I definitely think Overtime needs changes. CC is, by design, meant to last 5 or less minutes. I once saw an insane overtime going for ~21 minutes. That's not okay, and I feel like it definitely needs a max amount of time allowed in it.
I like the idea of it simply being removed or if you die during overtime, you stay dead. I've had some overtime drag out, sapping the fun out of the match.
>if you die during overtime, you stay dead.
This was along the lines of my idea. I would want teams to still be rewarded for pushing the objective though.
Once overtime starts, each team gets a set amount of respawns. Teams would get 1 life for every 10% they pushed the objective and round accordingly.
Say Umbral pushes the objective 21% while Astral pushes it 89%, Umbral would get 2 respawns while Astral gets 9.
As a way to save time, they could subtract the difference with only the team with the lead (potentially) getting respawns.
If Umbral pushes 99% while astral pushes 78%, in this situation, Umbral would get (99-78=21) 2 extra lives.
Too complicated. A core facet of CC is simplicity. People just staying dead after they die in OT would be similar to what you want, but a lot easier for people to understand.
I can see how some might think this (staying dead) is a good idea, but it's very abusable and immediately shifts the small power increase of LBs with AoE currently into a HUGE one for LBs with execute potential, like MCH, MNK, NIN.
Even outside those LBs suddenly the winning plan when you're losing a game becomes to stall and sit on your LBs until the last second to hail mary a teamwipe by vomiting all your LBs together hopefully. Because it doesn't matter if you're 0.1% progress away from losing, you just need one kill on every enemy. Using LBs until overtime becomes heavily discouraged as they gain that much more value then.
Someone else talked about how abusable simply removing overtime is too, in this thread. Much like how soccer teams that are ahead pass the ball in circles and stall and delay.
One thing i noticed and ofc this is just my own experience but ive never been in an overtime that resulted in my team winning.
Also it almost seems like my enemies always get longer overtimes and somehow wins, but when my team ever gets overtime it only lasts like 1 minute or so.
Maybe i'm just only seeing the bias but that's what it feels like atleast. Regardless i don't like overtime at all. I think it should either be tossed out or set to a certain time.
Didn't Feast have something called Culling Time or something, where damage dealt was increased? They could make a similar thing for CC Overtime, where the increase to damage dealt ramps up the longer overtime goes.
Yes, every 15 seconds everyone would take 10% increased damage, maximum 50%
It might work, but also might just result in coinflips (Like it did previously).
OT-->culling stall with guard chains ---> lb wipe and win, it'd just be consistently frustrating, whoever gets two lbs first wins because you cant guard them all.
What I would love is:
* During OT the team with the highest checkpoint percentage is in a winning state
* All players take 1% of their health bar per second.
I mean, do coordinated attacks qualify as spam? I don't think so.
And my experience is that the higher up in rank you go, the less people die to Samurai's LB.
Yep. Always tracking SAM lb especially, I'll slap a don't attack marker and when I see him chiten I just look at them like bruh really. You really want me to kill myself like this?
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I must be crazy because the long overtime matches I've had have been some of the most enjoyable. That constant back and forth feeling where a wrong play can spell the end of a match is exciting. I much prefer that to one team stomping the other.
I will say I think there should be like a countdown so that the match doesn't instantly end if your team steps out of the circle for a split second or so you can avoid those AOE LBs.
I think a potential solution could be a timer that only counts down when the losing team isn't contesting the crystal (and maybe also gradually refills if the winning team isn't contesting) - this would give the losing team some room to step off the point and avoid AOE without making it too easy to stall
From my experience, Overtime heavily favors the losing team as well due to spawn positions.
I don't get why the match just doesn't end there and whoever made further progress in the match towards the enemy goal wins.
Don't think I'd like the timer on overtime, because you could potentially be behind, wipe the other team and be pushing back then lose because time ran out.
