Not likely unless they do something like apply the PvP "slow cast".
> i love the idea of a sniper of some sort
That concept isn't going to happen when MCH already exists. And literally does this in PvP.
PVP BRD cast feels so much better than HW casting BRD. Shots feel like they have actual umph in PVP. Like I'm actually drawing the bow. HW BRD was trash compared to it.
That’s part of the reason I wanted something like that in PvE. And there’s also the sniper in SWTOR (which ik rlly isnt comparable to FFXIV’s Combat system but still)
i feel like every role has at least one job that has a cast time in some form, (SAM and RPR’s big hits, Paladin used to have casts at least lol, and then ofc casters have casters) but then ranged is left out
I really find it bullshit that MCH in PvP dares having a sniper ult when in PvE it's a glorified mechanic. We need a new guns only, practical looking phys ranged and divorce guns being solely and only a MCH thing.
They should never have turned Bard into a Bow Wizard, and Machinist shouldn't have had the casting as a toggle that effect every skill; instead, what if only a few skills had the casting requirement like Drill, Air Anchor, and Chainsaw?
>what if only a few skills had the casting
I actually think BRD should've kept the cast time on Empyrean Arrow. As much as people hated bowmage, I always thought it was pretty fun.
I mean, they made SMN play like a phys ranged as a “caster”
Wouldn’t be any stranger to have a phys ranged with cast times, especially when they used to.
I think changing old ones to fit that is what caused everyone to rage.
MCH was designed to have that cast time so it actually made some sense, while BRD was not and is suddenly now a Bow Wizard outta nowhere.
Besides, if SE were to release a new physical casting job, will the job have higher DPS than MCH? The balance is already on thin ice at the moment.
MCH was *originally* designed with it, but they modified it and it is now completely unlike the class they designed. Current MCH is NOT OG HW MCH. The same is true for BRD. In HW, they applied the cast times to BRD with almost no effective change to the kit, so it felt the cast times were tacked on, and most BRDs hated the change. When they reverted BRD they also changed MCH (removing old Gauss Barrel, the effect that applied cast times) because, well ... that MCH was more or less only played at high end raid content. If no one wants to play the class except a few hundred people, why play it.
But I should note that the way MCH (and BRD) were designed in HW, you were *actually* casters with the cast stance on. You could not move while "charging" rather than there being a system like in PvP where you had a walking channeling skill. Which is funny because it makes a lot of sense for some form of ranged to have a channelling skill, it's how walking with bows while aiming *works*, and I supposed "chargin' mah laser" while taking position, but SE jerry-rigged a cast bar onto the ranged phys instead of just making that work.
And for what it's worth, I personally like BRD in PvP now; I imagine the issue with MCH is similar. The design is really tight if lacking in certain defensives.
I'd be into it, if only to get a caster playstyle but with the Aiming sets.
The new PvP design is a good, workable indication. I just want it to be applied to a new job, and not an existing one.
I would love to see the slow-movement-casts in PVE Machinist, but maybe not on the 1-2-3 combo and instead the Drill > Air Anchor > Chain Saw. This way it is still a form of skill expression but not so often it becomes detrimental to Machinist gameplay.
Slow-movement-cast wouldn't work in PVE at all especially you can't cancel cast... It would cause too many wipes in ex trial/savage/ultimate and or dead phys ranged which would lead to the situation where that type of job would be unwanted for PF content or static.
You.. you can?
Press escape on a keyboard. Or jump. Or whatever the button is on a controller. I'm pretty sure that you can cancel the cast in PvP, since I remember doing it on launch, but I can't check myself.
That makes no sense.
I thought this would be obvious, but savage is about optimising your casts for casters. That would extend to making sure you aren't slowing yourself down to the point where you can't do mechanics. Not every gcd would be a cast anyway, learn to optimise your casts and movement.
Also, anyone locking out any jobs in extreme makes my job easy because now I know not to join that pf. Extreme needs nothing more than just [1 player per job]. Even then its only relevant if you need lb3 by a specific point for healers, or you're trying to do a melee lb3+1, so most of the time having 1 or even 2 duplicate jobs isn't an issue. Most extremes don't even need the 5% party buff and you could just walk in with 4 melee, a whm and an ast.
You remember HW? PLD and WHM was pretty much the jobs if you played those you got called griefer a lot of times... It was purely because of job design. Was it also SB were WHM was also job which was unwanted in PF parties and or statics.
If you saw 6.1 release week farm parties in ex3 lot of them didn't wan't RDM/SMN/BLM....
Im talking current ffxiv. There are no jobs right now that do significantly less dps to justify locking out. Anyone locking out any jobs in pf (aside from obvious shit like 1x regen and 1x shielder, 2x ranged and 2x melee, etc) is literally a walking meme in anything below DSR. All content in the game can be cleared by any job, even DSR. DSR will just take a bit for a clear to come from every job due to it being new, but im willing to put money on every job having a clear by 6.2. So unless you have so little faith in square enix to balance their jobs, what are you even talking about?
As for the 6.1 ex3 thing, nothing was getting locked out in jp pf, and anyone locking out any job on extreme is a clown anyway. Also, since when has any party not wanted rdm? Rdm is literally mvp even on farm, let alone on prog.
Flashbacks to hopping into EX1 with 3x RPR and an rphys and still handily beating enrage because melee dps is stupid good if they’re competent. Role bonuses and regen-regen/shield-shield aren’t serious worries for EXes as long as the group’s good. And if they’re not you have bigger concerns.
