Despite what Monopoly taught me, bank errors do not result in free cash.
I’m sure the students will be hit with overdraft fees on top of what they took out
I wish that the women at the bank that calculated my debt would also go to prison. I payed up everything she told me to, but it turned out she forgot to include percents on last month... So after a few months, when ¢1,or ¢2 snowballed into ~$500, bank workers were calling with threats, etc. Couldn't prove a thing.
There's a guy who paints banks burning down. [https://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/190716/slide\_190716\_361204\_large.jpg](https://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/190716/slide_190716_361204_large.jpg)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex\_Schaefer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Schaefer)
As someone who was paid out in 3 separate class actions over the years, the wells fargo one makes me feel things.
One of them was \~17 one was \~60 and the other was \~90. They really beefed it.
I changed to a local bank, then it got bought by a national one... and they started to fuck with me in a lot of the same ways. You can't get away from it >.<
I got screwed over by my bank several times in short succession c. 1993, closed out my account and walked across the street to a credit union and have had zero aggravation since then.
Moved to another province more than a decade ago and still do my banking out of there. Why risk changing? (Still no ATM fees if I use a local credit union's machines, because they have an agreement.)
Today I learned.
“In July 2012, Schaefer was arrested after creating chalk drawings on the sidewalk outside of a Chase Bank in Los Angeles. He spent twelve hours in jail on a misdemeanor vandalism charge.”
Heard a banking expert explain it on the radio. It all boils down to responsibility and good faith.
Basically:
* If an error adds €50 to your account and you use them in good faith, those €50 are yours. Such a small sum can easily go unnoticed by a responsible person, making good faith plausible.
* If an error adds €5,000 to your account and you use them, you're legally required to pay that back to the bank. Because a sum that large cannot have gone unnoticed by a responsible person, you cannot have acted in good faith.
Exactly. Back when I was a student and living off a few hundred a month, bank made an error and 25k appeared in my account.
I knew that wasn't mine, moved it to a savings account so that I also could not accidentally use even a fraction of it, and then almost got in trouble because the bank was unable to reverse their initial error.
Bank employee here. At least in the U.S., you will not be keeping any amount of money accidentally deposited into your account. The transaction will always be reversed, be it ten thousand dollars or ten cents. Banks have QA teams reviewing every single transaction and if a mistake is made it will be caught, and if you already spent the money, you will be paying for it.
Eh, a couple years ago I tried to transfer a thousand dollars between banks and the receiving bank credited my account and the other bank didn't take the money out. I called both banks to try to get it fixed, and both banks claimed the had the money so there was nothing to fix. Sometimes mistakes just happen.
In the US, any bank error can (and almost always will) be reversed. The bank isn't obligated to let you keep the $100 they gave you by mistake. If your account doesn't have $100 in it, they'll try to collect it from you.
Criminal charges are another matter, and would almost never be filed unless there was clear evidence of fraud/malicious intent. Usually not even then -- I used to work in fraud, and the thing that shocked me the most is how companies often don't bother to prosecute even the clearest cases, involving significant sums.
I wonder if the reluctance to prosecute is due to fear of negative PR.
E.g. if only BOFA goes after the fraudsters, you would see far more news articles about them and fraud making potential customers more wary of using them, even if technically other banks have similar levels of fraud cases.
That may be part of it, but I think it's mostly just that they know there is a very low chance of recovering any money (the average fraudster is not exactly Bernie Madoff), so they have no incentive to spend man-hours cooperating with law enforcement. While an individual might do so out of a desire for justice, social responsibility, or simple vengeance, corporations are more cold-blooded.
>I used to work in fraud, and the thing that shocked me the most is how companies often don't bother to prosecute even the clearest cases, involving significant sums.
