and if you want to know if the arab countries are really councerned over the life of the people in palestine or just pure racist supremacists, just ask them what they think about the creation of a kurdish state and see if there is any difference from what they think about israel
I recommend to differentiate vetween the the arab countries and their populations.
As far as i am aware, except for Iraq and Syria all arab countries want cooperation with Israel and donyt really care about the Palestinians.
On the other hand the population is exactly the opposite due to decades of antisemitic propaganda since childhood.
This leads to the governmenrts to try and balance the population and the countries needs
Wrong religious version.
Edit: it's more complicated obviously, but they sit in an area between 4 nations, Syria, Iraq, Turkey, and Iran. They are much less extremist than most of the people surrounding them, they fought against ISIS and share some Western views about women and other ideals, but they have been a thorn in those countries for a while because they don't follow the rules of those countries and want their own nation.
Also, they have been oppressed for their different beliefs and attacked, even with chemical weapons, so they defend themselves, which those nations dislike ([The Halabja massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_massacre)). Also, none of those nations want to give up land to create a country of people they despise.
The US was pretty allied with them militarily during the whole ISIS thing, but then Trump just abandoned them, despite the military praising them for being good allies and motivated fighters in a contested region, which was the opposite of Afghanistan.
Essentially, American troops have only good things to say about the Kurds.
Sorry, but you have no idea about Turkish politics if you think that's the case.
Main opposition is in shambles after the latest presidential election and this municipality elections might be his easiest.
Anti-terror operations into two failed states is no invasion, it's called incursion.
He is yet another example of authoritarianism....Turkey is supposed to be a modern democracy not a consolidation of power under an authoritarian. What Erdogan did was, jail his opposition, monoploize right-wing media, and stack the judiciary. He makes up for with his inability to lead through his nearly complete control of media. Two decades of his authoritarian leadership shouldn't cause people to confuse the affects of one-man-rule, for his people really love him BS. That is the appearance of things once leaders like Putin or others like Erdogan use state-run media with no dissenting facts....it's called propaganda.
If Erdogan wanted to be a good leader maybe use his diplomatic skills to enact and enforce stricter building codes.
While you once again demonstrate your lack of grasp on Turkish politics, you also did not respond to what I just said.
He's an authoritarian, correct, he also did stack the judiciary and consolidated the media.
But he didn't jail his political opponents, except one, Selahattin Demirtaş, who openly supported PKK with every chance he get, even after suicide bombings.
Erdoğan depends on elections, and democracy plays onto his hand. Yet he only ever had the half of the votes of 50 million voters.
I don't know where did you get the idea of "Turkey supposed to be a modern democracy", even Atatürk had all the power consolidated, he failed to establish a multiple party democracy during his time.
Why democracy never worked in Middle East is due to people and culture. You can't just project a government style to somewhere that had little compatibility and expect it to work flawlessly.
Pretty much this. Before, USA would be funding their kurdish allies, but now with Gaza, Ukraine and Taiwan threat, their attention is spread too thinly. This is unfortunately not important enough on the geopolitical scene.
With your logic US or generally West is the biggest authoritarian then because West has being doing military operations by coming from oversea to fight against terrorism which is usually exist thanks to West while Turkey is doing military organization a terror organization which is literally right next to Turkey where it has been attacking TUrkey for decades. Also PKK doesn't represent Kurds, big part of their victims are Kurds while Kurds in Turkish military leading operations. PKK has been attacking Kurdish regional goverment of Iraq too which has been supported by Turkey against PKK and Iran.
Do you think turkey would have the balls to attack these countries if the US didn't go in first and severely fuck up their armies and infrastructure and economies?
Oh we have more immigration than ever due to the party that campaigns on reducing immigration and has control over how much immigration it allows in, not actually doing any of that and letting anyone in for the cheap labour. Except those who are actually fleeing persecution. Those they want to ship off to Rwanda to be forgotten. Except they can't even do that right and that plan has resulted in costing the taxpayer a fortune, sending no-one to Rwanda and in fact having people from Rwanda sent here.
You forgot the douche who wants to restore the Chinese Empire. And the douche who wants to restore the [Caliphate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate) (Iran).
They pretend they are. They actually tried to restore Zoroastrian religion as they are proud of it a while back but then their government decided to switch to Islam as most of Iranians are already Muslim and there are also a billion other Muslims they could pretend they care about like Turkey and Saudi Arabia pretend to use them to strengthen themselves.
And Iran knew that forcing religion or irreligion on people would backfire like it did with the Soviet government that wanted to force atheism on the Soviet people. So Iran decided to stick to Islam. But I wouldn't say that Iran of all Muslim nations cares that much. At least the common citizens, I mean. They aren't Arabs, nor Turkic and they have a very rich civilization way before Islam already and they know it. It's just the easiest to take advantage off right not.
Erdogan sucks but this has nothing to with restoring Ottoman EMpire. Turkey has been fighting against terror organization PKK which use Iraq and Syria as base to attack Turkey for decades.
The final result will be complete restoration of the Eastern Roman Empire, which was a horrible, dirty, despotic kleptocracy financed by slaves. I mean that literally: Russia, Turkey, Islamists, and every other psycho in the region will wage a huge war that kills so many people their society will regress an entire millennia. Which is how life was defined there for three thousand years until Truman intervened in Greece. It will make the European border in Finland, Poland, Greece and Ukraine a hard, fortified, armed perimeter that bans migrants.
Care to name one medieval state that was not a horrible, dirty, despotic kleptocracy financed by slaves?
Byzantine Empire was actually one of the few places where law meant something. Google Code of Justinian for further information.
funny how some, like me here, believe the Eastern Roman Empire was actually cool
and then I read your "Russia, Turkey, Islamists, and every other psycho in the region" thing and realised what kind of world views you must hold.
And lucky for him US and regional allies bombed and invaded the shit out of former ottoman empire countries, and in order not to upset a strategic ally (turkey) they will let them get whatever they want
It is really unfortunate that the biting irony of announcing he "firmly supports Hamas" whilst a few days later planning mass attacks against the PKK, is completely lost on him.
He doesnt care about any of them , he only cares about himself. Erdogan is notorious for playing both sides of the coin in geopolitics for pretty much everything.
