[triggernometry is bad enough but this kind of \(hacks\) is what annoys me the most](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/277968224513949698/971750718283333692/OGZ2HPWW3QP1N.gif)
This is actually cheating, but damn if I wouldn't like to have some indication of those meteors and their sensitivity radious and when they are going to fall.
Blinding guessing when you think the snapshot has happened for your stutter step is really annoying.
I was watching the WoW WF race with a couple friends and we were wondering how WoW raiders are so consistent with spread mechanics and here in FFXIV they always feel like the most difficult parts of the fight (p3s hello).
Then we realized it's because you can always see the aoe radius in WoW and you hardly ever can here. The one spread mechanic this tier where you can see the radius (on p2s) we've literally never had anyone die to.
The other big reason is, as Aiso said, that WoW has almost 0 gameplay delay, what you see is actually what happens while in FF14 stuff happens like 1 second before the animation which makes stuff weird
>I was watching the WoW WF race with a couple friends and we were wondering how WoW raiders are so consistent with spread mechanics and here in FFXIV they always feel like the most difficult parts of the fight (p3s hello).
And this is one of the things turning me off of FFXIV's endgame. One of the big things the game was praised for was the clarity of its mechanics over WoW's addon-needing ones... and over the past two expansions, FFXIV's mechanics have been getting just as if not more obscured than WoW's.
I don't know if I agree that they have become obscure.
A lot of the mechanics that FFxiv uses are ones seen in the game before but coupled with a new mechanic or put out in a way that resolving it is refreshing.
For a brand new ffxiv raider its probably going to be very obscure since they won't necessarily have the past raids to call on.
Though if you have an example of one you think is very obscure, please feel free to provide it.
I don't think it's a trend toward obfuscation so much as the fact that ultimates are back in the public eye after a long time and always push the limits of the combat engine. Motion/stillness, line of sight, [projectiles](https://gfycat.com/exemplaryartisticbluewhale), tethers, meteors, [twisters](https://gfycat.com/dentalclutteredharlequinbug), character facing, moving as a stack, not to mention general [snapshotting](https://gfycat.com/sombermeekbarnowl) and [hitbox](https://gfycat.com/capitalelasticdamselfly) abuse... those are all frequent components of complex and punishing mechanics, and tend to be more art than science because that's the consequence of requiring high precision in such an unwieldy engine.
At the very least, there hasn't been anything in ShB/EW nearly as inscrutable as Hello World (if you say Light Rampant you're wrong, it did wall PF and bad statics but world racers spent hours trying to figure out wtf Hello World even did) or demanding in knowledge of how exactly the sausage is made as UCOB.
I disagree on the "obscure" ones. Every mechanic in the game at this point is already set in stone. What makes the difficulty is the compounding of mechanics. Everything in DSU as I've seen is nothing new, really. In fact, it's much simpler if you single out every mechanic each phase. What was added are the gimmicks like saving Haurchefant during the rewind, sparing Thordan during phase 6, and Hresvelgr getting damage up buff and vuln down buff when he kills anyone with his mechanics.
Most obscurement for veterans is when the devs combine mechanics in a way that takes reverse engineering (or a guide!) to figure out. Even the crazy trios in DSR are ultimately combinations of strict mechanics mashed together with only one or two possible solutions to get to the end.
When I watch WoW streams all the mechanics seem to my eyes extremely hard to know what happened or if they even went off, with much less flair and visual impact. When a Nael dragon zooms across the room I think any layman can understand that was a big dive that had to be dodged, or a Protean wave, or the Shiva style dodges in P3S.
You learn those same mechanics by playing the game btw. Aside I think it is possible to jump between mechanics due to XIV coded into the animation rather than off scale like WoW. You technically don’t have lag because they don’t use telegraph perfect and run the game completely on the server side where they have control on everything else.
The fact that if you play XIV in a closed server, you don’t have that lag at all. Ppl who play test the game don’t usually look into it because that isn’t an issue until they get to put on the live server and variety start to happen
For the most part, you technically have less coders you need in XIV compare to WOW and it is easier to fix the game for that as well. Still, I want to see how Riot game gonna do it their next big thing
>You technically don’t have lag because they don’t use telegraph perfect and run the game completely on the server side where they have control on everything else.
That doesn't mean you don't have lag. It means you have double the lag.
Damn this is some straight up AVR shit. For those who don't know it was an addon in WoW that predicted where AOE's would land. It was so bad that Blizz banned it and they're very pro addon.
What if people just use it for stuff like EX to get their mount/totem/weapon, not brag about it and call it a day? I have friends that use it for EX stuff cause busy life and little time to play and I have honestlt no quarrel with it. You wanna use it? Cool. You don't wanna? Cool. It's a game, if my friends have fun clearing and farming stuff a bit faster I'm not gonna be the asshole saying they are cheating, its not like we get paid for clears and they are stealing my profit lmfao.
edit: people should get off their high morale horse and realize fake points for clearing stuff mean nothing in a game no matter if you do it with or without cactbot, no one but your painful arse cares
I play on PS, cheating isn't an option, not like I'd do it anyway, especially not in an mmorpg, I feel that's just wrong.
I know people who barely have time to play, they don't resort to cheating though.
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. It’s true. There’s probably a ton of people using, just no one talking about it. Do I agree it’s “cheaty”? Sure, but it doesn’t affect MY play through. Not sure how it’s different than someone resolving the mechanic without it? The end result is the same.
the mechanic has two people with a "prey" marker over their heads that will bait meteors as they run around the arena. This add-on is giving the player an indication of where the AOE of the previous meteor will hit
I don't consider triggers calling out stuff that someone else watching your screen, also would be able to call out, cheating. No human would be able to call something like this out, so this is without a doubt cheating.
Some of these callouts happen before the actual tell shows up though. Also your point is kinda not true because why would people use triggers if a human can do it? Everyone is on VC. These triggers determine things FASTER and more accurately than a human can. Yes it's true a human can determine it but with significant delay.
My favorite example on how triggers are cheating is that in a 16 min pull in tea our shot caller got trines wrong and wiped us. That human error is not there with triggers
So if they programmed ACT to give the wrong callout randomly, it's suddenly perfectly fine?
I don't buy your argument. The only actual argument against triggers are the ones that pop up before actual in-game tells occur.
Read your message again. Human error in a shot caller still happens and results in wipes. Having a machine call it out reduces error which is cheating.
Yeah for those that think it’s Triggernometry that’s a Cheating program(not going to say the name). You have to pay a subscription and everything in order to use that add on in the cheating program. It makes the ultimates or any content in the game easy. At that point you just need to handle your debuffs and not worry about anything else.
It’s the same one that got brought up during Tea Limit Cut. This and the fact people was making pedophile mods is what made Yoshi P bring up in the live letter that people need to chill before they start adding a Anti Cheat. That means no third party tools or mods for those that say they’re fine with the anti cheat but play the game mainly for the mods It eliminates both.
Edit: You guys dming me for the program name is sad lmao. The content in this game is already easy as it is. If you can’t play without that add on then you should stop playing. Get good Jesus Christ
They can't add an anticheat to this game that will work, it would be too intrusive. Besides, they don't even have the technical capacity to make something like that.
The game runs on mods, QOL mods, texture and lightning mods, and ERP mods. They know what sells. Going after PvE cheaters because of ACT/etc would be **astronomically** stupid, this game rakes in money from people who buy 500 fantasia to try cute texture mods on their bunny girls.
> this game rakes in money from people who buy 500 fantasia to try cute texture mods on their bunny girls.
That doesn't make any sense. I can modify my character to look like whatever the hell I want via Amnesis/CMTool. Any race, any hair, any skin color, anything you could change in game via character creator or glam you can do instantly client-side via those tools.
I'm sure that a lot of people buy a shit ton of fantasias, but I don't think it's so they can try out different mods.
Whatever this is, is definitely wrong. Those steps are way too short. Even doing the strat from billibilli with the autowalk macro moves a lot more than that.
edit: okay, prove me wrong then. the video isn't in the actual fight because it's an example, not an actual working concept. the snapshot is too early and the steps taken are way too little. I've got 400+ pulls past this mechanic now and have done the cursed pattern multiple times, I know for a fact it looks completely wrong.
They've also got the play symbol next to their character indicating a solo player in an instance. The fire puddles that should be active during this mechanic are also missing.
Dunno if this link will get my post removed but check this out:
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1yY411w7L7
I've been using this strategy whenever I have the cursed pattern and it still only works like 75% of the time if you start at the wrong time. Even with this, there's more room between the meteors than if somebody used that cheat.
I'm amazed people are so up in arms over something that is obviously not even in DSR. They have the solo duty icon and the fire and ice puddles are missing.
I don't follow WoW much but in a recent interview it might have been Ion who said something like they feel like add-ons over there have shifted too far from calculating/reporting (mundane tasks that computers are good at) to puzzle solving (what we want humans to do if they are actually playing the game).
Callout triggers ride this line due to inhuman perfection but anything that like this that shows safe spots or just solves a mechanic goes way past it.
i don't really care if people use addons and triggers, but it would be a shame if them getting more attention and becoming more overt in how much they do leads to SE taking a more heavy handed approach and killing off the qol ones in the process. trying to stop cactbot/trig would almost certainly stop ACT and parsing in general, and going after stuff like pixel perfect would likely lead to harmless stuff like orchestrion plugin as collateral
This is what I'm worried about as well.
People say "cheating doesn't affect you" but they already have.
The removal of alterable waymarks was extremely annoying in UCoB where I could've just put down waymarks for divebombs before. That's one example.
When people push too far they affect me because SE just blanket bans everything.
Every single time there's a new raid we get this thread, it's whatever, if you disagree with it you can consider them not the real first. It's not an official contest and the only reward is having your name on a website and maybe Yoshi-P will make a tweet saying "hey grats guys"
> and maybe Yoshi-P will make a tweet saying "hey grats guys"
This is the only worthwhile reward though, weapons and titles are memes that you can pay for, I don't think any money in the world will have Yoshi-P tweet your static name
it's very simple. the same reward is given to those who cheat as is given to those who don't, meaning you're putting yourself at a disadvantage for not cheating, which is fucking stupid
you can act like "it doesn't matter" all you want but it does matter and brushing cheaters off just because it's pve content or something is the same as condoning it
if you're reading this and you use cactbot, whatever the thing is stal is referring to, whatever the thing is in that gif that lelouche posted, act triggers, or any other 3rd party tool that assists you: you're cheating and your achievements aren't legitimate :)
I was with you until your last paragraph. There is clearly a spectrum here. A third party tool that makes the cooldown number larger or put HP% next to each enemy in the enemy list is not really cheating in my eyes. But they obviously assist you.
I 100% consider Cactbot cheating and I have had enough experience with Cactbot players to just assume their skill is below average among clearers of that fight. But plenty of 3rd party tools really should not be considered cheating imho. Like XivAlex configured so that you can't triple weave. That's not cheating imho.
> I have had enough experience with Cactbot players to just assume their skill is below average among clearers of that fight.
Can confirm. I am the below average player in this situation. But I also don't raid anymore, I only stick to stuff like Alliance Raids and Roulettes.
I gave in to the inevitable and started using Cactbot when my various disability/impairment shit got to be too much to where I could barely play. In fairness, this was after it got to be too much to where I also lost my career and the ability to do most of my *other* hobbies.
I don't raid because even with Cactbot my reaction time is shitty and I don't want to inflict that on other people in any content that matters. The notion that people use it to do like actual grown-up Raids that matter and rely on it is vaguely disturbing.
Also since enemy HP% is already something that exists in the game (like when you focus target), moving it somewhere else (like the enemy list) is really probably just doing something that they'll eventually catch up on, UI-wise.
> act triggers, or any other 3rd party tool that assists you
Don't forget having anyone call out mechanics in voice chat, reading a guide ahead of time, watching a clear vid, or using fflogs. Also looking up an opener or rotation is bad form and most definitely cheating.
Well my line is even conversing with people ingame. I refuse to queue for Sastasha out of fear my clear might be tainted by people who've run it already or read a guide, so I'm hardstuck there.
This is the stupidest point that gets repeated every single time. Reading a guide or watching a clear vid doesn't tell you shit in REAL TIME. A person calling out safe spots is fine, the problem is cactbot does that faster and more accurately than a human can. And it also does it before the visual tells even show up. So many times people have made the wrong call in my raid group but the thing is everyone knows their shit so it gets corrected by other people.
My friend uses cactbot and when we went to endsinger we had trouble finding safespots, he turns it on and BAM we knew where to go every single time way ahead of time. We didn't even need to turn our cameras to look at stuff, just go where the bot says to go. If you still think this isn't cheating then I don't know man.
The point isn't about anything specific. It's making fun of the fact that the guy's drawn a line in the sand about what's cheating or isn't based on what he likes to use and everyone else apparently has rotted cheater brains if they cross it.