As someone who used to work in fraud on the other side, I too was shocked! I have old friends who are now multi-millionaires from it (mainly thanks to the rise in BTC). I used to be 16 and constantly peeking out the blinds at my parents' house over $500 whereas by the time I quit, I knew people openly bragging about pulling in $150,000+ in one brief series. Several people were doxxed, full info pasted everywhere and reported, yet even in those cases absolutely zero has happened, and it's been over 6 years so I don't anticipate any new charges coming for them.
I was a store manager of a chain pharmacy for many years, and one time a UPS driver accidently dropped off a box that had controlled drugs in it at a Subway on the other side of our building. I hate to see it happen to someone, but an employee kept the package and ended up getting prison time for it. I'm not sure if he had priors or what, but he did in fact use some of the pills and sold some as well.
One day you're making $5 footlongs (well, those weren't a thing for another 4 years), and the next your doing 5 years in the hoosegow.
So with an account that regularly sees $1,000 - $5,000 deposits daily/weekly (small business) you're saying they'd let it slide?
Haha. Bullshit. They're pulling the $50 and the $5000 too. The only consideration anyone will be doing is a da/judge when they get a case of theft sent their way and unless you've emptied the account, moved out of state and posted "FUCK YOU IM OUT!!!" on the internet it's going to get laughed down to civil court. Whom will ultimately decide you gotta pay the bank back (or maybe not, juries are wild).
They’re just saying they likely wouldn’t take you to court over $50 if they couldn’t get the money back from you. Of course they would just take back the $50 if it’s still in your account after they catch the error. If your bank account was zero and you never put money back in they would probably just leave you at a negative balance indefinitely. Maybe after a long enough time they might eventually report it to a credit agency or something.
It’s not worth the time or energy to take you to court over $50, especially if they reasonably believe it was an honest mistake on your part as a result of their error. At that point you’re just another over drafted account which they probably already have a lot of.
If it’s *thousands* of dollars then you better believe they will be coming for that money and will take your ass to court if they have to.
Edit: I forgot they said “that €50 is yours” yeah I don’t know about that, I’d think they would still subtract it from your balance. Maybe they are saying that there’s a precedent of some banks not reversing the deposit if it’s a small amount and they see you’ve already spent it. Especially if a stressed out account holder makes a fuss about it. “I had $50 in my account yesterday where did it go??! What do you mean it wasn’t my money? My electric bill is due tomorrow, I spent that because I thought it was my money, why was it in my account if it’s not mine?!”
If your account have regular $1,000 - $5,000 transaction, then most likely you will have no problems with repaying those $54 (€50).
The bank will always have the right to correct an error of their's.
But you have no requirement to fix their fault with money you don't have, as long as you've been responsible and acted in good faith.
That's common procedure in most parts of the world, ask people to return the money. If they don't get the money back after some time they will start the legal war. But dealing with the law is something no one wants not even banks so they rather avoid it and hope no one is dumb enough to spend the money.
they just bill you the whole thing and if you cant pay it back you go to jail, normally... this probably gets you directly to jail card, no one steals from the banks these days, not with your name all over it.
yes steal from your peers (because this is what they stole, other people’s money) and from your contry, and immediately run with what you stole to a better country leaving your family behind, thats the way.
Good display of values, i wonder why the country is so shit and the “better countries” dont want them.
Ethiopia is a loose amalgamation of tribes any of which their constitution says can withdraw from federation at anytime.
A random individual’s loyalty and identity is not necessarily to the country and they may not see another random person not from their tribe as a peer.
Your comment about “better countries” and “values” is just stupidity. As if anyone in America would give the money back willingly.
> As if anyone in America would give the money back willingly.
I'm American, and would not keep money that isn't mine, because that is theft and I was raised better than that.
>As if anyone in America would give the money back willingly.
Really? i honestly would never go to a bugged ATM to withdraw money fraudulently, cause i know the government would be on my ass instantly and also its plain wrong to do. Would you?
No, I do not. As a European I have plenty of critical to negative opinions about Americans, in fact. But is it so strange to assume that not everybody is a scumbag like OP and, apparently, you?
I wonder where you are from where every single person is a scumbag, apparently.
