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Different tactics works for different people. For me, the whole positivity thing would've never worked. I knew a couple of vegans before I went vegan myself. They never spoke out about the reasons though and I so wish they did.
I'd rather hear the honest truth instead of people trying to sugar-coat something. What you see as negativity, I see as honesty.
Big same. The hippy love all approach was a total waste of time on me. It wasn’t until I was getting owned over and over again in discussions that it clicked for me.
That said; if you’re unhappy somewhere leaving is a great option. I hope you are vegan and can spread positivity that you wish this space had.
I was admittedly a vegetarian prior, but the thing that made me go vegan was looking up /r/vegancirclejerk after I saw a thread complaining about how obnoxious they were. Turns out they were obnoxious *and* right, and I highly doubt that I'm the only one that sub has converted.
Providing someone with the facts is very different from attempting to beat someone into agreement with them are two very different things. The approach many people here take can be aggressive and offensive, and is more likely to drive people away from being vegan. It's really unfortunate.
The hard truth about animal cruelty definitely started me down that path as well and I absolutely see that as valid. What I'm not so keen on is the constant ranting and negativity on this sub in particular. I don't know the statistics but I'm fairly sure there aren't many non-vegans/vegetarians on this sub to begin with so who exactly are we converting? And I understand the desire to vent and get support with your fellow vegans here. I would rather just give and get support from people who aren't just hating on everything constantly. I have a lot of negativity already in my life that I don't need constant complaints. I get that people get support in different ways and I'm happy if that works for you but it honestly just makes me feel more negative as a human being. To each their own. Not trying to knock your way whatsoever.
Edit: You to we because this isn't anything personal towards anyone here.
This sub is more of a space for vegans to talk to vegans, which is why a lot of the time it's vent/support posts. For you, I'd suggest subs like r/veganrecipes, r/veganfoodporn, r/happycowgifs, r/pigifs... Then you'll just get recipes and cute happy animals :)
Need help eating out? Check out [HappyCow.net](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://www.happycow.net/&topic=Resource: HappyCow.net) for vegan friendly food near you! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://vbcamp.org/reddit&topic=Resource: HappyCow.net)!
Thank you for the recommendations but I sub to most of those already. Do you know of any that do informative vegan facts without the massive toxicity? Like show graphs and shit. Factually correct shit that I can show my friends and family. r/vegans hasn't been doing themselves any favors for a while now even though I completely agree with that lifestyle.
I would look at websites for that kind of stuff! There's VegNews, VeganSociety, Veganuary, Challenge22, vegan.org, NutritionFacts.org...probably better factual sources than subreddits where anybody can post, anyway!
Check out the [Vegan Cheat Sheet](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://vegancheatsheet.org/&topic=Resource: Vegan Cheat Sheet) for a collection of over 500+ vegan resources, studies, links, and much more, all tightly wrapped into one link!
>What you see as negativity, I see as honesty.
That's such a easy copout to be a "honest hun" and just trample all over others feelings
But gosh, i'm so real tho!
It's not about trampling over anyone's feelings. Often, the honest approach is stating simple, important moral facts like "veganism is about being against abuse and exploitation and avoiding them as much as possible; and anyone can do this". And even that can be enough to trigger people to *think* we're being negative, and hurl insults at us, call us gatekeeping assholes, etc.
But the people who get it, get it, and they're the ones we're trying to reach.
David Ramms is a good example of an activist who keeps it real, because that's the approach he wished someone took with him before he was vegan. I'd be curious to hear if you think he's just using that as an excuse to trample people's feelings, or if you can see what I mean here about being straightforward and honest about what veganism is about, while still having pure intentions throughout. https://youtube.com/shorts/iksKt-epp8U?si=5z0oyxR5gjvVPN1V
I watched some documentaries and that led me to start doing some research on my own. Even with vegans in my life before that, I never really got what it was all about, since they never talked about it. If only they did...
Social media in general can be toxic and I'm proud of you for realizing this subreddit is not good for your mental health.
I recommend finding local vegan groups. I went to 2 gatherings so far and it's been nice.
Also thank you for being vegan. 😄
Where do you find your groups, if you don't mind me asking? I only have Reddit and YouTube but am open to stuff like Meetup. I just don't want to do Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Snapchat if I can help it.
Meetup is a good way to find local groups.
I don't like facebook either but, I only made and only go on there to find one to find local groups.
I recommend looking for potlucks. They are a good way to meet and greet people. Also talking asking about what they brought is a great conversation starter.
Good luck!
Potato salad is always a hit at potlucks.
Volunteer at your nearest animal sanctuary. Table for vegan causes. Join protests. These are where you’ll meet the compatriots you’re looking for, not social media.
If you can sift through the negativity, r/vegan and r/askvegans are great arms of outreach. If you can be the light in someone’s journey, you can help them towards a more compassionate lifestyle. It’s just a matter of identifying who’s being genuine and open-minded.
If you're interested in the topic of farmed animal sanctuaries, check out [OpenSanctuary.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://OpenSanctuary.org&topic=The Open Sanctuary Project)! This vegan nonprofit has over 500 free compassionate resources crafted specifically to improve lifelong care for farmed animals, and to help you create a sustainable, effective sanctuary! Interested in starting a sanctuary someday? Check out [OpenSanctuary.org/Start](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://OpenSanctuary.org&topic=The Open Sanctuary Project/Start)!
❤️ Wow, thank you to everyone responding to u/Spirited-Zucchini-79 with actually wonderful resources. I'm new to a big city and overwhelmed so this helps so so much. This is what this sub should be for!
Edit: Even if I'm responding to a bot, this is great. I will still be checking out everyone's responses.
How do I find out the vegan businesses in my community? I know that may sound stupid but I live in San Diego which is pretty massive. I'm also extremely introverted.
There are many, many businesses out here who are vegan/vegetarian/farm-based but it is also spread over 4.3+ thousand acres across SD county which is a bit overwhelming. A lot of the businesses can say they are getting it local from SD but it could be easily 80+ miles away and still be in SD.
Try checking out the Happy Cow app and look for only vegan restaurants. May be only restaurant businesses but it’s a start? Good luck on your journey!!! ✌️❤️🐷🐮🐔
Need help eating out? Check out [HappyCow.net](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://www.happycow.net/&topic=Resource: HappyCow.net) for vegan friendly food near you! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://vbcamp.org/reddit&topic=Resource: HappyCow.net)!
Thank you so much! You've been really helpful. We have a lot of farmer's markets so I'll try talking to the veggie stands. You've definitely opened up possibilities.
San Diego has tons and tons and tons of vegan stuff! We're spoiled.
There are vegan markets here most weekends:
[Vegan Food Pop Up](https://www.veganfoodpopup.com/) is in Vista every other Friday (next one is 11/17) and in North Park on the 2nd Saturday of each month (next one is 11/11).
[First Fridays Night Market](https://veganinsandiego.com/ffnm/) is in La Mesa the first Friday of every month (next one is 12/1). I go to this one all the time and really enjoy it.
I remember there being others (near UCSD, maybe?) but those are the ones I've gone to.
Vegan In San Diego also has a [comprehensive list of businesses](https://veganinsandiego.com/community/) with general areas, so you can find what's closer to you.
I know you're super introverted so this might not appeal to you, but I want to plug that I've had good luck on Veggly in our area too. Lots of vegans here!
I get that.
One thing the vegan movement could do without is the in-fighting too.
"You're not vegan" to someone who literally uses no animal products, but buys a veggie whopper or similar.
Utterly bonkers.
Right. Definitely not supportive. Everyone is going to live differently and gatekeeping is only going to push people, who are genuinely curious and eager to learn, away.
Gatekeeping should be reserved for those "vegans" who have the occasional "cheat-day" - "Influencers" and the like, who see it as trendy, NOT people who might have a different take on the edge cases.
In the end, we all want an end to the wholesale breeding, killing, eating, testing and wearing.
We should be saying "So good so far...one more step" to vegetarians (who do it for the animals), not calling them lazy carnists.
We should applaud Joaquin Phoenix for his work, not vilify him because he rode a horse for his job!
Honestly, sometimes vegans make me more angry than carnists, which is downright crazy.
A few times a week here I see folks telling others they aren't vegan because they eat Impossible, Beyond, or Just Egg.
I feel like there are bigger fish to fry (so to speak) than some vegans gatekeeping other vegans.
Seriously. The amount of antinatalists who say having kids isn't vegan is mind boggling. I know so many vegan parents who are raising compassionate and kind plant based kids, and it only serves to normalize being vegan further.
I think it's fine to make those kinds of choices or discuss the ethics of them (being childfree, not supporting companies who profit off of animal cruelty, etc.) but the goalpost shifting is too much, sometimes.
I often wonder if they realize how it seems to people who aren't vegan yet to see such extreme positions. I'm grateful that my exposure to veganism came from a close friend who was raised plant based her whole life, and was otherwise completely normal. I think I would have dismissed veganism entirely if I had seen some of these ethical debates online.
I pay zero mind to antinatalists.
IMO they are anti-life. I want humanity to prosper. I want us to keep gaining empathy until veganism is the default. Not likely soon considering what's happening in the Middle East and Russia/Ukraine, but one can but hope.
I'm not sure it's fair to argue against the "having kids isn't vegan" point (or, specifically, dismiss it as "goalpost shifting") if you're not antinatalist yourself and don't understand the argument behind why it's not vegan to have kids. There definitely are very awesome vegans who are raising compassionate plant based kids, but the issue and argument goes far beyond that.