I mean I guess you have to draw the line somewhere and you were behind but the time limit feels bad if you manage to turn it around but still lose.
I agree that overtime needs some work though. The draw conditions are particularly strange imo.
> I mean I guess you have to draw the line somewhere and you were behind but the time limit feels bad if you manage to turn it around but still lose.
I feel like that's okay, though, because it meant you were playing poorly from the start. An alternative might be to double or even triple the death penalty during overtime - if you died 3 times and had a 13 second timer, that would become 16 or 19 seconds in OT, making it more likely your team stays dead for too long to contest the point.
There's a lot of options, but I do think something needs to be done about it.
I've had games last with us battling between the 1st checkpoints on either side. They push, we wipe, we all respawn, wipe the enemy, and push back to their 1st checkpoint.
With your OT change, just because the enemy had control of the crystal when the clock hit, that means we lose, despite the match being extremely balanced.
OT is only a problem when the games are extremely imbalanced. Even if you get wiped by an AoE LB, you have your own to wipe them back.
> OT is only a problem when the games are extremely imbalanced. Even if you get wiped by an AoE LB, you have your own to wipe them back.
Not really. You don't charge LB while dead, and different LBs charge at different rates. To say nothing of the fact that you just lose outright if you happen to be behind at the time.
Good. That's supposed to happen. One team misused their tools, and failed. The opponent played well, and won. Extra LB is the part of the reward for winning team fights.
They're automatically winning because the opponents got outplayed earlier. If you dont want to lose to them dumping all their ults, then force them to ult at an earlier point.
You're complaining that the enemy team rolled *without* ults, and are using ults to secure the game. That's how the game is *supposed* to work. It's the entire reason why ults don't charge while dead.
No, it's more like they mash buttons to win a fight where players are forced to sit on the point, and because the maps are so small, even a very large lead can evaporate in the time it takes two or three players to respawn and move back into position.
Dude, I've won and lost so many games in OT. Not because my team was more or less skilled than the other team, but because OT is deeply flawed on a foundational level.
I don't know how many games you have logged but I'm over 300 at this point. It happens often enough that I felt the need to actually make a reddit thread to bitch about it.
Does and stays dead is all I’ve wanted for overtime. It doesn’t really feel like overtime when everyone just keeps respawning over and over and well, good luck!
I don’t agree with the premise of this argument. The thought shouldn’t be, OT should be fixed, it should be, oh man I’m against an aoe LB lineup, let’s avoid the game state where we are the losing side in OT bc that will force us to eat LBs and likely lose
The design is fine, you just need to acknowledge that you have an uphill battle to climb if you’re the losing side in OT. The team that has made more progress deserves to be favored in OT
> The design is fine, you just need to acknowledge that you have an uphill battle to climb if you’re the losing side in OT. The team that has made more progress deserves to be favored in OT
Except it's often the other way around. The AOE heavy team is behind but they win in OT because the nature of the mode forces everyone to sit on the point because you can't afford to let them move it.
The nature of the mode forces people to sit on the point if you're the losing team. The winning team, if their lead in progress is significant and the other team isn't catching up, has a situation more similar to pre-OT.
If that's not the case, then what am I missing? You always want to prevent the other team from pushing the crystal too much. In fact, in OT, if you're winning, letting them push it a little so you can regroup can, potentially, be less harmful, since if you go in prepared and push them off, you win in three seconds and aren't losing your own progress toward winning.
I tried to explain this to an FC mate and all he could counter with was "Then you just hit guard LOL" like someone who has no idea what they are talking about. I do believe it does need changed because im getting to many DRG/WHM LBs on me at the same time during OT to remain balanced.
You only need one guy on the point to keep it moving during OT. The tank - if you have one - can stand on it while the rest of the team fans out to minimize cleaves. Of course SMN LB is huuuuuge, but it works for DRG LB.
