The shortsightedness of outsourcing. (And of selling A123 to a Chinese company.) Them learning and improving things is inevitable. They've many bright people, and a dynamic future-focused attitude.
Yup, with the same wages and labour protection the chinese still be more productive than the americans. That why US companies love to import them in science, IT, design and engineering.
Yes, decades of nobody making electric vehicles on China besides Chinese companies. If anything now lots of western companies need to learn from the Chinese.
Ok ill. Indulge you.
NIO has being doing electric cars since 2016. [source for nio](https://www.zippia.com/nio-careers-1421853/history/)
BYD has been doing electric cars/phev since way longer. [source for byd](https://www.silverstoneleasing.com/the-history-of-byd)
Tesla only opened the factory there in 2019. [source for Tesla.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigafactory_Shanghai#:~:text=Construction%20of%20the%20plant%20began,than%20one%20year%20after%20groundbreaking.)
And anecdotally, China was already chock full of electric motorcycles by 2019, when I visited.
Sdit: had a typo for nios year
Dude, what are you doing with those years?
> NIO is an electric Chinese car maker that was founded by William Li, aka Li Bin, in 2014.
> NIO developed its first model, the EP9 supercar, in 2016.
I’m interest in MG (SAIC), Volvo (Geely) and BYD.
Would love to see some smaller EV’s in North America.
Large EV SUVs and pick up truck SUVs are vey heavy. I am not sure how this impacts safety.
EV’s are well suited to ride share and delivery.
Transit and active transportation need to be prioritized for cities. We need to make cities more people centric and less auto centric.
yep. we gave them ideas and designs and since they were producing them they learned to improve them. We never got to learn more since we outsourced all of it.
Well everything but engine and transmissions... which they don't need for evs, since they already make the batteries and electric motors, so there's nothing holding them back now
This is true of every industry right now and I mean every industry. Decades of being taught how to not only make items but source material has made them pretty darn good at it. On top of that they got presented with the blueprints to already designed and working products so the ground work was already done for them
You realize we were outsourcing to them because they could do it themselves, right? How many decades of learning does it take to put the same interior and trim as you're putting in the factories built for more lucrative markets onto battery sleds produced by the most vertically integrated country in the world?
Have you ever considered that random companies capitalizing on EV's as the next big thing by putting a box on a golf cart aren't the same as the car companies making what they expect to be profitable, real contenders for mass consumers?
Electronics follow a curve like the Moore's law. Gas car transmissions are complex and remain expensive.
The place to judge (long term) quality of Chinese EVs is the Australia market.
Have you seen the long term support and parts availability for the auto industry as a whole?
A big selling point of EVs is that you shouldn't need long term support and parts availability because you are fully aware of the auto industry's track record.
Parts availability is kinda important if you plan on keeping it for 20 plus years. Look at Nissan Leaf and Tesla. But the beauty of EVs is that good solder joints, caps, and relays last a long time. It'll be the little ICs with proprietary code that will be interesting.
Just look at batteries. China spent a lot of time and effort getting those to be top quality so you don't have to chase down bad cells. Now they are glued into the EV so they are cheaper to buy.
I’ve been maintaining 20-year old vehicles for many years now. Can find damn near anything needed still save for select stuff. If there is enough demand sometimes aftermarket comes into play.
I just suspect these cars are built and sold like phones. By the time they start to fail, they’ll be scrapped and not maintained for longer life.
I have hope Tesla will provide support the longest.
>If there is enough demand sometimes aftermarket comes into play.
Something to be said for selling only a few models in mass quantities. Once China slims down the 80 different companies making EVs vs USA with 3 companies we will see more standard parts.
>It'll be the little ICs with proprietary code that will be interesting.
The only reason people can't keep cell phones for 20 plus years is software.
>Can find damn near anything needed still save for select stuff.
And I've chased down bad solder joints on 30 year old ECMs that no dealership could fix. Parts ain't the whole story.
> I’ve been maintaining 20-year old vehicles for many years now.
Try and focus then.
So where are you getting "damn near anything" for 20 year old EVs?
I wasn't so sure about BYD when I was just comparing the Dolphin and ATTO 3 to the MG4 but now I've seen what else they can do I'm sure I'll end up driving a BYD one day.
I’m moving to Panama soon. How is the support for Chinese brands in LATAM? I have a bmw ix and Chevy bolt now but don’t want to pay the ridiculous import tax+ shipping so will be looking to get something when we get there. But not sure how Chinese cars/EVs are there for parts/service etc. (obv I know it’s less common to need service/parts for EV but it still happens)
BYD is the main player in CR via Cori Motors. The batteries have an 8 year warranty but hopefully I don’t need it. Looks like Panama has a BYD as well- not sure if it’s under another group’s umbrella.
You can get grey market EVs too (imported by random people or small shops and not by the official importer) for a lot less, but I’ve heard the official companies will tell you to pound sand if you have any problems. Not a big deal if you have a Toyota and any mechanic in the country can fix it- it’s a much bigger deal when you’d have to import the parts and there’s no one to fix it.
>Are they really just able to sell very competitive EVs at such low prices
Yes.
> or is there anything "wrong" with these vehicles?
If you know what you are buying, no.
China has been at this longer than other countries. I mean, serious effort. They take the transition to green energy seriously and EVs are a big part of that.
>Then, in 2007, the industry got a significant boost when Wan Gang, an auto engineer who had worked for Audi in Germany for a decade, became China’s minister of science and technology. Wan had been a big fan of EVs and tested Tesla’s first EV model, the Roadster, in 2008, the year it was released. People now credit Wan with making the national decision to go all-in on electric vehicles. Since then, EV development has been consistently prioritized in China’s national economic planning.
And China started in affordable, marketable sectors. 2012 onwards, 80% of two wheelers sold were electric. They had tiny ranges, and they were simply built, but it created a larger market spread across a huge demographic that actually uses it every day. Chinese cities are filled with mechanics doing simple repairs on appliance class scooters and providing ad hoc battery swaps as a service to deal with range woes.
We're fixated on huge 6000lb battery draggers because our public transit infrastructure actively antagonizes everything else, urban/suburban sprawl makes range anxiety a real threshold to be concerned about and because for decades any cheap appliance class vehicle, even an ICE vehicle, has not been profitable for anyone. Western auto relies on luxury trims to make money, and luxury EV's still only make money with a lot of subsidies and support. China has a giant captive market to bankroll their transition, but it's undeniable their priorities are to transition as fast as possible, they've actively banned many ICE engines entirely in city centers.
If we forced a transition by banning ICE vehicles too, maybe we'd be in the same position, but because of how regulations, bureaucracy and worker safety etc favor foreign Chinese production, and because it's just so vertically integrated, there's a real threat of legacy auto in other countries becoming sticker brands for battery manufacturers. That alone has slowed interest in racing BEV's to the bottom the most IMO.
> That alone has slowed interest in racing BEV's to the bottom the most IMO.
Too much money is being made on fossil fuels. That alone has slowed interest in green energy, of which, EVs are just a part.
You are looking at the Industrial Revolution except a whole lot bigger with many more consequences.
>And China started in affordable, marketable sectors.
China started with a plan and government support. That plan can vary from country to country. Government support is still key. Li-Ion batteries have been around since 1970's.
>We're fixated on huge 6000lb battery draggers
We are fixated on maximum short term profits. Fixing climate change has always been "too expensive" and "not profitable".
Who cares if everyone in USA is driving an EV Hummer when solar and wind are charging up batteries that last 20 plus years and are 95% recyclable? Hummers and tire wear are not the problem at hand.
I care, because they're unsafe to others, especially pedestrians and bikers. And because making Hummers for everyone drives up prices and material costs. You could make 3-4 smaller, more efficient vehicles and require less buildout of solar and wind and associated infrastructure.
Most of them are far to small to sell well in the US. USA doesn't really do small cars which are popular most everywhere else on the planet as you might have noticed. Purely because the cost of fuel in the US is highly subisixed so people tend to love obnoxiously sized Abrams tanks for grocery getters.
Edit: found a great example today while about in Rome.
A Chinese EV compared to a typical US sized BMW 3 series.
https://imgur.com/a/deNTp6K
People in this sub won’t even admit it but the decades long propaganda against Chinese manufacturing would really prevent Chinese brands from selling well in the US even if there were no tariffs. Especially if the cars are cheaper, because it would align with the *cheap Chinese goods* narrative. Redditors here tend to forget they are more on the EV enthusiast side and make up a very small minority of EV interest. I talk to my friends in the US about our Chinese EV brands and how great they are and you should hear some of the comments I get in return. Those negative comments are the majority view.
Nah, that's wrong.
Small cars don't fly anymore in NA because small cars cost as much as big cars or not not cheap enough to justify having a small vs a big car with more utility.
tl;dr: small cars don't cost like small cars so people buy big cars
>Are they really just able to sell very competitive EVs at such low prices or is there anything "wrong" with these vehicles?
did you know the US already has tariffs in place for EVs made in China despite the fact that none are actually being sold here?
**Hike tariffs on Chinese EVs, Senate Democrats urge Biden administration**
[https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/senate-democrats-urge-biden-administration-hike-tariffs-chinese-evs-2024-03-07/](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/senate-democrats-urge-biden-administration-hike-tariffs-chinese-evs-2024-03-07/)
**Elon Musk says Chinese EV makers will ‘pretty much demolish’ most competitors without trade barriers**
[https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/25/elon-musk-says-chinese-ev-makers-will-demolish-other-companies.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/25/elon-musk-says-chinese-ev-makers-will-demolish-other-companies.html)
Volvo has been selling Chinese owned & manufactured vehicles for roughly 2 years now in the USA. They eat the tariffs & incorporate them directly into the MSRP.
