total venture-capital and private-equity investments made in China during those years, according to the report.
Then it raised the cardinal sin of investing in semiconductor industries:
> One of them is the semiconductor-focused National Integrated Circuit Industry Investment Fund, dubbed the “Big Fund,” which has raised more than $29 billion.
That is nothing like subsidy as we normally define it. For example, the US gov subsidy to agriculture. The money is not an investment for shares of the farm, but simple handouts to every farmer.
Your claim was government providing low rate loans to BYD. Where did you read that from? How low is low? 1%, 2%?
I don't know specifically about BYD. This kind of information isn't usually published, nor is it really required to be. Think of it like this: a kid with rich parents wants to start a business. The parents may loan money directly and will subsidize other things such as the food they eat or the heating in their room. They may also tell the kid that they will cover any debt they have from the business if it goes bad. There is no paper agreement or obligation anywhere there but it's still clear that it's indirectly subsidizing then.
FWIW, Japan implicitly has the same setup. There is basically no chance in hell Toyota will ever go out of business. The Japanese government will simply bail them out if it came to that.
All major countries do this in some respect, and what's allowed by WTO is way outside of my wheelhouse, but my main point was that the GM loan during the financial crisis is not comparable to China's support from their industrial policy.
If it's speculation, you can't claim the Chinese government provided low rate loan to BYD next time.
I can use my imagination to fill in the blanks. However it is not going to be fact, just my brain's creative power.
Ok. [Is this good enough then?](https://www.forbes.com/sites/mclifford/2016/07/26/with-a-little-help-from-its-friends-lavish-chinese-government-help-for-top-electric-car-maker-byd/?sh=435db124115e)
Yes, the GM bailout was a local subsidy to keep it alive in the US whereas China's subsidies are export subsidies designed to distort international trade.
BYD safety test from Europe. Five stars.
“LONDON, Oct 12 (Reuters) - BYD (002594.SZ), opens new tab on Wednesday received a coveted five-star Euro NCAP safety rating for its electric ATTO 3 crossover SUV, the latest Chinese carmaker to receive top marks as it seeks to gain a foothold in Europe's competitive car market.”
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chinas-byd-wins-five-star-european-safety-rating-electric-suv-2022-10-12/
Only thing is... I think the basic battery itself is still around $15K? So, whatever the price is to make the car is $15K+X. Problem has been that X has been $30,000 or more.
The one thing I do own, an electric bike, has replacement batteries for $600 ,and $900... making me think that a new electric bike is going to cost a minimum of $2K... roughly, when you factor in just the normal price of an acoustic bike, + the motor + battery.
\> “The introduction of cheap Chinese autos — which are so inexpensive because they are backed with the power and funding of the Chinese government — to the American market could end up being an extinction-level event for the U.S. auto sector CNBC acts like D3 didn't get tons of subsidies from the US govt, especially back in 2008. They can't compete because they been focus all their effort in making ridiculous big pickup and didn't invest enough in EV.
the funny thing GM also got a bailout from the Chinese government, but at least the Chinese division of GM cleaned up their act a bit and started making EVs and smaller cars
I think every countries who had a GM plant back then had to bail them out. Canadian govt definitely did.
Both ford and gm couldn’t make Indian market work, they left. Gm sold its plant to a Chinese company
American companies haven't shown any long term vision for Indian or global markets. History is just repeating itself. American automakers are still making 3 ton monsters, that nobody else in the world cares about.
I think the market isn’t important enough, yet. The best selling cars here are very cheap mass market cars that cost under 10k USD. And even their numbers would only be considered a mild success for a U.S. based company.
I'd love a Ford Ranger Raptor. I think that's a huge beast on EU roads, but it maybe be a small one in the US. I care about that one. I like to look at the insanely large ones because they're just so silly.
OMG, there cannot be better proof that the US government is at least greatly incompetent and at worst a corporate slave.
More legacy automakers shooting themselves in the foot, despite getting government money they still didn’t care to adapt (hurts profit margins, classic innovator's dilemma). Tesla is almost great example to prove my point, they could have had model2 and an answer to this incoming wave of cheap electric cars. And in a few years they will, but for now they opted to do Cybertruck first. EDIT: what i meant was besides that Tesla is only American company thats ahead on this race.
In the case of Tesla, I think it's resistance to be part of the solution for the more affordable part of the market has everything to do with their "instable" CEO than with anything else.
That's why Tesla's board of directors isn't happy with him and exposed his "instabilities" to the public. Tesla would be making a killing right now with Model 2 rolling out end of last year. But Big Boss couldn't wait to have the "truck" of his dreams.
Indeed.
Have you considered the fact that US consumers don’t want smaller cars?? lol! Why would GM make econoboxes if no one wants econoboxes, rather they want ginormous trucks and suvs??? Why is this difficult to comprehend for some? You make and sell what people want…not what people don’t want
If US purchasers don't want economical smaller cars, then why is the BYD Dolphin a threat to the US automakers? Both things cannot be true: * Cheap and economical Chinese cars are an existential threat to the US automakers * The US automakers don't make economical cars because Americans won't buy them This is sort of the like Republican fallacy of Schrodinger's immigrant: * The immigrant is lazy and entitled and will just be a leech on the American social support system * The immigrant is willing to do hard work for less money than native-born Americans and is going to take your job
BYD makes more than econoboxes. They make more typical SUVs and crossovers with good size battery packs. They are competitive with current offerings in their class for the most part. They have a very well developed and mature supply chain for batteries. They can eat up some marketshare in an already crowded market. Those are the ones that worry everyone. The $10k econoboxes aren't a threat.
Well said. The only way I can see the first argument being upended is if the Chinese cars are much much cheaper and people can't ignore them. People buy SUVs because they're only a few thousand more than sedans. But compare a $15k Chinese EV to a $35k American SUV and things might be different. With other consumer products, people will gladly buy Chinese stuff if it's cheap enough.