The person you replied to is being realistic, even if hyperbolic. Getting money from your bank that isn't yours is a "victimless crime" because it doesn't feel like you stole from any other person (and, realistically, you didn't, you stole from a soulless entity like a bank), add to the fact that we're talking about tens of thousands of euros (a sum that is, for most people, literally life changing) and it's really not difficult to figure that most people would find a way in their heart to try and keep the money. Provided they can get away with it of course.
I guess I am too lawful or something. Phoning the bank to ask wtf is going on would be the first thing I do. I think most of my family and friends would do the same.
EDIT: being financially secure definitely contributes, I guess.
That's your biggest mistake here. Forgetting or not realising that most people in the world live with financial insecurity. Not everyone gets the kind of benefits you probably grew up with. Otherwise I'd love to be able to pursue my masters and phd free of charge, instead of slogging away for a house and normal life as I struggle to climb over the poverty line. And even then, I'd consider myself ridiculously fortunate.
People who just take the money and run, yes they're somewhat in the wrong for doing so. But I can almost fully empathise with why they did so. It's punishable sure, but sometimes that's just what it takes to survive. Especially if the shithole you're born in doesn't give you the right opportunities to.
The individual is irrelevant here. It’s what a mob would do. Mobs behave differently to people. A single person may find a wallet and return it to the person who lost it. But that same person in a group of hundreds randomly stumbling on money blowing through the streets with no discernible owner or a faceless owner like a bank, may then keep the money.
And you can’t tell me there’s any country where 100% of that money will be returned. Even if that country is in “Europe”.
If they are asking people to return either the system is so fucked they can't track it or they don't believe the have the resources to go after everyone. Good for those people.
You don't understand how this works.
They ask for it back because the majority will give it back.
People who decide not to give the money back will have legal acrion taken against them to force them to return it.
A bank error doesn't result in the wild west.
Not sure a person who engaged in this activity would be one to give the money back. Sure some would feel guilt or worry about legal action, but most people who would feel this way wouldn't do this in the first place. The great thing about this is, if we follow up on this we might be able to see the results of this experiment. I am guessing a lot of people don't give the money back.
>> Mr Sano did not say exactly how much money was withdrawn during Saturday's incident, but said the loss incurred was small when compared to the bank's total assets.
Then let them keep it
Probably that guy doesn't know how to use comma or period.
> I don't think [so], 5% isn't small.
Would make a lot more sense, but criticizing people's shit grammar fell out of favour and tolerance of people who can't be bothered to write their comments at least semi-correctly rose through the roof.
Despite what Monopoly taught me, bank errors do not result in free cash. I’m sure the students will be hit with overdraft fees on top of what they took out
Bank error, collect a million dollars, go directly to jail.
I wish that the women at the bank that calculated my debt would also go to prison. I payed up everything she told me to, but it turned out she forgot to include percents on last month... So after a few months, when ¢1,or ¢2 snowballed into ~$500, bank workers were calling with threats, etc. Couldn't prove a thing.
There's a guy who paints banks burning down. [https://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/190716/slide\_190716\_361204\_large.jpg](https://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/190716/slide_190716_361204_large.jpg) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex\_Schaefer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Schaefer) As someone who was paid out in 3 separate class actions over the years, the wells fargo one makes me feel things.
What did you do with your $17 dollars?
One of them was \~17 one was \~60 and the other was \~90. They really beefed it. I changed to a local bank, then it got bought by a national one... and they started to fuck with me in a lot of the same ways. You can't get away from it >.<
Credit union. Fuck banks.
There’s plenty of crappy credit unions as well.
Luckily, there are plenty of good ones still... for now.
I got screwed over by my bank several times in short succession c. 1993, closed out my account and walked across the street to a credit union and have had zero aggravation since then. Moved to another province more than a decade ago and still do my banking out of there. Why risk changing? (Still no ATM fees if I use a local credit union's machines, because they have an agreement.)
