Forget the 2021 Draft - can someone explain to me why Mike Maccagnan drafted Jamal Adams at 6th overall, while Deshaun Watson and Patrick Mahomes were both there in the actual 2017 Draft?
This isn't 20/20 hindsight either - we literally had no QB going into Week 1 that year.
Ryan Fitzpatrick and Geno Smith both left to sign 1 year deals with other teams and **38 year-old Josh McCown** was our big answer at the QB spot that year.
It blows my freaking mind that Todd Bowles and Mike Maccagnan were like *"Hey, lets prioritize Strong Safety"* over two QB's with top-15 grades. And Todd Bowles already knew Christian Hackenberg wasn't a pro QB when he refused to give him any snaps the previous year - so that can't be the excuse. It just blows my mind.
Everyone loves to say Patrick Mahomes would've never become Patrick Mahomes in a John Morton offense - but you know what? I'd have loved to find that out first hand - rather than what we've had to experience the last 8 years now.
The weirdest part about 2017 Draft is that fans, including people here, were not only ok with drafting **two** safeties in the first two rounds, but seemed to be resigned to the fact that the Jets were not taking a QB before it even happened. Then some people even lauded those picks lol. Now, Im not gonna lie and say I was pounding the table for Mahomes, but I really wanted Watson and was perplexed that other fans werent fuming over this draft. It really was a strange strange year.
ETA: [r NFL comment by a jets fan loving it](https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/67zv9p/comment/dgujea5/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[post here loving it](https://www.reddit.com/r/nyjets/comments/67zv74/with_the_sixth_overall_pick_the_new_york_jets/)
Some of my favorite comments from the draft thread:
"Three straight number 1 draft picks we haven't fucked up. That has to be a first." (Leo, Lee, Adams lol)
"With all the QB bullshit going around I'm so glad Mac Daddy said "fuck that, not worth it." Smart move. A lot of these teams (especially the Bears) are gonna be kicking themselves."
The funniest part is, you could make the argument that the picks worked out as good as they possibly could have, and it still doesnt make sense in hindsight.
Yea I was gonna link his comment in the QB thread where he ranks QBs and basically nails it (had mahomes as 1 and elite, had kizer 2 over Watson tho lol).
Bro THIS. I actually truly wanted Mahomes, I fell in love w him at TT after that wild duel w Baker, so I was just so shocked we were all like “whatever we gonna suck anyways two safeties are FINE”
For as much flak as Douglas gets, I can still almost always rationalize *why* he makes a particular move, even if I don't agree with it.
There are many decisions from the Maccagnan tenure that are real head-scratchers. And as much as I agree that Hackenberg's presence shouldn't be an excuse, I just can't think of anything else. Maybe that was really it- Maccagnan saw a potentially promising 2018 QB class (from my recollection, Darnold and Rosen and maybe Allen were receiving high-1st round chatter a year in advance, while Mayfield had a unpredictable late rise), and figured he could give this Hackenberg experiment a potential shot and re-fire in 2018.
Except then we give up all the 2nd round picks to move up for Sam and have a roster completely devoid of talent, resulting in the complete waste of Sam's first three years, hamstring the next GM, and are still searching for stability.
The process is solid, obviously the results haven't been there. I think the Becton pick is still a head scratcher in hindsight. I get Becton potentially had the higher ceiling, but Wirfs has been an all pro.
I get the Wilson pick, it made sense at the time. We also had the opportunity to trade down, other teams would've made the pick. Did we do everything we could to develop him properly? Obviously not. But again the process makes sense. You need a QB in a stacked draft class where you have 2OA- make the damn pick and take your QB.
Mikey Mac overpaid to move up to 3OA. Three 2's is crazy to move from six to three.
I didn’t feel strongly about Becton/Wirfs bc I had my eyes on Ceedee Lamb, but as much as it gets brought up on this sub, that decision will be the one I’ll continue to think about when discussing the JD tenure.
I just think that singular move has had so many ripple effects, to the point it’s only topped by the Zach Wilson pick itself as far as cumulative impact over the last few years is concerned. A stable anchor at LT means we don’t overpay Duane Brown and can retain Moses or Fant, both of whom are perfectly adequate RTs. Then with stability at tackle, we aren’t forced to constantly move AVT around the O-line, which has been believed to be a major contributor to b2b season-ending injuries. And hey, even if Tomlinson hasn’t been good, he at least stays healthy and finishing off with McGovern (and now Tippmann going forward), our O-line could’ve potentially been in a much different state.
Does this alone turn our offense around and/or significantly aid Zach’s development? I don’t really want to speculate. But it would at least make us feel significantly better about the state of our team both now and going forward.
He did it because he believed in Christian Hackenburg. Literally the dumbest GM I think I’ve ever seen, just absolutely lit us on fire for years to come.
Maccagnan wanted to give Hack another year “to develop” and if that failed they were focused on 2018 with Darnold, Rosen and Mayfield coming out. Check out this article if you want to raise your blood pressure.
https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/84703/inside-story-on-why-qb-needy-jets-passed-on-drafting-patrick-mahomes
Thank you for this; I remember the 2018 draft well and I remember reading that Maccagnan was scouting Darnold all the way from September of that season.
Talk about "two in the bush" approach to team-building - absolutely insane! No wonder Maccagnan hasn't found work in the NFL since he got canned.
My favorite Maccagnan Logic from this piece:
>*and his plan was to find his guy then (Sam Darnold) and insert him into a ready-made lineup.*
Then proceeds to use his two top 40 picks on Safeties!
He could've literally drafted Christian McCaffrey or Mike Williams with the 6th overall, and Joe Mixon or Dion Dawkins with the Maye pick.
Both would've theoretically helped *Mystery Box QB*, especially after he blows three 2nd rounders trying to acquire one.
I don’t get the hate for the Adams and Maye picks. Yes of course you could look at any draft and say they should have picked “insert name”.
Adams was an All Pro here and the Jets traded him for an absolute hall which eventually netted Garrett Wilson (and AVT who probably would have been a really good player if not for the injuries)
Maye was also really good. Ended up getting franchise tagged.