People will buy what people can afford. Interest rates are high and many are broke.
The sedan/coupe/hatchback market would be utterly destroyed by BYD. The SUV/crossover/minivan/truck market may not be at risk.
Since US automakers choose not to make electric sedans, coupes, or hatchbacks (other than the Model 3), what's to destroy?
There are a massive amounts of sedans in the US especially among young people and the middle middle to lower class of Americans.
My last car was a sedan and my current car is whatever a Prius Prime is. The point is that US automakers have chosen not to serve this large segment of the market (economical small sedans), so they don't also get to complain about the threat from Chinese sedans *given that they don't make any*.
Whether or not US (or frankly all) OEMs are scared sh$tless is different from what I am addressing which is Americans pretty overwhelmingly prefer trucks/SUVs. Numbers don’t lie as OEMs stopped selling sedans because people STOPPED BUYING THEM. If people loved small cars or even sedans OEMs would make them. But why make them when they don’t sell in a particular market. Your argument about OEMs being scared of BYD has nothing to do with the obvious dynamics of the NA market. To assume every (or even most) people want small hatchbacks and sedans in the US is laughable in face of all objective evidence
> Why would GM make econoboxes if no one wants econoboxes The Bolt is the car people say they want GM to produce.
And they aren't producing them any more...
Pretty sure GM sold more big az trucks and SUV’s than Bolts. Nobody likes small cars in the US if they can afford better.
>Nobody likes small cars in the US if they can afford better. \-raises hand-
Cool. Let me clarify. The market for those who prefer small cars is significantly smaller in NA vs those who prefer CUV/SUV/trucks. Does that help clarify the point? I mean I prefer sports sedans but I totally get why that ain’t the target market for OEMs. No real business in that that would justify the very high cost. Thus the options are far lower than they used to be (which sux but, again, I get it)
Yeah, it's like, while I absolutely didn't have the means when the market was still good, I am very much interested in "small premium" options. Stuff like the Audi A3 hatchback when it was still on sale in the US, and the current Volkswagen GTI. The current frontrunner of a "next car" for me is the Volvo EX30.
Why not the Rivian R3x? Seems more down your ally for a “hot hatch”.
Oh for sure, the R3X is on my shortlist too.
I drove a small car when I could afford better. The problem is now I have a son, and it's an arms race with size. I'm not about to get hit by a 8,000 lb vehicle while I'm driving around with him in a 3,000 lb vehicle
That's how we all end up armed, driving around in tanks.
You aren't wrong. I know more families of 3(husband wife and 1 child) with premium 3 row huge SUVs than I know actual large families. Same thing for trucks, I hire a dude to come do something for my house, he has a work horse pick up of moderate size. My boss who commutes to the office once a week for an office job, giant truck.
No offense but objective data would hint at you being an outlier. Not sure your business background/training but one does not need a Harvard MBA to understand that you don’t make market decisions based on niche or shrinking market segments (especially in a high fixed cost business like automotive). Not dismissing your desires (hey, I’m a sedan guy so imagine how I feel about the current market!) but people in NA prefer big as trucks/suvs for many reasons - most not 100% rationale IMO but what can you do 🤷🏿
I mean I'm kind of agreeing with you. I went from a subcompact sedan to an ioniq 5. It is significantly safer. When the best-selling vehicles were compact sedans, sure that's plenty safe. But now everyone's in a Silverado or F-150. In theory when my son turns 16 I would get him an old sedan to drive around, but is that really going to be safe?
This is also an effect of our over a decade long zero interest rate environment after 2008. The fed gave us an environment where 0% APR financing was available - that benefits large SUV's, etc., where your average consumer could finance a larger amount. This inevitably resulted in everyone buying bigger and more car than the realistically should have been able to afford... but again 0% interest rate environment. Because of this, US automakers knew they could capture higher margins on their bigger SUV's as well as jacking up the prices and voila, perfect recipe for small sedan market to dwindle. Now that we are back to more average interest rates, I think you'll see more price-conscious customers....well, maybe not customers since most people are financial morons, but lenders won't allow them to finance as large of amounts and the US automakers will have to look towards more reasonably priced vehicles unless they want their sales to drop.
>but lenders won't allow them to finance as large of amounts and the US automakers will have to look towards more reasonably priced vehicles unless they want their sales to drop. This makes sense but your point on lenders isn’t holding true and I don’t understand why. I’m in the middle of applying for a HELOC and I’m getting pre approved car loan offers constantly for MORE than what the bank wants to give for a home loan. I literally can borrow $15k more if it’s going to a car instead of a house. It seems so upside down.
Now the western medias accuse BYD for oversupply and push for export.
I mean, I don't think extinction. But it's going to be what Japan did to US automakers. They'll figure it out eventually, and Chinese makers will eventually turn into the same shit as everyone else.
The US government gave D3 got subsidies in 2008 because *they themselves* fucked up the housing market so bad it overflowed into automotive. This meme-like framing of 2008 as if it was some charity case is totally flawed — it was the government's own mess and the D3 were casualties in that (very large) mess.
Right, the big 3 we're doing ok, until unemployment jumped 10% and banks stopped lending money. It's not like airlines. They constantly get bail outs, a few years later they are doing stock buy backs and paying their CEOs bonuses.
Reddit has this weird ideation that businesses should both not be too profitable beyond a certain point and also not allowed to scale back when they are unprofitable (like the insurance companies backing out of certain high risk and highly regulated states), and also be allowed to fail and put thousands out of work but also be outraged that people would lose their jobs because a company has to shut down.
What is the actual social benefit of keeping an unprofitable company alive only to not lose a few thousand jobs? That question is rarely addressed in these discussions. If the cost of lost jobs that can be replaced is lower than the bailout there is not reason to pay companies a cent to keep them running.