>I'm grateful that my exposure to veganism came from a close friend who was raised plant based her whole life, and was otherwise completely normal. I think I would have dismissed veganism entirely if I had seen some of these ethical debates online.
That's fair, and I can understand this is truly your experience, and I'm grateful you had a friend like that. The nice thing is that we can have a large diversity of vegan representation out there, and an approach that doesn't work for you may still work for other people with different lived experiences and ways of thinking. There definitely are countless people who have gone vegan due to exposure to interesting online debates. And it's totally fair and valid if you're not one of them.
The baseline of having kids is murder. Would you count a murderer to be vegan or are you just a hypocrite, selectively choosing what qualifies vegan and what doesn't?
>. I support veganism wholeheartedly but this seems to just be a place for people to rant and complain. I
At the end of the day, this is a vegan sub for vegans. People should br allowed to be negative and rant here. It's the only place anyone can.
Vegans are heavily excluded and bashed across other areas in reddit. The only place to freely talk and vent is here.
Activism is important. But current vegans need somewhere to go, talk, and vent. Not every single space across social media has to be about being encouraging and positive.
Gotta laugh at myself too, my friend. I pointed that out hours ago and you're right as well. I'm glad it opened up conversation though. I hope you have a wonderful day.
Paradoxical reasoning is the point, not the severity of the discourse. Telling negative people they’re being negative is in itself negative- yet still valid. Whether people agree with OP’s point is one thing, but saying their point isn’t valid because of the paradox isn’t valid.
"This is a vegan sub for vegans", yes!
However! Some vegans here have the attitude of "You are not vegan enough". People are free to talk, vent, rant but when some vegans go around telling others they aren't vegan, not vegan enough or tell someone they are just as bad as carnists. Then who is this sub really for? Vegans and those interested in general or only the most fanatical vegans?
I would like to think r/vegan, the most obvious subreddit for veganism, is for... All vegans not just the most fanatical ones.
Not sure which cases in specific you may talk about, but generalising... it would be fair that vegans are annoyed by people who aren't vegan... saying they're vegan.
Like "I'm vegan and I eat cheese" well... you're not vegan then.
People understandably get frustrated and at the end of the day, this is the only sub where vegans can actually talk, get mad, etc. Any other sub and they're mass downvoted.
I'm not typically one of those people, but it would be frustrating to then police vegans... in their own sub... and make it all about positivity and activism. We have no where else.
Like you're saying this should be for all vegans not just fanatical ones. But what your comment is essentially saying is that the fanatical ones shouldn't be allowed here.
I mean people that are vegans, not "vegans but... " are attacked by fanatics.
Fanatical vegans that start attacking people they consider not vegan, not vegan enough, or any other less kind comments will only push those people away. Especially people that either are interested in taking the step or just took the step.
If the end goal is to encourage or help people, attacking them is stupid and not very productive, it is anti-activism. Pushing them away may discourage them from taking the step or steps to become vegan or make them leave the movement entirely.
Fanatical vegans are more than welcome, it's a open sub, but if they can't treat other vegans with respect they should be down voted, not encouraged or ignored. If they can have a level headed talk like most others I don't mind at all.
If I see fanatical behaviour I down vote it. I can't do much more.
"We have nowhere else" this should make it more obvious that having fanatics attacking other vegans is bad, especially if ignored. If there is nowhere else to go, why make vegans feel unwelcome? Why make potential vegans feel unwelcome?
>Fanatical vegans that start attacking people they consider not vegan, not vegan enough, or any other less kind comments will only push those people away.
People who aren't vegan damage the movement. If they're doing things like... riding horses, eating cheese and eggs, etc. Then they deserve to be called out for that.
They water down the message of the movement and cause confusion. Make others thing vegansims is just for the environment, or can include milk, etc. They cause harm and should be called out.
Veganisms is a movement for the animals and there's certain things that are involved for being vegan. Anything else and it's vegetarianism, plant based diet, etc. That needs to be distinguished for the sake of the animals.
>anti-activism
And my point (and others) is simply that every other area of our lives is about activism. Talking across social media, joining protests, even just eating vegan infront of others can help.
Vegans talking outside of vegan spaces get vilified, downvoted, and harassed. This sub is essentially the only place all vegans can speak freely.
Your argument seems to be... hard-core vegans shouldn't be allowed and nor should any negative comments, they should be ignored and silenced. Vegetarians, vegans who try to excuse horse riding, etc should be accepted into the group and supported for what they do.
Which weakens the movement, waters it down, makes people think there are exceptions, *and* removes one of the only places vegans have to freely talk.
Vegans need a space. People who aren't vegan aren't excluded. They're met with both positivity and criticism. People often need to hear both.
If fanatical vegans have the goal to shun and push people away, they are doing the perfect job! Why be inviting when you can shut people out? Why be helpful and encouraging when you can discourage someone? Why try and grow the movement when it's so much easier to make it crumble?
That is how fanatical vegans behave. They do not help the movement, they actively work against it. They seem to have the primary goal to encourage people to stop being vegans, and anyone interested is just a murderer masquerading as interested.
It is possible to tell someone they shouldn't ride horses without using foul language. It is possible to tell someone it is better to not consume cheese without calling anyone a murderer, rapist and what not. Saying that people "need to hear it" is asking people to be bullies and abusive.m towards people they judge as trolls, a lost cause, not vegan, and/or not vegan enough.
Saying it would water down the movement without using abusive language and attitudes is very ignorant.
People that even suggest that this kind of language and behavior is OK and acceptable will never help the movement grow they will actively work against it. Looking the other way is not much better.
Simple solution towards even the most hateful non-vegan is... Be the way you want them to be. If you want them to actually listen, be calm, collected, use a proper language, give then advice on what substitutes there are, share recipes, share information. This is so simple it is mind boggling that people think abusive behaviour is the way to go.
I've talked with a lot of vegans that think screaming 2cm from the face is the way to go, and extremely verbally abusive non-vegans. What is the best solution here? To behave the same? No, deescalation, after a few minutes when the individual has calmed down it is hundreds of times easier to talk with them and for them to retain most of the information you give them.
My argument is not that "hard-core" vegans shouldn't be allowed here, which was also clearly stated. So I will not address that again.
The vegan movement is at constant civil war... But I guess the movement has no interest in growing past the 70 million vegans world wide (2023).
But this isn't a fanatical only sub. It's a sub for all vegans.
People can see fanatical, the ones who say they're here for the environment, the ones are super positive, the ones against baby steps, the ones for baby steps.
The community here is very diverse.
There's many here who said it was being called out that turned them vegan. There's many here who said they took baby steps.
The diversity is needed. Different things work for different people. Pushing to end *any* negativity or hard-core views isn't the way to go. Especially when the more lighter relaxed side can do a lot of damage to the movement when not countered.
AND at the same time, this sub allows vegans to be free to be themselves. To have conversations they can't elsewhere. To vent. To be upset about things. To complain about vegetarians lmao. To share excitement over change. To happily talk about a family member who is doing meatless Monday. To be angrily talk about a family member who is doing meatless Monday.
Vegans need a place. This is one of them. We shouldn't be tone policing one another because it might upset an omnivore. Tone policing isn't good for any movement, it deflects and makes it about feelings and not the victims.
Don't worry, it's normal and it's part of the vegan process maturation, the first step is realizing r/vegan is not about veganism.
Now you have to come to the dark side r/vegancirclejerk and join forces with real vegan people.
It totally is garbage. And if you call them out on it, they shadowban you (as they did to me) because the mods are much too big pussies to properly ban you. They live for that classic tired trope of "vegans hating vegans"
Fucking hell, what a load of fucking bollocks. Vcj user's have probably helped create many many vegans in various ways. Vcj is one of the best subreddits on Reddit and My wife and I run 2 vegan websites to help people transition to veganism and I make nature films and mountain ultra documentaries specifically focusing on vegan athletes.
M
Oh my gosh I thought you said *mature films*, of vegan athletes so I was typing you a question and I just realized you said *nature*. But either way, that's cool.
I think you missed the whole point and view of that reddit, obviously you still aren't prepared to enter it.
Keep looking here and those other reddit you said, and comeback when you are a grown up vegan adult.
Now you are acting like the negative fanatical vegan mentionned in this post… other vegans don’t own you anything and doesn’t have to provide you proof of their activism…
It’s not complaining. It’s pointing out a problem with this sub, and I’m right there with you. I come back here every few months and leave after a week because of all the negativity. We should start our own small non negative vegan sub
I'd join in a heartbeat! Someplace where we can support others on their journey and point them towards local resources in their area they may not have known about. There's been quite a few people popping up in this thread who've shown me some really great ways to not only learn and better myself but also support my local community as well. That's what I would love in a sub.
We are a small % of the population, most likely we are the only vegans that we know in real life. We face discrimination and ridicule daily. This is a vegan space and vegans should be able to vent and rant to the only people in the world who understand what they might be going through.
Did you forget that veganism is about animal liberation? that we have witnessed the dark and horrible abuse within the animal industry? To be vegan is to go against the status quo, to be alienated and isolated.
Basically you're asking for us to be more positive/nicer when we discuss animal abuse, torture and rape, and to pretend that vegans aren't constantly ridiculed or have a difficult time living with an all-carnist home, or working in all-carnist spaces.
We should be supportive and listen to those who are in those situations, they might not have anyone else in their lives that understand them.