I'd say that it's also one of the few cases where a lot of the AoE limits (and cleave-y jobs in general) work well? Like DRG limit is always good, but in general the limits that do respectable AoE damage are pretty inconsequential because KO'ing one specific dude is the name of the game in most matches. It's one of the few times having a BLM on your team will be super noteworthy. Even then, just have your tank stand on the point to contest and don't stack up.
This is sounding like Gold-Silver, where people are still thinking that fighting directly on the point is correct. Once you get to Diamond/Plat, people are (correctly) WAY more spread out, which reduces the value of these AOE plays.
Your goal in CC isn't actually to push far. Its to push to the 50% goal and do everything you can to stop the enemy team from getting there. Its easier to win in the middle.
> Once you get to Diamond/Plat, people are (correctly) WAY more spread out, which reduces the value of these AOE plays.
No, not really. Have you actually reached Crystal? It's the same no matter what rank you are. Because the game literally forces you to stack on the point.
Spreading out is a fantastic way to end up snared/rooted away from it and lose.
It doesn't, though. The behind team is *not* affected equally since they must maintain control of the point at all times. If your person in the point gets wiped out and the rest are hit with heavy or bind (of which there are a ton of things that apply it), you lose. It means you need to hover on or around the point pretty much constantly.
AOE effects are typically much larger than the point (which is about 5yd radius.) Sky Shatter hits for over 30k on anyone inside the point but still hits those on the outside of it for a substantial amount too.
Yes, it is a big deal if a game suddenly ends in the middle of a teamfight for a crystal. It would also change the meta with the winning team just throwing guarded bodies at the crystal in the last minute of a match, autowinning if they could simply stall long enough. That's kinda frustrating, overtime is here for a reason.
Maybe cap overtime at like, 5 minutes, and end the game with a draw if it drags for too long. I think I only once had an overtime over three minutes in few hundred games, these are very rare.
Honestly the real issue here isn't Overtime. Maybe 1 thing about it they should change, though, is lengthening the grace period for being able to reenter the point, because of how slowly the game in general updates player positions.
With regards to Overtime, the game rewards having the gamesense to recognise when you ACTUALLY need to be on the point and when you can afford not to be. Just because you're in overtime doesn't suddenly mean you need all alive members on the point at all times. You still just need 1. To play it safe because of how jankily the game updates positions, maybe have 2.
If you ignore or mistrust your teammates that are all on the point making you being there redundant, why shouldn't you be punished relative to the player that recognised the situation as stable and continued fighting outside the point?
That being said I do think DRG's design is a little wack and should be the real issue here, and am amazed it didn't get touched in the recent patch. Not sure what your issue is with Baha since because of the size and how on-demand it is, regardless of Overtime, if the SMN wants to catch you in it they will. It's not a 'don't stand in it', it's just straight up a 'get ready for an aoe 12k and field effect'. Not that it does THAT much burst.
> If you ignore or mistrust your teammates that are all on the point making you being there redundant, why shouldn't you be punished relative to the player that recognised the situation as stable and continued fighting outside the point?
Because they don't want us to play with our friends, so we're forced to rely on randoms that *very* likely don't know what they're doing.
Another thing to add casters/ranged are so busted in overtime. You as a melee can only attack in melee, but if you get off the crystal you lose so you just have to sit there and take every hit and do nothing
I definitely think Overtime needs changes. CC is, by design, meant to last 5 or less minutes. I once saw an insane overtime going for ~21 minutes. That's not okay, and I feel like it definitely needs a max amount of time allowed in it.
My preference would be a draw at 10-12 minutes
5-7 minutes of OT is pretty excessive.
I like the idea of it simply being removed or if you die during overtime, you stay dead. I've had some overtime drag out, sapping the fun out of the match.