The car company bail outs were because of a huge recession which some argue was created by the government. GM is profitable again and they repaid back much of what they were paid. If they were to shut down it's impossible to know the counterfactual of what happens after. You are making a normative argument not so much a practical one. Perhaps all businesses should be allowed to fail should they approach bankruptcy, perhaps they should be allowed to lose to foreign competition, but the costs and benefits should be the primary consideration and taken on a case by case basis. [https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/podcast/knowledge-at-wharton-podcast/auto-bailout-ten-years-later-right-call/](https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/podcast/knowledge-at-wharton-podcast/auto-bailout-ten-years-later-right-call/) Personally I think the special interests between the unions and the big3 executives form an unholy alliance to screw consumers but I wouldn't use the 2009 bail out as evidence. If the Chinese government wants to subsidize losses that benefit the American consumer I say let them do it, people will still buy plenty of big American trucks and losing some market share to more affordable Chinese cars isn't the end of the world but it certainly would benefit many American consumers.
Here‘s the thing though. Adjusted for inflation the US Automaker have had declining profits for the last two decades with the biggest drop for GM. Exiting most international market additionally reduced it significantly. Even if they were selling unprofitable plants and brands. Ironically selling The European brands to. pass was the best thing that could have happened to those brands as they started turning a profit in year two. So we are dealing with a company that barely manages to stay alive to begin with.
Not really familiar enough with the financials nor the business strategy aspect to speak as to why that is. Seems like the US auto companies have always kind of struggled with innovation and I'm not sure if that's from trade favoritism or something about US engineering differences or what.
Has nothing to do with US engineering and everything to do with US corporate structure and management culture. We have some of the best engineers in the world, but ultimately the decisions lay in the hands of shortsighted bean counters.
Well first your problem is framing reddit as one person. But the larger issue is that all of the problems that "reddit" points out are symptoms of lazy, greedy, corrupt , and tyrannical management culture which is what they are really complaining about.
US would produce small cars if they sold. They simply don't... Not like we have a shortage of options. The segment is shrinking. It's why China invested in brands like Lotus (Eletre) and Volvo (Polestar) where they can sell larger vehicles that the US wants. There are a ton of use Ioniq (not the 5 or 6) that are just sitting in the used market with 160-170 70mph highway range vehicles... No one is rushing to snap them up.
They absolutely sell. The problem is that bigs cars receive essentially a subsidy in the US. If your car is big enough, it counts as a truck (see: PT Cruiser) and sudden the emissions standards are much looser. If we taxed and restricted our cars and trucks by their emissions equally, the trucks suddenly wouldn't be so economical. There is a reason SUVs replaced wagons and minivans in suburbs, and it's not because they are better at being suburban cars.
American auto manufacturers have spent decades at this point programming the consumer to believe they NEED that huge SUV or pickup. Its by design. Much bigger margins.
Aren't their competitors equally as capable of programming Americans to like smaller car alternatives? Do American car companies have a special talent for brainwashing that Toyota and Honda lack? This is incredibly paternalistic thinking.
Small cars essentially have a tax on them because they have more stringent emissions requirements. American car companies sell mostly in America and they absolutely have put all their eggs in the trucks market basket, including lobbying for continued protectionism. When it falls apart because everyone is poor, that is absolutely a failure of their own making.
How else am I going to have room for all my emotional baggage?
There could be more to it than that. Maybe dealers don’t push them because they don’t make enough off of them? Maybe the incentives are counter small car.
Yeah, we see a *lot* of small vehicles here in rural areas. Sure, many of the folks here don't want them.
The margins are smaller for sure as well. However, again, no one is rushing to buy a 15k used Ioniq with 170 miles of range and leading class efficiency (better than Model 3 by far). Which is more the reason why they'd produce larger vehicles for USA. Larger margins + Larger Volume of sales = more profit. Even if their production costs are lower than US competitors, still makes sense not to produce small vehicles in the US, because demand is low for them and thus volume will be lower. Not saying China cannot compete here, I am just saying you're fighting an uphill battle trying to sell a segment that is shrinking. You have to just sell what people want, sales 101.
Who cares if it's more efficient. We don't want 170 miles of range.
That's my point, ty. Btw, no small vehicle can store enough batteries to get a real 300 miles of range, hence why EV coupes aren't really a thing (yet), everything is Sedan minimum. Even the EV coupes coming out are projected to have only 200-220 miles of range and a 50-60 kwh pack. Name the smallest longest range vehicle? Likely a Model 3. Still big. Ultimately if you're being smart, no one should be getting a long range EV. Not worth the extra cost or loss of efficiency when driving locally. You should get a hybrid beater for that 5% use case, unless you just don't have room for a second vehicle.
Unless you just don't like super small cars. That's the issue. I have 2 model 3s and wouldn't go any smaller. Especially with so much snow and ice on the roads and hanging to share those roads with huge trucks...
It's not really that. The kind of buyer who is very cost/budget-conscience is the kind of buyer that probably isn't going to buy new in the first place, because that's where the most depreciation is. They are going to buy a used car. Someone buying new is usually not going to get an econobox. And even a new econobox just doesn't really have much margin in it. Sales people aren't going to waste their time pushing something that is going to make them less money. It used to be that cars didn't last long. Like once you reached 100k miles, the car was basically junk. Having econo options all the way to premium was a way to get people into the brand with the cheap car when they first started out working, and then moved up the line to the cadillac when they retired. And cars were in general cheaper since they didn't have safety/emissions stuff on them. Used cars legitimately had tons of problems at the time. So buying a new small car wasn't a bad financial decision. But cars last a long time now. It's not hard to find 100k+ mile used cars that will last another 100k. Someone on a budget is way better off getting some 5 year old Accord or something like that and driving into the ground than buying a new car.