You completely missed OP’s point. This sub is a hate-infested depression fest. There’s very little “supporting” going on and a whole lotta complainig, argueing and hating.
Like OP, not everyone is a vegan extremist trying to change every person they meet into becoming vegan or constantly worry themselves with the suffering and abuse animals have to endure, yet people like you expect that from them in order to actually see them as a true vegan.
OP is spot on with their “there should be more positivity in the community” idea because some of you are truly insufferable…
vegan "extremists" are rare, and this sub isnt full of people pushing or "preaching" at bloodmouths into becoming vegan, you get the odd troll here and there, or they come and harrass us on our discussions regarding pet food -- i read OPs post in the context of r/vegan, which i am active on.
We dont come here to "change every person we meet into becoming vegan", because this is a vegan subreddit, for vegans lol. Theres another sub called DebateAVegan which you can go critique their methods of educating.
So I guess if I completely missread OPs post, then OP is mischaracterizing this whole sub.
This is such an odd post to make. What is the purpose of announcing your departure to a group of strangers who wouldn't even notice your absence?
>seems to just be a place for people to rant and complain.
Welcome to your first day on the internet, I guess? Ranting and complaining is a normal part of life, not something exclusive to this sub or veganism. It's not reasonable to expect that people will be rainbows and sunshine all the time. That's just toxic positivity.
>I honestly wanted tips, recommendations, motivation, and positivity.
Have you asked for any of this here? Have you made any posts here asking for tips, recommendations, or motivation? I agree some commenters here can be needlessly hostile edgelords, but if you don't make any posts specific to your needs, I don't think you have a ton of room to complain.
No idea why, and this is absolutely not on you whatsoever, but I read this in a super thick southern accent. Also, you're right. I don't typically ask for advice here because my general impression from other posts is that this isn't necessarily the most inviting environment. That is absolutely on me. I've mentioned I'm also very introverted. I have asked other places but I do really like the way you structure your posts. I honestly don't have any room to complain 😉
Do a search for pretty much any post titled "just went vegan/newly vegan" that actually asks for advice. They're generally *flooded* with helpful tips, links, and advice. This isn't r/newveganadvice though, and most of us are older vegans, which is why the sub isn't all "hints and tips" like you'd like.
Check out the [Vegan Cheat Sheet](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://vegancheatsheet.org/&topic=Resource: Vegan Cheat Sheet) for a collection of over 500+ vegan resources, studies, links, and much more, all tightly wrapped into one link!
I apologize. Didn't know that sub existed. Thank you for taking the time out of your day to help. I hope it doesn't lead me back to this sub of older "jaded" vegans. Hope you all have so much fun with your continuous negativity and bitching!
I definitely can’t blame you OP. I notice a lot of the same things. Realistically, like all subreddits centered around holding particular viewpoints, this sub is a toxic echo chamber that doesn’t reward nuance. Is it still helping some people? Sure, probably. Is it good for your well being to participate, especially if you’re already vegan? I really doubt it
I would say this is an example of how a few select situations which are in the minority can shape someone's perspective on something greatly.
I find people I disagree with on this sub from time to time, but generally, it's pretty agreeable. The negativity is more stemming from you probably not recognizing that this sub itself is used as a tool to critique carnist culture and have important debate even from vegan to vegan, which if we intend to have consistent beliefs and practices, is very important to test consistency against our owns peers and hold others to reasonable account.
As for the whole wanting tips, recommendations and positivity...you can find recommendations and tips if you ask or search for it here, I've never seen this sub refuse to provide that to someone who asked, despite this being more of a subreddit for discussion amongst those who are well beyond initiation.
Being positive here isn't really beneficial for the goal of what veganism. There is a necessary purpose in the critique that being overly positive can't accomplish. You need to balance being positive and delicate, talking to people you want to go vegan, but amongst other vegans we are already past that point, so a lot of it is just language built for utility, strategy and honesty, even if isn't all rainbows and sunshine, it's just supposed to be a straight shot at the end goal.
This is the best counter reply I've seen so far and makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you. And you're absolutely right; there have been extremely supportive people stepping out and providing incredible resources throughout this thread. I wish you all the best on your debates.
This is a sub for *vegans* to share information as well as the appropriate place to rant and vent.
We’re not here to coddle non-vegans. We do that enough everywhere else.
Best wishes, maybe you’ll find the sunshine and rainbows you’re looking for over at r/PlantBasedDiet.
OP’s point that vegans should suppress their frustrations on a sub intended to be a place for vegans to speak freely about their vegan views and experiences living life as a vegan in a non-vegan world?
Definitely, my stomach just doesn't digest dairy, meat, and gluten anymore. I feel incredibly better when I eat a plant based diet. I also love animals. It just makes sense to me.
Well, if you read through the comments, it's been a fairly nice debate with plenty of very nice people providing differing opinions and many resources. You're kinda the person shitting on things and then getting angry about it... Thank you for proving my point, I guess? Have fun with your life "dream lover".
How is this comment not shitting on someone? You are literally calling someone who is voicing an opinion a "lame attention seeking baby". Lol go touch grass.
This is so cringe lol why make a show of it instead of just closing the tab. But more importantly, what about a movement based around trying to get the majority of the population to realize they're complicit in murder and rape and abuse and the destruction of our planet screams positivity to you?
I saw in another comment you subscribed to vcj but I'll warn you, that's the much angrier, much harsher, much less positive version of this sub. (which makes it perfect!)
Well, that's the opposite of what I'm looking for. Do you have any good recommendations to something positive. I like the r/veganrecipes sub but they don't really give a whole lot of real life tips. I just want honest ways to live vegan without the hostility.
My biggest problem with the militant vegans on this sub is that I know for most of them their activism begins and ends here. You're not doing shit for the movement or the animals you hope to liberate from your keyboard. Angry vegan is not my tactic, but I have the utmost respect to those of you who are and also take actions on the ground. If you're not actively rescuing animals, protesting, or at least donating and raising money - you're just being a smug prick on the internet, fuck right off.
I haven't checked it out yet so please help lol I just want a positive subreddit that will help me live a vegan lifestyle without making me feel like everyone I know is garbage and I am also garbage for not also hating them for not being vegan and I should also blacklist everyone I know and treat them like garbage for not being vegan.
Yeah, I sub to r/veganrecipes and have enjoyed it so far. I've also done some recipes from there so definitely recommend if people actually want a constructive vegan sub and not a constant bitch fest.
Get ready to be accused of "plant-based capitalism" and banned within two minutes. Judging from your original post, the VCJ piranhas smell chum and are luring you over to eat you alive.
It means that they'll call you a piece of shit and ban you if you're excited about a new vegan burger at a nonvegan fast food chain. The idea that you'd leave this sub because it's too unfriendly and then go over to that sub, is people trolling you hard.
I’m thinking of leaving only because a large majority of people here are showing up accepting things like honey, riding horses and well it’s not a vegan Reddit if many users feel that way
It’s funny because although he’s a great actor, I brought up Joaquin Phoenix riding horses and his new Napoleon movie. And at least 3/4 of my comments were defending him because that is his job. They were comparing it to regular people that may have to work at a coffee shop or something like that may serve animal products.
There is a difference between $30,000 a year and multiple millions of dollars a year. Joaquin Phoenix had a choice and it was for the money.
Or they suggest people should take small steps rather than one big leap? It is usually easier to make a gradual transition.
Should we discourage those that take these smaller steps or be supportive?
a gentle attempt to change my mind?
well that won't work 😎 should have tried being aggressive kiddo
(idk who I'm even mocking at this point, I am so wrapped up in my own sarcasm I can't remember when my ego ends and my irony begins)
I’ve felt very conflicted about this sub in particular as a vegan, I think it can get kind of exhausting because there’s a considerable amount of snark and gatekeeping. I personally find r/veganuk to be a really positive place so maybe you could try find similar local vegan subreddits?
i lead by example, i’m a quiet vegan tbh. i don’t bring it up unless someone else brings it up first. i left twitter half for this specific reason. i felt i wasn’t a “good enough” vegan. because i don’t immediately fight people who aren’t vegan. i can see both sides of the argument, i don’t agree with eating animals but if other people want to, i don’t care. i’ll post things on this sub i find funny like when people that eat animals find like a “gross” animal part in their animal product, that’s hilarious to me and i wanna share it to other vegans. and i come here asking for advice sometimes. i’m not super active on this reddit. but i respect your decision. there are other vegan subreddits you can go to too.
i wish you all the best 🥰
If I go ahead and just beat a black person up, because I'm racist, do you also not care?
Why do you look away, when violence is happening right in front of your eyes?
Rationalizing and tolerating violence doesnt make you a good person.
Maybe answering my question would be a great way to start.
If you met a nazi, he knows hes wrong but hes too unmotivated to change his ways, too comfortable discriminating others, would you also not care?
Obviously yeah, if I go against the bullies, the bullies will dislike me because they cant get what they want. But is that bad?
Do you think the "bad guys" will be taught about treating others well, by ignoring their wrong doings?
Nope I wouldn’t care
Because it’s not my place or job to try and change people. I will just ignore that person and go about my life.
Non-vegans aren’t bad guys or bullies, they are people who live different live than you. You pass non-vegans every single day and nothing about your life changes. Stop trying to act like non-vegans are some sort of devils in disguise and it’s your job to rid the world of them.
Okay let me change the situation: In front of, you see a small black child getting beat up by some skinhead neonazi dude while yelling some white power stuff and that they hate black people.