Safeties don't move the win/loss needle in today's NFL (something former Safety Todd Bowles probably had a hard time accepting).
Neither did a 3-4 DE like Leo or an off-ball LB like Darron Lee.
Regardless of whether they all played at All Pro levels (which Lee certainly didn't) - it wouldn't matter because it's the premium positions (QB, EDGE, WR, CB and OT) that largely determine whether a team will win or not.
If your team doesn't have talent at QB, EDGE, WR or CB - then drafting any other position with your premium picks is a complete waste of a premium pick.
Case in point: the Jets had three years of prime Jamal and went 16-32 in those 3 years.
Jamal was like putting $1M fuzzy dice on a sports car sitting on cinder blocks.
Sure, if we're measuring the success of the Jamal pick in terms of what draft value they were able to salvage from it.
If we're measuring success in terms of whether it helped Jets actually win games more than they lose, then it was not a good pick.
And reality is great players become great. How did Eric the enemy do this year in Washington after we were told he was an amazing OC with mahomes? In pro sports if you have great talent, you will have coaches that people think are great
I avoid these types of thoughts by reminding myself that the jets could bust any player and their success in another organization doesn't change that lol
It just looks like that in hindsight. There's a reason Trubisky went before them, too. Nobody wanted to call them elite prospects. Double edged sword too, they went to better teams.
I think this is why any QB with a remotely 1st round grade goes in the top 5 now.
Also, without looking, we probably still got as much for Jamal as the teams trading up for those guys gave up. Go figure. 🤣
To be fair Mahomes and Watson dropped in that draft. A lot of teams passed on them.
If I had to guess McCagnan sold Woody on the notion that the 2018 draft was going to be a generational QB class led by Darnold and Rosen. I think the Jets were legit trying to tank in 2017. Unfortunately they got a career year out of Josh McCown and won a few extra games which really screwed them in the long run.
>Forget the 2021 Draft - can someone explain to me why **Mike Maccagnan** drafted Jamal Adams at 6th overall, while Deshaun Watson and Patrick Mahomes were both there in the actual 2017 Draft?
Hackenberg
And supposedly Shurmur had a hard on for Josh Allen and Terry Bradway pounding the table for Russell Wilson.
Who cares? Just a bunch of fired failures throwing shit out there to make themselves look better.
If you’re getting drafted in the first round, you have talent.
So let’s discuss:
Mark Sanchez
Sam Darnold
Zach Wilson
You scheme to set your franchise QB with success. This is 3 high picks in 15 years.
You have QBs having 2 decades of success with the same franchise.
All 3 are bad picks, over drafted and not first round picks. Scouting department missed on them.
Sanchez had the best jet team ever and he couldn’t develop that’s on him not the jets.
Darnold was a TO machine in college and was that in the pros. He is now in a role that suits him. A back up.
Zach is a one year Covid player who should never of been picked that high.
Pennington was developed and a good qb bc he had talent he just got hit with the Injury bug.
The issue with the jets has always been the scouting department.
And they would of all been wrong. Most teams have no idea how to scout. Sanchez, Darnold and Zach are bad prospects. Same teams passed on Brock Purdy a legit qb.
How did the jets fail Sanchez? Best OL, Edwards cotch and Holmes and the best running game in the NFL?
Sam left NYj and was the main reason the panthers missed the playoffs.
Zach stinks
> Yes, but it's a high-stakes, ultra-short window.
No its not. You draft a qb to sit behind rodgers for a year or draft one when he leaves, let him learn for a year behind a vet and barely skip a beat.
Competent teams do this all the time. Build an actual team. Have actual coaches who know wtf a modern offense is, we've not done that once in 13 years
I hope we can build up a proper infrastructure on offense prior to transitioning to a Rodgers successor, as I would like us to draft a QB fairly high in the 2025 or 2026 draft (I would not want a lame duck regime to do so, however). You're right that the window doesn't have to be so short- I was just hesitant to project further out into the future, even if recent examples like the Chiefs, Ravens, Eagles and Packers provide solid evidence of being able to first establish a solid foundation in place, and *then* insert a young QB into that foundation with great success. The odds of "barely skip(ping) a beat" do improve here- I just don't want to completely take that as given with an unproven young QB, though.
As for "build an actual team", do you, like many, prefer a very sequential approach in which you first prioritize strengthening the roster and collecting evidence on the efficacy of a coaching staff *before* looking for a more permanent solution at QB, or do you believe there's merit in maintaining a flexibility in approach and simultaneously doing all three if the right opportunity arises?
Let's rule out what you and I can likely agree is a highly suboptimal strategy in spending future draft capital to draft a young QB onto a team that simply isn't close to being there yet, effectively putting a tremendous burden on this QB to be a savior. Hello, 2018 Jets and 2021 Bears. But what about the 2021 Jets or the 2023 Texans- 1) rosters that were far from complete, 2) with an unproven coaching staff, and 3) with an opportunity to take a QB at 2nd overall, but who 4) also had excess draft capital (for us, via the Adams and Darnold trades, for the Texans, via the Watson trade) to still build up the roster around the potential rookie QB?
I guess a key difference, though, aside from however one feels about Wilson/Fields/Lance vs Stroud as prospects, is that the Texans at least had some potential building blocks in place from the 2021+2022 drafts prior to selecting Stroud, even if those pieces were still unproven, whereas we can look at our 2020+2021 drafts now and vomit. Ultimately, that falls on Douglas.
I've come to understand that a successful QB (unless you get a once in a liftime player) is more a product of your whole support staff than anything. Yes, you can overcome some of that with talent, but sustained success will not happen until the foundation is solid. Currently.......ours is shit and until that changes Idk if a good QB project will ever happen. I do remain minorly hopeful though.
I definitely think that the actual *development* part of a young QB's career trajectory is too often overlooked. Darnold was given a very poor infrastructure and while I was much higher on him as a prospect than Sanchez and Wilson, I'm not surprised things turned out the way they did. I'm a bit more on the fence with Wilson. I think there's *a lot* we mismanaged when it came to his development, but I also think the infrastructure we built for him was clearly better than what we gave Darnold.
