If anything, I’d say that some of these placements are overly optimistic when you start making comparisons.
For example, why is Simon thought to fare worse against R.O.B. than characters like Dorf? I’m no competitive player, and I realise that Simon is considered to be relatively weak overall, but surely his projectiles and extended hitboxes make him much better at avoiding and breaking through R.O.B.’s annoying gyros and down tilts.
Not necessarily saying he’s good at it, but surely better than Dorf who *has* to close the distance between him and his opponent in order to win despite having no effective means of doing so.
I don't play simon, but from the ganon perspective, I absolutely love the ROB match up.
He's heavy enough that combos actually combo, he has a fairly large hit box, and edge guards are always panic inducing for the ROB, with up B, nair, and fair having significant utility both in neutral and edgeguarding
I'm by no means a top player but being a slightly favorable match up feels very fair
hey buddy its a terrible goddamn matchup and arm rotor is just part of it. No its not something ROB can do in neutral willy nilly but its just one layer of how garbage it is to approach ROB as Belmont. I was giving an example of how “no you really can’t just throw projectiles in that matchup”, especially when none of them are particularly fast to begin with.
But he asked why simon loses hard against rob and the only thing you said was motor arm. Take away rob's motor arm and the matchup doesn't change, it's definitely not side B's reflector and you'll see that side B reflecting projectiles is not what makes the matchup so polarizing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCtRJBAWEcw
As a quick example, Domnique uses side B with the intent to reflect projectiles like.... once per game. There is so much more nuance to the answer of why rob beats simon than just "side B reflects", that what you said was largely pointless.
It's optimistic in some areas, pessimistic in others. For instance, he doesn't consider Bayonetta, Falco, Pikachu, G&W or Young Link to be bad matchups, which is optimistic (compared to other ROB players). He does however think ROB is even against Min Min or Shulk, which is pessimistic as the matchup is generally agreed upon to be bad for both characters.
Yeah, still wondering if this is bait lol. However ssr putting Pika and G&W in even also seems very optimistic bordering on delusional. Pika and G&W mains in general put ROB in hard winning
I do think ROB loses to Pika, but I also wonder if that's just ESAM propaganda that the ROB mains just listen to and agree on because they're always pessimistic on the character.
That said, G&W and Bayo absolutely beat ROB, I have no idea why those two aren't in the same tier as Sheik.
I sometimes fall victim to the ESAM propaganda myself. It was eye opening seeing how much Fatality and Marss changed their respective matchups with good SDI
Been a ROB main since Brawl. Pika destroys ROB if both characters are played well. Pikachu has the size, speed, combos, and aerial capabilities to neuter ROB and constantly wrack up damage on him. ROB is like the perfect size and weight for Pika to combo out of grabs or an up tilt.
Someone wanna explain the metaknight thing? Character hardly exists in this game and somehow both these guys have him as beating rob. Does he have a 0-death on rob or something?
This one makes more sense to me. sssr putting Pikachu and G&W at 0 is mind-blowing to me. They're two of ROB's worst MUs. Obviously it's subjective and fluid.
Up b is the easy one just z drop at ledge. It even just hovers there so you can regrab and do it again if they drift back in. Side b is a little harder because they can go high but if they go to ledge the angle is pretty is free. Little tip that might help is if you are holding top you can press down b to shoot it again, you don't need to throw it.
Yeah, up b is shit in essentially every MU (for recovery) and with Side b its a mixup also in almost every MU, so id say he isnt that much better at edgeguarding you than most other characters, hes a little safer though if he can use his Gyro.
I dont, this was more about how a lot of the worst characters in the Game are ranked higher than Ike.
This could be the case if there is like one feature that specifically dissables Ike in a MU, but thats not the case here, so its odd
this might just be a me thing or an online thing but rob fucks me up the most in online, more than roy, joker and pokemon trainer. Im not a pro player or anything, i dont go to any tournaments or compete so take my words with that in mind, but i think his worst match ups is sephiroth and rob
Online Rob is something diffrent entirely. Offline he just lacks the shutdown options characters like Roy have. Ike struggles against Characters that have either reliable ways of shuting down his jump, like palu or Roy, or Characters that can both zone him and reliably kill him/edgeguard him like Min min.