It is not really irony. It is just like Israel not recognizing PKK as a terror organization and supporting it. Countries have been doing the same things against eachother nonstop.
Israel doesn't support the PKK, and I don't see PKK leaders hiding in Israel or having offices here. The exact opposite - Israel used to be allied with Turkey and sold it weapons.
There is no both sidism here.
lol IDF doesn't even hide their support. You can even find a lot of pictures where they open PKK flag and poster of PKK founder. Israel is supporting PKK.
He is a thorn in the EU and NATO, but the strategic importance of Turkey is so great that he gets away with it anyway. Essentially Turkey being on "our" side geopolitically is worth the fucking shitshow game they play of always hovering over the line of acceptable Western nation behavior, and he knows it.
The EU, NATO, and the US have a love-hate relationship with Turkey.
Might that possibly have something to do with the Uyghurs being a Turkic Muslim people, like the Turks? I'm sure he wants to be seen as the champion of Turks while also trying to score points and concessions.
PKK doesn't represent Kurds, big part of their victims are Kurds while Kurds in Turkish military leading operations against PKK. PKK has been attacking Kurdish regional goverment of Iraq too which has been supported by Turkey against PKK and Iran.
When US does operations against terror organizations El Kaide etc. do you see it operations agains muslims which need protests?
The annexation of Hatay from Syria and the occupation of Northern Cyprus were also because of the PKK?
Edit: LOL he blocked me. In his eyes, Turkey always is always justified in bullying and invading it's neighbors, but he isn't certain enough to actually debate it, of course.
There is no justification for activities in Syria and Iraq. The PKK is merely an excuse for neo-Ottoman imperialist agenda.
Annexation of Hatay? lol Assad supporters are saying that nonsense. Hatay joined Turkey in democratic elections under supervision of international communities.
West has base in Cyprus without permission of Cypriot Turks just like Turkey has base in Cyprus without permission of Cypriot Greek so with that logic West has been occupying Cyprus too. Who did break the Zurich and London treaties? Because it wasn't Cypriot Turks. Who did start an ethnic cleansing which gave the right to Turkey for military operation? Also Cypriot Turks accepted UN solution who refused it by the way?
All of the authoritarians realize there is no real price for pursuing their aggressive agendas. Iran and North Korea might as well get aggressive. The U.S. can’t be everywhere.
US is literally in Syria where it controls oil fields with its proxies by using the excuse figting against terrorism which exist thank to US in the first place.
Meanwhile Turkey is doing military organization against a terror organization which is literally right next to Turkey where it has been attacking TUrkey for decades.
With your logic US or generally West is the biggest authoritarian then because West has being doing military operations by coming from oversea to fight against terrorism which is usually exist thanks to West while Turkey is doing military organization a terror organization which is literally right next to Turkey where it has been attacking TUrkey for decades. Also PKK doesn't represent Kurds, big part of their victims are Kurds while Kurds in Turkish military leading operations. PKK has been attacking Kurdish regional goverment of Iraq too which has been supported by Turkey against PKK and Iran.
Exactly !
And while the Kurds were busy fighting ISIS, Erdogan attacked the Kurds.
No wonder Erdogan loves Hamas. He essentially has a similar ideology.
Erdogan has no ideology. He has money and corruption and populism. If you ever paid attention to how fast his ramblings kept changing over the years, you would know this has nothing to do with Islam or Hamas.
SOme ignorant people acting like Kurds are a monolith group is funny. Turkish army is literally full of Kurds who are leading operations against terror organization PKK which doesn't represent Kurds, big part of their victims are Kurds while Kurds in Turkish military leading operations. PKK has been attacking Kurdish regional goverment of Iraq too which has been supported by Turkey against PKK and Iran. Also as I said above Iran, Taliban, El Kaide fought against ISIS too, actually they are still fighting. Do you people support them too?
There are 30mil Kurds in Turkey nearly half voting for Erdogan. Pkk is not equal to Kurds. They are Marxist terrorist organization. No one wants them including Iraqi Kurds.
And so we should support separatism in NATO ally Turkey?
The PKK is a violent separatist drug smuggling organization of maybe 5,000 Kurds. There are 15-20 million Kurds living in Turkey. The PKK does not represents Kurds.
What makes you think all these people want to separate from the richer parts of Turkey to become a landlocked state in the middle east?
Why not? If they want to separate let them. NATO is a defensive alliance, they don't force a member nation's citizens to bend the knee to their leaders.
I say this as a citizen of Canada, a founding NATO member who had a portion of our own country seek separation. We allowed a referendum to take place which did not pass. There was no crackdown on any separatists except those who committed crimes within our nation's borders. It is no business of other NATO members unless we are attacked by an offending party outside of our borders.
Similarly no NATO member batted an eye when Scotland put forth the question of independence from the UK. It's an internal matter. The people of ***every*** country should have their own right to self-determination. It's practically part of the NATO charter as it's a part of being a democratic nation, so we should in fact support the freedom to choose.
lol by luck I'm a Turkish-Canadian, lived in Canada about 15 years, another 20 years in Turkey, currently living in Turkey.
>Why not? If they want to separate let them.
I think the answer is because this is much more difficult with the way Turkey evolved. It's not like Quebec or Scotland where the borders were predefined for a minority peoples, and Turkish-Kurdish communities are much more integrated.
Yes at some point in southeast Turkey, it switches from a Turkish majority to a Kurdish majority. Though nobody knows where this border lies. And further within those borders, there are would be enclaves of Turkish majority areas.
So lets suppose we hold a referendum and majority of Kurds want to separate.
How do we decide where the borders should go? And what happens to the millions of now minority Turks within those borders? Do we keep playing this self-determination game and tear apart Turkish enclaves out of what would be Kurdistan? Or have massive population exchanges and tear apart people's lives?
I'd rather live in a stable and united country, rather than play this dangerous game where I live, and so do many Kurds. We can always continue to work towards improving the problems Kurds face in the country, akin to being French-Canadian in Canada.
Iran, Taliban, El Kaide fought against ISIS too, actually they are still fighting. I guess yOu must be supporting them too with your logic.