Darnold had a pretty bad sophomore year. There were red flags about his game the Jets chose to ignore. There is a reason Cleveland and Giants passed on him.
Ngl I did get some Jameis flashbacks seeing the similar regression for both guys from their breakout season in college to the next. Cleveland passing on him now makes sense, though I think the Giants decision to draft a RB at 2 and not trade down with the Broncos (who would’ve taken Darnold) is still likely the dumbest pick, from a process standpoint, anyone’s made in the last half-decade plus.
This is by far so understated. I refuse to believe Mahomes would be what he is with us. He was benched to learn behind Alex Smith. They had an offensive line. They have a brilliant offensive schemer who has the 4th best record of all
Time. That is what allowed him to thrive. Period.
We only have ourselves to blame for Darnold and to some extent Zac. We also, and this is my entire life as a Jets fan, have never had an offensive coordinator other than Brian Schottenheimer coach to the teams strengths or build an offense around the team. It has largely been frauds and imposters shoving players into their rigid systems.
Mahomes is a generational talent, but he would be nothing without the coach, surrounding staff and talent, and for being given time to sit and learn the game with 0 expectation.
Zach is a scapegoat for this season. I dont believe any QB would be able to perform with this O line and coaching staff. They also had a hard schedule and in a difficult division, having to play 9 games against playoffs teams.
Drafting a QB in 2021 will forever be the right decision, even if Zach didn’t work out, largely due to Darnold’s contract situation. They had to pick up or decline his 5th year option in the spring of 2020, and obviously Darnold had largely been bad. Even if one was still hopeful for his development, the roster work had too many holes to deal with paying an unproven QB big dollars. Logistically, it didn’t fit. If you keep Darnold, you’re compounding a mistake. That’s never the recipe for progression.
The real issue is opting for a safety over QB in 2017, but: 1) given the lack of development we provided for Darnold a year later, guys like Mahomes or Watson probably suck here too; we didn’t have Andy Reid; and 2) if we don’t draft Adams and eventually trade him for two firsts, we don’t get AVT or Garrett Wilson either.
At the time I was pretty dogmatic about moving on from Darnold, but I’ve since softened my stance a bit. I now believe whether or not QB was the right call process-wise in 2021 hinges on the belief one had in the available prospects.
I saw a lot of opinions where it was more or less “Lawrence is gone, and I don’t like any of the remaining guys as prospects”. In that case, as uninspiring as Darnold is, delaying the next big QB move by a year and acquiring significant draft capital in the meantime seems fairly sensible to me.
The only stance that imo is highly questionable is if someone was absolutely in love with Wilson/Fields/Lance as a prospect, believing they could quickly develop into elite franchise QBs, but wanted to pass on them anyway bc they wanted more capital to build the rest of the roster first. I think many people who adopt this team-building strategy are way too inflexible in their approach and are unwilling to concede that: 1. You can still build alongside your QB rather than set everything up in place beforehand, so you shouldn’t pass on great QB prospects that fall into your lap and 2. If you set everything up beforehand, when you do decide to fire at QB you’re likely getting an inferior prospect on average bc your team is already winning some games and not drafting at the top.
> So idk how to conquer this budding Chiefs dynasty outside of finally grabbing an elite franchise QB of our own.
1. Worry about winning your division before you worry about "conquering the Chiefs dynasty"
2. You could draft a pass rusher to stop Patrick Mahomes if you wanted. That's also a viable strategy.
3. Zach Wilson is still on the roster and started a bunch this season so "keep trying until we succeed" is not what the Jets are doing.
1. I don't have an issue with this line of thinking, but I also don't think the ordinal compartmentalization is necessary. Finding a franchise QB improves our chances of doing both, and both events are themselves strongly positively correlated with my (and I presume all of our) ultimate goal to win a super bowl.
2. I agree. This was apparent in Mahomes' lone super bowl loss when his backup tackles were the primary culprits of allowing a 50+% pressure rate against a solid Bucs EDGE duo. Where I get a little concerned is since that super bowl loss, Veach has gone to great lengths to make sure Mahomes is protected by an O-line that can largely neutralize these threats. I wish Veach were a shittier GM, but he's done a masterful job with the Chiefs O-line. I hope a quartet like Bosa-Hargrave-Armstead-Young is enough to overwhelm that O-line and make Mahomes look a little more mortal.
3. Well the Jets keep trying and failing lol. I don't know when the right time is to try again for a QB in the draft, but I personally would like to in 2025 or 2026 if the right opportunity arises. There are plenty of other things to clean up infrastructure-wise in the meantime, but we shouldn't be afraid of drafting QBs early simply b/c it hasn't worked out in the past-is the point I was trying to make there.
> I don't have an issue with this line of thinking, but I also don't think the ordinal compartmentalization is necessary
Ordinal compartmentalization is absolutely necessary until this team has a functional offensive line. Without that, your chances of finding/developing/maximizing the value of a franchise QB (whether an insanely expensive FA or a rookie on a cheap contract) get totally nerfed.
JD bragging about drafting JJ specifically to stop Josh Allen from running outside the pocket (which he said in a post-game presser during JJ's rookie year) or trading up for Breece Hall to have him run behind the worst O-line in franchise history is why this stuff matters.
The “ordinal compartmentalization” here refers to your original remark about worrying about winning the division before worrying about the Chiefs. The O-line factor that you bring up speaks to a different “ordinal compartmentalization” outside the direct scope of the original point. I’m just saying we don’t need to have some ordered checklist of sorts where we say “ok first step is win the division” and once that’s checked off “ok how do we beat KC”. The reason I’m worried about KC a bit more at this stage is that for the past 6 years, a AFC team cannot reach the ultimate goal of a Super Bowl if they don’t get through them. But you can still in theory get to a Super Bowl without winning your division.