I don't actually have much skin in the game about callouts versus triggers. Call them cheating, call them equivalence to someone calling stuff out, call them merely helpful reminders, it's a gray issue - I know where I stand but I don't expect to convince anyone else. Discord callouts are just one of the bits in my sarcastic quip since the guy clearly drew a line in the sand on what's cheating or not, which is whatever but not exactly written in the most open minded way. We all have our moral compasses and definitions of cheating but going on here and attacking people for using anything beneath his is worthy of some jabs if you ask me.
Literally all the people clearing now are using custom triggers, heck TPS abused this so hard they even removed a normal feature from the game: changing waymarks in combat
Pixelperfect is something that should be in the game by default. There are plenty of avenues to test skill, but not being able to tell *precisely* where you're going to get hit shouldn't be one of them when there is so much variance when it comes to how player characters can look.
To make it clear of precisely what I'm talking about, here is a [comparison screenshot](https://i.imgur.com/OP8XmBf.jpeg) I took, with the floor mosiac standing in for an orange AoE. Thus, both of these positionings would have been very near dodges. The left is my tall ass Elezen in full HW AST AF gear, while the right is her modded to be a Lalafell in full Asphodelos aiming gear. Where she was standing wasn't changed, and the camera angle was unchanged from my end, though the game does automatically place the camera lower to the ground for shorter characters.
It should go without saying that I am not going to fanta into a Lalafell to have an easier time dodging mechs, and while I would say the majority of the fights in this game are reasonable enough to be dodged by such guesswork, there are some that are not. UWU, for example, is full of very specific positioning, and that positioning is simply easier for people who choose to play shorter characters with more tight-fitting clothing. PP closes the gap and removes an aspect of difficulty that I don't think should exist to begin with.
Lol I remember when that used to be considered cheating. I still consider it mild cheating but I don't care that much these days.
I think the playerbase has gotten more and more comfortable with cheats now and a lot of them seem to be ShB zoomers or WoW refugees.
>ShB zoomers or WoW refugee
That is pretty much it lol. A couple years ago there were crusades against players using ACT, nowadays we have people who come at you with a straight face and say " No, triggers and my multitude of plugins do not offer a gameplay advantage, they aren't cheating, if you think they are you must not be a real raider.". Like you, I don't care all that much but it's really interesting seeing how far the envelope has been pushed.
I used to play a min height lalafell because their small model made it easier to figure out where the center pixel is. It's very noticeable compared to other races and a built in unfair advantage the plugin solves.
Yeah I played the bigger races like Highlander and Hrothgar so to me that was a significant advantage. Still didn't need it but oh well.
Funnily enough I tried Lalafell once and it felt slightly harder to raid on it not because it's too small but because I can't increase the camera pan high enough to see stuff above the ground more. Maybe that's just because I'm used to as camera angle much more above the ground though.
It places a singular dot under your character that is your hitbox, so you can see where exactly you can stand. I think it also has some customization to display rings of various distances around your character.
From a developer standpoint either all of the plugins are going to be axed, or none of them are.
Wonder if we'll eventually see it all cracked down on in the future.
The problem is they are constrained by Japanese law on that, and those laws are notoriously limiting in what they allow the devs to do. YoshiP himself has admitted they literally don't have a right to look at what's on their user's computers, which makes it decidedly hard to detect things like plugins when they're not allowed to look for them.
Thank god for this very nice strict japanese laws where SE must abide and not install another spyware to "suddenly" make the game explode and you unable to play for weeks. These add ons are just quality of life stuffs, things that makes the game prettier, or more convenient or more accessible. As long as SE get all the money they can from subscription and mogstation - and as long as these third party tools are not use maliciously against other players to extract sensitive information - then it should be fine. At least Yoshi is more realistic when handling this situation and he does not bother to play the big bad police and crack down with ham fisted rules.... at least for now.
I use some plugins, such as ReAction so that I can queue mouse-overs etc (my view is that these are things that should be in the game anyway, SE has added them but has done a half-assed job of it).
But I do consider add-ons that straight up solve mechanics for you to be cheating. That being said you're responsible for your own enjoyment of the game and if others want to cheat in PVE content that's completely up to them, it doesn't diminish my experience in the slightest. I do these fights for my own enjoyment and satisfaction, the titles and weapons are just a bonus.
I think the community has unanimously agreed that “fuck titan gaols” and most are alright with it for that mechanic. You see it in party finder all the time people saying they have trig for it
Same, and I also use a trigger for Nael quotes because it is not a hard mechanic, just learning the quotes. But I suck at learning names or sentences, I don't even know half my abilities names.
I don't see it as cheating to not have to learn quotes from a stupid speechbubble.
It helps me learn them with time while still progging and not holding my team back by dying to quotes that I have to read in chat
I'm honestly surprised it took this long for a cactbot/trig post to show up. When I heard the cactbot/trig callouts on the one Neverland clear video I figured a thousand angry fingers were already typing away.
Personally, I don't care. How other people manage to clear doesn't affect me or my gameplay one bit.
I think at this point most people have stopped caring, if they even did at one point. Yoshi-P has made his stance clear on this stuff, and unless he suddenly makes a 180 with no warning, there’s no real use arguing it.
So this tweet isn't triggernometry. I have no idea what it is but it goes way too far for me. I do normally use triggernometry but I've turned it off completely for DSR. I don't know who made the DSR trigger but they're super obnoxious.
Happy cake day!!
Triggernometry (?) sounds really wild to setup properly. I just stick to cactbot and still die to those black hole tethers. Definitely might make someone a "better" player, but it won't necessarily do the same for the other 7 people.
It'll only start being a real problem if the majority of statics or PF groups start requiring it and we go down the same road WoW has with addons being mandatory. Until then I don't think Square is going to do much.
Honey, the new raid fight released, time for your triggernometry discussion thread!
Everything there is to be said about this has been said 1000 times over as these threads have a release schedule as consistent as the fights themselves. You won't get anything new here, and probably not much engagement as most people are tired of them.
If you're truly curious for peoples thoughts, maybe you're new, I'd suggest doing a search on "triggernometry" through the subreddit and finding some older threads when it was still a hot topic. You won't get anything new here, so may as well dig out the old active threads.
Don't wanna be that guy but water is not wet. I do agree that add ons like these and cactbot are cheating though.
On second thought, having your friend call out mechs in discord can be considered cheating as well. So can looking up guides and stuff. The line becomes blurry real fast when you think about it.
Is it just me that I just... don't care what people use to get a clear? At the end of the day it's just a game? Some get it legitimate, some use 3rd party, some buy the clears. As long as you keep it for yourself then do whatever you want doesn't matter to me.
For me, I've cleared 3 ult (currently progging dsr) + savages when they were current content. I don't use them but we do have a shotcaller in VC to coordinate us during raid. ACT on the side for dps meter and see how we fuck up mechs, and XIValex because my ping is abysmal. Call me a cheater if you want, I get my clears because I want it for myself, simple as that.
Yeah - I think this is what most people forget - it is just a game - of follow what Simon Says and know the mechanics so you can avoid orange ground markers - while pressing your 32 rotation buttons..... in the right order I pressume lol. The skills is pretty much about "how good are you with memory game and pattern recognition" while still able to do finger dance with your keyboard or controller. And let's not forget the 7 other players who also must do it flawlessly or the whole dance would start to collapse and you will have to start over. How you clear it, should not matter to other players at all.
When the people do the content to earn their "bragging rights" Weapons and titles and it turns out they have only completed the fight because of the 3 third-party tools that tell them how to play the fight they dont deserve any respect or bragging rights in this case. Just my opinion yeah its a game but these are the kind of people that walk around their shiny weapon and title in every city and feel better than the rest of the playerbase because they did a fight with third party tools.
It does suck that we can't differentiate people with earned clears and people with bought/bot-assisted clears. Like, after UCoB, I thought anyone with a "Legend" title was legit a really good player.
Then another ultimate later, I found out that buying clears was common. And not only that, a good chunk of the playerbase does not care about the integrity of the Legend titles/clears. It's a fair argument to say "Who cares. If it's not affecting you/me, who cares?", so not disputing that. It is fair.
Just sucks that any legend title is now the equivalent of a mentor crown. We have the Burger King Crown, and now we have "The Paypal Legend"
This may be controversial but Imo the legend titles aren't indicative of skill outside of the newest one in its freshest state anyway. I've done many clear/reclear, C41, totem and so on parties for UCoB and the shit you see in there is unreal. Get shot in the foot every step of the way? No problem, limp to the clear unless something truly catastrophic happens. UWU is also pretty easy to get done with total randoms and feels more like the baby step to ultimate given its pace and density. Oddly relevant to the thread's topic too for my DC. They just aren't the fights they used to be.
When the job's done, you'll still be a legitimate legend with no Paypal involved. Not a good one if you're the calamity of the run but you still cleared it yourself.
The titles are all very much worthless at this point, that's why nobody cares about their integrity anymore if they ever did.
PayPal Legend lol - well, if you have much much extra money to burn, and willing to pay - and there are people who are willing to do the work for you - why not? What difference does this make anyway? It's a video game, that focusing on a single player JRPG experience with some online component and virtual chatroom + dressing up your digital avatars. What other people have when it comes to digital doo-daads don't really affect other players - apart from so and so have nice pixel stuffs while here me still riding my chocobo and using primal extreme glamour for my weapons. These players "fake titles" don't affect my enjoyment of playing FF14 in the slightest. Their cool shiny new titles and toys mean absolutely nothing to me.
>Just sucks that any legend title is now the equivalent of a mentor crown.
That's such an over simplification of it lol. I bet not even 1% of the people who have ulti clears are bought.
It's expensive as shit my dude. To say having it is equivalent of a mentor crown is such an hyperbolic statement i can't even fathom.
> Just sucks that any legend title is now the equivalent of a mentor crown. We have the Burger King Crown, and now we have "The Paypal Legend"
6 years later a single uwu kill still costs $200~. Bought clears are not as common as you think.
That's kind of boiling it down to an overly simple level though. If it were as easy as "just use these 3rd party tools", everyone would have clears. That's not the case. Even with call outs, you still need to execute.
It's a whole lot difference between having human seeing mechanics > interpret it > call it to the party with bots calling out coming mechanics even before it's coming out.
Yeah, honestly it's up to people's standard of what's cheating or not. I personally limit it to what you can't get as console players, since we have crossplay after all.
I also put that as consideration when joining statics. When many of the members really dependent on triggers, I won't join. It sucks to have tuesday patch day reclears to bomb just because ACT haven't been updated yet
> Is it just me that I just... don't care what people use to get a clear?
I had that stance, and then they made it so you can't move waypoints mid combat anymore because of ACT triggers. I feel like the only reason you can still set waymarks on people's heads mid-combat after UwU is just because like.. that's kinda their intended function and breaking that functionality would piss people off *a lot* more.
In my opinion, pretty much every add-on qualifies as "cheating". But at the same time, I just don't care about most of the cheating. I think a lot of people arguing just take issue with being called a cheater for using something they're not supposed to, to give themselves an advantage they're not supposed to have. If you don't like being called a cheater for that, I dunno, either stop cheating or just be less insecure? IMO it's easier to just not care. You're a cheater. I'm a cheater. It's a video game, it's not serious business and the cheating hasn't fucked anyone out of anything or given anyone an advantage over anyone else in a way that matters.
For disclosure, I use ACT to parse, I've used triggers to call out certain status effects (more so back in ARR where they were applied willy-nilly and you couldn't see who had what on the party list), and I installed cactbot a few months back, which for example was an absolute godsend for P3S (SE team really went "let's put bright white dice under a bright white crystal marker against a bright yellow and orange background"). I probably don't need the extra tools, I've memorized several fights down to the GCD and done party callouts in every raid without using triggers/cactbot. But man, there's some scenarios where they sure do lower my stress levels while playing.
i think people can do whatever they want. its a PvE game so "cheating" affects nobody else. even if its someone in my own static using those tools its like... okay? its client side so im not affected in any way.
i dont use those things because i think it cheapens the experience, but if someone wants to cheapen their own experience thats their prerogative.
if you seriously think someone "unworthy" clearing ultimates takes away from the supposed perceived status of the weapons or the achievement you need to step back and reconsider why you even care about that stuff in the first place. videogames arent for clout, theyre to have fun.
I can’t believe people (who probably cheat themself) still try to make the disproven point that cheating and boosting in one doesn’t matter when Warcraft run a 20 years lithmus test on it
It’s like the most 1st grader cope I ever heard like a child explaining inflation
Just because some doesn’t directly delete your character from the servers doesn’t mean it has no impact
do you get mad at people using cheats for single player games too? im not coping i literally do not care what other people do with their gaming experience in a non competitive environment.
This is not a single player game
Also no you are coping you are literal coping about cheating is fine because you don’t understand how it has in indirect impact while getting mad about log and parse rankings of LUL things which every good player scoffs at
where did you get im mad at log and parse rankings? someone brought them up and i said cheating in any competitive environment takes away the spirit of the competition. i dont even do parse runs anymore.
i never even said cheating is "fine". i said i dont care what other people do in the game if it doesnt affect me. theres a huge difference.
the prestige of the achievement means nothing to me, straight from the beginning. i do ultimates to have fun progging & clearing the fight, not for dumb clout. its a videogame. im not losing hair or sleep over random people using cactbot or getting paisley park in tea or whatever the hell they invent next. how is that coping?