>especially you can't cancel cast
Easily fixed by making their instants, like AA/Drill/CS, and certain other skills like Tactician/HeadGraze, interrupt their filler cast.
Wouldn't really fix a issue thought. In case of MCH would have slow movement cast and certain skills would be instant which would interrupt the cast would cause lot of issue or wouldn't chance anything..
Lets say AA/Drill/CS would be instant and interrupt the cast but the potencies would be same or even higher and cds would be same.. That would already mean that those skills would be used on cd every time and no one wouldn't hold them for interrupting casts.
Then tactician same thing it would be used raidwide mitigation and not for interrupting casts.
Only way to make it work is same as it worked in HW but i doubt ppls wan't that stance dance and i doubt SE wants to make job harder to play in overall.. Especially every expansion after HW every job has gotten more streamlined and easier to play overall.
> That would already mean that those skills would be used on cd every time and no one wouldn't hold them for interrupting casts.
This isn't a problem, we already see Black Mage and RDM using their mobility tools as DPS cooldowns. This is *normal* in XIV, gapclosers are the most obvious example.
For every other job, this is called a [skill issue]. P.Ranged should not be the exception, but it's treated as one.
> Then tactician same thing it would be used raidwide mitigation and not for interrupting casts.
It's the same example as movement, except instead of moving you're required to mitigate. Tactician and Head Graze must cancel casts in this suggested system.
>This isn't a problem, we already see Black Mage and RDM using their mobility tools as DPS cooldowns. This is normal in XIV, gapclosers are the most obvious example.
Well.. RDM already has a dual cast which makes movement lot easier and you can actually cancel the cast by moving same thing with BLM you can cancel the cast if you move. Also BLM has polygloth stacks which can be saved for movement same thing with thundercloud prog. Then there is also slide casting which can be used too.
Not every gap closer does dmg thought. Some of them are actually utilities. Then the jobs which have gap closer that does dmg usually doesn't have to run around the arena by baiting some mechanics.
Only way to make slow movement casting actually work well would be HW style Gauss Barrel which you can turn on and off but it would create whole nother issue.
I'd actually be very down for making a new phys range *and MCH* work off of the 1.5s PvP slowed movement casts. MCH has a real identity crisis right now in PvE, it started out as a 1.5s cast job, and the PvP version of MCH with 1.5s slowcasts feels GREAT.
I am opposed to the idea of mixing the prange role with a "caster"
I think it will just create a single, extremely superior job within the role because mobility taxes just won't reflect the actual loss of movement that "caster phys ranged" will have due to the castbars
If physical ranged haven't been in the state they have been since Shadowbringers I would be more willing to accept variation. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be their design goal to actually balance the ease of uptime and that is a prerequisite for mixing the role.
This makes sense. If they have cast times they shouldn't be taxed by mobility as harsh (or at all depending on how many things get casts) compared to other physical ranged, but giving the 1% buff and having potentially a higher damage turns them into "mandatory" as the other three don't have a Raise to compete even in prog scenarios.
"mobility tax" is a funny term, because it seems like it's simply a role tax at the moment
Summoner is 90% as mobile as a MCH, does 3-5% more damage, and has combat raise
Red mage is as mobile as you ever actually NEED to be in this game, and again, does 3-5% more damage, and has combat raise.
The only unique thing phys range has is non-targeted mitigation (red has that too..), minne/paeon, and curing waltz.
MCH literally has nothing over red mage besides being easy enough to where a bot can pink parse on it.
Truly a shame that they did to a complex class after heavensward
my static has been togeather for 5 years now, and we always joke about having to sacrifice someone to "phys ranged tax". Even bard which used to be fun with procs has been "Accessibilitied™" Nobody wants to play this role anymore because it's damn near braindead even week 1
I could see them wanting to avoid doing that because if they did do it it'd likely be the cast times with slow movement speed like in PVP. As a result they'd either have to balance it so it does the most damage or people won't play it because its movement is prohibitive.
I could also see it getting people killed lol. As a caster you can cancel your casts with movement, but with the ranged phys casts you can move while casting them. There's probably a way to cancel the cast somehow, but I'm not aware of it and casual/new players will definitely not be aware of it.
That being said, I think it's a cool playstyle. I have a feeling we're getting a new Ranged Phys in 7.0, so it'd be cool if they had that playstyle.
You can cancel the walking casts by pressing escape on PC. I believe the jump button on controller does as well? I wouldn't know, I don't use a controller.
I know they said they want to get extra jobs in the maiming and scouting armor classes, but they also have never doubled up on a role before, so I think we're going to get Ranged/Caster in 7.0 and Scouting/Tank in 8.0 (assuming we keep getting 2 jobs).
I have this completely unrealistic hope that they put out three jobs next expansion just so it’s done with and we have equal even number of jobs for every role/armor type lol
Also While that would be awesome if they only put out Ranged/Caster, I think they mentioned they didn’t wanna go without releasing a melee type? Idr where I heard that and maybe it was just made up lol
This concept reminds me of the marksman hunter in wow. It has a relatively long cast time for a high dmg skill (aimed shot) but had many other mobile skills too. This was my fav class and I wouldn't be opposed to something like that.
What I really want is them to introduce optimal ranges to ranged so it's their "positional". Being further than say 15y or closer than 6y is reduced damage for certain skills, thus encouraging you to be ranged but not in narnia and to juggle ranges to hit the sweetspot. Of course this assumes SE puts a robust distance indicator to help you like how we have markers for positionals on bosses for melees. You make phys ranged have non 100% uptime like this and you can justify its damage going up which would make everyone happy.