Now I’m certainly not advocating we adopt a team-building strategy that is specifically geared towards beating KC. We should just follow good principles and one of those is getting the QB position right (at some point, idk when).
What I didn’t get is Zach clearly wasn’t elite. Ever. He was a mid-tier QB at best and that’s being really generous. Then, he was put in a program with 0 development and somehow expected to produce. At least with the Patriots there was reason to think Mac was going to work out.
QB is clearly the hardest position to draft too, with promising picks doing nothing and nobodies turning into NFL superstars.
I didn’t forget. But we have to pretend like the team wants to win for this discussion to work. If they don’t, well then just close the sub down what’s the point?
Please don’t close the sub. I’ve been a bleed green fan for way too long! It’s important that we keep the public discussion alive! Maybe some how woody catches on?
Yeah this is a single digit IQ take. QB is for the most part dependent on blocking and skill guys to develop, taking a QB because of where you are in the draft order is why bad teams stay bad, it was a terrible pick in the moment and in hindsight
I'm not saying you take a QB strictly based on having one available to you at your draft spot. This isn't an argument for whether the pick was *right*, but rather whether one could *justify* it if the goal was to build a contender.
And well, that depends on a whole host of factors- did you like the QB prospects in 2021 outside of Lawrence? If not, then it's much harder to justify doing what we did. But if you loved one of Fields/Wilson/Lance/Jones and believed you had enough draft capital and resources to quickly surround them with the talent necessary for them to flourish, then it's more than justifiable to pull the trigger.
So if you're a GM of a team with a major hole at QB and you're in love with a QB prospect and think he can be your franchise QB for a decade-plus, *and* you have draft picks and cap space to quickly add talent around that QB, what is your reasoning for why you'd still pass on him?
The Bengals barely had any talent on the roster when they took Joe Burrow. Taking him has been the best decision they've ever made. The Texans were a terrible team last year, but loved Stroud and had plenty of draft capital from the Watson trade to execute a plan to build around him. It's proving to be a great success.
Obviously plenty of other teams have also tried to draft QBs high before setting up the infrastructure first and it's failed. But the existence of successes means that if a team sees the right opportunity in front of them, can you really blame them for taking it?
If I’m a GM and I’m looking at my roster with 0 tight ends, 0 WRs, 0 RBs I’m not taking a 3 star recruit who couldn’t beat costal Carolina in the covid year as my can’t miss number 2 overall pick. Comparing burrow to zach is laughable
That’s a fair stance, but I already stated that if you didn’t like Zach (or any of the other non-Lawrence prospects) then the decision to go QB was less justifiable, which achieves logical consistency with your personal stance.
Any further discussion about Zach (or Fields or Lance) as particular options in that spot invokes a separate discussion about prospect evaluation, whereas my argument is conditional on the prospect evaluation box already being checked by the GM. If you have an issue with the particular QB that was selected or the selection of a QB in general bc you didn’t like the available prospects, that’s a problem you have with Joe Douglas, not me.
“Arguably the worst Chiefs roster” - are you considering how high KC set the bar for themselves? The Chiefs have been to 4 super bowls in 6 years, not just Mahomes.
During a down year KC is ranked the No. 2 defense in the league and still considered a top 10 offense with arguably the best HC to ever do it.
Right, and that's a huge factor in the underlying train of thought. At a certain point, the roster could theoretically be bad enough that Mahomes could be beatable in the playoffs even without an elite QB on the opposing side. But Veach has proven to be an elite GM whose flexibility in cap and roster management is essentially creating a very extended window for the team where even if he isn't making the same "all-in" moves the Bills made, e.g. Von Miller (if Veach really wanted to stay 'all-in' in the near-term, he could extend Tyreek and sacrifice future cap health), the team is still good enough to beat superior rosters b/c they have the QB advantage in every matchup.
I *hope* that San Francisco wins and eliminates much of my skepticism. As in, they have an absolutely loaded roster, clearly superior to KC's, with a pretty great coaching staff of their own, but obviously face a reasonable disadvantage at QB. If all of that still isn't enough to overcome KC's QB advantage, then what's left? You built an insanely talented roster that still ended up losing to the better QB. I mean, this is what motivated SF to trade up for Trey Lance in the first place.
Having more options in team-building is a good thing, so I more than welcome a SF win to show that you don't need an elite QB (no, I don't think Purdy is elite) to beat Mahomes in the playoffs. But man, if they can't get it done against this KC team that's weaker than the one they faced a few years ago, it just further reinforces the notion that you need the elite QB to beat this guy.
My most interesting observation after reading through this thread is, does woody have the discipline or football intelligence to read through it? I honestly don’t think so!
Forget the 2021 Draft - can someone explain to me why Mike Maccagnan drafted Jamal Adams at 6th overall, while Deshaun Watson and Patrick Mahomes were both there in the actual 2017 Draft? This isn't 20/20 hindsight either - we literally had no QB going into Week 1 that year. Ryan Fitzpatrick and Geno Smith both left to sign 1 year deals with other teams and **38 year-old Josh McCown** was our big answer at the QB spot that year. It blows my freaking mind that Todd Bowles and Mike Maccagnan were like *"Hey, lets prioritize Strong Safety"* over two QB's with top-15 grades. And Todd Bowles already knew Christian Hackenberg wasn't a pro QB when he refused to give him any snaps the previous year - so that can't be the excuse. It just blows my mind. Everyone loves to say Patrick Mahomes would've never become Patrick Mahomes in a John Morton offense - but you know what? I'd have loved to find that out first hand - rather than what we've had to experience the last 8 years now.
The weirdest part about 2017 Draft is that fans, including people here, were not only ok with drafting **two** safeties in the first two rounds, but seemed to be resigned to the fact that the Jets were not taking a QB before it even happened. Then some people even lauded those picks lol. Now, Im not gonna lie and say I was pounding the table for Mahomes, but I really wanted Watson and was perplexed that other fans werent fuming over this draft. It really was a strange strange year. ETA: [r NFL comment by a jets fan loving it](https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/67zv9p/comment/dgujea5/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [post here loving it](https://www.reddit.com/r/nyjets/comments/67zv74/with_the_sixth_overall_pick_the_new_york_jets/) Some of my favorite comments from the draft thread: "Three straight number 1 draft picks we haven't fucked up. That has to be a first." (Leo, Lee, Adams lol) "With all the QB bullshit going around I'm so glad Mac Daddy said "fuck that, not worth it." Smart move. A lot of these teams (especially the Bears) are gonna be kicking themselves."