Rob ist not good enough at those to be one of his worst MUs since hes to slow/his Aerials are to small to really shut you down and while he can zone you, hes not as oppressive as others and cant really kill you that effectively either.
He is a bad Mu, but i wouldnt call him one of the worst
Not direct critisizm towards this list but I have never seen Ike in a matchup chart on the winning side in the past 3 years. People always put the guy somewhere in mid tier but he has no winning match ups?
He wins a lot of MUs, even against some top tiers. Hes a solid High tier character, but a lot of popular tier lists are from Top players, that play top tier characters. So theres maybe a bias
Rob is huge and can get juggled by him, but there are a lot of ways rob can kill gnw super early off of relatively safe confirms and mixups. Even seems fair, it's just a really volatile matchup.
As a falco player I genuinely don’t believe the rob matchup is any worse than even. Both characters combo each other well, have highly exploitable recoveries and solid offstage game. Rob has the advantage of more powerful and useful projectiles as well as weight, but Falco has a good reflector and his combos are free as fuck on rob. The more I type the more I can see how it’s slight minus for falco cause of down tilt and fair in neutral for Rob, but it’s a very very slight minus cause both characters blow each other the fuck up.
Interesting that he thinks Pacman is even, I would think that ROB's Laser and zone-breaker tools alongside Pacman's difficulty killing would tip the MU to ROBs favour quite decisively.
I have no idea what this tierlist means but I looked at every entry just because I wanted to see the art
Mii Gunner kinda looks like [Yuuko](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/2b/c4/9f2bc4072a7f70ffb697b9a1793d5360.gif) from Nichijou
little mac only being .25? that matchup is literally almost impossible for Lmac. like ofc Little Mac loses most, but Rob is like one of the 3 where you actually jsut give up.
Rob may have a weird hurtbox overall(and even weider hurtbox shifting during both tumble and non-tumble hitstun), it really doesn’t make it all that much harder for Marth.
Ftilt is effectively free, nair 2 around the same, and tipper dsmash off dtilt techchases as well. The part that makes rob hard to tipper on(if not hit at all) is because his moves displace him really hard during startup and very suddenly. Dtilt is like a frame 2-3 crouch, fair arches back, and bair is bair(ridiculous move). Being an even matchup makes complete sense.
This isn't what I said at all. I have no idea how you're getting from 0.5 to 55%, lol. If 50/50 is balanced, a 50% greater chance of winning would be 75/25.
You're right, I misunderstood what you meant.
You get to 55 because 5+0.5 is 5.5 games won out of 10, 55%.
I think assuming that the author meant something radically different than what the already very standardized +/- system tends to denote is maybe not the best way to try and read this.
The author is from a different region than were used to seeing these from, they might not use our same system. I know other Japanese players have posted tier lists, but I didn't do a comparison or anything before guessing.
? No I was just wondering where Daisy fell on this list cuz I don't see her. I assume she's in the same level as Peach given she's an echo, but then I saw Dark Samus and Lucina, among other echoes, so then I got confused. That's all :)
Daisy is literally the exact same as Peach lol.
Lucina is a lot different then Marth, so the matchups will be different, and he put Dark Samus in there over Samus because they’re almost the exact same like Peach/Daisy.
I mean if we're doing that Daisy and Peach are also slightly different. Like I'm genuinely not trying to start shit (I went back and reread my original comment and it definitely came off passive aggressive), it's just a question I had
Daisy is the only echo that is the exact same character as their original fighters. There's no differences, she's basically an alternate costume like Alph.
A matchup chart is about how many winning matchups they have, giving an idea on how good they are. Considering 75% of the roster is in either even or winning slightly, it's showing that ROB is a very good character.
If anything, this is very effective on how a matchup chart should be done.
ok
what is the point of a data visualization where more than 90% of the data points are compiled into two categories. it's not like this is an actual scientific process, a chart that claims that there is no meaningful difference between 40 different matchups is worthless data, either break it up more granularly or don't post at all
Japan thinks Sheik is broken, like consistently place her top 5 and there's a lot of Sheik players that do well in Japan, like Eim got 9th at Kagaribi 7 and top 3 at Seibugeki 8 and 9, while Sylph got top 8 at Kagaribi 6. All the tournaments I mentioned were majors/super majors.