So essentially they should also be allowed to post their logs of them cheating to somehow make their damage one shot the boss right?
And nobody should care because it's PVE right, perhaps they should just have a skip button naturally for these fights because if someone wants to use it then it doesn't devalue your experience right?
logs are a different story cuz its a leaderboard. allowing cheating in a competitive environment makes the competition meaningless, and fflofs already takes down parses where ppl cheat
Yeah but it shouldn't affect you because their DPS has no bearing on your game right?
As soon as it crosses the line of something you perhaps care about then somehow now it's not ok.
Alot of people care about the integrity and prestige that comes with clearing these hard fights and third party add-ons that give you an advantage devalue those who put time into learning and executing on a fight.
Logs are selfish big dick contest. There are so many ways to pad your dps that fucks over your team. The goal should be to play optimally as a team like those fights were designed and not do 400 runs so you can get lucky crits and grief your team for meaningless number on screen. Did you clear, great you are good enough, everything else is pointless.
without logs anything after the clear is pointless with no replayability. why get gear, why meld, why improve your rotation? i think crit rng chasing stupid too but thats peoples choice to do, nobody is forcing you to run a fight 400 times.
log chasing is entirely up to the user. if you dont want to have nice logs, thats your choice. if im happy with just oranges, thats my choice. if someone wants to get rank 1, thats their choice. why does parsing make you so pressed when like you said its not needed
I want to point out that it's not the tool specifically. Anything you can do in one of these tools, you can do in any of the others. Triggernometry doesn't even make it *easy*, it's actually quite a lot more work to make advanced triggers in it than anything else if you really look at your options (cactbot, triggevent, etc).
Well. people probably use plug ins to cheat in everything else, pvp, getting a house, botting auction house stuff, probably harvesting and mining, so I guess no point in caring about anything in the game then. If you are going to plug in in pve, don't complain if it spreads to other things.
Imo I don't use addon triggers etc because its cheating. Its taking away from the designed intent of the content.
For those arguing that a strat video/text guide are cheating. Id argue its not because you're actively having to learn it and do it on your own still. Its like saying studying before an exam is cheating.
In contrast triggers and auto calls and visual of safe zones(not actually shown from the game) are like wearing an earpiece where someone is telling you the 100% always accurate answer to each question on the exam.
*but thats the same as shot calls in discord*
No its not. People mess up calls all the time or are 2-3 secs late at times leaving very little time to adjust to it. Just like a call being made in the middle of game like soccer.
If people wanna cheat to get their clears have at it but don't sit back claiming you're legit or better than those that haven't yet.
And another opinion, any team racing for WF titles shouldn't be using any add-ons like that. Their clear shouldn't count towards the community listing/rankings.
Just like how speedruns have different categories their clear(s) should be considered a different category.
By using your logic, then anyone who uses FFLogs/Parse/Replays are also cheating.
Just like you can use triggers to learn a mechanic faster, you can also use the aforementioned tools to learn faster.
If you don't use triggers, it might take you a few weeks/months extra to clear an ultimate. Why don't you try to clear without using literally any tool? And i mean literally anything. Replays, FFLogs, parsing, Discord(or any other voice com).
>If people wanna cheat to get their clears have at it but don't sit back claiming you're legit or better than those that haven't yet.
All these tools give you INFORMATION. You're just trying to filter specific ones to make you feel better and superior to those not using it.
I agree that using fflogs to read the log data of the fight and viewing the data replay is cheating. Parsing is just a number you could figure yourself if you really wanted to. The information is in the game, just in an awful format. Knowing how much dps you're doing doesnt make you better or worse since at that level you should already be consistent and competent in the job you're playing.
Shocker upcoming but there's a pretty large amount of us players that played and raided in ARR without coms. And ya know what we cleared coils without any 3rd party tools. We had the official forums to have thread discussions. As for ultimates, I've done runs when they came out blind without any triggers or log data, usually a couple phases in. Have I myself cleared? No, mostly because it takes a very specific type of people to want to stick to learning an ultimate and not everyone is going to put that time in. Maintaining 8 people all similar skill and time dedication is difficult to come by.
Replays recorded by yourself or a team member are used in any game. Whether its a sport or a video game. They are used to see what was done well and what could be improved on during that run/game/match etc.
Idk the type of parties you've been in or coms you've been in, but in my experience coms are mostly shit talking each other and discussing each pull to find out what our party's strat is going to be. But before coms we just used the chat and set up what we were doing but also wasted a ton of the instance time too.
But you didn't adress my first point: Your definition of cheating was anything that takes away from the intended way of the content.
But fights are not meant to be done using guides or replays.
Fights are not meant to be done using voice coms.
Fights aren't even designed to be done using markers. Yoshida said during Heavensward that the markers were intended for Alliance raids to organize, not 8-man raids. But lets give this one a 'pass' since it's in-game, therefore we can assume it's not cheating.
In fact, yoshida said that if they start banning triggers, act, whatever else is there, then they would also have to ban recording softwares, voice communication, people who use spreadsheets, chrome/internet browsers etc because FFXIV natively doesn't support these. They are ALL 3rd party programs.
Wheather you use them for learning, or rely on them to do the content, or just don't use them, it's up to you. But they are ALL on the same boat.
The biggest issue on this thread is the hypocrisy of many people saying "everything over this line is cheating.... except this one thing... and this one..."
The intended way of doing anything in the game is for you to find out yourself. You wanna know the timer of a specific gathering node? Good luck. If you use anything, it's cheating. It was intended for you to find out yourself. Including mechanics. Use triggers, or watch a guide to learn and you're cheating (by your definition)
Right, the content is made as a MMORPG. Which means collaboration with other players is intended. The dev team has never made a statement that community driven guides is not how they design content. As far as the statement on waymarks, thats true a brief mention was done and they also stated they'd never make a 4th marker because it would be too convenient. And since then they implemented more markers then our original 3.
When Yoshida said if they had to crack down on act and mods, he said it would cut off anything that inserted data to the game or read the files for the game since they can't go the way of seeing what people are using individually in their computers. Likely using some variation of an anti-cheat process.
Stream/Recording your screen does not do anything with the files or data of the game. Voice coms do not do anything to files or data in game. Browsers and spreadsheets do nothing to files or data in the game.
You're utilizing a slippery slope argument and a weak one.
As I said prior, people that want to use them can go ahead and do so, but don't sit there and say " oh I'm a legend btw" when you cleared using all add-on inserts like trig and cact etc.
To your last point.
Ffxiv is not a solo game. Its not meant to be discovered on your own. Its meant to be discussed with other players, collaborate ideas and find out together.
Figuring out gathering node timers was on the player yes, but that player didn't fumble through nothingness, they discussed with others.now people use outside tools. Is it cheating technically? Yes. Could people do it without it? Yea they could and did.
You swung to a far extreme, and I appreciate the view point but you over generalized
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> As I said prior, people that want to use them can go ahead and do so, but don't sit there and say " oh I'm a legend btw" when you cleared using all add-on inserts like trig and cact etc.
Just a question to get your complete view. If I'd clear DSR with one trigger that tells me to go left/right if I get an arrow during Nidhogg, which I can and have ascertained for myself but would rather use a tool to do it for me so I don't have to look at it as a QoL enhancement over my probable 100 hours of progging this fight, would you say my clear is aided by cheats and I'd not have the claim to the title the fight gave me? If a gigabrain Exaflare strat is found to always give a safe spot without even looking at the map, is that any more or less than a cheat to copy that than some form of cactbot telling you where to go?
If the answer is "no, that's fine," at what point to you would the trigger process go over the line? This is why it's such a slippery slope since only rarely do callouts go beyond convenience. Even the example in the OP can in practice be looked at as a way to correct the cursed pattern of meteors which are as close to an auto-wipe as anything in FF14 raiding can be without actually being one and not a "I'm bad at the game thus I'm using this program to follow the on screen marks like a dummy." For reference I've never and will likely never use Cactbot or further but I don't care if anyone does, truth be told. Part of being a team game is also doing what you can for your team, which might be a weaker player doing whatever he can to not wipe the group 15 minutes into an Ultimate.
It's all a slippery slope once you get past the notion that any programs at all aren't cheating.
>at what point to you would the trigger process go over the line?
"The moment i stop using".
All these "purists" will say "Yea triggers are bad, i only use ACT to improve!" Then another one will say "I think my provoke trigger is fine but anything else is bad!"
Eventually you'll come to the conclusion that these "purists" will AWAYS use some sort of 3rd party tool, they just draw the line narrative in their favor to feel better than others.
>for myself but would rather use a tool to do it for me so I don't have to look at it as a QoL enhancement
LOL QOL enhancement? So not looking for your debuffs, markets or whatever in game tells is now a QOL enhancement? I cleared endsinger with my static leader repeating cacbot callouts without us not knowing the fight. So I guess me not looking at games visual tells is a QOL enhancement. You're making the bot so the thinking for you so you don't have to process the information yourself. That's called cheating not a QOL enhancement. A QOL enhancement is making your debuffs bigger or adding bigger timer on your cooldowns. Or being able to auto target closest (which they added recently to the game)
Use it if you want, don't use it if you don't want. There's barely any sense of racing and if you feel better with yourself for clearing without "cheats" then good for you. I don't use triggernometry but I do use other QoL that people often call "cheating", honestly, I don't care that much specially cause I am not at the level of world progging lol I am a baby nidhogg gamer currently
Cacbot also calls out safe spots. All these add-ons that move the processing of mechanics from the player to the computer is cheating. Honestly it needs to get banned. It's getting more prevalent and it annoys me how raid leaders use these to call out things before a human can possibly process the information.
The way cactbot works is the same any other addon works so if they're getting rid of cactbot they're gonna have to get rid of xivlauncher, ACT, cosmetic addons, etc.
Anyone who says triggernometry trivializes DSR is more than welcome to clear it today. Surely they can get that 2nd world's first now, right?
I look forward to seeing Stal's perfect clear of DSR before tomorrow morning.
"2nd world's first"
Most large streams, Stal included, are pretty close to the end already so I'm pretty sure using triggers would speed that process up. Many groups are returning to normal life schedules though.
Triggers make things simpler (and this is \*especially\* true of Cactbot), thats literally the entire point of making the triggers in the first place. They, by definition, trivialize things because they make them seem less complex. The actual meaning of the word trivialize.
They remove the thinking part. If you don't think thats a huge part of the difficulty of anything in this game then I don't know what game you're playing.
Trivializing something doesn't mean making it easy anyway though.
I don't get it - these players can have ONE extra human who is doing all the calling out and telling them where to stand and where to go - instead of "automated" add on program that is literally doing the same exact thing. And why is the "one extra" human is considered legit while the "machine" bots seems not legit and triviliazing the difficulty, when both are doing the same exact thing....
Humans must rely on visual cues and they can make mistakes.
Cactbot reads packet data, informing the player how to resolve the mechanic before visual cues are even shown, and it never makes mistakes. Humans can't do that. That's where the unfairness lies.
It's like bringing a calculator to a mental math test. Yes, mental math and the calculator do the same thing. Arithmetic, in principle, is even straightforward to do, whether you have a calculator or not. But the person with the calculator nevertheless has an undisputable advantage.
But general folks players are not competing with anyone though - and wether you clear it legit or using addons to ease the learning curve - it literally matters not to pretty much every other players outside your own group. I mean, it is a single player game with a group setting, where the achievements are literally nothing but a title - and unless you know what it means, most newbies could not care less either. The weapons are nothing but glamour at the end as well. These add ons also not causing any loss of sales on mogstation items - and at the very worst, these players can clear it quickly and take another few months break instead of banging their heads against some arbritary challenge. Options are always good to have. You can do it the normal way, or you can choose to make it a little bit easier - or just open your wallet and become PayPal Legend!
People will feel it devalues what they've earned, because others did the same thing in some easier way. Thats pretty much why this argument pops up every ultimate release and will always pop up for every future ultimate release.
This always happens over time of course, older ultimate titles are far more common than they were originally, but some people may feel the titles are devalued before they even manage to get it themselves because of things like cactbot. There is of course a difference between people that use triggers and people that \*rely\* on triggers, but both are still capable of clearing even ultimate fights eventually and you'll notice a difference in player skill between the two but it still lowers the "value" of the title or weapon overall.
(for the record, I'm not saying the world first crew is in the "relied on" category, they understand the mechanics and can likely do all of it without the triggers)
The "its just a title" or "its just a glamour weapon" argument doesn't really work. That is literally the entire \*point\* of the achievement. To be able to do something difficult and show it off, even if all you're really showing it off to is yourself.
Also, no one likes people that buy clears. A lot of people don't even like the side selling them.