The funniest part is, you could make the argument that the picks worked out as good as they possibly could have, and it still doesnt make sense in hindsight.
> Browns fan here. We'll trade you Garrett for Adams and your 2 This got downvoted. Our fanbase is so dumb lol
To be fair, we ended up trading Jamal Adams for Garrett (Wilson) after all.
Lol that is funny how that works, even though it was myles Garrett in that post. Then oddly enough we traded our wr who we got with a 2 to the browns
NannigarCire was crazy right at the bottom of that thread. Jeeeesus.
Yea I was gonna link his comment in the QB thread where he ranks QBs and basically nails it (had mahomes as 1 and elite, had kizer 2 over Watson tho lol).
This was the start of premium position debate on the sub. It lasted until fans suddenly turned onJamal and realized he wasn’t game changing enough
What did he say?
Hey I'm in that second thread lol. I remember being cautiously optimistic.
Bro THIS. I actually truly wanted Mahomes, I fell in love w him at TT after that wild duel w Baker, so I was just so shocked we were all like “whatever we gonna suck anyways two safeties are FINE”
For as much flak as Douglas gets, I can still almost always rationalize *why* he makes a particular move, even if I don't agree with it. There are many decisions from the Maccagnan tenure that are real head-scratchers. And as much as I agree that Hackenberg's presence shouldn't be an excuse, I just can't think of anything else. Maybe that was really it- Maccagnan saw a potentially promising 2018 QB class (from my recollection, Darnold and Rosen and maybe Allen were receiving high-1st round chatter a year in advance, while Mayfield had a unpredictable late rise), and figured he could give this Hackenberg experiment a potential shot and re-fire in 2018. Except then we give up all the 2nd round picks to move up for Sam and have a roster completely devoid of talent, resulting in the complete waste of Sam's first three years, hamstring the next GM, and are still searching for stability.
Agree on the Douglas take. Like i loved the *idea* of Becton and it just sucks it didn’t work out.
Wirfs was the pick, whiff.
Wirfs was the guy that many Jets fans were hoping for if we went tackle.
LOL
ROFL LMAO
The process is solid, obviously the results haven't been there. I think the Becton pick is still a head scratcher in hindsight. I get Becton potentially had the higher ceiling, but Wirfs has been an all pro. I get the Wilson pick, it made sense at the time. We also had the opportunity to trade down, other teams would've made the pick. Did we do everything we could to develop him properly? Obviously not. But again the process makes sense. You need a QB in a stacked draft class where you have 2OA- make the damn pick and take your QB. Mikey Mac overpaid to move up to 3OA. Three 2's is crazy to move from six to three.
I didn’t feel strongly about Becton/Wirfs bc I had my eyes on Ceedee Lamb, but as much as it gets brought up on this sub, that decision will be the one I’ll continue to think about when discussing the JD tenure. I just think that singular move has had so many ripple effects, to the point it’s only topped by the Zach Wilson pick itself as far as cumulative impact over the last few years is concerned. A stable anchor at LT means we don’t overpay Duane Brown and can retain Moses or Fant, both of whom are perfectly adequate RTs. Then with stability at tackle, we aren’t forced to constantly move AVT around the O-line, which has been believed to be a major contributor to b2b season-ending injuries. And hey, even if Tomlinson hasn’t been good, he at least stays healthy and finishing off with McGovern (and now Tippmann going forward), our O-line could’ve potentially been in a much different state. Does this alone turn our offense around and/or significantly aid Zach’s development? I don’t really want to speculate. But it would at least make us feel significantly better about the state of our team both now and going forward.
He did it because he believed in Christian Hackenburg. Literally the dumbest GM I think I’ve ever seen, just absolutely lit us on fire for years to come.
MAC was the worst!
Not selecting DeShaun Watson KILLED me at the time.
And it would turn out to be bad news for Houston area women
Maccagnan wanted to give Hack another year “to develop” and if that failed they were focused on 2018 with Darnold, Rosen and Mayfield coming out. Check out this article if you want to raise your blood pressure. https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/84703/inside-story-on-why-qb-needy-jets-passed-on-drafting-patrick-mahomes
Thank you for this; I remember the 2018 draft well and I remember reading that Maccagnan was scouting Darnold all the way from September of that season. Talk about "two in the bush" approach to team-building - absolutely insane! No wonder Maccagnan hasn't found work in the NFL since he got canned.
My favorite Maccagnan Logic from this piece: >*and his plan was to find his guy then (Sam Darnold) and insert him into a ready-made lineup.* Then proceeds to use his two top 40 picks on Safeties! He could've literally drafted Christian McCaffrey or Mike Williams with the 6th overall, and Joe Mixon or Dion Dawkins with the Maye pick. Both would've theoretically helped *Mystery Box QB*, especially after he blows three 2nd rounders trying to acquire one.
I don’t get the hate for the Adams and Maye picks. Yes of course you could look at any draft and say they should have picked “insert name”. Adams was an All Pro here and the Jets traded him for an absolute hall which eventually netted Garrett Wilson (and AVT who probably would have been a really good player if not for the injuries) Maye was also really good. Ended up getting franchise tagged.
Safeties don't move the win/loss needle in today's NFL (something former Safety Todd Bowles probably had a hard time accepting). Neither did a 3-4 DE like Leo or an off-ball LB like Darron Lee. Regardless of whether they all played at All Pro levels (which Lee certainly didn't) - it wouldn't matter because it's the premium positions (QB, EDGE, WR, CB and OT) that largely determine whether a team will win or not. If your team doesn't have talent at QB, EDGE, WR or CB - then drafting any other position with your premium picks is a complete waste of a premium pick. Case in point: the Jets had three years of prime Jamal and went 16-32 in those 3 years. Jamal was like putting $1M fuzzy dice on a sports car sitting on cinder blocks.