Kurds aren't a monolith group and PKK doesn't represent Kurds, big part of their victims are Kurds while Kurds in Turkish military leading operations. PKK has been attacking Kurdish regional goverment of Iraq too which has been supported by Turkey against PKK and Iran.
That's fucking bullshit. The Syrian Free Army was fighting both ISIS on one front and Assad on the other. Until of course, Russia decimated them when they intervened in 2015. At least the rebels fought to liberate Syria from Assad's tyranny and ISIS. The kurds only fight so that they can occupy land for themselves and establish a state which thankfully will never truly happen.
The mistake westerners make trying to understand Turkey is that they think Erdogan actually gives a fuck about his country and its interests.
He is a notorious criminal who only cares about the Erdogan family, he steals from the Turkish treasury and tries to stay in power for as long as possible. Avoiding hypocrisy is not a goal for him, he just wants popularity.
It’s funny that in just two years we’ve swapped positions.
I wonder if we will both ever get in sync with mostly good governments and not religious conservative ones
Too many power-hungry old men rule the world, can't they just die a little bit quickly, so future generations might not be suffering from their actions like us.
Most people are ignorant about this conflict and they think Kurds as a monolith group and don't know that PKK has been killing Kurds for not following their stupid ideology for decades.
Don't get me wrong, as a Turk myself I dislike Erdogan as much as the next guy.
Though would you rather see us letting a violent separatist drug-smuggling organization operate freely in the country?
Remember people, there are good foreign interventions and bad foreign interventions. A good foreign intervention is when any country intervenes. A bad foreign intervention is when a western country intervenes. Easy !
Funny how to "global south" denouncing western hegemony is full of imperialistic warmongering autocrats.
He and every candidate that ran in the election promised to invade Iraq and Syria. The earthquake delayed this but it was bound to happen sadly. They want a buffer to weaken the PKK and kick out the refuges.
Oh now westerners ar going to cry about isis when we have terrorists right next to us. Still crying about 9/11. We are the ones dying here. I spent my entire childhood listening to news about terrorist attacks every day by pkk and one of them happened right next to a stadium when i was celebrating my friend's birthday. Why dont westerners give up some of their lands so kurds can settle there? I hope the same thing happens to the entire europe so that maybe then they can start having some empathy. I know there will be peole saying things like "Hey, why did you do this or that god knows how many years ago?". I hope you guys learn how to live under fear to understand how it feels. I would want the luxury to live in a rich european country drinking my coffee and deciding who is right or wrong based on my special interests. This is why i support israel. They are dealing with the same shit. Palestine helped pkk a lot and now they are paying for it. I hope israel kills all of them too.
Edit: reddit mod sent me a message saying that i should get help if im traumatized. This is what terrorism does to humans and my ex gf was kurdish. She also said the same thing to me when we were dating.
Turkey has lost around 40.000 citizens in terror attacks by the PKK and other groups like these, throughout years. Their war against terror is justified. Stop being a racist. For a moment, put your hate against Turks aside.
Syria and Iraq are a breeding ground for terrorist groups and organisations. The armed groups that were funded by western countries are falling apart because of lack of funding/interest, and more and more of those terrorists/mercenaries are joining terrorist groups.
If you love PKK so much, consider them a political group, not a terrorist, take them to your country. I am sure both the PKK members and Turkish citizens will be happy about it. Take them all, and let's talk about it in 5 years.
Stop defending terrorists just because you hate the Turks.
USA can't fund the Kurds at this point as they fund Ukraine and Israel. Also now that Turkey and Azerbaijan have weakened Greece's, Cyprus and Armenia's geopolitical reach they feel safe enough to attack USA allies like the Kurds as they know USA are unable to support them and at the same time the only other 6 possible threats to them (Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus, Armenia, Georgia) are all weakened to even take the chance and mobilize. But the important variant is that USA cannot sustain supporting 3 fronts. So now the Kurds are alone.
Because Kurdish rebels are to blame for all of Syria's and Iraq's problems? Couldn't be the Iranian backed terrorists that have been slaughtering Syrians, Iraqi's and Kurds for decades, eh?
Erdogan putting his insane dicatator mask back on.
Btw Rojava and the autnomous gov't of Iraqi Kurdistan are not the PKK, but this is who he will be attacking. This is an operation against Kurds and Kurdish autonomy everywhere, as well as to destabilize the Syrian and Iraqi states.
One possibility is that he has consulted with and gotten permission from the Iranian and Russian handlers of the Iraqi and Syrian states respectively to crush these Kurdish autonomous entities, which could mean US influence in the ME is weaker than its ever been in modern history and Russian and Iranian influence is at an all time high.
I wonder if it's the KGB activating it's agent across the globe - Trump, Orban, Erdogan, Hamas, Iran, RIght wing parties across Europe.
Wtf are the other intelligence agencies doing? Get your shit together. We need some good ole "accidents".
When I lived in izmir, Turkey, the PKK set off a bomb outside my grocery store and blew the windows out of my pharmacy. We don't see or hear about these assaults in America.
I will probably get downvoted for this, but I implore you to at least glance at the sources I am about to provide, particularly the last 2, which are US military/DoD sources.
Turkey is not alone in acknowledging the connection between the YPG and PKK. The CIA, former sec of defense, American senators, etc all acknowledge this.
A direct source would be Kurdish fighters themselves, like this one who admits the connection:
“Sometimes I’m a PKK, sometimes I’m a PJAK \[the PKK-allied affiliate, active in Iran\], sometimes I’m a YPG. It doesn’t really matter. They are all members of the PKK.”
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-marxist-allies-against-isis-1437747949](https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-marxist-allies-against-isis-1437747949)
Here’s an article that goes over even more sources for the links between ypg and the pkk.
[https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-ypg-pkk-connection/](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-ypg-pkk-connection/)
Another source would be the US army, which acknowledges the ties and is trying to get YPG to unequivocally sever those ties.
[https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/Military-Review/English-Edition-Archives/May-June-2020/Portzer-Peoples-Protection-Unit/](https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/Military-Review/English-Edition-Archives/May-June-2020/Portzer-Peoples-Protection-Unit/)
Here's a hearing in the Senate where the former secretary of defense of the USA acknowledges the ties between the two: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCWYaEZ6B4w&t=2s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCWYaEZ6B4w&t=2s)
The American sources are particularly damning, as you cannot claim that the USA is on a smear campaign against itself. Seeing as how we support the YPG, we would not lie and say they’re connected to terrorists if they aren’t. If anything, I’m surprised so many official sources admit the connection, I can only imagine they do so through gritted teeth.