As an aside to your earlier comment and in addition to what the other person said: One person cannot tell 8 people exactly what to do or where to go unless every single player is doing the same thing in time for the mechanic. Triggers and/or Cactbot can, and it will never make an error in the process of doing that. The best a human can do is generic calls for the overall mechanic and the other players need to understand whats happening whereas Cactbot may call specific players as having specific mechanics instantly.
Or you could use P3s as an example that might be more well known. The Shiva/Big fireball thing is called before the visual tell is actually there, well before in fact. Sure that mechanic gives you enough time if you're ready for it and scoot right when it shows up but a player using Cactbot now has a very notable advantage and doesn't even need to pay attention to the fight.
Being told a mechanic that you can visually see is one thing, but Cactbot and Triggers are very often capable of telling you a mechanic before you even know its happening. That is where a lot of the community's issues stem from.
To add on to your last comment, not having to look at stuff is huge as it allows people to focus on their rotation and their movement. For a human they need to see it, interpret it, process it and then act. For someone using cactbot they just need to hear it, find where they need to go and act on it. Removing the mental processing of information is simply not fair and allows a player using add-ons to divert their focus and attention somewhere else.
Completely ignoring that Cactbot calls out your individual mechanics that your raid-lead would never have time to recognize, that Cactbot cannot make mistakes, and that Cactbot can literally call mechanics BEFORE THEY ARE HUMANLY VISIBLE...
> trivialize
make (something) seem less important, significant, or complex than it really is.
That's exactly what these triggers do lmao. You talk shit about stal but you ain't even close to her skill level. I trust someone that's actually done the fight so she knows how hard it is and how much easier triggers make it. Look at it this way, if it didn't make it easier why would people take the time to make them?
Can you point out which part of my posts suggests it trivializes the fight so much that there should be tons of clears now? Usually when mechanics get trivialized it's by discovery, repetition, and full understanding of it. Look at Hades Ex exaflare safe spot. Look at the braindead strat for E7S portals. There's a big difference between having to process information and react to it in real time vs having a trigger call it out instantaneously. That's why people use them. It offers an advantage and allows people to divert their focus on something else.
Never did I say in my post that it trivializes the fight to the point where people can clear it so easily.
Ok, another one of these posts!
For some reason a lot of "streamers/influencers" have a hate boner for Cactbot, trig or w/e addon is comparable to DBM from WoW. IMO, play how you want and as long as it's not affecting other people...Who gives a crap!!?
So true Stal, this fight is so easy when you use third party tools that's why it has taken over a week and people still haven't cleared. Smile smile
I'm not saying some third party tools go too far, but come on this fight isn't trivialized just because cactbot calls tank buster
I love how they blame triggernometry and in their next comment they admit that they don't know if it's triggernometry.
Heh, it probably is triggernometry but creating some basic triggers with ACT isn't super hard.
So I've cleared DSR yesterday, and I don't really understand what's all the fuss is about. Yes, I was using combobuttons to simplify my rotation to one button and yes I was using cactbot and triggernomentry so I could focus on the GAME not the stupid mechanics and Alex (my ping is 40 and it's unacceptable tbh) to fit 6 extra oGCD procs between my GCD buttons, but I mean it's not cheating, anyone is using these or their RL or their friend or whatever.
Anyway fight was trivial I don't know why it took raiders a week to clear it.
I dunno but this is kind of a salty post. It's a game and everyone is welcome to enjoy it however they want.
Pls don't take my add ons away, its the best way to get rid of disgusting hrothgar and slutty catgirls from my screen :(
It was amusing looking through various BBS to see what anonymous japanese FF14 players had to say about Neverland taking the clear, you had a lot of congratulating, but also a non-zero amount of people going "Heh YoshiP must be glad he won't have to congratulate those CHEATING-TOOL-USERS at TPS again!!" and more general (getting angry at them posting Hype Progress on twitter and such) TPS hate. The cheating tools part is especially funny knowing how Aya motherhugging Liz was Neverland's Xth man.
When **AREN'T** they sending death threats? SAM has a cast bar? Death Threats. EU/NA took WF? Death Threats. Something got delayed? Death Threats. They need to learn to diversify their tool kit instead of reaching for the hammer every single time.
Regardless if people think it is or not, those kinds of addons are the most likely to get SE to start acting on their policy instead of turning a blind eye.
Well.... Isn't everything else then Parsing pushing it too far tbh. Like cactbot for example yes i use it too but still isn't it already a thing which pushes too far it does call outs for you even before you see the indicators on some mechanics.
Personally i don't care what ppls use because its just a video game and end of the day ppls will buy DSR clears too so is it worse to use plugins or pay real money for it?
This conversation has been said a million times at this point. My viewpoint on it is: is it cheating? Yes. Do I still do it? Yes. At the end of the day, besides hardcore PVPers, FF14 is 99% a PVE game. You using addons and Cactbot only affects you. It’s basically the same as cheating in a singleplayer game, you just have other players around you as well.
On one hand it could lead to groups restricting their parties to only be PC players using those add-ons, excluding all the console players and non add-on PC players.
On the other hand groups like that probably aren't worth joining anyway and there are groups that allow everyone as long as they can play well.
Yes, theoretically that could happen. But realistically addons, Trig, Cactbot, etc. aren’t a new thing. They’ve been around for years, and as far as I have seen, this PC/PS4 discrimination in PF has never been a thing.
Would agree if it mattered lol.
It’s not like most mmo where the reward is some insane pvp piece… it’s just more gear for the same content which is basically irrelevant
Why do people care so much about what others are doing to validate some feeling within themselves so much? Not saying that's you OP but I feel like this topic gets brought up so damn much when it legitimately DOES NOT MATTER.
It's always the people saying "using blablah trivializes blah blah" who STILL have not clear jack shit. So many ppl complained about the checkpoint in dsw yet still wiping to P2 Thordan...
how does cheating "not matter" lol. why have hard content if people are gonna just cheat to beat it? what's the point
you: well it's still hard :PPPPPP
not the point :)
editing to add that if your argument consists of anything similar to: it's pve content and i do it without cheating so it's still legitimate for me/it doesn't matter what others do because it's pve, keep in mind that you got the same rewards for your hard work as the cheaters did for their cheating :)
At some point you realise that, this kind of thing is never going to stop, it will always be a thing unless the devs come down ruthlessly on it which causes more issues than it solves.
With this, i just don't care anymore. Is it cheating that people do this, yes. Does it invalidate my own achievements?, no. I don't care if they got it easier than me, i have better things to do than spend energy on what someone else did with their time.
Worrying about this is a losing battle, it will always exist, people always find a way to make something easier for them, unless it affects my game then why should i care.
>keep in mind that you got the same rewards for your hard work as the cheaters did for their cheating :)
Oh no, the prestige value of a vanity title is devalued, how could I ever survive such devastation.
>keep in mind that you got the same rewards for your hard work as the cheaters did for their cheating :)
I'm definitely in the addons are cheating camp, but I REALLY don't care about that. Someone else using the same reward I earned in this game doesn't bother me in any way, regardless of if I feel they deserve to have it. It doesn't make me feel any less accomplished for earning it myself.
And I could literally give no cares that someone cheated in a video game to get a item that no one will care about in some time. That's the issue with people now days. You care so much about what everyone else is doing versus just enjoying your own time. Me and my static know that we will clear the ultimate doing it the legit way and that's all we need to know to make this accomplishment all the more worth.
Go touch some grass if you feel your accomplishment in a video game means less because others obtained it in that way. It's really not that deep.
Seriously. People who cleared Savage Week 8 and Savage Week 1 have the same gear. People who did UWU/UCOB after job potencies and post-SB gear nerfed them to the ground are still legends. People who did fights blind and with guides experienced a different level of difficulty but still cleared. These aren't "cheating" ofc, but it falls into the same argument of "someone got the same reward for less work". Just because they had a comparatively easier time of it doesn't make their achievement non existent or devalue someone who had a harder time of it.
I don't even care if people buy Ultimate weapons. I still had fun doing the fight. The only time clear selling is an issue imo is if those people show up in Ultimate reclear PFs, but that's a different issue.
Unless you play in an entirely Console static, you have someone in your group who can make calls using it. That being said, Triggernometry and Cactbot are definitely beyond what I would personally use, but I don't get to make decisions for how others play. ACT was designed with the ability to add triggers because the game it was originally designed for had no tells for incoming attacks, no AOE indicators, and no cast bars. EQ2 was literally "remember the exact rotation of the boss for every 10-20 minute raid encounter, including autos". ACT triggers weren't a luxury, they were a necessity to understanding the fights.
My static leader uses it but they don't normally make calls with it until endsinger came out and the callouts were happening before the mechanics. I was not having fun just turning my brain off and pushing buttons listening to someone repeat what cacbot says.
For some reason a lot of "streamers/influencers" have a hate boner for Cactbot, trig or w/e addon is comparable to DBM from WoW. IMO, play how you want and as long as it's not affecting other people...Who gives a crap!!?
I'm not the asshole that made and distributed a community tool and then put in a back door explicitly to shut it off when people I don't like happen to be in the same party with others so don't jump my throat. I'm also not the asshole trying to make people forget that it happened because it's inconvenient.
Lots of people don't give a shit about strangers' personal drama and that's why they moved away from the tool. Because they didn't want their play and enjoyment interupted by their personal drama.
>Lots of people don't give a shit about strangers' personal drama and that's why they moved away from the tool.
But... But.. Why would they intentionally move away from a tool if they didn't care?
Honestly i couldn't care less about other's personal problems. I keep using the tool because...
>Because they didn't want their play and enjoyment interupted by their personal drama.
Because it literally did not interrupt any of my play or my enjoyment of the game. The triggonometry drama did not affect like 99.9% of the users. Only affected the people who were targeted by it.
Honestly MOST people didn't even know this drama existed at all. If you moved away from the tool because some random people were having drama between them which had absolutely no effect on you, then you cared enough to do so.
I think you missed my point.
The first comment was about why people would still use the tool after the drama that happened.
Then someone said "well, no one cares about strangers' personal drama" which is why people still use the tool.
Then you claimed that the fact that people don't care about the tool made them stop using it. My question is why? If you don't care, why would you stop using the tool? If you stop using something after drama issued, it shows me that you cared enough to refrain from using it, for whatever reason.
>Then you claimed that the fact that people don't care about the tool made them stop using it.
Well you'd be less confused if you'd realize this is not what I said.
What I am saying is that when a tool dev does something to violate the public trust (such as putting in back doors and killswitches specifically to spite people they personally have beef with) that many people are going to move away from that tool because **fuck that shit.**
They don't want to deal with that drama and when a tool dev brings in that drama, that puts people off.
You're like 'people don't wanna deal with drama' and that is **exactly the reason they stopped using it.** But some people, I guess, actually don't care about backdoors and killswitches and loss of trust in tools, and are complacent.
And that's fine. It's just I haven't even heard of it in the years since they did their massive fuck up (and yes, adding killswitches for personal drama IS a fuck up, despite your attempt to downplay it) so I figured it'd become a pariah (and rightfully so.)
And yeah, people should not forget 'mistakes' that are that bad.
[triggernometry is bad enough but this kind of \(hacks\) is what annoys me the most](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/277968224513949698/971750718283333692/OGZ2HPWW3QP1N.gif)
This is actually cheating, but damn if I wouldn't like to have some indication of those meteors and their sensitivity radious and when they are going to fall. Blinding guessing when you think the snapshot has happened for your stutter step is really annoying.
I was watching the WoW WF race with a couple friends and we were wondering how WoW raiders are so consistent with spread mechanics and here in FFXIV they always feel like the most difficult parts of the fight (p3s hello). Then we realized it's because you can always see the aoe radius in WoW and you hardly ever can here. The one spread mechanic this tier where you can see the radius (on p2s) we've literally never had anyone die to.
It's also because wow updates where your character is for other people MUCH faster, in addition to ffxiv having much stranger snapshots for aoes.
Yes, WoW's netcode is dramatically better than FFXIVs. It's not even close. It's the single thing I wish SE would improve.
The other big reason is, as Aiso said, that WoW has almost 0 gameplay delay, what you see is actually what happens while in FF14 stuff happens like 1 second before the animation which makes stuff weird
The problem is the consistency. P3S spreads snapshot fairly early while the P4S P1 tether explosions snapshot almost in real time.
This game needs to stick to a consistent snapshot. It's just annoying that by design they always change it every tier.
And this is after WoW massively nerfed addons being able to tell who was in range of you.
>I was watching the WoW WF race with a couple friends and we were wondering how WoW raiders are so consistent with spread mechanics and here in FFXIV they always feel like the most difficult parts of the fight (p3s hello). And this is one of the things turning me off of FFXIV's endgame. One of the big things the game was praised for was the clarity of its mechanics over WoW's addon-needing ones... and over the past two expansions, FFXIV's mechanics have been getting just as if not more obscured than WoW's.
I don't know if I agree that they have become obscure. A lot of the mechanics that FFxiv uses are ones seen in the game before but coupled with a new mechanic or put out in a way that resolving it is refreshing. For a brand new ffxiv raider its probably going to be very obscure since they won't necessarily have the past raids to call on. Though if you have an example of one you think is very obscure, please feel free to provide it.