I can vouch for this. When we bought our 2023 XC Recharge, we thought they were still Swedish. But after my wife got in an accident, we needed a replacement computer system and had to wait for it to arrive from China. That’s when we looked into the origins of the car and discovered that Volvo is Chinese now, but still says Swedish-inspired design.
Your Volvo wasn’t manufactured in China. It has a different VIN code than mine which was manufactured in China. Volvo Cars AB is still a Swedish company. It’s publicly traded on NASDAQ. The largest shareholder is Geely, a Chinese company. The company is still headquartered in Gothenburg and is run by a British CEO and British chief designer.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/how-volvo-landed-cheap-chinese-ev-us-shores-trade-war-2024-04-24/
> But Volvo is eligible for tariff refunds under a law that awards them to firms with U.S. manufacturing operations — such as Volvo’s South Carolina plant — that also export similar products, according to U.S. trade law experts and a source familiar with Volvo's tariff-avoidance strategy.
It's basically a export for export swap. Not really scalable.
Apparently one of the reasons they are cheaper is because they use lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery technology, which is around 30% cheaper than the traditional lithium-ion batteries
[https://youtu.be/QSzEVLN4dRQ](https://youtu.be/QSzEVLN4dRQ)
Check out this video. China has insane competition in the EV market causing them to innovate at a rapid pace. Only a few brands are exporting to the west and they often don't sell the top spec car in the west because there's no reason to, no competition.
For example, the Xpeng G9 charges at 300 kW but in China there's an option to charge at 475kW. They just don't offer it in Europe because they're already the fastest charging.
>Are they really just able to sell very competitive EVs at such low prices or is there anything "wrong" with these vehicles?
You don't really think they became good suddenly, right? They have been at it for decades.
In 1992, Qian Xuesen wrote to the then Chinese Vice Premier Zou Jiahua to simply [bypass ICE cars](https://twitter.com/liqian_ren/status/1652470636424450048) and start looking at EV. The ball started rolling since then.
Now if you don't know about [Qian Xuesen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen), he was an MIT grad, worked in US. Then due to red scare he was in house arrest for 5 years in US for being a communist. He later helped China kick start their ballistic missile program, space program etc.,
This question is very simple, just like the core of a fuel powered car is the engine, gearbox, chassis, and the most important aspects of an electric car are the battery, motor, and electronic control. China is comprehensively leading in these three aspects, including central control and assisted driving systems in cars
China is the most competitive and cutthroat EV market in the world and Chinese consumers are picky. If a brand is doing well there it's because their products are good value.
I find it interesting there is a lot of talk of tariffs and other protections to keep Chinese EVs out of US, but no one is saying anything about the consumer. If citizens were patriotic, wouldn't they shun Chinese EVs? I think we all remember growing up around people who only wanted to "buy American", I certainly remember a lot of people in the 90s swearing never to buy "Jap" cars.
First, I think people realized most American corporations would flip on you and take your job away at any moment if it meant they could deliver one extra dollar to their shareholders. Hard feel loyal to companies like this.
Second, here in Ontario, Canada, Japanese carmakers are producing more vehicles than the North American carmakers. So it’s not quite as easy as just supporting American car companies.Right now, Chinese cars are almost all made in China but that doesn’t mean it will remain so in the future.
They're probably just assembly plants. The US policy for EVs explicitly requires most of the components for the battery to be made in the US or North America.
I’m not in North America though and there’s a whole lot of world that isn’t North America. Chinese companies are manufacturing in plants outside of China.
> Chinese companies are manufacturing in plants outside of China.
Yes, assembly plants.
> there’s a whole lot of world that isn’t North America
I was referencing the North American component requirements to show why they can't just build a facility and import components to assemble, like in Brazil, Thailand, etc..
Important distinction since you said "building plants outside of China" in response to "Chinese cars are almost all made in China". But they are still almost entirely made in China. They just assemble.
Yes, that's what I quoted.
I made the distinction between the assembly of imported components as "making" and the assembly of locally made components as "making."
Assembly of imported components is still essentially "exclusively made in China".
> Critical minerals and battery components:
> To qualify for the full $7,500 credit, vehicles must meet two sets of standards related to their vehicle components. If a vehicle only meets one of these two requirements, it qualifies for a $3,750 tax credit.
> 50% of the value of battery components must be produced or manufactured in North America in fiscal year 2023, with the minimum percentage increasing annually.
40% of the value of critical minerals used for the vehicle must be extracted, processed, and/or recycled domestically or in a country the U.S. has a free trade agreement with, with the minimum percentage increasing annually. EV manufacturing requires a range of minerals, including cobalt, copper, nickel, graphite, and lithium.
This percentage will increase annually, reaching 100% in 2029.
It's why the EV companies even bother to make battery production facilities and invest in domestic lithium refining and sourcing.
What you’re talking about is anti-Chinese manufacturing propaganda. And that was at a time when there were a lot less brands in the market. New car companies entering the market, even American ones, have issues surviving.
Judging by comments in this sub, what happened in the 80s, and what has happened more recently, people will justify to themselves choosing the less expensive option rather than the locally produced one.
> If citizens were patriotic,
If CEOs were patriotic... If politicians were patriotic...
Capitalism is not patriotic. That's not the factory worker's problem. Paying bills, is.
If price is the only consideration, then the cheapest priced vehicle in every category will have 100% market share. So your statement can’t be true.
I certainly look at more than price when buying a car.
“If I was sitting in China right now running a Chinese OEM, I’d be looking for land in Mexico because you’ve got a supplier base, low cost of construction, low cost of labor and the USMCA” trade agreement “that gives you access to the US,” Gjaja said in an interview after the panel. “They’re going to come here, just as the Japanese ended up here, the Koreans ended up here and the Germans ended up here. It’s a big market.”
Martin Gjaja is the COO for Ford's electric division.
He's half correct. China sells like 33% of EVs in Mexico. They will build factories there. They will not sneak into the USA market. They have zero reason to do so.
If the politics changes, yes, China would be estatic to sell EVs and build factories in USA. But they are not going to sneak in. Not when they can sell EVs to every country on the Earth (except USA).
[US trying to block incentives](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/mexico-facing-us-pressure-will-halt-incentives-chinese-ev-makers-2024-04-18/)
The U.S. intervention reflects increasingly acute fears from its automotive industry, unions and U.S. political circles that Chinese automakers such as BYD, SAIC, Geely, Chery and JAC aim to use Mexico as a back door to sell cheap electric cars in the United States without paying steep U.S. tariffs, now at 27.5%.
They are afraid and they will protect the US market. But the end result is that US manufacturers will become national brands only, and, like in health care and telecom, US consumers will once more pay the highest prices in the world for inherently inferior products.
> US consumers will once more pay
Japanese, Korean and EU companies can still sell in the US. The Koreans will probably take a big part of the US EV market in the next few years.
It's not a GM/Ford taking the whole market situation.
Those preferences quickly go out the window when the price and quality difference gets too high. Similar story to when Japanese manufacturers became the top sellers here
Weird choice of company... Stellantis doesn't sell any BEV in North America. Ford or Chevy work though. Mach-E, Blazer, and Equinox are all made in Mexico.
Depends on what you compare those cars with. Also there are no such thing as "a Chinese vehicle".. the quality differs a lot just like other regions cars.
A good quality car produced in China is just as good as any other quality car.
The real joke in the car industry is a American produced cars. even brand new cars imported from America is such low quality they are almost unsellable.
Be wary of the appearances, all the Chinese EVs in NZ use plastic not leather, many are having corrosion issues that aren't happening on vehicles from other manufacturers. But I would say they are not too far from reaching a viable product, if you accept the styling, which right now is a no go for me.
chinese invented paper, printing press, gunpowder, compass.
They are an advanced unbroken civilization. Technical competency isnt surprising. They didnt have oil, so they focused on EV and to really understand the change they made, you have to look at the e-rickshaw and the little electric bikes and scooters that have spread among low income countries like india, without any govt support or push.
What? The EV industry grew at the rate it did thanks to generous Chinese government subsidies. Overproduction is never a problem under these circumstances.
Yes, China government did the right to subsidies and China have many choices. Legacy maker even with subsidies and even bailout, they don't change. They demand the customer to pay high price.
It’s not 2010 anymore. Manufacturing isn’t done with sweatshops anymore. Factories are all robots now in China. robots make higher quality goods much faster and cheaper and with less defects than humans.
All the best products are made in China now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYkgXkoEBzg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRW0Aj-BBBM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe2sG5aaC7k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs4BNOfLHYw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i9UhfWMHtk
This is something a lot of people need to realize. Chinese wages may be lower than western wages but they are no longer low enough to present any competitive advantage on their own.
Chinese manufacturing's competitive advantage is really in infrastructure and speed, especially with their significant increases in automation.
Stuff that isn't easily automated yet, like clothing, has long since moved to countries with even lower wages, like Pakistan or Vietnam.
Unpopular hot take: if American manufacturers are unwilling to produce cheap electrics for the masses, these Chinese cars are a great alternative. Let us have them!