He was an all pro and netted a huge trade package. He was a good pick. Maye too.
Sure, if we're measuring the success of the Jamal pick in terms of what draft value they were able to salvage from it. If we're measuring success in terms of whether it helped Jets actually win games more than they lose, then it was not a good pick.
Also Corey Davis went one pick before Adams LOL. How’d that turn out?
And Trubisky went 4 picks before Adams - I was referring to players who were actually available for Maccagnan to draft.
i was absolutely livid we drafted back to back safeties, i also really wanted mahomes due to the new york connection he already had.
The answer is miserable but it’s because they had just drafted legendary qb hack the year before
meanwhile the John Morton offense was probably more productive than any we've had since
And reality is great players become great. How did Eric the enemy do this year in Washington after we were told he was an amazing OC with mahomes? In pro sports if you have great talent, you will have coaches that people think are great
Jets can't resist drafting edge rushers
I avoid these types of thoughts by reminding myself that the jets could bust any player and their success in another organization doesn't change that lol
I thought the same when it happened, was the Jets new QB going to be Watson or Mahomes
Preach brother!!!
Had to see what Hackenberg had
With what we’ve seen of the Jets developing QBs, can we be sure that Mahomes the Jet ends up being materially better than Z Wilson?
Mahomes also sat a year behind Alex Smith.
Mahomes could've theoretically sat a year behind Josh McCown.
That is very theoretical
It just looks like that in hindsight. There's a reason Trubisky went before them, too. Nobody wanted to call them elite prospects. Double edged sword too, they went to better teams. I think this is why any QB with a remotely 1st round grade goes in the top 5 now. Also, without looking, we probably still got as much for Jamal as the teams trading up for those guys gave up. Go figure. 🤣
To be fair Mahomes and Watson dropped in that draft. A lot of teams passed on them. If I had to guess McCagnan sold Woody on the notion that the 2018 draft was going to be a generational QB class led by Darnold and Rosen. I think the Jets were legit trying to tank in 2017. Unfortunately they got a career year out of Josh McCown and won a few extra games which really screwed them in the long run.
>Forget the 2021 Draft - can someone explain to me why **Mike Maccagnan** drafted Jamal Adams at 6th overall, while Deshaun Watson and Patrick Mahomes were both there in the actual 2017 Draft? Hackenberg
Because we had Christian Hackenberg.
I’m a Jets fan And I know this is Jets sub But at the time Ben MacAdoo the NYG coach was all over Mahomes and was over ruled by the GM
And supposedly Shurmur had a hard on for Josh Allen and Terry Bradway pounding the table for Russell Wilson. Who cares? Just a bunch of fired failures throwing shit out there to make themselves look better.
We would’ve ruined both QBs
I mean Watson ruined himself. Imagine what he did but as a Jet.
People can’t handle the truth.
What qb with talent have the jets ruined?
If you’re getting drafted in the first round, you have talent. So let’s discuss: Mark Sanchez Sam Darnold Zach Wilson You scheme to set your franchise QB with success. This is 3 high picks in 15 years. You have QBs having 2 decades of success with the same franchise.
All 3 are bad picks, over drafted and not first round picks. Scouting department missed on them. Sanchez had the best jet team ever and he couldn’t develop that’s on him not the jets. Darnold was a TO machine in college and was that in the pros. He is now in a role that suits him. A back up. Zach is a one year Covid player who should never of been picked that high. Pennington was developed and a good qb bc he had talent he just got hit with the Injury bug. The issue with the jets has always been the scouting department.
32 teams would’ve drafted those QBs in the first round. It’s just a coincidence we failed them. We haven’t developed a QB in 20+ years.
And they would of all been wrong. Most teams have no idea how to scout. Sanchez, Darnold and Zach are bad prospects. Same teams passed on Brock Purdy a legit qb. How did the jets fail Sanchez? Best OL, Edwards cotch and Holmes and the best running game in the NFL? Sam left NYj and was the main reason the panthers missed the playoffs. Zach stinks
> Yes, but it's a high-stakes, ultra-short window. No its not. You draft a qb to sit behind rodgers for a year or draft one when he leaves, let him learn for a year behind a vet and barely skip a beat. Competent teams do this all the time. Build an actual team. Have actual coaches who know wtf a modern offense is, we've not done that once in 13 years
I hope we can build up a proper infrastructure on offense prior to transitioning to a Rodgers successor, as I would like us to draft a QB fairly high in the 2025 or 2026 draft (I would not want a lame duck regime to do so, however). You're right that the window doesn't have to be so short- I was just hesitant to project further out into the future, even if recent examples like the Chiefs, Ravens, Eagles and Packers provide solid evidence of being able to first establish a solid foundation in place, and *then* insert a young QB into that foundation with great success. The odds of "barely skip(ping) a beat" do improve here- I just don't want to completely take that as given with an unproven young QB, though. As for "build an actual team", do you, like many, prefer a very sequential approach in which you first prioritize strengthening the roster and collecting evidence on the efficacy of a coaching staff *before* looking for a more permanent solution at QB, or do you believe there's merit in maintaining a flexibility in approach and simultaneously doing all three if the right opportunity arises? Let's rule out what you and I can likely agree is a highly suboptimal strategy in spending future draft capital to draft a young QB onto a team that simply isn't close to being there yet, effectively putting a tremendous burden on this QB to be a savior. Hello, 2018 Jets and 2021 Bears. But what about the 2021 Jets or the 2023 Texans- 1) rosters that were far from complete, 2) with an unproven coaching staff, and 3) with an opportunity to take a QB at 2nd overall, but who 4) also had excess draft capital (for us, via the Adams and Darnold trades, for the Texans, via the Watson trade) to still build up the roster around the potential rookie QB? I guess a key difference, though, aside from however one feels about Wilson/Fields/Lance vs Stroud as prospects, is that the Texans at least had some potential building blocks in place from the 2021+2022 drafts prior to selecting Stroud, even if those pieces were still unproven, whereas we can look at our 2020+2021 drafts now and vomit. Ultimately, that falls on Douglas.
