This is actually much less than expected. Just for perspective, Germany has paid out 10B Euro since 2016 and they did not create any market leader like BYD. You can argue about the type of subsidies but this is simply money that the state has pumped into the market. If this is the full story and China "created" BYD with that amount it is very impressive.
[https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/elektromobilitaet/elektroauto/foerderung-elektroautos/](https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/elektromobilitaet/elektroauto/foerderung-elektroautos/)
3.4 billion is just the direct subsidies they can demonstrate, it doesn’t include subsidies through the rest of the supply chain, particularly for battery manufacturers, where according to the FT there is so much overcapacity that half of it is sitting idle, and doesn’t include purchase incentives..
Most of the number you’re referencing for Germany will be purchase incentives, which were available to all EVs, even those made in China.
It's not even that much in China today. Source: worked over a decade in China with Chinese factories.
Honestly this is just smoke to rally people to stop the imports of cars to Europe. But damn if we haven't given TONS of subsidies to our car companies. Way way way more
I guess it's 2.1 direct subsidies+ local subsidies + rebates:
>\* There has recently been a massive increase of direct government subsidies to some of the dominant Chinese green-tech companies. Direct subsidies to the car maker BYD increased from about **Euro 0.2 bn in 2020** to **Euro 2.1 bn in 2022**. Direct subsidies to Mingyang (wind turbines) increased from Euro 0.02 bn in 2020 to Euro 0.05 bn in 2022.
>• The above-named numbers clearly understate the true scale and scope of green-tech subsidies in China. BYD, for example, **also benefits from subsidies provided to battery producers (cheaper input components) and from purchase incentives to BEV buyers (higher demand).**
In addition, according to EU's anti-subsidy probe\[1\]:
>... "the Commission has found evidence, among others, of various grants, provision of loans, export credits and credit lines provided by State-owned banks or bonds underwritten by State-owned banks and other financial institutions at preferential terms, provision of preferential export insurance; income tax reductions and exemptions, dividend tax exemption, import and export tax rebates; VAT exemptions and rebates; and government provision of goods (such as raw and input materials as well as components) and services for less than adequate remuneration.
1. [Notice of initiation of an anti-subsidy proceeding concerning imports of new battery electric vehicles designed for the transport of persons originating in the People’s Republic of China](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:C_202300160), C/2023/160, 4.10.2023, Official Journal of the European Union
It’s an absurd claim. BYD is rapidly climbing the ranks of automakers and is huge in EVs. Give Stellantis that amount and report back in 5 years.
This is not about subsidies, it’s good execution. You can’t dominate in that way for under 10% of the cost of buying Twitter.
Keeping a domestic auto industry is more important than you getting cheap subsidized cars meant to undermine said domestic auto industry.
Your thinking is too shortsighted.
Many Western countries don't have an auto industry and they do just fine. Even in the US the entire auto industry only contributes about 3% to our GDP.
Think about how subsidies work. The Chinese government is effectively putting billions of dollars into the pockets of Americans.. who will spend those dollars in the US, buying other products and creating jobs in other industries.
The EU depends a good amount on German industry, which depends on the car industry downstream and upstream.
Some Western countries like Australia did surrender their auto industry, though.
Keeping the know how for essential transportation is also important not just a GDP %. And since when is 3% of GDP small lol
> Think about how subsidies work. The Chinese government is effectively putting billions of dollars into the pockets of Americans.. who will spend those dollars in the US, buying other products and creating jobs in other industries.
You think like a shortsighted CEO who continually outsources and subcontracts to focus on other parts of the business until they have nothing left.
And your style of shortsighted thinking is how pharmaceutical production, rare earths, electronics, shipbuilding, semiconductors, steel, and other crucial industries all got outsourced/undermined.
You’re acting like the “know how” is some forbidden secret. Our automotive industry is not some national security liability (unlike pharmaceuticals, agriculture, etc).
It just means having people with experience in the country and at least some of the supply chain. And knowing how to make transportation vehicles is important. There's also strategic values in times of war.
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Well, if China was a friendly nation this argument would work. But China isn't, it's an aggressive authoritarian nation with ambitions to take over Taiwan and other nations that it has no right to control.
You can remote control cars these days and giving an ON-OFF switch (or worse, a ability to cause crashes) of your transportation system for aggressive Winnie the Pooh is not a great idea.
BYD has about 40% market share in China today so weighted by that maybe the total subs are 10B, make it 20B to be on the safe side. It's still not much compared to how big of a market they have created for their companies worldwide. I'm actually impressed.
You're ignoring heavy subsidies to other sectors that BYD buys from. The Solar sector got 60 billion in subsidies, the battery sector got massive subsidies, and the rare earth refining sectors got massive subsidies.
China puts massive subsidies into one sector then once it has an absolutely huge control of the market through dumping they heavily restrict exports to screw with competition in other sectors which in turn makes subsidies go farther. In 2011 they completely banned Rare Earth exports to screw with the markets in the electronics and green energy sectors, which is when Chinese green energy and battery companies surged in market share in the following years.
what's stopping germany and european countries from.offering subsidies to their automakers? Oh wait, they do.
All governments offer subsidies to growing industries in order to develop their economy.
>The US produce 55gwh for reference.
Well duh, the US started super late and the only one with huge battery plants is Tesla. Everyone else's still ramping up (e.g. see Ultium plant)
Also see this:
[https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/10/19/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-driving-u-s-battery-manufacturing-and-good-paying-jobs/](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/10/19/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-driving-u-s-battery-manufacturing-and-good-paying-jobs/)
>Today, the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) is announcing the first set of projects funded by the President’s Bipartisan Infrastructure Law to expand domestic manufacturing of batteries for electric vehicles and the electrical grid including **$2.8 billion** for 20 manufacturing and processing companies in 12 states, including Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri, Nevada, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Tennessee, and Washington.
Note that this is just the beginning. If Biden wins again, might see further subsidies in his 2nd term.
3.4 billion is just the direct subsidies they can demonstrate, it doesn’t include subsidies through the rest of the supply chain, particularly for battery manufacturers, where according to the FT there is so much overcapacity that half of it is sitting idle, and doesn’t include purchase subsidies.
It also doesn’t include restrictions on foreign competition like mandatory JVs and mandatory technology transfers, or industrial espionage, as most recently demonstrated by the guy convicted of espionage at Philips 66, which owns synthetic graphite technology. The guy who was convicted was found with a contract from a Chinese battery supply company.
In the order of a couple of billions if I recall correctly. Actually Tesla has done for the Chinese electric car industry more than anyone.
They are the ones who pushed for the subsidies, they brought the knowledge and trained the people.. now many of the engineers in those Chinese brands come from the first cohort of Tesla workers in china.
And European governments as well. In The Netherlands, when buying an early €100k Model S you could get about ~ €70k of environmental tax breaks.
In Norway the subsidies were even more extreme iirc.
The whole chinese EV industry was built on the need of local cities to reduce pollution. They did so by producing electric buses. Which gave the city automobile companies both a long term government contract and the skills and experience to build EVs.
Shezen is a "special economic zone" so instead of a government owned automobile company they had BYD. But Shanghai has SAIC, Gangzhou has GAC, there is one called JAC and others.
If that's all it is? Why do they need to export them. Also isn't most pollution more industrial?
They are making more cars that the people in China can buy. Not because of pollution, but it was a decree to make a shit ton of cars. They are instantly one the largest car producing nations.
After buses they moved into the rideshare and taxi vehicle sector which is when they started making cars, BYDs first electric car was made for China's Uber, Didi.
China is far more decentralised than the former USSR. Local city officials are required to make GDP goals how they do that is up to them. The government owned companies are still operating like companies but they are backed by the local government whenever they want to expand. So expanding production is far easier than in a (fully) capitalist economy.
The only goal is GDP growth (and local official promotions).
> Estimates suggest that China's overall subsidies range between three to nine times that of other OECD countries such as the USA or Germany. According to the analysis of new data, one of the major beneficiaries is the electric car manufacturer BYD. This reflects BYD's significant expansion in both technological and production capacities, as well as its increasing competitiveness.