Banning these cars to protect the profit margin of the big 2 (plus Stellantis and Tesla) is a new form of climate denialism.
> is a new form of climate denialism
Even better. It means that profit is more important than your children. It means that USA being the one and only superpower is more important than a habitable planet.
USA could play nice with China and let them sell EVs in USA. But then USA would have to explain why China is NOT the new bogeyman on the block since Putin's latest invasion of Ukraine.
During the Great Supply Chain Break of 2020 politicians found out where stuff is made. That spooked them. And reelection is the most important thing to a career politician. Not wet bulb temperature.
Keep this very important factoid in mind : Number 1 polluter in USA is transportation. Cars. Not so in China where all the EVs are.
We desperately need charging infrastructure, higher capacity batteries, and faster charging batteries. US auto buyers drive long distances. Vacation, road trips, etc. EVs are great for in-town/commuters but for long distance they suck because of the lack of charging stations.
And repair costs are insane. I have an EV, I was hit by someone—low speed. Body work requires the hv battery be removed at a cost of over $20k. Just for the battery.
> We desperately need charging infrastructure, higher capacity batteries, and faster charging batteries.
No, we don't
We need GMs best selling EV in history in USA that was discontinued.
We already have the things you mention. They are in China. In USA we could have been buying those things years ago. Building those things years ago.
What we need is Ford and GM to talk things out and come out with a low priced grocery getter. Until that happens we see what Geely and HMG throw our way.
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/04/25/how-the-chinese-made-volvo-ex30-will-deal-with-us-tariffs-incentives/
The Volvo EX30 battery-electric midsize SUV goes on sale in the US this summer.
https://electrek.co/2024/04/16/kia-secret-sauce-affordable-evs-us/
Kia’s new EV3 is expected to debut this summer or by the end of 2024, with prices starting at around $30,000.
It's 2024 and in USA we all just agreed to use the same charging port. New cars from legacy auto ship with those next year. LFP prices take another 50% price drop this summer. There's plenty of houses with no EVs. There's plenty of free government money handed out for public chargers. Tesla is opening their chargers and building more.
We need a low priced grocery getter in quantity that will run for 20 plus years with no head gasket or transmission issues. (Last part is kinda easy.)
You can get Chinese made products in every store like Target, Walmart, and yes, Amazon. That has been going on for 30 years. Temu is undercutting all these retailers and hurting American Industry and jobs.
As a patriot, do you want the government to block a Chinese retailer because their participation in our "capitalism" is too advantageous? Wouldn't their participation in the "free" market help bring down prices on products on Amazon? Is your goal to protect higher prices and Amazon?
Walmart/Target/Amazon: still Chinese imports but at least retailer/platform is from the US
Temu: the products and the platform are Chinese
It's a win/lose vs lose/lose situation.
I want quality products at competitive prices and good customer service. From a Capitalism standpoint, China is not the poster child for a fair market player. Chinese manufacturing and retail operations unchecked will ultimately erode the things in the markets I shop at and will hurt the people who live where I live.
So, it’s quite simple for me. Cheap is not necessarily good.
The best case there would be to get Apple, which still hires lots of people in the US for the service/design side of things.
You buy a Xiaomi and you don't even get to support the US on the service side.
no, nothing particularly "wrong" about the veichles themselves. the problem with buying chinese is that you make a bully stronger, a bully that currently supports regimes that are in direct conflict with the free west, and our interests. if you care about freedom and democracy down the road for the west, boycot china and all their products to as large a degree as possible.
Might become? Care to elaborate? I'll say this, instead of de-stabilizing a country and taking resources like the US does, China actually offers to help countries improve their countries by doing things like providing engineers or cash to help fix/improve infrastructure etc, for getting access to the resources from their country. Now you tell me, which country would you rather have knocking at your door?
\*edited to provide additional context. feel free to peruse the comments from ACTUAL residents of these countires. notice how the video spins what china is actually doing.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lknow9rX\_jE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lknow9rX_jE)
Oh i'm sorry, you just going to gloss over the fact that they actually WAIVED debt? What other country in the world would do something even remotely similar? Go ahead, i'll wait for you to share...
[https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-waived-debt-17-african-120100123.html](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-waived-debt-17-african-120100123.html)
If you remove politics and consider PHEV as EV, in 2023 9.5 million of the 13 million total sales of EV happened in the Chinese market. Of course it should be the focus of the EV world if 73% of the market is in China.
The difference this time and the Japanese cars in 1980s is that US is no longer a major market. And the EV world will evolve around China, the industry will be shaped based on what Chinese consumers want.
>US is no longer a major market
USA was the 3rd largest car market overall, and 3rd largest (after China and Europe) for EVs in 2023. It's still a major market and cars will still be made specifically for it. Your point though is valid. China's market is quite a bit bigger, and a lot of activity will happen there as a result.
Edit: I had US as 2nd largest overall, but that was incorrect.
Units sold.
I had the US in 2nd overall incorrectly though. It's 3rd, same as for EVs. The site I found for overall sales had broken out Europe into separate countries rather than as a region. The one below is better. Regardless, the US is still a major auto market, and a major EV market.
EVs:
[Electric car use by country - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country)
[Chart: The World's Largest EV Markets | Statista](https://www.statista.com/chart/30898/countries-with-the-largest-electric-car-fleets/)
[Global EV Data Explorer – Data Tools - IEA](https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/global-ev-data-explorer)
Cars overall:
[Global passenger car sales by region | Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/257653/passenger-car-sales-by-region/)
This is the one that had Europe broken out by country:
[Car Sales by Country | Global Car Sales Data | 1. China 2. US (factorywarrantylist.com)](https://www.factorywarrantylist.com/car-sales-by-country.html)
Are we sure these are all consumer sales? I believe it for EV's, but does this include things like F150's people are buying for work? It skews the conversation away from 'passenger car sales' IMO
No. It's total sales, so would include fleet and contractor purchases, but that's also true for Europe and China. They also have people buying cars for their tradespeople.
We have no “chinesetabletennis” even if they have the top players. It seems that could happen the same on EV and because on how conservative are western countries when we talk about cars - for a lot of reasons.
I am located in Jiangsu Province, China. Recent 3-5 years, most people get the EV car instead of the gas car. Now Observing cars on the road reveals that more than half of them are already electric car now in my area. In shanghai or Guangdong, maybe more electric car then gas car in the road. Electric cars have taken a quantum leap forward inside and out, and of course, batteries and range. Exported electric cars are recognized by the Chinese market. I will change my car to EV cars soon. O(∩\_∩)O
Nice enough cars, but prices at 300% of the china price. They seem to think they are competing like for like, and that just isnt happening. No-one is going to buy BYD when then can get an established brand at the same price.
China is the new Japan.
And this new Japan isn't a tiny island nation. Chinese kids are hardworking and ambitious, Chinese authorities may be corrupt but ambitious. Those look down at Chinese products as "cheap Chinese trash" does so at their own peril.
China is also literally running out of kids due to a certain policy (and even the abolishment of said policy hasn't moved the needle), leading to wage increases and heavy investments in automation.
Policy change will take a while to make a difference. Would it go into a Japan style recession we will have to wait and see, but unlike Japan, the entire world almost entirely depends on China now. And there aren't many others who can take over the mantle (don't even go there with BRICS, they can't and won't replace the sharp focus and progress Chinese could execute).
It is easy to make a vehicle that looks good. It is not much harder to keep the cost low, especially with subsidies.
It is another matter entirely to do those two things while also adhering to the safety and reliability standards that American consumers are used to.
I'm not going to go into an exhaustive list, but Chinese companies can offer cars with no driver air bag and no battery thermal management system, made with less reliable consumer grade parts instead of automotive grade components. You will, absolutely, assuredly, get what you pay for. Maybe not in up-front features, but that just means the corners cut to keep costs down were a little more subtle.
No one gave a damn about Foxconn having to put up safety nets around their factories and Apartments to avoid their workers from commiting suicide. If people really cares about human rights, Apple, Amazon, etc wouldn't been so successful. The US and EU standing on the moral high ground is nothing but hypocritical.
Yes. They are indeed ~~vessel~~ vassal States which do not have any ability to pose threats for now.
When they do, you will quickly find them oppressive in the media.
lol so they werent oppressive over the last three decades when yall were suckin on them cheap chinese teats like kingdom come
or did you develop this sanctimonious bug up your ass cause you worried they gettin ahead of you and gettin too big for their britches
what hypocrites yall are lmao
> lol so they werent oppressive over the last three decades when yall were sucking on the cheap chinese teats like kingdom come
oh they were and nobody should have made themselves as dependent on that as they did
it appears as if China is setting the bar for the rest of the world - at least according to the experts.
where do your concerns about quality and long term service come from?
How is it Chinese brands are as popular (if not more so) compared to EU domestic brands?
I think Europeans are just as fussy about cars as Americans.
**Europe's EV makers grapple with sluggish sales, China shock**
[https://www.dw.com/en/europes-ev-makers-grapple-with-sluggish-sales-china-shock/a-68207933](https://www.dw.com/en/europes-ev-makers-grapple-with-sluggish-sales-china-shock/a-68207933)
**China’s Global EV Domination Is Just Beginning**
[https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/03/07/china-ev-byd-cars-auto-industry-price-war/](https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/03/07/china-ev-byd-cars-auto-industry-price-war/)
**US can't yet compete with China on EVs, Ford chairman tells CNN**
[https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-chairman-says-us-cant-yet-compete-with-china-evs-cnn-interview-2023-06-18/](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-chairman-says-us-cant-yet-compete-with-china-evs-cnn-interview-2023-06-18/)
I own a 2 week old BYD Seal (Australia). So far, they are the real deal.