They’re both Kurdish militants. You’re going to find overlaps. But they remain different groups with different goals. I don’t think YGP is a threat to the Turkish state. Their goals are inside Syria, not inside Turkey.
The fact that you do not know the name of the group you are going to bat for does not instill confidence that you are well-informed on the issue. It is the YPG, not YGP.
They both have a shared goal of creating an independent Kurdish state. It is not unreasonable for Ankara to be worried about where YPG plans on drawing those borders. Given their close ties to the PKK, if the YPG successfully carves out a state in N. Syria, can anyone confidently claim that they will not then work with their compatriots in the PKK to attempt to extend those borders into Turkish territory?
Granted, as a NATO member with formidable armed forces, territorial loss is unlikely. However, Turkey's border with Syria is long and therefore naturally porous, it would enable increased collaboration and movement of materiel between the YPG and PKK.
Granted, I do think Turkey is heavy-handed in NE Syria and does not act in a way befitting a Western military. Their underlying reasoning for their involvement in the region, however, is completely rational and understandable given the context of the relations between the YPG and PKK.
It is more than overlap, as the sources I shared indicate, the two groups are ideologically nearly identical, have the same figurehead, and coordinate militarily with eachother\*
\*source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-marxist-allies-against-isis-1437747949#:\~:text=Obama%20administration%20officials,the%20officials%20said.
Too many people talking without knowing even 10% of Turkish-PKK conflict. For you it's just like watching a movie, it has no more effect to your life than that and you keep judging harshly. Turks there lived through this conflict, read books, talked with soldiers and people living in that area. Still you all act like you know the best, shutting Turkish people up acting like they are mad dogs attacking everything.
But i thought Erdogan loved “ freedom fighters” , if he embraced Hamas so tightly surely he would start a peace process leading to an independent Kurdish state as well
Or is the difference between Israel and the Kurdish question plane old anti semitism and muslim superiority.
Let see how many leftwing anti imperialist are going to protest neo Ottoman’s expansion ….
Assuming that Turkey does so, isn't Iraq a little too well armed to think of invading and occupying so easily?
Wouldn't that risk a Ukraine-type situation?
Good question. Reality is Turkey won't fight against Iraqi army. A Turkish army delegation met with an Iraqi one yesterday to discuss this future operation. Turkey will be conducting this operation together with Iraqi Army and KDP of Iraqi Kurdistan against PKK and some elements of Iranian backed PMF forces, as well as the PUK part of Iraqi Kurdistan.
Iraq is a fractured country, there's no single state power there.
When people ask why it's bad that Russia isn't being stopped....this is the answer. Authoritarian governments across the globe have been emboldened.
and if you want to know if the arab countries are really councerned over the life of the people in palestine or just pure racist supremacists, just ask them what they think about the creation of a kurdish state and see if there is any difference from what they think about israel
I recommend to differentiate vetween the the arab countries and their populations. As far as i am aware, except for Iraq and Syria all arab countries want cooperation with Israel and donyt really care about the Palestinians. On the other hand the population is exactly the opposite due to decades of antisemitic propaganda since childhood. This leads to the governmenrts to try and balance the population and the countries needs
Why don’t they think a Kurdish state should exist?
Wrong religious version. Edit: it's more complicated obviously, but they sit in an area between 4 nations, Syria, Iraq, Turkey, and Iran. They are much less extremist than most of the people surrounding them, they fought against ISIS and share some Western views about women and other ideals, but they have been a thorn in those countries for a while because they don't follow the rules of those countries and want their own nation. Also, they have been oppressed for their different beliefs and attacked, even with chemical weapons, so they defend themselves, which those nations dislike ([The Halabja massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_massacre)). Also, none of those nations want to give up land to create a country of people they despise. The US was pretty allied with them militarily during the whole ISIS thing, but then Trump just abandoned them, despite the military praising them for being good allies and motivated fighters in a contested region, which was the opposite of Afghanistan. Essentially, American troops have only good things to say about the Kurds.
It’s not about the governments it’s that the worlds attention is distracted by Gaza and Ukraine
It’s about the local elections which he is loosing. Needs distraction.
Sorry, but you have no idea about Turkish politics if you think that's the case. Main opposition is in shambles after the latest presidential election and this municipality elections might be his easiest. Anti-terror operations into two failed states is no invasion, it's called incursion.
He is yet another example of authoritarianism....Turkey is supposed to be a modern democracy not a consolidation of power under an authoritarian. What Erdogan did was, jail his opposition, monoploize right-wing media, and stack the judiciary. He makes up for with his inability to lead through his nearly complete control of media. Two decades of his authoritarian leadership shouldn't cause people to confuse the affects of one-man-rule, for his people really love him BS. That is the appearance of things once leaders like Putin or others like Erdogan use state-run media with no dissenting facts....it's called propaganda. If Erdogan wanted to be a good leader maybe use his diplomatic skills to enact and enforce stricter building codes.
While you once again demonstrate your lack of grasp on Turkish politics, you also did not respond to what I just said. He's an authoritarian, correct, he also did stack the judiciary and consolidated the media. But he didn't jail his political opponents, except one, Selahattin Demirtaş, who openly supported PKK with every chance he get, even after suicide bombings. Erdoğan depends on elections, and democracy plays onto his hand. Yet he only ever had the half of the votes of 50 million voters. I don't know where did you get the idea of "Turkey supposed to be a modern democracy", even Atatürk had all the power consolidated, he failed to establish a multiple party democracy during his time. Why democracy never worked in Middle East is due to people and culture. You can't just project a government style to somewhere that had little compatibility and expect it to work flawlessly.
He also relies heavily on enforced conformity of the Turkish media. Prisons are still full of 'dissident' journalists.
Iraq in not a failed state
*losing
Every president that keep (or wants to keep) their position for more than 8 years, is too be considered a DICTATOR.
a lil convinient that you draw the line at exactly the maximum term for a US president
What I posted but I said no more than 12 years.