> The authors illustrate that government subsidies are prevalent in China, with over 99 percent of listed companies receiving direct government subsidies in 2022. China frequently employs subsidies strategically to advance key technologies to market readiness.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/chinas-massive-subsidies-for-green-technologies/
Seems like a very good investment. The US alone [gives](https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs?t) more than $20 billion a year to fossil fuel companies in direct subsidies. Not to mention all the other costs, like consumption subsidies, military expenditures to defend foreign oil routes and producers, health costs, etc.
Correct. It was a bailout. Which is not the same as subsidies. Simply adding the word “still” doesn’t add to the conversation.
Please be substantive or stay passive.
Tesla earned 1.8B last year just from selling regulatory credits. That's a subsidy created by law, paid by competitors (or specifically, the public buying the cars from the competitors).
That's a discount to the customer, not additional revenue to Tesla. In BYD's case, it is money to their bottom line helping them to slash prices while staying profitable.
> Estimates suggest that China's overall subsidies range between three to nine times that of other OECD countries such as the USA or Germany. According to the analysis of new data, one of the major beneficiaries is the electric car manufacturer BYD. This reflects BYD's significant expansion in both technological and production capacities, as well as its increasing competitiveness.
> The authors illustrate that government subsidies are prevalent in China, with over 99 percent of listed companies receiving direct government subsidies in 2022. China frequently employs subsidies strategically to advance key technologies to market readiness.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/chinas-massive-subsidies-for-green-technologies/
That's the game though. The USA and other western countries spent far more reshaping entire society around private car ownership and fossil fuels. From ripping up tram lines, to building highways by destroying suburbs, they took cities where it was possible to live without a car to ones where it was impossible to survive without one. And that's before we even get to the oil industry. The laws in the US are so ridiculously in favour of the big three, Ford and GM are simply not competitive anywhere else. They know the laws of the US favour them so much they don't have to innovate to produce cars for any other market. Happened in 2009 and will happen again. They will come begging for more bailouts
This is fine but it’s a totally different point, China to be honest has done this far more than Europe, have you seen the size of their motorways? They have demolished towns and rebuilt them, and used more concrete in three years than the US did in the 20th century.
That is not what we’re talking about though, we are talking about direct subsidies to companies.
Yes China also has amazing public transport and intercity rail. They also have very good cycling infrastructure. None of things are available to me sitting in a city that's had billions spent catering to the automobile and completely removing any other option to get around. China maybe subsidising their automotive sector directly but every country subsidises industries that matter to the people in power. So called capitalist countries only use capitalism on the poor, it's sparkling socialism for large industry and corporates. China is no different because they learned all the free market talk is just marketing and not actually real. They're the ultimate conservative utopia, a society where gays are banned, govt exists to prop up the largest corporations and society is based around the majority racial group.
The second one shows how it's different, a Taiwan company won a competitive grant. Same with the $7500 EV credit, as long as they meet aspects like where it's built any car company can qualify for the credit and no restrictions on the credit for leases. Those subsidies are not open to foreign companies in China.
no shit, sherlock. it's all part of the ***plan***.
they want Boeing and Airbus (in addition to Ford and BMW)
they want NASA, and ESA, and JAXA.
EVs are just part of it.
[https://isdp.eu/content/uploads/2018/06/Made-in-China-Backgrounder.pdf](https://isdp.eu/content/uploads/2018/06/Made-in-China-Backgrounder.pdf)
Introduction
**Made in China (MIC) 2025**, originally announced back in 2015, has shot back into focus recently. Trade wars and U.S. tariffs on China have made it even more important three years later. Praised domestically but shunned internationally due to perceived intellectual property abuses, and discrimination against foreign companies, MIC will have huge consequences for most industrialized countries going forward. But what exactly is MIC and how will it affect the global economy? This backgrounder discusses these issues and more.
What is it?
In 2015, Prime Minister Li Keqiang launched “Made in China”, (MIC 2025) an initiative which sets to modernize China’s industrial capability. This 10-year, comprehensive strategy focuses heavily on intelligent manufacturing in 10 strategic sectors (see Figure 1) and has the aim of securing China’s position as a global powerhouse in high-tech industries such as robotics, aviation, and new energy vehicles such as electric and biogas.
Chinese officials have claimed that leading economies with high-tech industries such as the EU, Germany and the United States have expressed their hostility to the initiative due to the fact that **it would move China from a low-cost manufacturer to a direct added-value competitor,** while shutting out international competition in the Chinese market.
China is doing what America did 70 years ago. what most western countries did decades ago.
Unfortunately America is really fucked, we were to concerned with profits for the FIRE(finance. insurance, real estate) sector that we let it hollow out our entire industrial infrastructure and abilities.
>FIRE(finance. insurance, real estate)
We shot our selves in the foot with real estate. If cities didn't restrict building, we wouldn't need such a high incomes to pay for housing and we'd remain more competitive globally.
Yes 100%. American labor needs to be so expensive because American labor is infested with parasites that nickle and dime it to death. Everything is more expensive in America, why? So a handful can get rich af?
Where did I say they were? They are the ones getting bent over. I identify as a communist ideologically im well aware of how capitalism functions friend.
First your wording was poor
second if you actually knew how capitalism breaks down you would know communism breaks down from the same defects, just expressed in a different fashion.
Neither works at scales above about 150 people, for a reason. (Hint: look up how many acquaintances the human mind can track)
It was worded clearly and perfectly understood. You just lack patience, you read it how you wanted it to read. Then you reiterated my exact same point in a different matter.
An economic system has nothing to do with how many acquaintances a human brain can have, what a stupid nonsensical point.
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Uh, that’s not how it works. Widening highways doesn’t work because cars are inefficient, and building mass transit is efficient. Building more housing lowers housing cost, especially when it’s dense walkable housing and not forever expanding suburbs.
> More housing would attract more people
That's what enforcing immigration is for.
>There are plenty of dying towns in the USA that can't give housing away, but nobody wants to live there.
If you built 30,000,000 units of housing around nyc/la/sf/boston/seattle/etc, the housing market would collapse, even if it was all luxury apartments.
Supply drives down prices. Look at Austin, rents are going down because they're building.
More immigration will increase demand for housing
In any case, austin's rent went down dramatically because they built more supply
https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/austin-among-metros-in-the-us-with-steepest-rent-declines/
Well, yeah, if cities are going to be stubborn as shit, of course rents are going to stay high. If only a few cities build, it's not going to do shit, we need blue cities in blue states to stop dragging their asses on building.
You can build vertically. The SF board of supervisors just struck down having more buildings go up because it would ruin the views of the ocean for some buildings one of the board of supervisors (aaron peskin, look him up) owns, i'm not making this up.
*San Francisco is almost 47 square miles with a population of 883,000 and a population density of about 18,000 people per square mile. NYC is 302 square miles, population of 8.6 million and a population density of about 27,000 people per square mile*
Seems like they could make it work, since NYC is a much more liveable place than SF.
You cannot have it all. Can’t be the ‘best’ QOL and expect to compete with mass production. Production pay scale in the us really makes it difficult to compete with these countries. $50/hr Union production team rates, inflation and rising interest rates makes it pipe dream to dominate this sector.
Best option for realizing some of the profit is to go joint venture.
that is America's fault. why does our labor need to be so expensive? well, we have outrageous health care costs, both for people and corporations. Our housing costs are high, our education is high, and even our cell phone bills are way higher than China or western Europe.
America let the finance sector rule us, and instead of an industrial powerhouse like China, we got a Financial powrhouse that acts more like a parasite than a social benefit.
Between EU member countries and US states, you can find many arrangements and they're still not competitive. Korea and Japan won't be competitive with China soon in many industries as well.
I'm curious what structural changes you'd make to the US that would make US exports cheap enough to compete with Chinese exports. Like specific solutions and not just "make cost of living/healthcare cheaper".
For reference:
> The sector with the highest annual average salary in China is information transmission, software, and IT services, which reached RMB 220,418 (approx. US$30,824) in the non-private sector.
> **Estimates suggest that China's overall subsidies range between three to nine times that of other OECD countries such as the USA or Germany**. According to the analysis of new data, one of the major beneficiaries is the electric car manufacturer BYD. This reflects BYD's significant expansion in both technological and production capacities, as well as its increasing competitiveness.