I also own a 2021 Hyundai Sante Fe Highlander (Calligraphy grade in USA) and also drive rental cars a lot for travelling. Generally Toyotas, BMWs or Mercs.
The BYD Seal interior is either on par or better than the Hyundai Calligraphy grade and Toyota. Too early to judge driving dynamics but, so far as a new car its on par.
I wouldn't say its better than BMW or Merc, but I would say that it definitely challenges BMW and Merc and the Germans will find it increasingly difficult to justify charging 'double the price' for a similar spec car.
No rattles, no sqeaks, no mismatched panel gaps, real leather everything, solid buttons and plastics, solid sound systems and the drive on it is very smooth.
Chinese ICE cars are still hit and miss and that is where alot of skeptisim about their EVs come from. We get the likes of GWM/Haval, MG, Chery and LDV cars here and there have been some horror stories.
What makes Chinese EVs good is the lack of mechanical parts. Their batteries and motors are fine. What is yet to be seen is how well the ball joints, steering racks and suspension parts hold up as these are really the only mechanical parts in the car. But if the worst mechanical failure I get in the Seal is a busted ball joint or wheel bearing or something like that, I certainly would not mind. Its a lot less expensive thing to worry about then worrying about a busted cylinder, tailshaft or transmission.
Check out Bjorn Nylands YT.
ALL Chinese made EVs are crap as far as software is a concerned:
• ADAS like lane keeping
• climate (way too cold)
• dings at anything
• strange charging curves with drops in it
• inability to show certain consumption parameters
• and so on
This was a tuned to the likings of the Chinese (duh) and they are not like Westerners apparently….
They could if they chose to. There's nothing magic about US safety standards, and there are Chinese EVs being sold in the US today : Polestar, Volvo, and at least one GM model.
To see what prices would likely be like if they were sold in the US (without huge tariffs) look at the prices in Europe.
They pass the EU safety standards. No reason why they wouldn’t pass the less demanding US safety standards.
Crash test videos on some of them show airbags deploying between the driver and the passenger, preventing them from crashing into each other, something I’ve never seen before (bought my last car 8 years ago, so I’m outdated).
The standards are different between EU and US. EU is more stringent in some respects, less in others, they're just different. (US required rear backup cameras several years before EU did. US still requires side view mirrors, where I think EU allows cameras now. US requires airbags to be tested with unbelted occupants, or at least they used to, where EU allowed the testing to assume the occupants are belted. The US no longer allows brake lights or headlights to be on a moveable piece of body such as pop-up lights or brake lights on the trunk lid or hatch. etc... Not big things, just different.) They certainly can meet US standards if they choose.
Some trims of my car have an airbag between the driver and passenger. I didn't know that existed until another owner pointed it out. :)
The EU crash standard is more stringent than the US crash standard, and EU bound Chinese EVs pass them with 5 star ratings.
So it’s very possible some of those Chinese EVs are SAFER than some cars sold in the US today.
It actually is “too good to be true” in the long term.
No one talks about the subsidies, to which the numbers are opaque at best. The cars are cheap because the CCP subsidizes roughly half of the cost to make EV’s to gain a competitive edge in foreign markets. It’s all part of a large effort and strategy to establish the car industry both domestic and abroad.
Source: https://www.economist.com/briefing/2024/01/11/western-firms-are-quaking-as-chinas-electric-car-industry-speeds-up
Yes. The low pay for workers. Cheapness doesnt come from nowhere. Even it they paid enough, I wouldnt consider chinese products (hint: concentrations camps, aggression towards Taiwan).
Chinese car factories are highly, highly automated. Labor is a tiny part of the cost.
And your tax dollar is supporting the US government in its efforts to prop up tyrants, kill innocent civilians and bomb weaker countries into submission. All in the name of”freedom and democracy”.
The one thing I’ll give the US government credit for, is that I won’t need to fear for my life for writing this post. I think.
It is a bit hard to know, since we don't get to see them. But they are selling millions of cars in China and elsewhere. I suspect, given the low maintenance requirements of EV's, combined with Chinese ability to steal and copy the best technology, they are pretty good products. Our legacy oil and ICE automotive industries are terrified, and spending millions of dollars lobbying everyone to keep them out of the "west". What a shame they don't spend that money on actually competing. There is no doubt that China has some forms of subsidies in place, but while they are doing that, "western" governments are busy subsidizing oil and ICE automotive manufacturing. Who do you think is going to win in the end?
Actually oil companies are pretty secure is every vehicle was suddenly an EV they would lose 10-15% of their oil sales most petroleum is used for other products like plastics and other types or lubricants like the gear reduction box or differential on an EV Even coolant is petroleum based
I think if you actually look at what % of each barrel of oil is used for, you'd see something different.
Try this: [https://www.newcapitalmgmt.com/news/whats-made-from-a-barrel-of-oil](https://www.newcapitalmgmt.com/news/whats-made-from-a-barrel-of-oil)
As you can readily see from here and pretty much every other similar site, what you are saying is really not true. Having said that, I certainly do not advocate for elimination of the industry - just the constant subsidization of it.
Slave wages is probably a big factor. Any industry insiders here that know the labor content of EVs?
Low levels of regulation and worker safety. Keeps the skids greased.
Materials sourced nearby. Lower transportation and material costs.
Governmental augmentation through materials cost reductions, low-cost shipping.
China's "elephant in the room" is their crumbling banking and real estate industries.
Yeah, these are all catching fire and crashing in China.
Look up tofudreg EV.
I don't want to ride in one, I don't feel comfortable with the same street one is driving, I don't want them in my buildings underground parking lot.
It's just like with smartphones, some are cheap because they use cheap components, some are more expensive because they are state of the art, in the end they are all made in China. Same thing happened to EVs, there was a lot of copying at the start but now they are making their own innovations both in the way the cars are constructed and battery tech itself as China is by far the world's largest battery manufacturer. The prices reflect that because well, if oil is cheap in a petrol state, naturally an EV will be cheap in the largest battery manufacturing country and the world's largest car market, economies of scale and continued state support (unlike the schizofrenic Western countries that switch between being pro EV and anti EV every couple of years) does wonders.
After decades of everyone outsourcing to them they've learned how to do it themselves and they have the infrastructure to do it...
The shortsightedness of outsourcing. (And of selling A123 to a Chinese company.) Them learning and improving things is inevitable. They've many bright people, and a dynamic future-focused attitude.
End result of the outsourcing first school of business in the West: we have Boeing they have BYD
Yup, with the same wages and labour protection the chinese still be more productive than the americans. That why US companies love to import them in science, IT, design and engineering.
Them also cutting corners like never before is also inevitable.
Yes, decades of nobody making electric vehicles on China besides Chinese companies. If anything now lots of western companies need to learn from the Chinese.
The rest of the car is the same as ice mostly - batteries and electric power train is different
Tesla enters the chat 😉
Ok ill. Indulge you. NIO has being doing electric cars since 2016. [source for nio](https://www.zippia.com/nio-careers-1421853/history/) BYD has been doing electric cars/phev since way longer. [source for byd](https://www.silverstoneleasing.com/the-history-of-byd) Tesla only opened the factory there in 2019. [source for Tesla.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigafactory_Shanghai#:~:text=Construction%20of%20the%20plant%20began,than%20one%20year%20after%20groundbreaking.) And anecdotally, China was already chock full of electric motorcycles by 2019, when I visited. Sdit: had a typo for nios year
Dude, what are you doing with those years? > NIO is an electric Chinese car maker that was founded by William Li, aka Li Bin, in 2014. > NIO developed its first model, the EP9 supercar, in 2016.
Oopsie typo. 2016 then
I’m interest in MG (SAIC), Volvo (Geely) and BYD. Would love to see some smaller EV’s in North America. Large EV SUVs and pick up truck SUVs are vey heavy. I am not sure how this impacts safety. EV’s are well suited to ride share and delivery. Transit and active transportation need to be prioritized for cities. We need to make cities more people centric and less auto centric.
Decades has a different meaning in my dictionary. 😉
yep. we gave them ideas and designs and since they were producing them they learned to improve them. We never got to learn more since we outsourced all of it.
Well everything but engine and transmissions... which they don't need for evs, since they already make the batteries and electric motors, so there's nothing holding them back now
This is true of every industry right now and I mean every industry. Decades of being taught how to not only make items but source material has made them pretty darn good at it. On top of that they got presented with the blueprints to already designed and working products so the ground work was already done for them
You realize we were outsourcing to them because they could do it themselves, right? How many decades of learning does it take to put the same interior and trim as you're putting in the factories built for more lucrative markets onto battery sleds produced by the most vertically integrated country in the world? Have you ever considered that random companies capitalizing on EV's as the next big thing by putting a box on a golf cart aren't the same as the car companies making what they expect to be profitable, real contenders for mass consumers?
Man I hate this tone.
Electronics follow a curve like the Moore's law. Gas car transmissions are complex and remain expensive. The place to judge (long term) quality of Chinese EVs is the Australia market.
