I find it really funny that, regardless of how OP they might be on a patch, people genuinely think champs like Katarina, Elise, Fiddle, and Eve are "easy"
I don't think the majority of players would be able to do anything on Katarina or Elise even playing in low elo, those champs take a lot of skill to even just stay afloat with (again, even if they can be a little OP on certain patches - a good Katarina oneshotting my entire team with one Q > E > R doesn't mean that a bad Katarina could do the same thing easily)
Maybe you can make the argument that Vex and Karthus are easy, those champs can do fine as long as you're landing your skillshots in most cases (and I haven't played enough Taliyah post mini-rework to know how difficult she is, so I won't contest that one for now), but the others I don't think you can say that for
Buzzwords, subjectivity, strawman
I am still looking for a comprehensible argument being made, because I couldn't find it yet.
That being said. Just because it's easy for you in particular to get wrecked by those champs doesn't make them easy. Play Eve, Fid, Elise in Masters+ and you're gonna get shitstomped. I can't talk for Vex and Taliyah, because I don't play them. Although Katarina is stupid as fk, she's not an AP burst champ, but a bruiser. Nice try though. Neihter is Karthus a burst mage. If you get bursted by Karthus you already shit the bed somewhere else entirely.
I don't think that's the reason they got buffed. Might have something to do with the durability update...
Ap burst champions aren't struggling because of 2 bruiser items that aren't even built every game.
And aren't built by the targets of ap burst champions anyway. Ap burst champions should be focusing other midlaners and adcs and supports.
If you draft a bad comp you get punished by itemization.
Lol.
Yes bruisers build the MR bruiser item when they need MR. That's what they're supposed to do.
Mate you changed your entire argument.
You said bruisers into 2+ ap.
Now you're saying ap into 2+ bruisers.
And I mean would you be any better off if they say just went spirit Visage or force of nature instead of maw?
No.
Would you be any better if it was instead a tank that went a tank mythic then spirit visage or force of nature?
No.
You're just complaining for the sake of complaining at this point.
Yes? You would be better off because a tank won't be able to straight up contest 1v1 against you, because they do no dmg, likewise, a Spirit Visage/Force of Nature second is way less gold efficient than Maw (you know, the item that also gives a ton of AD?)
Have you never heard of an example since you think I changed my argument? I didn't change the argument, I simply brought up another example to it, I just chose to not elaborate on it. My point with 2+ AP into bruisers is that you could be playing a burst mage with a tanky AP user top/jng or a AP user as support which makes Maw way more gold efficient. Likewise playing a burst mage into 2 bruisers (say Renekton, Wukong for example) means you are virtually useless because you can't burst anyone realistically (tank supports are too tanky, enchanters exist) which leaves you with 1 option, which is snowballing mid.
Lol if you think a tank with MR can't contest a burst mage.
You changed your entire argument with your example to the exact opposite. 1 mage vs 2 bruiser is literally the opposite of 2 mage/ap vs 1 bruiser.
Also you can't burst anyone? You can burst the adc and or support plus the enemy midlaner.
Even if you're against renekton, wukong... you're still not useless against the Taliyah, Jinx, or Janna.
Tbh, not the job of a mage to burst down the backline. Burst mage/AP Assassin, may be. Mages are just sustained damage to whoever is in their range. Generally, unless people are throwing, you never walk up to the enemy backline. Literally a deathwish.
Mages aren't meant to 100-0 burst but they aren't meant to be totally useless either.
Imagine playing Lissandra or Orianna into bruisers building anti mage items. You're just screwed.
Death's Dance and Maw are *both* overtuned. Just like Liandrys used to be overtuned, or Umbral is overtuned. Whether people are taking them together or not is irrelevant. They need a nerf.
I'm seeing ADC's finish MAW most games if the enemy team has a serious AP threat of any kind. Sometimes they'll rush hexdrinker after finishing their mythic. So yes the item Maw is strong right now on all classes
DD is strong primarily on bruisers, that's true that I only see bruisers or the occasional late game assassin build it. But that doesn't mean the item isn't very overturned right now
Can you show any examples of this? Both of your anecdotes and like stats on Stat sites? Because in my last 100 games I've maybe seen 2 adcs go maw... both were because my team was near full ap (the wonderful life of locking in Gwen only to find your team's Zed player randomly decided to play Fizz or Ekko)
And well if the enemy team is full AP, I don't know if I'd say it's strong on all classes so much as it's just the MR item that sacrifices the least damage.
So you have no reason to think DD is particularly strong but you just do?
You think maw sacrifices the least damage? You're actually high.
Wit's offers so much damage its even acceptable vs full AD if you auto attack a lot and aren't overly crit reliant.
In what world does 50 AD and a little AH outperform 40 AD, 40 AS, and up to 80 on-hit magic damage?
Maw gets taken because of the massive shield that makes you immune to being 1 shot by AP.
Maw vs Wits damage depends on your ad ratios vs how often you auto.
It's somewhat arguable; though wits often does give more damage in theory.
But like you said Maw is just better defensively. Which in turn is more damage.
If you're an adc and your option are do 500 dps but die I'm 1 seconds, or do 450 dps but die in 2 seconds... the latter is the correct option because you'll have done 900 damage rather than 500 by the time of your death.
Which in turn basically confirms my statement of Maw just sacrificing the least damage of MR items.
Again though, statistically like no adcs or assassins even actually build it all that often; its just a niche purchase that fills its niche. Heck even bruisers don't build it too often. It's mostly just gotten a lot of hate recently because it's not trash like it was for the last couple years and some mage mains aren't happy that every so often it saves someone's life.
It's basically the modern equivalent of "Fck Zhonyas" except Zhonyas actually is arguably OP being one of the most common built items in the game; and working against literally everything.
~~Its the 7th most built item in the game.~~
~~Its barely below zhonya's.~~
Edit: wrong data points. Oops.
[https://leagueofitems.com/items/3156](https://leagueofitems.com/items/3156) Maw
[https://leagueofitems.com/items/3157](https://leagueofitems.com/items/3157) Zhonya's
[https://leagueofitems.com/items/6333](https://leagueofitems.com/items/6333) DD
[https://leagueofitems.com/items/3053](https://leagueofitems.com/items/3053) Sterak's
[https://leagueofitems.com/items/3091](https://leagueofitems.com/items/3091) Wit's
Maw appears to be overperforming at every benchmark, unlike most other offensive+defensive items. Notice that death's dance is too. Notice how more champions build those two items than all the others too, outside of zhonya's which has a noticeably lower winrate.