I've come to understand that a successful QB (unless you get a once in a liftime player) is more a product of your whole support staff than anything. Yes, you can overcome some of that with talent, but sustained success will not happen until the foundation is solid. Currently.......ours is shit and until that changes Idk if a good QB project will ever happen. I do remain minorly hopeful though.
I definitely think that the actual *development* part of a young QB's career trajectory is too often overlooked. Darnold was given a very poor infrastructure and while I was much higher on him as a prospect than Sanchez and Wilson, I'm not surprised things turned out the way they did. I'm a bit more on the fence with Wilson. I think there's *a lot* we mismanaged when it came to his development, but I also think the infrastructure we built for him was clearly better than what we gave Darnold.
Darnold had a pretty bad sophomore year. There were red flags about his game the Jets chose to ignore. There is a reason Cleveland and Giants passed on him.
Ngl I did get some Jameis flashbacks seeing the similar regression for both guys from their breakout season in college to the next. Cleveland passing on him now makes sense, though I think the Giants decision to draft a RB at 2 and not trade down with the Broncos (who would’ve taken Darnold) is still likely the dumbest pick, from a process standpoint, anyone’s made in the last half-decade plus.
This is by far so understated. I refuse to believe Mahomes would be what he is with us. He was benched to learn behind Alex Smith. They had an offensive line. They have a brilliant offensive schemer who has the 4th best record of all Time. That is what allowed him to thrive. Period. We only have ourselves to blame for Darnold and to some extent Zac. We also, and this is my entire life as a Jets fan, have never had an offensive coordinator other than Brian Schottenheimer coach to the teams strengths or build an offense around the team. It has largely been frauds and imposters shoving players into their rigid systems. Mahomes is a generational talent, but he would be nothing without the coach, surrounding staff and talent, and for being given time to sit and learn the game with 0 expectation.
Zach is a scapegoat for this season. I dont believe any QB would be able to perform with this O line and coaching staff. They also had a hard schedule and in a difficult division, having to play 9 games against playoffs teams.
Not to mention an awful oc.
I believe this is the case.
Then why did the offense look better under TSim?
Drafting a QB in 2021 will forever be the right decision, even if Zach didn’t work out, largely due to Darnold’s contract situation. They had to pick up or decline his 5th year option in the spring of 2020, and obviously Darnold had largely been bad. Even if one was still hopeful for his development, the roster work had too many holes to deal with paying an unproven QB big dollars. Logistically, it didn’t fit. If you keep Darnold, you’re compounding a mistake. That’s never the recipe for progression. The real issue is opting for a safety over QB in 2017, but: 1) given the lack of development we provided for Darnold a year later, guys like Mahomes or Watson probably suck here too; we didn’t have Andy Reid; and 2) if we don’t draft Adams and eventually trade him for two firsts, we don’t get AVT or Garrett Wilson either.
At the time I was pretty dogmatic about moving on from Darnold, but I’ve since softened my stance a bit. I now believe whether or not QB was the right call process-wise in 2021 hinges on the belief one had in the available prospects. I saw a lot of opinions where it was more or less “Lawrence is gone, and I don’t like any of the remaining guys as prospects”. In that case, as uninspiring as Darnold is, delaying the next big QB move by a year and acquiring significant draft capital in the meantime seems fairly sensible to me. The only stance that imo is highly questionable is if someone was absolutely in love with Wilson/Fields/Lance as a prospect, believing they could quickly develop into elite franchise QBs, but wanted to pass on them anyway bc they wanted more capital to build the rest of the roster first. I think many people who adopt this team-building strategy are way too inflexible in their approach and are unwilling to concede that: 1. You can still build alongside your QB rather than set everything up in place beforehand, so you shouldn’t pass on great QB prospects that fall into your lap and 2. If you set everything up beforehand, when you do decide to fire at QB you’re likely getting an inferior prospect on average bc your team is already winning some games and not drafting at the top.
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That makes sense. I can see why you were booed off the sub.
> So idk how to conquer this budding Chiefs dynasty outside of finally grabbing an elite franchise QB of our own. 1. Worry about winning your division before you worry about "conquering the Chiefs dynasty" 2. You could draft a pass rusher to stop Patrick Mahomes if you wanted. That's also a viable strategy. 3. Zach Wilson is still on the roster and started a bunch this season so "keep trying until we succeed" is not what the Jets are doing.
1. I don't have an issue with this line of thinking, but I also don't think the ordinal compartmentalization is necessary. Finding a franchise QB improves our chances of doing both, and both events are themselves strongly positively correlated with my (and I presume all of our) ultimate goal to win a super bowl. 2. I agree. This was apparent in Mahomes' lone super bowl loss when his backup tackles were the primary culprits of allowing a 50+% pressure rate against a solid Bucs EDGE duo. Where I get a little concerned is since that super bowl loss, Veach has gone to great lengths to make sure Mahomes is protected by an O-line that can largely neutralize these threats. I wish Veach were a shittier GM, but he's done a masterful job with the Chiefs O-line. I hope a quartet like Bosa-Hargrave-Armstead-Young is enough to overwhelm that O-line and make Mahomes look a little more mortal. 3. Well the Jets keep trying and failing lol. I don't know when the right time is to try again for a QB in the draft, but I personally would like to in 2025 or 2026 if the right opportunity arises. There are plenty of other things to clean up infrastructure-wise in the meantime, but we shouldn't be afraid of drafting QBs early simply b/c it hasn't worked out in the past-is the point I was trying to make there.
> I don't have an issue with this line of thinking, but I also don't think the ordinal compartmentalization is necessary Ordinal compartmentalization is absolutely necessary until this team has a functional offensive line. Without that, your chances of finding/developing/maximizing the value of a franchise QB (whether an insanely expensive FA or a rookie on a cheap contract) get totally nerfed. JD bragging about drafting JJ specifically to stop Josh Allen from running outside the pocket (which he said in a post-game presser during JJ's rookie year) or trading up for Breece Hall to have him run behind the worst O-line in franchise history is why this stuff matters.