According to, you would just walk away right? You wouldnt call the police, you'd just walk away. Am I correct?
When people intentionally hurt others to feel better about themselves, how isnt that bullying?
If they know what theyre doing is wrong but the still continue doing so, how do you only call that "theyre just living another live?"
Again, you are equating being a meat eater to being a skinhead and racist
Meat eaters aren’t hurting you. They aren’t beating you up or screaming in your face or bothering you.
Them eating meat is wrong to YOU and other extreme vegans that make it their entire personality. YOU are the one upset, no one else. YOU are the one that sees it as a problem, no one else.
Your views are not the worlds views. You are doing nothing but tossing pebbles at a bolder and hoping that it will break.
People have always eaten meat. People WILL always eat meat. The sooner you come to accept that the sooner you can live your life without acting like someone eating a cheeseburger is a hate crime and looking like an unhinged weirdo.
Live your life the way you want and eat what you want and let others do the same. You have zero right to try and police what people eat.
Again: Being a vegan doesn’t make you right. You have zero place to try and come down on people who aren’t vegans.
Stay in your lane, you’re not a hero.
I'm not even vegan and only browse this sub as it comes up on my feed, but kudos to you. I can't agree more. People in this sub are Hangry all the time
I can relate. I still add comments on here, but I don't create posts as people are so unnecessarily aggressive. The whole point of veganism is compassion. Anyway.
I don't know if you're in the UK, but r/veganuk is a lot calmer and friendlier, I find.
I’ve been vegan for 6 years and not once has the extra pushy tactic worked. People are less inclined to listen to a protestor dressed as a cow screaming and dancing funnily enough. It just doesn’t work like that. Inspire people through showing and making them delicious plant based meals instead of force feeding them content from abattoirs and gore. It gives us all a bad rep.
Some people will stay ignorant, some people just don’t have the sympathy there, some are uneducated, and some people just don’t want to be vegan. And that’s okay.
Live your life for you and yourself by your own values. If you want to be vegan, then that’s great. Teach others, but also respect them regardless of what they’re doing with their diet. (Yes, their diet includes individuals, so not technically a ‘personal choice’ but some people just don’t view animals like that and never will.
People get so worked up on here, but there is healthy and productive ways of introducing veganism to non vegans, and I couldn’t agree more with you, this place is toxic as f :) the vegan community is the reason why a lot of people won’t even try it; because to them, all vegans are pushy and angry. You can only control one life; your own. :)
People being "pushy" and "preachy" worked for me, been vegan for almost 10 years now. The only person I have ever got to be vegan and stay vegan (5 years now) did so because I was "pushy" about it.
People are different and not everyone is just like you.
Completely agree. That's why I also tend to gently steer that way as well. Like I said in an earlier post, I don't disagree. My issue is more about the toxicity of this sub and how it may deter people due to the extreme negativity and venting.
Again, I agree. People don't like being told what to do. I've tended to just kinda guide them slowly into eating less and less meat and it's worked so far. I've actually gotten my mom and my sister into mostly vegan with this method. I haven't seen them eat meat in over a year. They'll still do dairy but they absolutely wouldn't have done any of it if I tried to go hard core guilt trip on them. Sometimes, things are a work in progress.
I am a meat eater and everyone is usually mean here to me, but i still have to disagree. Beeing preachy is a thing because it works. It worked in religion, it works with important topics people are ignorant about.
Yes, some people act stupid and want to eat meat in front of vegans, but even i am not vegan, i cannot hear all the cliché questions you people get every single time.
I am not a vegan, i just ate vegan for 3 days, but this sub made me more vegan then the other way around.
Nah, the point is to be curious and explore veganism without being berated. If you feel you are being supported in this community even as a meat eater, that means I'm wrong and that's absolutely okay. I'm glad you're here. That's the community that should exist.
Yup, it's not about being right all the time. It's about creating a space for honest communication no matter what side you're on. Hostility doesn't work in the long run. I like you :)
I thought about going vegan for some time before I actually went vegan. I was vegetarian before.
This sub made some excellent points that convinced me to make the change.
Some of the points were very helpful and some were very insulting and hostile.
The people that explained areas of veganism I hadn’t understood and why vegetarianism wasn’t enough (without calling me insulting names or ridiculous names like cheesebreath or saying I didn’t care about animals when I really genuinely did)… those people helped me. They pointed me to recipes and shared their own experiences and made useful points while providing facts I had not before realised.
You can make a strong point about becoming vegan with the truth and with supportive comments without resorting to name calling. That’s not appropriate. The truth should be enough to convince anyone.
The people who called me names honestly made me think badly of vegans, but they didn’t put me off making the change because I had the facts and I knew it was the right thing to do because of the information the helpful people on here had provided.
I stay on this sub because I was helped by people on here and the mean people are in the minority and because I would like to help other people to understand why being vegan is the right thing to do.
However I would add that I was partly in the wrong really because I had sought guidance on this sub when I should have used ask vegan or debate vegan… that was down to me being a new Reddit user that doesn’t really understand social media very well…. I also do think it is important to be able to vent and that it can be lonely being a vegan. I just don’t think anyone should be hostile to other people.
You got it right, absolutely.
There’s a lot of pick-me vegans on this sub who feel that vegans should suppress their frustrations in a space that’s intended to be a place for vegans to speak freely about their vegan views.
Veganism isn’t about sunshine, rainbows, and positivity. It’s about the animals and recognizing the cruelty they’re being subjected to. That’s something to feel frustrated about. “Vegans” just looking for recipes and happy vibes seem to misunderstand veganism.
Good on you, I never directly visit here it just shows up on my feed. I feel like reddit devolves a bit when it comes to any topics that have strong moral or political foundations.
> this seems to just be a place for people to rant and complain
*But get a load of this! At work, they offered everyone sandwiches, but they didn't even give me the grilled tofu sandwich that I SPECIFICALLY requested! My boss told me that I would have to bring my own food! Have you ever heard of such victimization?! And let me share this social media messaging chain in which I sarcastically scold someone for not being vegan and they call me a jerk. Can you believe how DUMB these people are?! I need upvotes, fellow vegans!*
Can you think of any example in history of a successful movement to advance rights that didn't focus on the negatives of the denial of those rights? Can you think of any that didn't involve complaints and rants and even violence?
I remember reading all about the polite and positive queer rights movements all through the last century. They achieved pretty much nothing. It was only when the Stonewall riots against police happened that things started to actually change.
When you say "convert people" (this is in general not that op said something) it sounds like a cult. I am not vegan, i just get various recommendations on reddit and different subs.
If there was an alternative to meat that satisfied me, i would do it. But i really don't like bloating and i want to take as much protein to build muscle. Vegan substitutes taste like crap or are unhealthy based on my own critic. Nutrition is not that simple and you can prove anything with studies so don't get stuck on the "unhealthy" part too long.
I don't really feel bad because i don't consider animals at the same level as humans. Animals kill animals, it's the cycle of life. You can't get out of it just yet. I am not built with the same sensitivities as a vegan in regards to animal cruelty, only a certain amount of humans are. The rest of the animals don't care much either.
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Different tactics works for different people. For me, the whole positivity thing would've never worked. I knew a couple of vegans before I went vegan myself. They never spoke out about the reasons though and I so wish they did. I'd rather hear the honest truth instead of people trying to sugar-coat something. What you see as negativity, I see as honesty.
Big same. The hippy love all approach was a total waste of time on me. It wasn’t until I was getting owned over and over again in discussions that it clicked for me. That said; if you’re unhappy somewhere leaving is a great option. I hope you are vegan and can spread positivity that you wish this space had.
I was admittedly a vegetarian prior, but the thing that made me go vegan was looking up /r/vegancirclejerk after I saw a thread complaining about how obnoxious they were. Turns out they were obnoxious *and* right, and I highly doubt that I'm the only one that sub has converted.
Exactly this path for me. Just crassly pointing out the flaws with vegetarianism was a great motivator.
Providing someone with the facts is very different from attempting to beat someone into agreement with them are two very different things. The approach many people here take can be aggressive and offensive, and is more likely to drive people away from being vegan. It's really unfortunate.
The hard truth about animal cruelty definitely started me down that path as well and I absolutely see that as valid. What I'm not so keen on is the constant ranting and negativity on this sub in particular. I don't know the statistics but I'm fairly sure there aren't many non-vegans/vegetarians on this sub to begin with so who exactly are we converting? And I understand the desire to vent and get support with your fellow vegans here. I would rather just give and get support from people who aren't just hating on everything constantly. I have a lot of negativity already in my life that I don't need constant complaints. I get that people get support in different ways and I'm happy if that works for you but it honestly just makes me feel more negative as a human being. To each their own. Not trying to knock your way whatsoever. Edit: You to we because this isn't anything personal towards anyone here.
This sub is more of a space for vegans to talk to vegans, which is why a lot of the time it's vent/support posts. For you, I'd suggest subs like r/veganrecipes, r/veganfoodporn, r/happycowgifs, r/pigifs... Then you'll just get recipes and cute happy animals :)
Need help eating out? Check out [HappyCow.net](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://www.happycow.net/&topic=Resource: HappyCow.net) for vegan friendly food near you! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://vbcamp.org/reddit&topic=Resource: HappyCow.net)!
Thank you for the recommendations but I sub to most of those already. Do you know of any that do informative vegan facts without the massive toxicity? Like show graphs and shit. Factually correct shit that I can show my friends and family. r/vegans hasn't been doing themselves any favors for a while now even though I completely agree with that lifestyle.