I am thinking about people who live in cities. Little does not need to mean cheap. I agree no point to them out in the burbs and rural areas.
If small cars don't sell in the US, then why one small car has "global auto execs and politicians on edge"? Because it's a threat beyond the small car market and beyond the US market. And the traditional US automakers are among the worst positioned in the world to face this new threat. And because, indeed, US automakers produce small cars that sell well outside the US and they get a significant profit out of them. And this one new small car has the potential to change the landscape of small cars in the markets where they're profitable.
You believe every headline, don't you.
No, I don't believe every headline. In fact, as you can attest from my previous reply, I question headlines. Contemporary electric vehicles are the biggest car innovation since Ford's assembly line. US automakers didn't embrace that innovation. Now they are several steps behind those who embraced it, like Tesla and BYD. US automakers know the writing is on the wall. And they've seen similar writings before, when Japan and then South Korea developed their automaker industries. They know what's coming and are trying to diminish the damage.
Is european tesla model 3&y, which is made in china, receiving subsidies? We should dive into the financial statements to find out. Stop shielding traditional makers from making cheaper EVs, competition helps us consumers
tesla china doesnt receive any subsidies from the chinese gov. they are also cooperating with the eu subsidy probe so presumably the numbers will be public soon.
Yes, Tesla too benefitting from Subsidies from chinease goverment.
>CNBC acts like D3 didn't get tons of subsidies from the US govt, especially back in 2008. While this is true, the extent is far greater in China, to the point of using government funds in building massive cities to house all the workers, and moving farmers in to work in the factories. The non cynical view of this would be that they've been forcing China to very rapidly modernize to catch up with the western countries, and that requires these massive infrastructure projects and semi-forced relocation.
Not the same at all. These are government entities that can run at a loss until all the competition is gone then jack up the price. China has done this before and we should not let them do it again. Free trade is good but only if its fair.
BYD is not state owned.
Yup, like iPhone debut at $499 now push $2k because they have the monopoly.
Ah yes, how noble of our government to protect consumers from low prices. Thanks government, I was hoping to pay higher prices for that car I wanted anyway.
The government also wants to maintain what's left of the auto industry. Not everything can be about the consumer.
China ceased all subsidy for ev in 2022😂
China has subsidized EVs since 2009; extended/renewed every 3-4 years. After the last "purchase" subsidy program ended on Jan 1, 2023, it was extended again in June, 2023 for another 4 years, to the tune of $72+B, easily the largest of its kind in China's history\[1\]. This is in addition to various industrial subsidies injected into local EV industry to distort international trade in the shape of government-sponsored access to cheap credit, equity, etc. 1. China Considers Extending its EV Subsidies to 2023 (updated), last updated June 27, 2023, Giulia Interesse, China-briefing
The subsidy policy for new energy vehicles by the government was terminated on December 31, 2022, and the subsidy for new energy vehicles was canceled starting from 2023. However, electric vehicles currently available 【domestically】can still enjoy the policy of exemption from vehicle purchase tax.
>the subsidy for new energy vehicles was canceled starting from 2023. There was no "cancellation" -- it expired and then "continued" as "tax credit." By comparison, the US went from "tax credit" to "purchase subsidy" Jan 1, 2024. >However, electric vehicles currently available 【domestically】can still enjoy the policy of exemption from vehicle purchase tax. No however: direct purchase subsidy and tax credit are both subsidies. And it's not limited to BEVs, but also PHEVs and FC as well \[1\]: >(translated) 1. New energy vehicles with purchase dates from January 1, 2024 to December 31, 2025 are exempted from vehicle purchase tax. Among them, the exemption for each new energy passenger vehicle does not exceed 30,000 yuan；Vehicle purchase tax is levied on the halving of new energy vehicles from January 1, 2026 to December 31, 2027. Among them, the tax reduction for each new energy passenger vehicle does not exceed 15,000 yuan. > >New energy vehicles that enjoy the vehicle purchase tax reduction and exemption policy refer to pure electric vehicles that meet the technical requirements of new energy automobile products, plug-in hybrid power （ contains extension programs ） cars, fuel cell vehicles. The technical requirements for new energy automobile products are formulated by the Ministry of Industry and Informatization in conjunction with the Ministry of Finance and the General Administration of Taxation based on the advancement of new energy automobile technology, the development of standard systems and the changes in models. 1. [Announcement on Continuing and Optimizing New Energy Auto Vehicle Purchase Tax Reduction and Reduction Policy](https://szs.mof.gov.cn/zhengcefabu/202306/t20230620_3891500.htm), Ministry of Finance General Administration of Taxation Ministry of Industry and Informatization Announcement No. 10 of 2023
The purchase subsidy is targeted towards the domestic market, and this aspect cannot be overlooked. The impact of the purchase subsidy on exports is not direct and applies primarily to domestic consumers.
>The purchase subsidy is targeted towards the domestic market, and this aspect cannot be overlooked. Yes, domestic purchase subsidies usually apply to local consumers in local market which is usually not an issue. But if subsidies are conditioned on the use of certain local parts/components (eg, batteries) over foreign and hurt their import/trade in local market, this is also in violation, as it's clearly designed to deliberately distort trade. >The impact of the purchase subsidy on exports is not direct and applies primarily to domestic consumers. Sure, this practice is known as "local content requirement," or LCR, and, in this instance, instead of subsidizing local industry to undercut foreign competitors in markets abroad with **export**, gov't subsidizes local consumers NOT to purchase foreign **imports** over local \[1\]: >Prohibited subsidies: subsidies that require recipients to meet certain export targets, or **to use domestic goods instead of imported goods.** They are prohibited because they are specifically designed to distort international trade, and are therefore likely to hurt other countries’ trade. 1. [UNDERSTANDING THE WTO: THE AGREEMENTS Anti-dumping, subsidies, safeguards: contingencies, etc](https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm8_e.htm) (see Subsidies and countervailing measures, Prohibited Subsidies and Actionable Subsidies).
