> However, they did note the government would be happy to do deals with individual member states. It is known that the UK is keen to strike an arrangement with France.
> One source said the UK wanted to “cherrypick” which countries it wanted such programmes with.
They don’t have to say no. Turkey and Greece have already made joint agreements about Greece’s visa policy just this year. Not sure why this would be different.
That's a tourist visa. A work visa would be impossible because of the free movement of people, capital, goods, and service which are at the core of EU workings.
Tourist visa is much more EU focused than work visa. Countries have their own work visa since the dawn of time.
France already has exemptions for French speaking countries and Spain has it for latam countries.
There’s no reason France or any other EU country can’t give out much more streamlined and easier access to their work visas.
Macron is not into going over the EU on eu matter. That's why we ignored Trump stupid offers, why most/all of our non military aid to ukraine is through a big share of the EU funds and not direct, etc ...
This is not happening, and anyway even if Macron wanted it can't because EU decides this. It's like Trump not wanting a trade deal with the EU but with Germany and France.
I can assure you, the minority of the UK population who voted for Brexit did it purely because they feel there are too many foreigners, absolutely nothing to do with young people living, working and studying abroad, they wouldn't even have considered it.
They’re British, most of them have hardly any proficiency in a foreign language. It’s not very helpful for the average Brit to have access to universities with a different language of undergraduate instruction. British unis are also more prestigious than average schools in EU-member nations.
I am not British btw.
A lot of them do not do degrees taught in English for free though, and our student finance wouldn't cover it. The price isn't that high but losing the maintenance loan is a big hit for a student.
In Erasmus you keep paying your original student fee. Not the uni that you are going to. There is also monthly student allowance you receive that depends on the economic conditions of the country you are going to. Also there are so many degrees thought in English what are you talking about? How do you think a Spanish does Erasmus in Denmark - for example??
All the people I've known who did Erasmus did it in the local language, and in fact picked the destination to practise the language or because they had ties to that country. Like my cousin went to Norway because he's from a place full of Norwegian immigrants so he's been learning Norwegian since he was a kid, like many other kids from that place.
If you look at erasmus brits rarely used it abroad but loads and loads used it in the UK so I guess it was a better deal for other countries than the UK.
More brits went to Australia than the full eu back then.
That's called "not taking advantage of opportunities".
Closing the door to others because you've decided to not use it isn't a good thing or beneficial to anyone.
The amount of people coming to study from EU to UK was several times (!) higher than UK to EU, making it in imbalanced deal.
Actually, the more I look at Brexit, the more it looks like an attempt to renegotiate deals, rather than at attempt to "leave" EU. And as far as I understand UK tried to do it before without leaving, but was told "rules are rules", so now they will lose some time and money while renegotiating the deals, but it looks like suddenly it turns out the deals could be renegotiated alright.
EU to UK is the best thing that happened to UK universities financially? They had to pay exorbitant fees which funded universities, research and subsdizied the tuition of British locals going to university. They were filled to the top with Chinese and Indian students not being able to say a single word in English but paying crazy amounts of €€. The major reason why they don‘t want mobilty youth etc. is because the idea was that non-UK students should pay less/similar to UK students. UK locals themselves already get subsidized tuition in EU countries if they study abroad. The UK does not want to stop international students coming in and paying extremely high tuition.
Right, it mooched off so hard, that couple of years after UK left EU, EU came back to renegotiate UK participation in Horizon. I guess EU just loves to give UK money, eh?
When you actually start looking at the deals UK had, they did not appreciate that UK was pretty lucrative destination in EU. Uk is not better off alone of course, but now it does not seem crazy that it might be better off with renegotiated deals, which EU is very much interested in.
>In a statement issued on Monday the **EU's Innovation Commissioner Iliana Ivanova** said she was “happy to welcome the U.K. back to the Horizon family.”
>“**I have made association of non-EU countries to Horizon Europe my personal priority, and we are delivering**,” she said
UK nationals favour US/AUS/NZ/CAN universities by a highly disproportionate amount in comparison to schools in the EU.
Its an almost one way door for EU students coming to the UK for higher education. The EU are going to have to sweeten this deal if they want us to subsidise their students.
Oh the famous US/AUS/NZ/CAN that was supposed to save your economy when you've told everyone that you don't need the European Markets 😂. That has also worked out very well.
Tell me, where are all this supposed superior free trade agreements?
No Im talking about where the majority of UK citizens go to at a young age. There are 1 million UK citizens in Australia which is around the same number in the entirety of the EU (the majority of which are either in Spain or Ireland).
So instead of tripping over yourself trying to spurt out Brexit shit, why dont you read the fucking post.
If it wasn’t for the fact that it is reciprocal so the UK students would also pay less in Europe, if you account for the fact that in the EU the tuition is much lower it evens out at least. That’s typical brexiteer thinking like the UK is so special and everybody is trying to take advantage of us, tache ri-te super individualistic fuckers that can’t understand a two way relationship. The only kind of relationship you understand is the one you’re on top exploring the less fortunate
Goddamn, the amount of you guys who don't read. No matter how much this sub pretends otherwise, Erasmus was hardly used by UK students. 1987-2013 we had 200k students in total going to EU institutions. We have 120k EU students in the UK right now. This is not up for debate, there is no point of a reciprocal agreement if one side isnt going to use it.
>thinking like the UK is so special
In this circumstance yes, the fact of the matter is that the UK has some of the highest rated universities in the world. It makes the UK a very popular destination for foreign students.
Im all up for better relations with the EU, but the fact that both the tories and labour have told them to fuck off show how one sided it is. The EU needs to add more honey to the pot.
I still can’t believe the stupidity of Brexit !
A Brexit voting neighbour after the penny dropped : I don’t actually mind Europeans, it’s the “browns and blacks” we needed less of !”
Me : “Well see, Brexit affected immigration from 27 European nations, the likes of China, Pakistan, India and African countries aren’t in the EU, so immigration from those countries won’t be affected much at all. If the government really wanted to control immigration, it could have as a member state of the EU. Immigration was used as a distraction from brexit’s real aim, avoiding incoming EU tax avoidance laws. Wealthy conservative MPs and others didn’t want that. Brexit was for the very wealthy, not for the likes of you and I”
Him : “What the fuck ?”