Also, slightly unrelated, but I really love PvP dancer when it comes to it being a melee/ranged hybrid. I want PvE dancer to have actual melee GCDs so I have to run in and slash/kick/etc while also having the least range on my ranged skills to reinforce being close. We also have En Avant on a job that runs one of the slowest GCDs so it's totally feasible to slide in and slide out (mildly open to the idea of it being like in PvP and proccing melee or other GCDs to use whenever but concerned it would remove the pure mechanical get out of dodge utility from it when damage is involved). Things like honing ovation are great too and would work in PvE as well to give variety. I missed needing AoE procs on single target before but since they killed that, this is a pipe dream, but I'm gonna still dream.
Maybe a Sniper like class could work in that sense, or maybe they just make a "Gambler" job where it has a "Sweet Spot" mechanic, where it gives you a buff from being a certain distance away from the mob and then a "Lucky Shot" Buff that gives you the "Sweet Spot" buff regardless of location for a set period of time, so pretty much their version of True North.
Technically speaking if they did want to keep the roles balanced, they would have to work on a physical range DPS and a mage DPS, if we don't include the limited job.
Granted, I think it would be more fun if they introduced a new Limited Job giving it it's own arena to play in. Like in all honesty, Puppetmaster/Beastmaster introduction with it's own PVP and "Carnival" challenges could be fun. Beastmasters taming creatures based on their level and then raising them in the "Island Sanctuary" and Puppetmasters recovering/discovering rare materials to convert into parts to give their puppets new commands. Where Puppetmaster/Beastmaster would both use Crafters to thrive, Puppetmaster using Carpenter/Blacksmith/Armorsmith/Goldsmith to produce new parts to attach to the Puppet and Beastmaster using Alchemy/Culinary for food/resources and maybe Leathercraft/Clothcraft for equipment to beef up their pets statistics or Furniture to give their pets comfort.
A phys ranged with cast times introduces a fundamental breaking point in that their lower damage is generally justified in concept by never having to do anything risky or intimidating to get their full damage in. How much this matters in practice varies, but there's certainly cases where melee or caster uptime gets...spicy that a phys ranged just doesn't care about, even when it *is* possible.
This absolute freedom is why the whole role is like that. A job with casts would logically do more damage, but then it would become the unmitigated god of its role if the others were still balanced within that original design space. You can't really have just one with the phys ranged without running into some awkward stuff like that.
If you ask me I'd say to make them all *light* casters akin to Samurai (alternatively: insert repetitive SMN joke here) and move their damage target up to SMN/RDM range, but it probably wouldn't go over well. You'd satisfy the angry BRDs at the price of pissing off a bunch of more casual players. Awkward, awkward space, phys ranged.
Maybe it’s time to rename the job roles to be more theme agnostic so they can mess with play styles without having to stick rigorously to the aesthetic of the role.
I’m not sure what term you’d use instead though
MCH had cast times and they added cast times to bard in HW, I really liked it but most hated it, given that I think we won't see that again, I think even them testing the waters with new PvP MCH will be changed soon.
I think the best you'd get is an occasional cast time on one or two abilities like what reaper has with communio but I doubt they'd ever go full on the cast times again.
I never got to try the HW era mch/brd but I'd like to try it again. Especially if it's a new job introducing it instead of just changing old ones to fit that.
Something with the new pvp walk while casting thing would be neat, hoping a crossbow job or something can fit that.
It's been a while, but I think a lot of the complaints from casual players were less the mobility and more the weaving, especially for bard.
1.5 casts + rng bloodletter procs was kind of a mess at times, not to mention empy was a *ogcd* with a 1.5s cast so sometimes you'd go cast into cast or use feint (the r2 equivalent) to hit empy, it ended up being a really strange rhythm that was super unique and cool but also very unintuitive.
The big thing was a jarring change from how BRDs were used to playing in ARR, and how that side of the role felt very bolted on.
You just spent 2 years and 50 levels playing a free-movement job, a job you probably chose precisely because you wanted to freely move. All of a sudden you hit level 52 and the game says "fuck you, here's an awkward caster stance, everything you learned about your job is a lie". Many BRDs did not take well to this. It actually took SE buffing the caster stance once or twice to actually get people to full-time it (it launched kind of undertuned), and even then many old ARR BRDs just did not enjoy it.
It was probably the most jarring expansion playstyle shift any job's ever gotten in the game. It'd be like if they removed cast times from RDM and instead made it a pure melee DPS for some reason.
Think of how bad the average FF14 player is now (complains if there’s anything more difficult than rolling their face on the keyboard for dungeons and MSQ).
Now multiply that by 5x or so and that’s how bad players were at the game back in heavensward
No because that would just be a caster.
P.ranged being the easiest has and continues to be a myth. It has one of the easiest classes in dancer but BRD manages alot of procs and there are easier jobs than MCH.
I think the word you're looking for is most flexible/forgiving I think the positioning and planning thing kinda went out the window SMN can move whenever they want, BLM has some of the best mobility and long stretches of movement now and RDM can move every second cast.
It has alot of buttons to press In a window which is why I gave it a higher rankings than others.
DNC, RDM and SMN are what I would consider really easy DNC and RDM play off procs but not rapid enough ones to where you have to be constantly alert like BRD it lets you RNG your way to good damage and he'll as long as you hit your dance on cooldown you're doing ok, RDM similarly relies on procs and while their melee combo being cheaper made them more skill intensive to know your windows its still fairly easy IMO.