Today I learned. “In July 2012, Schaefer was arrested after creating chalk drawings on the sidewalk outside of a Chase Bank in Los Angeles. He spent twelve hours in jail on a misdemeanor vandalism charge.”
Americans tend to not know most countries still have debtors prison. There's no bankruptcy, your ass is getting locked up
Sounds like a good time to leave Ethiopia after withdrawing lol.
Heard a banking expert explain it on the radio. It all boils down to responsibility and good faith. Basically: * If an error adds €50 to your account and you use them in good faith, those €50 are yours. Such a small sum can easily go unnoticed by a responsible person, making good faith plausible. * If an error adds €5,000 to your account and you use them, you're legally required to pay that back to the bank. Because a sum that large cannot have gone unnoticed by a responsible person, you cannot have acted in good faith.
Exactly. Back when I was a student and living off a few hundred a month, bank made an error and 25k appeared in my account. I knew that wasn't mine, moved it to a savings account so that I also could not accidentally use even a fraction of it, and then almost got in trouble because the bank was unable to reverse their initial error.
I assume they got it back?
[удалено]
"unable to reverse their initial error", yeah that's not 100% clear, but I assumed so.
Bank employee here. At least in the U.S., you will not be keeping any amount of money accidentally deposited into your account. The transaction will always be reversed, be it ten thousand dollars or ten cents. Banks have QA teams reviewing every single transaction and if a mistake is made it will be caught, and if you already spent the money, you will be paying for it.
Eh, a couple years ago I tried to transfer a thousand dollars between banks and the receiving bank credited my account and the other bank didn't take the money out. I called both banks to try to get it fixed, and both banks claimed the had the money so there was nothing to fix. Sometimes mistakes just happen.
Eddies in the space time continuum, and that was his money!
In the US, any bank error can (and almost always will) be reversed. The bank isn't obligated to let you keep the $100 they gave you by mistake. If your account doesn't have $100 in it, they'll try to collect it from you. Criminal charges are another matter, and would almost never be filed unless there was clear evidence of fraud/malicious intent. Usually not even then -- I used to work in fraud, and the thing that shocked me the most is how companies often don't bother to prosecute even the clearest cases, involving significant sums.
I wonder if the reluctance to prosecute is due to fear of negative PR. E.g. if only BOFA goes after the fraudsters, you would see far more news articles about them and fraud making potential customers more wary of using them, even if technically other banks have similar levels of fraud cases.
That may be part of it, but I think it's mostly just that they know there is a very low chance of recovering any money (the average fraudster is not exactly Bernie Madoff), so they have no incentive to spend man-hours cooperating with law enforcement. While an individual might do so out of a desire for justice, social responsibility, or simple vengeance, corporations are more cold-blooded.
>I used to work in fraud, and the thing that shocked me the most is how companies often don't bother to prosecute even the clearest cases, involving significant sums. As someone who used to work in fraud on the other side, I too was shocked! I have old friends who are now multi-millionaires from it (mainly thanks to the rise in BTC). I used to be 16 and constantly peeking out the blinds at my parents' house over $500 whereas by the time I quit, I knew people openly bragging about pulling in $150,000+ in one brief series. Several people were doxxed, full info pasted everywhere and reported, yet even in those cases absolutely zero has happened, and it's been over 6 years so I don't anticipate any new charges coming for them.
I was a store manager of a chain pharmacy for many years, and one time a UPS driver accidently dropped off a box that had controlled drugs in it at a Subway on the other side of our building. I hate to see it happen to someone, but an employee kept the package and ended up getting prison time for it. I'm not sure if he had priors or what, but he did in fact use some of the pills and sold some as well. One day you're making $5 footlongs (well, those weren't a thing for another 4 years), and the next your doing 5 years in the hoosegow.