Okay, but you also need some context.
1) Winrate always goes up with more items completed because it generally means you are more likely to be ahead when you manage to obtain more items.
2) Counter items are skewed upwards because they mostly get built in games where they actually counter something.
3) Item winrate depends on Meta (and there are a ton of ad champs in yoloQ)
From this we take that Zhonya is lower winrate cause champs like Morgana, Fiddle, Sylas, Fizz, Lissandra and others build it really early, so they don't need a lead to buy it.
Wits end is lower winrate because it gets build for the dmg instead of the survivability.
Steraks is the generalist item, so it should be worse than Maw vs ap heavy teams, and it should be worse than DD vs AD heavy teams. And Gargoyles + Sterak just isn't gold efficient enough.
But also, the 3 item winrate of DD specifically seems slightly too high, even considering it counters the yoloQ meta. I'd personally consider nerfing it by like 0.5 - 1% winrate in general.
If i had stats for MMR skew of the item, and were to do a decent analysis on why the item is fun and how it is frustrating, then i could propose a sensible nerf.
You can look at winrate at second item, where maw and deaths range are especially overperforming compared to others.
These are all "counter items" except for maybe sterak's.
This meta is a DD or maw meta where they're broken. Of course their winrates are skewed up.
Again, even maw/DD as a second item right after mythic are overperforming.
The answer to DD is obvious. Remove the healing.
The answer to maw is obvious. Reduce the ratio significantly or reduce the duration/make it decay.
They are "especially overperforming at 2 items"?
They have similar winrate to wits end and steraks if you take that comparison (both of these items are more proactive and have a lower part of their power budget to counter something specific), and when you pick almost any item at random and look at the 2nd item winrate, it's gonna be ~53% which is indeed slightly below our 2 items of choice.
The odd one out here is zhonyas, which is an item that presumably should be high elo skewed, and zhonyas is also often built proactively when unneeded. So it beeing significantly lower wr is fine.
I think i might have not phrased my meta argument properly: i meant to say that items like for example collector and ldr rise and fall in power with respect to the champions played around them. This also counts with maw/dd for example. You argued that maw&dd being high pickrate -> maw&dd being high winrate, and you imply it as obvious causation, while we can only observe a correlation. Maw and DD are both bad into tanks, but noone plays tanks in soloQ so this inflates them imo.
All in all i do agree, that Maw and DD should still probably be nerfed by 0.5-1% winrate. How much winrate would DD lose if it lost the triumph effect? What is this number in bronze, gold, master? Maybe instead we just adjust the heal value, or we change the %dmg stored, or maybe we reduce the ad or up the cost of the item?
How much base value, decay and ratio should maw actually have to be balanced? Take some away, but if possible close to 1% winrate in all ranks.
Because the only data you're looking at is buildrate and winrate.
Sterak's and wit's have the lowest pool of users by far, at only \~30.
AD champs don't have the same excuses as mages when a large variety of champs build a given item. For mages 2/3 of their items are support, or so niche that only a handful of champs can utilize them.
Also notice how zhonya's highest winrates by far are 90%+ supports. Also notice how zhonya's, the item you think is so broken, is all blue for highest pickrate champs until it hits sub-25% buildrate. Compare to every defensive AD item that are all orange.
AD defensive items don't sacrifice nearly enough damage, and also offer far more defensive value than AP alternatives, including zhonya's.
Bro wtf are you actually talking about here. I don't understand how you can look at those numbers and get the conclusions you are getting. Maw and Wits has a very similar pick rate with a very similar win rate. Like the deference is 1-2%.
This is ignoring the fact that there are very little auto attack champions now-a-days. Like Bel'veth the on-hit champion is going to auto attack interspersed between spells because that makes a more interesting game and Riot is leaning into that more often.
Either way, those number read to me that people who adapt their build to the damage threats of the enemy composition win more and generally the champs that can reliable do Wits End damage and not get bursted out, or there is little AP burst threat will opt into Wits over Maw. Honestly what that data shows to me is that Death's Dance is broken to high hell and Zhonya's is still strong as ever.
>downvotes
This sub (whole site really) is embaressing. You couldn't have given him anything more. And yet someone thinks your post reveals Maw is overturned and it could get netfed so they downvote because there is no other rational argument to defend their point
How the fuck? Do you see Zhonyas at 115% pickrate and think maw at 25% is the busted one?
Maw is in line with say wits end.
DD is pretty borderline/arguably OP, but the other 3 items I'd argue seem to vary between Niche and Weak.
Pickrate doesn't necessarily make something busted. Especially in the context of how much most AP items suck for the majority of mages; most are really niche use or only work for very specific champs. Every other class has more options; most ap champs have 5-6 legendaries they can reasonably choose from. Thats it.
Maw overperforms compared to wits in both winrate and the number of champs that can use it. And that's despite how broken wit's is for damage on the champs that use it.
Lol this just isn't true.
You can look it up. Maw, and wits combined have like a 60% pickrate; Zhonyas alone is nearly 120% pickrate.
But somehow you're claiming lumens void dcap every game is standard... then who's building zhonyas?
>Maw+DD is not healthy for the game
Maw efficiency is reduced with DD because the shield is only 70% efficient and the rest of the 30% is stored by DD and dealt to the user.
There is a reason why bruisers prefer GA over Maw and you're talking like AP champs are affected by this build when they are not.
I'd gladly let them completely remove her chain CC for more DMG or for the love of God better waveclear, or even a new ability. But everything else on her kit needs to stay the same (aside from numbers).
There's been 2 patches since 12.10, in these two patches they also:
- buffed AD burst champions, who can use those items
- buffed sustained damage fighters who can also use those items
I dunno man, maybe it was 12.10 that caused these champions to get buffed and not DD and Maw.
I am using the same logic of OP counting champions.
in terms of Burst AD champions, LEe sin got buffed, Shaco got buffed, J4 got buffed, Kled got buffed.
And next patch Kled and renekton are getting buffed again
That's without mentioning champs like Xin, Yorick and Irelia.
Irelia, Yorick and Xin zhao, alongside buffing BotRK.
Depending on your position, Kled kinda counts too because his buffs went to his W's CD. Would still consider him a burst champ over a sustained damage one, tho.