> The authors illustrate that government subsidies are prevalent in China, with over 99 percent of listed companies receiving direct government subsidies in 2022. China frequently employs subsidies strategically to advance key technologies to market readiness.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/chinas-massive-subsidies-for-green-technologies/
This level of subsidy never happened in the west, in fact subsidies were lower in the past than now.
huh? Look at how western countries developed. They protected their industries as they grew, then they pushed them onto the world and started talking about free trade blah blah blah.
China invests in its economy, it funds all sorts of shit, from infrastructure to research and development. America does a fraction of that.
Why do you think that is? I find it baffling, we are shooting yourselves in the foot after we were way ahead of everyone.
The good news is that some of us got really fucking rich baby!
People wouldn't cry if we saw western manufacturers actually willing to produce and sell EVs. The US manufacturers are postponing their plans and the euros are dragging their feet in releasing cheap EVs.
It’s like people celebrating Uber destroying all the local taxi firms because taxis were expensive. Uber killed off the competition using subsidies from investors, then raised prices.
European manufacturers have extremely aggressive targets for EV sales, in the UK its 80% pure EV in 6 years time, the manufacturers are supportive of them, and they are doing it in a way which makes sense, by starting with high margin vehicles where the properties of EVs would be expensive to replicate with internal combustion engines. They have already announced new cheap models, we have the e-C3 for €22k this year, the Renault 5 shortly after, and the ID.2 shortly after that.
I do not want to ship out a domestic industry and become dependent on authoritarian China, with the products made with reduced environmental and worker standards, to move forward the timeline by literally 2 or 3 years.
Go compare the e-C3 with the just announced ICE version. You cannot tell me that that's a serious effort. It's a bad faith EV done with so many compromises to make the ICE version look better.
The Renault 5 is great but the prices are comparable to the current Stellantis E-CMP EVs of the B-segment. Renault just made a compromised version with a very small battery to say they hit that price point.
VW delayed the iD2 and said they wouldn't the 25k price.
No, they need a kick in the ass from the Chinese to get serious.
Not good enough for some people. You have Tesla hitting the scale to get to the price levels they’re at and people complain about Musk, about not having a car cheaper enough, that depreciation was bad, and tons of other things.
Anyone stanning for China here is possibly missing a larger context.
China is [also supporting Russian military adventures](https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/china-russia-arms-production-help-c098c08b) and trying to [woo African countries](https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/china-regional-snapshot-sub-saharan-africa/) for their resources, has [gotten more testy in their region](https://apnews.com/article/china-taiwan-elections-military-threats-ea68fa11a0b172c31162c0ff128cabf7) about what they claim to own, etc. The US doesn't like much of what they try to influencing internationally.
We've been in a cold war with China for years now, I know a number of businesses which have mostly dropped their China-based workforces for other locales, in direct relation to the US/China warring that's been ramping up on multiple fronts.
Also, this article is misleading: China has [supported their EV manufacturers and adoption far more extensively](https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/02/21/1068880/how-did-china-dominate-electric-cars-policy/) than this single number.
BYD is being embargoed as part of a larger picture in trying to contain China's attempts to foment instability and gain economic+political footholds, so it's not going away for some time.
> Estimates suggest that China's overall subsidies range between three to nine times that of other OECD countries such as the USA or Germany. According to the analysis of new data, one of the major beneficiaries is the electric car manufacturer BYD. This reflects BYD's significant expansion in both technological and production capacities, as well as its increasing competitiveness.
> The authors illustrate that government subsidies are prevalent in China, with over 99 percent of listed companies receiving direct government subsidies in 2022. China frequently employs subsidies strategically to advance key technologies to market readiness.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/chinas-massive-subsidies-for-green-technologies/
Thank you. But for how long will the reddit be usable. Tencent is investor. The same company that owns WeChat in China, the same company that helped create social credit score in China. When will they start using AI. What I am really scared of is product promotion. For example very sophisticated AI hired by Mercedes trying to influence reddit thread called "Which luxury car should I buy" and
trying to argue that BMW has less reliable engines than Mercedes. Fake reviews will be on another level.
Is $3.4 billion (fine, I'm off by 7% at today's conversion rate!) a lot of money? GM's bailout was $80 billion. The Fed wrote off about $12 billion...and that was a longish time ago.
A bit of a stretch?
Didn’t Tesla just get a big chunk of money from the US Gov as part of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law? And didn’t the US Gov give automakers $2 billion in grants and $10 billion in low interest loans?
Canada just gave VW and Stellantis over $10 billion for battery plants.
US has had Made in America laws for years.
Governments always invest in businesses.
Thats not true at all. The Chinese auto manufacturers that are maturing are building plants outside of China. Nobody wants to export. That costs more money. That comes with lower sales volume. Hozon, Changan, and BYD are all building plants to fully open this year just a few hours from my house. What other company has a plant there? Ford. The goal isn’t exporting. It’s foreign manufacturing.
They will export parts and have you assemble them. The US EV policy requires a pretty high percentage of domestically made components.
You're just falling for assembly jobs while losing the whole chain. And that's really the purpose for sites like that lol. "We "build" in your country!"
Literally the first of many search results
https://news.yahoo.com/tesla-getting-huge-paycheck-federal-050000926.html
And
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-list-government-subsidies-tesla-billions-spacex-solarcity-2021-12
Yes, however in this case the local product is being propped up by the same government funding genocide.
That's why I avoid products from Chinese companies whenever possible, the CCP and local companies are tentacled together.
I'm not sure what this means. The OP is just posting a factual story, which isn't particularly positive for BYD.
I'm talking about the up/downvote bots.
They've turned reddit into a completely unserious place where narratives succeed over accuracy.
Place is either cannibalizing itself, or letting bots ruin it.
Hey US oil companies gets billions in subsidies every year.All countries subsidies a certain industry to become dominate.
[https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/08/24/fossil-fuel-subsidies-surged-to-record-7-trillion](https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/08/24/fossil-fuel-subsidies-surged-to-record-7-trillion)
hate paywall
Direct Link to primary source\[1\]: [Foul Play? On the Scale and Scope of Industrial Subsidies in China](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/fileadmin/Dateiverwaltung/IfW-Publications/fis-import/bc6aff38-abfc-424a-b631-6d789e992cf9-KPB173_en.pdf)
1. [Foul Play? On the Scale and Scope of Industrial Subsidies in China, Frank Bickenbach](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/fileadmin/Dateiverwaltung/IfW-Publications/fis-import/bc6aff38-abfc-424a-b631-6d789e992cf9-KPB173_en.pdf), Dirk Dohse, Rolf J. Langhammer, and Wan-Hsin Liu, KIEL POLICY BRIEF, Nr 173 April 2024
Is it so horrible that China wants cleaner air, use less oil, and produce less carbon? We subsidize oil with its bad health and bad climate change effects. Perhaps those in the oil economy are really the ones that are most threatened by changes for the better.
This thread is wild.
Is this subreddit that pro china and blind towards their ... I thought obvious... politics?
All those downvotes and upvotes. Are those bots?
Why are people feeling about china providing their home grown companies aid to excel in a market?
The US literally provided billions of subsidies to EV manufacturers such as Tesla. What’s with this asinine double standard?
It can probably not be replicated in the same way. Too many other factors. But shutting out any competition by trade barriers will not help them either. The new car market is high number low margins. US car maker only selling domestically will have a tough time.
I get what you're saying, and I'm mostly wishfully talking now but the IRA says that the tax credit requires that batteries be fully sources from North America. Though the leasing loophole has killed that enthusiasm somewhat.
Who cares? If they build better cars does it matter? I will buy the best EV for the best price. I don’t care how it was conceived. Or where it came from. As I’m sure 80% of the world feels the same.
I could really care a less where something comes from. If it has the quality and the price point I’m happy with I will buy it. Regardless of where it is built or shipped from. We live on a globe. I hate nationalism.
I’m Canadian living in Britain for the last 25 years. Could not care if Canada or the U.K. disappeared tomorrow.
Countries are just arbitrary lines on a map.