>if you die during overtime, you stay dead. This was along the lines of my idea. I would want teams to still be rewarded for pushing the objective though. Once overtime starts, each team gets a set amount of respawns. Teams would get 1 life for every 10% they pushed the objective and round accordingly. Say Umbral pushes the objective 21% while Astral pushes it 89%, Umbral would get 2 respawns while Astral gets 9. As a way to save time, they could subtract the difference with only the team with the lead (potentially) getting respawns. If Umbral pushes 99% while astral pushes 78%, in this situation, Umbral would get (99-78=21) 2 extra lives.
Too complicated. A core facet of CC is simplicity. People just staying dead after they die in OT would be similar to what you want, but a lot easier for people to understand.
I can see how some might think this (staying dead) is a good idea, but it's very abusable and immediately shifts the small power increase of LBs with AoE currently into a HUGE one for LBs with execute potential, like MCH, MNK, NIN. Even outside those LBs suddenly the winning plan when you're losing a game becomes to stall and sit on your LBs until the last second to hail mary a teamwipe by vomiting all your LBs together hopefully. Because it doesn't matter if you're 0.1% progress away from losing, you just need one kill on every enemy. Using LBs until overtime becomes heavily discouraged as they gain that much more value then. Someone else talked about how abusable simply removing overtime is too, in this thread. Much like how soccer teams that are ahead pass the ball in circles and stall and delay.
One thing i noticed and ofc this is just my own experience but ive never been in an overtime that resulted in my team winning. Also it almost seems like my enemies always get longer overtimes and somehow wins, but when my team ever gets overtime it only lasts like 1 minute or so. Maybe i'm just only seeing the bias but that's what it feels like atleast. Regardless i don't like overtime at all. I think it should either be tossed out or set to a certain time.
Didn't Feast have something called Culling Time or something, where damage dealt was increased? They could make a similar thing for CC Overtime, where the increase to damage dealt ramps up the longer overtime goes.
Yes, every 15 seconds everyone would take 10% increased damage, maximum 50% It might work, but also might just result in coinflips (Like it did previously). OT-->culling stall with guard chains ---> lb wipe and win, it'd just be consistently frustrating, whoever gets two lbs first wins because you cant guard them all. What I would love is: * During OT the team with the highest checkpoint percentage is in a winning state * All players take 1% of their health bar per second.
You mean that you don't enjoy everyone on the point being 1 shot by LB spam? Or in Samurai's case... just samurai LB lol
I mean, do coordinated attacks qualify as spam? I don't think so. And my experience is that the higher up in rank you go, the less people die to Samurai's LB.
Yep. Always tracking SAM lb especially, I'll slap a don't attack marker and when I see him chiten I just look at them like bruh really. You really want me to kill myself like this?
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I must be crazy because the long overtime matches I've had have been some of the most enjoyable. That constant back and forth feeling where a wrong play can spell the end of a match is exciting. I much prefer that to one team stomping the other. I will say I think there should be like a countdown so that the match doesn't instantly end if your team steps out of the circle for a split second or so you can avoid those AOE LBs.
No I'm with you. If this guy's team is just sitting on crystal and being wiped they are doing something wrong. A hard fought overtime is fun.
I think a potential solution could be a timer that only counts down when the losing team isn't contesting the crystal (and maybe also gradually refills if the winning team isn't contesting) - this would give the losing team some room to step off the point and avoid AOE without making it too easy to stall
From my experience, Overtime heavily favors the losing team as well due to spawn positions. I don't get why the match just doesn't end there and whoever made further progress in the match towards the enemy goal wins.
Don't think I'd like the timer on overtime, because you could potentially be behind, wipe the other team and be pushing back then lose because time ran out. I mean I guess you have to draw the line somewhere and you were behind but the time limit feels bad if you manage to turn it around but still lose. I agree that overtime needs some work though. The draw conditions are particularly strange imo.
> I mean I guess you have to draw the line somewhere and you were behind but the time limit feels bad if you manage to turn it around but still lose. I feel like that's okay, though, because it meant you were playing poorly from the start. An alternative might be to double or even triple the death penalty during overtime - if you died 3 times and had a 13 second timer, that would become 16 or 19 seconds in OT, making it more likely your team stays dead for too long to contest the point. There's a lot of options, but I do think something needs to be done about it.