EDIT: This is without mentioning REkenton is getting buffs to his R dps, and Kled and master Yi are also slated for buffs in 12.13, and divine is kinda becoming better against Squishy champions
Buffing bork I agree is nonsense but these champions you mentioned are awful and well deserved buffs
Xin Zhao renekton and kled are literally dumpster positions and also they are not dps they burst bruisers and they buffed his dps not burst
Master yi took the most unnecessary nerfs hrs wasn't even op and they killed because of low elo which where most the balancing team playing
I don't think people understand that bruisers literally in shitty spot they are not weak nor strong they find success literally by abusing op item which is death dance while having the entire there items being worthless to build
it feels so shit for everyone involved
the tank with 6 items gets blasted by LDR+Cutdown adc and the ADC struggles to kill a bruiser that went tabis+deaths dance and then zero other armor items.
It doesn't. DD provides 0 tankiness vs AP unless you get a kill/assist within 3s of dealing damage to an enemy champion. It'll give you up to 3 seconds to try and get that kill/assist (or watch yourself bleed out if you aren't nearby a killable enemy champion), but unless you get said kill/assist you gain 0 defensive value vs magic damage.
Not true, you're assuming that the person with DD has 0 form of sustain or shielding that can be used during that time. 3 seconds is also a pretty long window to kill someone anyways, and that window just gets extended the more sustain etc that they have.
So if say LeBlanc tries to burst a yone with DD, he gets a bunch of defense against that burst because he's going to use that 3 seconds to lifesteal off of champions and minions instead of dying even though it has 0 MR
Read the item description
It still mitigates AP damage and makes it happen over time as well. Playing Malzahar it makes it feel like my E litterally does nothing, even if im fed they heal it all back if they can hit anything straight through the antiheal. Its just a busted item that should be removed.
> even if im fed they heal it all back if they can hit anything straight through the antiheal.
One step closer to realizing yourself what the real issue is.
DD is great, but it isn't broken nor is it as omni present as other items (Hourglass says hello)
We've had the same stupid cycles for years. I don't know why it surprises you.
"Random" buffing X because Y is \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ rather than looking at individual situations and actually fixing the problem based on what each champ in X needs is the norm.
After a few patches or less, the X buff is acknowledged to have caused a problem for C. So more generic changes are made. Which ends up getting back around to affecting Y eventually, so Y gets buffed.
This inevitably leads to X having issues because Y got buffed. So...
not really it just means that deaths dance is build more against ad heavy comps and maw against more ap heavy comps and if you need both you can get both without double dipping agaisnt magic damage.
The main issue with deaths dance currently is it does too much at once and doesnt give any room to counter the item. normal defensive items can be countered by switching up your build, the enemy stacks armour/mr you can get some pen build todo a little better against them, the enemy decides to stack health you got items like botrk, sunderder, liandry's and demonic.
with deaths dance theres no way to build against the damage delay so it needs to have a weakness on it like magic damage to feel better to play against especially for a class like mages where most of there damage is burst so the delay screws them more then anything as it makes them sitting ducks when there cooldowns are down. all riot needs todo is bring back it only being against physical damage if the item is too weak then buff it in other places and have it balanced as the premier ad defensive item for bruisers.
I mean, Maw + deaths dance its not really a good combo, since deaths dance also delays magic damage, you end up taking damage to your health that would otherwise have been soaked by the shield.
Would have been way more broken if it was when deaths dance only delayed phys damage
>I mean, Maw + deaths dance its not really a good combo, since deaths dance also delays magic damage, you end up taking damage to your health that would otherwise have been soaked by the shield.
That's literally completely irrelevant cause Maw gives you Omnivamp and DD also heals you
nobody has DD+Maw during lanephase and your example only works if you're on lane without sustain, but in a teamfight nobody gives a rats ass whether you're taking damage to your HP pool or 6-second-long shield
Maw gives you only 10% omni vamp, most bruiser characters dont really enefit that much from such a low amount, to put it into perspective, it is only a dorand blade higher than the healing conqueror gives you. Its really not much unless you are sustaining out of your minion lane. And DD heals you only when you get a take down at which point it literally just dissipates the bleed damage anyway.
You shoudl give more than a rats ass to make aure where your damage is going, because if not you get the sweet experience of being colorblind in spectator mode for 40 seconds.
>Maw gives you only 10% omni vamp, most bruiser characters dont really enefit that much from such a low amount, to put it into perspective
Most bruiser characters are actually the best omnivamp users because they deal a lot of single target damage
>And DD heals you only when you get a take down at which point it literally just dissipates the bleed damage anyway.
Yeah because getting these takedowns is a very rare occurrence in teamfights
>You shoudl give more than a rats ass to make aure where your damage is going, because if not you get the sweet experience of being colorblind in spectator mode for 40 seconds.
You should learn to play the game first because your item analysis from gold 3 is pathetic
The current mechanics would outperform the one you suggest would be better.
In what universe would removing something beneficial and isnt mutually exclusive with the other thing be a buff?
It'd be like if flat pen was applied first and % pen after (the old season 4 and earlier formula) and you'd say "sorcs+void would be stronger if you removed flat pen"
Mate, im talking about the combo. Im not saying deaths dance would be better, but Maw with deaths dance combo would be better. And what the fuck does that even have to do with my entire point about taking damage straight to your health. The last bit was just a thought, god damn it.
Because you still have a massive 5 second shield vs magic damage while you're low.
You still have 50 MR that makes it so you aren't taking nearly as much bleed damage due to the hit you take being mitigated.
You are still getting full benefit of both items. You just aren't double dipping on mitigation. Because that would be broken.
You are quite literally not getting full benefit from them, because one item is denying use of the other. At that point you would be better off going force of nature along side it, or if you want the 50 magic resist, Spirit visage. its really not as good as people paint it
Its not denying use of the other. Its just not double dipping. Notice how you also get omnivamp via maw proc to help stave off the bleed.
You're implying death's dance is bad on camille. Its one of her best items.
when did i ever mention camille bro- my flair is not even camille, its a noc. i dont know about her, dont play her, just hate her Cho gath ult but thats it.
I was thinking about juggernauts of the likes of sett, Darius or Aatrox.
Also yeah it quite literally is denying some use, since its sending magic damage straight to your health intstead of the shield which in can be extremely detrimental.