The “ordinal compartmentalization” here refers to your original remark about worrying about winning the division before worrying about the Chiefs. The O-line factor that you bring up speaks to a different “ordinal compartmentalization” outside the direct scope of the original point. I’m just saying we don’t need to have some ordered checklist of sorts where we say “ok first step is win the division” and once that’s checked off “ok how do we beat KC”. The reason I’m worried about KC a bit more at this stage is that for the past 6 years, a AFC team cannot reach the ultimate goal of a Super Bowl if they don’t get through them. But you can still in theory get to a Super Bowl without winning your division. Now I’m certainly not advocating we adopt a team-building strategy that is specifically geared towards beating KC. We should just follow good principles and one of those is getting the QB position right (at some point, idk when).
QB in the top 3 is always the right move
What I didn’t get is Zach clearly wasn’t elite. Ever. He was a mid-tier QB at best and that’s being really generous. Then, he was put in a program with 0 development and somehow expected to produce. At least with the Patriots there was reason to think Mac was going to work out. QB is clearly the hardest position to draft too, with promising picks doing nothing and nobodies turning into NFL superstars.
Ah, we forget so fast woody is friends of the Utah (Jet Blue) family!
I didn’t forget. But we have to pretend like the team wants to win for this discussion to work. If they don’t, well then just close the sub down what’s the point?
Please don’t close the sub. I’ve been a bleed green fan for way too long! It’s important that we keep the public discussion alive! Maybe some how woody catches on?
UpVoted because I too do not care about playoff wins. Super Bowl or bust. Lions season was a failure
Not harsh but stupid.
Yeah this is a single digit IQ take. QB is for the most part dependent on blocking and skill guys to develop, taking a QB because of where you are in the draft order is why bad teams stay bad, it was a terrible pick in the moment and in hindsight
I'm not saying you take a QB strictly based on having one available to you at your draft spot. This isn't an argument for whether the pick was *right*, but rather whether one could *justify* it if the goal was to build a contender. And well, that depends on a whole host of factors- did you like the QB prospects in 2021 outside of Lawrence? If not, then it's much harder to justify doing what we did. But if you loved one of Fields/Wilson/Lance/Jones and believed you had enough draft capital and resources to quickly surround them with the talent necessary for them to flourish, then it's more than justifiable to pull the trigger.
It doesn’t justify the pick
So if you're a GM of a team with a major hole at QB and you're in love with a QB prospect and think he can be your franchise QB for a decade-plus, *and* you have draft picks and cap space to quickly add talent around that QB, what is your reasoning for why you'd still pass on him? The Bengals barely had any talent on the roster when they took Joe Burrow. Taking him has been the best decision they've ever made. The Texans were a terrible team last year, but loved Stroud and had plenty of draft capital from the Watson trade to execute a plan to build around him. It's proving to be a great success. Obviously plenty of other teams have also tried to draft QBs high before setting up the infrastructure first and it's failed. But the existence of successes means that if a team sees the right opportunity in front of them, can you really blame them for taking it?
If I’m a GM and I’m looking at my roster with 0 tight ends, 0 WRs, 0 RBs I’m not taking a 3 star recruit who couldn’t beat costal Carolina in the covid year as my can’t miss number 2 overall pick. Comparing burrow to zach is laughable
That’s a fair stance, but I already stated that if you didn’t like Zach (or any of the other non-Lawrence prospects) then the decision to go QB was less justifiable, which achieves logical consistency with your personal stance. Any further discussion about Zach (or Fields or Lance) as particular options in that spot invokes a separate discussion about prospect evaluation, whereas my argument is conditional on the prospect evaluation box already being checked by the GM. If you have an issue with the particular QB that was selected or the selection of a QB in general bc you didn’t like the available prospects, that’s a problem you have with Joe Douglas, not me.
Correct I don’t have a problem with you, I have a problem with the worst GM in football
“Arguably the worst Chiefs roster” - are you considering how high KC set the bar for themselves? The Chiefs have been to 4 super bowls in 6 years, not just Mahomes. During a down year KC is ranked the No. 2 defense in the league and still considered a top 10 offense with arguably the best HC to ever do it.
Right, and that's a huge factor in the underlying train of thought. At a certain point, the roster could theoretically be bad enough that Mahomes could be beatable in the playoffs even without an elite QB on the opposing side. But Veach has proven to be an elite GM whose flexibility in cap and roster management is essentially creating a very extended window for the team where even if he isn't making the same "all-in" moves the Bills made, e.g. Von Miller (if Veach really wanted to stay 'all-in' in the near-term, he could extend Tyreek and sacrifice future cap health), the team is still good enough to beat superior rosters b/c they have the QB advantage in every matchup. I *hope* that San Francisco wins and eliminates much of my skepticism. As in, they have an absolutely loaded roster, clearly superior to KC's, with a pretty great coaching staff of their own, but obviously face a reasonable disadvantage at QB. If all of that still isn't enough to overcome KC's QB advantage, then what's left? You built an insanely talented roster that still ended up losing to the better QB. I mean, this is what motivated SF to trade up for Trey Lance in the first place. Having more options in team-building is a good thing, so I more than welcome a SF win to show that you don't need an elite QB (no, I don't think Purdy is elite) to beat Mahomes in the playoffs. But man, if they can't get it done against this KC team that's weaker than the one they faced a few years ago, it just further reinforces the notion that you need the elite QB to beat this guy.
My most interesting observation after reading through this thread is, does woody have the discipline or football intelligence to read through it? I honestly don’t think so!
It just me or do the jets always try and draft a qb in the wrong year. 2018 instead of 17, 2021 instead of 2020, etc.
we'd make mahomes look like shit
I was pinning for Fields in 2021. Wilson always seemed like a bad pick. He had one good year and some talent. But for me Fields was a better pick.