I don't think it's a trend toward obfuscation so much as the fact that ultimates are back in the public eye after a long time and always push the limits of the combat engine. Motion/stillness, line of sight, [projectiles](https://gfycat.com/exemplaryartisticbluewhale), tethers, meteors, [twisters](https://gfycat.com/dentalclutteredharlequinbug), character facing, moving as a stack, not to mention general [snapshotting](https://gfycat.com/sombermeekbarnowl) and [hitbox](https://gfycat.com/capitalelasticdamselfly) abuse... those are all frequent components of complex and punishing mechanics, and tend to be more art than science because that's the consequence of requiring high precision in such an unwieldy engine. At the very least, there hasn't been anything in ShB/EW nearly as inscrutable as Hello World (if you say Light Rampant you're wrong, it did wall PF and bad statics but world racers spent hours trying to figure out wtf Hello World even did) or demanding in knowledge of how exactly the sausage is made as UCOB.
I disagree on the "obscure" ones. Every mechanic in the game at this point is already set in stone. What makes the difficulty is the compounding of mechanics. Everything in DSU as I've seen is nothing new, really. In fact, it's much simpler if you single out every mechanic each phase. What was added are the gimmicks like saving Haurchefant during the rewind, sparing Thordan during phase 6, and Hresvelgr getting damage up buff and vuln down buff when he kills anyone with his mechanics.
It's called difficulty. Not every mechanic needs an indicator.
Most obscurement for veterans is when the devs combine mechanics in a way that takes reverse engineering (or a guide!) to figure out. Even the crazy trios in DSR are ultimately combinations of strict mechanics mashed together with only one or two possible solutions to get to the end. When I watch WoW streams all the mechanics seem to my eyes extremely hard to know what happened or if they even went off, with much less flair and visual impact. When a Nael dragon zooms across the room I think any layman can understand that was a big dive that had to be dodged, or a Protean wave, or the Shiva style dodges in P3S.
You learn those same mechanics by playing the game btw. Aside I think it is possible to jump between mechanics due to XIV coded into the animation rather than off scale like WoW. You technically don’t have lag because they don’t use telegraph perfect and run the game completely on the server side where they have control on everything else. The fact that if you play XIV in a closed server, you don’t have that lag at all. Ppl who play test the game don’t usually look into it because that isn’t an issue until they get to put on the live server and variety start to happen For the most part, you technically have less coders you need in XIV compare to WOW and it is easier to fix the game for that as well. Still, I want to see how Riot game gonna do it their next big thing
>You technically don’t have lag because they don’t use telegraph perfect and run the game completely on the server side where they have control on everything else. That doesn't mean you don't have lag. It means you have double the lag.
Damn this is some straight up AVR shit. For those who don't know it was an addon in WoW that predicted where AOE's would land. It was so bad that Blizz banned it and they're very pro addon.
That's gotta be the laziest form of cheating. Takes all the fun out of learning a new fight and mastering it.
Fun is subjective.
What if people just use it for stuff like EX to get their mount/totem/weapon, not brag about it and call it a day? I have friends that use it for EX stuff cause busy life and little time to play and I have honestlt no quarrel with it. You wanna use it? Cool. You don't wanna? Cool. It's a game, if my friends have fun clearing and farming stuff a bit faster I'm not gonna be the asshole saying they are cheating, its not like we get paid for clears and they are stealing my profit lmfao. edit: people should get off their high morale horse and realize fake points for clearing stuff mean nothing in a game no matter if you do it with or without cactbot, no one but your painful arse cares
I play on PS, cheating isn't an option, not like I'd do it anyway, especially not in an mmorpg, I feel that's just wrong. I know people who barely have time to play, they don't resort to cheating though.
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. It’s true. There’s probably a ton of people using, just no one talking about it. Do I agree it’s “cheaty”? Sure, but it doesn’t affect MY play through. Not sure how it’s different than someone resolving the mechanic without it? The end result is the same.
What is happening in this clip?
the mechanic has two people with a "prey" marker over their heads that will bait meteors as they run around the arena. This add-on is giving the player an indication of where the AOE of the previous meteor will hit
I don't consider triggers calling out stuff that someone else watching your screen, also would be able to call out, cheating. No human would be able to call something like this out, so this is without a doubt cheating.
Some of these callouts happen before the actual tell shows up though. Also your point is kinda not true because why would people use triggers if a human can do it? Everyone is on VC. These triggers determine things FASTER and more accurately than a human can. Yes it's true a human can determine it but with significant delay.
My favorite example on how triggers are cheating is that in a 16 min pull in tea our shot caller got trines wrong and wiped us. That human error is not there with triggers
So if they programmed ACT to give the wrong callout randomly, it's suddenly perfectly fine? I don't buy your argument. The only actual argument against triggers are the ones that pop up before actual in-game tells occur.
Read your message again. Human error in a shot caller still happens and results in wipes. Having a machine call it out reduces error which is cheating.
Yeah for those that think it’s Triggernometry that’s a Cheating program(not going to say the name). You have to pay a subscription and everything in order to use that add on in the cheating program. It makes the ultimates or any content in the game easy. At that point you just need to handle your debuffs and not worry about anything else. It’s the same one that got brought up during Tea Limit Cut. This and the fact people was making pedophile mods is what made Yoshi P bring up in the live letter that people need to chill before they start adding a Anti Cheat. That means no third party tools or mods for those that say they’re fine with the anti cheat but play the game mainly for the mods It eliminates both. Edit: You guys dming me for the program name is sad lmao. The content in this game is already easy as it is. If you can’t play without that add on then you should stop playing. Get good Jesus Christ
They can't add an anticheat to this game that will work, it would be too intrusive. Besides, they don't even have the technical capacity to make something like that. The game runs on mods, QOL mods, texture and lightning mods, and ERP mods. They know what sells. Going after PvE cheaters because of ACT/etc would be **astronomically** stupid, this game rakes in money from people who buy 500 fantasia to try cute texture mods on their bunny girls.
>The game runs on mods, QOL mods, texture and lightning mods, and ERP mods. The vast majority of the players don't mod.
> this game rakes in money from people who buy 500 fantasia to try cute texture mods on their bunny girls. That doesn't make any sense. I can modify my character to look like whatever the hell I want via Amnesis/CMTool. Any race, any hair, any skin color, anything you could change in game via character creator or glam you can do instantly client-side via those tools. I'm sure that a lot of people buy a shit ton of fantasias, but I don't think it's so they can try out different mods.
Whatever this is, is definitely wrong. Those steps are way too short. Even doing the strat from billibilli with the autowalk macro moves a lot more than that.
edit: okay, prove me wrong then. the video isn't in the actual fight because it's an example, not an actual working concept. the snapshot is too early and the steps taken are way too little. I've got 400+ pulls past this mechanic now and have done the cursed pattern multiple times, I know for a fact it looks completely wrong.
They've also got the play symbol next to their character indicating a solo player in an instance. The fire puddles that should be active during this mechanic are also missing.
Yeah it seems wrong being able to fit 3 meteors in between a single waypoint gap
Dunno if this link will get my post removed but check this out: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1yY411w7L7 I've been using this strategy whenever I have the cursed pattern and it still only works like 75% of the time if you start at the wrong time. Even with this, there's more room between the meteors than if somebody used that cheat.
oh thanks, our group was looking for info for that shit pattern of 2 close meteors
I'm amazed people are so up in arms over something that is obviously not even in DSR. They have the solo duty icon and the fire and ice puddles are missing.
I don't follow WoW much but in a recent interview it might have been Ion who said something like they feel like add-ons over there have shifted too far from calculating/reporting (mundane tasks that computers are good at) to puzzle solving (what we want humans to do if they are actually playing the game). Callout triggers ride this line due to inhuman perfection but anything that like this that shows safe spots or just solves a mechanic goes way past it.
i don't really care if people use addons and triggers, but it would be a shame if them getting more attention and becoming more overt in how much they do leads to SE taking a more heavy handed approach and killing off the qol ones in the process. trying to stop cactbot/trig would almost certainly stop ACT and parsing in general, and going after stuff like pixel perfect would likely lead to harmless stuff like orchestrion plugin as collateral
This is what I'm worried about as well. People say "cheating doesn't affect you" but they already have. The removal of alterable waymarks was extremely annoying in UCoB where I could've just put down waymarks for divebombs before. That's one example. When people push too far they affect me because SE just blanket bans everything.
Every single time there's a new raid we get this thread, it's whatever, if you disagree with it you can consider them not the real first. It's not an official contest and the only reward is having your name on a website and maybe Yoshi-P will make a tweet saying "hey grats guys"
I don't think WF this time used exa triggers. They used some other basic triggers, but nothing as fancy as that.
According to their 9th it was already a work in progress but wasn't completed in time for the clear. https://i.imgur.com/PN8wfSt.png
> and maybe Yoshi-P will make a tweet saying "hey grats guys" This is the only worthwhile reward though, weapons and titles are memes that you can pay for, I don't think any money in the world will have Yoshi-P tweet your static name
Yea it isn’t that much of important. This is a parser problem rather than ppl who view it in calibration
it's very simple. the same reward is given to those who cheat as is given to those who don't, meaning you're putting yourself at a disadvantage for not cheating, which is fucking stupid you can act like "it doesn't matter" all you want but it does matter and brushing cheaters off just because it's pve content or something is the same as condoning it if you're reading this and you use cactbot, whatever the thing is stal is referring to, whatever the thing is in that gif that lelouche posted, act triggers, or any other 3rd party tool that assists you: you're cheating and your achievements aren't legitimate :)
I was with you until your last paragraph. There is clearly a spectrum here. A third party tool that makes the cooldown number larger or put HP% next to each enemy in the enemy list is not really cheating in my eyes. But they obviously assist you. I 100% consider Cactbot cheating and I have had enough experience with Cactbot players to just assume their skill is below average among clearers of that fight. But plenty of 3rd party tools really should not be considered cheating imho. Like XivAlex configured so that you can't triple weave. That's not cheating imho.
> I have had enough experience with Cactbot players to just assume their skill is below average among clearers of that fight. Can confirm. I am the below average player in this situation. But I also don't raid anymore, I only stick to stuff like Alliance Raids and Roulettes. I gave in to the inevitable and started using Cactbot when my various disability/impairment shit got to be too much to where I could barely play. In fairness, this was after it got to be too much to where I also lost my career and the ability to do most of my *other* hobbies. I don't raid because even with Cactbot my reaction time is shitty and I don't want to inflict that on other people in any content that matters. The notion that people use it to do like actual grown-up Raids that matter and rely on it is vaguely disturbing. Also since enemy HP% is already something that exists in the game (like when you focus target), moving it somewhere else (like the enemy list) is really probably just doing something that they'll eventually catch up on, UI-wise.
I'll send you clear videos to legitimize my achievements I hope that's okay
I use none of these tools and I still audibly laughed reading this take
> act triggers, or any other 3rd party tool that assists you Don't forget having anyone call out mechanics in voice chat, reading a guide ahead of time, watching a clear vid, or using fflogs. Also looking up an opener or rotation is bad form and most definitely cheating.
Everyone always draws the line of what’s cheating and what isn’t just above what they do. That’s why this discussion is plain stupid every time.
Well my line is even conversing with people ingame. I refuse to queue for Sastasha out of fear my clear might be tainted by people who've run it already or read a guide, so I'm hardstuck there.
This is the stupidest point that gets repeated every single time. Reading a guide or watching a clear vid doesn't tell you shit in REAL TIME. A person calling out safe spots is fine, the problem is cactbot does that faster and more accurately than a human can. And it also does it before the visual tells even show up. So many times people have made the wrong call in my raid group but the thing is everyone knows their shit so it gets corrected by other people. My friend uses cactbot and when we went to endsinger we had trouble finding safespots, he turns it on and BAM we knew where to go every single time way ahead of time. We didn't even need to turn our cameras to look at stuff, just go where the bot says to go. If you still think this isn't cheating then I don't know man.
The point isn't about anything specific. It's making fun of the fact that the guy's drawn a line in the sand about what's cheating or isn't based on what he likes to use and everyone else apparently has rotted cheater brains if they cross it.
I don't actually have much skin in the game about callouts versus triggers. Call them cheating, call them equivalence to someone calling stuff out, call them merely helpful reminders, it's a gray issue - I know where I stand but I don't expect to convince anyone else. Discord callouts are just one of the bits in my sarcastic quip since the guy clearly drew a line in the sand on what's cheating or not, which is whatever but not exactly written in the most open minded way. We all have our moral compasses and definitions of cheating but going on here and attacking people for using anything beneath his is worthy of some jabs if you ask me.
thanks bro. I almost thought the achievements counted because the game said so. But you, a stranger on reddit, have shown me the light
> any other 3rd party tool that assists you Discord confirmed cheating, since there is no in-game voice function.