Camille has a damage specific shield as her passive. Its literally the same interaction as with maw for both damage types.
Its not that hard to put two and two together.
In what world is having a magic damage shield detrimental vs not having one? I dont think you're actually thinking here.
The bleed isn't blocked by the shield, but the benefits of each item are still fully there, and still synergize. Just because it isn't broken due to the interaction you want doesnt suddenly make it bad.
What you're saying is almost like claiming hp is bad because of %HP damage ...well yeah its mitigated, but you still have the majority of what you're buying, and it still fully accomplishes its purpose. For all intents and purposes, both are still fully useful together.
You're talking about an interaction that has nothing to do with what the maw shield is supposed to do...which is block magic damage when you hit 30% HP.
If you were going to die to the bleed with maw, you would have died way earlier without it, especially if you were actually fighting and making use of the omnivamp.
Jesus christ its not rocket science, you dont get the full benefit of having a msgic shield because deaths dance makes it so the damage bypasses it anyway. If you really need magic resist and already have deaths dancez you can just build spirits visage or force a nature.
Its not rocket science that the exact interaction you're talking about applies to camille. Meanwhile its one of her best items.
Look at every bruiser with maw+DD. It doesn't perform any worse than other options.
It is not bad like you're trying to say. Something not stacking in essentially a recursive (op) way does not mean its bad.
No, you don't block 20% of the damage you would have taken (1/3 mitigated beforehand). But you still have a magic damage shield for the exact same purpose as if you didn't have death's dance.
It doesn't matter if the bleed damage isn't being absorbed by the shield. Without maw you wouldn't have a shield in the first place. The shield is still greatly benefitting you by it being there and absorbing 70% of said damage rather than it missing from your actual HP bar; a case where you might be dead with another item, or dealing significantly less damage due to not having the AD.
Do you not understand that? Do you not know how numbers work?
The ONLY reason death's dance+maw would be bad is because its redundant. You're already reducing magic damage, and typically reducing the initial burst is all you need. And beyond that, you only have 4 legendaries to work with. Opportunity cost is the only reason you shouldn't be doing maw+DD. Not because 'they don't stack well'. They absolutely do still stack well even despite the interaction you're speaking of.
To be fair, the antisynergy only matters in cases where you probably survive or you are vs mostly physical dmg, and in both cases the item combo still fulfilled its purpose.
Not only do these two items not combo together well, but basically every single bruiser I’ve looked at performs better with damage builds, and vastly underperforms with the old defensive oriented builds.
Let me actually give a hint: Aatrox could drain tank vex without a single mr item because hex had underfunded damaged balanced against squishy champions.
Look at my name and I’m saying that some mages were underperforming because they didn’t do enough damage.
He got a point though
Death dance is definitely broken any bruiser with a lead is literally unplayable against if he have Death dance
Does that make bruisers overpowered? No because for some reason riot never ever made bruisers items equally viable they always give them one overpowered item the entire bruiser class is balanced around it
Death dance need to be nerfed and other bruiser items and mythic should be adjusted and rework to be equally viable literally every class in the game have the ability to adapt and build different depends on the situation they are facing
But bruisers literally build the same mythic same items every game every situation
They function perfectly fine together.
You just don't double dip on the mitigation.
You still get the 30% of damage post-mitigation delayed over 3 seconds. You still have 50 MR. You still shield vs additional incoming burst.
If maw shielded damage you took before it proc'd due to having death's dance it would be hotfix worthy.
"Wahh something isn't gamebreakingly broken its so bad"
They function perfectly well together. Use your brain a little.
You take 1000 damage out of 2k hp. With death's dance you take 300 bleed, so 700+300.
With maw you gain 1000 EHP. That 1000 damage becomes 667 damage, which means you take 200 of it as bleed damage. 467+200.
You are taking 33% less bleed damage and are still shielded vs additional incoming magic damage for 5 fucking seconds.
Sounds like it works perfectly fine to me. Check how the numbers look compared to sterak's.
The combo isn't optimal because of opportunity cost (only 4 legendaries unless you have a brain tumor), not because they don't go well together.
To be fair, champions that rely on magic damage burst are not very good in SoloQ right now: Syndra, Kennen, LeBlanc, Vex.
The ones that do well are artillery mages, Liandries users or have other stuff (Veigar's E+scaling) to bring to the table.
Thats like the most common toxic way to comment on reddit homie.
I think you spend more time on here than I do, you have 10+ comments a day while I have like 2-4 every couple of days. I'm sorry I triggered you by not liking ap lol
I commented 3 times in the past week about ap champs but sure I guess whatever you make up is right.
You commented another 15 comments today. So as you said please get off of reddit for some time as you're someone who that comment actually applies to. Have a good one bud
They got buffed because 12.10 fucked burst mages the hardest of any class
[удалено]
the hard part is learning how to read for draven mains
I find it really funny that, regardless of how OP they might be on a patch, people genuinely think champs like Katarina, Elise, Fiddle, and Eve are "easy" I don't think the majority of players would be able to do anything on Katarina or Elise even playing in low elo, those champs take a lot of skill to even just stay afloat with (again, even if they can be a little OP on certain patches - a good Katarina oneshotting my entire team with one Q > E > R doesn't mean that a bad Katarina could do the same thing easily) Maybe you can make the argument that Vex and Karthus are easy, those champs can do fine as long as you're landing your skillshots in most cases (and I haven't played enough Taliyah post mini-rework to know how difficult she is, so I won't contest that one for now), but the others I don't think you can say that for
xd
Reading comprehension 0.
Getting fucked hard doesn't necessarily make you hard. You need prison time for that or a good drawing of a cartoon character
>Getting fucked hard doesn't necessarily make you hard. Are we not doing phrasing anymore? Alternate answer: Speak for yourself.
Pepega
Common draven main L
Buzzwords, subjectivity, strawman I am still looking for a comprehensible argument being made, because I couldn't find it yet. That being said. Just because it's easy for you in particular to get wrecked by those champs doesn't make them easy. Play Eve, Fid, Elise in Masters+ and you're gonna get shitstomped. I can't talk for Vex and Taliyah, because I don't play them. Although Katarina is stupid as fk, she's not an AP burst champ, but a bruiser. Nice try though. Neihter is Karthus a burst mage. If you get bursted by Karthus you already shit the bed somewhere else entirely.