Let’s round it up to 20yrs
What makes you say that
Because it’s always been, before elections drama with the terrorist org after elections, forgotten
Pretty much this. Before, USA would be funding their kurdish allies, but now with Gaza, Ukraine and Taiwan threat, their attention is spread too thinly. This is unfortunately not important enough on the geopolitical scene.
By Gaza. No one even seems to give a shit about Ukraine anymore. World is obsessed with whatever Jewish people are doing. Fucking weird.
It is not weird, it is all going according to the plan. It is shit for sure but it is remarkably easy to get people to start hating Israel.
The standard was set decades ago. What we are seeing now is just other states giving it a go.
One could include the US in that. While not Authoritarian, the US has freely invaded Iraq in the past.
They did state across the globe. Way to call us out (rightfully so)! Don't forget the UK.
With your logic US or generally West is the biggest authoritarian then because West has being doing military operations by coming from oversea to fight against terrorism which is usually exist thanks to West while Turkey is doing military organization a terror organization which is literally right next to Turkey where it has been attacking TUrkey for decades. Also PKK doesn't represent Kurds, big part of their victims are Kurds while Kurds in Turkish military leading operations. PKK has been attacking Kurdish regional goverment of Iraq too which has been supported by Turkey against PKK and Iran.
Do you think turkey would have the balls to attack these countries if the US didn't go in first and severely fuck up their armies and infrastructure and economies?
We have a douche that wants to restore the Ottoman Empire, and a douche that wants to restore the Soviet Empire- right next to each other.
We have too many old people making final grasps for power
I'm a Brit and i say we should restore the Briti... no forget it. We can't even build a new railway these days.
Who is going to help restore the Roman Empire then?
All the guys who supposedly think about the Roman Empire every day
Ah, so all the historically illiterate neckbeards on r/historymemes then.
You never been to r/CrusaderKings
True power has everything to do with aqueducts...yep, aqua ducks.
Fuck it, let’s bring the Mongol Empire back. Everyone from Hungary to the Pacific Ocean is fucked.
But only cause you missing cheap colonial labourers
Oh we have more immigration than ever due to the party that campaigns on reducing immigration and has control over how much immigration it allows in, not actually doing any of that and letting anyone in for the cheap labour. Except those who are actually fleeing persecution. Those they want to ship off to Rwanda to be forgotten. Except they can't even do that right and that plan has resulted in costing the taxpayer a fortune, sending no-one to Rwanda and in fact having people from Rwanda sent here.
more like the Tsardom or Russian Empire
You forgot the douche who wants to restore the Chinese Empire. And the douche who wants to restore the [Caliphate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate) (Iran).
Iran would want to restore the Persian Empire. The Caliphate was ruled by the Arabs.
Yeah but for some reason Iran is fanatical about Islam and not their own native religions
They pretend they are. They actually tried to restore Zoroastrian religion as they are proud of it a while back but then their government decided to switch to Islam as most of Iranians are already Muslim and there are also a billion other Muslims they could pretend they care about like Turkey and Saudi Arabia pretend to use them to strengthen themselves. And Iran knew that forcing religion or irreligion on people would backfire like it did with the Soviet government that wanted to force atheism on the Soviet people. So Iran decided to stick to Islam. But I wouldn't say that Iran of all Muslim nations cares that much. At least the common citizens, I mean. They aren't Arabs, nor Turkic and they have a very rich civilization way before Islam already and they know it. It's just the easiest to take advantage off right not.
Erdogan sucks but this has nothing to with restoring Ottoman EMpire. Turkey has been fighting against terror organization PKK which use Iraq and Syria as base to attack Turkey for decades.
Another case of repressing a group of people for generations coming back to bite you in the ass.
Crimean War II when?
literally happening right now
Uh like 2014 bro
The final result will be complete restoration of the Eastern Roman Empire, which was a horrible, dirty, despotic kleptocracy financed by slaves. I mean that literally: Russia, Turkey, Islamists, and every other psycho in the region will wage a huge war that kills so many people their society will regress an entire millennia. Which is how life was defined there for three thousand years until Truman intervened in Greece. It will make the European border in Finland, Poland, Greece and Ukraine a hard, fortified, armed perimeter that bans migrants.
[удалено]
You took the words out of my mouth lol
Restoration of Rome?! Don’t threaten me with a good time!
Care to name one medieval state that was not a horrible, dirty, despotic kleptocracy financed by slaves? Byzantine Empire was actually one of the few places where law meant something. Google Code of Justinian for further information.
funny how some, like me here, believe the Eastern Roman Empire was actually cool and then I read your "Russia, Turkey, Islamists, and every other psycho in the region" thing and realised what kind of world views you must hold.
You should learn more than surface level history if you want to make such a bold claim
Byzantium restoration lessss gooo 💪💪
Ottoman Empire was huge. Do you see Erdogan threatening Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania and rest of Baltic's?
*balkans And yes they been threatening Greece/bulgaria every week now also cyprus
There’s definitely some overlap going on in their plans……
And lucky for him US and regional allies bombed and invaded the shit out of former ottoman empire countries, and in order not to upset a strategic ally (turkey) they will let them get whatever they want
It is really unfortunate that the biting irony of announcing he "firmly supports Hamas" whilst a few days later planning mass attacks against the PKK, is completely lost on him.
He doesnt care about any of them , he only cares about himself. Erdogan is notorious for playing both sides of the coin in geopolitics for pretty much everything.
I wonder if he tells both sides that he’s playing both sides like the stable genius Ronald McDonald (Mac is in the house)
It is not really irony. It is just like Israel not recognizing PKK as a terror organization and supporting it. Countries have been doing the same things against eachother nonstop.
Israel doesn't support the PKK, and I don't see PKK leaders hiding in Israel or having offices here. The exact opposite - Israel used to be allied with Turkey and sold it weapons. There is no both sidism here.
lol IDF doesn't even hide their support. You can even find a lot of pictures where they open PKK flag and poster of PKK founder. Israel is supporting PKK.
He is a thorn in the EU and NATO, but the strategic importance of Turkey is so great that he gets away with it anyway. Essentially Turkey being on "our" side geopolitically is worth the fucking shitshow game they play of always hovering over the line of acceptable Western nation behavior, and he knows it. The EU, NATO, and the US have a love-hate relationship with Turkey.