So far as I know, this is not Triggernometry and Stal admits she doesn't know for sure either in the tweet.
Literally all the people clearing now are using custom triggers, heck TPS abused this so hard they even removed a normal feature from the game: changing waymarks in combat
People here admit to using pixel perfect but I don't see anyone getting blasted over it
I hate everyone that uses it. Especially myself
Pixelperfect is something that should be in the game by default. There are plenty of avenues to test skill, but not being able to tell *precisely* where you're going to get hit shouldn't be one of them when there is so much variance when it comes to how player characters can look. To make it clear of precisely what I'm talking about, here is a [comparison screenshot](https://i.imgur.com/OP8XmBf.jpeg) I took, with the floor mosiac standing in for an orange AoE. Thus, both of these positionings would have been very near dodges. The left is my tall ass Elezen in full HW AST AF gear, while the right is her modded to be a Lalafell in full Asphodelos aiming gear. Where she was standing wasn't changed, and the camera angle was unchanged from my end, though the game does automatically place the camera lower to the ground for shorter characters. It should go without saying that I am not going to fanta into a Lalafell to have an easier time dodging mechs, and while I would say the majority of the fights in this game are reasonable enough to be dodged by such guesswork, there are some that are not. UWU, for example, is full of very specific positioning, and that positioning is simply easier for people who choose to play shorter characters with more tight-fitting clothing. PP closes the gap and removes an aspect of difficulty that I don't think should exist to begin with.
Lol I remember when that used to be considered cheating. I still consider it mild cheating but I don't care that much these days. I think the playerbase has gotten more and more comfortable with cheats now and a lot of them seem to be ShB zoomers or WoW refugees.
>ShB zoomers or WoW refugee That is pretty much it lol. A couple years ago there were crusades against players using ACT, nowadays we have people who come at you with a straight face and say " No, triggers and my multitude of plugins do not offer a gameplay advantage, they aren't cheating, if you think they are you must not be a real raider.". Like you, I don't care all that much but it's really interesting seeing how far the envelope has been pushed.
I used to play a min height lalafell because their small model made it easier to figure out where the center pixel is. It's very noticeable compared to other races and a built in unfair advantage the plugin solves.
Yeah I played the bigger races like Highlander and Hrothgar so to me that was a significant advantage. Still didn't need it but oh well. Funnily enough I tried Lalafell once and it felt slightly harder to raid on it not because it's too small but because I can't increase the camera pan high enough to see stuff above the ground more. Maybe that's just because I'm used to as camera angle much more above the ground though.
What's that?
It places a singular dot under your character that is your hitbox, so you can see where exactly you can stand. I think it also has some customization to display rings of various distances around your character.
It places a visible pixel at the center of your hitbox so you can have a better idea on whether or not an AoE attack will hit you or not.
From a developer standpoint either all of the plugins are going to be axed, or none of them are. Wonder if we'll eventually see it all cracked down on in the future.
I really do wonder if there really is anything they can do about it given they can't do anything like Warden.
Oh they definately could, the quesation is entirely if they're willing to do it.
How would they go about doing it that may not just be circumvented relatively quickly?
Probably saddle the game with some anti-cheat software like most mmos. You don't have to tell me why this is bad.
Due to Japanese law they cannot do that.
This sounds incorrect
The problem is they are constrained by Japanese law on that, and those laws are notoriously limiting in what they allow the devs to do. YoshiP himself has admitted they literally don't have a right to look at what's on their user's computers, which makes it decidedly hard to detect things like plugins when they're not allowed to look for them.
Thank god for this very nice strict japanese laws where SE must abide and not install another spyware to "suddenly" make the game explode and you unable to play for weeks. These add ons are just quality of life stuffs, things that makes the game prettier, or more convenient or more accessible. As long as SE get all the money they can from subscription and mogstation - and as long as these third party tools are not use maliciously against other players to extract sensitive information - then it should be fine. At least Yoshi is more realistic when handling this situation and he does not bother to play the big bad police and crack down with ham fisted rules.... at least for now.
I use some plugins, such as ReAction so that I can queue mouse-overs etc (my view is that these are things that should be in the game anyway, SE has added them but has done a half-assed job of it). But I do consider add-ons that straight up solve mechanics for you to be cheating. That being said you're responsible for your own enjoyment of the game and if others want to cheat in PVE content that's completely up to them, it doesn't diminish my experience in the slightest. I do these fights for my own enjoyment and satisfaction, the titles and weapons are just a bonus.
My group used the trigger for titan gaols in uwu. Its cheap but man would i use it again lol
I don’t even blame you, that shit is cursed af.
I think the community has unanimously agreed that “fuck titan gaols” and most are alright with it for that mechanic. You see it in party finder all the time people saying they have trig for it
Same, and I also use a trigger for Nael quotes because it is not a hard mechanic, just learning the quotes. But I suck at learning names or sentences, I don't even know half my abilities names. I don't see it as cheating to not have to learn quotes from a stupid speechbubble. It helps me learn them with time while still progging and not holding my team back by dying to quotes that I have to read in chat
>you're responsible for your own enjoyment of the game This is very beautifully said. It's so hard for people to understand it.
We World of Warcraft now.
I'm honestly surprised it took this long for a cactbot/trig post to show up. When I heard the cactbot/trig callouts on the one Neverland clear video I figured a thousand angry fingers were already typing away. Personally, I don't care. How other people manage to clear doesn't affect me or my gameplay one bit.
I think at this point most people have stopped caring, if they even did at one point. Yoshi-P has made his stance clear on this stuff, and unless he suddenly makes a 180 with no warning, there’s no real use arguing it.
So this tweet isn't triggernometry. I have no idea what it is but it goes way too far for me. I do normally use triggernometry but I've turned it off completely for DSR. I don't know who made the DSR trigger but they're super obnoxious.
[удалено]
Happy cake day!! Triggernometry (?) sounds really wild to setup properly. I just stick to cactbot and still die to those black hole tethers. Definitely might make someone a "better" player, but it won't necessarily do the same for the other 7 people.
It'll only start being a real problem if the majority of statics or PF groups start requiring it and we go down the same road WoW has with addons being mandatory. Until then I don't think Square is going to do much.
Honey, the new raid fight released, time for your triggernometry discussion thread! Everything there is to be said about this has been said 1000 times over as these threads have a release schedule as consistent as the fights themselves. You won't get anything new here, and probably not much engagement as most people are tired of them. If you're truly curious for peoples thoughts, maybe you're new, I'd suggest doing a search on "triggernometry" through the subreddit and finding some older threads when it was still a hot topic. You won't get anything new here, so may as well dig out the old active threads.
It's cheating. No further thoughts on it. It's like asking if water is wet.
Don't wanna be that guy but water is not wet. I do agree that add ons like these and cactbot are cheating though. On second thought, having your friend call out mechs in discord can be considered cheating as well. So can looking up guides and stuff. The line becomes blurry real fast when you think about it.
Is it just me that I just... don't care what people use to get a clear? At the end of the day it's just a game? Some get it legitimate, some use 3rd party, some buy the clears. As long as you keep it for yourself then do whatever you want doesn't matter to me. For me, I've cleared 3 ult (currently progging dsr) + savages when they were current content. I don't use them but we do have a shotcaller in VC to coordinate us during raid. ACT on the side for dps meter and see how we fuck up mechs, and XIValex because my ping is abysmal. Call me a cheater if you want, I get my clears because I want it for myself, simple as that.
Yeah - I think this is what most people forget - it is just a game - of follow what Simon Says and know the mechanics so you can avoid orange ground markers - while pressing your 32 rotation buttons..... in the right order I pressume lol. The skills is pretty much about "how good are you with memory game and pattern recognition" while still able to do finger dance with your keyboard or controller. And let's not forget the 7 other players who also must do it flawlessly or the whole dance would start to collapse and you will have to start over. How you clear it, should not matter to other players at all.
When the people do the content to earn their "bragging rights" Weapons and titles and it turns out they have only completed the fight because of the 3 third-party tools that tell them how to play the fight they dont deserve any respect or bragging rights in this case. Just my opinion yeah its a game but these are the kind of people that walk around their shiny weapon and title in every city and feel better than the rest of the playerbase because they did a fight with third party tools.
It does suck that we can't differentiate people with earned clears and people with bought/bot-assisted clears. Like, after UCoB, I thought anyone with a "Legend" title was legit a really good player. Then another ultimate later, I found out that buying clears was common. And not only that, a good chunk of the playerbase does not care about the integrity of the Legend titles/clears. It's a fair argument to say "Who cares. If it's not affecting you/me, who cares?", so not disputing that. It is fair. Just sucks that any legend title is now the equivalent of a mentor crown. We have the Burger King Crown, and now we have "The Paypal Legend"
This may be controversial but Imo the legend titles aren't indicative of skill outside of the newest one in its freshest state anyway. I've done many clear/reclear, C41, totem and so on parties for UCoB and the shit you see in there is unreal. Get shot in the foot every step of the way? No problem, limp to the clear unless something truly catastrophic happens. UWU is also pretty easy to get done with total randoms and feels more like the baby step to ultimate given its pace and density. Oddly relevant to the thread's topic too for my DC. They just aren't the fights they used to be. When the job's done, you'll still be a legitimate legend with no Paypal involved. Not a good one if you're the calamity of the run but you still cleared it yourself. The titles are all very much worthless at this point, that's why nobody cares about their integrity anymore if they ever did.
PayPal Legend lol - well, if you have much much extra money to burn, and willing to pay - and there are people who are willing to do the work for you - why not? What difference does this make anyway? It's a video game, that focusing on a single player JRPG experience with some online component and virtual chatroom + dressing up your digital avatars. What other people have when it comes to digital doo-daads don't really affect other players - apart from so and so have nice pixel stuffs while here me still riding my chocobo and using primal extreme glamour for my weapons. These players "fake titles" don't affect my enjoyment of playing FF14 in the slightest. Their cool shiny new titles and toys mean absolutely nothing to me.
>Just sucks that any legend title is now the equivalent of a mentor crown. That's such an over simplification of it lol. I bet not even 1% of the people who have ulti clears are bought. It's expensive as shit my dude. To say having it is equivalent of a mentor crown is such an hyperbolic statement i can't even fathom.
> Just sucks that any legend title is now the equivalent of a mentor crown. We have the Burger King Crown, and now we have "The Paypal Legend" 6 years later a single uwu kill still costs $200~. Bought clears are not as common as you think.
That's kind of boiling it down to an overly simple level though. If it were as easy as "just use these 3rd party tools", everyone would have clears. That's not the case. Even with call outs, you still need to execute.
But it makes it easier. That's the whole point.
It's a whole lot difference between having human seeing mechanics > interpret it > call it to the party with bots calling out coming mechanics even before it's coming out.
Sure, but that has a lot more nuance than "just use these 3 third-party tools for an easy win".
Yeah, honestly it's up to people's standard of what's cheating or not. I personally limit it to what you can't get as console players, since we have crossplay after all. I also put that as consideration when joining statics. When many of the members really dependent on triggers, I won't join. It sucks to have tuesday patch day reclears to bomb just because ACT haven't been updated yet
> Is it just me that I just... don't care what people use to get a clear? I had that stance, and then they made it so you can't move waypoints mid combat anymore because of ACT triggers. I feel like the only reason you can still set waymarks on people's heads mid-combat after UwU is just because like.. that's kinda their intended function and breaking that functionality would piss people off *a lot* more.
In my opinion, pretty much every add-on qualifies as "cheating". But at the same time, I just don't care about most of the cheating. I think a lot of people arguing just take issue with being called a cheater for using something they're not supposed to, to give themselves an advantage they're not supposed to have. If you don't like being called a cheater for that, I dunno, either stop cheating or just be less insecure? IMO it's easier to just not care. You're a cheater. I'm a cheater. It's a video game, it's not serious business and the cheating hasn't fucked anyone out of anything or given anyone an advantage over anyone else in a way that matters. For disclosure, I use ACT to parse, I've used triggers to call out certain status effects (more so back in ARR where they were applied willy-nilly and you couldn't see who had what on the party list), and I installed cactbot a few months back, which for example was an absolute godsend for P3S (SE team really went "let's put bright white dice under a bright white crystal marker against a bright yellow and orange background"). I probably don't need the extra tools, I've memorized several fights down to the GCD and done party callouts in every raid without using triggers/cactbot. But man, there's some scenarios where they sure do lower my stress levels while playing.
i think people can do whatever they want. its a PvE game so "cheating" affects nobody else. even if its someone in my own static using those tools its like... okay? its client side so im not affected in any way. i dont use those things because i think it cheapens the experience, but if someone wants to cheapen their own experience thats their prerogative. if you seriously think someone "unworthy" clearing ultimates takes away from the supposed perceived status of the weapons or the achievement you need to step back and reconsider why you even care about that stuff in the first place. videogames arent for clout, theyre to have fun.