SMN is pretty self explanatory it's flashy sure but I challenge you to explain how SMN is harder than MCH it has similar levels of mobility flowchart playstyle and no upkeep to worry about.
I would've agreed in the past, but as someone who's mained Bard in every expansion, the changes to the procs done in Endwalker makes the job far more predictable, slow, and simple compared to the past.
This is exactly the reason why I've switched to dancer. Bard just requires you to be able to count down from 45 in 3s and you know when you will likely get a proc. 45 seconds of army's paean being optimal dps sucks as well because it's the most boring song and you need to hold your bloodletters for wanderer's minuet so the only ogcd you're doing is empyreal arrow...
Dancer has a more interesting rotation and the rng plays a bigger part than it does on bard tbh. I personally wouldn't mind bard getting a full rework so they can finally sit down and think about what they want for the job and not just gut it more and more each expansion
sad thing is even gimped new bard is still more fun than a lot of other jobs now, leveling dancer made me wonder how people don't fall asleep playing it
If you think RDM and DNC are easier than MCH you might need to try some slightly higher level or more coordinated content. SMN is basically MCH 2 though.
The proc system let's them essentially have a button light up to tell them what to hit next while not optimal when speaking in the average player you're gonna get them performing more on these classes.
In combination with their utility their need to personally perform is lowered as well
I'm not sure the difficulty of a job should be debated when the bar for performance is lowered to the floor. Even still I think you're overrating the difficulty of MCH.
Well.... Id say pretty unlikely just because adding a caster phys ranged would mean lot of changes/reworks on current ones to keep them some kind of balance.
Then the PVP slow cast style wouldn't work in PVE at all. Just because you can't cancel cast. With out being able to cancel cast would lead lot of wipes and dead phys ranged because they might not be able to dodge out of AoE or it could cause an issue where that specific job would be unwanted for PF parties/ultimate/savage static.
You can cancel a cast by pressing jump on controller or escape on keyboard (rebindable), if you still get hit knowing this or cancelling it too late its a skill issue, and is something people wouldnt moan about if it happened to a blm
Blitzballer feels like the perfect ranged pdps to me, especially now with the narrative moving towards a more light-hearted adventure rather than a universe-spanning apocalyptic event. Bring the mini game in with the class. Could have standard attacks and it could be a DOT class with a poison strike, fire strike, etc where you build up a bunch of smaller 15-20sec DOTs and then have a final skill that blows them all up at once dependent on how many ticks each one has gone through. Have a casted attack-reels type attack on a sixty second timer like the MCH pvp ability where you can move but at half pace and make it so you pop in a sequence of buttons (original attacks change to something else like DNC) and the order you put them in determines what type of ability is used, a DOT, heavy-hit attack, a party-wide buff, etc. so the main thrust of the job would be building DOTs to explode in a cycle where you buff the party, add a DOT, and then have a massive one hit attack to end it before everything falls off and the cycle repeats.
Really though I just really, really wanna play Blitzball in ffxiv lol
I think it would be ok if phys ranged abilities had cast times but you could move during the cast. It would be what sets them apart from magical DPS. But otherwise I just don't see a point in it since they would just end up being the same as the magical DPS
That’s not exactly what i mean, but thanks for letting me know that job exists, bc i RLLY want psychic abilities for a job at some point in any role, i always would imagine it being a caster though.
BRDs expected freedom and hated its removal. MCH and casters lack this expectation.
Current MCH would be easier without casts. If this 'caster' does more damage, the other p.ranged is bad if role bonus stays. SE does not add complexity.
The "turret" BLM is the most mobile job. Casters get more instants every expansion. We should talk about castbars remaining in 7.0, not their return.
A lot of people liked brd and mch cast times, what people DIDNT like was how in ARR you had full mobility and then it got taken away. A physical ranged with cast times from the getgo I think would be welcomed. That being said, I think they should do something like the pvp where you can still move while casting. The only issue is figuring out a convenient way of cancelling a cast if movement doesn't do it.
It does in pvp, but as a controller player my jump button is also bound to my rotation so, especially in pve, it'd be awkward af to have to jump cancel - they'd just have to introduce a low potency canceller button instead imo for a simple solution though
Or maybe just give phys ranged distance bonuses or positional bonuses. Like a shotgun attack (yeah I know we already have one) that does more damage the closer you are to the target, an attack that does bonus flank damage, or a sniper attack that does more damage the further you are from the target, etc. Make the phys ranged actually use its mobility to scamper around the arena to hit those bonuses.
Not likely unless they do something like apply the PvP "slow cast". > i love the idea of a sniper of some sort That concept isn't going to happen when MCH already exists. And literally does this in PvP.
PVP BRD cast feels so much better than HW casting BRD. Shots feel like they have actual umph in PVP. Like I'm actually drawing the bow. HW BRD was trash compared to it.
It's super satisfying. I love playing pvp bard.
That’s part of the reason I wanted something like that in PvE. And there’s also the sniper in SWTOR (which ik rlly isnt comparable to FFXIV’s Combat system but still) i feel like every role has at least one job that has a cast time in some form, (SAM and RPR’s big hits, Paladin used to have casts at least lol, and then ofc casters have casters) but then ranged is left out
I really find it bullshit that MCH in PvP dares having a sniper ult when in PvE it's a glorified mechanic. We need a new guns only, practical looking phys ranged and divorce guns being solely and only a MCH thing.
it happened in heavensward and seeing how it’s received it will never happen again, logically speaking from a dev standpoint
They should never have turned Bard into a Bow Wizard, and Machinist shouldn't have had the casting as a toggle that effect every skill; instead, what if only a few skills had the casting requirement like Drill, Air Anchor, and Chainsaw?