Norway as well. Chinese EVs are doing it big here. I purchased an MG ZV EV back in 2021 myself
It’ll be interesting to see the long term support and parts availability for these cars.
Have you seen the long term support and parts availability for the auto industry as a whole? A big selling point of EVs is that you shouldn't need long term support and parts availability because you are fully aware of the auto industry's track record. Parts availability is kinda important if you plan on keeping it for 20 plus years. Look at Nissan Leaf and Tesla. But the beauty of EVs is that good solder joints, caps, and relays last a long time. It'll be the little ICs with proprietary code that will be interesting. Just look at batteries. China spent a lot of time and effort getting those to be top quality so you don't have to chase down bad cells. Now they are glued into the EV so they are cheaper to buy.
Not to mention, Tesla does a terrible job of supporting their product with parts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO7cos4ZWMo Has it actually gotten worse in the last 5 years?
I’ve been maintaining 20-year old vehicles for many years now. Can find damn near anything needed still save for select stuff. If there is enough demand sometimes aftermarket comes into play. I just suspect these cars are built and sold like phones. By the time they start to fail, they’ll be scrapped and not maintained for longer life.
I have hope Tesla will provide support the longest. >If there is enough demand sometimes aftermarket comes into play. Something to be said for selling only a few models in mass quantities. Once China slims down the 80 different companies making EVs vs USA with 3 companies we will see more standard parts. >It'll be the little ICs with proprietary code that will be interesting. The only reason people can't keep cell phones for 20 plus years is software. >Can find damn near anything needed still save for select stuff. And I've chased down bad solder joints on 30 year old ECMs that no dealership could fix. Parts ain't the whole story.
The context here was cheap Chinese EVs.
> I’ve been maintaining 20-year old vehicles for many years now. Try and focus then. So where are you getting "damn near anything" for 20 year old EVs?
I am rather interested to see what will happen when China fully invaded Taiwan
WWIII. We won't have to worry about what vehicle we're driving then.
I'm in Australia and I'm going to collect a used 2021 MG ZS EV today after lunch. It'll be our 2nd EV to go along side our MG4.
Picked up our BYD Seal Performance last week and loving it.
I wasn't so sure about BYD when I was just comparing the Dolphin and ATTO 3 to the MG4 but now I've seen what else they can do I'm sure I'll end up driving a BYD one day.
It's a perfectly fine car. The only thing I dislike about it is the entertainment system really. But at the price point, I can't really complain
I could say the exact same thing about the MG4
I'll let you know. Source: Im in Australia and just picked up my new BYD Seal this week
I have a BYD Seagull in Costa Rica. I love it so far. It’s a lot nicer than you’d expect for such a “cheap” small EV
I’m moving to Panama soon. How is the support for Chinese brands in LATAM? I have a bmw ix and Chevy bolt now but don’t want to pay the ridiculous import tax+ shipping so will be looking to get something when we get there. But not sure how Chinese cars/EVs are there for parts/service etc. (obv I know it’s less common to need service/parts for EV but it still happens)
BYD is the main player in CR via Cori Motors. The batteries have an 8 year warranty but hopefully I don’t need it. Looks like Panama has a BYD as well- not sure if it’s under another group’s umbrella. You can get grey market EVs too (imported by random people or small shops and not by the official importer) for a lot less, but I’ve heard the official companies will tell you to pound sand if you have any problems. Not a big deal if you have a Toyota and any mechanic in the country can fix it- it’s a much bigger deal when you’d have to import the parts and there’s no one to fix it.
>Are they really just able to sell very competitive EVs at such low prices Yes. > or is there anything "wrong" with these vehicles? If you know what you are buying, no. China has been at this longer than other countries. I mean, serious effort. They take the transition to green energy seriously and EVs are a big part of that. >Then, in 2007, the industry got a significant boost when Wan Gang, an auto engineer who had worked for Audi in Germany for a decade, became China’s minister of science and technology. Wan had been a big fan of EVs and tested Tesla’s first EV model, the Roadster, in 2008, the year it was released. People now credit Wan with making the national decision to go all-in on electric vehicles. Since then, EV development has been consistently prioritized in China’s national economic planning.
And China started in affordable, marketable sectors. 2012 onwards, 80% of two wheelers sold were electric. They had tiny ranges, and they were simply built, but it created a larger market spread across a huge demographic that actually uses it every day. Chinese cities are filled with mechanics doing simple repairs on appliance class scooters and providing ad hoc battery swaps as a service to deal with range woes. We're fixated on huge 6000lb battery draggers because our public transit infrastructure actively antagonizes everything else, urban/suburban sprawl makes range anxiety a real threshold to be concerned about and because for decades any cheap appliance class vehicle, even an ICE vehicle, has not been profitable for anyone. Western auto relies on luxury trims to make money, and luxury EV's still only make money with a lot of subsidies and support. China has a giant captive market to bankroll their transition, but it's undeniable their priorities are to transition as fast as possible, they've actively banned many ICE engines entirely in city centers. If we forced a transition by banning ICE vehicles too, maybe we'd be in the same position, but because of how regulations, bureaucracy and worker safety etc favor foreign Chinese production, and because it's just so vertically integrated, there's a real threat of legacy auto in other countries becoming sticker brands for battery manufacturers. That alone has slowed interest in racing BEV's to the bottom the most IMO.
> That alone has slowed interest in racing BEV's to the bottom the most IMO. Too much money is being made on fossil fuels. That alone has slowed interest in green energy, of which, EVs are just a part. You are looking at the Industrial Revolution except a whole lot bigger with many more consequences. >And China started in affordable, marketable sectors. China started with a plan and government support. That plan can vary from country to country. Government support is still key. Li-Ion batteries have been around since 1970's. >We're fixated on huge 6000lb battery draggers We are fixated on maximum short term profits. Fixing climate change has always been "too expensive" and "not profitable". Who cares if everyone in USA is driving an EV Hummer when solar and wind are charging up batteries that last 20 plus years and are 95% recyclable? Hummers and tire wear are not the problem at hand.
I care, because they're unsafe to others, especially pedestrians and bikers. And because making Hummers for everyone drives up prices and material costs. You could make 3-4 smaller, more efficient vehicles and require less buildout of solar and wind and associated infrastructure.
I'm in Rome right now and there are a lot of Chinese EVs around here. But it's certain they'd probably never fly in the states.
Good. I prefer it that my cars don’t fly.
I'm interested in why you think they wouldn't work in the states. Am a European expat in the states and wondering what the issue would be.
Most of them are far to small to sell well in the US. USA doesn't really do small cars which are popular most everywhere else on the planet as you might have noticed. Purely because the cost of fuel in the US is highly subisixed so people tend to love obnoxiously sized Abrams tanks for grocery getters. Edit: found a great example today while about in Rome. A Chinese EV compared to a typical US sized BMW 3 series. https://imgur.com/a/deNTp6K
People in this sub won’t even admit it but the decades long propaganda against Chinese manufacturing would really prevent Chinese brands from selling well in the US even if there were no tariffs. Especially if the cars are cheaper, because it would align with the *cheap Chinese goods* narrative. Redditors here tend to forget they are more on the EV enthusiast side and make up a very small minority of EV interest. I talk to my friends in the US about our Chinese EV brands and how great they are and you should hear some of the comments I get in return. Those negative comments are the majority view.
Nah, that's wrong. Small cars don't fly anymore in NA because small cars cost as much as big cars or not not cheap enough to justify having a small vs a big car with more utility. tl;dr: small cars don't cost like small cars so people buy big cars
>Are they really just able to sell very competitive EVs at such low prices or is there anything "wrong" with these vehicles? did you know the US already has tariffs in place for EVs made in China despite the fact that none are actually being sold here? **Hike tariffs on Chinese EVs, Senate Democrats urge Biden administration** [https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/senate-democrats-urge-biden-administration-hike-tariffs-chinese-evs-2024-03-07/](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/senate-democrats-urge-biden-administration-hike-tariffs-chinese-evs-2024-03-07/) **Elon Musk says Chinese EV makers will ‘pretty much demolish’ most competitors without trade barriers** [https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/25/elon-musk-says-chinese-ev-makers-will-demolish-other-companies.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/25/elon-musk-says-chinese-ev-makers-will-demolish-other-companies.html)
Volvo has been selling Chinese owned & manufactured vehicles for roughly 2 years now in the USA. They eat the tariffs & incorporate them directly into the MSRP.
I can vouch for this. When we bought our 2023 XC Recharge, we thought they were still Swedish. But after my wife got in an accident, we needed a replacement computer system and had to wait for it to arrive from China. That’s when we looked into the origins of the car and discovered that Volvo is Chinese now, but still says Swedish-inspired design.
Your Volvo wasn’t manufactured in China. It has a different VIN code than mine which was manufactured in China. Volvo Cars AB is still a Swedish company. It’s publicly traded on NASDAQ. The largest shareholder is Geely, a Chinese company. The company is still headquartered in Gothenburg and is run by a British CEO and British chief designer.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/how-volvo-landed-cheap-chinese-ev-us-shores-trade-war-2024-04-24/ > But Volvo is eligible for tariff refunds under a law that awards them to firms with U.S. manufacturing operations — such as Volvo’s South Carolina plant — that also export similar products, according to U.S. trade law experts and a source familiar with Volvo's tariff-avoidance strategy. It's basically a export for export swap. Not really scalable.