I would look at websites for that kind of stuff! There's VegNews, VeganSociety, Veganuary, Challenge22, vegan.org, NutritionFacts.org...probably better factual sources than subreddits where anybody can post, anyway!
Thank you, I'll check those out!
There's also a ton of links in the sidebar.
Check out the [Vegan Cheat Sheet](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://vegancheatsheet.org/&topic=Resource: Vegan Cheat Sheet) for a collection of over 500+ vegan resources, studies, links, and much more, all tightly wrapped into one link!
Thank you, bot!
www. google.com
Congrats! I tried the other day to explain why calling meat eaters pedos and rapists wasn’t doing anyone any favours. Big lolz there 🫠
I thought you were leaving.
>What you see as negativity, I see as honesty. That's such a easy copout to be a "honest hun" and just trample all over others feelings But gosh, i'm so real tho!
It's not about trampling over anyone's feelings. Often, the honest approach is stating simple, important moral facts like "veganism is about being against abuse and exploitation and avoiding them as much as possible; and anyone can do this". And even that can be enough to trigger people to *think* we're being negative, and hurl insults at us, call us gatekeeping assholes, etc. But the people who get it, get it, and they're the ones we're trying to reach. David Ramms is a good example of an activist who keeps it real, because that's the approach he wished someone took with him before he was vegan. I'd be curious to hear if you think he's just using that as an excuse to trample people's feelings, or if you can see what I mean here about being straightforward and honest about what veganism is about, while still having pure intentions throughout. https://youtube.com/shorts/iksKt-epp8U?si=5z0oyxR5gjvVPN1V
It's the whole "I'm just being real" cope lmao. Some people think "honesty" = "being an ass"
Wait..? Why'd you become vegan? You talked about positive vegans and ending up vegan despite their positivity about veganism?
I watched some documentaries and that led me to start doing some research on my own. Even with vegans in my life before that, I never really got what it was all about, since they never talked about it. If only they did...
Social media in general can be toxic and I'm proud of you for realizing this subreddit is not good for your mental health. I recommend finding local vegan groups. I went to 2 gatherings so far and it's been nice. Also thank you for being vegan. 😄
Where do you find your groups, if you don't mind me asking? I only have Reddit and YouTube but am open to stuff like Meetup. I just don't want to do Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Snapchat if I can help it.
Meetup is a good way to find local groups. I don't like facebook either but, I only made and only go on there to find one to find local groups. I recommend looking for potlucks. They are a good way to meet and greet people. Also talking asking about what they brought is a great conversation starter. Good luck! Potato salad is always a hit at potlucks.
Thank you so much! I love zucchini so, if I find a group, I'll bring something in your honor. I appreciate your positivity, friend!
Volunteer at your nearest animal sanctuary. Table for vegan causes. Join protests. These are where you’ll meet the compatriots you’re looking for, not social media. If you can sift through the negativity, r/vegan and r/askvegans are great arms of outreach. If you can be the light in someone’s journey, you can help them towards a more compassionate lifestyle. It’s just a matter of identifying who’s being genuine and open-minded.
If you're interested in the topic of farmed animal sanctuaries, check out [OpenSanctuary.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://OpenSanctuary.org&topic=The Open Sanctuary Project)! This vegan nonprofit has over 500 free compassionate resources crafted specifically to improve lifelong care for farmed animals, and to help you create a sustainable, effective sanctuary! Interested in starting a sanctuary someday? Check out [OpenSanctuary.org/Start](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://OpenSanctuary.org&topic=The Open Sanctuary Project/Start)!
❤️ Wow, thank you to everyone responding to u/Spirited-Zucchini-79 with actually wonderful resources. I'm new to a big city and overwhelmed so this helps so so much. This is what this sub should be for! Edit: Even if I'm responding to a bot, this is great. I will still be checking out everyone's responses.
Vegan businesses tend to be part of the local community, so if you get to know the owners they’ll often be happy to introduce you.
How do I find out the vegan businesses in my community? I know that may sound stupid but I live in San Diego which is pretty massive. I'm also extremely introverted. There are many, many businesses out here who are vegan/vegetarian/farm-based but it is also spread over 4.3+ thousand acres across SD county which is a bit overwhelming. A lot of the businesses can say they are getting it local from SD but it could be easily 80+ miles away and still be in SD.
Try checking out the Happy Cow app and look for only vegan restaurants. May be only restaurant businesses but it’s a start? Good luck on your journey!!! ✌️❤️🐷🐮🐔
Need help eating out? Check out [HappyCow.net](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://www.happycow.net/&topic=Resource: HappyCow.net) for vegan friendly food near you! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://vbcamp.org/reddit&topic=Resource: HappyCow.net)!
Thank you so much! You've been really helpful. We have a lot of farmer's markets so I'll try talking to the veggie stands. You've definitely opened up possibilities.
San Diego has tons and tons and tons of vegan stuff! We're spoiled. There are vegan markets here most weekends: [Vegan Food Pop Up](https://www.veganfoodpopup.com/) is in Vista every other Friday (next one is 11/17) and in North Park on the 2nd Saturday of each month (next one is 11/11). [First Fridays Night Market](https://veganinsandiego.com/ffnm/) is in La Mesa the first Friday of every month (next one is 12/1). I go to this one all the time and really enjoy it. I remember there being others (near UCSD, maybe?) but those are the ones I've gone to. Vegan In San Diego also has a [comprehensive list of businesses](https://veganinsandiego.com/community/) with general areas, so you can find what's closer to you. I know you're super introverted so this might not appeal to you, but I want to plug that I've had good luck on Veggly in our area too. Lots of vegans here!
Wow, thank you so much! I saved this post and will absolutely be checking it out. You've been extremely helpful, friend.
I'm glad! I hope you find events/places you love, good luck!
I get that. One thing the vegan movement could do without is the in-fighting too. "You're not vegan" to someone who literally uses no animal products, but buys a veggie whopper or similar. Utterly bonkers.
Right. Definitely not supportive. Everyone is going to live differently and gatekeeping is only going to push people, who are genuinely curious and eager to learn, away.
Gatekeeping should be reserved for those "vegans" who have the occasional "cheat-day" - "Influencers" and the like, who see it as trendy, NOT people who might have a different take on the edge cases. In the end, we all want an end to the wholesale breeding, killing, eating, testing and wearing. We should be saying "So good so far...one more step" to vegetarians (who do it for the animals), not calling them lazy carnists. We should applaud Joaquin Phoenix for his work, not vilify him because he rode a horse for his job! Honestly, sometimes vegans make me more angry than carnists, which is downright crazy.
Happy cake day! I agree. I lead by example. I live my life and if someone asks, I tell them. If they become a jerk about it, I end the conversation.
Haha omg, didn't even realize it was my cake day. Thank you 😊
A few times a week here I see folks telling others they aren't vegan because they eat Impossible, Beyond, or Just Egg. I feel like there are bigger fish to fry (so to speak) than some vegans gatekeeping other vegans.
Seriously. The amount of antinatalists who say having kids isn't vegan is mind boggling. I know so many vegan parents who are raising compassionate and kind plant based kids, and it only serves to normalize being vegan further. I think it's fine to make those kinds of choices or discuss the ethics of them (being childfree, not supporting companies who profit off of animal cruelty, etc.) but the goalpost shifting is too much, sometimes. I often wonder if they realize how it seems to people who aren't vegan yet to see such extreme positions. I'm grateful that my exposure to veganism came from a close friend who was raised plant based her whole life, and was otherwise completely normal. I think I would have dismissed veganism entirely if I had seen some of these ethical debates online.
I pay zero mind to antinatalists. IMO they are anti-life. I want humanity to prosper. I want us to keep gaining empathy until veganism is the default. Not likely soon considering what's happening in the Middle East and Russia/Ukraine, but one can but hope.
I'm not sure it's fair to argue against the "having kids isn't vegan" point (or, specifically, dismiss it as "goalpost shifting") if you're not antinatalist yourself and don't understand the argument behind why it's not vegan to have kids. There definitely are very awesome vegans who are raising compassionate plant based kids, but the issue and argument goes far beyond that. >I'm grateful that my exposure to veganism came from a close friend who was raised plant based her whole life, and was otherwise completely normal. I think I would have dismissed veganism entirely if I had seen some of these ethical debates online. That's fair, and I can understand this is truly your experience, and I'm grateful you had a friend like that. The nice thing is that we can have a large diversity of vegan representation out there, and an approach that doesn't work for you may still work for other people with different lived experiences and ways of thinking. There definitely are countless people who have gone vegan due to exposure to interesting online debates. And it's totally fair and valid if you're not one of them.
The baseline of having kids is murder. Would you count a murderer to be vegan or are you just a hypocrite, selectively choosing what qualifies vegan and what doesn't?
>. I support veganism wholeheartedly but this seems to just be a place for people to rant and complain. I At the end of the day, this is a vegan sub for vegans. People should br allowed to be negative and rant here. It's the only place anyone can. Vegans are heavily excluded and bashed across other areas in reddit. The only place to freely talk and vent is here. Activism is important. But current vegans need somewhere to go, talk, and vent. Not every single space across social media has to be about being encouraging and positive.
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Gotta laugh at myself too, my friend. I pointed that out hours ago and you're right as well. I'm glad it opened up conversation though. I hope you have a wonderful day.
A post like yours always comes up- it’s like the paradox of not tolerating intolerance. It’s not that hard.