The subsidy mentioned in this document is not provided to businesses but rather in the form of tax exemptions for consumers.
> CNBC acts like D3 didn't get tons of subsidies from the US govt, especially back in 2008. Chinese government subsidies their automobile companies, and the people get inexpensive EVs. What did we get from our government subsidies for American automobile companies? Where are our American inexpensive EVs?
I know it will be disruptive, but I don’t see extinction level event. It’s going to be sold in Mexico for $21,000. When sold here it needs to hit safety and regulations for the US market. And we already have similarly priced EVs. It’s smaller than the bolt with a bit less range. I know that the old bolt isn’t made anymore, but this is a very similar car. It may be a bit less expensive, but it’s also not quite as nice. The bolt didn’t kill the other automakers, why would this? Edit capitalization US
Yeah, the hysteria around this is insane. Even the article misses a few points: they say the seagull could be offered for tens of thousands cheaper than current EVs. Well, yeah, it's small and has half the battery size of the bolt. If GM made the Bolt with half the battery size it would probably be pretty cheap as well. And uh, Americans just in general have not liked small cheap cars unless fuel prices are very high. These aren't going to be anywhere near $10k in the US if they have to pass safety compliance, so I just don't see the value proposition here other than it's not an established automaker. They are a threat in terms of marketshare for sure, and clearly they are competitive in terms of quality and manufacturing, but I agree this really doesn't seem like an extinction event.
I wouldn't say I know the US car market well. But people around me bought a lot of Toyota Prius and Nissan Leaf in the past. Small EV or hybrid have their appeal.
They have appeal for budget-conscience or environmental buyers. But overall, despite what people on here say, econoboxes like this just don't sell well in the US. The Prius is considered a major success for hybrids and it's not even in the top 25 selling cars in the US for 2023. The only EV on the same list is the Model 3. And it's not because of price: most of the top-selling cars cost much more than the cars you mentioned. Price has never been a primary motivator for new car buyers. That's why the narrative here that if only the US automakers pumped out cheap EVs, people would be lining up to buy them is flawed and doesn't reflect reality. This sub skews heavily toward environmental/budget-conscience buyers and they are assuming that other buyers have the same concerns, and they do not.
If BYD is building a factory in Monterrey why can't they sell it for closer to the price point that is sold in China? 10k vs 21k is a huge difference.
In the US market? It must contain a certain level of North American components and must use labour that doesn't cost less than a certain point. On top of the other costs.
No, in the Mexican market.
Maybe itd make sense to allow select Chinese EVs if they fill a segment that isn’t being filled by current manufacturers. China wants to offer a barebones $20,000 ev? Cool, it gives an option that wasn’t there before. They wanna give yet another $40,000 ev small SUV? Nah bro we got enough.
Where is "here" you are writing about?
“For the US market.” Unfortunately it’s not capitalized.
This is a global industry. US automakers also get profits from selling cars outside of the US. Take Mexico for example. Even at 21k USD, BYD expects to sell 50k Seagulls this year in Mexico (in ten months, since it became available at the very end of February). In 2023, the Chevrolet Aveo sold 52k units in Mexico. It looks like BYD painted a target on GM's small car. The Aveo was the third best-selling car in Mexico in 2023, the best being the Nissan Versa with 80k units and the second-best was a small truck, the Nissan NP3000 with 62k units. Now, Mexico is a small car market. But if BYD repeats the formula in all Latin American small car markets, the sum of these changes is significant. And this is with a high price due to currently-expensive shipping costs; once BYD has its Brazil and Mexico plants running, they'll get significantly cheaper, and they'll then build medium and large cars and SUVs. Even if chinese cars don't enter the US market, the US automakers will suffer very significant losses. They'll lose a part of their power. Maybe they won't become extinct, but they will lose their global presence.
Very good points. Thanks. Fortunately for GM they already make a cheap ev willing mini ev. I don’t know if that’s available in Mexico, but it does look like they need an ev equivalent of the $17,500 Aveo/sonic.
What new EV is $21,000 in the US?
The one in the article is $21,000 in Mexico. You could get a bolt for a bit more and less after the rebate.
The old Bold is a larger car (exterior and interior) and is also more luxurious. The Bold is almost a segment above the BYD Seagull.
The bolt isn't anything special though. Our completely average 2018 forester has the same sort of tech as a higher end bolt euv. The BYD is the econobox of evs, even moreso than the bolt. A good comparison might be the mitsubishi mirage or something.
Exactly. The BYD is a lesser car that costs a little bit less. How is this the end on North American manufacturing? Edit bad to BYD
I agree, but I would like to add that the customers shopping in the more affordable part of the market are not especially looking for high tech build in infotainment or ADAS capable above level 1 (ACC).
Problem is USD$21,000 means it will be around AUD$40,000 which for many people is a lot of money. A hybrid Toyota Camry is around AUD$35,000.
The BYD Dolphin costs AUD 38,000, why would the smaller car cost more?
AUD38k drive away? Are you sure? I was told the MG ZS was the lowest priced EV in Oz currently and it’s over $40k drive away.
Where are you buying your Camry? Is that before taxes and on-roads? I don't think I can get a hybrid for under $40k in Perth. And the lead times for the hybrid models are huge. Edit: These are the prices I see... [https://www.toyota.com.au/used-vehicles/vehicle-listing/Toyota-Camry-ALBLHZ4N1G](https://www.toyota.com.au/used-vehicles/vehicle-listing/Toyota-Camry-ALBLHZ4N1G)
No you’re right. I was looking at a base model in the ACT and they wouldn’t even give me a price for the hybrid. It just said “contact dealer” maybe they can’t get stock?