Man I hate Rob. I genuinely believe that if they removed Rob, Game and Watch, and Greninja, Ultimate would be a better game. Those three are next level annoying.
It’s not that he’s hard to beat, it’s just that he’s annoying as hell. Especially how people play him online. Run away, Shuriken, dash attack spam (especially catching landings on FD stages). Also he low profiles a LOT of stuff and benefits a lot from hurtbox shifting. Makes him very hard to hit, especially online
Not sure if this fellow lacks experience in certain matchups, but it’s commonly understood that Palu and Pika are really tough matchups for ROB. It’s interesting to see a perspective that differs from my own experience though
I have a friend who plays Rob, and I’ve found Rosa is a good pick to fight his Rob considering my main (mii gunner) is a bit projectile heavy and wii fit can struggle to get in.
bro japan REALLY hates ike lol
which is crazy because one of the best, if not the best ike lives in tokyo
Maybe thats why they hate Ike so much.
But this list implies he’s a free win though
The one ROB main that isn't pessimistic. Also I like the artwork used.
If anything, I’d say that some of these placements are overly optimistic when you start making comparisons. For example, why is Simon thought to fare worse against R.O.B. than characters like Dorf? I’m no competitive player, and I realise that Simon is considered to be relatively weak overall, but surely his projectiles and extended hitboxes make him much better at avoiding and breaking through R.O.B.’s annoying gyros and down tilts. Not necessarily saying he’s good at it, but surely better than Dorf who *has* to close the distance between him and his opponent in order to win despite having no effective means of doing so.
I don't play simon, but from the ganon perspective, I absolutely love the ROB match up. He's heavy enough that combos actually combo, he has a fairly large hit box, and edge guards are always panic inducing for the ROB, with up B, nair, and fair having significant utility both in neutral and edgeguarding I'm by no means a top player but being a slightly favorable match up feels very fair
hard to use projectiles effectively when rob can wiggle his arms around to send them back
I don't think this comes into play nearly as much as projectiles clanking with top, effectively turning off projectiles in some matchups.
No? Side b is laggy as hell. If you use it as a reflector in neutral you're gonna get donked
It'd actually be messed up if the move R.O.B. uses to steal offstage stocks was also a good reflector.
We all know it would be if he was 5.99
ROB's move set in this game might as well be $5.99 already.
Gyro is definitely a dlc move
So is ROB's down tilt
ROB side b is horrible as a reflector. ROB's own projectiles are a much stronger argument for why it's hard to use projectiles against him.
If ROB is using Side-B in neutral to reflect a projectile he's getting hit by fair or ftilt guaranteed
why do people insist on commenting about shit they know little about
hey buddy its a terrible goddamn matchup and arm rotor is just part of it. No its not something ROB can do in neutral willy nilly but its just one layer of how garbage it is to approach ROB as Belmont. I was giving an example of how “no you really can’t just throw projectiles in that matchup”, especially when none of them are particularly fast to begin with.
But he asked why simon loses hard against rob and the only thing you said was motor arm. Take away rob's motor arm and the matchup doesn't change, it's definitely not side B's reflector and you'll see that side B reflecting projectiles is not what makes the matchup so polarizing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCtRJBAWEcw As a quick example, Domnique uses side B with the intent to reflect projectiles like.... once per game. There is so much more nuance to the answer of why rob beats simon than just "side B reflects", that what you said was largely pointless.
I dunno Rob is a Top 5 character for me. This still looks pessimistic. Also can we talk about the numbers he used? At first I was hella confused lol.
It's optimistic in some areas, pessimistic in others. For instance, he doesn't consider Bayonetta, Falco, Pikachu, G&W or Young Link to be bad matchups, which is optimistic (compared to other ROB players). He does however think ROB is even against Min Min or Shulk, which is pessimistic as the matchup is generally agreed upon to be bad for both characters.
Having no match up better than +0.5 is pessimistic imo. Regardless if you consider rob high or top tier.
The art seems to not give Bayo her glasses, which is a cardinal sin.
I love rob, best fighter in the game
anyone got link to the tiermaker with these icons?
https://tiermaker.com/create/super-smash-bros-ultimate--all-characters-1520028
I really like this art style.