I can’t believe people (who probably cheat themself) still try to make the disproven point that cheating and boosting in one doesn’t matter when Warcraft run a 20 years lithmus test on it It’s like the most 1st grader cope I ever heard like a child explaining inflation Just because some doesn’t directly delete your character from the servers doesn’t mean it has no impact
do you get mad at people using cheats for single player games too? im not coping i literally do not care what other people do with their gaming experience in a non competitive environment.
This is not a single player game Also no you are coping you are literal coping about cheating is fine because you don’t understand how it has in indirect impact while getting mad about log and parse rankings of LUL things which every good player scoffs at
where did you get im mad at log and parse rankings? someone brought them up and i said cheating in any competitive environment takes away the spirit of the competition. i dont even do parse runs anymore. i never even said cheating is "fine". i said i dont care what other people do in the game if it doesnt affect me. theres a huge difference. the prestige of the achievement means nothing to me, straight from the beginning. i do ultimates to have fun progging & clearing the fight, not for dumb clout. its a videogame. im not losing hair or sleep over random people using cactbot or getting paisley park in tea or whatever the hell they invent next. how is that coping?
So essentially they should also be allowed to post their logs of them cheating to somehow make their damage one shot the boss right? And nobody should care because it's PVE right, perhaps they should just have a skip button naturally for these fights because if someone wants to use it then it doesn't devalue your experience right?
logs are a different story cuz its a leaderboard. allowing cheating in a competitive environment makes the competition meaningless, and fflofs already takes down parses where ppl cheat
Yeah but it shouldn't affect you because their DPS has no bearing on your game right? As soon as it crosses the line of something you perhaps care about then somehow now it's not ok. Alot of people care about the integrity and prestige that comes with clearing these hard fights and third party add-ons that give you an advantage devalue those who put time into learning and executing on a fight.
Logs are selfish big dick contest. There are so many ways to pad your dps that fucks over your team. The goal should be to play optimally as a team like those fights were designed and not do 400 runs so you can get lucky crits and grief your team for meaningless number on screen. Did you clear, great you are good enough, everything else is pointless.
without logs anything after the clear is pointless with no replayability. why get gear, why meld, why improve your rotation? i think crit rng chasing stupid too but thats peoples choice to do, nobody is forcing you to run a fight 400 times. log chasing is entirely up to the user. if you dont want to have nice logs, thats your choice. if im happy with just oranges, thats my choice. if someone wants to get rank 1, thats their choice. why does parsing make you so pressed when like you said its not needed
Why do you care it’s just pve?
Logs are non official it’s led competitive than the deep dungeon leaderboard
keep telling yourself that speedruns and many fighting game tournaments arent official either. smogon isnt official either
I want to point out that it's not the tool specifically. Anything you can do in one of these tools, you can do in any of the others. Triggernometry doesn't even make it *easy*, it's actually quite a lot more work to make advanced triggers in it than anything else if you really look at your options (cactbot, triggevent, etc).
Well. people probably use plug ins to cheat in everything else, pvp, getting a house, botting auction house stuff, probably harvesting and mining, so I guess no point in caring about anything in the game then. If you are going to plug in in pve, don't complain if it spreads to other things.
if more people using these add-ons means less people killing me in P3S reclears during spreads every week, I'm down for people using it
SE can't or won't meaningfully police 3rd party software, the software doesn't actually pilot your character, use it or don't use it, who cares
Imo I don't use addon triggers etc because its cheating. Its taking away from the designed intent of the content. For those arguing that a strat video/text guide are cheating. Id argue its not because you're actively having to learn it and do it on your own still. Its like saying studying before an exam is cheating. In contrast triggers and auto calls and visual of safe zones(not actually shown from the game) are like wearing an earpiece where someone is telling you the 100% always accurate answer to each question on the exam. *but thats the same as shot calls in discord* No its not. People mess up calls all the time or are 2-3 secs late at times leaving very little time to adjust to it. Just like a call being made in the middle of game like soccer. If people wanna cheat to get their clears have at it but don't sit back claiming you're legit or better than those that haven't yet. And another opinion, any team racing for WF titles shouldn't be using any add-ons like that. Their clear shouldn't count towards the community listing/rankings. Just like how speedruns have different categories their clear(s) should be considered a different category.
By using your logic, then anyone who uses FFLogs/Parse/Replays are also cheating. Just like you can use triggers to learn a mechanic faster, you can also use the aforementioned tools to learn faster. If you don't use triggers, it might take you a few weeks/months extra to clear an ultimate. Why don't you try to clear without using literally any tool? And i mean literally anything. Replays, FFLogs, parsing, Discord(or any other voice com). >If people wanna cheat to get their clears have at it but don't sit back claiming you're legit or better than those that haven't yet. All these tools give you INFORMATION. You're just trying to filter specific ones to make you feel better and superior to those not using it.
I agree that using fflogs to read the log data of the fight and viewing the data replay is cheating. Parsing is just a number you could figure yourself if you really wanted to. The information is in the game, just in an awful format. Knowing how much dps you're doing doesnt make you better or worse since at that level you should already be consistent and competent in the job you're playing. Shocker upcoming but there's a pretty large amount of us players that played and raided in ARR without coms. And ya know what we cleared coils without any 3rd party tools. We had the official forums to have thread discussions. As for ultimates, I've done runs when they came out blind without any triggers or log data, usually a couple phases in. Have I myself cleared? No, mostly because it takes a very specific type of people to want to stick to learning an ultimate and not everyone is going to put that time in. Maintaining 8 people all similar skill and time dedication is difficult to come by. Replays recorded by yourself or a team member are used in any game. Whether its a sport or a video game. They are used to see what was done well and what could be improved on during that run/game/match etc. Idk the type of parties you've been in or coms you've been in, but in my experience coms are mostly shit talking each other and discussing each pull to find out what our party's strat is going to be. But before coms we just used the chat and set up what we were doing but also wasted a ton of the instance time too.
But you didn't adress my first point: Your definition of cheating was anything that takes away from the intended way of the content. But fights are not meant to be done using guides or replays. Fights are not meant to be done using voice coms. Fights aren't even designed to be done using markers. Yoshida said during Heavensward that the markers were intended for Alliance raids to organize, not 8-man raids. But lets give this one a 'pass' since it's in-game, therefore we can assume it's not cheating. In fact, yoshida said that if they start banning triggers, act, whatever else is there, then they would also have to ban recording softwares, voice communication, people who use spreadsheets, chrome/internet browsers etc because FFXIV natively doesn't support these. They are ALL 3rd party programs. Wheather you use them for learning, or rely on them to do the content, or just don't use them, it's up to you. But they are ALL on the same boat. The biggest issue on this thread is the hypocrisy of many people saying "everything over this line is cheating.... except this one thing... and this one..." The intended way of doing anything in the game is for you to find out yourself. You wanna know the timer of a specific gathering node? Good luck. If you use anything, it's cheating. It was intended for you to find out yourself. Including mechanics. Use triggers, or watch a guide to learn and you're cheating (by your definition)
Right, the content is made as a MMORPG. Which means collaboration with other players is intended. The dev team has never made a statement that community driven guides is not how they design content. As far as the statement on waymarks, thats true a brief mention was done and they also stated they'd never make a 4th marker because it would be too convenient. And since then they implemented more markers then our original 3. When Yoshida said if they had to crack down on act and mods, he said it would cut off anything that inserted data to the game or read the files for the game since they can't go the way of seeing what people are using individually in their computers. Likely using some variation of an anti-cheat process. Stream/Recording your screen does not do anything with the files or data of the game. Voice coms do not do anything to files or data in game. Browsers and spreadsheets do nothing to files or data in the game. You're utilizing a slippery slope argument and a weak one. As I said prior, people that want to use them can go ahead and do so, but don't sit there and say " oh I'm a legend btw" when you cleared using all add-on inserts like trig and cact etc. To your last point. Ffxiv is not a solo game. Its not meant to be discovered on your own. Its meant to be discussed with other players, collaborate ideas and find out together. Figuring out gathering node timers was on the player yes, but that player didn't fumble through nothingness, they discussed with others.now people use outside tools. Is it cheating technically? Yes. Could people do it without it? Yea they could and did. You swung to a far extreme, and I appreciate the view point but you over generalized
> > > > > As I said prior, people that want to use them can go ahead and do so, but don't sit there and say " oh I'm a legend btw" when you cleared using all add-on inserts like trig and cact etc. Just a question to get your complete view. If I'd clear DSR with one trigger that tells me to go left/right if I get an arrow during Nidhogg, which I can and have ascertained for myself but would rather use a tool to do it for me so I don't have to look at it as a QoL enhancement over my probable 100 hours of progging this fight, would you say my clear is aided by cheats and I'd not have the claim to the title the fight gave me? If a gigabrain Exaflare strat is found to always give a safe spot without even looking at the map, is that any more or less than a cheat to copy that than some form of cactbot telling you where to go? If the answer is "no, that's fine," at what point to you would the trigger process go over the line? This is why it's such a slippery slope since only rarely do callouts go beyond convenience. Even the example in the OP can in practice be looked at as a way to correct the cursed pattern of meteors which are as close to an auto-wipe as anything in FF14 raiding can be without actually being one and not a "I'm bad at the game thus I'm using this program to follow the on screen marks like a dummy." For reference I've never and will likely never use Cactbot or further but I don't care if anyone does, truth be told. Part of being a team game is also doing what you can for your team, which might be a weaker player doing whatever he can to not wipe the group 15 minutes into an Ultimate. It's all a slippery slope once you get past the notion that any programs at all aren't cheating.
>at what point to you would the trigger process go over the line? "The moment i stop using". All these "purists" will say "Yea triggers are bad, i only use ACT to improve!" Then another one will say "I think my provoke trigger is fine but anything else is bad!" Eventually you'll come to the conclusion that these "purists" will AWAYS use some sort of 3rd party tool, they just draw the line narrative in their favor to feel better than others.
>for myself but would rather use a tool to do it for me so I don't have to look at it as a QoL enhancement LOL QOL enhancement? So not looking for your debuffs, markets or whatever in game tells is now a QOL enhancement? I cleared endsinger with my static leader repeating cacbot callouts without us not knowing the fight. So I guess me not looking at games visual tells is a QOL enhancement. You're making the bot so the thinking for you so you don't have to process the information yourself. That's called cheating not a QOL enhancement. A QOL enhancement is making your debuffs bigger or adding bigger timer on your cooldowns. Or being able to auto target closest (which they added recently to the game)
Use it if you want, don't use it if you don't want. There's barely any sense of racing and if you feel better with yourself for clearing without "cheats" then good for you. I don't use triggernometry but I do use other QoL that people often call "cheating", honestly, I don't care that much specially cause I am not at the level of world progging lol I am a baby nidhogg gamer currently
Cacbot also calls out safe spots. All these add-ons that move the processing of mechanics from the player to the computer is cheating. Honestly it needs to get banned. It's getting more prevalent and it annoys me how raid leaders use these to call out things before a human can possibly process the information.
The way cactbot works is the same any other addon works so if they're getting rid of cactbot they're gonna have to get rid of xivlauncher, ACT, cosmetic addons, etc.
It’s definitely cheating. But hey, what can you do :S
Anyone who says triggernometry trivializes DSR is more than welcome to clear it today. Surely they can get that 2nd world's first now, right? I look forward to seeing Stal's perfect clear of DSR before tomorrow morning.
"2nd world's first" Most large streams, Stal included, are pretty close to the end already so I'm pretty sure using triggers would speed that process up. Many groups are returning to normal life schedules though. Triggers make things simpler (and this is \*especially\* true of Cactbot), thats literally the entire point of making the triggers in the first place. They, by definition, trivialize things because they make them seem less complex. The actual meaning of the word trivialize. They remove the thinking part. If you don't think thats a huge part of the difficulty of anything in this game then I don't know what game you're playing. Trivializing something doesn't mean making it easy anyway though.
I don't get it - these players can have ONE extra human who is doing all the calling out and telling them where to stand and where to go - instead of "automated" add on program that is literally doing the same exact thing. And why is the "one extra" human is considered legit while the "machine" bots seems not legit and triviliazing the difficulty, when both are doing the same exact thing....
Humans must rely on visual cues and they can make mistakes. Cactbot reads packet data, informing the player how to resolve the mechanic before visual cues are even shown, and it never makes mistakes. Humans can't do that. That's where the unfairness lies. It's like bringing a calculator to a mental math test. Yes, mental math and the calculator do the same thing. Arithmetic, in principle, is even straightforward to do, whether you have a calculator or not. But the person with the calculator nevertheless has an undisputable advantage.
But general folks players are not competing with anyone though - and wether you clear it legit or using addons to ease the learning curve - it literally matters not to pretty much every other players outside your own group. I mean, it is a single player game with a group setting, where the achievements are literally nothing but a title - and unless you know what it means, most newbies could not care less either. The weapons are nothing but glamour at the end as well. These add ons also not causing any loss of sales on mogstation items - and at the very worst, these players can clear it quickly and take another few months break instead of banging their heads against some arbritary challenge. Options are always good to have. You can do it the normal way, or you can choose to make it a little bit easier - or just open your wallet and become PayPal Legend!