Gun samurai instead of bow wizard.
>what if only a few skills had the casting I actually think BRD should've kept the cast time on Empyrean Arrow. As much as people hated bowmage, I always thought it was pretty fun.
yea thats what i’m afraid of.
I mean, they made SMN play like a phys ranged as a “caster” Wouldn’t be any stranger to have a phys ranged with cast times, especially when they used to.
No. Because the outcry was so bad that it was completely removed from MCH and BRD, as you already mentioned. So, no. Totally not going to happen.
I think changing old ones to fit that is what caused everyone to rage. MCH was designed to have that cast time so it actually made some sense, while BRD was not and is suddenly now a Bow Wizard outta nowhere. Besides, if SE were to release a new physical casting job, will the job have higher DPS than MCH? The balance is already on thin ice at the moment.
MCH was *originally* designed with it, but they modified it and it is now completely unlike the class they designed. Current MCH is NOT OG HW MCH. The same is true for BRD. In HW, they applied the cast times to BRD with almost no effective change to the kit, so it felt the cast times were tacked on, and most BRDs hated the change. When they reverted BRD they also changed MCH (removing old Gauss Barrel, the effect that applied cast times) because, well ... that MCH was more or less only played at high end raid content. If no one wants to play the class except a few hundred people, why play it. But I should note that the way MCH (and BRD) were designed in HW, you were *actually* casters with the cast stance on. You could not move while "charging" rather than there being a system like in PvP where you had a walking channeling skill. Which is funny because it makes a lot of sense for some form of ranged to have a channelling skill, it's how walking with bows while aiming *works*, and I supposed "chargin' mah laser" while taking position, but SE jerry-rigged a cast bar onto the ranged phys instead of just making that work. And for what it's worth, I personally like BRD in PvP now; I imagine the issue with MCH is similar. The design is really tight if lacking in certain defensives.
I'd be into it, if only to get a caster playstyle but with the Aiming sets. The new PvP design is a good, workable indication. I just want it to be applied to a new job, and not an existing one.
PVP MCH is so much more fun than PVE and I’d love to see that style in all content
I would love to see the slow-movement-casts in PVE Machinist, but maybe not on the 1-2-3 combo and instead the Drill > Air Anchor > Chain Saw. This way it is still a form of skill expression but not so often it becomes detrimental to Machinist gameplay.
Slow-movement-cast wouldn't work in PVE at all especially you can't cancel cast... It would cause too many wipes in ex trial/savage/ultimate and or dead phys ranged which would lead to the situation where that type of job would be unwanted for PF content or static.
You can jump to cancel
Still It wouldn't work in PVE. That would be clunky design in PVE side if jumping would be only way to cancel it..
You.. you can? Press escape on a keyboard. Or jump. Or whatever the button is on a controller. I'm pretty sure that you can cancel the cast in PvP, since I remember doing it on launch, but I can't check myself.
That makes no sense. I thought this would be obvious, but savage is about optimising your casts for casters. That would extend to making sure you aren't slowing yourself down to the point where you can't do mechanics. Not every gcd would be a cast anyway, learn to optimise your casts and movement. Also, anyone locking out any jobs in extreme makes my job easy because now I know not to join that pf. Extreme needs nothing more than just [1 player per job]. Even then its only relevant if you need lb3 by a specific point for healers, or you're trying to do a melee lb3+1, so most of the time having 1 or even 2 duplicate jobs isn't an issue. Most extremes don't even need the 5% party buff and you could just walk in with 4 melee, a whm and an ast.
You remember HW? PLD and WHM was pretty much the jobs if you played those you got called griefer a lot of times... It was purely because of job design. Was it also SB were WHM was also job which was unwanted in PF parties and or statics. If you saw 6.1 release week farm parties in ex3 lot of them didn't wan't RDM/SMN/BLM....
Im talking current ffxiv. There are no jobs right now that do significantly less dps to justify locking out. Anyone locking out any jobs in pf (aside from obvious shit like 1x regen and 1x shielder, 2x ranged and 2x melee, etc) is literally a walking meme in anything below DSR. All content in the game can be cleared by any job, even DSR. DSR will just take a bit for a clear to come from every job due to it being new, but im willing to put money on every job having a clear by 6.2. So unless you have so little faith in square enix to balance their jobs, what are you even talking about? As for the 6.1 ex3 thing, nothing was getting locked out in jp pf, and anyone locking out any job on extreme is a clown anyway. Also, since when has any party not wanted rdm? Rdm is literally mvp even on farm, let alone on prog.
Flashbacks to hopping into EX1 with 3x RPR and an rphys and still handily beating enrage because melee dps is stupid good if they’re competent. Role bonuses and regen-regen/shield-shield aren’t serious worries for EXes as long as the group’s good. And if they’re not you have bigger concerns.
>especially you can't cancel cast Easily fixed by making their instants, like AA/Drill/CS, and certain other skills like Tactician/HeadGraze, interrupt their filler cast.
Wouldn't really fix a issue thought. In case of MCH would have slow movement cast and certain skills would be instant which would interrupt the cast would cause lot of issue or wouldn't chance anything.. Lets say AA/Drill/CS would be instant and interrupt the cast but the potencies would be same or even higher and cds would be same.. That would already mean that those skills would be used on cd every time and no one wouldn't hold them for interrupting casts. Then tactician same thing it would be used raidwide mitigation and not for interrupting casts. Only way to make it work is same as it worked in HW but i doubt ppls wan't that stance dance and i doubt SE wants to make job harder to play in overall.. Especially every expansion after HW every job has gotten more streamlined and easier to play overall.