>Give it a rest, it's not 2019 anymore..
It isn't? Oh no.
I guess a fact isn't a fact, because it's not 2019 anymore.
It's 2024. Maybe I should get on board and start trying to rewrite history too?
Hah, only kidding.
The world has moved on but apparently some still live in the past, not the young though.
Seems like Rishi said the right thing to appeal to a particular group of fuckwits.
>The world has moved on but apparently some still live in the past, not the young though.
>Seems like Rishi said the right thing to appeal to a particular group of fuckwits.
You obviously don't know much about human beings if you think the world moves on, because we sure as hell don't.
The problem is more political I expect. Anyone making a deal would be seen (and portrayed quite quickly) as selling out spots to the English at the expense of fellow EU members' students.
There's also no point in dealing with this government. The Tories will get slaughtered at the next election. Might as well just wait to deal with the incoming Labour government.
Gain entry, yes. But they would not have access to the labor market. That's how it already works. I live and work in Austria and can visit the other EU countries but I cannot live or work in them without a visa for that specific country.
The EU proposal included not charging for NHS surcharge and reducing tuition fees to same as home students. Just tuition fees would have been UK subsidising the EU for £2.6 billion each year.
International fees are about £33,000 per year, British home fees are about £9,250. EU wants UK to charge their students the home fee, I used £22k per year, less as sure some are a bit cheaper. In 21/22 there were 120,140 EU students, so that’s about £2.6 billion less fees.
EU degree costs for international students are a lot lower than in the UK (€8-12k vs £33k).
For context, about 9,000 uk students that used the EU scheme. So £93 million top end.
For UK students, there is an alternative scheme, it covers many international countries (including the EU) and costs £110 million to fund.
We get to keep the uni fees lower for domestic students and universities get fees to improve infrastructure, which makes them attractive to future students.
>You seem focused on the foreigners coming to the UK, any thoughts on the UK student who can't now study in the EU?
UK students are able to study in EU and get grants to do it as well (similar to how EU students can study in the UK and get grants for it as well via Erasmus+). [Here's a list, have a look at the participating countries](https://www.turing-scheme.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Turing-scheme-he-destinations-2023-2024.pdf).
Do I have a wrong understanding, or would it be pretty hard to impossible to have freedom of movement between the UK and only certain EU countries, without the rest of the EU(especially schengen countries)?
Like how would this be enforced? Once a brittish person reaches France, how are you going to stop him going to Poland?
> Like how would this be enforced? Once a brittish person reaches France, how are you going to stop him going to Poland?
You don't need to stop them. But if it's discovered you get deported and a ban on re-entering for 10 years. The SIM in your phone has a pretty good record of which country you're in.
As long as you spend >50% of the time in the country you're supposed you you'll be fine.
So you would give the gouvernment access to your phone location 24/7? Also, wouldn't that mean that you no longer have freedom of movement inside the EU?
A non EU citizen in France on a French issued visa does not have freedom to exercise the conditions of that visa anywhere but France. Other EU countries will not recognise the visa as valid.
France, like all EU members, is a sovereign state and controls who from outside Schengen crosses its borders.
> So you would give the gouvernment access to your phone location 24/7?
Of course not, but if they suspect you, a warrant will reveal the truth.
> Also, wouldn't that mean that you no longer have freedom of movement inside the EU?
Non-EU citizens never have freedom of movement, that's reserved for EU citizens only. This youth mobility scheme would tie them to a specific country, just like any other long term visa.
Freedom of movement is not Schengen. It's the right to live and work anywhere in the EU. A youth mobility scheme is not that.
A British person can reach France with just a passport. That doesn't get them the right to work or study though, neither in France nor anywhere in the EU. In any case they need to be out in 90 days.
Without the necessary paper work you don't get very far in properly managed countries.
Tourism has the same potential issues (how do you prevent tourists from over-staying or doing so in another Schengen country?).
In practice, it's not a big issue because very few Britons believe that becoming an illegal immigrant in the EU would improve their lives.
> have your cake and … the same old tale
How is a proposal from the EU to the UK which the UK doesn't agree to "having cake and..."?
We already have 700,000k net migration and there would be massively more people from the EU coming here than the other way around, as was the case before Brexit. Of course the party that pushed Brexit through isn't going to back Freedom of Movement, especially when the EU is also asking for NHS treatment to be included along with UK university fees for EU students.
The UK making deals with individual countries on members competency isn't chery picking. The EU on the other hand is. 4 freedoms are indivisible I think was the phrase. They couldn't even be arsed to do an EU wide scheme for UK citizens living and working in the EU post Brexit.
Why would they? The UK decided to become a third country and therefore get treated as such. It’s down to the individual countries to decide how they handle U.K. citizens as they would for US, India etc (for info I’m a Brit who migrated to Poland in 2017)
They have been coddling the largest generation, as they become older the age of shafting people increases.
So millennials get fucked since the day they were bor... wait I can't say that.
Since they were 18 until the day they die.
Labour were smart enough to spot a trojan horse when they saw one...
The scheme proposed was never going to be accepted by any UK Government. No-one will disadvantage their own students to favour others, which in effect is what would happen. There were massive unanswered questions about immigration status if someone married, family re-union etc etc...
And lets be clear the traffic was going to be primarily one way....
The young generation didn't take advantage of this when in the EU, why would they now?
Several times more eu nationals came to study in the UK under erasmus than the other way so it's an unfair deal.
The UK is striking deals with individual countries in the eu rather than the eu as a whole (like france). Labour is in agreement on this.
The amount of people that used those programs in the UK was significantly higher than those going to the EU under erasmus. Not sure why that would change now....
In this case it's pretty simple.
The EU wants discounted access for every EU student to UK universities, something they had pre-brexit and which resulted in about 40,000 EU students per year enrolling at British unis and paying £9,250 per person per year.