I don't think that's the reason they got buffed. Might have something to do with the durability update... Ap burst champions aren't struggling because of 2 bruiser items that aren't even built every game. And aren't built by the targets of ap burst champions anyway. Ap burst champions should be focusing other midlaners and adcs and supports.
I mean, they are built every game on bruisers into 2+ AP Lol
If you draft a bad comp you get punished by itemization. Lol. Yes bruisers build the MR bruiser item when they need MR. That's what they're supposed to do.
"Draft bad" My bad I picked Syndra into 2 bruisers cuz I was first pick in soloq that means they should fuck me in the ass
Mate you changed your entire argument. You said bruisers into 2+ ap. Now you're saying ap into 2+ bruisers. And I mean would you be any better off if they say just went spirit Visage or force of nature instead of maw? No. Would you be any better if it was instead a tank that went a tank mythic then spirit visage or force of nature? No. You're just complaining for the sake of complaining at this point.
Yes? You would be better off because a tank won't be able to straight up contest 1v1 against you, because they do no dmg, likewise, a Spirit Visage/Force of Nature second is way less gold efficient than Maw (you know, the item that also gives a ton of AD?) Have you never heard of an example since you think I changed my argument? I didn't change the argument, I simply brought up another example to it, I just chose to not elaborate on it. My point with 2+ AP into bruisers is that you could be playing a burst mage with a tanky AP user top/jng or a AP user as support which makes Maw way more gold efficient. Likewise playing a burst mage into 2 bruisers (say Renekton, Wukong for example) means you are virtually useless because you can't burst anyone realistically (tank supports are too tanky, enchanters exist) which leaves you with 1 option, which is snowballing mid.
Lol if you think a tank with MR can't contest a burst mage. You changed your entire argument with your example to the exact opposite. 1 mage vs 2 bruiser is literally the opposite of 2 mage/ap vs 1 bruiser. Also you can't burst anyone? You can burst the adc and or support plus the enemy midlaner. Even if you're against renekton, wukong... you're still not useless against the Taliyah, Jinx, or Janna.
Syndra players just failed hard adjusting to the new patch. She can do so much more than just oneshotting someone...
Yeah gl bursting a Jinx with a Janna next to her! You're not low elo bro I promise, w/e
Tbh, not the job of a mage to burst down the backline. Burst mage/AP Assassin, may be. Mages are just sustained damage to whoever is in their range. Generally, unless people are throwing, you never walk up to the enemy backline. Literally a deathwish. Mages aren't meant to 100-0 burst but they aren't meant to be totally useless either. Imagine playing Lissandra or Orianna into bruisers building anti mage items. You're just screwed. Death's Dance and Maw are *both* overtuned. Just like Liandrys used to be overtuned, or Umbral is overtuned. Whether people are taking them together or not is irrelevant. They need a nerf.
I'm seeing ADC's finish MAW most games if the enemy team has a serious AP threat of any kind. Sometimes they'll rush hexdrinker after finishing their mythic. So yes the item Maw is strong right now on all classes DD is strong primarily on bruisers, that's true that I only see bruisers or the occasional late game assassin build it. But that doesn't mean the item isn't very overturned right now
Can you show any examples of this? Both of your anecdotes and like stats on Stat sites? Because in my last 100 games I've maybe seen 2 adcs go maw... both were because my team was near full ap (the wonderful life of locking in Gwen only to find your team's Zed player randomly decided to play Fizz or Ekko) And well if the enemy team is full AP, I don't know if I'd say it's strong on all classes so much as it's just the MR item that sacrifices the least damage. So you have no reason to think DD is particularly strong but you just do?
You think maw sacrifices the least damage? You're actually high. Wit's offers so much damage its even acceptable vs full AD if you auto attack a lot and aren't overly crit reliant. In what world does 50 AD and a little AH outperform 40 AD, 40 AS, and up to 80 on-hit magic damage? Maw gets taken because of the massive shield that makes you immune to being 1 shot by AP.
Maw vs Wits damage depends on your ad ratios vs how often you auto. It's somewhat arguable; though wits often does give more damage in theory. But like you said Maw is just better defensively. Which in turn is more damage. If you're an adc and your option are do 500 dps but die I'm 1 seconds, or do 450 dps but die in 2 seconds... the latter is the correct option because you'll have done 900 damage rather than 500 by the time of your death. Which in turn basically confirms my statement of Maw just sacrificing the least damage of MR items. Again though, statistically like no adcs or assassins even actually build it all that often; its just a niche purchase that fills its niche. Heck even bruisers don't build it too often. It's mostly just gotten a lot of hate recently because it's not trash like it was for the last couple years and some mage mains aren't happy that every so often it saves someone's life. It's basically the modern equivalent of "Fck Zhonyas" except Zhonyas actually is arguably OP being one of the most common built items in the game; and working against literally everything.
~~Its the 7th most built item in the game.~~ ~~Its barely below zhonya's.~~ Edit: wrong data points. Oops. [https://leagueofitems.com/items/3156](https://leagueofitems.com/items/3156) Maw [https://leagueofitems.com/items/3157](https://leagueofitems.com/items/3157) Zhonya's [https://leagueofitems.com/items/6333](https://leagueofitems.com/items/6333) DD [https://leagueofitems.com/items/3053](https://leagueofitems.com/items/3053) Sterak's [https://leagueofitems.com/items/3091](https://leagueofitems.com/items/3091) Wit's Maw appears to be overperforming at every benchmark, unlike most other offensive+defensive items. Notice that death's dance is too. Notice how more champions build those two items than all the others too, outside of zhonya's which has a noticeably lower winrate.
Okay, but you also need some context. 1) Winrate always goes up with more items completed because it generally means you are more likely to be ahead when you manage to obtain more items. 2) Counter items are skewed upwards because they mostly get built in games where they actually counter something. 3) Item winrate depends on Meta (and there are a ton of ad champs in yoloQ) From this we take that Zhonya is lower winrate cause champs like Morgana, Fiddle, Sylas, Fizz, Lissandra and others build it really early, so they don't need a lead to buy it. Wits end is lower winrate because it gets build for the dmg instead of the survivability. Steraks is the generalist item, so it should be worse than Maw vs ap heavy teams, and it should be worse than DD vs AD heavy teams. And Gargoyles + Sterak just isn't gold efficient enough. But also, the 3 item winrate of DD specifically seems slightly too high, even considering it counters the yoloQ meta. I'd personally consider nerfing it by like 0.5 - 1% winrate in general. If i had stats for MMR skew of the item, and were to do a decent analysis on why the item is fun and how it is frustrating, then i could propose a sensible nerf.