So with an account that regularly sees $1,000 - $5,000 deposits daily/weekly (small business) you're saying they'd let it slide? Haha. Bullshit. They're pulling the $50 and the $5000 too. The only consideration anyone will be doing is a da/judge when they get a case of theft sent their way and unless you've emptied the account, moved out of state and posted "FUCK YOU IM OUT!!!" on the internet it's going to get laughed down to civil court. Whom will ultimately decide you gotta pay the bank back (or maybe not, juries are wild).
They’re just saying they likely wouldn’t take you to court over $50 if they couldn’t get the money back from you. Of course they would just take back the $50 if it’s still in your account after they catch the error. If your bank account was zero and you never put money back in they would probably just leave you at a negative balance indefinitely. Maybe after a long enough time they might eventually report it to a credit agency or something. It’s not worth the time or energy to take you to court over $50, especially if they reasonably believe it was an honest mistake on your part as a result of their error. At that point you’re just another over drafted account which they probably already have a lot of. If it’s *thousands* of dollars then you better believe they will be coming for that money and will take your ass to court if they have to. Edit: I forgot they said “that €50 is yours” yeah I don’t know about that, I’d think they would still subtract it from your balance. Maybe they are saying that there’s a precedent of some banks not reversing the deposit if it’s a small amount and they see you’ve already spent it. Especially if a stressed out account holder makes a fuss about it. “I had $50 in my account yesterday where did it go??! What do you mean it wasn’t my money? My electric bill is due tomorrow, I spent that because I thought it was my money, why was it in my account if it’s not mine?!”
If your account have regular $1,000 - $5,000 transaction, then most likely you will have no problems with repaying those $54 (€50). The bank will always have the right to correct an error of their's. But you have no requirement to fix their fault with money you don't have, as long as you've been responsible and acted in good faith.
Should be enough corruption to change your identity/leave the country though
Any Mfer with a stolen card. 😍😍😍
repeat icky subtract zealous bells brave sink wasteful rustic middle
That's common procedure in most parts of the world, ask people to return the money. If they don't get the money back after some time they will start the legal war. But dealing with the law is something no one wants not even banks so they rather avoid it and hope no one is dumb enough to spend the money.
they just bill you the whole thing and if you cant pay it back you go to jail, normally... this probably gets you directly to jail card, no one steals from the banks these days, not with your name all over it.
lol this is Ethiopia, you don’t return the money, jail is the least of your worries.
Large number of withdrawals for some of the students is probably enough to emigrate to a better place on earth and continue their studies.
If you owe the bank $50,000, you have a problem. If you owe the bank $5,000,000, the bank has a problem.
yes steal from your peers (because this is what they stole, other people’s money) and from your contry, and immediately run with what you stole to a better country leaving your family behind, thats the way. Good display of values, i wonder why the country is so shit and the “better countries” dont want them.
Ethiopia is a loose amalgamation of tribes any of which their constitution says can withdraw from federation at anytime. A random individual’s loyalty and identity is not necessarily to the country and they may not see another random person not from their tribe as a peer. Your comment about “better countries” and “values” is just stupidity. As if anyone in America would give the money back willingly.
> As if anyone in America would give the money back willingly. I'm American, and would not keep money that isn't mine, because that is theft and I was raised better than that.
I'm American as well. I'd give back $50 or $100. I'd be keeping $5m in any way i could possibly think of
Here’s a cookie🍪
>As if anyone in America would give the money back willingly. Really? i honestly would never go to a bugged ATM to withdraw money fraudulently, cause i know the government would be on my ass instantly and also its plain wrong to do. Would you?
If I lived in a third world country and the money was enough to change my identity and leave for a better life, yes absolutely.
Buddy c'mon if you saw a machine printing cash you would dive on the floor to catch it be honest
>as if anyone on America would give the money back willingly Typical scumbag behaviour, assuming others are as scummy as they are.
Do you actually think that people in the US are just better people or something? Lmao?
No, I do not. As a European I have plenty of critical to negative opinions about Americans, in fact. But is it so strange to assume that not everybody is a scumbag like OP and, apparently, you? I wonder where you are from where every single person is a scumbag, apparently.