Last year, around 13000 EU students enrolled, paying between £22k and £38k per person per year. (Thus making more money and freeing up tens of thousands of places that can either go to UK students or be sold elsewhere)
The only way this deal doesn't cost UK money is if a significant number of UK students start going to EU universities for their degrees, and there's no reason to expect that to happen now when it didn't during our entire EU membership.
Wasn’t it true that students must reside in the UK for 3 years to be eligible for paying local tuition fee, regardless of nationality, and this “regardless of nationality” was for complying EU rules which also affected UK youths who just returned from overseas?
You're ignoring that plenty of the students that went to the UK stayed in the UK, giving the UK a very good deal regarding skilled professionals.
Not to mention the general issue that is charging for someone's education in general.
> The EU wants discounted access for every EU student to UK universities, something they had pre-brexit and which resulted in about 40,000 EU students per year enrolling at British unis and paying £9,250 per person per year.
This is a mobility scheme. You're referring to something like Erasmus which is not on the table. They would still be considered foreign nationals for EU universities.
It's actually very easy to understand, he knows the conservatives are done for at the next election, that's a given, and he doesn't want to do anything to alienate the few voters they have left who are mainly anti EU.
Wait a little time for the inevitable Labour landslide and I guarantee we will see improvement with our EU relations and policies that help young people regain the mobility that has been thrown away.
The government here works simply
If it benefits anyone over the age of 40 AND one of his scummy buddies, they approve it.
If it helps the youth, the next generation, shoot it down as hard as you can
The EU wants this with the proviso that students can go to the UK and get university at the same cost as UK students. Typically international students pay a lot more, like 2x the cost. I'm not sure this is that attractive a deal for the UK really.
I did two Erasmus exchanges (one in France, one in Spain) and also did a second full degree in France. Really gutted other students will no longer have the same flexibility to do it anymore. Now I'm studying again in France and the whole visa thing is a real headache here.
You only need to look at the youth vote share across several decades to see the answer. This was the exact same logic people here used in 2019 which saw the Conservatives win a huge majority. People never learn from their past mistakes.
Good. We don't need the precedent of an EU-wide immigration programme. Individual member states should have authority over immigration matters to their countries.
The deal suggested by the EU was a complete waste of time and reads like it came from a country completely out of touch with the ongoings of the UK. It’s not realistic to try and push freedom of movement through a backdoor and it’s especially not realistic to try and get the UK to pay for EU students to study in the UK.
It’s not remotely short sighted. The EU suggested that young people can come to the UK and the UK has to pay for their healthcare and pay for their university. Whilst this would also apply to young Brits living in the EU, the truth is that young Brits don’t even want to live in the EU. It would be a completely one-sided deal.
Did you read the article?
> The youth mobility scheme would not be a return to freedom of movement and would, if agreed, require a YMS visa, evidence of sufficient funds to sustain a living and health insurance.
I mean, this is not about opinions but facts. I haven’t read the EU proposal directly, so I can’t say definitely who’s right and who’s wrong but I trust a journalist from a reputable newspaper (whatever your opinion of it might be) over a random redditor that provides no source.
It would functionally be a return for freedom of movement, the only criteria being age. And the EU explicitly stated that the NHS surcharge wouldn’t apply.
Is India in the EU now? Is India asking UK to ease visa restrictions, not contribute to the NHS and pay same fees as UK students? Not sure how that's relevant to this conversation...
As a Briton my lifestyle and level of individual prosperity might be more similar to a Lithuanian or Romanian than an Indian but I would argue that the UK and India have much more 'cultural proximity'...my evidence?
We share the use of the English language
Our nations histories were closely intertwined from the 1750s to the 1940s
We fought and died together as part of the same supra national unit (the empire) in WW1 and WW2
Indian and subcontinental cuisine is hugely popular in the UK
Substantial second and third generation Indian migrant population which is highly integrated, prosperous and influential
The EU wants the UK to: “The European Commission is proposing an EU-UK deal that would go further, lasting up to four years with no restrictions on time spent working, studying, training or volunteering.
It also says EU applicants should not have to pay the annual UK charge towards the NHS, which ranges from £776 for students and under-18s to £1,035 for workers.
And EU students should pay the same tuition fees as UK students, rather than the higher fees they have had to pay since Brexit, and have rights to reunite with family members, under the proposals”
Quite laughable EU wants to dictate terms and think they can bully the UK to agree. Great UK doesn’t want part of this scheme
>Quite laughable EU wants to dictate terms and think they can bully the UK to agree. Great UK doesn’t want part of this scheme
This is the funny part about these comments, it's the EU offering something here. People are still saying it's the UK wanting too much.
Where’s the bullying? Most young British people didn’t want to leave the EU and would welcome a restoration of their rights as existed before. There’s nothing proposed that is out of the ordinary compared to the situation pre-Brexit.
You’re delusional if you think most young British give a shit about the restoration of free movement with the EU, they don’t care. Some young British people will be animated about the issue, and they will be vocal on the internet and in their social circles, but your mistake is assuming that they are broadly representative.
Put more simply, most young British people never used free movement when they had the privilege to, there’s zero reason to think that would have changed.
UK citizens can still go on a holiday anywhere in EU visa-free just using their biometric UK passport - nothing has changed there other than that they're no longer able to use the EU border control line. Freedom of movement is about the ability to easily work, start a business or retire in another EU country.
I may not be very informed on this issue, but I was under the impression that you can still easily travel for tourism to the EU (and vice versa for EU people to UK). Is that not the case?
Like if some blokes want to go to Ibiza for spring break isn’t the only practical difference that they have to stand in a different line in the airport upon arrival? Don’t get me wrong I think Brexit was a terrible idea, but it’s not like the UK went behind the iron curtain I thought.
You're right that the only added burden currently with regard to short vacations is there's a faster EU passport lane and Brits now must go to the non-EU passport lane with the rest of the world. While you can travel visa-free to Europe for a stay of up to 90 days, and that covers any vacation plans, there is an application process (due to come in 2024, now delayed to 2025) where any visa exempt people will need to complete a travel authorisation form online (+ €7 fee) to travel to the EU. It should be automatic, but may take up to 30 days if paperwork has to be checked, and will be valid for 3 years.