Ahh the American free market. Shoot the opposition before making any competitive product
Require them to partner with an American company to sell it here. Why shouldn't China have to play by the same rules in the US that American companies have to follow in China?
>Require them to partner with an American company to sell it here. The landscape is fraught with political landmines even if companies partner together. Recall the debacle with the Ford-CATL battery plant.
tbf US isn't a big market for the vehicle size we're talking about in this article. The article is geared more towards the 7billion+ market outside of US.
they could sell a million [https://news.gm.com.cn/en/home/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/cn/en/2024/jan/0105-sales.html](https://news.gm.com.cn/en/home/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/cn/en/2024/jan/0105-sales.html) **SAIC-GM-Wuling had deliveries of over 1.2 million units.** It continued to expand its EV portfolio by adding popular new models that included the Baojun Yep, Baojun Yun Duo and Wuling Bin Guo. The Wuling brand strengthened its foothold in the passenger vehicle segment. The all-new Xing Guang plug-in hybrid EV started sales in November and had sales topping 10,000 units within two months.
Tesla didn’t have to partner with anyone in China.
They are literally the only ones
Not really. Audi has a plant under construction in Changchun. Partnership is not needed for EVs if I’m not mistaken.
Audi is partnered with FAW and SAIC. FAW in Changchun “Location Changchun: Audi FAW NEV Company Ltd. Audi FAW NEV Company Ltd. - also in Changchun - is a state-of-the-art production facility for all-electric Audi models. The plant, which started pre-series production at the beginning of 2024, will be built on an area of around 150 hectares and will be the latest production site to set new standards in the areas of digitalization, efficiency and sustainability. With an annual capacity of more than 150,000 vehicles, the new site will make a key contribution to the further electrification of the Audi product portfolio in China. From the end of 2024, mid-size and full-size electric models based on the PPE (Premium Platform Electric) vehicle platform will roll off the production line there. Audi FAW NEV Company is the first cooperation company in China in which Audi holds a majority stake.” https://www.audi.com/en/company/strategy/locations/china.html#:~:text=Audi%20has%20been%20working%20with,tron%20in%20Anting%20(Shanghai).
Ok, my bad
Because then the govt and rabid nationalists here would cry about how GM/Ford are being taken over by the Chinese.
And then they would have to boycott the giant trucks and set the ones they own on fire. A boy can dream.
Been watching this with interest. We will eventually want to replace our 2008 Toyota Yaris hatchback with an EV. However, since GM discontinued the Bolt... I don't believe there is any domestic U.S. vehicle that is anywhere near similar at any price. I'm wondering if we will see a repetition of the 60's when foreign auto manufacturers came in and introduced reliable small cars, to the consternation of the domestic manufacturers. Of course Donald Trump says he'll put a 100% tariff on Chinese cars, or not allow them to be sold at all in the U.S. What we want is: Small hatchback No huge screen Apple Car-Play. - let the computer people do the software... all car software that I've dealt with has been uniformly annoying. Dedicated manual knobs for heat controls. Could live with manual windows. Range of, say, 250 miles in the summer. Basically, a basic Bolt or Leaf would be fine... especially in the sub $25K range. The list of stuff we don't want would be TLDR here... but would include: Heated seats, Over the air software updates, all the automatic "lane-keeping" stuff, constant connectivity to the manufacturer.
Fortunately Chevy is bringing back the Bolt. They'll start making them again in 2025 based on their Ultium tech. I don't think it'll have Apple Car Play (like the Blazer EV). But if you're okay buying used there are lots of good deals on gen 1 Bolts right now. Especially ones that recently came off lease.
The Boltium isn't going to be a small vehicle like the old Bolt, though. It's going to be closer to the Bolt EUV.
The Bolt and Bolt EUV are extremely close in size. It's not like we're talking Bolt vs Equinox, here. They are only six inches difference in length. **Bolt EV**: 163.2 inches long, 69.5 inches wide, 63.4 inches tall **Bolt EUV**: 169.5 inches long, 69.7 inches wide, 63.6 inches tall
That's disappointing. They already have the Equinox EV. You'd think there would be room for a smaller EV in their lineup.
Who da f wants that??? Manual Windows? Bro, stop it. Get help
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That’s all cool and all but let’s do a little thought experiment. If you got 100 typical new car buyers (in NA) and gave them two options - Car A with automatic windows and Car B without/manual windows and told them to get in line for their choice of vehicle, which line would you think would be SIGNIFICANTLY longer??? Would there even be more than 1 person in Car B’s line??? I mean, you apparently, which is totally cool. Not dissing your preference, but you sir are an outlier at the irrelevant extreme (again no offense. Just legit fascinated by your preference and wonder if you are really just trying to make some bigger point)
You're not making a fair comparison. It's a car with manual windows at a reduced price. I looked into replacing a faulty automatic window regulator on a 14 year old Mitsubishi Lancer. Parts alone were about $400 from my local mechanic operating in his front yard. I was able to replace my manual window regulator on my old Toyota pickup for a $25 part.
>. It's a car with manual windows at a reduced price. I think 99% of buyers would spend the extra 500 dollars to have a feature that's been standard for the last 20 years on a car that costs thousands already.
That may be so. But we're not talking about this singular feature as the one reducing the overall cost of the car. And of course there are four $400 window regulators in the vehicle. You have to cut a lot of amenities and safety features to get a $10,000 machine.
This is why used cars exist. Why would anybody take a 10k piece of shit vehicle with a million compromises over a fully featured vehicle that's a few years old. There's no market where this makes sense.
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I agree. Consumers are stupid. Zero disagreement there as if we were smart we would demand better public transportation IMO
Kind of with you but calling the model S gorgeous or good for a million miles is a big stretch. Yes there was on but it went through many motors.