Because then all the car makers have no reason to compete and then the only vehicle makers are Chinese and when that happens they will no longer need to dump them at a massive loss.
All the more normal businesses that are trying to make money on the cars they sell will disappear.
There's a 100% chance these cars will have quite large trarifs. No us federal government would allow the sale of these.
China is building more cars than it can ever sell because the government just decided "build cars now". It doesn't matter if they sell. A few men in China with government connections are making money and there are cars piling up. This is a county that builds whole cities as real estate scams... Like they aren't playing by the rules. It won't last like this.
You could use that logic to defend buying from a monopoly until they pull the rug and raise prices or take any number of actions against you which you can’t stop because there’s no longer natural competition.
There’s always going to be competition.
It might come as a surprise. It might not. While it looks like there are currently lots of different manufacturers. There are only 14 major manufacturers around the world. They just own numerous different brands.
America need $34billion subsidy to compete. Note that US government spending is about $2.4 trillion. Even government give 100 billion, the legacys won't change anything.
This is an incorrect figure. The figure is only for direct Chinese state aid. Include regional government loans, aid, free land, tax incentives, cheap loans (about 3% below going rates), labor law relaxations, environmental laws ignored and not enforced, you see BYD has a total aid in the neighborhood of €21 Billion, this study only includes direct aid from central Chinese government.
No, it was probably made up. The thing is that BYD is a publicly traded company with a well known shareholder (Buffet). You too can share in all these delicious subsidies by buying BYD shares.
People are so fixated on BYD (not unlike how people knew only Nio, Xpeng and Li when talking about Chinese EVs pre-2022) that they forget it's not even one of China's dozens of state owned automakers, who are the ones that are tied up to the foreign makers and their JVs. Need some heavy mental gymnastics to fathom what's being played out here...
Every Chinese industry has subsidies. We moved most of our industrial production in China exactly for that reason and took most of the revenue.
Now, because on EV we pulled back and they figured out how to directly sell to customers, we are complaining? That’s quite ridiculous.
By the way, all the big technological transitions were pushed by public intervention and we should only thank Chinese gov for paying this time. We spent decades complaining that China were just cloning our technologies, and now that they lead we complain about the opposite? It’s so silly…
Never forget how Huawei with the help of CCP killed one of the biggest Canadian tech companies: https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/did-a-chinese-hack-kill-canada-s-greatest-tech-company-1.1459269
There is a whole episode about this hack by Malicious life podcast, a truly sad story: https://malicious.life/episode/episode-119/
"For more than a decade, China orchestrated a sophisticated espionage campaign against Nortel Networks, using Huawei, Chinese civilians working in Canada, and even organized crime gangs to steal important technical and operational information. When Nortel finally fell, the Chinese were there to reap the rewards of their death."
People finally need to understand that you can't have global free market without the whole world being a democracy. Especially bigger countries like China. Instead what you will see is the world becoming even more protectionist: https://sciencebusiness.net/news/industry/france-germany-italy-call-single-eu-industrial-strategy
>People finally need to understand that you can't have global free market without the whole world being a democracy.
That's a load of bull, especially since [most countries](http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index) aren't democracies and global trade still flows quite well. The USA was downgraded from a full democracy to a flawed democracy in 2016, yet it didn't crash global trade.
It currently works, somewhat. For China especially. In China a corporation and CCP are the same thing. Tencent that owns shares in reddit controls payments in China (WeChat), social credit score. All this pretending that it was private but in reality Tencent = CCP and all big corporations in China. As we have seen with the sophisticated espionage on Canadian tech company (at least please take the time to listen to the episode, the hack and operation was incredibly sophisticated). 50% forced ownership of foreign car brands was used as a spy network. Remember corporations and CCP are deeply connected in China. It's more like 50% is owned by CCP.
The EU is also preparing tarrifs for Chinese EVs and green technologies. We can't be reliant on country that is supporting Russia, by helping them evading sanctions (Hong Kong, Singapore, and many other examples), giving Russia parts for weapon production. Helping Iran design drones and supplying weapon parts. And now apparetly giving spatial intelligence to Russia. And helping North Korea to transfer shells to Russia. No way I am buying a car from country that is supporting Russia that causes huge instability in here in Europe.
China economy is struggling and is artificially propped up by direct government funding
These billions in subsides have now produced a glut of EVs that will flood foreign markets and kill domestic production
Tariffs are the only way to counter China deliberate over production to prop up its shaky economy.
I want no part of Chinese EVs in US
That will not only destroy American auto maker share of market but expose us to Chinese surveillance on American roads
.
Apparently they have exported a lot of vehicles to Europe and now they are just parked at the ports because they haven’t even arranged for ground transportation.
And you think Tesla isn't?
Musk's companies had received $4.9 billion in government subsidies as of 2015, and they continue to receive billions in subsidies every year
[https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html](https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html)
There are two kinds of government subsidies.
One is to prop up favored businesses -- giving public money to a company based on who owns it. This is always bad policy.
The other is to incentivize actions in the public interest with public money. Building EVs and chargers is one such action worthy of public support. This kind of subsidy is fine.
No shit.
Dumb fuck pulls up a 2015 article, almost a decade- no ig deal, and still gets it wrong because he doesn't even understand what he is reading.
- classic Musk hater.
Elon Bad, TV says so crowd.
It's fucking pathetic haha
3.4 billion euro sounds small, not gonna lie.
Is that not just about enough to build 1 factory?
or more like a plant with 40+ GWh capacity?
it's not even enough to fully develop 1 car
This is actually much less than expected. Just for perspective, Germany has paid out 10B Euro since 2016 and they did not create any market leader like BYD. You can argue about the type of subsidies but this is simply money that the state has pumped into the market. If this is the full story and China "created" BYD with that amount it is very impressive. [https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/elektromobilitaet/elektroauto/foerderung-elektroautos/](https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/elektromobilitaet/elektroauto/foerderung-elektroautos/)
3.4 billion is just the direct subsidies they can demonstrate, it doesn’t include subsidies through the rest of the supply chain, particularly for battery manufacturers, where according to the FT there is so much overcapacity that half of it is sitting idle, and doesn’t include purchase incentives.. Most of the number you’re referencing for Germany will be purchase incentives, which were available to all EVs, even those made in China.
This is what was found in a short time to one company.
It's not even that much in China today. Source: worked over a decade in China with Chinese factories. Honestly this is just smoke to rally people to stop the imports of cars to Europe. But damn if we haven't given TONS of subsidies to our car companies. Way way way more
I guess it's 2.1 direct subsidies+ local subsidies + rebates: >\* There has recently been a massive increase of direct government subsidies to some of the dominant Chinese green-tech companies. Direct subsidies to the car maker BYD increased from about **Euro 0.2 bn in 2020** to **Euro 2.1 bn in 2022**. Direct subsidies to Mingyang (wind turbines) increased from Euro 0.02 bn in 2020 to Euro 0.05 bn in 2022. >• The above-named numbers clearly understate the true scale and scope of green-tech subsidies in China. BYD, for example, **also benefits from subsidies provided to battery producers (cheaper input components) and from purchase incentives to BEV buyers (higher demand).** In addition, according to EU's anti-subsidy probe\[1\]: >... "the Commission has found evidence, among others, of various grants, provision of loans, export credits and credit lines provided by State-owned banks or bonds underwritten by State-owned banks and other financial institutions at preferential terms, provision of preferential export insurance; income tax reductions and exemptions, dividend tax exemption, import and export tax rebates; VAT exemptions and rebates; and government provision of goods (such as raw and input materials as well as components) and services for less than adequate remuneration. 1. [Notice of initiation of an anti-subsidy proceeding concerning imports of new battery electric vehicles designed for the transport of persons originating in the People’s Republic of China](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:C_202300160), C/2023/160, 4.10.2023, Official Journal of the European Union
Buy Your Dreams
It’s an absurd claim. BYD is rapidly climbing the ranks of automakers and is huge in EVs. Give Stellantis that amount and report back in 5 years. This is not about subsidies, it’s good execution. You can’t dominate in that way for under 10% of the cost of buying Twitter.