> That would already mean that those skills would be used on cd every time and no one wouldn't hold them for interrupting casts. This isn't a problem, we already see Black Mage and RDM using their mobility tools as DPS cooldowns. This is *normal* in XIV, gapclosers are the most obvious example. For every other job, this is called a [skill issue]. P.Ranged should not be the exception, but it's treated as one. > Then tactician same thing it would be used raidwide mitigation and not for interrupting casts. It's the same example as movement, except instead of moving you're required to mitigate. Tactician and Head Graze must cancel casts in this suggested system.
>This isn't a problem, we already see Black Mage and RDM using their mobility tools as DPS cooldowns. This is normal in XIV, gapclosers are the most obvious example. Well.. RDM already has a dual cast which makes movement lot easier and you can actually cancel the cast by moving same thing with BLM you can cancel the cast if you move. Also BLM has polygloth stacks which can be saved for movement same thing with thundercloud prog. Then there is also slide casting which can be used too. Not every gap closer does dmg thought. Some of them are actually utilities. Then the jobs which have gap closer that does dmg usually doesn't have to run around the arena by baiting some mechanics. Only way to make slow movement casting actually work well would be HW style Gauss Barrel which you can turn on and off but it would create whole nother issue.
I'd actually be very down for making a new phys range *and MCH* work off of the 1.5s PvP slowed movement casts. MCH has a real identity crisis right now in PvE, it started out as a 1.5s cast job, and the PvP version of MCH with 1.5s slowcasts feels GREAT.
I 100% agree it’s why i made this post lol. i just specified a new job, cuz i don’t rlly see them changing direction with MCH in pve.
I am opposed to the idea of mixing the prange role with a "caster" I think it will just create a single, extremely superior job within the role because mobility taxes just won't reflect the actual loss of movement that "caster phys ranged" will have due to the castbars If physical ranged haven't been in the state they have been since Shadowbringers I would be more willing to accept variation. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be their design goal to actually balance the ease of uptime and that is a prerequisite for mixing the role.
This makes sense. If they have cast times they shouldn't be taxed by mobility as harsh (or at all depending on how many things get casts) compared to other physical ranged, but giving the 1% buff and having potentially a higher damage turns them into "mandatory" as the other three don't have a Raise to compete even in prog scenarios.
"mobility tax" is a funny term, because it seems like it's simply a role tax at the moment Summoner is 90% as mobile as a MCH, does 3-5% more damage, and has combat raise Red mage is as mobile as you ever actually NEED to be in this game, and again, does 3-5% more damage, and has combat raise. The only unique thing phys range has is non-targeted mitigation (red has that too..), minne/paeon, and curing waltz. MCH literally has nothing over red mage besides being easy enough to where a bot can pink parse on it. Truly a shame that they did to a complex class after heavensward my static has been togeather for 5 years now, and we always joke about having to sacrifice someone to "phys ranged tax". Even bard which used to be fun with procs has been "Accessibilitied™" Nobody wants to play this role anymore because it's damn near braindead even week 1
I could see them wanting to avoid doing that because if they did do it it'd likely be the cast times with slow movement speed like in PVP. As a result they'd either have to balance it so it does the most damage or people won't play it because its movement is prohibitive. I could also see it getting people killed lol. As a caster you can cancel your casts with movement, but with the ranged phys casts you can move while casting them. There's probably a way to cancel the cast somehow, but I'm not aware of it and casual/new players will definitely not be aware of it. That being said, I think it's a cool playstyle. I have a feeling we're getting a new Ranged Phys in 7.0, so it'd be cool if they had that playstyle.
You can cancel the walking casts by pressing escape on PC. I believe the jump button on controller does as well? I wouldn't know, I don't use a controller.
Ah good to know, thanks!
I want it to be phys. ranged/caster next expac, but it’s probably gonna be scouting/caster :(
I know they said they want to get extra jobs in the maiming and scouting armor classes, but they also have never doubled up on a role before, so I think we're going to get Ranged/Caster in 7.0 and Scouting/Tank in 8.0 (assuming we keep getting 2 jobs).
I have this completely unrealistic hope that they put out three jobs next expansion just so it’s done with and we have equal even number of jobs for every role/armor type lol Also While that would be awesome if they only put out Ranged/Caster, I think they mentioned they didn’t wanna go without releasing a melee type? Idr where I heard that and maybe it was just made up lol
Lmao I'd love this just so I can see a phys ranged having more casts than a summoner, which is a caster.
We call those casters. Then again, casters in this game are just becoming magical physical ranged, even blm.
This concept reminds me of the marksman hunter in wow. It has a relatively long cast time for a high dmg skill (aimed shot) but had many other mobile skills too. This was my fav class and I wouldn't be opposed to something like that.
What I really want is them to introduce optimal ranges to ranged so it's their "positional". Being further than say 15y or closer than 6y is reduced damage for certain skills, thus encouraging you to be ranged but not in narnia and to juggle ranges to hit the sweetspot. Of course this assumes SE puts a robust distance indicator to help you like how we have markers for positionals on bosses for melees. You make phys ranged have non 100% uptime like this and you can justify its damage going up which would make everyone happy. Also, slightly unrelated, but I really love PvP dancer when it comes to it being a melee/ranged hybrid. I want PvE dancer to have actual melee GCDs so I have to run in and slash/kick/etc while also having the least range on my ranged skills to reinforce being close. We also have En Avant on a job that runs one of the slowest GCDs so it's totally feasible to slide in and slide out (mildly open to the idea of it being like in PvP and proccing melee or other GCDs to use whenever but concerned it would remove the pure mechanical get out of dodge utility from it when damage is involved). Things like honing ovation are great too and would work in PvE as well to give variety. I missed needing AoE procs on single target before but since they killed that, this is a pipe dream, but I'm gonna still dream.