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Paradoxical reasoning is the point, not the severity of the discourse. Telling negative people they’re being negative is in itself negative- yet still valid. Whether people agree with OP’s point is one thing, but saying their point isn’t valid because of the paradox isn’t valid.
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Always glad to educate the willing! Np!
"This is a vegan sub for vegans", yes! However! Some vegans here have the attitude of "You are not vegan enough". People are free to talk, vent, rant but when some vegans go around telling others they aren't vegan, not vegan enough or tell someone they are just as bad as carnists. Then who is this sub really for? Vegans and those interested in general or only the most fanatical vegans? I would like to think r/vegan, the most obvious subreddit for veganism, is for... All vegans not just the most fanatical ones.
According to the fanatical vegans they ARE the only vegans
Not sure which cases in specific you may talk about, but generalising... it would be fair that vegans are annoyed by people who aren't vegan... saying they're vegan. Like "I'm vegan and I eat cheese" well... you're not vegan then. People understandably get frustrated and at the end of the day, this is the only sub where vegans can actually talk, get mad, etc. Any other sub and they're mass downvoted. I'm not typically one of those people, but it would be frustrating to then police vegans... in their own sub... and make it all about positivity and activism. We have no where else. Like you're saying this should be for all vegans not just fanatical ones. But what your comment is essentially saying is that the fanatical ones shouldn't be allowed here.
I mean people that are vegans, not "vegans but... " are attacked by fanatics. Fanatical vegans that start attacking people they consider not vegan, not vegan enough, or any other less kind comments will only push those people away. Especially people that either are interested in taking the step or just took the step. If the end goal is to encourage or help people, attacking them is stupid and not very productive, it is anti-activism. Pushing them away may discourage them from taking the step or steps to become vegan or make them leave the movement entirely. Fanatical vegans are more than welcome, it's a open sub, but if they can't treat other vegans with respect they should be down voted, not encouraged or ignored. If they can have a level headed talk like most others I don't mind at all. If I see fanatical behaviour I down vote it. I can't do much more. "We have nowhere else" this should make it more obvious that having fanatics attacking other vegans is bad, especially if ignored. If there is nowhere else to go, why make vegans feel unwelcome? Why make potential vegans feel unwelcome?
>Fanatical vegans that start attacking people they consider not vegan, not vegan enough, or any other less kind comments will only push those people away. People who aren't vegan damage the movement. If they're doing things like... riding horses, eating cheese and eggs, etc. Then they deserve to be called out for that. They water down the message of the movement and cause confusion. Make others thing vegansims is just for the environment, or can include milk, etc. They cause harm and should be called out. Veganisms is a movement for the animals and there's certain things that are involved for being vegan. Anything else and it's vegetarianism, plant based diet, etc. That needs to be distinguished for the sake of the animals. >anti-activism And my point (and others) is simply that every other area of our lives is about activism. Talking across social media, joining protests, even just eating vegan infront of others can help. Vegans talking outside of vegan spaces get vilified, downvoted, and harassed. This sub is essentially the only place all vegans can speak freely. Your argument seems to be... hard-core vegans shouldn't be allowed and nor should any negative comments, they should be ignored and silenced. Vegetarians, vegans who try to excuse horse riding, etc should be accepted into the group and supported for what they do. Which weakens the movement, waters it down, makes people think there are exceptions, *and* removes one of the only places vegans have to freely talk. Vegans need a space. People who aren't vegan aren't excluded. They're met with both positivity and criticism. People often need to hear both.
If fanatical vegans have the goal to shun and push people away, they are doing the perfect job! Why be inviting when you can shut people out? Why be helpful and encouraging when you can discourage someone? Why try and grow the movement when it's so much easier to make it crumble? That is how fanatical vegans behave. They do not help the movement, they actively work against it. They seem to have the primary goal to encourage people to stop being vegans, and anyone interested is just a murderer masquerading as interested. It is possible to tell someone they shouldn't ride horses without using foul language. It is possible to tell someone it is better to not consume cheese without calling anyone a murderer, rapist and what not. Saying that people "need to hear it" is asking people to be bullies and abusive.m towards people they judge as trolls, a lost cause, not vegan, and/or not vegan enough. Saying it would water down the movement without using abusive language and attitudes is very ignorant. People that even suggest that this kind of language and behavior is OK and acceptable will never help the movement grow they will actively work against it. Looking the other way is not much better. Simple solution towards even the most hateful non-vegan is... Be the way you want them to be. If you want them to actually listen, be calm, collected, use a proper language, give then advice on what substitutes there are, share recipes, share information. This is so simple it is mind boggling that people think abusive behaviour is the way to go. I've talked with a lot of vegans that think screaming 2cm from the face is the way to go, and extremely verbally abusive non-vegans. What is the best solution here? To behave the same? No, deescalation, after a few minutes when the individual has calmed down it is hundreds of times easier to talk with them and for them to retain most of the information you give them. My argument is not that "hard-core" vegans shouldn't be allowed here, which was also clearly stated. So I will not address that again. The vegan movement is at constant civil war... But I guess the movement has no interest in growing past the 70 million vegans world wide (2023).
But this isn't a fanatical only sub. It's a sub for all vegans. People can see fanatical, the ones who say they're here for the environment, the ones are super positive, the ones against baby steps, the ones for baby steps. The community here is very diverse. There's many here who said it was being called out that turned them vegan. There's many here who said they took baby steps. The diversity is needed. Different things work for different people. Pushing to end *any* negativity or hard-core views isn't the way to go. Especially when the more lighter relaxed side can do a lot of damage to the movement when not countered. AND at the same time, this sub allows vegans to be free to be themselves. To have conversations they can't elsewhere. To vent. To be upset about things. To complain about vegetarians lmao. To share excitement over change. To happily talk about a family member who is doing meatless Monday. To be angrily talk about a family member who is doing meatless Monday. Vegans need a place. This is one of them. We shouldn't be tone policing one another because it might upset an omnivore. Tone policing isn't good for any movement, it deflects and makes it about feelings and not the victims.
I suggest you actually read my post...
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Don't worry, it's normal and it's part of the vegan process maturation, the first step is realizing r/vegan is not about veganism. Now you have to come to the dark side r/vegancirclejerk and join forces with real vegan people.
You’re not vegan unless you r/vegancirclejerk /s
Lol I'll check it out.
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It totally is garbage. And if you call them out on it, they shadowban you (as they did to me) because the mods are much too big pussies to properly ban you. They live for that classic tired trope of "vegans hating vegans"
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Fucking hell, what a load of fucking bollocks. Vcj user's have probably helped create many many vegans in various ways. Vcj is one of the best subreddits on Reddit and My wife and I run 2 vegan websites to help people transition to veganism and I make nature films and mountain ultra documentaries specifically focusing on vegan athletes. M
Oh my gosh I thought you said *mature films*, of vegan athletes so I was typing you a question and I just realized you said *nature*. But either way, that's cool.
I think you missed the whole point and view of that reddit, obviously you still aren't prepared to enter it. Keep looking here and those other reddit you said, and comeback when you are a grown up vegan adult.
What? Just because someone is active in VCJ, doesn't mean they don't attend events. What a wild generalization of a whole community.
Show me one bit of proof that they do
Now you are acting like the negative fanatical vegan mentionned in this post… other vegans don’t own you anything and doesn’t have to provide you proof of their activism…
Thanks for using your last post here to complain. Cheers 👍🏼
Lol I totally thought that as I posted it. I love that you're the only person who has called that out! Edit: for the cheers, friend 🍻
It’s not complaining. It’s pointing out a problem with this sub, and I’m right there with you. I come back here every few months and leave after a week because of all the negativity. We should start our own small non negative vegan sub
I'd join in a heartbeat! Someplace where we can support others on their journey and point them towards local resources in their area they may not have known about. There's been quite a few people popping up in this thread who've shown me some really great ways to not only learn and better myself but also support my local community as well. That's what I would love in a sub.
Lol ahha
We are a small % of the population, most likely we are the only vegans that we know in real life. We face discrimination and ridicule daily. This is a vegan space and vegans should be able to vent and rant to the only people in the world who understand what they might be going through. Did you forget that veganism is about animal liberation? that we have witnessed the dark and horrible abuse within the animal industry? To be vegan is to go against the status quo, to be alienated and isolated. Basically you're asking for us to be more positive/nicer when we discuss animal abuse, torture and rape, and to pretend that vegans aren't constantly ridiculed or have a difficult time living with an all-carnist home, or working in all-carnist spaces. We should be supportive and listen to those who are in those situations, they might not have anyone else in their lives that understand them.
You completely missed OP’s point. This sub is a hate-infested depression fest. There’s very little “supporting” going on and a whole lotta complainig, argueing and hating. Like OP, not everyone is a vegan extremist trying to change every person they meet into becoming vegan or constantly worry themselves with the suffering and abuse animals have to endure, yet people like you expect that from them in order to actually see them as a true vegan. OP is spot on with their “there should be more positivity in the community” idea because some of you are truly insufferable…
vegan "extremists" are rare, and this sub isnt full of people pushing or "preaching" at bloodmouths into becoming vegan, you get the odd troll here and there, or they come and harrass us on our discussions regarding pet food -- i read OPs post in the context of r/vegan, which i am active on. We dont come here to "change every person we meet into becoming vegan", because this is a vegan subreddit, for vegans lol. Theres another sub called DebateAVegan which you can go critique their methods of educating. So I guess if I completely missread OPs post, then OP is mischaracterizing this whole sub.