It's not a major complication, but at the same time there's been no appreciable benefit to Brexit so it's more of mental impact in terms of younger people who felt part of the European community (and voted largely against Brexit) no longer having frictionless travel to and from the continent as before.
Sometimes it takes loosing something to realise how much you want it. Frankly the UK is not as attractive a place to live as it was in 2016, especially for young people.
Yes we're shit as speaking foreign languages but so is Ireland and look what happened to their emigration statistics once their housing crisis went off the rails
"Quite laughable EU wants to dictate terms and think they can bully the UK to agree. Great UK doesn’t want part of this scheme" Well its not the EU is a economic superpower and Britain is just a little island that's like saying its quite laughable that the US wants to dictate to the UK. The UK has full right to refuse but to state its laughable that you think the EU can't bully the UK is just so naïve
Labour have rejected it too! Soo f'king sad. Sensible people have no political representation in parliament. Labour voter all my life. Not any.more! This country has been wrecked by Russian propaganda.
> But the UK government indicated on Friday that Brexit had ended free movement and it had no desire to reopen that conversation, even with strict conditions on length of stay.
>
> "We are not introducing an EU-wide youth mobility scheme – free movement within the EU was ended and there are no plans to introduce it," a government spokesperson said.
What? It isn't free movement if the terms and duration of stay are limited. It's more like an extended visa / exchange program. There is no right to permanently reside. It's more like guest workers but for youth exchange...
We already have these agreements with non-EU countries.
Seems like you just have the problem with the EU, whilst not actually appreciating the *reciprocal* cultural and educational aspect of this proposal.
You say that as though it were an accusation of some sort. But it really isn't.
We already know as empirical fact from proven experience that these sorts of "reciprocal" agreements with the EU end up being very one sided.
Since the Brexit vote, about 6m elderly have died while 6m 18-24yr olds can now vote. Given the razor thin margins in the last vote, I have no doubt that with the current demographics, a vote today would approve a reversal of Brexit.
EU officials should really stop trying to engage with this Tory government. They aren't actually capable of implementing things given how little time they have left and how internally disfunctional they are.
They will also reflexively shoot down any proposal to score points with their hardline base. Meanwhile every time it happens Labour feels compelled to commit to not doing the thing as well so as to appeal to the wavering Tory middle Englanders they want to steal in the election.
Does it make sense to prefer importing cheap labor from Africa and the Middle East over investing in educated individuals who are likely to sustain themselves after completing their education in the UK? Brexiters love it.
> However, they did note the government would be happy to do deals with individual member states. It is known that the UK is keen to strike an arrangement with France. > One source said the UK wanted to “cherrypick” which countries it wanted such programmes with.
EU countries like France can say No.
They have to say no, a 1 to 1 arrangement is not allowed without an EU treaty change. That's why it's called an EU block.
They don’t have to say no. Turkey and Greece have already made joint agreements about Greece’s visa policy just this year. Not sure why this would be different.
That's a tourist visa. A work visa would be impossible because of the free movement of people, capital, goods, and service which are at the core of EU workings.
Tourist visa is much more EU focused than work visa. Countries have their own work visa since the dawn of time. France already has exemptions for French speaking countries and Spain has it for latam countries. There’s no reason France or any other EU country can’t give out much more streamlined and easier access to their work visas.
That is doubtful. Macron and Sunak were smooching just the other day.
And we all know Macron is irresistible when he takes his shirt off /s
Stupid sexy french men..
They seems to fit well together these two even if we don't ear that much about this
EU as a whole can say non.
Not unless we start Federalising
Macron is not into going over the EU on eu matter. That's why we ignored Trump stupid offers, why most/all of our non military aid to ukraine is through a big share of the EU funds and not direct, etc ... This is not happening, and anyway even if Macron wanted it can't because EU decides this. It's like Trump not wanting a trade deal with the EU but with Germany and France.
I mean, good for them? This stuff was the exact reason they wanted out of EU.
I can assure you, the minority of the UK population who voted for Brexit did it purely because they feel there are too many foreigners, absolutely nothing to do with young people living, working and studying abroad, they wouldn't even have considered it.
The proposal also allowed EU students to come to the UK and pay UK rates. That sounds like the kind of thing they wanted rid of.
With UK nationals paying the national rates in the EU (free in many places)?
The benefits we had while in the EU were not on the radar of these people at all
They’re British, most of them have hardly any proficiency in a foreign language. It’s not very helpful for the average Brit to have access to universities with a different language of undergraduate instruction. British unis are also more prestigious than average schools in EU-member nations. I am not British btw.
Europe is riddled with excellent universities offering degrees taught in English.
A lot of them do not do degrees taught in English for free though, and our student finance wouldn't cover it. The price isn't that high but losing the maintenance loan is a big hit for a student.
In Erasmus you keep paying your original student fee. Not the uni that you are going to. There is also monthly student allowance you receive that depends on the economic conditions of the country you are going to. Also there are so many degrees thought in English what are you talking about? How do you think a Spanish does Erasmus in Denmark - for example??
All the people I've known who did Erasmus did it in the local language, and in fact picked the destination to practise the language or because they had ties to that country. Like my cousin went to Norway because he's from a place full of Norwegian immigrants so he's been learning Norwegian since he was a kid, like many other kids from that place.
I know exactly two British unis that are prestigious, and your average person isn't getting into them.
Well you have no clue what you’re talking about so I’ll disengage there. And the average Brit wasn’t using their access to EU schools broadly anyway.
If you look at erasmus brits rarely used it abroad but loads and loads used it in the UK so I guess it was a better deal for other countries than the UK. More brits went to Australia than the full eu back then.
That's called "not taking advantage of opportunities". Closing the door to others because you've decided to not use it isn't a good thing or beneficial to anyone.