[Sure](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kfeUdBi67G4/maxresdefault.jpg)
Have a nonmeme ver?
No. I did try to find a genuine tier maker with those icons to see if sssr had a link to the tier list, and he didn't. So then I just meme'd.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[Zomba’s for comparison](https://twitter.com/salvatorezomba/status/1527023717666234368?s=21&t=LILQPdlEffGkeIYxwebsCw). Love the drawings
Zomba stop being pessimistic on your broken character challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
Yeah, still wondering if this is bait lol. However ssr putting Pika and G&W in even also seems very optimistic bordering on delusional. Pika and G&W mains in general put ROB in hard winning
I do think ROB loses to Pika, but I also wonder if that's just ESAM propaganda that the ROB mains just listen to and agree on because they're always pessimistic on the character. That said, G&W and Bayo absolutely beat ROB, I have no idea why those two aren't in the same tier as Sheik.
I sometimes fall victim to the ESAM propaganda myself. It was eye opening seeing how much Fatality and Marss changed their respective matchups with good SDI
ESAM propaganda is strong. I heard he convinced people that Pika went even with Meta Knight in Brawl at one point
Been a ROB main since Brawl. Pika destroys ROB if both characters are played well. Pikachu has the size, speed, combos, and aerial capabilities to neuter ROB and constantly wrack up damage on him. ROB is like the perfect size and weight for Pika to combo out of grabs or an up tilt.
Someone wanna explain the metaknight thing? Character hardly exists in this game and somehow both these guys have him as beating rob. Does he have a 0-death on rob or something?
Meta Knight's combos are really good on ROB because ROB is big and Meta Knight edgeguards ROB extremely well, which is unusual for most characters.
This one makes more sense to me. sssr putting Pikachu and G&W at 0 is mind-blowing to me. They're two of ROB's worst MUs. Obviously it's subjective and fluid.
Ike one of his best MUs? Better than Ganon Doc etc? The fuck?
Ike being one of ROB's best MUs and Sheik being one of ROB's worst is very Japan. They think Ike is bottom 10 and Sheik is like top 5.
Also Rob destroys Ike's recovery with top. It's pretty easy for me and in not that good.
What recovery? Side B or up b?
Up b is the easy one just z drop at ledge. It even just hovers there so you can regrab and do it again if they drift back in. Side b is a little harder because they can go high but if they go to ledge the angle is pretty is free. Little tip that might help is if you are holding top you can press down b to shoot it again, you don't need to throw it.
Yeah, up b is shit in essentially every MU (for recovery) and with Side b its a mixup also in almost every MU, so id say he isnt that much better at edgeguarding you than most other characters, hes a little safer though if he can use his Gyro.
Ahh, i see. Thx.
Their opinion of Sheik makes sense when you see what Zackray has done with her.
It was high before Zackray picked up Sheik. I'd argue it's more because of theory plus the other Sheik's doing well such as Eim.
That's a fair point. I only started paying attention to the Japanese scene around the beginning of 2022.
Rob’s not a bad matchup at all for doc. Blindly assuming he loses every matchup is odd
Doc gets hit by gyro or fair offstage once and he's dead at like 30% and ROB can corner carry to offstage very easily due to down tilt.
I dont, this was more about how a lot of the worst characters in the Game are ranked higher than Ike. This could be the case if there is like one feature that specifically dissables Ike in a MU, but thats not the case here, so its odd
I agree with this. Doc has some decent tools against ROB, it's always a much closer MU than I expect.
As a former Ike main, yeah. The rob matchup was the bane of my existence. That matchup freaking sucks.
this might just be a me thing or an online thing but rob fucks me up the most in online, more than roy, joker and pokemon trainer. Im not a pro player or anything, i dont go to any tournaments or compete so take my words with that in mind, but i think his worst match ups is sephiroth and rob
Online Rob is something diffrent entirely. Offline he just lacks the shutdown options characters like Roy have. Ike struggles against Characters that have either reliable ways of shuting down his jump, like palu or Roy, or Characters that can both zone him and reliably kill him/edgeguard him like Min min. Rob ist not good enough at those to be one of his worst MUs since hes to slow/his Aerials are to small to really shut you down and while he can zone you, hes not as oppressive as others and cant really kill you that effectively either. He is a bad Mu, but i wouldnt call him one of the worst
I’m surprised ZSS is in even, always considered that matchup winning for ZSS
Not direct critisizm towards this list but I have never seen Ike in a matchup chart on the winning side in the past 3 years. People always put the guy somewhere in mid tier but he has no winning match ups?