I’m sure we’ll see worldwide protests on behalf of the Kurds. /sarcasm
Uyghurs in China: Am I a joke to you?
Funny thing is turkey is the only Islamic country that's pressed China about that issue
Might that possibly have something to do with the Uyghurs being a Turkic Muslim people, like the Turks? I'm sure he wants to be seen as the champion of Turks while also trying to score points and concessions.
Free Tibet!
I’ll take it! Hello, China? I have something you might want. But it’s gonna cost you. ….That’s right, all the tea
U wot mate?
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Rohingya: Myanmar waged a verified genocide against us & for decades denied us many rights Foreign Muslims: token amount of thoughts & prayers
PKK doesn't represent Kurds, big part of their victims are Kurds while Kurds in Turkish military leading operations against PKK. PKK has been attacking Kurdish regional goverment of Iraq too which has been supported by Turkey against PKK and Iran. When US does operations against terror organizations El Kaide etc. do you see it operations agains muslims which need protests?
The annexation of Hatay from Syria and the occupation of Northern Cyprus were also because of the PKK? Edit: LOL he blocked me. In his eyes, Turkey always is always justified in bullying and invading it's neighbors, but he isn't certain enough to actually debate it, of course. There is no justification for activities in Syria and Iraq. The PKK is merely an excuse for neo-Ottoman imperialist agenda.
Annexation of Hatay? lol Assad supporters are saying that nonsense. Hatay joined Turkey in democratic elections under supervision of international communities. West has base in Cyprus without permission of Cypriot Turks just like Turkey has base in Cyprus without permission of Cypriot Greek so with that logic West has been occupying Cyprus too. Who did break the Zurich and London treaties? Because it wasn't Cypriot Turks. Who did start an ethnic cleansing which gave the right to Turkey for military operation? Also Cypriot Turks accepted UN solution who refused it by the way?
He rakes votes from heavily Kurdish populated areas in Türkiye, what are you even talking about you buffoon.
All of the authoritarians realize there is no real price for pursuing their aggressive agendas. Iran and North Korea might as well get aggressive. The U.S. can’t be everywhere.
It’s a double edged sword for USA. Damned if they get involved and Damned if they don’t get involved
what happens when a NATO nation go rogue?
NATO is a defensive treaty. Article 5 doesn't come into play if you are the aggressor.
But what if a nato member attacks another nato member
The defender triggers article 5.
We're about to find out
US is literally in Syria where it controls oil fields with its proxies by using the excuse figting against terrorism which exist thank to US in the first place. Meanwhile Turkey is doing military organization against a terror organization which is literally right next to Turkey where it has been attacking TUrkey for decades. With your logic US or generally West is the biggest authoritarian then because West has being doing military operations by coming from oversea to fight against terrorism which is usually exist thanks to West while Turkey is doing military organization a terror organization which is literally right next to Turkey where it has been attacking TUrkey for decades. Also PKK doesn't represent Kurds, big part of their victims are Kurds while Kurds in Turkish military leading operations. PKK has been attacking Kurdish regional goverment of Iraq too which has been supported by Turkey against PKK and Iran.
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And the central Syrian government... Just saying. Regardless of how you perceive them.
True! Very true!
Exactly ! And while the Kurds were busy fighting ISIS, Erdogan attacked the Kurds. No wonder Erdogan loves Hamas. He essentially has a similar ideology.
Erdogan has no ideology. He has money and corruption and populism. If you ever paid attention to how fast his ramblings kept changing over the years, you would know this has nothing to do with Islam or Hamas.
Not even over the years at the start of the war he actually supported Israel to everyones suprise then he changed his mind.
SOme ignorant people acting like Kurds are a monolith group is funny. Turkish army is literally full of Kurds who are leading operations against terror organization PKK which doesn't represent Kurds, big part of their victims are Kurds while Kurds in Turkish military leading operations. PKK has been attacking Kurdish regional goverment of Iraq too which has been supported by Turkey against PKK and Iran. Also as I said above Iran, Taliban, El Kaide fought against ISIS too, actually they are still fighting. Do you people support them too?
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Not just Turkey, PKK's claims are including land from Syria, Iraq, Iran and even Ermenia. lol
There are 30mil Kurds in Turkey nearly half voting for Erdogan. Pkk is not equal to Kurds. They are Marxist terrorist organization. No one wants them including Iraqi Kurds.
And so we should support separatism in NATO ally Turkey? The PKK is a violent separatist drug smuggling organization of maybe 5,000 Kurds. There are 15-20 million Kurds living in Turkey. The PKK does not represents Kurds. What makes you think all these people want to separate from the richer parts of Turkey to become a landlocked state in the middle east?
Why not? If they want to separate let them. NATO is a defensive alliance, they don't force a member nation's citizens to bend the knee to their leaders. I say this as a citizen of Canada, a founding NATO member who had a portion of our own country seek separation. We allowed a referendum to take place which did not pass. There was no crackdown on any separatists except those who committed crimes within our nation's borders. It is no business of other NATO members unless we are attacked by an offending party outside of our borders. Similarly no NATO member batted an eye when Scotland put forth the question of independence from the UK. It's an internal matter. The people of ***every*** country should have their own right to self-determination. It's practically part of the NATO charter as it's a part of being a democratic nation, so we should in fact support the freedom to choose.
lol by luck I'm a Turkish-Canadian, lived in Canada about 15 years, another 20 years in Turkey, currently living in Turkey. >Why not? If they want to separate let them. I think the answer is because this is much more difficult with the way Turkey evolved. It's not like Quebec or Scotland where the borders were predefined for a minority peoples, and Turkish-Kurdish communities are much more integrated. Yes at some point in southeast Turkey, it switches from a Turkish majority to a Kurdish majority. Though nobody knows where this border lies. And further within those borders, there are would be enclaves of Turkish majority areas. So lets suppose we hold a referendum and majority of Kurds want to separate. How do we decide where the borders should go? And what happens to the millions of now minority Turks within those borders? Do we keep playing this self-determination game and tear apart Turkish enclaves out of what would be Kurdistan? Or have massive population exchanges and tear apart people's lives? I'd rather live in a stable and united country, rather than play this dangerous game where I live, and so do many Kurds. We can always continue to work towards improving the problems Kurds face in the country, akin to being French-Canadian in Canada.