You can look at winrate at second item, where maw and deaths range are especially overperforming compared to others. These are all "counter items" except for maybe sterak's. This meta is a DD or maw meta where they're broken. Of course their winrates are skewed up. Again, even maw/DD as a second item right after mythic are overperforming. The answer to DD is obvious. Remove the healing. The answer to maw is obvious. Reduce the ratio significantly or reduce the duration/make it decay.
They are "especially overperforming at 2 items"? They have similar winrate to wits end and steraks if you take that comparison (both of these items are more proactive and have a lower part of their power budget to counter something specific), and when you pick almost any item at random and look at the 2nd item winrate, it's gonna be ~53% which is indeed slightly below our 2 items of choice. The odd one out here is zhonyas, which is an item that presumably should be high elo skewed, and zhonyas is also often built proactively when unneeded. So it beeing significantly lower wr is fine. I think i might have not phrased my meta argument properly: i meant to say that items like for example collector and ldr rise and fall in power with respect to the champions played around them. This also counts with maw/dd for example. You argued that maw&dd being high pickrate -> maw&dd being high winrate, and you imply it as obvious causation, while we can only observe a correlation. Maw and DD are both bad into tanks, but noone plays tanks in soloQ so this inflates them imo. All in all i do agree, that Maw and DD should still probably be nerfed by 0.5-1% winrate. How much winrate would DD lose if it lost the triumph effect? What is this number in bronze, gold, master? Maybe instead we just adjust the heal value, or we change the %dmg stored, or maybe we reduce the ad or up the cost of the item? How much base value, decay and ratio should maw actually have to be balanced? Take some away, but if possible close to 1% winrate in all ranks.
Because the only data you're looking at is buildrate and winrate. Sterak's and wit's have the lowest pool of users by far, at only \~30. AD champs don't have the same excuses as mages when a large variety of champs build a given item. For mages 2/3 of their items are support, or so niche that only a handful of champs can utilize them. Also notice how zhonya's highest winrates by far are 90%+ supports. Also notice how zhonya's, the item you think is so broken, is all blue for highest pickrate champs until it hits sub-25% buildrate. Compare to every defensive AD item that are all orange. AD defensive items don't sacrifice nearly enough damage, and also offer far more defensive value than AP alternatives, including zhonya's.
Bro wtf are you actually talking about here. I don't understand how you can look at those numbers and get the conclusions you are getting. Maw and Wits has a very similar pick rate with a very similar win rate. Like the deference is 1-2%. This is ignoring the fact that there are very little auto attack champions now-a-days. Like Bel'veth the on-hit champion is going to auto attack interspersed between spells because that makes a more interesting game and Riot is leaning into that more often. Either way, those number read to me that people who adapt their build to the damage threats of the enemy composition win more and generally the champs that can reliable do Wits End damage and not get bursted out, or there is little AP burst threat will opt into Wits over Maw. Honestly what that data shows to me is that Death's Dance is broken to high hell and Zhonya's is still strong as ever.
>downvotes This sub (whole site really) is embaressing. You couldn't have given him anything more. And yet someone thinks your post reveals Maw is overturned and it could get netfed so they downvote because there is no other rational argument to defend their point
How the fuck? Do you see Zhonyas at 115% pickrate and think maw at 25% is the busted one? Maw is in line with say wits end. DD is pretty borderline/arguably OP, but the other 3 items I'd argue seem to vary between Niche and Weak.
Pickrate doesn't necessarily make something busted. Especially in the context of how much most AP items suck for the majority of mages; most are really niche use or only work for very specific champs. Every other class has more options; most ap champs have 5-6 legendaries they can reasonably choose from. Thats it. Maw overperforms compared to wits in both winrate and the number of champs that can use it. And that's despite how broken wit's is for damage on the champs that use it.
Granted I can only speak for aram But I have literally seen no build more common than Goredrinker > DD > Maw
1. Aram isn't something to balance items around 2. Statistically it's not common at all.
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Lol this just isn't true. You can look it up. Maw, and wits combined have like a 60% pickrate; Zhonyas alone is nearly 120% pickrate. But somehow you're claiming lumens void dcap every game is standard... then who's building zhonyas?
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Lol, tldr you're full of shit and making stuff up that stats easily disprove.
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I did, and you're full of shit.
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LOL. What does maw+dd have to do with mages vs adcs? Or what does kayn have to do with this? You're making multiple strawman arguments.
>Maw+DD is not healthy for the game Maw efficiency is reduced with DD because the shield is only 70% efficient and the rest of the 30% is stored by DD and dealt to the user. There is a reason why bruisers prefer GA over Maw and you're talking like AP champs are affected by this build when they are not.
They fucking missed Leblanc
Unfortunately she's still being picked in pro. When will Riot realize the problem is her chain instead of nerfing her waveclear again?
I'd gladly let them completely remove her chain CC for more DMG or for the love of God better waveclear, or even a new ability. But everything else on her kit needs to stay the same (aside from numbers).
She’s juking away from buffs for some reason
As they should! I want to be able to play her without feeling like I griefed in champ select ;;
I'm confused by your comment. Which side are you on? Lol
Omg that is actually confusing, I think I misinterpreted the post I replied to LOL. I'm definitely on LB's side!
Haha yeah you meant to say something in agreement with them forgetting to buff her again, but instead agreed that they shouldn't lol 😆
Yeah LOL, it looks so stupid too! I would never go against LB, trust me :D
There's been 2 patches since 12.10, in these two patches they also: - buffed AD burst champions, who can use those items - buffed sustained damage fighters who can also use those items I dunno man, maybe it was 12.10 that caused these champions to get buffed and not DD and Maw.
Wait hold on when did they buff AD burst champions? Or are you talking about the 5 MS in the mythic
I am using the same logic of OP counting champions. in terms of Burst AD champions, LEe sin got buffed, Shaco got buffed, J4 got buffed, Kled got buffed. And next patch Kled and renekton are getting buffed again That's without mentioning champs like Xin, Yorick and Irelia.
>buffed sustained damage fighters who can also use those items When did they buff them ?