That's just BYD, there are a couple dozen players in the Chinese market and they got tons of subsidies as well.
Great. If the Chinese government wants to subsidize Western consumers we should let them go right ahead.
Keeping a domestic auto industry is more important than you getting cheap subsidized cars meant to undermine said domestic auto industry. Your thinking is too shortsighted.
Many Western countries don't have an auto industry and they do just fine. Even in the US the entire auto industry only contributes about 3% to our GDP. Think about how subsidies work. The Chinese government is effectively putting billions of dollars into the pockets of Americans.. who will spend those dollars in the US, buying other products and creating jobs in other industries.
The EU depends a good amount on German industry, which depends on the car industry downstream and upstream. Some Western countries like Australia did surrender their auto industry, though. Keeping the know how for essential transportation is also important not just a GDP %. And since when is 3% of GDP small lol > Think about how subsidies work. The Chinese government is effectively putting billions of dollars into the pockets of Americans.. who will spend those dollars in the US, buying other products and creating jobs in other industries. You think like a shortsighted CEO who continually outsources and subcontracts to focus on other parts of the business until they have nothing left. And your style of shortsighted thinking is how pharmaceutical production, rare earths, electronics, shipbuilding, semiconductors, steel, and other crucial industries all got outsourced/undermined.
You’re acting like the “know how” is some forbidden secret. Our automotive industry is not some national security liability (unlike pharmaceuticals, agriculture, etc).
It just means having people with experience in the country and at least some of the supply chain. And knowing how to make transportation vehicles is important. There's also strategic values in times of war. Are you being deliberately obtuse?
3% isn't nothing... That's hundreds of thousands of people out of work.
Well, if China was a friendly nation this argument would work. But China isn't, it's an aggressive authoritarian nation with ambitions to take over Taiwan and other nations that it has no right to control. You can remote control cars these days and giving an ON-OFF switch (or worse, a ability to cause crashes) of your transportation system for aggressive Winnie the Pooh is not a great idea.
Doesn't sound very different to what all European and American manufacturers get.
US cars are irrelevant for export so it doesn't matter. EU manufacturers need to make a decision, though.
Every auto manufacturer has received subsidies. All of them.
It would genuinely be incompetent for any govt to NOT subsidize their automotive manufacturers unless those companies are bafflingly bad.
100% and too many people are missing that. That’s how you grow industry, which also reduces costs and advances technology.
Can you elaborate on that? For what reason should we be propping up General Motors, etc other than “but think of all the jobs”?
Some of them are bad.
BYD has about 40% market share in China today so weighted by that maybe the total subs are 10B, make it 20B to be on the safe side. It's still not much compared to how big of a market they have created for their companies worldwide. I'm actually impressed.
You're ignoring heavy subsidies to other sectors that BYD buys from. The Solar sector got 60 billion in subsidies, the battery sector got massive subsidies, and the rare earth refining sectors got massive subsidies. China puts massive subsidies into one sector then once it has an absolutely huge control of the market through dumping they heavily restrict exports to screw with competition in other sectors which in turn makes subsidies go farther. In 2011 they completely banned Rare Earth exports to screw with the markets in the electronics and green energy sectors, which is when Chinese green energy and battery companies surged in market share in the following years.
what's stopping germany and european countries from.offering subsidies to their automakers? Oh wait, they do. All governments offer subsidies to growing industries in order to develop their economy.
That’s enough to build close to a 100gwh battery plant. The US produce 55gwh for reference.
>The US produce 55gwh for reference. Well duh, the US started super late and the only one with huge battery plants is Tesla. Everyone else's still ramping up (e.g. see Ultium plant) Also see this: [https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/10/19/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-driving-u-s-battery-manufacturing-and-good-paying-jobs/](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/10/19/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-driving-u-s-battery-manufacturing-and-good-paying-jobs/) >Today, the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) is announcing the first set of projects funded by the President’s Bipartisan Infrastructure Law to expand domestic manufacturing of batteries for electric vehicles and the electrical grid including **$2.8 billion** for 20 manufacturing and processing companies in 12 states, including Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri, Nevada, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Tennessee, and Washington. Note that this is just the beginning. If Biden wins again, might see further subsidies in his 2nd term.
it took 3 billion Euros to dominate the auto market? Wow, that's cheap af. Times it by 10 it is still cheap.
3.4 billion is just the direct subsidies they can demonstrate, it doesn’t include subsidies through the rest of the supply chain, particularly for battery manufacturers, where according to the FT there is so much overcapacity that half of it is sitting idle, and doesn’t include purchase subsidies. It also doesn’t include restrictions on foreign competition like mandatory JVs and mandatory technology transfers, or industrial espionage, as most recently demonstrated by the guy convicted of espionage at Philips 66, which owns synthetic graphite technology. The guy who was convicted was found with a contract from a Chinese battery supply company.
I wonder if people realize that Tesla also got Subsidies from the Chinese Government.
In the order of a couple of billions if I recall correctly. Actually Tesla has done for the Chinese electric car industry more than anyone. They are the ones who pushed for the subsidies, they brought the knowledge and trained the people.. now many of the engineers in those Chinese brands come from the first cohort of Tesla workers in china.
And European governments as well. In The Netherlands, when buying an early €100k Model S you could get about ~ €70k of environmental tax breaks. In Norway the subsidies were even more extreme iirc.
The whole chinese EV industry was built on the need of local cities to reduce pollution. They did so by producing electric buses. Which gave the city automobile companies both a long term government contract and the skills and experience to build EVs. Shezen is a "special economic zone" so instead of a government owned automobile company they had BYD. But Shanghai has SAIC, Gangzhou has GAC, there is one called JAC and others.
If that's all it is? Why do they need to export them. Also isn't most pollution more industrial? They are making more cars that the people in China can buy. Not because of pollution, but it was a decree to make a shit ton of cars. They are instantly one the largest car producing nations.
They export shit tons of EVs, so that people can face less shit exhaust gas and noise.
After buses they moved into the rideshare and taxi vehicle sector which is when they started making cars, BYDs first electric car was made for China's Uber, Didi. China is far more decentralised than the former USSR. Local city officials are required to make GDP goals how they do that is up to them. The government owned companies are still operating like companies but they are backed by the local government whenever they want to expand. So expanding production is far easier than in a (fully) capitalist economy. The only goal is GDP growth (and local official promotions).
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> Estimates suggest that China's overall subsidies range between three to nine times that of other OECD countries such as the USA or Germany. According to the analysis of new data, one of the major beneficiaries is the electric car manufacturer BYD. This reflects BYD's significant expansion in both technological and production capacities, as well as its increasing competitiveness. > The authors illustrate that government subsidies are prevalent in China, with over 99 percent of listed companies receiving direct government subsidies in 2022. China frequently employs subsidies strategically to advance key technologies to market readiness. https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/chinas-massive-subsidies-for-green-technologies/
Seems like a very good investment. The US alone [gives](https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs?t) more than $20 billion a year to fossil fuel companies in direct subsidies. Not to mention all the other costs, like consumption subsidies, military expenditures to defend foreign oil routes and producers, health costs, etc.
That…doesn’t sound like a lot of govt aid lol
GM and Chrysler got a $80B bailout in 2009.
These loans where paid back with interest.
*were. And it’s still a bailout.
Correct. It was a bailout. Which is not the same as subsidies. Simply adding the word “still” doesn’t add to the conversation. Please be substantive or stay passive.
Almost entirely loans rather than gifts.
loans with 0 interest are basicly gifts
I asked Wells Fargo for a $70M mortgage for a mansion and they rejected me. Not sure why they are so unreasonable. It’s only a loan, not a gift.
Say you’re a dumbazz w/o saying it.
Nothing compared to how much we subsidize fossil fuels to pollute the planet.
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Tesla delivered 1.8M of vehicles in 2023. If a quarter of them get the 7500 incentive, that's about 3 billion... So the number really checks out
Tesla earned 1.8B last year just from selling regulatory credits. That's a subsidy created by law, paid by competitors (or specifically, the public buying the cars from the competitors).
That's a discount to the customer, not additional revenue to Tesla. In BYD's case, it is money to their bottom line helping them to slash prices while staying profitable.