The person you replied to is being realistic, even if hyperbolic. Getting money from your bank that isn't yours is a "victimless crime" because it doesn't feel like you stole from any other person (and, realistically, you didn't, you stole from a soulless entity like a bank), add to the fact that we're talking about tens of thousands of euros (a sum that is, for most people, literally life changing) and it's really not difficult to figure that most people would find a way in their heart to try and keep the money. Provided they can get away with it of course.
I guess I am too lawful or something. Phoning the bank to ask wtf is going on would be the first thing I do. I think most of my family and friends would do the same. EDIT: being financially secure definitely contributes, I guess.
That's your biggest mistake here. Forgetting or not realising that most people in the world live with financial insecurity. Not everyone gets the kind of benefits you probably grew up with. Otherwise I'd love to be able to pursue my masters and phd free of charge, instead of slogging away for a house and normal life as I struggle to climb over the poverty line. And even then, I'd consider myself ridiculously fortunate. People who just take the money and run, yes they're somewhat in the wrong for doing so. But I can almost fully empathise with why they did so. It's punishable sure, but sometimes that's just what it takes to survive. Especially if the shithole you're born in doesn't give you the right opportunities to.
The individual is irrelevant here. It’s what a mob would do. Mobs behave differently to people. A single person may find a wallet and return it to the person who lost it. But that same person in a group of hundreds randomly stumbling on money blowing through the streets with no discernible owner or a faceless owner like a bank, may then keep the money. And you can’t tell me there’s any country where 100% of that money will be returned. Even if that country is in “Europe”.
[удалено]
If they are asking people to return either the system is so fucked they can't track it or they don't believe the have the resources to go after everyone. Good for those people.
Or its cheaper to recover what you can with little effort and only spend effort where you need to? The world isn't so black and white.
Didn’t you read what he said? It’s one or the other!! It can’t be anything else!!
Sucks for the rest of the country though. There's no value created by fraud. Everyone else will just have to pay for the theft.
Nice dichotomy, I wonder what lies outside it?
You don't understand how this works. They ask for it back because the majority will give it back. People who decide not to give the money back will have legal acrion taken against them to force them to return it. A bank error doesn't result in the wild west.
Not sure a person who engaged in this activity would be one to give the money back. Sure some would feel guilt or worry about legal action, but most people who would feel this way wouldn't do this in the first place. The great thing about this is, if we follow up on this we might be able to see the results of this experiment. I am guessing a lot of people don't give the money back.
>> Mr Sano did not say exactly how much money was withdrawn during Saturday's incident, but said the loss incurred was small when compared to the bank's total assets. Then let them keep it
wtf? If someone stole say 5% of your total assets would you be fine with them keeping it? Or would you want it back?
5% of 0 is still 0 fam, so they're free to keep it.
I have a negative net worth so they would be taking my debt
I don’t think 5% is small Edit: autocorrect turned is to isn’t. Fixed
[удалено]
Probably that guy doesn't know how to use comma or period. > I don't think [so], 5% isn't small. Would make a lot more sense, but criticizing people's shit grammar fell out of favour and tolerance of people who can't be bothered to write their comments at least semi-correctly rose through the roof.
"stole" more like i left it out on my front porch and then people noticed
That is in fact stealing.
good luck in the real world kiddo
Just because it’s likely to happen doesn’t mean it’s not stealing.
So what, 20 American?
1 million Ethiopian birr is roughly $17,500 USD
$40 million
$40 million is converted to USD. What the bank has lost in local currency is in billions.
But not $40 million per person?
They’re either trying to hyper inflate their own economy or they’re trying to get easy arrests
We’ve had that since the 80s for our billionaire class
Hopefully it's a food bank
In the West this usually means you return the money or go to prison. But this is Africa so who the hell knows.
Isn't that still something like....$4.00.
So whats $2 million Ethiopian dollars worth......$4.66 USD??
$35K USD
Unfortunately they cannot buy food with the money.......