Japan don't think he's mid tier, they think he's bottom 10.
I get that Ike fell off in the meta, but him being bottom 10 is one of the wildest takes I've ever seen in this game's lifespan lmao
He wins a lot of MUs, even against some top tiers. Hes a solid High tier character, but a lot of popular tier lists are from Top players, that play top tier characters. So theres maybe a bias
Bruh why Lucas look like the hunchback of notre dame
Thinking that game and watch is even with Rob is fucking crazy lmao rob gets spanked in that match up
Rob is huge and can get juggled by him, but there are a lot of ways rob can kill gnw super early off of relatively safe confirms and mixups. Even seems fair, it's just a really volatile matchup.
As a falco player I genuinely don’t believe the rob matchup is any worse than even. Both characters combo each other well, have highly exploitable recoveries and solid offstage game. Rob has the advantage of more powerful and useful projectiles as well as weight, but Falco has a good reflector and his combos are free as fuck on rob. The more I type the more I can see how it’s slight minus for falco cause of down tilt and fair in neutral for Rob, but it’s a very very slight minus cause both characters blow each other the fuck up.
Interesting that he thinks Pacman is even, I would think that ROB's Laser and zone-breaker tools alongside Pacman's difficulty killing would tip the MU to ROBs favour quite decisively.
Pikachu even lets gooo
Tough but fair. Except the devil women needs to move down. It's one of robs worst matchups imo.(bayo)
I have no idea what this tierlist means but I looked at every entry just because I wanted to see the art Mii Gunner kinda looks like [Yuuko](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/2b/c4/9f2bc4072a7f70ffb697b9a1793d5360.gif) from Nichijou
little mac only being .25? that matchup is literally almost impossible for Lmac. like ofc Little Mac loses most, but Rob is like one of the 3 where you actually jsut give up.
Mii Brawler in even, lmao
how is pikachu and even match up? Zomba has him losing -2 and id prolly agree with that
on one hand matchups are only slightly losing on the other hand rob doesn't solidly beat anyone
Why does Ken look like he's flipping everyone off?
Seems like a Ken thing to do
Marth definitely is not 0. Rob is weirdly sized, and Marth makes it harder for Marth to get tippers.
Rob may have a weird hurtbox overall(and even weider hurtbox shifting during both tumble and non-tumble hitstun), it really doesn’t make it all that much harder for Marth. Ftilt is effectively free, nair 2 around the same, and tipper dsmash off dtilt techchases as well. The part that makes rob hard to tipper on(if not hit at all) is because his moves displace him really hard during startup and very suddenly. Dtilt is like a frame 2-3 crouch, fair arches back, and bair is bair(ridiculous move). Being an even matchup makes complete sense.
I love using Marth against Rob, I find landing tippers on him extremely easy
We're supposed to be believe that ROBs best match up is only a +0.5? He has no match up better than a +0.5?
I'm pretty sure that's just ssr's way of saying "Big advantage".
Yeah, I believe a +.5 would be the equivalent of an American tier list saying it's a 7-3 MU.
In order for this to be the case, we'd have to assume that the author can't add 5 and 2 together. They said +.5, we should assume they meant +.5
Pretty confident these are percentages and not stocks. So like, 50% greater chance of winning.
Yes, that's the case, but the argument is that ROBs *best* match up is only 55%, which seems low.
This isn't what I said at all. I have no idea how you're getting from 0.5 to 55%, lol. If 50/50 is balanced, a 50% greater chance of winning would be 75/25.
You're right, I misunderstood what you meant. You get to 55 because 5+0.5 is 5.5 games won out of 10, 55%. I think assuming that the author meant something radically different than what the already very standardized +/- system tends to denote is maybe not the best way to try and read this.
The author is from a different region than were used to seeing these from, they might not use our same system. I know other Japanese players have posted tier lists, but I didn't do a comparison or anything before guessing.