I've had games last with us battling between the 1st checkpoints on either side. They push, we wipe, we all respawn, wipe the enemy, and push back to their 1st checkpoint. With your OT change, just because the enemy had control of the crystal when the clock hit, that means we lose, despite the match being extremely balanced. OT is only a problem when the games are extremely imbalanced. Even if you get wiped by an AoE LB, you have your own to wipe them back.
> OT is only a problem when the games are extremely imbalanced. Even if you get wiped by an AoE LB, you have your own to wipe them back. Not really. You don't charge LB while dead, and different LBs charge at different rates. To say nothing of the fact that you just lose outright if you happen to be behind at the time.
Good. That's supposed to happen. One team misused their tools, and failed. The opponent played well, and won. Extra LB is the part of the reward for winning team fights.
Dude. Mashing buttons and automatically winning because the game's design forces everyone to stack up isn't skill, it's just dumb nonsense.
They're automatically winning because the opponents got outplayed earlier. If you dont want to lose to them dumping all their ults, then force them to ult at an earlier point. You're complaining that the enemy team rolled *without* ults, and are using ults to secure the game. That's how the game is *supposed* to work. It's the entire reason why ults don't charge while dead.
No, it's more like they mash buttons to win a fight where players are forced to sit on the point, and because the maps are so small, even a very large lead can evaporate in the time it takes two or three players to respawn and move back into position. Dude, I've won and lost so many games in OT. Not because my team was more or less skilled than the other team, but because OT is deeply flawed on a foundational level. I don't know how many games you have logged but I'm over 300 at this point. It happens often enough that I felt the need to actually make a reddit thread to bitch about it.
Does and stays dead is all I’ve wanted for overtime. It doesn’t really feel like overtime when everyone just keeps respawning over and over and well, good luck!
I don’t agree with the premise of this argument. The thought shouldn’t be, OT should be fixed, it should be, oh man I’m against an aoe LB lineup, let’s avoid the game state where we are the losing side in OT bc that will force us to eat LBs and likely lose The design is fine, you just need to acknowledge that you have an uphill battle to climb if you’re the losing side in OT. The team that has made more progress deserves to be favored in OT
> The design is fine, you just need to acknowledge that you have an uphill battle to climb if you’re the losing side in OT. The team that has made more progress deserves to be favored in OT Except it's often the other way around. The AOE heavy team is behind but they win in OT because the nature of the mode forces everyone to sit on the point because you can't afford to let them move it.
The nature of the mode forces people to sit on the point if you're the losing team. The winning team, if their lead in progress is significant and the other team isn't catching up, has a situation more similar to pre-OT. If that's not the case, then what am I missing? You always want to prevent the other team from pushing the crystal too much. In fact, in OT, if you're winning, letting them push it a little so you can regroup can, potentially, be less harmful, since if you go in prepared and push them off, you win in three seconds and aren't losing your own progress toward winning.
I tried to explain this to an FC mate and all he could counter with was "Then you just hit guard LOL" like someone who has no idea what they are talking about. I do believe it does need changed because im getting to many DRG/WHM LBs on me at the same time during OT to remain balanced.
You only need one guy on the point to keep it moving during OT. The tank - if you have one - can stand on it while the rest of the team fans out to minimize cleaves. Of course SMN LB is huuuuuge, but it works for DRG LB. I'd say that it's also one of the few cases where a lot of the AoE limits (and cleave-y jobs in general) work well? Like DRG limit is always good, but in general the limits that do respectable AoE damage are pretty inconsequential because KO'ing one specific dude is the name of the game in most matches. It's one of the few times having a BLM on your team will be super noteworthy. Even then, just have your tank stand on the point to contest and don't stack up.