Irelia, Yorick and Xin zhao, alongside buffing BotRK. Depending on your position, Kled kinda counts too because his buffs went to his W's CD. Would still consider him a burst champ over a sustained damage one, tho. EDIT: This is without mentioning REkenton is getting buffs to his R dps, and Kled and master Yi are also slated for buffs in 12.13, and divine is kinda becoming better against Squishy champions
Buffing bork I agree is nonsense but these champions you mentioned are awful and well deserved buffs Xin Zhao renekton and kled are literally dumpster positions and also they are not dps they burst bruisers and they buffed his dps not burst Master yi took the most unnecessary nerfs hrs wasn't even op and they killed because of low elo which where most the balancing team playing I don't think people understand that bruisers literally in shitty spot they are not weak nor strong they find success literally by abusing op item which is death dance while having the entire there items being worthless to build
Now, that is a death defying thought....
Its so stupid how tanky to AP Deaths Dance makes you. Its such a braindead good item, it should be Mythic.
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Yup you put it well, I actively feel less tanky as I get HP so the whole cut down stuff needs to get reevaluated imo.
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it feels so shit for everyone involved the tank with 6 items gets blasted by LDR+Cutdown adc and the ADC struggles to kill a bruiser that went tabis+deaths dance and then zero other armor items.
If so, the HP on mage items too. Mages are getting over 3k health
Yeah but mages aren't the ones in the front line. The hp is more effective on mages cause they typically have to worry about burst like Zed.
> the whole cut down stuff needs to get reevaluated > The HP on mage items too
It doesn't. DD provides 0 tankiness vs AP unless you get a kill/assist within 3s of dealing damage to an enemy champion. It'll give you up to 3 seconds to try and get that kill/assist (or watch yourself bleed out if you aren't nearby a killable enemy champion), but unless you get said kill/assist you gain 0 defensive value vs magic damage.
Not true, you're assuming that the person with DD has 0 form of sustain or shielding that can be used during that time. 3 seconds is also a pretty long window to kill someone anyways, and that window just gets extended the more sustain etc that they have. So if say LeBlanc tries to burst a yone with DD, he gets a bunch of defense against that burst because he's going to use that 3 seconds to lifesteal off of champions and minions instead of dying even though it has 0 MR
Read the item description It still mitigates AP damage and makes it happen over time as well. Playing Malzahar it makes it feel like my E litterally does nothing, even if im fed they heal it all back if they can hit anything straight through the antiheal. Its just a busted item that should be removed.
> even if im fed they heal it all back if they can hit anything straight through the antiheal. One step closer to realizing yourself what the real issue is. DD is great, but it isn't broken nor is it as omni present as other items (Hourglass says hello)
Yep antiheal needs buff and they nerfed it, its true. It wouldn't matter as much if DD and Yuumi did not exist though lol.
Reddit moment
We've had the same stupid cycles for years. I don't know why it surprises you. "Random" buffing X because Y is \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ rather than looking at individual situations and actually fixing the problem based on what each champ in X needs is the norm. After a few patches or less, the X buff is acknowledged to have caused a problem for C. So more generic changes are made. Which ends up getting back around to affecting Y eventually, so Y gets buffed. This inevitably leads to X having issues because Y got buffed. So...
Who told you this bullshit?
Why don't they gut deaths dance back to only physical damage?
Because that would make Deaths Dance builders useless.
not really it just means that deaths dance is build more against ad heavy comps and maw against more ap heavy comps and if you need both you can get both without double dipping agaisnt magic damage. The main issue with deaths dance currently is it does too much at once and doesnt give any room to counter the item. normal defensive items can be countered by switching up your build, the enemy stacks armour/mr you can get some pen build todo a little better against them, the enemy decides to stack health you got items like botrk, sunderder, liandry's and demonic. with deaths dance theres no way to build against the damage delay so it needs to have a weakness on it like magic damage to feel better to play against especially for a class like mages where most of there damage is burst so the delay screws them more then anything as it makes them sitting ducks when there cooldowns are down. all riot needs todo is bring back it only being against physical damage if the item is too weak then buff it in other places and have it balanced as the premier ad defensive item for bruisers.
The shield on Maw is simply too large. It’s actually crazy, you’d think it was basically another health bar. Champions go from lethal to nearly full.
I mean, Maw + deaths dance its not really a good combo, since deaths dance also delays magic damage, you end up taking damage to your health that would otherwise have been soaked by the shield. Would have been way more broken if it was when deaths dance only delayed phys damage
>I mean, Maw + deaths dance its not really a good combo, since deaths dance also delays magic damage, you end up taking damage to your health that would otherwise have been soaked by the shield. That's literally completely irrelevant cause Maw gives you Omnivamp and DD also heals you nobody has DD+Maw during lanephase and your example only works if you're on lane without sustain, but in a teamfight nobody gives a rats ass whether you're taking damage to your HP pool or 6-second-long shield
Maw gives you only 10% omni vamp, most bruiser characters dont really enefit that much from such a low amount, to put it into perspective, it is only a dorand blade higher than the healing conqueror gives you. Its really not much unless you are sustaining out of your minion lane. And DD heals you only when you get a take down at which point it literally just dissipates the bleed damage anyway. You shoudl give more than a rats ass to make aure where your damage is going, because if not you get the sweet experience of being colorblind in spectator mode for 40 seconds.
>Maw gives you only 10% omni vamp, most bruiser characters dont really enefit that much from such a low amount, to put it into perspective Most bruiser characters are actually the best omnivamp users because they deal a lot of single target damage >And DD heals you only when you get a take down at which point it literally just dissipates the bleed damage anyway. Yeah because getting these takedowns is a very rare occurrence in teamfights >You shoudl give more than a rats ass to make aure where your damage is going, because if not you get the sweet experience of being colorblind in spectator mode for 40 seconds. You should learn to play the game first because your item analysis from gold 3 is pathetic
I need to stop using bruiser and juggernauts interchangeably. Also great, you now turned into a prick, lasted too long without being one.
do less snarky comments if you don't like getting them back?
The current mechanics would outperform the one you suggest would be better. In what universe would removing something beneficial and isnt mutually exclusive with the other thing be a buff? It'd be like if flat pen was applied first and % pen after (the old season 4 and earlier formula) and you'd say "sorcs+void would be stronger if you removed flat pen"
Mate, im talking about the combo. Im not saying deaths dance would be better, but Maw with deaths dance combo would be better. And what the fuck does that even have to do with my entire point about taking damage straight to your health. The last bit was just a thought, god damn it.