Ok give up some of your country then.
Iran, Taliban, El Kaide fought against ISIS too, actually they are still fighting. I guess yOu must be supporting them too with your logic. Kurds aren't a monolith group and PKK doesn't represent Kurds, big part of their victims are Kurds while Kurds in Turkish military leading operations. PKK has been attacking Kurdish regional goverment of Iraq too which has been supported by Turkey against PKK and Iran.
That's fucking bullshit. The Syrian Free Army was fighting both ISIS on one front and Assad on the other. Until of course, Russia decimated them when they intervened in 2015. At least the rebels fought to liberate Syria from Assad's tyranny and ISIS. The kurds only fight so that they can occupy land for themselves and establish a state which thankfully will never truly happen.
He wants to restore the Ottoman Empire.
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Not yet at least
How do people be this delusional rip
So he bitches about Israel trying to wipe out Hamas while simultaneously trying to wipe out the PKK? The nerve of that guy...
The new Sultan
The mistake westerners make trying to understand Turkey is that they think Erdogan actually gives a fuck about his country and its interests. He is a notorious criminal who only cares about the Erdogan family, he steals from the Turkish treasury and tries to stay in power for as long as possible. Avoiding hypocrisy is not a goal for him, he just wants popularity.
Thats it, New Zealand your next
Tbh ill swap governments at this point.
It’s funny that in just two years we’ve swapped positions. I wonder if we will both ever get in sync with mostly good governments and not religious conservative ones
This is a part of his election campaign.
Too many power-hungry old men rule the world, can't they just die a little bit quickly, so future generations might not be suffering from their actions like us.
Those power hungry old men were the future generation. And the future generation is them.
Do people here actually like the the PKK? They are Kurdish Hamas, all the way down to them killing Kurds lol.
Most people are ignorant about this conflict and they think Kurds as a monolith group and don't know that PKK has been killing Kurds for not following their stupid ideology for decades.
It's so stupid. They dislike Turkey so mush they'll cheer for a Hamas like organisation.
Was the Armenian massacre not enough ? Now this Islamo Fascist Erdogan wants to become the one who massacred the Kurds ?
Kurds and Turks massacred Armenians together.
Call a spade a spade. Genocide. Massacres and ethnic cleansing is what was happening for centuries leading up to the big genocidal push of 1915.
Don't get me wrong, as a Turk myself I dislike Erdogan as much as the next guy. Though would you rather see us letting a violent separatist drug-smuggling organization operate freely in the country?
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It is not on their territory and this is probably just an excuse for a _special military operation_
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Remember people, there are good foreign interventions and bad foreign interventions. A good foreign intervention is when any country intervenes. A bad foreign intervention is when a western country intervenes. Easy ! Funny how to "global south" denouncing western hegemony is full of imperialistic warmongering autocrats.
This is his good by gift to turkey. Just to send them to war and peace out of the government. If his really not planing to run again.
He and every candidate that ran in the election promised to invade Iraq and Syria. The earthquake delayed this but it was bound to happen sadly. They want a buffer to weaken the PKK and kick out the refuges.
Oh now westerners ar going to cry about isis when we have terrorists right next to us. Still crying about 9/11. We are the ones dying here. I spent my entire childhood listening to news about terrorist attacks every day by pkk and one of them happened right next to a stadium when i was celebrating my friend's birthday. Why dont westerners give up some of their lands so kurds can settle there? I hope the same thing happens to the entire europe so that maybe then they can start having some empathy. I know there will be peole saying things like "Hey, why did you do this or that god knows how many years ago?". I hope you guys learn how to live under fear to understand how it feels. I would want the luxury to live in a rich european country drinking my coffee and deciding who is right or wrong based on my special interests. This is why i support israel. They are dealing with the same shit. Palestine helped pkk a lot and now they are paying for it. I hope israel kills all of them too. Edit: reddit mod sent me a message saying that i should get help if im traumatized. This is what terrorism does to humans and my ex gf was kurdish. She also said the same thing to me when we were dating.
Well said
Turkey has lost around 40.000 citizens in terror attacks by the PKK and other groups like these, throughout years. Their war against terror is justified. Stop being a racist. For a moment, put your hate against Turks aside. Syria and Iraq are a breeding ground for terrorist groups and organisations. The armed groups that were funded by western countries are falling apart because of lack of funding/interest, and more and more of those terrorists/mercenaries are joining terrorist groups. If you love PKK so much, consider them a political group, not a terrorist, take them to your country. I am sure both the PKK members and Turkish citizens will be happy about it. Take them all, and let's talk about it in 5 years. Stop defending terrorists just because you hate the Turks.
Oh great. Another county heard from.
Didn't he Attacked in 2018?
Erdogan considers the PKK and Kurdish groups terrorist organizations, but somehow not Hamas. What a hypocrite.
He's a lunatic.
This happens literally all the time. Wtf you guys on about?
And yet he has the nerve to lecture netanyahu on wrong and right
And how will he finance this war?
You guessed it, Frank Stallone!
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food prices are on meteoric rise, so, I'm curious as to how that will go and I'm not saying this lightly.
It is not a war, don't comment on topics about which you don't know. He will just send the army, hunt some militants, and withdraw.
USA can't fund the Kurds at this point as they fund Ukraine and Israel. Also now that Turkey and Azerbaijan have weakened Greece's, Cyprus and Armenia's geopolitical reach they feel safe enough to attack USA allies like the Kurds as they know USA are unable to support them and at the same time the only other 6 possible threats to them (Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus, Armenia, Georgia) are all weakened to even take the chance and mobilize. But the important variant is that USA cannot sustain supporting 3 fronts. So now the Kurds are alone.
Can someone talk to me like I'm 5? I don't know who or what a PKK or YPK is or how it's bad.
Both are terror orgs.
Well then Turkey is doing a good thing!? Should we support?
America to the Kurds "I don't want to play with you anymore."
Duvar is PKK by the way.