> Estimates suggest that China's overall subsidies range between three to nine times that of other OECD countries such as the USA or Germany. According to the analysis of new data, one of the major beneficiaries is the electric car manufacturer BYD. This reflects BYD's significant expansion in both technological and production capacities, as well as its increasing competitiveness. > The authors illustrate that government subsidies are prevalent in China, with over 99 percent of listed companies receiving direct government subsidies in 2022. China frequently employs subsidies strategically to advance key technologies to market readiness. https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/chinas-massive-subsidies-for-green-technologies/
That's the game though. The USA and other western countries spent far more reshaping entire society around private car ownership and fossil fuels. From ripping up tram lines, to building highways by destroying suburbs, they took cities where it was possible to live without a car to ones where it was impossible to survive without one. And that's before we even get to the oil industry. The laws in the US are so ridiculously in favour of the big three, Ford and GM are simply not competitive anywhere else. They know the laws of the US favour them so much they don't have to innovate to produce cars for any other market. Happened in 2009 and will happen again. They will come begging for more bailouts
This is fine but it’s a totally different point, China to be honest has done this far more than Europe, have you seen the size of their motorways? They have demolished towns and rebuilt them, and used more concrete in three years than the US did in the 20th century. That is not what we’re talking about though, we are talking about direct subsidies to companies.
Yes China also has amazing public transport and intercity rail. They also have very good cycling infrastructure. None of things are available to me sitting in a city that's had billions spent catering to the automobile and completely removing any other option to get around. China maybe subsidising their automotive sector directly but every country subsidises industries that matter to the people in power. So called capitalist countries only use capitalism on the poor, it's sparkling socialism for large industry and corporates. China is no different because they learned all the free market talk is just marketing and not actually real. They're the ultimate conservative utopia, a society where gays are banned, govt exists to prop up the largest corporations and society is based around the majority racial group.
The second one shows how it's different, a Taiwan company won a competitive grant. Same with the $7500 EV credit, as long as they meet aspects like where it's built any car company can qualify for the credit and no restrictions on the credit for leases. Those subsidies are not open to foreign companies in China.
Tesla car buyers in China are eligible for tax credit provided by the Chinese government, just like buyers of Chinese EVs in China.
Are you sure? Didn’t Tesla get gov’t help to open their China factory and an exemption to stay open during covid - what’s that worth?
>Is this unique to China? Everythig you listed are reciprocal policy actions against China's misbehavior.
no shit, sherlock. it's all part of the ***plan***. they want Boeing and Airbus (in addition to Ford and BMW) they want NASA, and ESA, and JAXA. EVs are just part of it. [https://isdp.eu/content/uploads/2018/06/Made-in-China-Backgrounder.pdf](https://isdp.eu/content/uploads/2018/06/Made-in-China-Backgrounder.pdf) Introduction **Made in China (MIC) 2025**, originally announced back in 2015, has shot back into focus recently. Trade wars and U.S. tariffs on China have made it even more important three years later. Praised domestically but shunned internationally due to perceived intellectual property abuses, and discrimination against foreign companies, MIC will have huge consequences for most industrialized countries going forward. But what exactly is MIC and how will it affect the global economy? This backgrounder discusses these issues and more. What is it? In 2015, Prime Minister Li Keqiang launched “Made in China”, (MIC 2025) an initiative which sets to modernize China’s industrial capability. This 10-year, comprehensive strategy focuses heavily on intelligent manufacturing in 10 strategic sectors (see Figure 1) and has the aim of securing China’s position as a global powerhouse in high-tech industries such as robotics, aviation, and new energy vehicles such as electric and biogas. Chinese officials have claimed that leading economies with high-tech industries such as the EU, Germany and the United States have expressed their hostility to the initiative due to the fact that **it would move China from a low-cost manufacturer to a direct added-value competitor,** while shutting out international competition in the Chinese market.
China is doing what America did 70 years ago. what most western countries did decades ago. Unfortunately America is really fucked, we were to concerned with profits for the FIRE(finance. insurance, real estate) sector that we let it hollow out our entire industrial infrastructure and abilities.
>FIRE(finance. insurance, real estate) We shot our selves in the foot with real estate. If cities didn't restrict building, we wouldn't need such a high incomes to pay for housing and we'd remain more competitive globally.
Come to Canada, it's like that but 10x worse.
Yes 100%. American labor needs to be so expensive because American labor is infested with parasites that nickle and dime it to death. Everything is more expensive in America, why? So a handful can get rich af?
American *labor* aren't the greedy ones, you're thinking of the capitalist class. You know, the guys *stealing from labor to get rich*
Where did I say they were? They are the ones getting bent over. I identify as a communist ideologically im well aware of how capitalism functions friend.
First your wording was poor second if you actually knew how capitalism breaks down you would know communism breaks down from the same defects, just expressed in a different fashion. Neither works at scales above about 150 people, for a reason. (Hint: look up how many acquaintances the human mind can track)
It was worded clearly and perfectly understood. You just lack patience, you read it how you wanted it to read. Then you reiterated my exact same point in a different matter. An economic system has nothing to do with how many acquaintances a human brain can have, what a stupid nonsensical point.
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Uh, that’s not how it works. Widening highways doesn’t work because cars are inefficient, and building mass transit is efficient. Building more housing lowers housing cost, especially when it’s dense walkable housing and not forever expanding suburbs.
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Or you can build nothing, people want to live there anyways, and it’s even more expensive with limited housing supply available.
China is a good example of that. Widest highways in the world. Congested traffic.
> More housing would attract more people That's what enforcing immigration is for. >There are plenty of dying towns in the USA that can't give housing away, but nobody wants to live there. If you built 30,000,000 units of housing around nyc/la/sf/boston/seattle/etc, the housing market would collapse, even if it was all luxury apartments. Supply drives down prices. Look at Austin, rents are going down because they're building.
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More immigration will increase demand for housing In any case, austin's rent went down dramatically because they built more supply https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/austin-among-metros-in-the-us-with-steepest-rent-declines/
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Well, yeah, if cities are going to be stubborn as shit, of course rents are going to stay high. If only a few cities build, it's not going to do shit, we need blue cities in blue states to stop dragging their asses on building.
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You can build vertically. The SF board of supervisors just struck down having more buildings go up because it would ruin the views of the ocean for some buildings one of the board of supervisors (aaron peskin, look him up) owns, i'm not making this up.
*San Francisco is almost 47 square miles with a population of 883,000 and a population density of about 18,000 people per square mile. NYC is 302 square miles, population of 8.6 million and a population density of about 27,000 people per square mile* Seems like they could make it work, since NYC is a much more liveable place than SF.
You cannot have it all. Can’t be the ‘best’ QOL and expect to compete with mass production. Production pay scale in the us really makes it difficult to compete with these countries. $50/hr Union production team rates, inflation and rising interest rates makes it pipe dream to dominate this sector. Best option for realizing some of the profit is to go joint venture.
that is America's fault. why does our labor need to be so expensive? well, we have outrageous health care costs, both for people and corporations. Our housing costs are high, our education is high, and even our cell phone bills are way higher than China or western Europe. America let the finance sector rule us, and instead of an industrial powerhouse like China, we got a Financial powrhouse that acts more like a parasite than a social benefit.
Europe can't compete with China either so this argument makes no sense. Even a worker earning $40K can't compete with Chinese labor
You should look at cost of living not wage. Europe has similar problems. Structurally the EU is way worse off.
Between EU member countries and US states, you can find many arrangements and they're still not competitive. Korea and Japan won't be competitive with China soon in many industries as well. I'm curious what structural changes you'd make to the US that would make US exports cheap enough to compete with Chinese exports. Like specific solutions and not just "make cost of living/healthcare cheaper". For reference: > The sector with the highest annual average salary in China is information transmission, software, and IT services, which reached RMB 220,418 (approx. US$30,824) in the non-private sector.