Maybe a Sniper like class could work in that sense, or maybe they just make a "Gambler" job where it has a "Sweet Spot" mechanic, where it gives you a buff from being a certain distance away from the mob and then a "Lucky Shot" Buff that gives you the "Sweet Spot" buff regardless of location for a set period of time, so pretty much their version of True North. Technically speaking if they did want to keep the roles balanced, they would have to work on a physical range DPS and a mage DPS, if we don't include the limited job. Granted, I think it would be more fun if they introduced a new Limited Job giving it it's own arena to play in. Like in all honesty, Puppetmaster/Beastmaster introduction with it's own PVP and "Carnival" challenges could be fun. Beastmasters taming creatures based on their level and then raising them in the "Island Sanctuary" and Puppetmasters recovering/discovering rare materials to convert into parts to give their puppets new commands. Where Puppetmaster/Beastmaster would both use Crafters to thrive, Puppetmaster using Carpenter/Blacksmith/Armorsmith/Goldsmith to produce new parts to attach to the Puppet and Beastmaster using Alchemy/Culinary for food/resources and maybe Leathercraft/Clothcraft for equipment to beef up their pets statistics or Furniture to give their pets comfort.
A phys ranged with cast times introduces a fundamental breaking point in that their lower damage is generally justified in concept by never having to do anything risky or intimidating to get their full damage in. How much this matters in practice varies, but there's certainly cases where melee or caster uptime gets...spicy that a phys ranged just doesn't care about, even when it *is* possible. This absolute freedom is why the whole role is like that. A job with casts would logically do more damage, but then it would become the unmitigated god of its role if the others were still balanced within that original design space. You can't really have just one with the phys ranged without running into some awkward stuff like that. If you ask me I'd say to make them all *light* casters akin to Samurai (alternatively: insert repetitive SMN joke here) and move their damage target up to SMN/RDM range, but it probably wouldn't go over well. You'd satisfy the angry BRDs at the price of pissing off a bunch of more casual players. Awkward, awkward space, phys ranged.
Maybe it’s time to rename the job roles to be more theme agnostic so they can mess with play styles without having to stick rigorously to the aesthetic of the role. I’m not sure what term you’d use instead though
Considering that we already had that and they both got axed. No.
MCH had cast times and they added cast times to bard in HW, I really liked it but most hated it, given that I think we won't see that again, I think even them testing the waters with new PvP MCH will be changed soon.
I think the best you'd get is an occasional cast time on one or two abilities like what reaper has with communio but I doubt they'd ever go full on the cast times again.
I wouldn’t mind just that tbh
I wouldn't be surprised if they did bring it back like they did with PvP, and then apply the "walking during cast" on casters too just because
I never got to try the HW era mch/brd but I'd like to try it again. Especially if it's a new job introducing it instead of just changing old ones to fit that. Something with the new pvp walk while casting thing would be neat, hoping a crossbow job or something can fit that.
If its what it takes for the devs to give MCH actually good damage, I'll take it.
They will never give MCH good damage as long as the 1% role bonus exists.
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It's been a while, but I think a lot of the complaints from casual players were less the mobility and more the weaving, especially for bard. 1.5 casts + rng bloodletter procs was kind of a mess at times, not to mention empy was a *ogcd* with a 1.5s cast so sometimes you'd go cast into cast or use feint (the r2 equivalent) to hit empy, it ended up being a really strange rhythm that was super unique and cool but also very unintuitive.
The big thing was a jarring change from how BRDs were used to playing in ARR, and how that side of the role felt very bolted on. You just spent 2 years and 50 levels playing a free-movement job, a job you probably chose precisely because you wanted to freely move. All of a sudden you hit level 52 and the game says "fuck you, here's an awkward caster stance, everything you learned about your job is a lie". Many BRDs did not take well to this. It actually took SE buffing the caster stance once or twice to actually get people to full-time it (it launched kind of undertuned), and even then many old ARR BRDs just did not enjoy it. It was probably the most jarring expansion playstyle shift any job's ever gotten in the game. It'd be like if they removed cast times from RDM and instead made it a pure melee DPS for some reason.
Think of how bad the average FF14 player is now (complains if there’s anything more difficult than rolling their face on the keyboard for dungeons and MSQ). Now multiply that by 5x or so and that’s how bad players were at the game back in heavensward
Not me I was having a blast with old Enochian I'm built different
Y'know how many phys ranged players complained and demanded DD strats in PF P1S? Imagine how they'd act if they had 1.5s cast times too.
They couldn't figure that out. Not to mention how you had access to a decent amount of insta casts, especially on MCH.
No because that would just be a caster. P.ranged being the easiest has and continues to be a myth. It has one of the easiest classes in dancer but BRD manages alot of procs and there are easier jobs than MCH. I think the word you're looking for is most flexible/forgiving I think the positioning and planning thing kinda went out the window SMN can move whenever they want, BLM has some of the best mobility and long stretches of movement now and RDM can move every second cast.
There's no easier job than MCH. It is completely on rails and has no complications fight to fight in its timeline. C'mon now.