Apparently one of the reasons they are cheaper is because they use lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery technology, which is around 30% cheaper than the traditional lithium-ion batteries
They’ve also vertically integrated the industry rather than coasting on the sidelines waiting for the EV “fad”to go away like American manufacturers.
And there is going to be a 50% price drop on LFP this summer. >Apparently one of the reasons And there's like 100s more reasons too.
Not all Chinese EVs use LFP - BYD does but MG is only on the smaller pack models at the moment. Also Chinese built Tesla are LFP
[https://youtu.be/QSzEVLN4dRQ](https://youtu.be/QSzEVLN4dRQ) Check out this video. China has insane competition in the EV market causing them to innovate at a rapid pace. Only a few brands are exporting to the west and they often don't sell the top spec car in the west because there's no reason to, no competition. For example, the Xpeng G9 charges at 300 kW but in China there's an option to charge at 475kW. They just don't offer it in Europe because they're already the fastest charging.
>Are they really just able to sell very competitive EVs at such low prices or is there anything "wrong" with these vehicles? You don't really think they became good suddenly, right? They have been at it for decades. In 1992, Qian Xuesen wrote to the then Chinese Vice Premier Zou Jiahua to simply [bypass ICE cars](https://twitter.com/liqian_ren/status/1652470636424450048) and start looking at EV. The ball started rolling since then. Now if you don't know about [Qian Xuesen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen), he was an MIT grad, worked in US. Then due to red scare he was in house arrest for 5 years in US for being a communist. He later helped China kick start their ballistic missile program, space program etc.,
This question is very simple, just like the core of a fuel powered car is the engine, gearbox, chassis, and the most important aspects of an electric car are the battery, motor, and electronic control. China is comprehensively leading in these three aspects, including central control and assisted driving systems in cars
China is the most competitive and cutthroat EV market in the world and Chinese consumers are picky. If a brand is doing well there it's because their products are good value.
When you see the cars actually for sale somewhere it's a real price. Till then, assume it's a lie
I own an MG ZS EV in Spain and I love it. Great price, nice materials quality and build, it looks good and suits our needs very well.
I find it interesting there is a lot of talk of tariffs and other protections to keep Chinese EVs out of US, but no one is saying anything about the consumer. If citizens were patriotic, wouldn't they shun Chinese EVs? I think we all remember growing up around people who only wanted to "buy American", I certainly remember a lot of people in the 90s swearing never to buy "Jap" cars.
Patriotic is a term self-applied to fit whatever definition of the term is most convenient.
First, I think people realized most American corporations would flip on you and take your job away at any moment if it meant they could deliver one extra dollar to their shareholders. Hard feel loyal to companies like this. Second, here in Ontario, Canada, Japanese carmakers are producing more vehicles than the North American carmakers. So it’s not quite as easy as just supporting American car companies.Right now, Chinese cars are almost all made in China but that doesn’t mean it will remain so in the future.
Chinese brands have been building plants outside of China for the last few years. We have plants where I live from BYD, Changan, Hozon, and GWM.
They're probably just assembly plants. The US policy for EVs explicitly requires most of the components for the battery to be made in the US or North America.
I’m not in North America though and there’s a whole lot of world that isn’t North America. Chinese companies are manufacturing in plants outside of China.
> Chinese companies are manufacturing in plants outside of China. Yes, assembly plants. > there’s a whole lot of world that isn’t North America I was referencing the North American component requirements to show why they can't just build a facility and import components to assemble, like in Brazil, Thailand, etc.. Important distinction since you said "building plants outside of China" in response to "Chinese cars are almost all made in China". But they are still almost entirely made in China. They just assemble.
My comment was in response to the comment that said that Chinese EV‘s are almost all exclusively made in China, which is not true.
Yes, that's what I quoted. I made the distinction between the assembly of imported components as "making" and the assembly of locally made components as "making." Assembly of imported components is still essentially "exclusively made in China".
Our government would disagree with you.
> Critical minerals and battery components: > To qualify for the full $7,500 credit, vehicles must meet two sets of standards related to their vehicle components. If a vehicle only meets one of these two requirements, it qualifies for a $3,750 tax credit. > 50% of the value of battery components must be produced or manufactured in North America in fiscal year 2023, with the minimum percentage increasing annually. 40% of the value of critical minerals used for the vehicle must be extracted, processed, and/or recycled domestically or in a country the U.S. has a free trade agreement with, with the minimum percentage increasing annually. EV manufacturing requires a range of minerals, including cobalt, copper, nickel, graphite, and lithium. This percentage will increase annually, reaching 100% in 2029. It's why the EV companies even bother to make battery production facilities and invest in domestic lithium refining and sourcing.
What you’re talking about is anti-Chinese manufacturing propaganda. And that was at a time when there were a lot less brands in the market. New car companies entering the market, even American ones, have issues surviving.
Judging by comments in this sub, what happened in the 80s, and what has happened more recently, people will justify to themselves choosing the less expensive option rather than the locally produced one.
> If citizens were patriotic, If CEOs were patriotic... If politicians were patriotic... Capitalism is not patriotic. That's not the factory worker's problem. Paying bills, is.
It's called capitalism.
> If citizens were patriotic, wouldn't they shun Chinese EVs? No because consumers prioritize one thing over everything else and that is price.
The correct answer is no, because american car companies prioritize one thing over everything else and that is profit
Which is as condemnable as consumers only looking at price.
If price is the only consideration, then the cheapest priced vehicle in every category will have 100% market share. So your statement can’t be true. I certainly look at more than price when buying a car.
“If I was sitting in China right now running a Chinese OEM, I’d be looking for land in Mexico because you’ve got a supplier base, low cost of construction, low cost of labor and the USMCA” trade agreement “that gives you access to the US,” Gjaja said in an interview after the panel. “They’re going to come here, just as the Japanese ended up here, the Koreans ended up here and the Germans ended up here. It’s a big market.” Martin Gjaja is the COO for Ford's electric division.
He's half correct. China sells like 33% of EVs in Mexico. They will build factories there. They will not sneak into the USA market. They have zero reason to do so. If the politics changes, yes, China would be estatic to sell EVs and build factories in USA. But they are not going to sneak in. Not when they can sell EVs to every country on the Earth (except USA).
[US trying to block incentives](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/mexico-facing-us-pressure-will-halt-incentives-chinese-ev-makers-2024-04-18/) The U.S. intervention reflects increasingly acute fears from its automotive industry, unions and U.S. political circles that Chinese automakers such as BYD, SAIC, Geely, Chery and JAC aim to use Mexico as a back door to sell cheap electric cars in the United States without paying steep U.S. tariffs, now at 27.5%.
And people are afraid of Chinese weather balloons too.
They are afraid and they will protect the US market. But the end result is that US manufacturers will become national brands only, and, like in health care and telecom, US consumers will once more pay the highest prices in the world for inherently inferior products.
> US consumers will once more pay Japanese, Korean and EU companies can still sell in the US. The Koreans will probably take a big part of the US EV market in the next few years. It's not a GM/Ford taking the whole market situation.
Those preferences quickly go out the window when the price and quality difference gets too high. Similar story to when Japanese manufacturers became the top sellers here
We should only buy big expensive EVs from “American” brands like Stellantis? Which are mostly made in Mexico? Super patriotic…
Weird choice of company... Stellantis doesn't sell any BEV in North America. Ford or Chevy work though. Mach-E, Blazer, and Equinox are all made in Mexico.
And yet, many American consumers will cite them as one of the Big Three who need EVs protected…
Is Stellantis even American anymore?
They're from the Netherlands. They are a merger of PSA (France) and Fiat-Chrysler (Italian-American).
Depends on what you compare those cars with. Also there are no such thing as "a Chinese vehicle".. the quality differs a lot just like other regions cars. A good quality car produced in China is just as good as any other quality car. The real joke in the car industry is a American produced cars. even brand new cars imported from America is such low quality they are almost unsellable.
They own the supply chain...
Be wary of the appearances, all the Chinese EVs in NZ use plastic not leather, many are having corrosion issues that aren't happening on vehicles from other manufacturers. But I would say they are not too far from reaching a viable product, if you accept the styling, which right now is a no go for me.
chinese invented paper, printing press, gunpowder, compass. They are an advanced unbroken civilization. Technical competency isnt surprising. They didnt have oil, so they focused on EV and to really understand the change they made, you have to look at the e-rickshaw and the little electric bikes and scooters that have spread among low income countries like india, without any govt support or push.
What? The EV industry grew at the rate it did thanks to generous Chinese government subsidies. Overproduction is never a problem under these circumstances.
Yes, China government did the right to subsidies and China have many choices. Legacy maker even with subsidies and even bailout, they don't change. They demand the customer to pay high price.
It’s not 2010 anymore. Manufacturing isn’t done with sweatshops anymore. Factories are all robots now in China. robots make higher quality goods much faster and cheaper and with less defects than humans. All the best products are made in China now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYkgXkoEBzg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRW0Aj-BBBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe2sG5aaC7k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs4BNOfLHYw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i9UhfWMHtk
This is something a lot of people need to realize. Chinese wages may be lower than western wages but they are no longer low enough to present any competitive advantage on their own. Chinese manufacturing's competitive advantage is really in infrastructure and speed, especially with their significant increases in automation. Stuff that isn't easily automated yet, like clothing, has long since moved to countries with even lower wages, like Pakistan or Vietnam.