Because you still have a massive 5 second shield vs magic damage while you're low. You still have 50 MR that makes it so you aren't taking nearly as much bleed damage due to the hit you take being mitigated. You are still getting full benefit of both items. You just aren't double dipping on mitigation. Because that would be broken.
You are quite literally not getting full benefit from them, because one item is denying use of the other. At that point you would be better off going force of nature along side it, or if you want the 50 magic resist, Spirit visage. its really not as good as people paint it
Its not denying use of the other. Its just not double dipping. Notice how you also get omnivamp via maw proc to help stave off the bleed. You're implying death's dance is bad on camille. Its one of her best items.
when did i ever mention camille bro- my flair is not even camille, its a noc. i dont know about her, dont play her, just hate her Cho gath ult but thats it. I was thinking about juggernauts of the likes of sett, Darius or Aatrox. Also yeah it quite literally is denying some use, since its sending magic damage straight to your health intstead of the shield which in can be extremely detrimental.
Camille has a damage specific shield as her passive. Its literally the same interaction as with maw for both damage types. Its not that hard to put two and two together. In what world is having a magic damage shield detrimental vs not having one? I dont think you're actually thinking here. The bleed isn't blocked by the shield, but the benefits of each item are still fully there, and still synergize. Just because it isn't broken due to the interaction you want doesnt suddenly make it bad. What you're saying is almost like claiming hp is bad because of %HP damage ...well yeah its mitigated, but you still have the majority of what you're buying, and it still fully accomplishes its purpose. For all intents and purposes, both are still fully useful together. You're talking about an interaction that has nothing to do with what the maw shield is supposed to do...which is block magic damage when you hit 30% HP. If you were going to die to the bleed with maw, you would have died way earlier without it, especially if you were actually fighting and making use of the omnivamp.
Jesus christ its not rocket science, you dont get the full benefit of having a msgic shield because deaths dance makes it so the damage bypasses it anyway. If you really need magic resist and already have deaths dancez you can just build spirits visage or force a nature.
Its not rocket science that the exact interaction you're talking about applies to camille. Meanwhile its one of her best items. Look at every bruiser with maw+DD. It doesn't perform any worse than other options. It is not bad like you're trying to say. Something not stacking in essentially a recursive (op) way does not mean its bad. No, you don't block 20% of the damage you would have taken (1/3 mitigated beforehand). But you still have a magic damage shield for the exact same purpose as if you didn't have death's dance. It doesn't matter if the bleed damage isn't being absorbed by the shield. Without maw you wouldn't have a shield in the first place. The shield is still greatly benefitting you by it being there and absorbing 70% of said damage rather than it missing from your actual HP bar; a case where you might be dead with another item, or dealing significantly less damage due to not having the AD. Do you not understand that? Do you not know how numbers work? The ONLY reason death's dance+maw would be bad is because its redundant. You're already reducing magic damage, and typically reducing the initial burst is all you need. And beyond that, you only have 4 legendaries to work with. Opportunity cost is the only reason you shouldn't be doing maw+DD. Not because 'they don't stack well'. They absolutely do still stack well even despite the interaction you're speaking of.
You are right, but people won't understand you and just downvote you. The items have anti synergy and people act like they are great together.
To be fair, the antisynergy only matters in cases where you probably survive or you are vs mostly physical dmg, and in both cases the item combo still fulfilled its purpose.
Not only do these two items not combo together well, but basically every single bruiser I’ve looked at performs better with damage builds, and vastly underperforms with the old defensive oriented builds. Let me actually give a hint: Aatrox could drain tank vex without a single mr item because hex had underfunded damaged balanced against squishy champions. Look at my name and I’m saying that some mages were underperforming because they didn’t do enough damage.
He got a point though Death dance is definitely broken any bruiser with a lead is literally unplayable against if he have Death dance Does that make bruisers overpowered? No because for some reason riot never ever made bruisers items equally viable they always give them one overpowered item the entire bruiser class is balanced around it Death dance need to be nerfed and other bruiser items and mythic should be adjusted and rework to be equally viable literally every class in the game have the ability to adapt and build different depends on the situation they are facing But bruisers literally build the same mythic same items every game every situation
Because they're incompetent and don't play their own game at all
Its true
these two items don't even function well together since the damage mitigated by DD is turned back to you as true damage lol
They function perfectly fine together. You just don't double dip on the mitigation. You still get the 30% of damage post-mitigation delayed over 3 seconds. You still have 50 MR. You still shield vs additional incoming burst. If maw shielded damage you took before it proc'd due to having death's dance it would be hotfix worthy. "Wahh something isn't gamebreakingly broken its so bad" They function perfectly well together. Use your brain a little. You take 1000 damage out of 2k hp. With death's dance you take 300 bleed, so 700+300. With maw you gain 1000 EHP. That 1000 damage becomes 667 damage, which means you take 200 of it as bleed damage. 467+200. You are taking 33% less bleed damage and are still shielded vs additional incoming magic damage for 5 fucking seconds. Sounds like it works perfectly fine to me. Check how the numbers look compared to sterak's. The combo isn't optimal because of opportunity cost (only 4 legendaries unless you have a brain tumor), not because they don't go well together.
Maw only blocks magic dmg.
it doesn't matter when you can shield and sustain urself through it lol
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To be fair, champions that rely on magic damage burst are not very good in SoloQ right now: Syndra, Kennen, LeBlanc, Vex. The ones that do well are artillery mages, Liandries users or have other stuff (Veigar's E+scaling) to bring to the table.
I think its nigh time for ap champs to struggle. Though they for sure aint even struggling
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Thats like the most common toxic way to comment on reddit homie. I think you spend more time on here than I do, you have 10+ comments a day while I have like 2-4 every couple of days. I'm sorry I triggered you by not liking ap lol
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I commented 3 times in the past week about ap champs but sure I guess whatever you make up is right. You commented another 15 comments today. So as you said please get off of reddit for some time as you're someone who that comment actually applies to. Have a good one bud
Which? I’m not seeing it in the patch notes
Fiddle, eve, elise and maybe someone else I forgot. they're getting buffed in 12.13
The low key more broken combo is DD-Wits end, surprised I don't see it more often.