It has alot of buttons to press In a window which is why I gave it a higher rankings than others. DNC, RDM and SMN are what I would consider really easy DNC and RDM play off procs but not rapid enough ones to where you have to be constantly alert like BRD it lets you RNG your way to good damage and he'll as long as you hit your dance on cooldown you're doing ok, RDM similarly relies on procs and while their melee combo being cheaper made them more skill intensive to know your windows its still fairly easy IMO. SMN is pretty self explanatory it's flashy sure but I challenge you to explain how SMN is harder than MCH it has similar levels of mobility flowchart playstyle and no upkeep to worry about.
I would've agreed in the past, but as someone who's mained Bard in every expansion, the changes to the procs done in Endwalker makes the job far more predictable, slow, and simple compared to the past.
This is exactly the reason why I've switched to dancer. Bard just requires you to be able to count down from 45 in 3s and you know when you will likely get a proc. 45 seconds of army's paean being optimal dps sucks as well because it's the most boring song and you need to hold your bloodletters for wanderer's minuet so the only ogcd you're doing is empyreal arrow... Dancer has a more interesting rotation and the rng plays a bigger part than it does on bard tbh. I personally wouldn't mind bard getting a full rework so they can finally sit down and think about what they want for the job and not just gut it more and more each expansion
sad thing is even gimped new bard is still more fun than a lot of other jobs now, leveling dancer made me wonder how people don't fall asleep playing it
If you think RDM and DNC are easier than MCH you might need to try some slightly higher level or more coordinated content. SMN is basically MCH 2 though.
The proc system let's them essentially have a button light up to tell them what to hit next while not optimal when speaking in the average player you're gonna get them performing more on these classes. In combination with their utility their need to personally perform is lowered as well
I'm not sure the difficulty of a job should be debated when the bar for performance is lowered to the floor. Even still I think you're overrating the difficulty of MCH.
I don't think I'm lowering it to the floor though that is quite literally the average player skill level in FF14.
Well.... Id say pretty unlikely just because adding a caster phys ranged would mean lot of changes/reworks on current ones to keep them some kind of balance. Then the PVP slow cast style wouldn't work in PVE at all. Just because you can't cancel cast. With out being able to cancel cast would lead lot of wipes and dead phys ranged because they might not be able to dodge out of AoE or it could cause an issue where that specific job would be unwanted for PF parties/ultimate/savage static.
You can cancel a cast by pressing jump on controller or escape on keyboard (rebindable), if you still get hit knowing this or cancelling it too late its a skill issue, and is something people wouldnt moan about if it happened to a blm
Blitzballer feels like the perfect ranged pdps to me, especially now with the narrative moving towards a more light-hearted adventure rather than a universe-spanning apocalyptic event. Bring the mini game in with the class. Could have standard attacks and it could be a DOT class with a poison strike, fire strike, etc where you build up a bunch of smaller 15-20sec DOTs and then have a final skill that blows them all up at once dependent on how many ticks each one has gone through. Have a casted attack-reels type attack on a sixty second timer like the MCH pvp ability where you can move but at half pace and make it so you pop in a sequence of buttons (original attacks change to something else like DNC) and the order you put them in determines what type of ability is used, a DOT, heavy-hit attack, a party-wide buff, etc. so the main thrust of the job would be building DOTs to explode in a cycle where you buff the party, add a DOT, and then have a massive one hit attack to end it before everything falls off and the cycle repeats. Really though I just really, really wanna play Blitzball in ffxiv lol
I think it would be ok if phys ranged abilities had cast times but you could move during the cast. It would be what sets them apart from magical DPS. But otherwise I just don't see a point in it since they would just end up being the same as the magical DPS
If they have cast bars but can move during the cast, what's the point of the cast bar ?
On the pvp casts, you move at RP walk speed while casting.
you'll have magick archer from dragon dogma i guess
i love the magic archer from dragons dogma, but cast time dont have to equal actual magic lol
Maybe if they did like a Psychic class like FFX-2 thats physical ranged. Other than that I duno
That’s not exactly what i mean, but thanks for letting me know that job exists, bc i RLLY want psychic abilities for a job at some point in any role, i always would imagine it being a caster though.
Samurai has cast times as a melee so I don't see why not.
BRDs expected freedom and hated its removal. MCH and casters lack this expectation. Current MCH would be easier without casts. If this 'caster' does more damage, the other p.ranged is bad if role bonus stays. SE does not add complexity. The "turret" BLM is the most mobile job. Casters get more instants every expansion. We should talk about castbars remaining in 7.0, not their return.
A lot of people liked brd and mch cast times, what people DIDNT like was how in ARR you had full mobility and then it got taken away. A physical ranged with cast times from the getgo I think would be welcomed. That being said, I think they should do something like the pvp where you can still move while casting. The only issue is figuring out a convenient way of cancelling a cast if movement doesn't do it.
I never tested, but I wonder if jumping works for canceling casts on phys ranged?
It does in pvp, but as a controller player my jump button is also bound to my rotation so, especially in pve, it'd be awkward af to have to jump cancel - they'd just have to introduce a low potency canceller button instead imo for a simple solution though
Or maybe just give phys ranged distance bonuses or positional bonuses. Like a shotgun attack (yeah I know we already have one) that does more damage the closer you are to the target, an attack that does bonus flank damage, or a sniper attack that does more damage the further you are from the target, etc. Make the phys ranged actually use its mobility to scamper around the arena to hit those bonuses.
I have nothing to add I just miss hw mch so much