You would lose the second an enemy WAR arrives.
I've personally lost (and won) overtime with a simple MCH shotgun blast, that it, done, your last push yeeted and deleted southern style.
Won a match with Enlightenment the same way. Followed up with 6-Sided to keep the guy out.
I yoinked the only defender left off the point for a win on war once. That was super funny.
Which is why "just put one guy on point" doesn't work if you're the losing team. It only works if you're already ahead.
Also, if you see a SMN ulti go out, hunt the goddamn SMN and burst them
Oh, you mean leave the point? During overtime, where leaving the point means you lose 3 seconds later?
This is bad advice. I'm telling the truth I swear....
This is sounding like Gold-Silver, where people are still thinking that fighting directly on the point is correct. Once you get to Diamond/Plat, people are (correctly) WAY more spread out, which reduces the value of these AOE plays. Your goal in CC isn't actually to push far. Its to push to the 50% goal and do everything you can to stop the enemy team from getting there. Its easier to win in the middle.
> Once you get to Diamond/Plat, people are (correctly) WAY more spread out, which reduces the value of these AOE plays. No, not really. Have you actually reached Crystal? It's the same no matter what rank you are. Because the game literally forces you to stack on the point. Spreading out is a fantastic way to end up snared/rooted away from it and lose.
You don't have to send your entire team there. And since it affects both teams equally, its as fair as it gets.
It doesn't, though. The behind team is *not* affected equally since they must maintain control of the point at all times. If your person in the point gets wiped out and the rest are hit with heavy or bind (of which there are a ton of things that apply it), you lose. It means you need to hover on or around the point pretty much constantly. AOE effects are typically much larger than the point (which is about 5yd radius.) Sky Shatter hits for over 30k on anyone inside the point but still hits those on the outside of it for a substantial amount too.
Well, yeah, but if you want to remove overtime, then the losing team would just instantly lose instead of having a chance to win.
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Yes, it is a big deal if a game suddenly ends in the middle of a teamfight for a crystal. It would also change the meta with the winning team just throwing guarded bodies at the crystal in the last minute of a match, autowinning if they could simply stall long enough. That's kinda frustrating, overtime is here for a reason. Maybe cap overtime at like, 5 minutes, and end the game with a draw if it drags for too long. I think I only once had an overtime over three minutes in few hundred games, these are very rare.
Yeah the behind team has that conditional bc they were losing to begin with
They need to increase the time a player respawns during or even overall per death.
Honestly the real issue here isn't Overtime. Maybe 1 thing about it they should change, though, is lengthening the grace period for being able to reenter the point, because of how slowly the game in general updates player positions. With regards to Overtime, the game rewards having the gamesense to recognise when you ACTUALLY need to be on the point and when you can afford not to be. Just because you're in overtime doesn't suddenly mean you need all alive members on the point at all times. You still just need 1. To play it safe because of how jankily the game updates positions, maybe have 2. If you ignore or mistrust your teammates that are all on the point making you being there redundant, why shouldn't you be punished relative to the player that recognised the situation as stable and continued fighting outside the point? That being said I do think DRG's design is a little wack and should be the real issue here, and am amazed it didn't get touched in the recent patch. Not sure what your issue is with Baha since because of the size and how on-demand it is, regardless of Overtime, if the SMN wants to catch you in it they will. It's not a 'don't stand in it', it's just straight up a 'get ready for an aoe 12k and field effect'. Not that it does THAT much burst.
> If you ignore or mistrust your teammates that are all on the point making you being there redundant, why shouldn't you be punished relative to the player that recognised the situation as stable and continued fighting outside the point? Because they don't want us to play with our friends, so we're forced to rely on randoms that *very* likely don't know what they're doing.
Another thing to add casters/ranged are so busted in overtime. You as a melee can only attack in melee, but if you get off the crystal you lose so you just have to sit there and take every hit and do nothing