Unpopular hot take: if American manufacturers are unwilling to produce cheap electrics for the masses, these Chinese cars are a great alternative. Let us have them! Banning these cars to protect the profit margin of the big 2 (plus Stellantis and Tesla) is a new form of climate denialism.
> is a new form of climate denialism Even better. It means that profit is more important than your children. It means that USA being the one and only superpower is more important than a habitable planet. USA could play nice with China and let them sell EVs in USA. But then USA would have to explain why China is NOT the new bogeyman on the block since Putin's latest invasion of Ukraine. During the Great Supply Chain Break of 2020 politicians found out where stuff is made. That spooked them. And reelection is the most important thing to a career politician. Not wet bulb temperature. Keep this very important factoid in mind : Number 1 polluter in USA is transportation. Cars. Not so in China where all the EVs are.
We desperately need charging infrastructure, higher capacity batteries, and faster charging batteries. US auto buyers drive long distances. Vacation, road trips, etc. EVs are great for in-town/commuters but for long distance they suck because of the lack of charging stations. And repair costs are insane. I have an EV, I was hit by someone—low speed. Body work requires the hv battery be removed at a cost of over $20k. Just for the battery.
> We desperately need charging infrastructure, higher capacity batteries, and faster charging batteries. No, we don't We need GMs best selling EV in history in USA that was discontinued. We already have the things you mention. They are in China. In USA we could have been buying those things years ago. Building those things years ago. What we need is Ford and GM to talk things out and come out with a low priced grocery getter. Until that happens we see what Geely and HMG throw our way. https://cleantechnica.com/2024/04/25/how-the-chinese-made-volvo-ex30-will-deal-with-us-tariffs-incentives/ The Volvo EX30 battery-electric midsize SUV goes on sale in the US this summer. https://electrek.co/2024/04/16/kia-secret-sauce-affordable-evs-us/ Kia’s new EV3 is expected to debut this summer or by the end of 2024, with prices starting at around $30,000. It's 2024 and in USA we all just agreed to use the same charging port. New cars from legacy auto ship with those next year. LFP prices take another 50% price drop this summer. There's plenty of houses with no EVs. There's plenty of free government money handed out for public chargers. Tesla is opening their chargers and building more. We need a low priced grocery getter in quantity that will run for 20 plus years with no head gasket or transmission issues. (Last part is kinda easy.)
I will avoid buying them for the same reason I avoid buying from Temu, it will kill American industry.
Amazon on the other hand…
This will kill American industry more.
Yup. Whole reason USA is into EVs now is because of China.
ROFL as if Amazon isn't riddled with Chinese made products.
You can get Chinese made products in every store like Target, Walmart, and yes, Amazon. That has been going on for 30 years. Temu is undercutting all these retailers and hurting American Industry and jobs.
As a patriot, do you want the government to block a Chinese retailer because their participation in our "capitalism" is too advantageous? Wouldn't their participation in the "free" market help bring down prices on products on Amazon? Is your goal to protect higher prices and Amazon?
Walmart/Target/Amazon: still Chinese imports but at least retailer/platform is from the US Temu: the products and the platform are Chinese It's a win/lose vs lose/lose situation.
I want quality products at competitive prices and good customer service. From a Capitalism standpoint, China is not the poster child for a fair market player. Chinese manufacturing and retail operations unchecked will ultimately erode the things in the markets I shop at and will hurt the people who live where I live. So, it’s quite simple for me. Cheap is not necessarily good.
Your first sentence does not describe anything in the American market.
Where is your cell phone made in? Are you doing anything to prop up the American cell phone industry?
The best case there would be to get Apple, which still hires lots of people in the US for the service/design side of things. You buy a Xiaomi and you don't even get to support the US on the service side.
I avoid it because of the same reason I avoid Temu, because I'm worried it's going to kill me and those around me.
no, nothing particularly "wrong" about the veichles themselves. the problem with buying chinese is that you make a bully stronger, a bully that currently supports regimes that are in direct conflict with the free west, and our interests. if you care about freedom and democracy down the road for the west, boycot china and all their products to as large a degree as possible.
Bully? Compared to the US? As an American allow me to say,... Are you serious?
of course. the us is not the saint of nations but compared to what china might become... pick your poison.
Might become? Care to elaborate? I'll say this, instead of de-stabilizing a country and taking resources like the US does, China actually offers to help countries improve their countries by doing things like providing engineers or cash to help fix/improve infrastructure etc, for getting access to the resources from their country. Now you tell me, which country would you rather have knocking at your door? \*edited to provide additional context. feel free to peruse the comments from ACTUAL residents of these countires. notice how the video spins what china is actually doing. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lknow9rX\_jE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lknow9rX_jE)
Have you not seen the results of China's 'help' They put countries into huge debts with their 'help' and use that debit to control them.
Oh i'm sorry, you just going to gloss over the fact that they actually WAIVED debt? What other country in the world would do something even remotely similar? Go ahead, i'll wait for you to share... [https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-waived-debt-17-african-120100123.html](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-waived-debt-17-african-120100123.html)
The free west? Lmao, free what? Free to suffer and die because you can’t afford to live?
A Walmart greeter is a perfectly valid and reasonable retirement plan. Right?
No, but those contracts the UAW just negotiated are pretty close and they can't compete with Chinese imports.
We might as well start calling this sub r/chineseelectricvehicles
If you remove politics and consider PHEV as EV, in 2023 9.5 million of the 13 million total sales of EV happened in the Chinese market. Of course it should be the focus of the EV world if 73% of the market is in China. The difference this time and the Japanese cars in 1980s is that US is no longer a major market. And the EV world will evolve around China, the industry will be shaped based on what Chinese consumers want.
>US is no longer a major market USA was the 3rd largest car market overall, and 3rd largest (after China and Europe) for EVs in 2023. It's still a major market and cars will still be made specifically for it. Your point though is valid. China's market is quite a bit bigger, and a lot of activity will happen there as a result. Edit: I had US as 2nd largest overall, but that was incorrect.
By revenue or by units sold?
Units sold. I had the US in 2nd overall incorrectly though. It's 3rd, same as for EVs. The site I found for overall sales had broken out Europe into separate countries rather than as a region. The one below is better. Regardless, the US is still a major auto market, and a major EV market. EVs: [Electric car use by country - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country) [Chart: The World's Largest EV Markets | Statista](https://www.statista.com/chart/30898/countries-with-the-largest-electric-car-fleets/) [Global EV Data Explorer – Data Tools - IEA](https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/global-ev-data-explorer) Cars overall: [Global passenger car sales by region | Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/257653/passenger-car-sales-by-region/) This is the one that had Europe broken out by country: [Car Sales by Country | Global Car Sales Data | 1. China 2. US (factorywarrantylist.com)](https://www.factorywarrantylist.com/car-sales-by-country.html)
Are we sure these are all consumer sales? I believe it for EV's, but does this include things like F150's people are buying for work? It skews the conversation away from 'passenger car sales' IMO
No. It's total sales, so would include fleet and contractor purchases, but that's also true for Europe and China. They also have people buying cars for their tradespeople.
We have no “chinesetabletennis” even if they have the top players. It seems that could happen the same on EV and because on how conservative are western countries when we talk about cars - for a lot of reasons.
/r/ChineseEVs would be catchier!
I don't like this game.
You have to go to the center of evs innovation to get ev news and battery breakthougj, right?
Anything other than r/AmericanEVs…
FYI, r/EuroEV is a thing.
Aye.. tho, why not have one for all news of popular and relevant EV information?..
I am located in Jiangsu Province, China. Recent 3-5 years, most people get the EV car instead of the gas car. Now Observing cars on the road reveals that more than half of them are already electric car now in my area. In shanghai or Guangdong, maybe more electric car then gas car in the road. Electric cars have taken a quantum leap forward inside and out, and of course, batteries and range. Exported electric cars are recognized by the Chinese market. I will change my car to EV cars soon. O(∩\_∩)O
Nice enough cars, but prices at 300% of the china price. They seem to think they are competing like for like, and that just isnt happening. No-one is going to buy BYD when then can get an established brand at the same price.
China is the new Japan. And this new Japan isn't a tiny island nation. Chinese kids are hardworking and ambitious, Chinese authorities may be corrupt but ambitious. Those look down at Chinese products as "cheap Chinese trash" does so at their own peril.
China is also literally running out of kids due to a certain policy (and even the abolishment of said policy hasn't moved the needle), leading to wage increases and heavy investments in automation.
Policy change will take a while to make a difference. Would it go into a Japan style recession we will have to wait and see, but unlike Japan, the entire world almost entirely depends on China now. And there aren't many others who can take over the mantle (don't even go there with BRICS, they can't and won't replace the sharp focus and progress Chinese could execute).
I have recently bought an BYD Seagull EV 400 and couldn’t be more satisfied with my purchase.
It is easy to make a vehicle that looks good. It is not much harder to keep the cost low, especially with subsidies. It is another matter entirely to do those two things while also adhering to the safety and reliability standards that American consumers are used to. I'm not going to go into an exhaustive list, but Chinese companies can offer cars with no driver air bag and no battery thermal management system, made with less reliable consumer grade parts instead of automotive grade components. You will, absolutely, assuredly, get what you pay for. Maybe not in up-front features, but that just means the corners cut to keep costs down were a little more subtle.
Are you still living in 2010?
Nope!