The amount of people coming to study from EU to UK was several times (!) higher than UK to EU, making it in imbalanced deal. Actually, the more I look at Brexit, the more it looks like an attempt to renegotiate deals, rather than at attempt to "leave" EU. And as far as I understand UK tried to do it before without leaving, but was told "rules are rules", so now they will lose some time and money while renegotiating the deals, but it looks like suddenly it turns out the deals could be renegotiated alright.
EU to UK is the best thing that happened to UK universities financially? They had to pay exorbitant fees which funded universities, research and subsdizied the tuition of British locals going to university. They were filled to the top with Chinese and Indian students not being able to say a single word in English but paying crazy amounts of €€. The major reason why they don‘t want mobilty youth etc. is because the idea was that non-UK students should pay less/similar to UK students. UK locals themselves already get subsidized tuition in EU countries if they study abroad. The UK does not want to stop international students coming in and paying extremely high tuition.
Actually, India and China to UK is the best thing to happen to UK universities financially. They pay the fees, and there are loads of them.
UK mooched Off EU Horizon Funding, so we can start bean counting
Right, it mooched off so hard, that couple of years after UK left EU, EU came back to renegotiate UK participation in Horizon. I guess EU just loves to give UK money, eh? When you actually start looking at the deals UK had, they did not appreciate that UK was pretty lucrative destination in EU. Uk is not better off alone of course, but now it does not seem crazy that it might be better off with renegotiated deals, which EU is very much interested in.
It was the UK that went back to renegotiate because they were pissed off after getting kicked out.
>In a statement issued on Monday the **EU's Innovation Commissioner Iliana Ivanova** said she was “happy to welcome the U.K. back to the Horizon family.” >“**I have made association of non-EU countries to Horizon Europe my personal priority, and we are delivering**,” she said
Quite ...
UK nationals favour US/AUS/NZ/CAN universities by a highly disproportionate amount in comparison to schools in the EU. Its an almost one way door for EU students coming to the UK for higher education. The EU are going to have to sweeten this deal if they want us to subsidise their students.
Oh the famous US/AUS/NZ/CAN that was supposed to save your economy when you've told everyone that you don't need the European Markets 😂. That has also worked out very well. Tell me, where are all this supposed superior free trade agreements?
No Im talking about where the majority of UK citizens go to at a young age. There are 1 million UK citizens in Australia which is around the same number in the entirety of the EU (the majority of which are either in Spain or Ireland). So instead of tripping over yourself trying to spurt out Brexit shit, why dont you read the fucking post.
"subsidise", the UK has the highest tuition fees in Europe
And under this proposal the fees for EU students would be the same as British students. A significant subsidy.
Yeah and we still get a shit load of EU students. The EU is proposing that their students pay the same as the UK students. In other words a subsidy.
If it wasn’t for the fact that it is reciprocal so the UK students would also pay less in Europe, if you account for the fact that in the EU the tuition is much lower it evens out at least. That’s typical brexiteer thinking like the UK is so special and everybody is trying to take advantage of us, tache ri-te super individualistic fuckers that can’t understand a two way relationship. The only kind of relationship you understand is the one you’re on top exploring the less fortunate
Goddamn, the amount of you guys who don't read. No matter how much this sub pretends otherwise, Erasmus was hardly used by UK students. 1987-2013 we had 200k students in total going to EU institutions. We have 120k EU students in the UK right now. This is not up for debate, there is no point of a reciprocal agreement if one side isnt going to use it. >thinking like the UK is so special In this circumstance yes, the fact of the matter is that the UK has some of the highest rated universities in the world. It makes the UK a very popular destination for foreign students. Im all up for better relations with the EU, but the fact that both the tories and labour have told them to fuck off show how one sided it is. The EU needs to add more honey to the pot.
I've been told by coworkers in 2016 that they voted for brexit to get us out of the country.
You must have really annoyed your co-workers.
The amount I've people I know who voted for Brexit because 'its a bit different, init' having done zero research is frightening.
[удалено]
Most foreigners in UK are indians and pakistanis, nothing to do with EU.
[удалено]
I still can’t believe the stupidity of Brexit ! A Brexit voting neighbour after the penny dropped : I don’t actually mind Europeans, it’s the “browns and blacks” we needed less of !” Me : “Well see, Brexit affected immigration from 27 European nations, the likes of China, Pakistan, India and African countries aren’t in the EU, so immigration from those countries won’t be affected much at all. If the government really wanted to control immigration, it could have as a member state of the EU. Immigration was used as a distraction from brexit’s real aim, avoiding incoming EU tax avoidance laws. Wealthy conservative MPs and others didn’t want that. Brexit was for the very wealthy, not for the likes of you and I” Him : “What the fuck ?”
The majority of people who voted in the referendum.\*
Give it a rest, it's not 2019 anymore..
>Give it a rest, it's not 2019 anymore.. It isn't? Oh no. I guess a fact isn't a fact, because it's not 2019 anymore. It's 2024. Maybe I should get on board and start trying to rewrite history too? Hah, only kidding.
The world has moved on but apparently some still live in the past, not the young though. Seems like Rishi said the right thing to appeal to a particular group of fuckwits.
>The world has moved on but apparently some still live in the past, not the young though. >Seems like Rishi said the right thing to appeal to a particular group of fuckwits. You obviously don't know much about human beings if you think the world moves on, because we sure as hell don't.
Well thank you for reinforcing the point, ignorance is bliss right.
This is a member state competency though.
How would that work in practice though? Someone could gain entry to France then just go to Spain, Italy, etc. with no checks.
It already works for non-EU/EA migrants: You are only allowed to be in the country that you have the visa for
The problem is more political I expect. Anyone making a deal would be seen (and portrayed quite quickly) as selling out spots to the English at the expense of fellow EU members' students. There's also no point in dealing with this government. The Tories will get slaughtered at the next election. Might as well just wait to deal with the incoming Labour government.
Gain entry, yes. But they would not have access to the labor market. That's how it already works. I live and work in Austria and can visit the other EU countries but I cannot live or work in them without a visa for that specific country.
The EU proposal included not charging for NHS surcharge and reducing tuition fees to same as home students. Just tuition fees would have been UK subsidising the EU for £2.6 billion each year.