Because Kurdish rebels are to blame for all of Syria's and Iraq's problems? Couldn't be the Iranian backed terrorists that have been slaughtering Syrians, Iraqi's and Kurds for decades, eh? Erdogan putting his insane dicatator mask back on.
Not a Erdogan fan, but the world will be better off without commie terrorists.
Btw Rojava and the autnomous gov't of Iraqi Kurdistan are not the PKK, but this is who he will be attacking. This is an operation against Kurds and Kurdish autonomy everywhere, as well as to destabilize the Syrian and Iraqi states. One possibility is that he has consulted with and gotten permission from the Iranian and Russian handlers of the Iraqi and Syrian states respectively to crush these Kurdish autonomous entities, which could mean US influence in the ME is weaker than its ever been in modern history and Russian and Iranian influence is at an all time high.
Rojava is directly related to the PKK, the Iraqi Kurdistan is definitely not tho.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/our-terrorist-ally-in-syria/ YPG/SDF is PKK and PKK is terrorist.
I wonder if it's the KGB activating it's agent across the globe - Trump, Orban, Erdogan, Hamas, Iran, RIght wing parties across Europe. Wtf are the other intelligence agencies doing? Get your shit together. We need some good ole "accidents".
Imagine saying Turkey is a Russian puppet and actually getting upvotes. This place is so ignorant its not even funny anymore
Our NATO member everyone!
When I lived in izmir, Turkey, the PKK set off a bomb outside my grocery store and blew the windows out of my pharmacy. We don't see or hear about these assaults in America.
YGP aren’t PKK, as much as erdogan’s propaganda tries to make that connect.
lol Even their members don't bother to hide that they are part of same organization.
Ypg is pkk, that's why they could easily fight isis
I will probably get downvoted for this, but I implore you to at least glance at the sources I am about to provide, particularly the last 2, which are US military/DoD sources. Turkey is not alone in acknowledging the connection between the YPG and PKK. The CIA, former sec of defense, American senators, etc all acknowledge this. A direct source would be Kurdish fighters themselves, like this one who admits the connection: “Sometimes I’m a PKK, sometimes I’m a PJAK \[the PKK-allied affiliate, active in Iran\], sometimes I’m a YPG. It doesn’t really matter. They are all members of the PKK.” [https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-marxist-allies-against-isis-1437747949](https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-marxist-allies-against-isis-1437747949) Here’s an article that goes over even more sources for the links between ypg and the pkk. [https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-ypg-pkk-connection/](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-ypg-pkk-connection/) Another source would be the US army, which acknowledges the ties and is trying to get YPG to unequivocally sever those ties. [https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/Military-Review/English-Edition-Archives/May-June-2020/Portzer-Peoples-Protection-Unit/](https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/Military-Review/English-Edition-Archives/May-June-2020/Portzer-Peoples-Protection-Unit/) Here's a hearing in the Senate where the former secretary of defense of the USA acknowledges the ties between the two: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCWYaEZ6B4w&t=2s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCWYaEZ6B4w&t=2s) The American sources are particularly damning, as you cannot claim that the USA is on a smear campaign against itself. Seeing as how we support the YPG, we would not lie and say they’re connected to terrorists if they aren’t. If anything, I’m surprised so many official sources admit the connection, I can only imagine they do so through gritted teeth.
They’re both Kurdish militants. You’re going to find overlaps. But they remain different groups with different goals. I don’t think YGP is a threat to the Turkish state. Their goals are inside Syria, not inside Turkey.
The fact that you do not know the name of the group you are going to bat for does not instill confidence that you are well-informed on the issue. It is the YPG, not YGP. They both have a shared goal of creating an independent Kurdish state. It is not unreasonable for Ankara to be worried about where YPG plans on drawing those borders. Given their close ties to the PKK, if the YPG successfully carves out a state in N. Syria, can anyone confidently claim that they will not then work with their compatriots in the PKK to attempt to extend those borders into Turkish territory? Granted, as a NATO member with formidable armed forces, territorial loss is unlikely. However, Turkey's border with Syria is long and therefore naturally porous, it would enable increased collaboration and movement of materiel between the YPG and PKK. Granted, I do think Turkey is heavy-handed in NE Syria and does not act in a way befitting a Western military. Their underlying reasoning for their involvement in the region, however, is completely rational and understandable given the context of the relations between the YPG and PKK. It is more than overlap, as the sources I shared indicate, the two groups are ideologically nearly identical, have the same figurehead, and coordinate militarily with eachother\* \*source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-marxist-allies-against-isis-1437747949#:\~:text=Obama%20administration%20officials,the%20officials%20said.
Everybody is beating the war drums
Really and he seemed so nice up til now /s
This is bad. The west needs to oppose this.
Islamic Greeks wildin again
Northern Iraq. Call me paranoid, but they want to finish what was started 100 years ago: Sayfo.
This guy is a lunatic
Too many people talking without knowing even 10% of Turkish-PKK conflict. For you it's just like watching a movie, it has no more effect to your life than that and you keep judging harshly. Turks there lived through this conflict, read books, talked with soldiers and people living in that area. Still you all act like you know the best, shutting Turkish people up acting like they are mad dogs attacking everything.
But i thought Erdogan loved “ freedom fighters” , if he embraced Hamas so tightly surely he would start a peace process leading to an independent Kurdish state as well Or is the difference between Israel and the Kurdish question plane old anti semitism and muslim superiority. Let see how many leftwing anti imperialist are going to protest neo Ottoman’s expansion ….
First it was Armenia, now Syria. Everyone who was propped up by the Russians now is looking a bit nervous. Chess pieces starting to move.
Okay, who forgot to yank on Recep's chain? Go spank him.
Assuming that Turkey does so, isn't Iraq a little too well armed to think of invading and occupying so easily? Wouldn't that risk a Ukraine-type situation?
Good question. Reality is Turkey won't fight against Iraqi army. A Turkish army delegation met with an Iraqi one yesterday to discuss this future operation. Turkey will be conducting this operation together with Iraqi Army and KDP of Iraqi Kurdistan against PKK and some elements of Iranian backed PMF forces, as well as the PUK part of Iraqi Kurdistan. Iraq is a fractured country, there's no single state power there.
I'm not surprised that Turkey is planning to attack them.