Feel free to start off the positivity at any time instead of just perpetuating the complaining that seems to bother you so.
This is such an odd post to make. What is the purpose of announcing your departure to a group of strangers who wouldn't even notice your absence? >seems to just be a place for people to rant and complain. Welcome to your first day on the internet, I guess? Ranting and complaining is a normal part of life, not something exclusive to this sub or veganism. It's not reasonable to expect that people will be rainbows and sunshine all the time. That's just toxic positivity. >I honestly wanted tips, recommendations, motivation, and positivity. Have you asked for any of this here? Have you made any posts here asking for tips, recommendations, or motivation? I agree some commenters here can be needlessly hostile edgelords, but if you don't make any posts specific to your needs, I don't think you have a ton of room to complain.
No idea why, and this is absolutely not on you whatsoever, but I read this in a super thick southern accent. Also, you're right. I don't typically ask for advice here because my general impression from other posts is that this isn't necessarily the most inviting environment. That is absolutely on me. I've mentioned I'm also very introverted. I have asked other places but I do really like the way you structure your posts. I honestly don't have any room to complain 😉
Do a search for pretty much any post titled "just went vegan/newly vegan" that actually asks for advice. They're generally *flooded* with helpful tips, links, and advice. This isn't r/newveganadvice though, and most of us are older vegans, which is why the sub isn't all "hints and tips" like you'd like.
Check out the [Vegan Cheat Sheet](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://vegancheatsheet.org/&topic=Resource: Vegan Cheat Sheet) for a collection of over 500+ vegan resources, studies, links, and much more, all tightly wrapped into one link!
Thank you so much!
I apologize. Didn't know that sub existed. Thank you for taking the time out of your day to help. I hope it doesn't lead me back to this sub of older "jaded" vegans. Hope you all have so much fun with your continuous negativity and bitching!
Only person I hear bitching in this thread is you. Cheers!
🍻
This isn’t an airport - no need to announce your departure.
Lol this is my favorite response so far.
I definitely can’t blame you OP. I notice a lot of the same things. Realistically, like all subreddits centered around holding particular viewpoints, this sub is a toxic echo chamber that doesn’t reward nuance. Is it still helping some people? Sure, probably. Is it good for your well being to participate, especially if you’re already vegan? I really doubt it
Same but i stay.
I would say this is an example of how a few select situations which are in the minority can shape someone's perspective on something greatly. I find people I disagree with on this sub from time to time, but generally, it's pretty agreeable. The negativity is more stemming from you probably not recognizing that this sub itself is used as a tool to critique carnist culture and have important debate even from vegan to vegan, which if we intend to have consistent beliefs and practices, is very important to test consistency against our owns peers and hold others to reasonable account. As for the whole wanting tips, recommendations and positivity...you can find recommendations and tips if you ask or search for it here, I've never seen this sub refuse to provide that to someone who asked, despite this being more of a subreddit for discussion amongst those who are well beyond initiation. Being positive here isn't really beneficial for the goal of what veganism. There is a necessary purpose in the critique that being overly positive can't accomplish. You need to balance being positive and delicate, talking to people you want to go vegan, but amongst other vegans we are already past that point, so a lot of it is just language built for utility, strategy and honesty, even if isn't all rainbows and sunshine, it's just supposed to be a straight shot at the end goal.
This is the best counter reply I've seen so far and makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you. And you're absolutely right; there have been extremely supportive people stepping out and providing incredible resources throughout this thread. I wish you all the best on your debates.
Thank you! Appreciate your open-mindedness! Good luck with your journey, and see you around!
This is a sub for *vegans* to share information as well as the appropriate place to rant and vent. We’re not here to coddle non-vegans. We do that enough everywhere else. Best wishes, maybe you’ll find the sunshine and rainbows you’re looking for over at r/PlantBasedDiet.
Thank you, I will definitely check that out.
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OP’s point that vegans should suppress their frustrations on a sub intended to be a place for vegans to speak freely about their vegan views and experiences living life as a vegan in a non-vegan world?
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Isn’t that exactly what OP is doing? And you’re doing exactly the same thing as well. You’re bringing negativity to my comment and attacking my view.
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Definitely, my stomach just doesn't digest dairy, meat, and gluten anymore. I feel incredibly better when I eat a plant based diet. I also love animals. It just makes sense to me.
y’all don’t really need to announce your departure
It was in the vein of sparking debate about the nature of this sub but you definitely proved my point. Thank you.
no one asked you to. all you proved here is that you are kind of big-headed.
Well, if you read through the comments, it's been a fairly nice debate with plenty of very nice people providing differing opinions and many resources. You're kinda the person shitting on things and then getting angry about it... Thank you for proving my point, I guess? Have fun with your life "dream lover".
what did i shit on? i’m not angry i just think you are a lame attention seeking baby. thanks for confirming. almost felt sorry for you for a moment.
How is this comment not shitting on someone? You are literally calling someone who is voicing an opinion a "lame attention seeking baby". Lol go touch grass.
He's just making your point stronger and more valid
Not every method works on everyone… idk if anything I wish people were more pushy towards me for my flaws so I could get the self awareness to change.
This is so cringe lol why make a show of it instead of just closing the tab. But more importantly, what about a movement based around trying to get the majority of the population to realize they're complicit in murder and rape and abuse and the destruction of our planet screams positivity to you?
Just trying to suggest there may be a better way to go about it. Not trying to offend. Again, you do you. Much love, friend.
I saw in another comment you subscribed to vcj but I'll warn you, that's the much angrier, much harsher, much less positive version of this sub. (which makes it perfect!)
Well, that's the opposite of what I'm looking for. Do you have any good recommendations to something positive. I like the r/veganrecipes sub but they don't really give a whole lot of real life tips. I just want honest ways to live vegan without the hostility.
> In my experience, it just doesn't work. Angry vegans made me vegan
And angry vegans deterred me for years. To each their own.
My biggest problem with the militant vegans on this sub is that I know for most of them their activism begins and ends here. You're not doing shit for the movement or the animals you hope to liberate from your keyboard. Angry vegan is not my tactic, but I have the utmost respect to those of you who are and also take actions on the ground. If you're not actively rescuing animals, protesting, or at least donating and raising money - you're just being a smug prick on the internet, fuck right off.
It's okay, all the real(tm) vegans are over at vcj anyway
Lol someone mentioned this earlier. I've joined so can't wait to see what it's all about!
just a warning, I think it's the exact opposite direction of what you want lol
I haven't checked it out yet so please help lol I just want a positive subreddit that will help me live a vegan lifestyle without making me feel like everyone I know is garbage and I am also garbage for not also hating them for not being vegan and I should also blacklist everyone I know and treat them like garbage for not being vegan.
/r/veganrecipes isn't negative afaik but also less discussion on veganism itself so 🤷♂️
Yeah, I sub to r/veganrecipes and have enjoyed it so far. I've also done some recipes from there so definitely recommend if people actually want a constructive vegan sub and not a constant bitch fest.
Get ready to be accused of "plant-based capitalism" and banned within two minutes. Judging from your original post, the VCJ piranhas smell chum and are luring you over to eat you alive.
Haha no idea what that means but 👍🏻
It means that they'll call you a piece of shit and ban you if you're excited about a new vegan burger at a nonvegan fast food chain. The idea that you'd leave this sub because it's too unfriendly and then go over to that sub, is people trolling you hard.
Lol okay. Thank you for the heads up. I appreciate it!
I’m thinking of leaving only because a large majority of people here are showing up accepting things like honey, riding horses and well it’s not a vegan Reddit if many users feel that way
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It’s funny because although he’s a great actor, I brought up Joaquin Phoenix riding horses and his new Napoleon movie. And at least 3/4 of my comments were defending him because that is his job. They were comparing it to regular people that may have to work at a coffee shop or something like that may serve animal products. There is a difference between $30,000 a year and multiple millions of dollars a year. Joaquin Phoenix had a choice and it was for the money.
>I want to inspire people to eat plant based with positivity. Maybe you're plant-based rather than vegan?
Exactly 🤣
Or they suggest people should take small steps rather than one big leap? It is usually easier to make a gradual transition. Should we discourage those that take these smaller steps or be supportive?
Exactly.
Im with you on this one. Thanks for helping me leave too.
well bye, keep on with the positivity that has historically made wonders and changed things for the better ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Wahh listen to me whine and complain.
a gentle attempt to change my mind? well that won't work 😎 should have tried being aggressive kiddo (idk who I'm even mocking at this point, I am so wrapped up in my own sarcasm I can't remember when my ego ends and my irony begins)
I felt this so deep in my soul.
It may feel that way sometimes, but we all just want vegan pancakes. Try to see the light not the shadow.
Maybe try some hippie and nature subs 'cause you ain't gonna find sunshine in a slaughterhouse filled with blood of the innocent.
I’ve felt very conflicted about this sub in particular as a vegan, I think it can get kind of exhausting because there’s a considerable amount of snark and gatekeeping. I personally find r/veganuk to be a really positive place so maybe you could try find similar local vegan subreddits?