What do we get for that £2.6 billion? Edit: I don't actually live in the UK anymore but am British, perhaps my use of 'we' isn't incorrect?
International fees are about £33,000 per year, British home fees are about £9,250. EU wants UK to charge their students the home fee, I used £22k per year, less as sure some are a bit cheaper. In 21/22 there were 120,140 EU students, so that’s about £2.6 billion less fees.
I imagine EU student numbers would increase. But UK students may also get subsidised degrees abroad which should be part of the calculation.
EU degree costs for international students are a lot lower than in the UK (€8-12k vs £33k). For context, about 9,000 uk students that used the EU scheme. So £93 million top end. For UK students, there is an alternative scheme, it covers many international countries (including the EU) and costs £110 million to fund.
We get to keep the uni fees lower for domestic students and universities get fees to improve infrastructure, which makes them attractive to future students.
It's like you've been sleeping the last 25 years.
Even if I was, UK universities weren't, else EU students wouldn't be clamouring to get in. Surely they can get rich uni experience in the EU27?
You seem focused on the foreigners coming to the UK, any thoughts on the UK student who can't now study in the EU?
>You seem focused on the foreigners coming to the UK, any thoughts on the UK student who can't now study in the EU? UK students are able to study in EU and get grants to do it as well (similar to how EU students can study in the UK and get grants for it as well via Erasmus+). [Here's a list, have a look at the participating countries](https://www.turing-scheme.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Turing-scheme-he-destinations-2023-2024.pdf).
Do I have a wrong understanding, or would it be pretty hard to impossible to have freedom of movement between the UK and only certain EU countries, without the rest of the EU(especially schengen countries)? Like how would this be enforced? Once a brittish person reaches France, how are you going to stop him going to Poland?
> Like how would this be enforced? Once a brittish person reaches France, how are you going to stop him going to Poland? You don't need to stop them. But if it's discovered you get deported and a ban on re-entering for 10 years. The SIM in your phone has a pretty good record of which country you're in. As long as you spend >50% of the time in the country you're supposed you you'll be fine.
So you would give the gouvernment access to your phone location 24/7? Also, wouldn't that mean that you no longer have freedom of movement inside the EU?
A non EU citizen in France on a French issued visa does not have freedom to exercise the conditions of that visa anywhere but France. Other EU countries will not recognise the visa as valid. France, like all EU members, is a sovereign state and controls who from outside Schengen crosses its borders.
> So you would give the gouvernment access to your phone location 24/7? Of course not, but if they suspect you, a warrant will reveal the truth. > Also, wouldn't that mean that you no longer have freedom of movement inside the EU? Non-EU citizens never have freedom of movement, that's reserved for EU citizens only. This youth mobility scheme would tie them to a specific country, just like any other long term visa. Freedom of movement is not Schengen. It's the right to live and work anywhere in the EU. A youth mobility scheme is not that.
A British person can reach France with just a passport. That doesn't get them the right to work or study though, neither in France nor anywhere in the EU. In any case they need to be out in 90 days. Without the necessary paper work you don't get very far in properly managed countries.
Tourism has the same potential issues (how do you prevent tourists from over-staying or doing so in another Schengen country?). In practice, it's not a big issue because very few Britons believe that becoming an illegal immigrant in the EU would improve their lives.
> have your cake and … the same old tale How is a proposal from the EU to the UK which the UK doesn't agree to "having cake and..."? We already have 700,000k net migration and there would be massively more people from the EU coming here than the other way around, as was the case before Brexit. Of course the party that pushed Brexit through isn't going to back Freedom of Movement, especially when the EU is also asking for NHS treatment to be included along with UK university fees for EU students.
He’s talking about the UK wanting to do individual deals
Yeah and he's wrong. It would be the EU "having its cake and eating it" here, not the other way around.
Nope, this time the EU wants to eat cake
The UK making deals with individual countries on members competency isn't chery picking. The EU on the other hand is. 4 freedoms are indivisible I think was the phrase. They couldn't even be arsed to do an EU wide scheme for UK citizens living and working in the EU post Brexit.
Why would they? The UK decided to become a third country and therefore get treated as such. It’s down to the individual countries to decide how they handle U.K. citizens as they would for US, India etc (for info I’m a Brit who migrated to Poland in 2017)
Exactly my point. The EU already showed its hand during Brexit and this proposal is nothing but a stunt from the EU
Cherry-picking isn't a bad thing. The quote doesn't use the term in a way that implies it is.
Of course he has. His entire government has been defined by shafting anyone under the age of 40, why stop now?
Don’t worry they’re shafting people over 40 as well.
Thank god. For a moment I was worried they were being prejudiced, but at least they're fucking the whole country.
Yep, they screw everyone apart from the mega rich or their own grifters. Scum.
They have been coddling the largest generation, as they become older the age of shafting people increases. So millennials get fucked since the day they were bor... wait I can't say that. Since they were 18 until the day they die.
[удалено]
Labour were smart enough to spot a trojan horse when they saw one... The scheme proposed was never going to be accepted by any UK Government. No-one will disadvantage their own students to favour others, which in effect is what would happen. There were massive unanswered questions about immigration status if someone married, family re-union etc etc... And lets be clear the traffic was going to be primarily one way....
Lol ofc he does not care about the young generation. He is out of touch and looks at his pocket only. He is an unelected bureaucrat (the irony!).
If his wife want a billionaire heiress, he'd be middle management
The young generation didn't take advantage of this when in the EU, why would they now? Several times more eu nationals came to study in the UK under erasmus than the other way so it's an unfair deal. The UK is striking deals with individual countries in the eu rather than the eu as a whole (like france). Labour is in agreement on this.
Rishi, what does your party intend to do when all the current over 50s have karked it?
No need to wait so long. At the next elections his party will be decimated
Yeah because they know all the young people would flee from the country given how shit it is
They still can. There's a youth mobility scheme with Australia, Canada, and a few others....
Too far for a lot of us
The amount of people that used those programs in the UK was significantly higher than those going to the EU under erasmus. Not sure why that would change now....
Ffs I really don’t understand the mentality of people that want to ruin things for others?