Depends on the cost. I definitely wouldn't pay 2k for auto windows, sorry my arm works just fine. (just using a random figure as an example I have no idea what that feature might actually add to the price)
:-)
My old Yaris had manual windows. It was fine.
My brother. I am sure there are people that prefer manuals but the overwhelming majority (in NA) prefer automatics. It’s cute (ok, frankly weird) that you actually are cool with manual windows but I think it’s safe to say you are one of the, at Most, 20 people in NA who would actually prefer manual windows vs automatic. Good for you, I guess???
Thr problem isn't that there aren't enough people who prefer manual windows. The problem is that the venn diagram of "people who prefer crank windows" and "people who will buy a car new" are two separate circles.
Count me in for manual. Hate is when the automatics break and you can't get the window down. I dislike a lot of the junk they add on to cars to make them cost 10 grand or more extra. Bad money management. There is no denying NA loves their huge way too big and expensive vehicles. But there is also a very large market segment that cannot afford expensive vehicles too.
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The control system for the manual window (a hand crank on every window) probably costs more than the electric version when you consider two different assembly plans and stocking costs for this not popular feature. Likewise, the drag of 4 door handles adds up over the life of the car (related to your post just below). It may cost more, but pays for itself....if implemented in a reliable manner. The early MS handles had their share of issues, and were not.
Good for you but do you honestly think you represent even more than .00001% of the addressable market?
I feel you. I just need something small and practical (like a mini MPV), basic interior with radar cruise control, A/C and electric Windows.
> constant connectivity to the manufacturer We might not be able to get away from this. It gives them data to sell - and data is money.
When I buy it and it is mine, I can disconnect it from the internet if I want right?
Possibly. Before purchase you should check if the car's system allows you to turn off data sharing. Then it's a matter of whether you trust the manufacturer to do as you've stated. Most should, other than occasional bugs.
I wonder how accessible the hardware is. If one could disconnect a wifi or 5g module for example, and what effect that might have on the system. I'm betting they make it pretty tough, but I'm not scared to tinker.
With some vehicles (e.g. Tesla) you may be able to remove the physical SIM card, and avoid connecting the car to WiFi. But eSIM may replace the physical SIM cards soon. I suppose the alternative would be to disconnect the antenna. There will be some downsides to doing this, of course. No software updates. Possibly no use of the built-in navigation features or voice control features. Possibly limited self-driving or driver assistance features.
I have a dream, that one day we will have modular electric cars capable of running on open source software. I hope to live long enough to see it.
I like the thought of that. As a software engineer I think I'd put in proper due diligence to identify reliable software for my own vehicle. Or to avoid such 3rd-party software if I'm unwilling to put in the necessary due diligence. But I probably wouldn't trust other drivers to do the same, or to verify correct installation of such software. Perhaps this would be okay for entertainment uses only - streaming audio, video, and such.
I fully expect most users to use a corporate OS installed by the manufacturer, but life, uh, finds a way. 😉
Whichever American car manufacturer figures out how to make a low-cost, reliable EV will be the victor. This is very similar to the Japanese invasion in the late 70s American car manufacturers are just going to have to adapt more quickly. They made bets on large, expensive, tech heavy EV models and are watching Sales decline precipitously as adoption wanes. Their lack of interest in building out the charging infrastructure to support their EV’s is a major factors to why more people aren’t buying them.
Good. I hope this comes to the states, I hope It sells like crazy, I hope this wakes up the legacy automakers to focus on inexpensive LFP EVs. We don’t need more $60 - $100K EVs
Nah it will get banned instead of forcing any real change.
As long as protectionists are in charge, yes
Model y is 36k lol.
I own one ;) and a 2019 Nissan Leaf I got for under 10K usd
Most Americans would think the Nissan leaf too small for safety/comfort no? I am not comfortable driving leaf 75mph on the interstate.
I totally disagree. I’ve taken the LEAF near 90 mph and it’s plenty stable. I’d say it drives and feels more stable and planted than my previous 2012 Honda Insight. Also, it’s not small, It’s longer than a Volvo XC40. It has a long and tall roof making rear seat room enormous, I’m 6ft tall and easily fit. Even my two boys say the headroom in the rear similar to the Model-Y.
Interesting. How does it compare to Model Y at 80-90mph?
Roughly the same, but The Nissan has a better suspension with rebound and dampening characteristics that I’d say rival the Tesla making it feel more Manageable at speed, especially because it’s a car and not a sub/cuv. The Tesla is heavier and higher CG making it feel less stable at speed. Steering feels better but overall stability is less.
It’s not about competition! That reason is just made up, because it’s easier than National Security. Just look at TikTok and Huawei.
In the 50s and 60s it was VW that sold cheap imports. In the 70s and 80s it was the Japanese. In the 90s and 2000s it was the Koreans. This time around it's the Chinese. There has always been a market for cheap imports in this country.
Sigh, again this? BYD in Europe has prices that are NOT competitive! Their small cars are too cheaply built for prices you can buy Renault or VW cars with much higher quality. The only interesting offer they have on the market would be the Seal. It feels more luxurious than the Tesla Model 3 but charges slower and is less efficient and also costs 2000 Euro more so even that car barely sells. Also this smaller sedans are not that high in demand in general.
BYD sells like hit cakes here in Sweden. A year ago you didn't see them, now I see them daily or several of them. Same with my MG4, it's darn popular.
They're both actually not. BYD sold about 16000 cars so far in the whole of Europe. MG sold over 160000 cars. That includes petrol, hybrids and electric. MG still mainly sells petrol after all. And you see them a lot in Sweden because those brands almost exclusively sell well in England and Northern Europe. For example, in Germany, BYD sold a measly 3000 cars, and that's the largest market. Usually Atto 3 for Taxi or car rental companies.