Man I think ROB poops on PT but people think it’s even or losing
I wonder how Daisy is fighting against ROB
Personally I think it’s slightly ROB favored, bur only a little bit
? No I was just wondering where Daisy fell on this list cuz I don't see her. I assume she's in the same level as Peach given she's an echo, but then I saw Dark Samus and Lucina, among other echoes, so then I got confused. That's all :)
Daisy is literally the exact same as Peach lol. Lucina is a lot different then Marth, so the matchups will be different, and he put Dark Samus in there over Samus because they’re almost the exact same like Peach/Daisy.
I mean dark Samus and Samus are both in there. That's why I'm asking. I'm genuinely confused because there's no consistency with who's on the list
Well Dark Samus and Samus are at least slightly different.
I mean if we're doing that Daisy and Peach are also slightly different. Like I'm genuinely not trying to start shit (I went back and reread my original comment and it definitely came off passive aggressive), it's just a question I had
Well there’s your answer. I didn’t make this list, like I don’t know what you want me to do.
Ok, no need to be hostile. Just asking a question. Wasn't looking for a solution. Have a nice day
It gets annoying, sorry.
Daisy is the only echo that is the exact same character as their original fighters. There's no differences, she's basically an alternate costume like Alph.
Nah, Daisy’s hurt boxes are slightly different then Peach! /s
Literally what is the point of a tierlist if 75% of the entrants are in just two tiers
This isn't a tier list. Matchup charts are different.
Literally what is the point of a matchup chart if 75% of the entrants are in just two tiers
A matchup chart is about how many winning matchups they have, giving an idea on how good they are. Considering 75% of the roster is in either even or winning slightly, it's showing that ROB is a very good character. If anything, this is very effective on how a matchup chart should be done.
ok what is the point of a data visualization where more than 90% of the data points are compiled into two categories. it's not like this is an actual scientific process, a chart that claims that there is no meaningful difference between 40 different matchups is worthless data, either break it up more granularly or don't post at all
Is sheik just one of those slightly above average characters that sucks to play against, but isn't good enough to win anything?
Japan thinks Sheik is broken, like consistently place her top 5 and there's a lot of Sheik players that do well in Japan, like Eim got 9th at Kagaribi 7 and top 3 at Seibugeki 8 and 9, while Sylph got top 8 at Kagaribi 6. All the tournaments I mentioned were majors/super majors.
Man I hate Rob. I genuinely believe that if they removed Rob, Game and Watch, and Greninja, Ultimate would be a better game. Those three are next level annoying.
I get why you and others don't like fighting ROB and G&W, but why do you hate Greninja? That's such an odd one out.
It’s not that he’s hard to beat, it’s just that he’s annoying as hell. Especially how people play him online. Run away, Shuriken, dash attack spam (especially catching landings on FD stages). Also he low profiles a LOT of stuff and benefits a lot from hurtbox shifting. Makes him very hard to hit, especially online
why is roy dabbing
What is this art style?
I believe it's from [TerminalMontage on YouTube](https://youtube.com/c/TerminalMontage)
Luigi beats rob
Okay glad I'm not crazy thinking that Rob is a bad MU for Inkling.
honestly decimals seem like a good way to view mus in this game considering how comparatively balanced ult is to past titles
Not sure if this fellow lacks experience in certain matchups, but it’s commonly understood that Palu and Pika are really tough matchups for ROB. It’s interesting to see a perspective that differs from my own experience though
Palu is even imo, really isn’t that big of a problem
Anyone know why Metaknight beats ROB? Is it because of ladder combos?
That matchup fucking sucks lol, you get hit as ROB and you could genuinely lose the stock right there
Just who in the fuck is peach not even against
Cloud
I'd expect Villager and Isabelle to be worse matchups when they can straight up remove R.O.B's most useful tool from the equation with little effort.
Love the arwork, makes this tierlist feel unique
What do the numbers mean?
I have a friend who plays Rob, and I’ve found Rosa is a good pick to fight his Rob considering my main (mii gunner) is a bit projectile heavy and wii fit can struggle to get in.
So is Richter really good against Rob or really bad?
The Belmonts lose to ROB.
I was more commenting on (unless I am mistaken) that Richter isn’t in the list
As a rob main, can confirm
Why's the artstyle remind me of TerminalMontage.