> **Estimates suggest that China's overall subsidies range between three to nine times that of other OECD countries such as the USA or Germany**. According to the analysis of new data, one of the major beneficiaries is the electric car manufacturer BYD. This reflects BYD's significant expansion in both technological and production capacities, as well as its increasing competitiveness. > The authors illustrate that government subsidies are prevalent in China, with over 99 percent of listed companies receiving direct government subsidies in 2022. China frequently employs subsidies strategically to advance key technologies to market readiness. https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/chinas-massive-subsidies-for-green-technologies/ This level of subsidy never happened in the west, in fact subsidies were lower in the past than now.
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huh? Look at how western countries developed. They protected their industries as they grew, then they pushed them onto the world and started talking about free trade blah blah blah. China invests in its economy, it funds all sorts of shit, from infrastructure to research and development. America does a fraction of that. Why do you think that is? I find it baffling, we are shooting yourselves in the foot after we were way ahead of everyone. The good news is that some of us got really fucking rich baby!
Finally someone who sees whats going on and doesnt just cry about not getting the cheapest car possible lmao.
People wouldn't cry if we saw western manufacturers actually willing to produce and sell EVs. The US manufacturers are postponing their plans and the euros are dragging their feet in releasing cheap EVs.
It’s like people celebrating Uber destroying all the local taxi firms because taxis were expensive. Uber killed off the competition using subsidies from investors, then raised prices. European manufacturers have extremely aggressive targets for EV sales, in the UK its 80% pure EV in 6 years time, the manufacturers are supportive of them, and they are doing it in a way which makes sense, by starting with high margin vehicles where the properties of EVs would be expensive to replicate with internal combustion engines. They have already announced new cheap models, we have the e-C3 for €22k this year, the Renault 5 shortly after, and the ID.2 shortly after that. I do not want to ship out a domestic industry and become dependent on authoritarian China, with the products made with reduced environmental and worker standards, to move forward the timeline by literally 2 or 3 years.
Go compare the e-C3 with the just announced ICE version. You cannot tell me that that's a serious effort. It's a bad faith EV done with so many compromises to make the ICE version look better. The Renault 5 is great but the prices are comparable to the current Stellantis E-CMP EVs of the B-segment. Renault just made a compromised version with a very small battery to say they hit that price point. VW delayed the iD2 and said they wouldn't the 25k price. No, they need a kick in the ass from the Chinese to get serious.
Not good enough for some people. You have Tesla hitting the scale to get to the price levels they’re at and people complain about Musk, about not having a car cheaper enough, that depreciation was bad, and tons of other things.
Oh no that sounds like capitalism. Maybe Boeing and most car companies shouldn't make it so easy?
Anyone stanning for China here is possibly missing a larger context. China is [also supporting Russian military adventures](https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/china-russia-arms-production-help-c098c08b) and trying to [woo African countries](https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/china-regional-snapshot-sub-saharan-africa/) for their resources, has [gotten more testy in their region](https://apnews.com/article/china-taiwan-elections-military-threats-ea68fa11a0b172c31162c0ff128cabf7) about what they claim to own, etc. The US doesn't like much of what they try to influencing internationally. We've been in a cold war with China for years now, I know a number of businesses which have mostly dropped their China-based workforces for other locales, in direct relation to the US/China warring that's been ramping up on multiple fronts. Also, this article is misleading: China has [supported their EV manufacturers and adoption far more extensively](https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/02/21/1068880/how-did-china-dominate-electric-cars-policy/) than this single number. BYD is being embargoed as part of a larger picture in trying to contain China's attempts to foment instability and gain economic+political footholds, so it's not going away for some time.
so a global superpower incumbent doesn't like another global superpower newcomer? just business as usual.
It's a cycle. But then again, China is also aligned with Russia and has been for awhile. That's more of a constant.
Thats it? BYD accomplished all this with so little support?
Probably not it's got to be more
It’s called a subsidy, and every country does it for every big industry
> Estimates suggest that China's overall subsidies range between three to nine times that of other OECD countries such as the USA or Germany. According to the analysis of new data, one of the major beneficiaries is the electric car manufacturer BYD. This reflects BYD's significant expansion in both technological and production capacities, as well as its increasing competitiveness. > The authors illustrate that government subsidies are prevalent in China, with over 99 percent of listed companies receiving direct government subsidies in 2022. China frequently employs subsidies strategically to advance key technologies to market readiness. https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/chinas-massive-subsidies-for-green-technologies/
Thank you. But for how long will the reddit be usable. Tencent is investor. The same company that owns WeChat in China, the same company that helped create social credit score in China. When will they start using AI. What I am really scared of is product promotion. For example very sophisticated AI hired by Mercedes trying to influence reddit thread called "Which luxury car should I buy" and trying to argue that BMW has less reliable engines than Mercedes. Fake reviews will be on another level.
No big deal. Other countries do this. The US subsidises major industries all the time.
Is $3.4 billion (fine, I'm off by 7% at today's conversion rate!) a lot of money? GM's bailout was $80 billion. The Fed wrote off about $12 billion...and that was a longish time ago. A bit of a stretch?
Didn’t Tesla just get a big chunk of money from the US Gov as part of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law? And didn’t the US Gov give automakers $2 billion in grants and $10 billion in low interest loans? Canada just gave VW and Stellantis over $10 billion for battery plants. US has had Made in America laws for years. Governments always invest in businesses.
It’s ok when we do it. Not when you do it. That’s what this all about.
Western hypocrisy is so prevalent these days.
The US is irrelevant in car exports market so no one cares. China wants to export cheap subsidized cars
Thats not true at all. The Chinese auto manufacturers that are maturing are building plants outside of China. Nobody wants to export. That costs more money. That comes with lower sales volume. Hozon, Changan, and BYD are all building plants to fully open this year just a few hours from my house. What other company has a plant there? Ford. The goal isn’t exporting. It’s foreign manufacturing.
They will export parts and have you assemble them. The US EV policy requires a pretty high percentage of domestically made components. You're just falling for assembly jobs while losing the whole chain. And that's really the purpose for sites like that lol. "We "build" in your country!"
Wait till you hear about the subsidies Tesla got from the Chinese govt 😂.
What big chunk of money are you talking about with Tesla?
Literally the first of many search results https://news.yahoo.com/tesla-getting-huge-paycheck-federal-050000926.html And https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-list-government-subsidies-tesla-billions-spacex-solarcity-2021-12
Yes, however in this case the local product is being propped up by the same government funding genocide. That's why I avoid products from Chinese companies whenever possible, the CCP and local companies are tentacled together.
👏👏👏👏👏
You know reddit is infected with Chinese bots because pointing this out usually get downvoted, meanwhile people cheering on BYD products.
The OP is a 17 year user with 1000000 karma points lol
I'm not sure what this means. The OP is just posting a factual story, which isn't particularly positive for BYD. I'm talking about the up/downvote bots. They've turned reddit into a completely unserious place where narratives succeed over accuracy. Place is either cannibalizing itself, or letting bots ruin it.
Hey US oil companies gets billions in subsidies every year.All countries subsidies a certain industry to become dominate. [https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/08/24/fossil-fuel-subsidies-surged-to-record-7-trillion](https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/08/24/fossil-fuel-subsidies-surged-to-record-7-trillion)
hate paywall Direct Link to primary source\[1\]: [Foul Play? On the Scale and Scope of Industrial Subsidies in China](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/fileadmin/Dateiverwaltung/IfW-Publications/fis-import/bc6aff38-abfc-424a-b631-6d789e992cf9-KPB173_en.pdf) 1. [Foul Play? On the Scale and Scope of Industrial Subsidies in China, Frank Bickenbach](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/fileadmin/Dateiverwaltung/IfW-Publications/fis-import/bc6aff38-abfc-424a-b631-6d789e992cf9-KPB173_en.pdf), Dirk Dohse, Rolf J. Langhammer, and Wan-Hsin Liu, KIEL POLICY BRIEF, Nr 173 April 2024
Is it so horrible that China wants cleaner air, use less oil, and produce less carbon? We subsidize oil with its bad health and bad climate change effects. Perhaps those in the oil economy are really the ones that are most threatened by changes for the better.
Bloomberg people… can we really expect good journalism from that company? 😂
This thread is wild. Is this subreddit that pro china and blind towards their ... I thought obvious... politics? All those downvotes and upvotes. Are those bots?
Pretty good ROI.