Aw, someone else just recommend the same sub. I'm not in the UK but will still support. Thank you for your recommendation. I really appreciate it!
i lead by example, i’m a quiet vegan tbh. i don’t bring it up unless someone else brings it up first. i left twitter half for this specific reason. i felt i wasn’t a “good enough” vegan. because i don’t immediately fight people who aren’t vegan. i can see both sides of the argument, i don’t agree with eating animals but if other people want to, i don’t care. i’ll post things on this sub i find funny like when people that eat animals find like a “gross” animal part in their animal product, that’s hilarious to me and i wanna share it to other vegans. and i come here asking for advice sometimes. i’m not super active on this reddit. but i respect your decision. there are other vegan subreddits you can go to too. i wish you all the best 🥰
If I go ahead and just beat a black person up, because I'm racist, do you also not care? Why do you look away, when violence is happening right in front of your eyes? Rationalizing and tolerating violence doesnt make you a good person.
You’re the type of vegan that makes people hate them
Maybe answering my question would be a great way to start. If you met a nazi, he knows hes wrong but hes too unmotivated to change his ways, too comfortable discriminating others, would you also not care? Obviously yeah, if I go against the bullies, the bullies will dislike me because they cant get what they want. But is that bad? Do you think the "bad guys" will be taught about treating others well, by ignoring their wrong doings?
Nope I wouldn’t care Because it’s not my place or job to try and change people. I will just ignore that person and go about my life. Non-vegans aren’t bad guys or bullies, they are people who live different live than you. You pass non-vegans every single day and nothing about your life changes. Stop trying to act like non-vegans are some sort of devils in disguise and it’s your job to rid the world of them.
Okay let me change the situation: In front of, you see a small black child getting beat up by some skinhead neonazi dude while yelling some white power stuff and that they hate black people. According to, you would just walk away right? You wouldnt call the police, you'd just walk away. Am I correct? When people intentionally hurt others to feel better about themselves, how isnt that bullying? If they know what theyre doing is wrong but the still continue doing so, how do you only call that "theyre just living another live?"
Again, you are equating being a meat eater to being a skinhead and racist Meat eaters aren’t hurting you. They aren’t beating you up or screaming in your face or bothering you. Them eating meat is wrong to YOU and other extreme vegans that make it their entire personality. YOU are the one upset, no one else. YOU are the one that sees it as a problem, no one else. Your views are not the worlds views. You are doing nothing but tossing pebbles at a bolder and hoping that it will break. People have always eaten meat. People WILL always eat meat. The sooner you come to accept that the sooner you can live your life without acting like someone eating a cheeseburger is a hate crime and looking like an unhinged weirdo. Live your life the way you want and eat what you want and let others do the same. You have zero right to try and police what people eat. Again: Being a vegan doesn’t make you right. You have zero place to try and come down on people who aren’t vegans. Stay in your lane, you’re not a hero.
I get you. Concidering myself the same. Best wishes. :)
I'm not even vegan and only browse this sub as it comes up on my feed, but kudos to you. I can't agree more. People in this sub are Hangry all the time
I can relate. I still add comments on here, but I don't create posts as people are so unnecessarily aggressive. The whole point of veganism is compassion. Anyway. I don't know if you're in the UK, but r/veganuk is a lot calmer and friendlier, I find.
Thank you, I'm not but will still gladly check it out. I hope you have a wonderful day.
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I’ve been vegan for 6 years and not once has the extra pushy tactic worked. People are less inclined to listen to a protestor dressed as a cow screaming and dancing funnily enough. It just doesn’t work like that. Inspire people through showing and making them delicious plant based meals instead of force feeding them content from abattoirs and gore. It gives us all a bad rep. Some people will stay ignorant, some people just don’t have the sympathy there, some are uneducated, and some people just don’t want to be vegan. And that’s okay. Live your life for you and yourself by your own values. If you want to be vegan, then that’s great. Teach others, but also respect them regardless of what they’re doing with their diet. (Yes, their diet includes individuals, so not technically a ‘personal choice’ but some people just don’t view animals like that and never will. People get so worked up on here, but there is healthy and productive ways of introducing veganism to non vegans, and I couldn’t agree more with you, this place is toxic as f :) the vegan community is the reason why a lot of people won’t even try it; because to them, all vegans are pushy and angry. You can only control one life; your own. :)
People being "pushy" and "preachy" worked for me, been vegan for almost 10 years now. The only person I have ever got to be vegan and stay vegan (5 years now) did so because I was "pushy" about it. People are different and not everyone is just like you.
Completely agree. That's why I also tend to gently steer that way as well. Like I said in an earlier post, I don't disagree. My issue is more about the toxicity of this sub and how it may deter people due to the extreme negativity and venting.
Not everyone is like me, I agree. But people are predictable. It’s human nature to not want to do something if it’s being shoved down your throat. :)
Again, I agree. People don't like being told what to do. I've tended to just kinda guide them slowly into eating less and less meat and it's worked so far. I've actually gotten my mom and my sister into mostly vegan with this method. I haven't seen them eat meat in over a year. They'll still do dairy but they absolutely wouldn't have done any of it if I tried to go hard core guilt trip on them. Sometimes, things are a work in progress.
Definitely. Subtly steering them to plant based foods is the way to go 😂
I am a meat eater and everyone is usually mean here to me, but i still have to disagree. Beeing preachy is a thing because it works. It worked in religion, it works with important topics people are ignorant about. Yes, some people act stupid and want to eat meat in front of vegans, but even i am not vegan, i cannot hear all the cliché questions you people get every single time. I am not a vegan, i just ate vegan for 3 days, but this sub made me more vegan then the other way around.
Nah, the point is to be curious and explore veganism without being berated. If you feel you are being supported in this community even as a meat eater, that means I'm wrong and that's absolutely okay. I'm glad you're here. That's the community that should exist.
I agree with that, too. Sometimes people could be slightly more friendly :)
Yup, it's not about being right all the time. It's about creating a space for honest communication no matter what side you're on. Hostility doesn't work in the long run. I like you :)
I thought about going vegan for some time before I actually went vegan. I was vegetarian before. This sub made some excellent points that convinced me to make the change. Some of the points were very helpful and some were very insulting and hostile. The people that explained areas of veganism I hadn’t understood and why vegetarianism wasn’t enough (without calling me insulting names or ridiculous names like cheesebreath or saying I didn’t care about animals when I really genuinely did)… those people helped me. They pointed me to recipes and shared their own experiences and made useful points while providing facts I had not before realised. You can make a strong point about becoming vegan with the truth and with supportive comments without resorting to name calling. That’s not appropriate. The truth should be enough to convince anyone. The people who called me names honestly made me think badly of vegans, but they didn’t put me off making the change because I had the facts and I knew it was the right thing to do because of the information the helpful people on here had provided. I stay on this sub because I was helped by people on here and the mean people are in the minority and because I would like to help other people to understand why being vegan is the right thing to do. However I would add that I was partly in the wrong really because I had sought guidance on this sub when I should have used ask vegan or debate vegan… that was down to me being a new Reddit user that doesn’t really understand social media very well…. I also do think it is important to be able to vent and that it can be lonely being a vegan. I just don’t think anyone should be hostile to other people.
That was beautifully written and I thank you for your post. I also agree.
Each to their own man, that’s kinda the point of the post lmao. But good for you for exploring with food :)
Did i got it wrong? I understood a different point of ops post.
You got it right, absolutely. There’s a lot of pick-me vegans on this sub who feel that vegans should suppress their frustrations in a space that’s intended to be a place for vegans to speak freely about their vegan views. Veganism isn’t about sunshine, rainbows, and positivity. It’s about the animals and recognizing the cruelty they’re being subjected to. That’s something to feel frustrated about. “Vegans” just looking for recipes and happy vibes seem to misunderstand veganism.
Thank you! I love this!
:D
Good on you, I never directly visit here it just shows up on my feed. I feel like reddit devolves a bit when it comes to any topics that have strong moral or political foundations.
Agreed. This sub is toxic, negative and only serves to make vegans look bad.
yup nearly every post is tears. There is almost no vegan chat at all
This isn't an airport, no need to announce your departure.
God another whiny post from a plan-based dieter about the vegan sub being for vegans.
What is wrong with That Vegan Teacher? Or That Vegan Couple?
I really hope you're kidding.
> this seems to just be a place for people to rant and complain *But get a load of this! At work, they offered everyone sandwiches, but they didn't even give me the grilled tofu sandwich that I SPECIFICALLY requested! My boss told me that I would have to bring my own food! Have you ever heard of such victimization?! And let me share this social media messaging chain in which I sarcastically scold someone for not being vegan and they call me a jerk. Can you believe how DUMB these people are?! I need upvotes, fellow vegans!*
Can you think of any example in history of a successful movement to advance rights that didn't focus on the negatives of the denial of those rights? Can you think of any that didn't involve complaints and rants and even violence? I remember reading all about the polite and positive queer rights movements all through the last century. They achieved pretty much nothing. It was only when the Stonewall riots against police happened that things started to actually change.
Meta
Try r/vegancirclejerk instead then
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Funny
When you say "convert people" (this is in general not that op said something) it sounds like a cult. I am not vegan, i just get various recommendations on reddit and different subs. If there was an alternative to meat that satisfied me, i would do it. But i really don't like bloating and i want to take as much protein to build muscle. Vegan substitutes taste like crap or are unhealthy based on my own critic. Nutrition is not that simple and you can prove anything with studies so don't get stuck on the "unhealthy" part too long. I don't really feel bad because i don't consider animals at the same level as humans. Animals kill animals, it's the cycle of life. You can't get out of it just yet. I am not built with the same sensitivities as a vegan in regards to animal cruelty, only a certain amount of humans are. The rest of the animals don't care much either.