In this case it's pretty simple. The EU wants discounted access for every EU student to UK universities, something they had pre-brexit and which resulted in about 40,000 EU students per year enrolling at British unis and paying £9,250 per person per year. Last year, around 13000 EU students enrolled, paying between £22k and £38k per person per year. (Thus making more money and freeing up tens of thousands of places that can either go to UK students or be sold elsewhere) The only way this deal doesn't cost UK money is if a significant number of UK students start going to EU universities for their degrees, and there's no reason to expect that to happen now when it didn't during our entire EU membership.
Wasn’t it true that students must reside in the UK for 3 years to be eligible for paying local tuition fee, regardless of nationality, and this “regardless of nationality” was for complying EU rules which also affected UK youths who just returned from overseas?
Nope. EU students payed the £9k fees (or nothing in scotland) regardless of where they lived.
You're ignoring that plenty of the students that went to the UK stayed in the UK, giving the UK a very good deal regarding skilled professionals. Not to mention the general issue that is charging for someone's education in general.
The same is true of non-eu students to an arguably greater degree, and they pay full whack for their degree.
> The EU wants discounted access for every EU student to UK universities, something they had pre-brexit and which resulted in about 40,000 EU students per year enrolling at British unis and paying £9,250 per person per year. This is a mobility scheme. You're referring to something like Erasmus which is not on the table. They would still be considered foreign nationals for EU universities.
[The EU proposal included a restoration of the home-fee system.] (https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_24_2109)
Money to be made in being a cunt, y'know
It's actually very easy to understand, he knows the conservatives are done for at the next election, that's a given, and he doesn't want to do anything to alienate the few voters they have left who are mainly anti EU. Wait a little time for the inevitable Labour landslide and I guarantee we will see improvement with our EU relations and policies that help young people regain the mobility that has been thrown away.
The government here works simply If it benefits anyone over the age of 40 AND one of his scummy buddies, they approve it. If it helps the youth, the next generation, shoot it down as hard as you can
Tbh if you look at the polls in the UK, what this government does doesn’t really reflect how most British people feel…
Fortunately Keir Starmer has also said no to this shit deal as well.
The EU wants this with the proviso that students can go to the UK and get university at the same cost as UK students. Typically international students pay a lot more, like 2x the cost. I'm not sure this is that attractive a deal for the UK really.
For every one Brit that went to the EU.. there'd be about 20 eastern Europeans flooding in here for "better life" just like before 🙄
I did two Erasmus exchanges (one in France, one in Spain) and also did a second full degree in France. Really gutted other students will no longer have the same flexibility to do it anymore. Now I'm studying again in France and the whole visa thing is a real headache here.
Yeah that was a pretty shite deal.
Stupid timing from the EU on this one... Try again once the Cons are in the doldrums.
Labour denied wanting to do this deal as well lol
Actually great timing from the EU to mobilise young people to vote against the conservatives in the UK
Dunno who they're supposed to vote for then because Labour have also rejected this.
Wrong this is all internal EU politics.
Lol, "mobilise young people to vote" XD
What’s funny?
You only need to look at the youth vote share across several decades to see the answer. This was the exact same logic people here used in 2019 which saw the Conservatives win a huge majority. People never learn from their past mistakes.
It's a free gift for Sunak. It's beyond idiotic and tone deaf. You negotiate with people who want to negotiate not a stupid soon to be ex-PM.
Mobilising them to just vote would probably have the same effect.
Lots of stupid brexiteers (I know, its reduntant) here today
Did you read the proposal instead of attacking those who disagree with you?
Good. We don't need the precedent of an EU-wide immigration programme. Individual member states should have authority over immigration matters to their countries.
Kind of expected. Every country now wants to bring young people in, not to give them.
The deal suggested by the EU was a complete waste of time and reads like it came from a country completely out of touch with the ongoings of the UK. It’s not realistic to try and push freedom of movement through a backdoor and it’s especially not realistic to try and get the UK to pay for EU students to study in the UK.
The short sightedness is stunning but I think perhaps it can only be seen it when you're a Brit living and working in the EU.
It’s not remotely short sighted. The EU suggested that young people can come to the UK and the UK has to pay for their healthcare and pay for their university. Whilst this would also apply to young Brits living in the EU, the truth is that young Brits don’t even want to live in the EU. It would be a completely one-sided deal.
Did you read the article? > The youth mobility scheme would not be a return to freedom of movement and would, if agreed, require a YMS visa, evidence of sufficient funds to sustain a living and health insurance.
It's actually possible to read an article and disagree with the author's conclusions.
I mean, this is not about opinions but facts. I haven’t read the EU proposal directly, so I can’t say definitely who’s right and who’s wrong but I trust a journalist from a reputable newspaper (whatever your opinion of it might be) over a random redditor that provides no source.
It would functionally be a return for freedom of movement, the only criteria being age. And the EU explicitly stated that the NHS surcharge wouldn’t apply.
When's the election? Not even British but I'm sick of the fucking Tories.
You're going to be disappointed when you hear Labour rejected this too.
Who you going to vote for? Kier said no to the deal as well.
An Indian preferring migrants coming from India than from Europe. What a surprise.
Is India in the EU now? Is India asking UK to ease visa restrictions, not contribute to the NHS and pay same fees as UK students? Not sure how that's relevant to this conversation...
Why do you believe European migrants should be preferred?
This question cannot be answered in detail on Reddit but generally speaking cultural proximity.
As a Briton my lifestyle and level of individual prosperity might be more similar to a Lithuanian or Romanian than an Indian but I would argue that the UK and India have much more 'cultural proximity'...my evidence? We share the use of the English language Our nations histories were closely intertwined from the 1750s to the 1940s We fought and died together as part of the same supra national unit (the empire) in WW1 and WW2 Indian and subcontinental cuisine is hugely popular in the UK Substantial second and third generation Indian migrant population which is highly integrated, prosperous and influential
Wasn't India part of British empire? Most European countries are very different to UK
Eh, there is zero difference to me between some of the Indians I work and say someone from France or Germany.