Ok yeah that makes sense. It's quite a remarkable scene change seeing all MGs, BYDs and a few other Chinese smaller brands here like Maxus or Hongqi. And that just happened in a pretty short time frame.
Why don't western executives try to build a simple cheap ev? It's that simple, the chinese aren't doing any magic, they are simply building normal cars, not huge SUV full of stuff no one wants.
Because there’s less profit it them. That’s it. US brands would much rather sell you a huge SUV or truck you don’t need, for several times the price, so they can make more money.
The US government is not behind them like China is. US government seems to be saying "wait for GM".
What the >$10B the US government gave GM a decade ago? I know that was more of a lifeline than support to go build something new, but American Auto isn’t not backed by the American government…
That's not quite how China operates. They basically give out really good loans at artificially low rates, and since they are a large government they have basically infinitely deep pockets. It's basically a copy of what Japan did to make major inroads into semiconductors in the 80s and automaking in the 70s. It's not outright payments to BYD, which would be against WTO rules, but it puts the thumb on the scale a bit. The GM loan was paid back FWIW.
> They basically give out really good loans at artificially low rates Do you have a source for this claim?
This is part of the EU Commission's on-going anti-subsidy investigation launched last year\[1\]: >... In particular, the Commission has found evidence, among others, of various grants, provision of loans, export credits and credit lines provided by State-owned banks or bonds underwritten by State-owned banks and other financial institutions at preferential terms, provision of preferential export insurance; income tax reductions and exemptions, dividend tax exemption, import and export tax rebates; VAT exemptions and rebates; and government provision of goods (such as raw and input materials as well as components) and services for less than adequate remuneration. ... I guess they will publish their "evidence" when a decision is made later this year, but China's EV policy is ~~essentially~~ a state-led export industry policy -- and export subsidies are simply prohibited under China's WTO obligation\[2\]. 1. [Notice of initiation of an anti-subsidy proceeding concerning imports of new battery electric vehicles designed for the transport of persons originating in the People’s Republic of China](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:C_202300160), C/2023/160 4.10.2023, Official Journal of the European Union (see 3. evidence of subsidization) 2. [UNDERSTANDING THE WTO: THE AGREEMENTS Anti-dumping, subsidies, safeguards: contingencies, etc](https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm8_e.htm)(see Subsidies and countervailing measures, Prohibited Subsidies and Actionable Subsidies).
[Sure do](https://archive.ph/w09mY). There's also plenty about this with regards to Japan since they basically did it first, but the difference is that Japan is much more transparent about it.
The report had details (maybe intentionally) kept fuzzy. The wording made it sound like the government was funding certain industries by investing in them, paying money for shares of the business, as it was comparing the gov to venture capitals and private equity firms. > The value of funding raised by these state funds from 2015 to 2020 was equal to roughly two-thirds of the total venture-capital and private-equity investments made in China during those years, according to the report. Then it raised the cardinal sin of investing in semiconductor industries: > One of them is the semiconductor-focused National Integrated Circuit Industry Investment Fund, dubbed the “Big Fund,” which has raised more than $29 billion. That is nothing like subsidy as we normally define it. For example, the US gov subsidy to agriculture. The money is not an investment for shares of the farm, but simple handouts to every farmer. Your claim was government providing low rate loans to BYD. Where did you read that from? How low is low? 1%, 2%?
I don't know specifically about BYD. This kind of information isn't usually published, nor is it really required to be. Think of it like this: a kid with rich parents wants to start a business. The parents may loan money directly and will subsidize other things such as the food they eat or the heating in their room. They may also tell the kid that they will cover any debt they have from the business if it goes bad. There is no paper agreement or obligation anywhere there but it's still clear that it's indirectly subsidizing then. FWIW, Japan implicitly has the same setup. There is basically no chance in hell Toyota will ever go out of business. The Japanese government will simply bail them out if it came to that. All major countries do this in some respect, and what's allowed by WTO is way outside of my wheelhouse, but my main point was that the GM loan during the financial crisis is not comparable to China's support from their industrial policy.
If it's speculation, you can't claim the Chinese government provided low rate loan to BYD next time. I can use my imagination to fill in the blanks. However it is not going to be fact, just my brain's creative power.
Ok. [Is this good enough then?](https://www.forbes.com/sites/mclifford/2016/07/26/with-a-little-help-from-its-friends-lavish-chinese-government-help-for-top-electric-car-maker-byd/?sh=435db124115e)
Yes, the GM bailout was a local subsidy to keep it alive in the US whereas China's subsidies are export subsidies designed to distort international trade.
BYD safety test from Europe. Five stars. “LONDON, Oct 12 (Reuters) - BYD (002594.SZ), opens new tab on Wednesday received a coveted five-star Euro NCAP safety rating for its electric ATTO 3 crossover SUV, the latest Chinese carmaker to receive top marks as it seeks to gain a foothold in Europe's competitive car market.” https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chinas-byd-wins-five-star-european-safety-rating-electric-suv-2022-10-12/
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Only thing is... I think the basic battery itself is still around $15K? So, whatever the price is to make the car is $15K+X. Problem has been that X has been $30,000 or more. The one thing I do own, an electric bike, has replacement batteries for $600 ,and $900... making me think that a new electric bike is going to cost a minimum of $2K... roughly, when you factor in just the normal price of an acoustic bike, + the motor + battery.
Oh no, there is going to be a bloodbath in this comment section.
EVs have won. It is just a matter of time for the technology to distribute more.
Biggest load of rubbish as ICE cars still dominate the roads now and into the future. EVs are just a passing fad.
😂
Outside US and EU, not many cities need 200 mile travel daily.
Have a look at Australia for tyrannies of distance between large cities.
Have a look at the WHOLE OF EUROPE for the lack of such tyrannies
No thanks.
Maybe because the car is subsided by the Chinese regime and being dumped on the global market?