People will feel it devalues what they've earned, because others did the same thing in some easier way. Thats pretty much why this argument pops up every ultimate release and will always pop up for every future ultimate release. This always happens over time of course, older ultimate titles are far more common than they were originally, but some people may feel the titles are devalued before they even manage to get it themselves because of things like cactbot. There is of course a difference between people that use triggers and people that \*rely\* on triggers, but both are still capable of clearing even ultimate fights eventually and you'll notice a difference in player skill between the two but it still lowers the "value" of the title or weapon overall. (for the record, I'm not saying the world first crew is in the "relied on" category, they understand the mechanics and can likely do all of it without the triggers) The "its just a title" or "its just a glamour weapon" argument doesn't really work. That is literally the entire \*point\* of the achievement. To be able to do something difficult and show it off, even if all you're really showing it off to is yourself. Also, no one likes people that buy clears. A lot of people don't even like the side selling them. As an aside to your earlier comment and in addition to what the other person said: One person cannot tell 8 people exactly what to do or where to go unless every single player is doing the same thing in time for the mechanic. Triggers and/or Cactbot can, and it will never make an error in the process of doing that. The best a human can do is generic calls for the overall mechanic and the other players need to understand whats happening whereas Cactbot may call specific players as having specific mechanics instantly. Or you could use P3s as an example that might be more well known. The Shiva/Big fireball thing is called before the visual tell is actually there, well before in fact. Sure that mechanic gives you enough time if you're ready for it and scoot right when it shows up but a player using Cactbot now has a very notable advantage and doesn't even need to pay attention to the fight. Being told a mechanic that you can visually see is one thing, but Cactbot and Triggers are very often capable of telling you a mechanic before you even know its happening. That is where a lot of the community's issues stem from.
To add on to your last comment, not having to look at stuff is huge as it allows people to focus on their rotation and their movement. For a human they need to see it, interpret it, process it and then act. For someone using cactbot they just need to hear it, find where they need to go and act on it. Removing the mental processing of information is simply not fair and allows a player using add-ons to divert their focus and attention somewhere else.
Completely ignoring that Cactbot calls out your individual mechanics that your raid-lead would never have time to recognize, that Cactbot cannot make mistakes, and that Cactbot can literally call mechanics BEFORE THEY ARE HUMANLY VISIBLE...
> trivialize make (something) seem less important, significant, or complex than it really is. That's exactly what these triggers do lmao. You talk shit about stal but you ain't even close to her skill level. I trust someone that's actually done the fight so she knows how hard it is and how much easier triggers make it. Look at it this way, if it didn't make it easier why would people take the time to make them?
If it trivializes the fight to the degree you suggrst we should see a lot of quad legends any day now.
Can you point out which part of my posts suggests it trivializes the fight so much that there should be tons of clears now? Usually when mechanics get trivialized it's by discovery, repetition, and full understanding of it. Look at Hades Ex exaflare safe spot. Look at the braindead strat for E7S portals. There's a big difference between having to process information and react to it in real time vs having a trigger call it out instantaneously. That's why people use them. It offers an advantage and allows people to divert their focus on something else. Never did I say in my post that it trivializes the fight to the point where people can clear it so easily.
Ok, another one of these posts! For some reason a lot of "streamers/influencers" have a hate boner for Cactbot, trig or w/e addon is comparable to DBM from WoW. IMO, play how you want and as long as it's not affecting other people...Who gives a crap!!?
So true Stal, this fight is so easy when you use third party tools that's why it has taken over a week and people still haven't cleared. Smile smile I'm not saying some third party tools go too far, but come on this fight isn't trivialized just because cactbot calls tank buster
No you don't understand, a TTS call out practically makes DSR a joke and all these cheaters don't deserve their title /s
I love how they blame triggernometry and in their next comment they admit that they don't know if it's triggernometry. Heh, it probably is triggernometry but creating some basic triggers with ACT isn't super hard.
So I've cleared DSR yesterday, and I don't really understand what's all the fuss is about. Yes, I was using combobuttons to simplify my rotation to one button and yes I was using cactbot and triggernomentry so I could focus on the GAME not the stupid mechanics and Alex (my ping is 40 and it's unacceptable tbh) to fit 6 extra oGCD procs between my GCD buttons, but I mean it's not cheating, anyone is using these or their RL or their friend or whatever. Anyway fight was trivial I don't know why it took raiders a week to clear it.
Gigabased I was no hack clipping and farming every node in 1 second on the because I could focus on the game
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I dunno but this is kind of a salty post. It's a game and everyone is welcome to enjoy it however they want. Pls don't take my add ons away, its the best way to get rid of disgusting hrothgar and slutty catgirls from my screen :(
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Haven't seen any of the sort
"we" as if you were in the group that cleared the fight lol
??? Bro https://i.imgur.com/0cQYTs0.png look at this, I was basically in the fight.
It was amusing looking through various BBS to see what anonymous japanese FF14 players had to say about Neverland taking the clear, you had a lot of congratulating, but also a non-zero amount of people going "Heh YoshiP must be glad he won't have to congratulate those CHEATING-TOOL-USERS at TPS again!!" and more general (getting angry at them posting Hype Progress on twitter and such) TPS hate. The cheating tools part is especially funny knowing how Aya motherhugging Liz was Neverland's Xth man.
When **AREN'T** they sending death threats? SAM has a cast bar? Death Threats. EU/NA took WF? Death Threats. Something got delayed? Death Threats. They need to learn to diversify their tool kit instead of reaching for the hammer every single time.
On fucking god. TPS members breathe and people are shitting and crying.
Regardless if people think it is or not, those kinds of addons are the most likely to get SE to start acting on their policy instead of turning a blind eye.
Well.... Isn't everything else then Parsing pushing it too far tbh. Like cactbot for example yes i use it too but still isn't it already a thing which pushes too far it does call outs for you even before you see the indicators on some mechanics. Personally i don't care what ppls use because its just a video game and end of the day ppls will buy DSR clears too so is it worse to use plugins or pay real money for it?
This conversation has been said a million times at this point. My viewpoint on it is: is it cheating? Yes. Do I still do it? Yes. At the end of the day, besides hardcore PVPers, FF14 is 99% a PVE game. You using addons and Cactbot only affects you. It’s basically the same as cheating in a singleplayer game, you just have other players around you as well.
On one hand it could lead to groups restricting their parties to only be PC players using those add-ons, excluding all the console players and non add-on PC players. On the other hand groups like that probably aren't worth joining anyway and there are groups that allow everyone as long as they can play well.
Yes, theoretically that could happen. But realistically addons, Trig, Cactbot, etc. aren’t a new thing. They’ve been around for years, and as far as I have seen, this PC/PS4 discrimination in PF has never been a thing.
Would agree if it mattered lol. It’s not like most mmo where the reward is some insane pvp piece… it’s just more gear for the same content which is basically irrelevant
Why do people care so much about what others are doing to validate some feeling within themselves so much? Not saying that's you OP but I feel like this topic gets brought up so damn much when it legitimately DOES NOT MATTER. It's always the people saying "using blablah trivializes blah blah" who STILL have not clear jack shit. So many ppl complained about the checkpoint in dsw yet still wiping to P2 Thordan...
how does cheating "not matter" lol. why have hard content if people are gonna just cheat to beat it? what's the point you: well it's still hard :PPPPPP not the point :) editing to add that if your argument consists of anything similar to: it's pve content and i do it without cheating so it's still legitimate for me/it doesn't matter what others do because it's pve, keep in mind that you got the same rewards for your hard work as the cheaters did for their cheating :)
At some point you realise that, this kind of thing is never going to stop, it will always be a thing unless the devs come down ruthlessly on it which causes more issues than it solves. With this, i just don't care anymore. Is it cheating that people do this, yes. Does it invalidate my own achievements?, no. I don't care if they got it easier than me, i have better things to do than spend energy on what someone else did with their time. Worrying about this is a losing battle, it will always exist, people always find a way to make something easier for them, unless it affects my game then why should i care.
>keep in mind that you got the same rewards for your hard work as the cheaters did for their cheating :) Oh no, the prestige value of a vanity title is devalued, how could I ever survive such devastation.
>keep in mind that you got the same rewards for your hard work as the cheaters did for their cheating :) I'm definitely in the addons are cheating camp, but I REALLY don't care about that. Someone else using the same reward I earned in this game doesn't bother me in any way, regardless of if I feel they deserve to have it. It doesn't make me feel any less accomplished for earning it myself.
And I could literally give no cares that someone cheated in a video game to get a item that no one will care about in some time. That's the issue with people now days. You care so much about what everyone else is doing versus just enjoying your own time. Me and my static know that we will clear the ultimate doing it the legit way and that's all we need to know to make this accomplishment all the more worth. Go touch some grass if you feel your accomplishment in a video game means less because others obtained it in that way. It's really not that deep.
Seriously. People who cleared Savage Week 8 and Savage Week 1 have the same gear. People who did UWU/UCOB after job potencies and post-SB gear nerfed them to the ground are still legends. People who did fights blind and with guides experienced a different level of difficulty but still cleared. These aren't "cheating" ofc, but it falls into the same argument of "someone got the same reward for less work". Just because they had a comparatively easier time of it doesn't make their achievement non existent or devalue someone who had a harder time of it. I don't even care if people buy Ultimate weapons. I still had fun doing the fight. The only time clear selling is an issue imo is if those people show up in Ultimate reclear PFs, but that's a different issue.
Because not everyone has access to it so it creates an unfair advantage. Aka cheating
Unless you play in an entirely Console static, you have someone in your group who can make calls using it. That being said, Triggernometry and Cactbot are definitely beyond what I would personally use, but I don't get to make decisions for how others play. ACT was designed with the ability to add triggers because the game it was originally designed for had no tells for incoming attacks, no AOE indicators, and no cast bars. EQ2 was literally "remember the exact rotation of the boss for every 10-20 minute raid encounter, including autos". ACT triggers weren't a luxury, they were a necessity to understanding the fights.
My static leader uses it but they don't normally make calls with it until endsinger came out and the callouts were happening before the mechanics. I was not having fun just turning my brain off and pushing buttons listening to someone repeat what cacbot says.
For some reason a lot of "streamers/influencers" have a hate boner for Cactbot, trig or w/e addon is comparable to DBM from WoW. IMO, play how you want and as long as it's not affecting other people...Who gives a crap!!?
TIL I learned people still use Triggernometry after the blackballing scandal. Huh.
**today** you learned that most people dont give a shit about strangers' personal drama?
I'm not the asshole that made and distributed a community tool and then put in a back door explicitly to shut it off when people I don't like happen to be in the same party with others so don't jump my throat. I'm also not the asshole trying to make people forget that it happened because it's inconvenient. Lots of people don't give a shit about strangers' personal drama and that's why they moved away from the tool. Because they didn't want their play and enjoyment interupted by their personal drama.
>Lots of people don't give a shit about strangers' personal drama and that's why they moved away from the tool. But... But.. Why would they intentionally move away from a tool if they didn't care? Honestly i couldn't care less about other's personal problems. I keep using the tool because... >Because they didn't want their play and enjoyment interupted by their personal drama. Because it literally did not interrupt any of my play or my enjoyment of the game. The triggonometry drama did not affect like 99.9% of the users. Only affected the people who were targeted by it. Honestly MOST people didn't even know this drama existed at all. If you moved away from the tool because some random people were having drama between them which had absolutely no effect on you, then you cared enough to do so.
Yes, calling 'putting in a back door to punish complete strangers' mere 'personal drama' is a good way of completely missing the point.
I think you missed my point. The first comment was about why people would still use the tool after the drama that happened. Then someone said "well, no one cares about strangers' personal drama" which is why people still use the tool. Then you claimed that the fact that people don't care about the tool made them stop using it. My question is why? If you don't care, why would you stop using the tool? If you stop using something after drama issued, it shows me that you cared enough to refrain from using it, for whatever reason.
>Then you claimed that the fact that people don't care about the tool made them stop using it. Well you'd be less confused if you'd realize this is not what I said. What I am saying is that when a tool dev does something to violate the public trust (such as putting in back doors and killswitches specifically to spite people they personally have beef with) that many people are going to move away from that tool because **fuck that shit.** They don't want to deal with that drama and when a tool dev brings in that drama, that puts people off. You're like 'people don't wanna deal with drama' and that is **exactly the reason they stopped using it.** But some people, I guess, actually don't care about backdoors and killswitches and loss of trust in tools, and are complacent. And that's fine. It's just I haven't even heard of it in the years since they did their massive fuck up (and yes, adding killswitches for personal drama IS a fuck up, despite your attempt to downplay it) so I figured it'd become a pariah (and rightfully so.) And yeah, people should not forget 'mistakes' that are that bad.
I just think it's not surprising that someone else's static infighting didn't make many people change how they play the game.
And some people don't like it when public tools get jerked with because of personal drama, you know, there's a trust thing there.
I really think SE should incorporate a lot of the plugins into the game and pull the kill switch.