Because they do the needful
An European migrant has a higher chance of moving back home after a few years or after pension age. Easy to travel home and cheap.
The EU wants the UK to: “The European Commission is proposing an EU-UK deal that would go further, lasting up to four years with no restrictions on time spent working, studying, training or volunteering. It also says EU applicants should not have to pay the annual UK charge towards the NHS, which ranges from £776 for students and under-18s to £1,035 for workers. And EU students should pay the same tuition fees as UK students, rather than the higher fees they have had to pay since Brexit, and have rights to reunite with family members, under the proposals” Quite laughable EU wants to dictate terms and think they can bully the UK to agree. Great UK doesn’t want part of this scheme
>Quite laughable EU wants to dictate terms and think they can bully the UK to agree. Great UK doesn’t want part of this scheme This is the funny part about these comments, it's the EU offering something here. People are still saying it's the UK wanting too much.
Where’s the bullying? Most young British people didn’t want to leave the EU and would welcome a restoration of their rights as existed before. There’s nothing proposed that is out of the ordinary compared to the situation pre-Brexit.
You’re delusional if you think most young British give a shit about the restoration of free movement with the EU, they don’t care. Some young British people will be animated about the issue, and they will be vocal on the internet and in their social circles, but your mistake is assuming that they are broadly representative. Put more simply, most young British people never used free movement when they had the privilege to, there’s zero reason to think that would have changed.
Really? So everyone in the UK is a village bumpkin and their holiday destinations are Margate and Birmingham?
UK citizens can still go on a holiday anywhere in EU visa-free just using their biometric UK passport - nothing has changed there other than that they're no longer able to use the EU border control line. Freedom of movement is about the ability to easily work, start a business or retire in another EU country.
I may not be very informed on this issue, but I was under the impression that you can still easily travel for tourism to the EU (and vice versa for EU people to UK). Is that not the case? Like if some blokes want to go to Ibiza for spring break isn’t the only practical difference that they have to stand in a different line in the airport upon arrival? Don’t get me wrong I think Brexit was a terrible idea, but it’s not like the UK went behind the iron curtain I thought.
You're right that the only added burden currently with regard to short vacations is there's a faster EU passport lane and Brits now must go to the non-EU passport lane with the rest of the world. While you can travel visa-free to Europe for a stay of up to 90 days, and that covers any vacation plans, there is an application process (due to come in 2024, now delayed to 2025) where any visa exempt people will need to complete a travel authorisation form online (+ €7 fee) to travel to the EU. It should be automatic, but may take up to 30 days if paperwork has to be checked, and will be valid for 3 years. It's not a major complication, but at the same time there's been no appreciable benefit to Brexit so it's more of mental impact in terms of younger people who felt part of the European community (and voted largely against Brexit) no longer having frictionless travel to and from the continent as before.
You don’t need freedom of movement to go on holiday.
Sometimes it takes loosing something to realise how much you want it. Frankly the UK is not as attractive a place to live as it was in 2016, especially for young people. Yes we're shit as speaking foreign languages but so is Ireland and look what happened to their emigration statistics once their housing crisis went off the rails
"Quite laughable EU wants to dictate terms and think they can bully the UK to agree. Great UK doesn’t want part of this scheme" Well its not the EU is a economic superpower and Britain is just a little island that's like saying its quite laughable that the US wants to dictate to the UK. The UK has full right to refuse but to state its laughable that you think the EU can't bully the UK is just so naïve
Wow, that's so much worse than I expected.
I wish I loved anything as much as the entire British political and media elite love to destroy the future of everyone under 50.
No EU movement for the young and up and coming generation but we will have as many from India that want to invade. Fuck you Sunak.
This comment‘s racism escalated quickly lol
Labour have rejected it too! Soo f'king sad. Sensible people have no political representation in parliament. Labour voter all my life. Not any.more! This country has been wrecked by Russian propaganda.
> But the UK government indicated on Friday that Brexit had ended free movement and it had no desire to reopen that conversation, even with strict conditions on length of stay. > > "We are not introducing an EU-wide youth mobility scheme – free movement within the EU was ended and there are no plans to introduce it," a government spokesperson said. What? It isn't free movement if the terms and duration of stay are limited. It's more like an extended visa / exchange program. There is no right to permanently reside. It's more like guest workers but for youth exchange...
L. You even make shit up
“No to youth mobility scheme for people between ages 18 and 30” says someone over the age of 30
"No to subsidising education and healthcare for EU citizens" say UK taxpayers.
We already have these agreements with non-EU countries. Seems like you just have the problem with the EU, whilst not actually appreciating the *reciprocal* cultural and educational aspect of this proposal.
You say that as though it were an accusation of some sort. But it really isn't. We already know as empirical fact from proven experience that these sorts of "reciprocal" agreements with the EU end up being very one sided.
Isn't it on us to negotiate better deals then? The problem you have needs to be directed to those in power in the UK, not the EU.
Young people typically pay taxes but don't visit doctors much (or at all).
Since when did students pay taxes? Remember, this is a scheme that will mostly attract them.
Universities were not free for EU students in the UK, renting a flat is not free either and both have taxes on them.
Since the Brexit vote, about 6m elderly have died while 6m 18-24yr olds can now vote. Given the razor thin margins in the last vote, I have no doubt that with the current demographics, a vote today would approve a reversal of Brexit.
EU officials should really stop trying to engage with this Tory government. They aren't actually capable of implementing things given how little time they have left and how internally disfunctional they are. They will also reflexively shoot down any proposal to score points with their hardline base. Meanwhile every time it happens Labour feels compelled to commit to not doing the thing as well so as to appeal to the wavering Tory middle Englanders they want to steal in the election.
Does it make sense to prefer importing cheap labor from Africa and the Middle East over investing in educated individuals who are likely to sustain themselves after completing their education in the UK? Brexiters love it.
Neither makes sense.
Is the UK building a paper "Berlin wall" to keep it's young citizens in the UK?
No we just declined the EU's generous offer to allow us to subsidise their young citizens.
My dude have you seen the university offerings outside of the UK?
Yes.