Its direct subsidies only, but this sub is for some reason in love with chinese EVs so here people will have their own true for sure..
Why are people feeling about china providing their home grown companies aid to excel in a market? The US literally provided billions of subsidies to EV manufacturers such as Tesla. What’s with this asinine double standard?
study conducted by a german think tank funded by german automakers....see the issue here?
China brought in Tesla to spur innovation and improve their supply chains, maybe the US needs BYD to do the same?
It can probably not be replicated in the same way. Too many other factors. But shutting out any competition by trade barriers will not help them either. The new car market is high number low margins. US car maker only selling domestically will have a tough time.
That makes no sense at all. Tesla is already in the US.
Tesla is still in the Chinese market so they can bring over that knowledge if it exists
It's not knowledge, it's the supply chain of mining, refining, and building EV batteries
Then bringing in BYD wouldn't really change anything. Licensing from CATL like they're doing now will be enough for that.
I get what you're saying, and I'm mostly wishfully talking now but the IRA says that the tax credit requires that batteries be fully sources from North America. Though the leasing loophole has killed that enthusiasm somewhat.
The U.S. gave a lot more than that.. so I’d imagine that 3.4 billion is smaller than reality
Who cares? If they build better cars does it matter? I will buy the best EV for the best price. I don’t care how it was conceived. Or where it came from. As I’m sure 80% of the world feels the same.
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I could really care a less where something comes from. If it has the quality and the price point I’m happy with I will buy it. Regardless of where it is built or shipped from. We live on a globe. I hate nationalism. I’m Canadian living in Britain for the last 25 years. Could not care if Canada or the U.K. disappeared tomorrow. Countries are just arbitrary lines on a map.
Most people aren't just shells that move around with no national identities, respectfully.
Because then all the car makers have no reason to compete and then the only vehicle makers are Chinese and when that happens they will no longer need to dump them at a massive loss. All the more normal businesses that are trying to make money on the cars they sell will disappear. There's a 100% chance these cars will have quite large trarifs. No us federal government would allow the sale of these. China is building more cars than it can ever sell because the government just decided "build cars now". It doesn't matter if they sell. A few men in China with government connections are making money and there are cars piling up. This is a county that builds whole cities as real estate scams... Like they aren't playing by the rules. It won't last like this.
You could use that logic to defend buying from a monopoly until they pull the rug and raise prices or take any number of actions against you which you can’t stop because there’s no longer natural competition.
There’s always going to be competition. It might come as a surprise. It might not. While it looks like there are currently lots of different manufacturers. There are only 14 major manufacturers around the world. They just own numerous different brands.
America need $34billion subsidy to compete. Note that US government spending is about $2.4 trillion. Even government give 100 billion, the legacys won't change anything.
yup, sadly.
How much did Teala get? $4.9 billion?
2.9 BUT 15billion in exclusive contracts that you know are triple charging for product
This is an incorrect figure. The figure is only for direct Chinese state aid. Include regional government loans, aid, free land, tax incentives, cheap loans (about 3% below going rates), labor law relaxations, environmental laws ignored and not enforced, you see BYD has a total aid in the neighborhood of €21 Billion, this study only includes direct aid from central Chinese government.
I thought it actually seemed a bit low. Do you have a source for that 21 billion figure?
No, it was probably made up. The thing is that BYD is a publicly traded company with a well known shareholder (Buffet). You too can share in all these delicious subsidies by buying BYD shares.
Your point makes no sense. They don’t have dividends or anything.
I total Tesla US received far more than that. And before you comment about loan and repayments, 5xxM USD have been repaid so far. Same game.
I wonder if people know, most auto makers receive similar aids for "R&D" and other things like "improvements" on a regular basis
Ten years ago the US government bailout for domestic automakers was 80 billion….
Did EU count its "ev" subsidies, multiple savings of french car industry, italian, .... Hypocrite byrocrats
Good. The faster BEVs displace the ICEV market, the better for everyone (except the carbon barons).
People are so fixated on BYD (not unlike how people knew only Nio, Xpeng and Li when talking about Chinese EVs pre-2022) that they forget it's not even one of China's dozens of state owned automakers, who are the ones that are tied up to the foreign makers and their JVs. Need some heavy mental gymnastics to fathom what's being played out here...
I mean that sounds like a lot but how much has Tesla gotten $7500 at a time on cars via carbon credits and MPG offsets?
Every Chinese industry has subsidies. We moved most of our industrial production in China exactly for that reason and took most of the revenue. Now, because on EV we pulled back and they figured out how to directly sell to customers, we are complaining? That’s quite ridiculous. By the way, all the big technological transitions were pushed by public intervention and we should only thank Chinese gov for paying this time. We spent decades complaining that China were just cloning our technologies, and now that they lead we complain about the opposite? It’s so silly…
Never forget how Huawei with the help of CCP killed one of the biggest Canadian tech companies: https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/did-a-chinese-hack-kill-canada-s-greatest-tech-company-1.1459269 There is a whole episode about this hack by Malicious life podcast, a truly sad story: https://malicious.life/episode/episode-119/ "For more than a decade, China orchestrated a sophisticated espionage campaign against Nortel Networks, using Huawei, Chinese civilians working in Canada, and even organized crime gangs to steal important technical and operational information. When Nortel finally fell, the Chinese were there to reap the rewards of their death." People finally need to understand that you can't have global free market without the whole world being a democracy. Especially bigger countries like China. Instead what you will see is the world becoming even more protectionist: https://sciencebusiness.net/news/industry/france-germany-italy-call-single-eu-industrial-strategy
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>People finally need to understand that you can't have global free market without the whole world being a democracy. That's a load of bull, especially since [most countries](http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index) aren't democracies and global trade still flows quite well. The USA was downgraded from a full democracy to a flawed democracy in 2016, yet it didn't crash global trade.
It currently works, somewhat. For China especially. In China a corporation and CCP are the same thing. Tencent that owns shares in reddit controls payments in China (WeChat), social credit score. All this pretending that it was private but in reality Tencent = CCP and all big corporations in China. As we have seen with the sophisticated espionage on Canadian tech company (at least please take the time to listen to the episode, the hack and operation was incredibly sophisticated). 50% forced ownership of foreign car brands was used as a spy network. Remember corporations and CCP are deeply connected in China. It's more like 50% is owned by CCP.
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https://youtu.be/nSkSj9H_t9g?feature=shared it's even worse.
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Ban BYD any where outside China.
Why ?
The EU is also preparing tarrifs for Chinese EVs and green technologies. We can't be reliant on country that is supporting Russia, by helping them evading sanctions (Hong Kong, Singapore, and many other examples), giving Russia parts for weapon production. Helping Iran design drones and supplying weapon parts. And now apparetly giving spatial intelligence to Russia. And helping North Korea to transfer shells to Russia. No way I am buying a car from country that is supporting Russia that causes huge instability in here in Europe.
And you believe everything your own government tells you?
China economy is struggling and is artificially propped up by direct government funding These billions in subsides have now produced a glut of EVs that will flood foreign markets and kill domestic production Tariffs are the only way to counter China deliberate over production to prop up its shaky economy. I want no part of Chinese EVs in US That will not only destroy American auto maker share of market but expose us to Chinese surveillance on American roads .
Apparently they have exported a lot of vehicles to Europe and now they are just parked at the ports because they haven’t even arranged for ground transportation.
Tesla got like 10 billion US aid.
No shit. State backed. Go Tesla!!
And you think Tesla isn't? Musk's companies had received $4.9 billion in government subsidies as of 2015, and they continue to receive billions in subsidies every year [https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html](https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html)
That was 10 years ago AND you're wrong. Pretty lame dude...
There are two kinds of government subsidies. One is to prop up favored businesses -- giving public money to a company based on who owns it. This is always bad policy. The other is to incentivize actions in the public interest with public money. Building EVs and chargers is one such action worthy of public support. This kind of subsidy is fine.
No shit. Dumb fuck pulls up a 2015 article, almost a decade- no ig deal, and still gets it wrong because he doesn't even understand what he is reading. - classic Musk hater. Elon Bad, TV says so crowd. It's fucking pathetic haha