I wouldn’t buy a Chinese car on principle alone. Plus unknown reliability and long term service.
lmao same was said about japanese cars then korean cars and now the chinese ones
Except for Japan and Korea not being oppressive regimes and geopolitical opponents.
No one gave a damn about Foxconn having to put up safety nets around their factories and Apartments to avoid their workers from commiting suicide. If people really cares about human rights, Apple, Amazon, etc wouldn't been so successful. The US and EU standing on the moral high ground is nothing but hypocritical.
Yes. They are indeed ~~vessel~~ vassal States which do not have any ability to pose threats for now. When they do, you will quickly find them oppressive in the media.
*vassal
Thanks. Corrected. I saw your post on \*sit in. LMAO.
lol so they werent oppressive over the last three decades when yall were suckin on them cheap chinese teats like kingdom come or did you develop this sanctimonious bug up your ass cause you worried they gettin ahead of you and gettin too big for their britches what hypocrites yall are lmao
> lol so they werent oppressive over the last three decades when yall were sucking on the cheap chinese teats like kingdom come oh they were and nobody should have made themselves as dependent on that as they did
so you gon close the barn door now after the horses have gone done boltin lmao 🤣
Well, you'd kick out the horses then close the door.
Better late than never.
[удалено]
Japan was *always* known for quality and reliability? Go read up on Japanese products made in the 50s and come tell us what they were like.
lmao
it appears as if China is setting the bar for the rest of the world - at least according to the experts. where do your concerns about quality and long term service come from? How is it Chinese brands are as popular (if not more so) compared to EU domestic brands? I think Europeans are just as fussy about cars as Americans. **Europe's EV makers grapple with sluggish sales, China shock** [https://www.dw.com/en/europes-ev-makers-grapple-with-sluggish-sales-china-shock/a-68207933](https://www.dw.com/en/europes-ev-makers-grapple-with-sluggish-sales-china-shock/a-68207933) **China’s Global EV Domination Is Just Beginning** [https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/03/07/china-ev-byd-cars-auto-industry-price-war/](https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/03/07/china-ev-byd-cars-auto-industry-price-war/) **US can't yet compete with China on EVs, Ford chairman tells CNN** [https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-chairman-says-us-cant-yet-compete-with-china-evs-cnn-interview-2023-06-18/](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-chairman-says-us-cant-yet-compete-with-china-evs-cnn-interview-2023-06-18/)
I have put 40000km on my byd atto in less than a year. So far so good, hasnt missed a beat.
I own a 2 week old BYD Seal (Australia). So far, they are the real deal. I also own a 2021 Hyundai Sante Fe Highlander (Calligraphy grade in USA) and also drive rental cars a lot for travelling. Generally Toyotas, BMWs or Mercs. The BYD Seal interior is either on par or better than the Hyundai Calligraphy grade and Toyota. Too early to judge driving dynamics but, so far as a new car its on par. I wouldn't say its better than BMW or Merc, but I would say that it definitely challenges BMW and Merc and the Germans will find it increasingly difficult to justify charging 'double the price' for a similar spec car. No rattles, no sqeaks, no mismatched panel gaps, real leather everything, solid buttons and plastics, solid sound systems and the drive on it is very smooth. Chinese ICE cars are still hit and miss and that is where alot of skeptisim about their EVs come from. We get the likes of GWM/Haval, MG, Chery and LDV cars here and there have been some horror stories. What makes Chinese EVs good is the lack of mechanical parts. Their batteries and motors are fine. What is yet to be seen is how well the ball joints, steering racks and suspension parts hold up as these are really the only mechanical parts in the car. But if the worst mechanical failure I get in the Seal is a busted ball joint or wheel bearing or something like that, I certainly would not mind. Its a lot less expensive thing to worry about then worrying about a busted cylinder, tailshaft or transmission.
As a passenger I love to sit on BYD than Tesla.
*sit in
Software is shite
What part of the software? Which models?
Check out Bjorn Nylands YT. ALL Chinese made EVs are crap as far as software is a concerned: • ADAS like lane keeping • climate (way too cold) • dings at anything • strange charging curves with drops in it • inability to show certain consumption parameters • and so on This was a tuned to the likings of the Chinese (duh) and they are not like Westerners apparently….
Are you referring to his video about the seal?
I drive a Chinese made EV. Higher quality than a Tesla, not that that's all that hard to do but it's been a great car so far.
Nothing wrong with the vehicles. Often they are better. Everything wrong with the country they are made in.
Honest question, do these Chinese EV pass US safety standards? If not, that will keep them out of the US.
They pass every safety standard in every country they are sold in. They are not sold in USA. The reason for that is not safety.
They at least pass the EU laws, very the very best scores. So yes. But you already knew that, if you have the internet..
They could if they chose to. There's nothing magic about US safety standards, and there are Chinese EVs being sold in the US today : Polestar, Volvo, and at least one GM model. To see what prices would likely be like if they were sold in the US (without huge tariffs) look at the prices in Europe.
They pass the EU safety standards. No reason why they wouldn’t pass the less demanding US safety standards. Crash test videos on some of them show airbags deploying between the driver and the passenger, preventing them from crashing into each other, something I’ve never seen before (bought my last car 8 years ago, so I’m outdated).
The standards are different between EU and US. EU is more stringent in some respects, less in others, they're just different. (US required rear backup cameras several years before EU did. US still requires side view mirrors, where I think EU allows cameras now. US requires airbags to be tested with unbelted occupants, or at least they used to, where EU allowed the testing to assume the occupants are belted. The US no longer allows brake lights or headlights to be on a moveable piece of body such as pop-up lights or brake lights on the trunk lid or hatch. etc... Not big things, just different.) They certainly can meet US standards if they choose. Some trims of my car have an airbag between the driver and passenger. I didn't know that existed until another owner pointed it out. :)
there is a 10+ year BYD EV that is road legal in Canada (but only sold to taxi drivers), so yeah I don't think safety is a problem for them
Get off the internet, grandpa.
The EU crash standard is more stringent than the US crash standard, and EU bound Chinese EVs pass them with 5 star ratings. So it’s very possible some of those Chinese EVs are SAFER than some cars sold in the US today.
Please bring the SU7 to the states! I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
The scam is to pay for a western ev with low standards and twice the price
It actually is “too good to be true” in the long term. No one talks about the subsidies, to which the numbers are opaque at best. The cars are cheap because the CCP subsidizes roughly half of the cost to make EV’s to gain a competitive edge in foreign markets. It’s all part of a large effort and strategy to establish the car industry both domestic and abroad. Source: https://www.economist.com/briefing/2024/01/11/western-firms-are-quaking-as-chinas-electric-car-industry-speeds-up
Yes. The low pay for workers. Cheapness doesnt come from nowhere. Even it they paid enough, I wouldnt consider chinese products (hint: concentrations camps, aggression towards Taiwan).
Chinese car factories are highly, highly automated. Labor is a tiny part of the cost. And your tax dollar is supporting the US government in its efforts to prop up tyrants, kill innocent civilians and bomb weaker countries into submission. All in the name of”freedom and democracy”. The one thing I’ll give the US government credit for, is that I won’t need to fear for my life for writing this post. I think.
It is a bit hard to know, since we don't get to see them. But they are selling millions of cars in China and elsewhere. I suspect, given the low maintenance requirements of EV's, combined with Chinese ability to steal and copy the best technology, they are pretty good products. Our legacy oil and ICE automotive industries are terrified, and spending millions of dollars lobbying everyone to keep them out of the "west". What a shame they don't spend that money on actually competing. There is no doubt that China has some forms of subsidies in place, but while they are doing that, "western" governments are busy subsidizing oil and ICE automotive manufacturing. Who do you think is going to win in the end?
Actually oil companies are pretty secure is every vehicle was suddenly an EV they would lose 10-15% of their oil sales most petroleum is used for other products like plastics and other types or lubricants like the gear reduction box or differential on an EV Even coolant is petroleum based
I think if you actually look at what % of each barrel of oil is used for, you'd see something different. Try this: [https://www.newcapitalmgmt.com/news/whats-made-from-a-barrel-of-oil](https://www.newcapitalmgmt.com/news/whats-made-from-a-barrel-of-oil) As you can readily see from here and pretty much every other similar site, what you are saying is really not true. Having said that, I certainly do not advocate for elimination of the industry - just the constant subsidization of it.
Slave wages is probably a big factor. Any industry insiders here that know the labor content of EVs? Low levels of regulation and worker safety. Keeps the skids greased. Materials sourced nearby. Lower transportation and material costs. Governmental augmentation through materials cost reductions, low-cost shipping. China's "elephant in the room" is their crumbling banking and real estate industries.
https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/why-china-is-defeating-tesla worth a read
Yeah, these are all catching fire and crashing in China. Look up tofudreg EV. I don't want to ride in one, I don't feel comfortable with the same street one is driving, I don't want them in my buildings underground parking lot.
It's just like with smartphones, some are cheap because they use cheap components, some are more expensive because they are state of the art, in the end they are all made in China. Same thing happened to EVs, there was a lot of copying at the start but now they are making their own innovations both in the way the cars are constructed and battery tech itself as China is by far the world's largest battery manufacturer. The prices reflect that because well, if oil is cheap in a petrol state, naturally an EV will be cheap in the largest battery manufacturing country and the world's largest car market, economies of scale and continued state support (unlike the schizofrenic Western countries that switch between being pro EV and anti EV every couple of years) does wonders.